Racism and the NBA
I am willing to admit that I am probably the last person who should bring up this subject. I hope to bring about a discussion and see if we can create some good from it. The subject of race and the NBA has been in my mind ever since I watched Black Magic. There is probably someone more qualified to start this discussion, but I do not know who to ask to do so.
This afternoon, I listened to Stephen A. Smith's podcast with the head coach of the New Orleans Hornets, Byron Scott. Smith was especially enamored with the fact that Scott has an all black staff. While discussing that subject, Scott said, "I had always told myself when I got that type of power, that I would hire an all black staff, because they would be able to relate, and they would all be former basketball players."
When I heard the statement, I thought nothing of it, then I thought, "Wow, that statement is a lawsuit waiting to happen." At the end of the conversation, Smith gave Scott an opportunity to clarify his statement before they received a bunch of calls. Scott then said "I got the best four or five guys that I could get, to make me the best basketball coach and make us a better team. Now they all happen to be black. It's not like I didn't do any interviewing of a white assistants." Scott went on to elaborate and say, "We all hear this... obviously we're not racist and we hear this from white people but some of my best friends are black. You know, it's the same thing; I got friends in the NBA, black, white all colors, and it really didn't matter. It was a matter of what I felt more comfortable with, and the people that I felt I could surround myself with, to be a better basketball coach and make us a better basketball team."
I honestly do not feel that Scott did anything wrong, besides admitting on tape that he wanted to hire an all black staff. He should have said it was a coincidence that they are all black.
I also read an article by LZ Granderson the other day entitled, Who says white men can't jump? It is a good read and I recommend it whole heartedly. I want to focus on this paragraph and ask everyone what they thought.
Alas, only white players can be compared to white players and blacks to black. If we started comparing athletes based on quaint little qualities such as talent and skill level instead of incidental ones like skin color and ethnicity, then we might actually be forced to stop and think.A lot of people have fallen into the trap of comparing white people to white people, black people to black people, and to a smaller extent, foreign players to foreign players. Why do you think so many people take race into account, when they compare NBA players? And with that in mind, how do we create change, so that players are compared by their skills and talent, and not the color or their skin?
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100 comments
Comments
Lotta really interesting issues...
I try to make a point of comparing white guys to black guys and vice versa. I hate it when every Euro gets compared to Dirk or Manu, even when they have very different games.
Scott's comments are interesting. It makes sense to want guys who can relate to players (and being an ex-player helps), but their color shouldn't matter.
There is racism in sports (from multiple directions), which isn't surprising given that there is racism everywhere in our culture, we just aren't always aware of it.
by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 12:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i can understand
by TheOdenator on Apr 8, 2008 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Therein Lies the Rub
by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 12:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think...
I recommend reading the book "Taboo," which is subtitled "Why Black Athletes Dominate Sports and Why We're Afraid to Talk About It." It deals with a lot of the challenging issues Tom has brought up.
by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Tom
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 12:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
However,
I like your point about athletes only being compared to others of similar origin...unless, like Jason Williams, they break into the stereotypical realm of another origin and receive a semi-appreciative, yet racially-slanted, nickname. I had never thought of it explicitly before but you really have a point there.
Coach Scott is free to hire anyone he wishes for just about any reason he wishes, as is the prerogative of any head coach. I suspect we've had enough caucasian coaches hired over similarly qualified African-American coaches in ALL sports over the course of the last 30 years that it doesn't bother me when it works the other way sometime. If a white coach can say, "I know these guys are all qualified but I'm just more comfortable with the people I know" then why can't a black coach say that? Any coach of any race who hires exclusively because of race without regard to competence will eventually fall victim to his staff's weakness and won't be a coach that long. If that doesn't happen--meaning the guys were at least semi-competent--why should race enter into it? Intentions or not, who's to say that a guy was hired because of race and just happened to be competent or a guy was hired because he was competent and just happened to be of a certain race? Either way, it doesn't matter unless or until you can show there's intentional organizational bias from a team or a league. I seriously doubt that can be argued in this case, even if you just look at the Hornets. How many other caucasians are on the team's staff? How many have been coaches in the past and how many will there be in the future? There just don't happen to be any on the coaching roster at this particular moment in time. That doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm With You
by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the same time
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 1:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That idea
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 1:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
abandon the idea
by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Problem
My comment was that I see Tyler Hansbrough as more of a Dennis Rodman, without the mental problems, but he is commonly compared to Mark Madsen. I heard the Rodman/Hansbrough comparison somewhere else but I cannot remember who said it.
The sad thing is that this is a subject that needs discussed but it is normally discussed by the wrong people or for the wrong reasons. Maybe I should stick with silly diaries. I imagine people are hesitant to say anything to avoid their message being misconstrued.
by tominhawaii on Apr 8, 2008 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all!
