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Racism and the NBA

I am willing to admit that I am probably the last person who should bring up this subject.  I hope to bring about a discussion and see if we can create some good from it.  The subject of race and the NBA has been in my mind ever since I watched Black Magic.  There is probably someone more qualified to start this discussion, but I do not know who to ask to do so.

This afternoon, I listened to Stephen A. Smith's podcast with the head coach of the New Orleans Hornets, Byron Scott.  Smith was especially enamored with the fact that Scott has an all black staff.  While discussing that subject, Scott said, "I had always told myself when I got that type of power, that I would hire an all black staff, because they would be able to relate, and they would all be former basketball players."

When I heard the statement, I thought nothing of it, then I thought, "Wow, that statement is a lawsuit waiting to happen."  At the end of the conversation, Smith gave Scott an opportunity to clarify his statement before they received a bunch of calls.  Scott then said "I got the best four or five guys that I could get, to make me the best basketball coach and make us a better team.  Now they all happen to be black.  It's not like I didn't do any interviewing of a white assistants."  Scott went on to elaborate and say, "We all hear this... obviously we're not racist and we hear this from white people but some of my best friends are black.  You know, it's the same thing; I got friends in the NBA, black, white all colors, and it really didn't matter.  It was a matter of what I felt more comfortable with, and the people that I felt I could surround myself with, to be a better basketball coach and make us a better basketball team."

I honestly do not feel that Scott did anything wrong, besides admitting on tape that he wanted to hire an all black staff.  He should have said it was a coincidence that they are all black.

I also read an article by LZ Granderson the other day entitled, Who says white men can't jump?  It is a good read and I recommend it whole heartedly.  I want to focus on this paragraph and ask everyone what they thought.

Alas, only white players can be compared to white players and blacks to black. If we started comparing athletes based on quaint little qualities such as talent and skill level instead of incidental ones like skin color and ethnicity, then we might actually be forced to stop and think.

A lot of people have fallen into the trap of comparing white people to white people, black people to black people, and to a smaller extent, foreign players to foreign players.  Why do you think so many people take race into account, when they compare NBA players?  And with that in mind, how do we create change, so that players are compared by their skills and talent, and not the color or their skin?

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Lotta really interesting issues...
... that you bring up.

I try to make a point of comparing white guys to black guys and vice versa.  I hate it when every Euro gets compared to Dirk or Manu, even when they have very different games.

Scott's comments are interesting.  It makes sense to want guys who can relate to players (and being an ex-player helps), but their color shouldn't matter.

There is racism in sports (from multiple directions), which isn't surprising given that there is racism everywhere in our culture, we just aren't always aware of it.

by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 12:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

i can understand
comparing foreign players to foreign players, especially in terms of drafting them, just because its hard to gauge the level of competition in basketball leagues outside of the US. But as far as the comparing white and black US basketball players to each other, commentators are getting better and most people get their views from these commentators, when inevitable comparisons like John Stockton and Chris Paul become more apparent, i think commentators will highlight these comparisons and viewers will follow.
TheOdenator

by TheOdenator on Apr 8, 2008 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Therein Lies the Rub
I had to reread what I wrote over and over again to make sure I did not write anything that could be misconstrued.   I think with this subject, it is bound to happen.  That is why I tried to narrow it down to just the comparison of players.  I heard someone else say it, but I agree, that Tyler Hansbrough will be the next Dennis Rodman, without the mental problems.  Unfortunately people want to compare him to Mark Madsen because he is white.
I'm tominhawaii and I approved this message.

by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 12:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think...
... there is evidence that black people are better at certain sports, such as basketball and track and field, than white people even when you adjust for the number of people playing the sports.  This doesn't mean white people, or Latino people, or Asian people can't play them, just that there are a disproportionate number of black people who excel at them.

I recommend reading the book "Taboo," which is subtitled "Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It."  It deals with a lot of the challenging issues Tom has brought up.

by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry Tom
The commenter you were having a discussion with (a borderline uncomfortable discussion, at that, through no fault of your own) was a banned person trying to sneak back in.  I erased his comments and with them went your responses.  Unfortunately that's how the thread editing works with the system we use at this site.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 12:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

However,
I'm game to get the discussion going again.

I like your point about athletes only being compared to others of similar origin...unless, like Jason Williams, they break into the stereotypical realm of another origin and receive a semi-appreciative, yet racially-slanted, nickname.  I had never thought of it explicitly before but you really have a point there.

Coach Scott is free to hire anyone he wishes for just about any reason he wishes, as is the prerogative of any head coach.  I suspect we've had enough caucasian coaches hired over similarly qualified African-American coaches in ALL sports over the course of the last 30 years that it doesn't bother me when it works the other way sometime.  If a white coach can say, "I know these guys are all qualified but I'm just more comfortable with the people I know" then why can't a black coach say that?  Any coach of any race who hires exclusively because of race without regard to competence will eventually fall victim to his staff's weakness and won't be a coach that long.  If that doesn't happen--meaning the guys were at least semi-competent--why should race enter into it?  Intentions or not, who's to say that a guy was hired because of race and just happened to be competent or a guy was hired because he was competent and just happened to be of a certain race?  Either way, it doesn't matter unless or until you can show there's intentional organizational bias from a team or a league.  I seriously doubt that can be argued in this case, even if you just look at the Hornets.  How many other caucasians are on the team's staff?  How many have been coaches in the past and how many will there be in the future?  There just don't happen to be any on the coaching roster at this particular moment in time.  That doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm With You
I agree about Coach Scott.  He just made the mistake in his first statement by saying he intended to hire his staff based on race and if a white coach didn't get that job, he could make a big deal about the situation.  I am sure Scott would have hired a white coach if he met all of the requirements and meshed good with the coaching staff.  Just imagine he outrage if Scott said, "I wanted to hire an all white staff."  He would take heat from everyone.  He could have just said he wanted to hire all formers NBA players and I would not have noticed and Smith would not have asked him to clarify.  
I'm tominhawaii and I approved this message.

by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

At the same time
Scott and Smith could have been intentionally calling attention to the fact that this has been happening for years the other direction.  Nobody was really "racist" per se.  People just hired who they knew and the guys they knew best were white.  Maybe part of the message was, "That works two ways."

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 1:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah
I had a comment in my diary that upon reflection I thought it was nice to see the hiring based on race come full circle and then took it out to avoid making light of a serious topic.  
I'm tominhawaii and I approved this message.

by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That idea
could make people re-examine their practices I suppose.  If someone said, "Hey, that's not fair!" Smith and Scott probably would consider that a step forward.  I bet they'd be willing to abandon the idea completely if they perceived everyone else were too.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

abandon the idea
great suggestion.. nothing makes this topic relevent without someone to dredge it all up again... sigh.. but it happens and happens and happens, I guess the only thing to do is continue to comment on its undertones.... that being said ---- yea, right.
Whether you like it, or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today.-- Ric Flair

by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Problem
I knew it was a touchy subject and that's why I was hesitant to post this diary.  I just didn't get much out of the ESPN comments.  I tried to narrow the discussion to player comparisons, to try to keep the thread from getting out of line.

