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Trade Talk

You can't help but notice the recent upswing in trade talk in the last few weeks.  It was rampant most of the season, frenzied (like every second comment and diary post) as the trading deadline approached, but we got a blessed respite from it after mid-February...until now.  As the open-season off-season approaches, everybody's keen minds are starting to get into high gear.

And why not?  If rumors are to be believed we may have some decent trading pieces in play.  It starts with Zach, of course, but our first round pick and Jarrett Jack have also gained momentum as possibilities.  Travis Outlaw could be in there.  (With what he's shown it's unlikely we'll let him walk away for nothing.  But we could match another team's offer--which almost has to be reasonable because of his combined talent and experience--and then look to deal him.)  Martell Webster could be in there.  Darius Miles could be...wait.  That's going too far.  For those of you who are hoping that Miles can be shipped, you can forget it.  Even packaging him with other talented players is like walking up to someone in a bar and saying, "Hey!  Wanna get lucky?  Oh and by the way I'll be giving you a pretty nasty STD along with the good stuff.  It's not fatal or anything, but you're going to spend the next three years treating it."  Uh huh.  You can sweet-talk all you want...it ain't gonna happen, Sparky.

Nevertheless, all the talk has got me considering seriously what, if anything, I'd want in return for some of these guys.  I haven't gotten down to specifics but I at least have a personal philosophy/strategy.

My assumption is that between the development of our youngsters--particularly Aldridge and Roy--and the caliber of player we should probably get from either the draft or trading the pick as part of a package, it's going to be relatively easy to get into position to contend for a lower playoff spot within the next couple years.  I'm not making light of that accomplishment or belittling it!  You need look no farther than Golden State to see what a challenge it can be.  But if we're talking a legit 20-point scorer for some combination of Zach/Jack/youngsters and the pick or a more modest return on players plus a nice piece through the draft if we keep the pick, I don't think saying playoff contention is a stretch with a couple years' seasoning.

However--and I have always thought this was the point we were missing in the midst of the current drought--just getting back to the playoffs is not a suitable goal, nor one to base a major, franchise-changing move on (which is what we're talking about with some of these assets).  The truth is--and hear me now and believe me later on this--at the end of the second year after you've made the show again just getting there will not be good enough.  After your second first-round playoff loss you will start asking, "What do we have to do to get past the first round?"  And if that doesn't happen you will start to say, "This stinks!  At least [Team X below us in the standings] gets a chance at [Insert college superstar here].  What do we get?"  Most people have the idea that playoff success is a progression because that makes logical sense.  You go from lottery team to first round playoff team to deeper playoff team to champion as if you were working your way up and paying your dues.  It doesn't usually work like that.  Look at Detroit...out of the playoffs entirely in '00-'01, conference semis the next year, conference finals after that, NBA champs after that.  Look at San Antonio...in the last nine years they've lost in the first round only once.   Now look at Minnesota...seven straight first round losses followed by one glorious spurt into the conference finals then total oblivion.

What's the point?  Even if we get a splashy name I'm not going to be satisfied with a trade that just gets us back into the playoffs.  More than talent has to match here.  The timing has to be right, the money has to be right, the skill set has to be right.  If it's a choice between:

A.  A flashy, 20-ppg scorer who has already peaked and is certainly going to get us into the playoffs but will be too far gone to be useful when we really need to make a run and...

B. Simply maneuvering for enough cap space to make a real move when we need to (even if that means missing the playoffs in the short term)...

I'll choose the cap space every time.

With the pieces we're talking about moving we simply cannot shoot for the first round here.  The really good teams announce their playoff presence by getting to the semis at least...yes, even in their first year, certainly by their second or third at the outside.  That means we need to be making moves right now planning for the conference finals and beyond.