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 1:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
touchy subject
I havent been here that long, but from what I have seen borderline topics are your specialty.
by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK
If the opportunity presents itself, I would like to discuss a variety of touchy subjects that apply to either the NBA or the Trail Blazers. I take no one for granted, have the ability to make light of any situation, and reserve the right to do so. I try not to offend anyone and realize that I probably do offend people. I mean no disrespect and they are free to skip over my comments or diaries. Not to mention, there are plenty of checks and balances to keep me in line.
by tominhawaii on Apr 9, 2008 3:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding your last paragraph
- There are no touchy subjects, just touchy people. (I actually stumbled onto a serious point here, but I'll get over it.)
- You can take me for granted anytime. That's what friends are for. Of course, I'm really your enemy and plotting your downfall, but I've got you convinced that I'm a friend, so take me for granted. Please.
- I'm too arrogant to be offended. (At least, I have to keep up my persona, so I can't let myself be offended, or it would undermine my eventual world domination.)
- You can't disrespect me, because it is such condescension on my part to post on your diary that disrespect can't even come into it.
- I define "checks and balances". (Ask amlmart1, he says so.) Until Dave bans me.
In medieval times, the court jester/fool was usually the sharpest person around. He could say things that no one else could say, and many kings found it useful to find out what people were thinking about them by hearing it from the jester. No one else would have dared, it would have cost them their head -- yet a king could learn valuable lessons about himself and the way he was ruling from the jester, and the way his courtiers responded to things the jester said.
Just because Tom likes to GOOF around (for a guy who claims to have become a fan after the lottery last year, he knows an awful lot about Blazer history) does not disqualify him from tackling serious subjects seriously. Like a good jester of old, he appears to usually know how far he can go without getting his head chopped off.
by jscot on Apr 9, 2008 5:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any person ruling a country,
by amlmart1 on Apr 9, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great diary
Is this racism? I suppose it depends on how you define racism.
I think we have to come to terms with the fact that a lot of what goes under the label "racism" is really "culturalism". I've had some good friends down through the years who would probably not feel as comfortable with hiring me as they would with many black people.
But it had nothing to do with my skin color. It had to do with cultural differences. We listened to different music, had different accents, drove different cars, etc. And we respected and liked each other, and if I happened to be perfect for the job, they would have hired me. But all other things being equal, they would have been more comfortable hiring someone with whom they had more mutual friends, life experiences, etc.
That's not racism, and shouldn't be labeled as such, whether it is white people or black people doing the hiring.
Should that be a factor? Well, I think you miss an opportunity to broaden your horizons, and to increase your opportunities to relate to a broader range of players (if we are talking about a coaching staff). So I think it is unwise, a mistake. It certainly isn't going to encourage white players to want to play for your team, or white customers to come to your store, or whatever, if all of your employees are black.
But I don't think it is of itself morally wrong, or racist. It can be done with racist motivations, of course, but it is wrong to assume (whether whites or blacks are doing it) that those are the motivations.
by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 1:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hiring someone...
In the short term, this practice might appear to strengthen your position and will certainly fill you with warm fuzzies but long term it is a recipe for disaster.
I believe very strongly that you cannot have long term success without diversification.
I love a good cup of hot chocolate. But add a shot of vanilla or a pinch of cayenne to a cup of hot chocolate and just tell me your drinking experience isn't enhanced. Go ahead, just tell me that.
by ken on Apr 8, 2008 4:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
But I think it would be hard to argue that it is immoral.
by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 4:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree.
I'm not saying that having a variety of talent, skill sets, opinions and backgrounds is a bad thing. In fact it's one of the things that I believe makes this nation the greatest place on earth to live. But it is not a be all end all.
Take your example of hot chocolate. For some people that shot of vanilla, cinnamon or cayenne might make the drink better. But for many, plain old fashioned hot chocolate works just fine. It's certainly been around long enough. I'm betting if you started a cocoa stand and offered only hot chocolate with other flavors added and no plain cocoa, you'd find your customer base to be limited, as far more people drink it plain than with cayenne.
An even better example may be the one tom used to start this discussion. Byron Scott certainly does not seem to be suffering from surrounding himself with liked minded assistants. (Of course we make an assumption here that his assistants all think like him because they are black. I'd argue that's not the case.) When everybody is on board, buying into the same goal and the plan to reach it, one's chances for success improve. Bringing together a group that has different approaches to accomplishing the same task has as much chance of blowing up as succeeding, unless there is a strong hand at the helm.
The failure of those in love with multiculturalism and diversification is that they see these as a good thing all by themselves, when in truth they are only a strength when they are tied together by overlying, uniting principles that everyone believes in.
by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this discussion presupposes
But when there is that overlying, uniting principle, diversity is certainly a strength.