My comment was that I see Tyler Hansbrough as more of a Dennis Rodman, without the mental problems, but he is commonly compared to Mark Madsen.  I heard the Rodman/Hansbrough comparison somewhere else but I cannot remember who said it.  

The sad thing is that this is a subject that needs discussed but it is normally discussed by the wrong people or for the wrong reasons.  Maybe I should stick with silly diaries.  I imagine people are hesitant to say anything to avoid their message being misconstrued.  

I'm tominhawaii and I approved this message.

by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not at all!
It's a very good subject and a very good diary.  We have had many such thoughtful discussions here over things like religion + sports and politics + sports.  Race + sports fits too.  You just caught a fish that had to be thrown back, that's all.  I'm sure there will be many more who want to chime in.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

touchy subject
I really find you take alot of us for granted... how long ago was it you diaried up a Darius Miles suicide suggestion?

I havent been here that long, but from what I have seen borderline topics are your specialty.

Whether you like it, or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today.-- Ric Flair

by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK
I was not going to reply because this is not on the topic of the diary.  Even though I joke almost constantly, I do have a mind, and have the capacity for serious thoughts.  I did not write this diary on a whim.  I referenced three recent sources on the subject, and I did not make light of the subject at hand.  I think it is a subject that needs to be discussed and you are free to disagree with me.  

If the opportunity presents itself, I would like to discuss a variety of touchy subjects that apply to either the NBA or the Trail Blazers.  I take no one for granted, have the ability to make light of any situation, and reserve the right to do so.  I try not to offend anyone and realize that I probably do offend people.  I mean no disrespect and they are free to skip over my comments or diaries.  Not to mention, there are plenty of checks and balances to keep me in line.

I'm tominhawaii and I approved this message.

by tominhawaii on Apr 9, 2008 3:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Regarding your last paragraph
  1. There are no touchy subjects, just touchy people.  (I actually stumbled onto a serious point here, but I'll get over it.)

  2. You can take me for granted anytime.  That's what friends are for.  Of course, I'm really your enemy and plotting your downfall, but I've got you convinced that I'm a friend, so take me for granted.  Please.

  3. I'm too arrogant to be offended.  (At least, I have to keep up my persona, so I can't let myself be offended, or it would undermine my eventual world domination.)

  4. You can't disrespect me, because it is such condescension on my part to post on your diary that disrespect can't even come into it.

  5. I define "checks and balances".  (Ask amlmart1, he says so.)  Until Dave bans me.

There do seem to be people who find value in discussing this.  Even if Tom was the one who started it.

In medieval times, the court jester/fool was usually the sharpest person around.  He could say things that no one else could say, and many kings found it useful to find out what people were thinking about them by hearing it from the jester.  No one else would have dared, it would have cost them their head -- yet a king could learn valuable lessons about himself and the way he was ruling from the jester, and the way his courtiers responded to things the jester said.

Just because Tom likes to GOOF around (for a guy who claims to have become a fan after the lottery last year, he knows an awful lot about Blazer history) does not disqualify him from tackling serious subjects seriously.  Like a good jester of old, he appears to usually know how far he can go without getting his head chopped off.

I'm frequently right, but always certain

by jscot on Apr 9, 2008 5:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any person ruling a country,
or the World, is a marionette of other one. We, the people who rule the rulers, don´t usualy talk about it. But Jscot is the marionette I like most and I can´t pass without remind you that you must obey and worship him.

by amlmart1 on Apr 9, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
I'm frequently right, but always certain

by jscot on Apr 9, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great diary
If Scott were white and said he wanted an all white staff, even if he clarified later, he would have been crucified.  Does that mean he was wrong?

Is this racism?  I suppose it depends on how you define racism.

I think we have to come to terms with the fact that a lot of what goes under the label "racism" is really "culturalism".  I've had some good friends down through the years who would probably not feel as comfortable with hiring me as they would with many black people.  

But it had nothing to do with my skin color.  It had to do with cultural differences.  We listened to different music, had different accents, drove different cars, etc.  And we respected and liked each other, and if I happened to be perfect for the job, they would have hired me.  But all other things being equal, they would have been more comfortable hiring someone with whom they had more mutual friends, life experiences, etc.

That's not racism, and shouldn't be labeled as such, whether it is white people or black people doing the hiring.

Should that be a factor?  Well, I think you miss an opportunity to broaden your horizons, and to increase your opportunities to relate to a broader range of players (if we are talking about a coaching staff).  So I think it is unwise, a mistake.  It certainly isn't going to encourage white players to want to play for your team, or white customers to come to your store, or whatever, if all of your employees are black.  

But I don't think it is of itself morally wrong, or racist.  It can be done with racist motivations, of course, but it is wrong to assume (whether whites or blacks are doing it) that those are the motivations.

I'm frequently right, but always certain

by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 1:39 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hiring someone...
based on cultural similarities... let me rephrase...  hiring an entire staff based on cultural similarities is akin, I think, to surrounding yourself with "yes men".

In the short term, this practice might appear to strengthen your position and will certainly fill you with warm fuzzies but long term it is a recipe for disaster.

I believe very strongly that you cannot have long term success without diversification.  

I love a good cup of hot chocolate.  But add a shot of vanilla or a pinch of cayenne to a cup of hot chocolate and just tell me your drinking experience isn't enhanced.  Go ahead, just tell me that.

by ken on Apr 8, 2008 4:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
Like I said, it's unwise.  I suppose it depends on how much cultural diversity you have in your community.  If you run a store in some towns in Utah where everyone is Mormon, I don't suppose it is going to hurt you too much if none of your employees are non-Mormon.

But I think it would be hard to argue that it is immoral.

I'm frequently right, but always certain

by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 4:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.
Too much is made of diversification.  People have fallen in love with the concept and credit it with all sorts of magical powers.  Let's not forget it has the same root as divided and divisive.

I'm not saying that having a variety of talent, skill sets, opinions and backgrounds is a bad thing.  In fact it's one of the things that I believe makes this nation the greatest place on earth to live.  But it is not a be all end all.  

Take your example of hot chocolate.  For some people that shot of vanilla, cinnamon or cayenne might make the drink better.  But for many, plain old fashioned hot chocolate works just fine.  It's certainly been around long enough.  I'm betting if you started a cocoa stand and offered only hot chocolate with other flavors added and no plain cocoa, you'd find your customer base to be limited, as far more people drink it plain than with cayenne.

An even better example may be the one tom used to start this discussion.  Byron Scott certainly does not seem to be suffering from surrounding himself with liked minded assistants.  (Of course we make an assumption here that his assistants all think like him because they are black.  I'd argue that's not the case.)  When everybody is on board, buying into the same goal and the plan to reach it, one's chances for success improve.  Bringing together a group that has different approaches to accomplishing the same task has as much chance of blowing up as succeeding, unless there is a strong hand at the helm.  

The failure of those in love with multiculturalism and diversification is that they see these as a good thing all by themselves, when in truth they are only a strength when they are tied together by  overlying, uniting principles that everyone believes in.  

by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think this discussion presupposes
an overlying, uniting principle that everyone believes in.  You wouldn't want to hire assistant coaches that don't have similar goals and philosophies.

But when there is that overlying, uniting principle, diversity is certainly a strength.