As far as I can tell this means a couple of things:

  1.  The player we receive in return is going to have to be multi-faceted.  We already have too many guys who just hit one note and have to be compensated for elsewhere.  We already have too many guys who are potentially strong bench players but marginal starters.  We need somebody who's going to be able to bring it night in, night out in every situation against most any kind of matchup.
  2.  If we get a perimeter player shooting would be nice, some size and athleticism would be nice, but above all the guy must be able and willing to defend.  Despite some development this year this is still a huge weakness for us.
  3.  If we get a big guy they'll need some kind of bona fide offensive game--post, face-up, whatever, just something to rely on so we're not playing 4-on-5 out there.  This becomes more important if we're moving Zach in the process.  But they will also have to have competent defense and above all be able to grab defensive rebounds.
  4.  Age will be critical.  Obviously if you're trading (as opposed to drafting) you want someone older than our current guys.  It'll be OK if they're right at their peak or just slightly over in two years but still able to contribute some after that.  I don't think you can get someone who's sliding over their peak right now and starting on the downhill no matter how much they score or how big their name is.
  5.  If you can't get these things--or at least most of them--and especially if age is a factor then contract status becomes very, very important.  You cannot hamstring yourself during your prime target years with dead weight on the cap.  We're already paying Darius $9 million a year for the next three years.  That's not exactly a hand tied behind the back but what would that $9 million be able to do on the free agent market if freed up?  And I know that Brandon's and Lamarcus' run will extend far beyond three years but they will very quickly become very expensive to keep.  There's a window in there when they are still young and relatively cheap and our other contracts are expiring where we might be able to make a Chicago-like move for a key, star-level veteran.  You plop a $16 million contract in there for a guy whose name looks good on the marquee but who by that point is either too old or too one-dimensional to help us over the top and that all goes bye-bye.
I think this summer could be exciting.  Maybe Kevin Pritchard will be able to "shock the world" (though I'd rather see him do it first and then announce it than announce it first and then try to live up to it).  But if I'm going to be shocked, I want to be shocked, as in "Oh my God we just got the potential to be really, really, REALLY good!  Hold on, Portland!!!"  If that really, really good is two years down the line, fine.  I much prefer that to being pacified for the sake of the here and now.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

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I kind of agree
but we can't really look forward to having cap space for many years down the line, way too long to ever expect to be able to sign any frees for anything other than the MLE.  One of the reasons I'm all for trading zbo is that the cumulative impact of the contracts for zbo, raef, joel, and darius kills our cap, and zbo is the only one tradeable one of that group.

Frankly, I don't really see us being truly competitive until 2010 at least, and that's assuming we manage to build some very good talent out of drafts.  Our albatross contracts are too much of a boat anchor (raef, darius, and joel, principally, zbo's isn't an albatross since he can realistically be traded).

I actually really like the idea of trading for multiple good players rather than single all star players.  I've been thinking about it a lot this weekend, and I think I'd rather get a Nocioni + the Knick 2007 first round pick than a Rashard or a Paul Pierce for Zbo.  You don't need three allstars to be a contender; you need a couple plus a team stocked with quality contributers down to your 8th or 9th man.  I'd like to see Roy and LMA step up and show that they can be those allstars before we start trading for bold-type names.

by howlingfantods on Apr 16, 2007 10:53 AM PDT   0 recs

as far as specific players:
  1. ZBo - I want a trade for a solid defense/energy role player Nocioni type SF plus picks, or a sign and trade for a Gerald Wallace type two way player.

  2. JJ - I think he's talented, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't play well with Roy.  I don't think it's a coincidence that the more it's Roy's team, the worse JJ is, the more it's Zbo's team, the better JJ is.  I'd trade him for any reasonable offer.

  3. Outlaw - Trade him for anything we can get, or let him go for nothing.  He has 0 basketball IQ for all his physical talents, I wouldn't want him coming off my bench for a contending team.

  4. Ime.  Re-sign if we can for anything at all reasonable.  I wouldn't use up the full MLE on him obviously, but he's definitely worth a 4 year deal at around 3-4 mill/yr.