Byron Scott risks, by his statements and hiring, alienating any white free agent he might want to bring to his team. He also risks alienating part of the fan base.
I'll use another example. We have, in our church, people from at least six different nations. The result is that people from any nation are more likely to feel welcome because they know it is not a xenophobic church. That diversity is a strength -- but only because we have that uniting principle you mentioned. But as long as that uniting principle is there, diversity is a definite plus.
by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, yeah, Mr. Latin...
Diversity also comes from the same root as DIVIDEND.
Using root origins of words to "make" a subjective point is fallacious.
t
by timbo on Apr 8, 2008 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dividends are bad, too
When I rule the world, in my magnanimity I will relieve them of this burdensome task.
by jscot on Apr 8, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dividends also spread wealth to participants...
by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to reply,
by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
by CTBlazerfan on Apr 8, 2008 5:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if racism isn't again becoming more
by annthefan on Apr 8, 2008 1:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oops.
by annthefan on Apr 8, 2008 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My wife
by fatwansaboni on Apr 8, 2008 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good diary topic, Tom
At the risk of delving into psychobabble, I also think that stereotypes and confirmation bias play a role. In my opinion, the popular thinking says that black players are flashy, athletic dunkers; white players are fundamentally sound, athletically limited scrappers; and foreign players are all-offense, no-defense softies. Seeing a white/black/foreign player triggers that stereotype pathway and impedes logical cross-stereotype connections: for example, Tyler Hansbrough gets compared to Mark Madsen and not Paul Millsap, which I think is a much more apt comparison. Confirmation bias comes into play to mentally eliminate players that would disprove the universality of those stereotypes -- Tim Duncan is probably the least athletic of the NBA's superstars but perhaps the most fundamentally sound, for one example, and Eduardo Najera and Jorge Garbajosa are both hard-nosed defensive players.
I edit for my school's newspaper and wrote a column about fans' racism with regards to the NBA that generated some interesting feedback. For those who are interested, it's here.
by BlazersOrBust on Apr 8, 2008 2:59 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
nice article
by Ben. on Apr 8, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent article
by TheOdenator on Apr 8, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sense and sensibility
All kind of racism must be fought, but individual racism is many times very complex and difficult to discover it and to judge it. Prejudice is a primitive intelligence, very economic in terms of effort. Poor intelligence but intelligence. And human always try to be inteligent even when doing so they only become more stupid.
by amlmart1 on Apr 8, 2008 4:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like that we break the barriers on this site.
We compare Jarrett Jack and Sergio Rodriguez constantly here. Maybe 'compare' is a little too friendly of a term for what happens, but it think it still fits well enough to use it.
Excellent post Mr. inHawaii, and very thought provoking responses from the rest of you.
by T Darkstar on Apr 8, 2008 5:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
turn around the quote...
"I had always told myself when I got that type of power, that I would hire an all white staff, because they would be able to relate, and they would all be former basketball players."
"I got the best four or five guys that I could get, to make me the best basketball coach and make us a better team. Now they all happen to be white. It's not like I didn't do any interviewing of a black assistants."
"We all hear this... obviously we're not racist and we hear this from black people but some of my best friends are white. You know, it's the same thing; I got friends in the NBA, black, white all colors, and it really didn't matter. It was a matter of what I felt more comfortable with, and the people that I felt I could surround myself with, to be a better basketball coach and make us a better basketball team."
Reverse racisim is very real in the United States. A combination of the white majority feeling guilty for their ancestors mistakes, and a black community which believes they can not be racist because they are black. Racisim is not hatred of whites towards blacks, it does not know color lines, and there are just as many racisits and bigots that are black, hispanic, and asian, as their are who are white.
I don't like Scott's comments, because they reinforce America's messed up ideals that a Black man is free from any questions when it comes to racisim. Just like our Presidential race, where Sen. Obama is not asked the same questions as McCain or Clinton would be asked if they did or said some of the same things he has said. He gets a free pass on the topic, because the majority of the media is white, and they are too afraid to even ask the question.
I am not trying to say that racisim in white America is gone, we all know that it is very very real even today, but that should not give a man who comes from a historically persecuted race, the ability to make racisit comments and not be called to task for it.
by usmcr3049 on Apr 8, 2008 7:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree and Disagree
I don't agree that there are just as many racists that are Black, Hispanic and Asian as White. Perhaps you meant percentage-wise, in which case I still don't know if I'd agree but it would be much closer.
Where I really don't agree with you is that you seem to be suggesting that Obama's race is somehow helping him in this campaign. If that were true, wouldn't we have seen a president who isn't a white man by now? We are supposedly this enlightened country and yet countries many Americans look down on in the developing world have had women and minority leaders for years. I don't see how Obama is getting a free pass on anything and I think an embarrassing number of white Americans are still unwilling to vote for a black man.