Byron Scott risks, by his statements and hiring, alienating any white free agent he might want to bring to his team.  He also risks alienating part of the fan base.

I'll use another example.  We have, in our church, people from at least six different nations.  The result is that people from any nation are more likely to feel welcome because they know it is not a xenophobic church.  That diversity is a strength -- but only because we have that uniting principle you mentioned.  But as long as that uniting principle is there, diversity is a definite plus.

I'm frequently right, but always certain

by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, yeah, Mr. Latin...
>> Too much is made of diversification.  People have fallen in love with the concept and credit it with all sorts of magical powers.  Let's not forget it has the same root as divided and divisive.

Diversity also comes from the same root as DIVIDEND.

Using root origins of words to "make" a subjective point is fallacious.

t

"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08

by timbo on Apr 8, 2008 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dividends are bad, too
Dividends occur when companies divide profit among shareholders.

When I rule the world, in my magnanimity I will relieve them of this burdensome task.

I'm frequently right, but always certain

by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dividends also spread wealth to participants...
...................................................... FANS like to receive dividends from their team's play.
"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08

by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to reply,
but why bother when I have jscot doing it so well.

by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
you touch on a really interesting point.  Racial differences are very real.  We try to pretend that  we can or do live in a colorblind society where it does not matter what color you are just whether or not you are capable, and that isn't true.  In basketball the fact is that most players are African American and a coach may desire more African American's on his staff because they can relate better to those players.  I see nothing wrong with that, even if it is racially or culturally based.  White and black are not interchangeable in this case a white person may not be able to relate to players on the same level as an African American.  You can wish this wasn't true all you want, but it is unfortunately a reality.

by CTBlazerfan on Apr 8, 2008 5:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if racism isn't again becoming more
prevalent in the US as it is being forced kicking and screaming into globalization? The margins seem to be more fuzzy now. I watched a documentary a couple of weeks ago called "Lost Boys of Sudan", which I recommend. These displaced Sudanese boys are basically dropped off in various US cities by ignorant, well meaning church groups and left to fend for themselves. One of the boys complains that he feels especially discriminated against by black Americans.

by annthefan on Apr 8, 2008 1:45 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Oops.
One of the boys complains that he feels especially discriminated against by black Americans, because he is so much darker than they are.

by annthefan on Apr 8, 2008 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My wife
is reading "What is the What" by Eggers and it seems to be dealing with issues raised in that documentary.  You might find it interesting if you haven't seen it (and if you don't hate Eggers).

by fatwansaboni on Apr 8, 2008 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good diary topic, Tom
I don't know if I'd call it "taking race into account" when comparing NBA players because that implies that it's a conscious decision to do so. I feel like more than anything, it's mental laziness -- not being willing to move past physical appearance as an initial criteria for comparing players. If you just compare white and foreign players within their own ethnic groups, that cuts down by 90% the amount of players you have to sort through to find a comparison.

At the risk of delving into psychobabble, I also think that stereotypes and confirmation bias play a role. In my opinion, the popular thinking says that black players are flashy, athletic dunkers; white players are fundamentally sound, athletically limited scrappers; and foreign players are all-offense, no-defense softies. Seeing a white/black/foreign player triggers that stereotype pathway and impedes logical cross-stereotype connections: for example, Tyler Hansbrough gets compared to Mark Madsen and not Paul Millsap, which I think is a much more apt comparison. Confirmation bias comes into play to mentally eliminate players that would disprove the universality of those stereotypes -- Tim Duncan is probably the least athletic of the NBA's superstars but perhaps the most fundamentally sound, for one example, and Eduardo Najera and Jorge Garbajosa are both hard-nosed defensive players.

I edit for my school's newspaper and wrote a column about fans' racism with regards to the NBA that generated some interesting feedback. For those who are interested, it's here.

http://media.www.tuftsdaily.com/media/storage/paper856/news/2007/04/24/Sports/Matt-Mertens.Freelance r-2876403.shtml

by BlazersOrBust on Apr 8, 2008 2:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

nice article
good work.
For more pictures and videos, check out the BlazersEdge Facebook group and www.youtube.com/blazersedgeben

by Ben. on Apr 8, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

excellent article
Is there any way dave (or ben) could bring it on the front page?
TheOdenator

by TheOdenator on Apr 8, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sense and sensibility
Different answer for different time, person, place, society, ....

All kind of racism must be fought, but individual racism is many times very complex and difficult to discover it and to judge it. Prejudice is a primitive intelligence, very economic in terms of effort. Poor intelligence but intelligence. And human always try to be inteligent even when doing so they only become more stupid.

by amlmart1 on Apr 8, 2008 4:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I like that we break the barriers on this site.
"A lot of people have fallen into the trap of comparing white people to white people, black people to black people, and to a smaller extent, foreign players to foreign players."

We compare Jarrett Jack and Sergio Rodriguez constantly here. Maybe 'compare' is a little too friendly of a term for what happens, but it think it still fits well enough to use it.

Excellent post Mr. inHawaii, and very thought provoking responses from the rest of you.

"It just showed once again that half the world doesn't know how the other three quarters live." -P.G. Wodehouse

by T Darkstar on Apr 8, 2008 5:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

turn around the quote...
If you read these quotes, or heard them from a white coach on the TV or radio, would you feel the same way as you did after reading Scott's comments? I have "edited" the quotes for you to read them as if that were the case, take a read and then I have more to say after...

"I had always told myself when I got that type of power, that I would hire an all white staff, because they would be able to relate, and they would all be former basketball players."

"I got the best four or five guys that I could get, to make me the best basketball coach and make us a better team.  Now they all happen to be white.  It's not like I didn't do any interviewing of a black assistants."  

 "We all hear this... obviously we're not racist and we hear this from black people but some of my best friends are white.  You know, it's the same thing; I got friends in the NBA, black, white all colors, and it really didn't matter.  It was a matter of what I felt more comfortable with, and the people that I felt I could surround myself with, to be a better basketball coach and make us a better basketball team."

Reverse racisim is very real in the United States. A combination of the white majority feeling guilty for their ancestors mistakes, and a black community which believes they can not be racist because they are black.  Racisim is not hatred of whites towards blacks, it does not know color lines, and there are just as many racisits and bigots that are black, hispanic, and asian, as their are who are white.

I don't like Scott's comments, because they reinforce America's messed up ideals that a Black man is free from any questions when it comes to racisim. Just like our Presidential race, where Sen. Obama is not asked the same questions as McCain or Clinton would be asked if they did or said some of the same things he has said. He gets a free pass on the topic, because the majority of the media is white, and they are too afraid to even ask the question.

I am not trying to say that racisim in white America is gone, we all know that it is very very real even today, but that should not give a man who comes from a historically persecuted race, the ability to make racisit comments and not be called to task for it.

by usmcr3049 on Apr 8, 2008 7:56 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree and Disagree
I agree that Scott's comments are in very poor taste and he should be criticized for them.

I don't agree that there are just as many racists that are Black, Hispanic and Asian as White.  Perhaps you meant percentage-wise, in which case I still don't know if I'd agree but it would be much closer.

