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Pull pin...count to two...toss...

OK, since we have a couple days off from games, let's go ahead and light it up.  We've all been dancing around this topic in subtle ways for the last couple months and it's time to bring it out in the open.

The Blazers are 4-0 without Zach this season.  They are 9-13 without Brandon Roy.

Which player is more important to this year's squad?

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

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Brandon Roy, silly!
No offense to Zach's game, especially his considerable improvements and better-than-before comeback from microfracture surgery, as his scoring and rebounding are important to any team.  But he is not a playmaker in any shape or form.

The ball goes in his hand, and he can score, but he can't ALSO create and help make others better.  If you go into him too much (as the Blazers often do), the offense stalls and others don't get involved enough.  This feeds into the anti-Zach squads belief that he is a black hole, but Zach wants to score and if you keep giving him the ball he will keep trying to score.

Roy has to make a effort to be a scorer like that, and usually turns it on when needed, and otherwise is looking for other's shots along with his own.  His playmaking is the key to the improved Blazer team, and necessary for our success.

So whereas Roy is MORE important to the Blazers, it doesn't mean Zach is useless.  A dominant low post scorer and rebounder is a luxury these days, and Roy and Zach have decent chemistry.  Zach's trust in Roy has helped make it easier for him to pass the ball, and having another offensive weapon in Roy makes things easier for Zach, and vice versa.  It would be even easier for Zach to score if eventually he becomes adept at passing out of a double team.  

The problem is that we make Zach the focal point of the offense, when he should be a second or third option on a successful team.  When we need halfcourt scoring and Roy can't create something, then we could dump it into Zach and see what happens.  But doing that as our first option is not only un-entertaining basketball, it slows the offense down and doesn't help others get in any kind of offensive flow.

Zach was the MVP of the first half of the season, but now that we're reaching the end it's clear that Roy is far and away our MVP.

LaMarcus's recent awakening and dominant play on both ends of the court doesn't hurt either... We have no replacement for what Brandon Roy does when he is gone, but we have a great fill in for Zach that is currently better at certain things that really help the team, and will probably be better at the things Zach does best.  If Zach was traded, as long as we weren't ripped off, most fans would understand and move on immediately, eager to start the Aldridge/Roy era.  I can't see anyone understanding losing Roy...

Mortimer  

by Mortimer on Mar 27, 2007 12:25 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

for real
<quote> I can't see anyone understanding losing Roy...</quote>

It would be like that Dawn of the Dead remake.  Trailblazers fans would be the fast zombies.  Management would be the doomed humans.

Friday the 13th/walking down Elm Street/ Come in my realm you get beat

by JPop on Mar 27, 2007 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

how do you
get the dark gray shaded box?  I'm dumb.
Friday the 13th/walking down Elm Street/ Come in my realm you get beat

by JPop on Mar 27, 2007 1:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like this...
Copy this exactly, replacing only the "insert text here" with the material you're quoting:

<div class="blockquote"> insert text here </div>

--Dave

by Dave on Mar 27, 2007 1:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

a tale of two halves
To the All star break, Zach was clearly the most important player on the team.  Since then, not so much.  
Strippergate is a non issue to me, but the lack of defense and Zach's growing frustration with the officials is worrying.  I get frustrated sometimes too, just like Zach but I'm not a team captain and I don't make 12 million a year or whatever.  Zach is and does.  So play like it dude.    
Roy has become the most important player to this team by being whatever we need him to be.  Need a scorer? He does that.  Need ball movement? Not a problem.  Need 12 rebounds out of your 2 guard?  No sweat.  He is the deluxe swiss army knife of basketball players.  No holes in his game and the brass ones to take the shots when we really need them, make or miss.  Roy for president.
Friday the 13th/walking down Elm Street/ Come in my realm you get beat

by JPop on Mar 27, 2007 1:02 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Okay
I wouldn't say "no holes in his game," but pretty damn close :)

by damir on Mar 27, 2007 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bingo!
Hit the nail on the head. Last night was particularly frustrating watching Zach. C'MON! That game was there for the taking! DEFENSE!

by rburg on Mar 27, 2007 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

hmmm
So they've won 9 of 13... that's four losses.

Zach has four losses...
9/13 is MUCH better than our current average...

Maybe we should get rid of Zach AND Roy.

I'll wait until i see the blazers play in SLC again before I comment on this.  I need to see the flow and chemistry in person (no tv and I don't live in portland)

by ratbastird on Mar 27, 2007 3:43 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that's...
9 and 13, not 9 of 13, correct me if I'm wrong.

by ken on Mar 27, 2007 4:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would make more sense
I havent really paid attention, but that would make more sense.

I think Zach WAS bad for the team, but i'm hearing positive things now so i really can't say until i see him play.

I think the only way to really know for sure is to leave zach out the rest of the season.