  5. Mags.  Let him go and take the cap savings.  He's probably going to get offers worth 6 mill/yr, we don't want to pay him that much.

by howlingfantods on Apr 16, 2007 11:06 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well
The Spurs were said to be interested in Outlaw as a bench energy/athletic guy.  So there's one top-flight team that would have used him.
- Sam

by Samuelson on Apr 16, 2007 2:48 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I have found...
through more than ten years of fantasy basketball that I am very good at picking talent to begin with but really bad at figuring out who to trade for whom.  This is why you rarely see me doing a lot of trade speculating, I suck at it.

I feel very strongly that we need one very solid veteran.  Not necessarily to start, but to provide all the intangibles that only a true quality veteran can.  Udoka came very close to being that player this year, but he can't tell the guys what it's like to make the playoffs or even to win it all.  I think we need someone (besides Zach) who can.

The name that keeps popping to mind is Jon Barry, but I suspect there are 30 or so players who could fit this bill.

by ken on Apr 16, 2007 12:16 PM PDT   0 recs

Do you mean Brent?
Because Jon isn't even in the league anymore and averaged under 6 a game for his career.

Of course knowing Grandpa K's age he could be thinking of Rick.  Underhanded free throws for all!

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 16, 2007 12:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

One of those guys...
You people joke all you want, old age sucks.  Did I mention I'll be ::mumble mumble:: on Wednesday?

Wait!  Rick is retired????

by ken on Apr 16, 2007 12:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh my goodness
I had forgotten that young man.  I just looked him up in an old media guide.  He was the 14h pick and he'd played all of 19 min. when we traded him for Duckworth. Turns out to have been a good draft decision after all.  (There has to be more to that story - what have I forgotten? Was he not too interested in exerting himself?)

by jorga on Apr 16, 2007 4:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Him threatening
his teammate with a butter knife at dinner had something to do with it.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 16, 2007 8:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And, by the way...
I think anyone over 6'11" who isn't named Dirk could probably benefit from shooting underhand free throws.

by ken on Apr 16, 2007 12:31 PM PDT   0 recs

Buyer's Market
KP has got a lot of balls in the air for this draft. Much as I enjoy thinking along GM lines, I know my limitations. The thought of balancing that many variables and subjective evaluations is just mind-boggling. Having said that, here's my 2 cents.

  1. Big push to get Lewis from Seattle! I know that's going to be on KPs list of "things to do", but I wanted to make sure he knew he had my blessing. He's a Nate guy which means he won't need to go through the year of break-in. Untouchables = Roy, LMA. I can't see another FA out there that appeals. I would over-pay a bit to gain the intangibles he offers.

  2. 2nd rounders as chips. Although we have three 2nd round picks, we don't have the roster room to keep four new players without cutting contracted players. NBDL is an option to park two picks, but I'd rather use the picks to either move up in the draft or facilitate a trade for a quality veteran.

  3. Let Mags go with a hand shake. A true professional, but not a future Blazer. Save the money.

  4. Cut bait on Trout. I love the guy's intensity, but that doesn't mean he's playing smart. Without a brain, you're utility is too limited. Sorry. A sign and trade might get us something in return for all those years waiting for his "potential" to pay off. Draft pick(s) and cash would be great. Maybe a cheap vet with a brain.

  5. Get some sleep. Just the thought of trying to manage all this in about one month just makes me want to cry. Draft Lottery = May 22nd. Draft = June 28th. He's got one month from the time he finds out where our first round pick is going to be to work out the players, personally meet the top 10-15 players, propose and assess any trade offers, talk team with Nate and Paul, get input from the current players, lay the foundation for the draft war-room, and get his team running in the right direction. No problem.  

  6. Re-sign Ime! He may only be a bench player next season, but he's a smart glue-guy with heart. You can't have enough of that.