Where I really don't agree with you is that you seem to be suggesting that Obama's race is somehow helping him in this campaign.  If that were true, wouldn't we have seen a president who isn't a white man by now?  We are supposedly this enlightened country and yet countries many Americans look down on in the developing world have had women and minority leaders for years.  I don't see how Obama is getting a free pass on anything and I think an embarrassing number of white Americans are still unwilling to vote for a black man.

Your point about reverse racism existing is certainly valid but I think the de facto racism against minorities (i.e. worse neighborhoods, fewer opportunities for success) is still the bigger problem in this country.

by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't say...
I didn't say that I feel there are just as many racists that are black, however I am saying that a black man can be a racist just as easy as a white, yellow, brown, etc... man can be, (and yes woman can be racist too).

I guess we must disagree on the political race, and who has been favored.  I see the media reports each day, and wonder how Sen. Obama has run a campain for over year, and the first "critisim" he took was when his pastor really went over the line. Even during that scandel there were some in the media who said that "White America" just doesn't/can't understand how a black preacher talks, and Mr. Wright was being taken out of context.  How anyone can get that view point out of his speeches is beyond me.

I also agree with you that this country has a ways to go when dealing with "silent racism". If anyone is being held down because of their skin color than that is wrong and should be corrected. However I would also say that there are many people out there who use this as a crutch, and simply sit on their butt and cry racisim while not taking the initative to go out and make their dreams come true.  Our society, (all races) has been grown up a generation that feels entitled to everything, and doesn't seem to have the work ethic to go and get it for themselves. Unlike the "Greatest Generation" this generation has grown up in a historically wealthy state, more of this generations parents had wealth, which caused many children to not understand what it was to work hard, our failing schools are just a microcausim of this affect.

But back to basketball...Scott's comments while ok for him to say, would cause him to be fired if he was white, and said what I quoted above. That is wrong.

by usmcr3049 on Apr 8, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Easy, now...
Obama's (retired) pastor is not Obama.  I think you'd argue the same thing with regards to John McCain since he's been associated with a lot of just as hateful speech coming from the Christian Right.

However, this is about basketball, not politics.  Byron Scott's comments were ill advised and perhaps a bit racist.  On the other hand, for a game that is dominated by African-American players, there are not a lot of African-Americans in management (although this has been changing in recent years).

by DonkeyShins on Apr 8, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

um..
I am not saying that Obama is his pastor, only that it took something very very "out there" for the press to pounce.

And I did not say that it was better or worse than anything any other canidate has been involved with.

What I did say, is that every other canidate has been called to task in the media for many many things that I would say are "not as important".

I am not commenting on which canidate I like or which I believe would make a good president, I am commenting on how they are treated differently by the media in my eyes, and how that pertains to this topic in basketball.

by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to point out that other views are possible...
I, as a white person, who doesn't even have any black friends, found almost nothing to disagree with in Rev. Wright's sermons. With a very few exceptions, I felt that Wright was spot on, and I can't understand why so many people got upset.

by pualo on Apr 8, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

How do you know he REALLY went over the line
......................................................... when all you've heard is a 30 second snippet, replayed endlessly. And if you've paid attention, you've already noticed that a shortened snippet of the excerpt sounds significantly worse than the full 30 second clip (which is why Fox uses that approach). No context whatsoever...

The notion that B.O. is getting a free pass on anything is ludicrous, the slime machine is in full operation...

"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08

by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

we are going
we are going pretty far off topic, so I am going to stop posting about the political campaigns, and the media coverage of each. I will only say, don't take everything you see, read, or hear from the media at face value, be it from Fox, NBC, ABC, CNN, CBS, or any other news channel.

by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re fewer opportunities for success
Just how true is that?  I am of the opinion that the US offers greater opportunities for success than just about anyplace on this planet.  I would go so far as to say a black person has far more opportunity here than anywhere else.  Certainly more so than in any country in Africa.

We have an African American supreme court justice.  Our current and our previous Sec of State's are African American.  The Commandant at the US Military Academy during my nephew's time there was African American.  Our next President might be an African American.  On average, a minority today has as much and probably more opportunity than what my grandfather had when he came to this country.  He had the opportunity to bust his ass in a coal mine.  But his kids had the opportunity to get an education.  My uncle was a Naval officer and later a university professor.  My dad ended up with his own engineering firm.   My old housemate up here, like me from DC, is black.  When I met him he had trouble making the rent, rode to work on a bicycle somebody gave him and had a drinking problem.  He now owns his own business, drives a Mercedes (I don't drive a Mercedes), owns something like three vehicles and is looking to buy his first home.  Sure, he's been stopped at least once for driving while black, and at times had to deal with people who may have taken a dislike to him just because of is skin color, but those are minor things in the big picture.  

fyi - while he can't stand Bush and generally has a poor opinion of Republicans, I have hopes of bringing him around.  As a small business owner, he starts seeing some of the positives of the GOP whenever he looks at his taxes and paperwork requirements.

by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"just how true is that?"
Very true.  Blacks (and other minorities) make much less money, on average, than white people.  No matter what your stand on Affirmative Action (at universities and in the workplace), there is no question that without it, African Americans would be badly underrepresented-- indeed, even with these programs they are underrepresented.  It seems to me you could offer a few different explanations for this-- minorities don't try as hard, minorities aren't as smart, or societal conditions make it more difficult for them to succeed.  I choose the last explanation.

Citing examples of minorities who have done well isn't particularly relevant to dispute a point I made about a national trend.

Also, you say "Sure, he's been stopped at least once for driving while black, and at times had to deal with people who may have taken a dislike to him just because of is skin color, but those are minor things in the big picture."  If I had to deal with these indignities, I wouldn't view them as small things.

Not sure why you saw the need to add a commercial for the GOP to the end of your post.  I could do the same thing for the DNC, but I won't.

by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We are probably drifting further off topic
but I'd point out there are far more poor whites in this country than blacks.  And even at that, poor whites, blacks, latinos, etc have a far higher standard of living and more opportunity available to them, than about 3/4's of the population of this planet.

Two words - family and education.  If you don't have a stable (and supportive) family structure and you don't get an education, then yes, the number of opportunities available to you will be limited.   Now, who is it that's responsible for providing a stable family structure?  The government?  Good luck with that.

Education?  Public school is available to everyone.  I volunteer time to working with students and I can tell you the number one indicator of whether a kid will do well in school.  How much the parents care and are involved.  If the parents are not pushing the kid to do well, the odds are the kid, like most kids, is not going to be that interested in school.  There is no good reason not to be at least a high school graduate.  As for college, I paid my way through school with the GI Bill.  Last I heard, that's still available.

by timg56 on Apr 9, 2008 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Poverty draft into the war machine...
..................................pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Etc.

Etc.

"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08

by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no idea
what you're talking about here...are you being sarcastic?

by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Reason I ask
is my brother is in the Army and I think it's great that he'll be able to go to college afterward. Are you saying this isn't an honorable way to get an education?

by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Next you will tell us that minorities
are the ones who die all out of proportion to their percentage of the population.

I enlisted after a semester of college.  I felt I wasn't ready for college and didn't want to waste my dad's money.

I have a nephew who graduated from West Point.  His dad has worked his way up to being a VP of a major southern utility company.  My niece (his sister) is at CU on an Army nursing ROTC scholarship.