Your point about reverse racism existing is certainly valid but I think the de facto racism against minorities (i.e. worse neighborhoods, fewer opportunities for success) is still the bigger problem in this country.
by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say...
I guess we must disagree on the political race, and who has been favored. I see the media reports each day, and wonder how Sen. Obama has run a campain for over year, and the first "critisim" he took was when his pastor really went over the line. Even during that scandel there were some in the media who said that "White America" just doesn't/can't understand how a black preacher talks, and Mr. Wright was being taken out of context. How anyone can get that view point out of his speeches is beyond me.
I also agree with you that this country has a ways to go when dealing with "silent racism". If anyone is being held down because of their skin color than that is wrong and should be corrected. However I would also say that there are many people out there who use this as a crutch, and simply sit on their butt and cry racisim while not taking the initative to go out and make their dreams come true. Our society, (all races) has been grown up a generation that feels entitled to everything, and doesn't seem to have the work ethic to go and get it for themselves. Unlike the "Greatest Generation" this generation has grown up in a historically wealthy state, more of this generations parents had wealth, which caused many children to not understand what it was to work hard, our failing schools are just a microcausim of this affect.
But back to basketball...Scott's comments while ok for him to say, would cause him to be fired if he was white, and said what I quoted above. That is wrong.
by usmcr3049 on Apr 8, 2008 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Easy, now...
However, this is about basketball, not politics. Byron Scott's comments were ill advised and perhaps a bit racist. On the other hand, for a game that is dominated by African-American players, there are not a lot of African-Americans in management (although this has been changing in recent years).
by DonkeyShins on Apr 8, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
um..
And I did not say that it was better or worse than anything any other canidate has been involved with.
What I did say, is that every other canidate has been called to task in the media for many many things that I would say are "not as important".
I am not commenting on which canidate I like or which I believe would make a good president, I am commenting on how they are treated differently by the media in my eyes, and how that pertains to this topic in basketball.
by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to point out that other views are possible...
by pualo on Apr 8, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know he REALLY went over the line
The notion that B.O. is getting a free pass on anything is ludicrous, the slime machine is in full operation...
by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we are going
by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re fewer opportunities for success
We have an African American supreme court justice. Our current and our previous Sec of State's are African American. The Commandant at the US Military Academy during my nephew's time there was African American. Our next President might be an African American. On average, a minority today has as much and probably more opportunity than what my grandfather had when he came to this country. He had the opportunity to bust his ass in a coal mine. But his kids had the opportunity to get an education. My uncle was a Naval officer and later a university professor. My dad ended up with his own engineering firm. My old housemate up here, like me from DC, is black. When I met him he had trouble making the rent, rode to work on a bicycle somebody gave him and had a drinking problem. He now owns his own business, drives a Mercedes (I don't drive a Mercedes), owns something like three vehicles and is looking to buy his first home. Sure, he's been stopped at least once for driving while black, and at times had to deal with people who may have taken a dislike to him just because of is skin color, but those are minor things in the big picture.
fyi - while he can't stand Bush and generally has a poor opinion of Republicans, I have hopes of bringing him around. As a small business owner, he starts seeing some of the positives of the GOP whenever he looks at his taxes and paperwork requirements.
by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"just how true is that?"
Citing examples of minorities who have done well isn't particularly relevant to dispute a point I made about a national trend.
Also, you say "Sure, he's been stopped at least once for driving while black, and at times had to deal with people who may have taken a dislike to him just because of is skin color, but those are minor things in the big picture." If I had to deal with these indignities, I wouldn't view them as small things.
Not sure why you saw the need to add a commercial for the GOP to the end of your post. I could do the same thing for the DNC, but I won't.
by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We are probably drifting further off topic
Two words - family and education. If you don't have a stable (and supportive) family structure and you don't get an education, then yes, the number of opportunities available to you will be limited. Now, who is it that's responsible for providing a stable family structure? The government? Good luck with that.
Education? Public school is available to everyone. I volunteer time to working with students and I can tell you the number one indicator of whether a kid will do well in school. How much the parents care and are involved. If the parents are not pushing the kid to do well, the odds are the kid, like most kids, is not going to be that interested in school. There is no good reason not to be at least a high school graduate. As for college, I paid my way through school with the GI Bill. Last I heard, that's still available.
by timg56 on Apr 9, 2008 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poverty draft into the war machine...
Etc.
Etc.
by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea
by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reason I ask
by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Next you will tell us that minorities
I enlisted after a semester of college. I felt I wasn't ready for college and didn't want to waste my dad's money.
I have a nephew who graduated from West Point. His dad has worked his way up to being a VP of a major southern utility company. My niece (his sister) is at CU on an Army nursing ROTC scholarship.