Didn't mean to ramble there, Dave. I had to vent a bit of my excitement. I had a dream we got the #2 pick in the draft. I don't think I can wait a month to find out where we'll pick for real.

by Steve The Hedge on Apr 16, 2007 12:37 PM PDT   0 recs

Rambling on this site
is always encouraged.

--Dave

by Dave on Apr 16, 2007 12:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I like your point about the 2nd rnd picks.
I'm very curious to see what KP will do with them.

I slightly disagree about Mags. I was unimpressed most of the season, but I really liked the way he played with LMA when Zach went down. If we are able to trade Zach, I think he's worth signing for the right price/years.

by JMblazerfan on Apr 16, 2007 1:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You forgot...
7.  Get Tonya Harding to break Darius' other knee so he'll finally get the hint and retire.

by DonkeyShins on Apr 16, 2007 4:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

KEVIN GARNETT!!!!!
Anyone but Roy And LMA.  Seriously I bet Kevin McHale would take Z-Bo and JJ for him.

by OBF on Apr 16, 2007 12:55 PM PDT   0 recs

I don't know
there are some serious miles on him and I don't think he's anywhere near the saint he's made out to be.  As great a player as he's been, he's still failed to take his team anywhere and the huge paycheck on the downside of his career isn't worth it.

Just my two pennies, that and a quarter gets you a phone call.

by TP43 on Apr 16, 2007 2:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

actually...
I believe phone calls are fifty cents now.  Sorry... no phone call for you.

by ratbastird on Apr 16, 2007 4:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Pritchard has said....
that something big will happen. I think one of the players alluded that Kevin has "big plans." If anything, it certainly adds to the drama.

by ColoradoBlazerFan on Apr 16, 2007 2:32 PM PDT   0 recs

It looks like Portland will have four 2nd rounders
They should move 2 of those for a future first and the others for more future 2nds and something else.  Keep trading producing somethings out of nothings.
- Sam

by Samuelson on Apr 16, 2007 2:52 PM PDT   0 recs

Moves
  1. Trade Zach for Pau Gasol.  He's a better shotblocker (but equally poor defender) and has been known to pass the ball.  He is mature and would help Sergio fit in.
  2. Draft a good SF.  Durant would be nice, but Brewer seems Ok.
  3. Since Miles is an untradeable albatross, when he is healthy, what is difference bteween him and Outlaw?  So, don't resign Outlaw.
  4. Resign Udoka.  He has specialist skills- ie he can defend and shoot the three,  The Blazers need some specialists on the bench- not just inferior players to the starters.
5)
 Blazers would have following team:
PG JJ/Sergio/Dickau
SG Roy/ jones/
SF #1 draft/ Udoka/Miles
Gasol/ Freeland/ Miles
Aldridge/Przybila/ Lafrentz

by moved away on Apr 16, 2007 3:05 PM PDT   0 recs

Miles and Outlaw
The difference between a healthy Miles and Outlaw is that Travis is a good guy and Darius is a locker-room cancer. Nate is probably thanking his lucky stars that he only needs minimal contact with Darius at this point.

by rockingharder on Apr 16, 2007 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Ripe for a move
I've been stewing on this scenario for a while now, although I'm not totally sure how plausible it is:
getting Emeka Okafor.
Any combination of Zbo, Outlaw, Jack, Webster, or our first-round pick (as long as it's not 1-3) to pry away Okafor from Charlotte would be sick.  Assuming Charlotte drafts high this year, they are in a position of having lots of young assets without a strong veteran presence on their team.  Maybe we could fool them into thinking Zbo could be that presence.  
Locking up Lamarcus, Okafor, and Roy as a foundation to build around would make us competitive for years to come; it would be like our own version of having D Rob and Duncan, not to mention Roy (he doesn't really fit into the Spurs analogy).  Gerald Wallace and Rashard Lewis can't offer that.

by bballgenius on Apr 16, 2007 3:07 PM PDT   0 recs

Yes.
You're right: Having Okafor would be sick. I bet KP could trade ZBO, Jack, Webster and a combo of our #1 pick and one or more second rounders for Okafor and Charlotte's #1 pick (as long as neither of the first-rounders are 1-3).