My stepson has just enlisted in the Marine Corps and upon completion of recruit training will be returning to WSU to finish his senior year and then apply for OCS.  While my wife and I are not what I would call rich, we by no means can be considered anywhere near the poverty level.

Statements like that indicate you've either never served or have your head up your butt.  Besides, one doesn't have to join the military.  There is Americorps if you want to serve in a different way.  We've had a large number of Americorp folks as employees with the non-profit I'm associated with.  

by timg56 on Apr 9, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

jksnake
Let's turn this around:


Blacks (and other minorities) make much less money, on average, than white people.  No matter what your stand on Affirmative Action (at universities and in the workplace), there is no question that without it, African Americans would be badly underrepresented-- indeed, even with these programs they are underrepresented.  It seems to me you could offer a few different explanations for this-- minorities don't try as hard, minorities aren't as smart, or societal conditions make it more difficult for them to succeed.  I choose the last explanation.

Now apply that same logic to the NBA. Do whites not try as hard, are not as smart, or league-wide conditions make it more difficult for them to succeed as players in the NBA?

I don't necessarily think it's reverse racism necessarily. I think it has to do with the competition level at a young age (blacks typically play in urban areas where basketball is taken very seriously) which hones their skills. By the same token, education and succeeding in a career are not taken seriously by many minority families, and that explains the earning gap.

It's not as simple as that, but I think it's a huge factor.

by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good point.
I remember a Washington Post piece from a couple of years ago that surveyed black teenagers in DC.  Even kids from affluent families admitted to placing a low value on education and getting good grades in school.  They said it was a sign that they were buying into the system and not down with their brothers.  In other words it was not only not cool to study, there was a stigma attached to it.  That is really sad.  

by timg56 on Apr 9, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well,
there's also evidence that blacks are genetically more well suited to certain sports, basketball being one of them.  I recommend the book "Taboo. Taboo: Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It."  It is a really interesting read and addresses some of the issues in this piece.

http://www.amazon.com/Taboo-Athletes-Dominate-Sports-Afraid/dp/158648026X

by jksnake99 on Apr 9, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also...
if you are going to make the case, as you do, that education and succeeding in a career are less valued by minority families, I think you should at least cite a reference.

To me that sounds like a very racist comment, unless you can show me some hard evidence to back it up.

by jksnake99 on Apr 9, 2008 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could maybe
go out and find a reference, and yeah, I probably should have done so. I don't feel like it was a racist statement (I didn't say it was because they were minorities that they didn't do as well) but rather a comment on society. Like the article TimG referred to above, there have been numerous studies and articles I've read about minority (but specifically black minority) families where education is not encouraged. I think blacks have a tremendous opportunity in our country if they just seize it.

As for saying blacks are better suited to specific sports...well, it's an interesting concept. Certainly there are differences between eastern and western African (as in west coast Africa, where most of the American blacks descend from, vs. east coast Africa, like Kenyans). There's a reason Kenyans dominate long distance running competitions and yet have very few successful sprinters. It has to do with their lung capacity and muscle structure.

However, I prefer to not take anything like that into account and let each individual person succeed or fail based on their own merits. It's the epitome of non-discrimination (not that I'm perfect, but that's what I strive for).

by jamon51 on Apr 14, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely parental attitude
toward education has a lot to do with how a child will do.  Expectations...whether it comes from home, school or society plays a large part in how kids do...in other words often kids believe how others believe, and if their family or teachers or society in general look at them as janitors...it's not much of a stretch for them to start thinking of themselves as janitors.  On the contrary if their family, teachers or society send them messages that they are Ivy League students...many kids will begin to see themselves in such a way.  Obviously, expectations are just one component, but an important one.  Poor inner-city schools, under-educated parents, and poverty also play a large role in the gap as well.  At a certain point all of us either do the best with what we have and stop playing the victim or continue to be stuck...all I'm saying, it just seems that a disproportionate amount of black families have less to work with than white families.    

by JasonT on Apr 9, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

White Coaches
Although it is changing with more really fine coaches like Nate, the reality is that in the NBA, even more than other sports, the white basketball player is the minority. The NBA has obviously compensated for a long time by hiring white coaches. There has been real fear in the past that an all black team wouldn't attract a white audience. I don't think that is the case at all anymore. More sophisticated audiences enjoy watching the gifted athlete. I think Jordan's ascendency buried a lot of the old remaining biases. In Portland, for instance, I don't think it would matter to Blazer fans if the team and its coach were all black. In fact, I think the present day fan would in fact be insulted by a token white. The cascasian players on this team are there because they can play or potentially play. If they don't, they will simply be replaced by better players whatever the color.

by tfairch on Apr 8, 2008 9:04 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I hesitate to comment....
  ...on an interview I have not seen/heard myself. I think it comes down to the gap between reality and the ideal.

  In general I don't like player comparisons at all, people seem to love to compare one player to another, define one player using the example of another. Usually I find the comparisons weak regardless of the ethnic background of the players used in the comparisons.

  You'd like humanity to keep moving towards the ideal, where we evaluate players, coaches, EVERYONE on the basis of who they are as human beings, and not on skin tone or ethnic background. In my lifetime I have witnessed improvement, in some cases vast improvement in moving towards that ideal. But there is still a gap.

   Generalizations are dangerous. Yes, I remember when every white Basketball player who could make a pass and hit a jumper was inevitably compared to Larry Bird. While also every black player who could dunk was inevitably compared to Dr.J or Jordan. Is there a racism at the heart of these comparisons? Probably a lazy kernel of it, but in most cases they are just bad comparisons made by people of limited basketball knowledge.

  I think society as a whole and we as individuals need to recognize that racism still exists, outwardly and inwardly. We have made gains but IMO the ideal where judgements aren't made at all on the basis skin color or ethnicity has not been reached. Keep striving and fill in the gap with understanding and discussions like this one.

  Again, I haven't heard the interview with Byron Scott but I find this statement disturbing: "I had always told myself when I got that type of power, that I would hire an all black staff, because they would be able to relate, and they would all be former basketball players."

  It smacks of racism, even if functionally it has some merit. If any white coach made the opposite statement, that he'd like to hire an all white staff because of any reasons stated, I think he would immeditately be attacked and held up as being racist.

  I think's it's sad and flawed if Byron Scott thinks only black people can relate, and only black people would be ex-players. Isn't it part of growth and understanding to know that white coaches can "relate" and coach black players and black coaches can "relate" and coach white players?

  Ideally wouldn't it show more understanding and growth by Byron Scott if he had said, " I used to think I wanted an all black staff, but now I realize I want the best staff I can assemble regardless of skin tone and racial background."

  It's dangerous water. In some forums McMillan has been accused of racism whenever Sergio doesn't play or Pryzbilla doesn't get the minutes. I don't think that is fair, I don't think it's a reality. But the accusation in of itself shows that we have not reached that ideal state where we don't factor in race or skin tone in our opinions.

  For example, Bill Bayno was by all reports an excellent assistant coach. He was a white man who worked with ALL our players. Byron Scott would be mistaken to think Bayno wouldn't be a great asset to any team, anyplace, anytime. Would Scott not hire him if given the opportunity because he isn't black?