Personally, i'd like our team to be awesome with the both of them and would like there to not be a NEED to pick.

by ratbastird on Mar 27, 2007 5:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was definitely
9-13 = 9 wins and 13 losses in 22 games in 13, just like 4-0 didn't mean 4 wins in 0 games, it meant 4 wins and 0 losses in 4 games.

by drawingjeremy on Mar 27, 2007 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Roy is...
Zach was.

Was this ten words or less?  :)

by ken on Mar 27, 2007 4:52 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yep.
Roy.  He gets his teammates involved and plays defense.  AND, he's harder to stop as a scorer.  If he were a more effective scorer alone, that would make him more valuable, but he does an absolute ton of other things.  About the only thing Zach does better than Roy unequivocally is offensive rebound, and like you (I think) said, that stat is overrated because it means you're not getting back on defense.  No one gets back on defense worse than Zach, in the entire league.

Zach sometimes looks like he has his priorities in the right place, but then lets us all know better.  Roy's make him another coach on the court.  And then, if that wasn't enough, he's forthcoming and honest, but tactful during interviews.

by ranma on Mar 27, 2007 6:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

4-0 vs 9-13...
...some of that disparity is due to frontcourt vs backcourt dynamics, but give Ken (above) a gold star. He said it all in four words.
"...though you may fail...aim at something high." Henry David Thoreau

by Dr Dave on Mar 27, 2007 7:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

As long as the question is specifically . . .
 . . . which one is"more important to this year's squad?"

I'd go Zach.
He's just responsible for a lot of single-handed wins from earier in the season.
Without that, we're into Memphis/Boston territory by the All-Star break,
and I don't think everyone and everything else develops like it has in that sort of failed year.

That said, of course Brandon Roy is more important to the squad
as it stands now (which I regard as "this OFF-season's squad"),
and is more important to the future of the team.

Or, in other words: Zach gets the honor, and never will again.

Tell 'em Large Marge sent ya.

by QualityPie on Mar 27, 2007 8:11 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Roy
because he's mr. do it all clutch-o-matic. Zbo's important offensively to the team, but I think the team is starting to learn how to score without him. Roy can get 20 points, Aldridge can get you alot of points, Jack can score some, Sergio creates for everybody. And without him our defense is much better (except for perimeter shooting because people seem to light us up on 3's). So I'd say Roy.
ROY for R.O.Y.

by junit3123 on Mar 27, 2007 8:55 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

now's the time
to trade zach, his stock has never been higher. roy/aldridge/sergio are the future of this team, and that future could start next year if we could get a solidly defending PF or C in trade for zach, who can run the court and pound the boards (not that zach doesn't pound the boards, of course a lot of his rebounds are off his own misses, but i digress). i, like everyone here, has noticed his tremendous improvement from the last few years, BUT i think that skews our judgement of him--yes, he has improved greatly, but i think in the end he still does more to hurt this team than help it. The offense just stops moving when he gets the ball. he still holds it too long and takes too many bad shots. the young-ins have proved we don't need to run our offense through zach, and we don't need to score through zach, it's his time to move on.

by sergioFTW on Mar 27, 2007 9:39 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Roy
But Zbo has been great this year.

The thing is that Roy makes Zach better.  The reason Zbo's a black hole on offense when Roy's not in the game is there is no real second option other than Roy.  What's a better percentage shot or opportunity for free throws?  Zach driving into a double team or passing to Martell or Travis?  With Roy on the team, Zbo is finally starting to trust his team enough to pass out of double and triple teams.

Roy was missed by the PGs too.  Lord knows having another ball handler in the second half of the Bulls game would've made a world of difference.  Roy's absence really exposed JJ and Sergio's deficiencies.

Long term, Roy is definitely more valuable.  I see him as a 25/7/5 guy in two years, when he stops getting the rookie treatment from the officials.  But that's not to take anything away from Zbo -- I wouldn't let him go for less than 80 to 90 cents on the dollar.

by howlingfantods on Mar 27, 2007 9:39 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Amen
Last night showed how much better Roy makes Jack look. Jack is a second-string point guard. I'd rather have Dickau out there--he's experienced, knows how to set up the offense, and won't turn it over on a consistent basis when he's pushing the ball up against a press. And he plays with his head up, unlike Jack.

by jamon51 on Mar 27, 2007 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

B-Roy...
Zach carried us earlier in the year, but now that B-Roy and the Sheriff are coming into their own, B-Roy is the main cog that balances out the offensive attack and provides another solid perimeter defender.  The Sheriff can provide low post scoring, albeit not as much as Zach, and plays better defense.  There is not another player on Portland that comes close to Roy's effectiveness at his position.  

Who do you think will participate in Summer League this year?

by JasonT on Mar 27, 2007 10:24 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Dave, you can always use plus/minus
Randolph blows Roy out of the water. Tyrus Thomas actually makes a positive contribution to the Bulls, if any Aldridge-is-so-much-better-we-really-fleeced-a-playoff-team-who-wanted-an-athletic-power-forward -slash-future-Lebron-Stopper people are curious.

by Tyrus Thomas on Mar 27, 2007 10:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

no question, it's Roy
Zach does two things, hogs the ball and bogs down the offense, and gets offensive boards. Alridge can easily replace that. Roy does many things well including hit clutch shots, he is irreplacable.

by seattleblazer on Mar 27, 2007 10:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Let's not forget who we played
in the games Zach missed. The Wiz, Knicks, Hawks, and Raptors (Roy missed that game too).