My stepson has just enlisted in the Marine Corps and upon completion of recruit training will be returning to WSU to finish his senior year and then apply for OCS. While my wife and I are not what I would call rich, we by no means can be considered anywhere near the poverty level.
Statements like that indicate you've either never served or have your head up your butt. Besides, one doesn't have to join the military. There is Americorps if you want to serve in a different way. We've had a large number of Americorp folks as employees with the non-profit I'm associated with.
by timg56 on Apr 9, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
jksnake
Blacks (and other minorities) make much less money, on average, than white people. No matter what your stand on Affirmative Action (at universities and in the workplace), there is no question that without it, African Americans would be badly underrepresented-- indeed, even with these programs they are underrepresented. It seems to me you could offer a few different explanations for this-- minorities don't try as hard, minorities aren't as smart, or societal conditions make it more difficult for them to succeed. I choose the last explanation.
Now apply that same logic to the NBA. Do whites not try as hard, are not as smart, or league-wide conditions make it more difficult for them to succeed as players in the NBA?
I don't necessarily think it's reverse racism necessarily. I think it has to do with the competition level at a young age (blacks typically play in urban areas where basketball is taken very seriously) which hones their skills. By the same token, education and succeeding in a career are not taken seriously by many minority families, and that explains the earning gap.
It's not as simple as that, but I think it's a huge factor.
by jamon51 on Apr 9, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
by timg56 on Apr 9, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
http://www.amazon.com/Taboo-Athletes-Dominate-Sports-Afraid/dp/158648026X
by jksnake99 on Apr 9, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
To me that sounds like a very racist comment, unless you can show me some hard evidence to back it up.
by jksnake99 on Apr 9, 2008 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could maybe
As for saying blacks are better suited to specific sports...well, it's an interesting concept. Certainly there are differences between eastern and western African (as in west coast Africa, where most of the American blacks descend from, vs. east coast Africa, like Kenyans). There's a reason Kenyans dominate long distance running competitions and yet have very few successful sprinters. It has to do with their lung capacity and muscle structure.
However, I prefer to not take anything like that into account and let each individual person succeed or fail based on their own merits. It's the epitome of non-discrimination (not that I'm perfect, but that's what I strive for).
by jamon51 on Apr 14, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely parental attitude
by JasonT on Apr 9, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
White Coaches
by tfairch on Apr 8, 2008 9:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hesitate to comment....
In general I don't like player comparisons at all, people seem to love to compare one player to another, define one player using the example of another. Usually I find the comparisons weak regardless of the ethnic background of the players used in the comparisons.
You'd like humanity to keep moving towards the ideal, where we evaluate players, coaches, EVERYONE on the basis of who they are as human beings, and not on skin tone or ethnic background. In my lifetime I have witnessed improvement, in some cases vast improvement in moving towards that ideal. But there is still a gap.
Generalizations are dangerous. Yes, I remember when every white Basketball player who could make a pass and hit a jumper was inevitably compared to Larry Bird. While also every black player who could dunk was inevitably compared to Dr.J or Jordan. Is there a racism at the heart of these comparisons? Probably a lazy kernel of it, but in most cases they are just bad comparisons made by people of limited basketball knowledge.
I think society as a whole and we as individuals need to recognize that racism still exists, outwardly and inwardly. We have made gains but IMO the ideal where judgements aren't made at all on the basis skin color or ethnicity has not been reached. Keep striving and fill in the gap with understanding and discussions like this one.
Again, I haven't heard the interview with Byron Scott but I find this statement disturbing: "I had always told myself when I got that type of power, that I would hire an all black staff, because they would be able to relate, and they would all be former basketball players."
It smacks of racism, even if functionally it has some merit. If any white coach made the opposite statement, that he'd like to hire an all white staff because of any reasons stated, I think he would immeditately be attacked and held up as being racist.
I think's it's sad and flawed if Byron Scott thinks only black people can relate, and only black people would be ex-players. Isn't it part of growth and understanding to know that white coaches can "relate" and coach black players and black coaches can "relate" and coach white players?
Ideally wouldn't it show more understanding and growth by Byron Scott if he had said, " I used to think I wanted an all black staff, but now I realize I want the best staff I can assemble regardless of skin tone and racial background."
It's dangerous water. In some forums McMillan has been accused of racism whenever Sergio doesn't play or Pryzbilla doesn't get the minutes. I don't think that is fair, I don't think it's a reality. But the accusation in of itself shows that we have not reached that ideal state where we don't factor in race or skin tone in our opinions.
For example, Bill Bayno was by all reports an excellent assistant coach. He was a white man who worked with ALL our players. Byron Scott would be mistaken to think Bayno wouldn't be a great asset to any team, anyplace, anytime. Would Scott not hire him if given the opportunity because he isn't black?