   Scotts comments sound like someone who has been hurt by racism in the past, which is very likely- unfortunately. But his reaction seems to to me like someone who hasn't really learned. We haven't reached the ideal, until coaches are judged only as coaches, players as players, people as people. Sorry Byron, but any coach should simply want the best staff he can assemble...PERIOD.

  Again, I haven't heard the entire interview in context, so if I'm missing something then I apologize in advance. Given the chance to elaborate at the end of the show evidently Byron Scott hedged on his original comment but it still sounded like hedging to me.  
 

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Apr 8, 2008 9:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Reverse discrimination
has been not only condoned but openly supported for some time now by politicians and the media so I'm not surprised that Scott gets a free pass for his seemingly blatant display of such.  Dave and others seem to feel this is OK since it's retaliatory.

Personally, I don't like it much.  Until today, I didn't know this about Scott's staff but I wasn't a N.O. fan at all, partially because I think Chris Paul is cocky (although I am a big David West fan).  This information certainly will not help endear me to the Hornets and I agree with others who say this situation can only hurt the team in the long run.  

by TwoDeep on Apr 8, 2008 10:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I could disagree
at length here, but probably the only point that needs to be made is this:

Why wasn't this an issue for years when white coaches were doing it?  Why all the calls to account now that a black coach is?  If this is really an important, adrenaline-churning issue to people the timing of the indignation is...curious.  The only difference is that Byron Scott admitted it probably to bring up a point for wider consideration whereas the caucasian coaches didn't have to because it was never necessary to explain what everyone has accepted as the norm.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's exactly why I don't think it is much
of an issue.  To me, Scott is acting just like most coaches.  Like most people in fact.  It's normal human nature to choose people you are comfortable with.  And who hasn't heard the cliche "It's not what you know, but who you know that counts."  

I'll agree with TwoDeep that it is irritating and a bit of a double standard when Scott can make a statement like that and basically get a pass, where a white coach might get crucified and possible lose his job.  But that's life.  If that's all I have to deal with as a white male, I can handle it.  

by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

History
Our history is not pretty, there has been alot of discrimmination against black coaches in America's past, does that make it right for a black coach to do the same to white coaches? Two wrongs don't make a right is what my mom told me.

Also, I would say that in the last decade there have been many white coaches called to task in the media, because they didn't interview "enough" black coaches before they made their hire.

In the NFL there is even a stupid policy that a team "must" interview at least one black coach when doing a coaching search. Which ofcourse leads teams to do "token" interviews at times, (even times where Black coaches refuse to interview becasue they know they won't get the job) because there is not a black coach on the market that is as good or at least percieved to be as good as the white coach the team fired their last coach to be able to hire. (wow reading that again it was hard to follow, but I hope you get the point, or at least remember the team/coach I am talking about.)

This type of thinking, (it is ok for Scott to do it because white coaches have done it forever) is what I was talking about above in my previous post. White Amercia is ashamed of their past, and afraid of being called a racist, so they let comments like these go without reproach.

by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rooney Rule
I like the Rooney Rule.  There is no harm in interviewing a candidate, and even if the team is just going through the motions, it gives them an opportunity to learn more about a candidate they might not have normally considered.  It also helps the candidate, because interviewing for a job is tough, even a superficial interview is valuable practice to prepare the candidate for his next interview.  Not to mention there is a chance he might just get the job, if he is impressive enough.  The only bad thing, is that there has to be rule to give minorities an opportunity in the first place.  Which more of a indictment of our society and not the rule.  

Here is a good article about the rule.  

by tominhawaii on Apr 9, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree
with the idea that we shouldn't make decisions based on race.  I think we are all afraid to make racial distinctions for good reason... for so long those distinctions were made at the expense of racial minorities.  But today this is no longer the case; today most racial distinctions are made to the benefit of racial minorities, i.e. Affirmative action policies.  Calls against "black bigotry" and "reverse racism" rely on the premise that their is no difference between black and white.  I just don't think that is true.  

Racism on the part of a historically powerful group (whites) against a historically oppressed group (blacks) is not the same as racism on the part of a historically oppressed group against a historically oppressive group.  If we want to erase the effects of racism, it is not enough for us to simply stop discriminating; we need to actively make exceptions for groups that have historically been discriminated against as well.   If this means we have to make racial preferences when hiring than so be it.

 Also, because of our unique histories and because African Americans and Caucasians have, for voluntary and involuntary reasons, ended up for the most part living separate from each other.  (blacks in cities whites in suburbs) We have developed different cultural identities.  There is in my mind nothing wrong with a coach wanting to hire black assistants who can relate to players on a cultural level that maybe a white coach could not.

As for comparisons of black and white players.  I think it is clearly an example of our racial bias that we see color instead of ability when comparing players, but I'm not sure there is anything insidious about it.  The more disturbing practice is the media's tendency to depict white players as "hard working" or having a "good attitude" or making the most of limited skills while depicting blacks as "gifted athletes" who succeed because of their exceptional natural abilities.

by CTBlazerfan on Apr 8, 2008 10:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I disagree
Racisim is the same, it does not matter what the skin color of the person is, it is the beliefs, ideas, and actions of a racist that show him/her to be a racist, not their skin color.

by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

CT
...the premise that their is no difference between black and white. I just don't think that is true.

Let me quote a couple things:


I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. - MLK Jr.

I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word. - MLK Jr.

Unarmed truth. Unconditional love. Where does stating that whites and blacks need to be treated differently fall into that?

by jamon51 on Apr 14, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very interesting diary
I don't have anything to add to what has been wrote, but I have a question.
Why do Jason Kidd and Mike Bibby are considered "black" by the american society?
They are probably "whiter" than me.
Just an stupid question from an non-amrican.

by Bruno on Apr 8, 2008 10:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

There are several definitions...
Some people feel that, in America, "black" means "descended from American slaves."  By this definition, by the way, Barack Obama is not "black."

Some people define "black" as "of African descent."

Either way, it has nothing to do with how dark your skin is.  

by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but if I have one african american grandparent and
3 caucasians.
Would I be african american?

by Bruno on Apr 8, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bzzt try again
Anyone who is identified casually as black, is black. The only "black" people who don't quite fit are generally African immigrants who grew up in a completely different culture and think differently about race than most Americans. But, as Obama is both American and Black, and is treated as such by everyone, he is therefore black. It's not as if he wasn't catching the eye of shopkeepers, or old white ladies in Chicago wouldn't cross the street because his father was African rather than African-American.

by manzell on Apr 8, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't consider either to be black.
At least no more so than I consider myself to be Scottish.

Let's hear it for interracial sex.  Do it enough and there won't be enough distinguishing characteristics to discriminate on.

by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could go both ways on this one
Reverse discrimination has definitely been very prominent in the last decade, with colleges declining applicants because they are "too male and too white" (that's a verbatim quote from a little school called MIT).

At the same time, people in this country need to realize that just because there are obvious strengths and weaknesses of each race/ethnicity, it doesn't mean it's racist to point it out. Saying that hockey is a white sport or that basketball is a black sport IS NOT racism, nor is it derogatory...pointing out observations is not bad. Discriminating based on gender or race is what we should be worried out, and people need to stop confusing random observations with actual racism.