Not exactly the cream of the NBA crop.

That said, I believe Zach is more important to this years team. He still draws the double every time he touches the ball, and when his head is in the game is extremely valuable. We might not have more wins than last season without his contributions. That's not to say that Zach is more important than Roy looking forward. But I think the oppositions gameplans and scouting reports are focused on Zach, and playing without him provided us with an element of surprise against poor competition.

I am a big fan of Nate's, I think he has been instrumental in changing the culture of the team, and, as such, it pains me to say this:

Perhaps, our 4-0 record without Zach is an indictment of Nate's gameplans and our predictable offense.

by Bretski on Mar 27, 2007 12:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

hmmm...
Perhaps this could be expanded to query about who we think will be more important next year, seeing as Aldridge overtook Roy in the cornerstone poll on the homepage, right-hand side
Oh, Nancy! The Superpan is not magical, it will burn you.

by supremepuntiff on Mar 27, 2007 5:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Oh,
and I agree that it's Roy, at least for the 2nd half.  Zach's got moves, but Roy has moves of his own, leadership, and most of all consistency from game to game to boot.  Cannot emphasize how important the last two have been to so young a team.
Oh, Nancy! The Superpan is not magical, it will burn you.

by supremepuntiff on Mar 27, 2007 5:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Do you remember
When The Blazers were on a four game (or something) winning streak and then Brandon came back and we lost four or five staright? I do. I dont think this conversation is looking in the right direction. Chemistry is what wins ball games. Sometimes we have it sometimes not. Sometimes Zach is the most important player, sometimes Roy. It matters what the D is giving us and who is aware of how to take it. Sometimes its LaMarcus. Sometimes Jack. Those record stats were loaded Dave.
Roy is fantastic..........sometimes. So is Zach..........sometimes.
From what Ive seen, Zach has been purposefully deferring the second half of the season. He led the team is assists two night ago and had 5 last game. He also has a whole mess of turnovers because he was trying to be more of a player that he's not (one with court vision) I think he liked what he saw when he was gone and tried not to rock the boat. Zach needs to do what Zach is good at.......offensive tunnel vision. Ball, basket......2 points.

by DropstepJ on Mar 27, 2007 8:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't buy that last part
I believe in the chemistry and stats skewed part of your post, but I don't buy that Zach needs to be "offensive tunnel vision" man.  I strongly believe for the Blazers to be a winner with Zach, he needs to learn to pass (not there yet, but better) or he needs to drop to #2 or #3 on the offensive option chart.  You can't just have your #1 guy be so predictable and win on a consistent basis unless he is just WAY BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE.  I just don't think Zach is good enough to do that on a regular basis.  If he just took the ball and went to work I might agree with you, but he holds it for 5+ seconds every time he touches it.
I'm the smartest guy I know, just ask me.

by shenanigans on Mar 27, 2007 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ditto
ohh, and Roy but Zach has had hands down the best year of his career.

by drawingjeremy on Mar 27, 2007 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Zach would
be a motion guy, he could be a beast receiving passes off of Roy and LaMarcus double teams (presuming they become all they can be).  He could be NASTY to defend because when he gets the ball in position to shoot he has a lighting release.  I would love to see him do some of that.
I'm the smartest guy I know, just ask me.

by shenanigans on Mar 27, 2007 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only problem is
Lamarcus and Roy arent getting double teamed.
Look, these guys are rookies. That means that defensive players are learning how to play these guys. They're just starting to compile and watch tape of these guys before they play the Blazers.
This year they're off the hook. Zach had a breakout year too, where everything seemed to come easy. Well these NBA teams prepare HARD for these games. When they do the game plan is usually to throw two or three guys at Zach. Why? because he's that dangerous....and he's not a great passer.  Im not saying Zach should be the center of the offense, but if you have a problem with that, talk to the coach. Zach didnt design this offense, McMillon did. Zach is just trying to execute.

I think its Nates job to find an offense that accommodates our growing options. He has not found that yet. The solution is not to throw LaMarcus into Zach's sets. Its to incorporate all of them in an offense that has more options.
Zach is a beast, he's our beast, now lets use him.

by DropstepJ on Mar 28, 2007 1:46 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry
but have you been watching games this month?  Roy's definitely started to see doubleteams.  The smarter teams are throwing him deny the ball offense at half-court.

The book on the Blazers is pretty much completely clear now.  Double Zbo, and keep your hands up so he can't see over you to pass to an open guy, and disrupt offensive flow by harassing Roy.  Let JJ, Ime, Travis, and DD shoot as much as they want.

Not all teams are doing this, like the very poor defensive teams like the Knicks that we beat in our last win streak, but the better teams definitely are.

by howlingfantods on Mar 29, 2007 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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