Scotts comments sound like someone who has been hurt by racism in the past, which is very likely- unfortunately. But his reaction seems to to me like someone who hasn't really learned. We haven't reached the ideal, until coaches are judged only as coaches, players as players, people as people. Sorry Byron, but any coach should simply want the best staff he can assemble...PERIOD.
Again, I haven't heard the entire interview in context, so if I'm missing something then I apologize in advance. Given the chance to elaborate at the end of the show evidently Byron Scott hedged on his original comment but it still sounded like hedging to me.
by Krang on Apr 8, 2008 9:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Reverse discrimination
Personally, I don't like it much. Until today, I didn't know this about Scott's staff but I wasn't a N.O. fan at all, partially because I think Chris Paul is cocky (although I am a big David West fan). This information certainly will not help endear me to the Hornets and I agree with others who say this situation can only hurt the team in the long run.
by TwoDeep on Apr 8, 2008 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I could disagree
Why wasn't this an issue for years when white coaches were doing it? Why all the calls to account now that a black coach is? If this is really an important, adrenaline-churning issue to people the timing of the indignation is...curious. The only difference is that Byron Scott admitted it probably to bring up a point for wider consideration whereas the caucasian coaches didn't have to because it was never necessary to explain what everyone has accepted as the norm.
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly why I don't think it is much
I'll agree with TwoDeep that it is irritating and a bit of a double standard when Scott can make a statement like that and basically get a pass, where a white coach might get crucified and possible lose his job. But that's life. If that's all I have to deal with as a white male, I can handle it.
by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
History
Also, I would say that in the last decade there have been many white coaches called to task in the media, because they didn't interview "enough" black coaches before they made their hire.
In the NFL there is even a stupid policy that a team "must" interview at least one black coach when doing a coaching search. Which ofcourse leads teams to do "token" interviews at times, (even times where Black coaches refuse to interview becasue they know they won't get the job) because there is not a black coach on the market that is as good or at least percieved to be as good as the white coach the team fired their last coach to be able to hire. (wow reading that again it was hard to follow, but I hope you get the point, or at least remember the team/coach I am talking about.)
This type of thinking, (it is ok for Scott to do it because white coaches have done it forever) is what I was talking about above in my previous post. White Amercia is ashamed of their past, and afraid of being called a racist, so they let comments like these go without reproach.
by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rooney Rule
by tominhawaii on Apr 9, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
Racism on the part of a historically powerful group (whites) against a historically oppressed group (blacks) is not the same as racism on the part of a historically oppressed group against a historically oppressive group. If we want to erase the effects of racism, it is not enough for us to simply stop discriminating; we need to actively make exceptions for groups that have historically been discriminated against as well. If this means we have to make racial preferences when hiring than so be it.
Also, because of our unique histories and because African Americans and Caucasians have, for voluntary and involuntary reasons, ended up for the most part living separate from each other. (blacks in cities whites in suburbs) We have developed different cultural identities. There is in my mind nothing wrong with a coach wanting to hire black assistants who can relate to players on a cultural level that maybe a white coach could not.
As for comparisons of black and white players. I think it is clearly an example of our racial bias that we see color instead of ability when comparing players, but I'm not sure there is anything insidious about it. The more disturbing practice is the media's tendency to depict white players as "hard working" or having a "good attitude" or making the most of limited skills while depicting blacks as "gifted athletes" who succeed because of their exceptional natural abilities.
by CTBlazerfan on Apr 8, 2008 10:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
CT
Let me quote a couple things:
I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. - MLK Jr.
Unarmed truth. Unconditional love. Where does stating that whites and blacks need to be treated differently fall into that?
by jamon51 on Apr 14, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting diary
Why do Jason Kidd and Mike Bibby are considered "black" by the american society?
They are probably "whiter" than me.
Just an stupid question from an non-amrican.
by Bruno on Apr 8, 2008 10:48 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There are several definitions...
Some people define "black" as "of African descent."
Either way, it has nothing to do with how dark your skin is.
by jksnake99 on Apr 8, 2008 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but if I have one african american grandparent and
Would I be african american?
by Bruno on Apr 8, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bzzt try again
by manzell on Apr 8, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't consider either to be black.
Let's hear it for interracial sex. Do it enough and there won't be enough distinguishing characteristics to discriminate on.
by timg56 on Apr 8, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could go both ways on this one
At the same time, people in this country need to realize that just because there are obvious strengths and weaknesses of each race/ethnicity, it doesn't mean it's racist to point it out. Saying that hockey is a white sport or that basketball is a black sport IS NOT racism, nor is it derogatory...pointing out observations is not bad. Discriminating based on gender or race is what we should be worried out, and people need to stop confusing random observations with actual racism.
by kbbballkid37 on Apr 8, 2008 11:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah
by kbbballkid37 on Apr 8, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, you are factually wrong...