Rip City citizen

by kbbballkid37 on Apr 8, 2008 11:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

oh yeah
By "discriminating," I mean preventing equal opportunities based on race and gender.
Rip City citizen

by kbbballkid37 on Apr 8, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, you are factually wrong...
............................................ the reverse discrimination taking place in college admissions today is against applicants that are too white and too FEMALE.

Oh, dear, the angry white males are going to be aghast to learn THAT...

"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08

by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

MIT an EXCEPTION.
"You don't live by the jumpshot, you die by the jumpshot." ---Charles Barkley, 2/7/08

by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LZ Granderson has a kid?
Did he adopt? Did he father a child before he 'came out'? Anyone know the story there?

by manzell on Apr 8, 2008 11:36 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Random thoughts
I'm not sure how to tie this in but I know when evaluating Scott's comments and the responses here I wanted to consider different representations of "whiteness" and "blackness" in our society.  I don't necessarily mean popular representations in movies, music and other forms of entertainment but there is certainly a long history of defining blackness as understood by the dominant culture (whites) in these arenas.  

I think many media reps (probably too vague and generalized as a term but I couldn't think of anything else) and many people in common conversation often talk as though it is understood what "blackness" is and drop hints, but just hints, about defining it.  This form of stereotyping is perpetuated by fear of seeming racist.  This fear keeps people from really trying to understand or learn or consider what "black" or "white" or any socio-cultural label CAN mean.  

Constant scrutinizing of any reference to race in any venue makes it hard to forward discussion because it gets bogged down in accusation.  I think the ability to discuss complicated racial issues and how they play out in our lives in a big public forum is limited by this fear.  

I'm thinking Obama tried to get at the edges of this problem with his "racist grandma" anecdote.  I'm pretty sure we all have a racist of some type somewhere in our familial/social background.  I know I do.  Good thing I'm not running for president.  Would a white politician get the same leeway for associating with racists now that Obama has broken the seal?  Remember Trent Lott?  I know Obama's response was brought about by certain accusations and maybe, in this case, those accusations led to something more productive than normal.  

Remember when Rush tried to question McNabb's skills and accolades by asking (or maybe insisting) if race played an issue?  What if Stephen A Smith had done this?

I'm not trying to get real political here but I thought these recent examples related.  There are many points of contention in what I just wrote and it's woefully disjointed and incomplete but I thought I'd throw out what jumped into my head after reading what all of you had contributed so far.  I'm really not after the overtly political here but obviously this topic relates to all kinds of current political issues and questions.

by fatwansaboni on Apr 8, 2008 11:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Byron Scott said what????!!!!!
So he hired an all black coaching staff.  And now there are people crying "That's not fair!" "If we (whites) can't do it then why can he?!"  

Folks get a grip.  Give me a break....75% of the NBA players are black.  What percentage of the coaches are black?  What percentage of the owners are black?    

I'm a white male, and I'm not even close to being offended by Scott's statements.  Why?  Because, I work for the public school system in a large urban area that serve predominately black and hispanic students.  Guess what race disproportionally are employees of the school district...white!  Don't even get me started about the administrators.  

Where am I going with this?  Well coaches are much like educators.  And it is an advantage for both coaches and educators to reflect and relate culturally to their pupils.  Now I know many of you are going to say, "what about Peja?"  Maybe Scott should hire a Lithuanian coach?      

As an aside, we in the white culture don't have to say it outloud like Scott did, because it is a fact that white people are hired at a higher rate for better jobs than other racial groups...and many of us, myself included benefit from this system.  So, Scott is overtly trying to even the score a bit.  I got no problem with it.    

by JasonT on Apr 8, 2008 12:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't disagree
with your overall statement, but I do think that the NBA is one of the better leagues as far as hiring black coaches goes.  The NFL on the other hand...

by CTBlazerfan on Apr 8, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are absolutely right that the NBA is
better than other pro sports leagues in hiring black coaches...however, I would note that currently the NBA has 12 black coaches out of 30 teams...in other words 40% of the coaches are black (as you know we have one of the four black coaches in the Western conference...Nate, Scott, Avery, and Reggie Theus).  So while the NBA should be commended in terms of progress, it still has a ways to go until until it is truly reflective of the proportion of players.  

by JasonT on Apr 8, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we forget too
that having so many African-American coaches is a recent development.  Look back 15 years ago, which is when guys like Scott came up.  Sure you had K.C. Jones and Lenny Wilkins, but they were the exception.  You could understand how people still see things to be resolved.  You're going to have to have another generation or two of coaches before things have a chance to normalize and all of that (hopefully) is put in the past.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe black
'assistant' coaches have been prevalent for a long time.  And isn't that the issue here?  We're not talking about black head coaches.  

Yeah, there used to be plenty of all white coaching staffs, but that evolved from an early NBA that was composed mostly of white players.

What is bothersome to me is that Scott admitted a stated goal of having only black assistants and he'll get out of this with no reprimand whatsoever.  If a white coach stated the same, he wouldn't last a day.  

by TwoDeep on Apr 8, 2008 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

please annihilate this topic
Im sure your use of the word "evolved" was entirely circumspect of any good taste, if not barely by the attachment of possibility.

Filtering what is humorous from what is serious is often tasking, especially here, when you expect the conversation to be somehow related to the Portland Trail Blazers and not some self-espoused gurical tribal vernacular singularly sufficed.

Whether you like it, or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today.-- Ric Flair

by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think
this is a reference to the fact that Darwin and some other early proponents of evolution saw black people as being lower on the evolutionary scale than white people.

But I don't think there is remotely anything wrong with the way the word was used here.

I'm frequently right, but always certain

by jscot on Apr 9, 2008 2:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I understood the allusion
My response was more along the lines of "are you actually OUTRAGED by that, or is this some kind of complicated joke?"

by BlazersOrBust on Apr 9, 2008 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

LOL
In any case, the order would have been flipped anyway--he would seem to say that white people are lower on the evolutionary scale than black in that sense.

by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Believe me ....
my word choice was purely innocent. Webster defines evolve as "develop gradually" and that was my intended usage of it.

This political correctness stuff can really get me down. We're required to constantly tippy-toe and pussy-foot around with what we say so that none of those looking to be offended are.  Jeesh.      

 

by TwoDeep on Apr 9, 2008 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why is it
that you feel that the NBA needs 75% of its coaches to be black just because 75% of the players are black? (that percentage i just made up for comparison purposes)

Do you feel that a coach can not be a good coach unless he has played in the NBA, and all the current white coaches that didn't play in the NBA are only there because of racisim?

by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Those are great questions.
I am sure we both agree that being an NBA coach is a HUGE priviledge that is primarily filled by ex-players.  Outside of coaching there are few opportunities for ex-players, except for maybe a few national broadcasters, that are as prestigious as being an NBA head coach.  Now when the vast majority coaching candidates pool is filled with blacks, it would make sense for the coaches to represent that pool.  