What if Charlotte wins the lottery? I think that would make this scenario more likely. Just take the first round picks out. Charlotte can take Oden to replace Okafor, and Portland can hopefully end up with Brewer.

by rockingharder on Apr 16, 2007 4:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hm
When I see this:

#  If we get a big guy they'll need some kind of bona fide offensive game--post, face-up, whatever, just something to rely on so we're not playing 4-on-5 out there.  This becomes more important if we're moving Zach in the process.  But they will also have to have competent defense and above all be able to grab defensive rebounds. #

...I think...Magloire?? He's a good defensive rebounder, his offensive game is adequate (better than Joel's), and he plays decent D. And he's an enforcer. If he's available for a reasonable salary (4 mil at most) resign him.

by jamon51 on Apr 16, 2007 3:52 PM PDT   0 recs

I'd keep Mags
for 3 mill/yr, maybe even 4 for a shorter contract (2 or 3 years), but I'm pretty sure he'll get more than that in the open market.  Some GM out there is going to be desperate for a moderately skillful banger and overpay wildly for his services.  It doesn't take much talent when you're 6'11"+ 250+ to get a full MLE in this league.

by howlingfantods on Apr 16, 2007 5:09 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

TRADE
With Jermaine O'neal getting more and more unhappy in Indy, why not bring him back in a 1 for 1 (or throw in a couple of our 2nd rounders?). O'Neal's girfriend and kid are here and Zach is an Indy boy....could we swing this?
"I don't know what it is man, but you can put your weed in it!"... rasheed to damon while checking damon's new house

by kevingiard1 on Apr 16, 2007 5:35 PM PDT   0 recs

Trade with Philly seeming like a solid option....
I have read some others promote the idea of trading with Philly as they are in need of a PF (Z-bo) and they are stuck with the 12th and 21st draft picks in the first round, missing the all the top PF's in the draft. Well, after reviewing the options with a trade with Philly here is a potential scenario that would continue to build Portland's championship future:

Blazers trade PF Zach Randolph, PG Jarrett Jack, 2007 picks 2-12 & 2-22 to

76ers for PG Andre Miller, G Kevin Ollie, 2007 picks 1-12, 1-21, and 2-8

Blazers could draft a big man and a great small forward (6-Brewer/12-Spencer or 6-Hibbert/12-Thornton) plus at the 21 spot Portland could pick up a scorer (G Rodney Stuckey to ultimately replace Miller)or tough big man role player (Splitter, McRoberts, or Gasol) then Portland would also have back to back 2nd's at 2-7 & 2-8, still great quality to build our roster with character, work ethic, and talent.

The 76ers would get the low-post play they need to help thier perimeter play with Iguodala, Rodney Carney, and Kyle Korver playing the 2&3.  They already have Dalembert at center, decent FC backup Steven Hunter, and Jack to run the point.

We get Miller who is an 8-year vet and a seemingly decent guy and solid fit with B-Roy to share the court with.  However, we don't get any proven NBA scoreres like Dave thinks we need.  We stay very young and have the ability to totally build a young core.  With Ime, Webster, and Outlaw still around we could still wait two years for whatever SF we draft to truly breakout.  

I preach patience with these Blazers, we are looking for a championship team not a shot at the playoffs.  If we need to stay young for one or two more years, we can leverage the "best draft class in years" AND get the cap control needed to keep our key players together for a 6 to 8 season run, we need to do it.  

With Nate and KP drafting 2007 with picks 1-6, 1-12, 1-21, and 2-7 + 2-8 we get at least one star and two great team-players to go with Roy, Aldridge, Sergio, Outlaw, Webster, Pryz and Andre Miller.

by Scotty the Mastermind on Apr 23, 2007 1:01 PM PDT   0 recs

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