Oh, dear, the angry white males are going to be aghast to learn THAT...
by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
MIT an EXCEPTION.
by timbo on Apr 9, 2008 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LZ Granderson has a kid?
by manzell on Apr 8, 2008 11:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Random thoughts
I think many media reps (probably too vague and generalized as a term but I couldn't think of anything else) and many people in common conversation often talk as though it is understood what "blackness" is and drop hints, but just hints, about defining it. This form of stereotyping is perpetuated by fear of seeming racist. This fear keeps people from really trying to understand or learn or consider what "black" or "white" or any socio-cultural label CAN mean.
Constant scrutinizing of any reference to race in any venue makes it hard to forward discussion because it gets bogged down in accusation. I think the ability to discuss complicated racial issues and how they play out in our lives in a big public forum is limited by this fear.
I'm thinking Obama tried to get at the edges of this problem with his "racist grandma" anecdote. I'm pretty sure we all have a racist of some type somewhere in our familial/social background. I know I do. Good thing I'm not running for president. Would a white politician get the same leeway for associating with racists now that Obama has broken the seal? Remember Trent Lott? I know Obama's response was brought about by certain accusations and maybe, in this case, those accusations led to something more productive than normal.
Remember when Rush tried to question McNabb's skills and accolades by asking (or maybe insisting) if race played an issue? What if Stephen A Smith had done this?
I'm not trying to get real political here but I thought these recent examples related. There are many points of contention in what I just wrote and it's woefully disjointed and incomplete but I thought I'd throw out what jumped into my head after reading what all of you had contributed so far. I'm really not after the overtly political here but obviously this topic relates to all kinds of current political issues and questions.
by fatwansaboni on Apr 8, 2008 11:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Byron Scott said what????!!!!!
Folks get a grip. Give me a break....75% of the NBA players are black. What percentage of the coaches are black? What percentage of the owners are black?
I'm a white male, and I'm not even close to being offended by Scott's statements. Why? Because, I work for the public school system in a large urban area that serve predominately black and hispanic students. Guess what race disproportionally are employees of the school district...white! Don't even get me started about the administrators.
Where am I going with this? Well coaches are much like educators. And it is an advantage for both coaches and educators to reflect and relate culturally to their pupils. Now I know many of you are going to say, "what about Peja?" Maybe Scott should hire a Lithuanian coach?
As an aside, we in the white culture don't have to say it outloud like Scott did, because it is a fact that white people are hired at a higher rate for better jobs than other racial groups...and many of us, myself included benefit from this system. So, Scott is overtly trying to even the score a bit. I got no problem with it.
by JasonT on Apr 8, 2008 12:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
by CTBlazerfan on Apr 8, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are absolutely right that the NBA is
by JasonT on Apr 8, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we forget too
--Dave
by Dave on Apr 8, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe black
Yeah, there used to be plenty of all white coaching staffs, but that evolved from an early NBA that was composed mostly of white players.
What is bothersome to me is that Scott admitted a stated goal of having only black assistants and he'll get out of this with no reprimand whatsoever. If a white coach stated the same, he wouldn't last a day.
by TwoDeep on Apr 8, 2008 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
please annihilate this topic
Filtering what is humorous from what is serious is often tasking, especially here, when you expect the conversation to be somehow related to the Portland Trail Blazers and not some self-espoused gurical tribal vernacular singularly sufficed.
by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
But I don't think there is remotely anything wrong with the way the word was used here.
by jscot on Apr 9, 2008 2:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I understood the allusion
by BlazersOrBust on Apr 9, 2008 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Believe me ....
This political correctness stuff can really get me down. We're required to constantly tippy-toe and pussy-foot around with what we say so that none of those looking to be offended are. Jeesh.
by TwoDeep on Apr 9, 2008 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is it
Do you feel that a coach can not be a good coach unless he has played in the NBA, and all the current white coaches that didn't play in the NBA are only there because of racisim?
by usmcr3049 on Apr 9, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are great questions.
And no, I don't believe that white coaches who did not play in the NBA are there because of overt racism. However, you have to admit there is something that is causing a disproportionate number of white coaches to be hired. Consider that most NBA players are first and foremost celebrated for their athletic ability and second for their cerebral power. On the other hand, coaches are revered mostly for their intelligence and understanding of the game. So, by hiring a disproportionate number of white coaches are the folks who are hiring the coaches buying into some stereotype that says that black players are not as smart as white players? I'm not so sure if it's that simple, but it's something to think about.
by JasonT on Apr 9, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mathematically
How come we don't have more Hispanic coaches then? They're the largest minority, and no one seems to care about them.