And no, I don't believe that white coaches who did not play in the NBA are there because of overt racism.  However, you have to admit there is something that is causing a disproportionate number of white coaches to be hired.  Consider that most NBA players are first and foremost celebrated for their athletic ability and second for their cerebral power.  On the other hand, coaches are revered mostly for their intelligence and understanding of the game.  So, by hiring a disproportionate number of white coaches are the folks who are hiring the coaches buying into some stereotype that says that black players are not as smart as white players?  I'm not so sure if it's that simple, but it's something to think about.        

by JasonT on Apr 9, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mathematically
assuming that neither black nor white coaches have an advantage in basketball IQ (which I believe), the percentage of coaches should somewhat follow general percentages in society, with some margin for error one way or the other. So they should be about 12% of the coaches (12% of Americans are considered black). I think 40% could then be considered quite high.

How come we don't have more Hispanic coaches then? They're the largest minority, and no one seems to care about them.

LOL what a can of worms! Tom...dang you...

by jamon51 on Apr 14, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Racism and the NBA?
Yes. Pryzbilla never gets any calls.

by Sabonis4Ever on Apr 8, 2008 1:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hybrid vigor
My stepdad--a Harvard educated college professor--often uses the term "hybrid vigor."  I believe its roots are in the field of biology.  (E.g., in-breeding is an extreme example of the LACK of hybrid vigor.)  But it applies elsewhere.  For instance, it's no coincidence that so much great American music (e.g., jazz and funk) has its roots in New Orleans--the ultimate racial and cultural melting pot.  There's "hybrid vigor" at its best.

As to the case at hand, I have no problem with Byron Scott's desire for an all-black staff.  Sure he made a mistake in admitting that desire publicly, especially considering that the law makes no distinction between discrimination and reverse discrimination.  But after so many decades of all-white coaching staffs, how can you get up in arms over a guy putting the shoe on the other foot?

But I do think Scott is probably making a mistake strictly from a basketball standpoint.  This is where the concept of "hybrid vigor" comes in.  Modern NBA head coaches surround themselves with multiple assistants so that they'll get a wide variety of opinions and viewpoints.  This gives them more options to choose from.  So logically, you want your coaches to come from as diverse a set of backgrounds as possible.

Someone above mentioned the example of Bill Bayno--a white assistant on a black headcoach's staff who made an undeniable contribution.  But it should be noted that Bayno is an unusual guy; he spent a lot of time playing in black schoolyards coming up, has a multi-racial family, and in general is something of a cultural hybrid.  By contrast, Scott may have dealt with some white coaches in the past who had trouble relating to black players or even who were uncomfortable having a black boss.

So for Scott, the path of least resistance might be to avoid all those possible issues and just go with an all-black staff.  I can understand that choice.  I just think it's probably the wrong one.  If you have the chance to hire a Bill Bayno, you hire him even if he's green and has little horns sprouting from his forehead.  (Now THERE'S "hybrid vigor"!)

"Ime caught the guy in mid-air with a fist and calmly continued his dispatching of oncoming people." -Gabe Muoneke

by hurryup09 on Apr 8, 2008 2:31 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Byron Scott
Last time I looked, his team boasted the best record in the NBA.

Maybe - just maybe - his coaching staff might have had a little something to do with that.

And, if that is the case, then maybe Scott's choice to staff his bench exclusively with African American coaches makes sense not just from a sociological standpoint, but from a competitive one.

Here in Portland, we hear a lot of talk about the importance of "culture" as a component of success on the basketball floor. Maybe Scott's decision is how he has opted to develop that culture for the Hornets. If he feels that an all black staff will create an environment more conducive to winning, can anyone here really fault him? Would it bug you if Nate made the same choice and wound up achieving similar results to Scott's? After all, isn't winning the ultimate validation for a decision of this sort?

Earlier in this thread, someone said that if the Hornets had been playing poorly, Scott and his coaches would be held accountable. That is true. But maybe they should also be accorded some credit for the success of a team that few expected to even make the playoffs this year.

by knickfan on Apr 8, 2008 2:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

My only question is this
"If he feels that an all black staff will create an environment more conducive to winning, can anyone here really fault him?" If you replace black with white in that sentence, would you have been comfortable typing it?

by BlazersOrBust on Apr 8, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only snafu Scott made was to verbalize
it.  The truth of the matter is that we (white america) are just as guilty, but we do not need to overtly verbalize the preferential treatment we receive...because the status quo is that we get better paying jobs, go to better schools and disproportionately represent the upper and middle class...so we just sit silently and complicitly benefit from the status quo.  It is little hypocritical IMO to get all upset when someone verbalizes what we say everyday silently.  

by JasonT on Apr 8, 2008 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As a fan, why should I care
what the racial make-up of a team's coaching staff happens to be?

All I really need to concern myself with are the results.

Most NBA teams are made up primarily of young black men. If Byron Scott or any other coach or GM feels that hiring coaches of similar ethnicities and backgrounds would be more conducive to creating a winning environment, then that should be his prerogative. If there was a team whose roster consisted mostly of white farmboys from Eastern Oregon and management thought they would have more success surrounding them with an all-white coaching staff, well, that would also be fine.

In either case, the onus is still on the coaching staffs to produce wins. If the Hornets hadn't enjoyed the success they've had this season, you can bet that Scott would've been crucified for running an affirmative action program or some such similar nonsense. But since his team has played so well and won, is it really fair to characterize Scott's coaching hires as simply the result of some racially-based vendetta?

Let's face it: As fans, we all tend to check our moral, social, and political beliefs and biases at the door when it comes to wins and losses. Just look no farther than those Dallas Cowboys fans who are currently salivating over the prospect of adding Pacman Jones to the team. The fact that Jones has been involved in several violent off-field incidents (one of which left a man paralyzed for life) is secondary to the fact that the team needs a good cornerback and kick returner. I'm guessing that many of those same Cowboy fans would probably not give Pacman a second chance if they had the chance to hire them for their own place of business. But they're all about giving him a second chance if it might help their team win an extra game or two.

Now, I'm not suggesting there's any moral equivalence between the race-based hiring of coaches and adding a mega-thug like Pacman Jones to your roster. That's not my point. I'm merely trying to illustrate the silliness of the expressions of moral outrage that I've read in this thread. You want to express condemantion over what Byron Scott did and said, fine. But I don't think many Hornet fans - white or black - are losing too much sleep over it. And if Nate McMillan decided to adopt Scott's strategy and the Blazers wound up with the best record in the Western Conference, I doubt many of you would be losing too much sleep over that either.

by knickfan on Apr 8, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

P.S.
I actually agree with everything else you said. I just thought it was interesting that what appears to me to be a racial double-standard slipped so easily into a well-reasoned and -articulated post.

by BlazersOrBust on Apr 8, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

how do we create change?
so what you said doesnt happen, or continue to happen, assuming it does.

lets see, how to create change... hmmm... how about if people stop bringing it up as an issue when it isnt?

give mankind some credit, when they are afforded better choices, they usually make them.

Whether you like it, or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today.-- Ric Flair

by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 4:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

raef gets run over
i guess experience is no substitution for the susperstar exception
Whether you like it, or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today.-- Ric Flair

by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 7:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

wooops!
Whether you like it, or you don't like it, learn to love it, because it's the best thing going today.-- Ric Flair

by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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