LOL what a can of worms! Tom...dang you...
by jamon51 on Apr 14, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Racism and the NBA?
by Sabonis4Ever on Apr 8, 2008 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hybrid vigor
As to the case at hand, I have no problem with Byron Scott's desire for an all-black staff. Sure he made a mistake in admitting that desire publicly, especially considering that the law makes no distinction between discrimination and reverse discrimination. But after so many decades of all-white coaching staffs, how can you get up in arms over a guy putting the shoe on the other foot?
But I do think Scott is probably making a mistake strictly from a basketball standpoint. This is where the concept of "hybrid vigor" comes in. Modern NBA head coaches surround themselves with multiple assistants so that they'll get a wide variety of opinions and viewpoints. This gives them more options to choose from. So logically, you want your coaches to come from as diverse a set of backgrounds as possible.
Someone above mentioned the example of Bill Bayno--a white assistant on a black headcoach's staff who made an undeniable contribution. But it should be noted that Bayno is an unusual guy; he spent a lot of time playing in black schoolyards coming up, has a multi-racial family, and in general is something of a cultural hybrid. By contrast, Scott may have dealt with some white coaches in the past who had trouble relating to black players or even who were uncomfortable having a black boss.
So for Scott, the path of least resistance might be to avoid all those possible issues and just go with an all-black staff. I can understand that choice. I just think it's probably the wrong one. If you have the chance to hire a Bill Bayno, you hire him even if he's green and has little horns sprouting from his forehead. (Now THERE'S "hybrid vigor"!)
by hurryup09 on Apr 8, 2008 2:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Byron Scott
Maybe - just maybe - his coaching staff might have had a little something to do with that.
And, if that is the case, then maybe Scott's choice to staff his bench exclusively with African American coaches makes sense not just from a sociological standpoint, but from a competitive one.
Here in Portland, we hear a lot of talk about the importance of "culture" as a component of success on the basketball floor. Maybe Scott's decision is how he has opted to develop that culture for the Hornets. If he feels that an all black staff will create an environment more conducive to winning, can anyone here really fault him? Would it bug you if Nate made the same choice and wound up achieving similar results to Scott's? After all, isn't winning the ultimate validation for a decision of this sort?
Earlier in this thread, someone said that if the Hornets had been playing poorly, Scott and his coaches would be held accountable. That is true. But maybe they should also be accorded some credit for the success of a team that few expected to even make the playoffs this year.
by knickfan on Apr 8, 2008 2:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
My only question is this
by BlazersOrBust on Apr 8, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only snafu Scott made was to verbalize
by JasonT on Apr 8, 2008 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a fan, why should I care
All I really need to concern myself with are the results.
Most NBA teams are made up primarily of young black men. If Byron Scott or any other coach or GM feels that hiring coaches of similar ethnicities and backgrounds would be more conducive to creating a winning environment, then that should be his prerogative. If there was a team whose roster consisted mostly of white farmboys from Eastern Oregon and management thought they would have more success surrounding them with an all-white coaching staff, well, that would also be fine.
In either case, the onus is still on the coaching staffs to produce wins. If the Hornets hadn't enjoyed the success they've had this season, you can bet that Scott would've been crucified for running an affirmative action program or some such similar nonsense. But since his team has played so well and won, is it really fair to characterize Scott's coaching hires as simply the result of some racially-based vendetta?
Let's face it: As fans, we all tend to check our moral, social, and political beliefs and biases at the door when it comes to wins and losses. Just look no farther than those Dallas Cowboys fans who are currently salivating over the prospect of adding Pacman Jones to the team. The fact that Jones has been involved in several violent off-field incidents (one of which left a man paralyzed for life) is secondary to the fact that the team needs a good cornerback and kick returner. I'm guessing that many of those same Cowboy fans would probably not give Pacman a second chance if they had the chance to hire them for their own place of business. But they're all about giving him a second chance if it might help their team win an extra game or two.
Now, I'm not suggesting there's any moral equivalence between the race-based hiring of coaches and adding a mega-thug like Pacman Jones to your roster. That's not my point. I'm merely trying to illustrate the silliness of the expressions of moral outrage that I've read in this thread. You want to express condemantion over what Byron Scott did and said, fine. But I don't think many Hornet fans - white or black - are losing too much sleep over it. And if Nate McMillan decided to adopt Scott's strategy and the Blazers wound up with the best record in the Western Conference, I doubt many of you would be losing too much sleep over that either.
by knickfan on Apr 8, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
P.S.
by BlazersOrBust on Apr 8, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how do we create change?
lets see, how to create change... hmmm... how about if people stop bringing it up as an issue when it isnt?
give mankind some credit, when they are afforded better choices, they usually make them.
by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
raef gets run over
by bow4meow on Apr 8, 2008 7:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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