Blazersedge Mailbag, February 23rd, 2012: Young Guys, Playing Time, Przy, and More
Thank goodness the Blazers have an 8-day break from games because I haven't had the chance to answer mailbag questions since the beginning of the season. I'll try to play catch-up as much as I can this week while still getting in some things I want to talk about.
Dave,
Why in the name of Bill Walton's Ghost is Nate not playing the young guys? Anybody can see that the season is going down the tubes. Elliot Williams and Nolan Smith are the future! Getting them playing time now makes the franchise better later. That's more important than 2 or 3 wins even if you can argue that Felton and Crawford are bringing the team that much.
I'm not sure everyone would agree that the season is either lost or fated to be mediocre, particularly not the guys in red and black or their coach. I get the feeling that both players and coach are looking at the names on Portland's jerseys and thinking that this team should win. In any case, until upper management signals a change in direction towards rebuilding--either by announcing it or by shuffling the roster--the coach's job is to win as many games as he can, period. Heck, even in rebuilding mode you don't want to put many priorities higher than winning. In general the people playing should always be the people who give the team the best chance to win. The players you mentioned have talent but it's not overwhelming Brandon Roy/Greg Oden/LaMarcus Aldridge potential. (And even Aldridge played behind Zach Randolph his first year, if you recall.) Plus this is their first year playing in the league. Plus it's a season that allows for little, if any, organized practice. They've no doubt been drilling on their individual games. Each has shown improvement. But those drills are no substitute for running the sets with the players they'll actually be alongside on the court. It's ironic that the compressed schedule increases the need for younger bench players to contribute while at the same time making it harder for them to do so.
Most folks want to make his kind of decision in a vacuum. Coaches don't have that luxury. They have to deal with a team full of real people playing in a culture advancing assumptions and priorities that most of us don't consider.
Two forms of currency in the NBA transcend all barriers: money and playing time. These are the two reasons people play the game, to get paid and to get on the court. Money is a powerful motivator, especially when you're on your rookie contract and you see everyone else making serious dough. But most veterans with claim to starting or playing decent bench roles have made some. They're not getting Kobe money, but even $4-5 million per year will set you up pretty well when spread out over a four year deal or more. Once the season starts and the contracts are signed, playing time becomes the currency of the realm. It's the key to respect within the league, fame outside of it, and of course that next contract. In a very real sense minutes on the floor become a player's salary...their immediate reward for producing.
Imagine you had worked 30 years on the job (the rough equivalent of your 8-year veteran in the league) when your boss came in to have this conversation:
Boss: "Hey, sit down. Look, we respect what you're doing for this company and we need you to keep producing, but Jim over there is one of our up-and-comers. He's important to our future. I hope you don't mind but while he's getting some on-the-job training we're going to give him half of your paycheck."
You: "You're going to pay him half as much as I get, you mean?"
Boss: "No, we're going to cut your paycheck in half and give the money you were making to him."
You: "What? Wait...does he produce more than me? Is he trained better than me? Is he doing more for the company?"
Boss: "No, but we think he will someday. We need to get him some experience and make sure he's happy here."
You: "But I've been here 30 flippin' years! I could run circles around this guy! I've worked hard for this money!"
Boss: "I know...I know. But come on, be a team player."
So...OK. How are you going to react? There's no [word not allowed on Blazersedge] way you're going to be happy with this. Even if you stayed with the company they're going to get no more than half your usual effort. If you can find another job, you're SO out of there. If not, you're going to sit in a corner, sulk, and rip them off in any way you can. You're not keeping quiet about this either! All of those other 30-year guys need to know how this company is treating you, that it doesn't value experienced guys and effort and earning your check, that they could be next. How are they going to take that? You might not see open mutiny, but you'll get plenty of muttering, shaking heads, and morale issues. And hey, what kind of reception is Jim-Just-Stole-Your-Paycheck going to get from all of those veteran co-workers when he shows up in the office? That's not going to be a healthy environment for him either.
This scenario rears its ugly head when you suggest playing a young guy over a veteran because it would be "better for the team in the long run." It can be done, but that young guy better evidence a world of talent and help his team demonstrably. Either that of you better have told the vet when you signed him that he was keeping the place warm for the rookie and playing that veteran mentor role. Neither of those scenarios are happening here. Instead Portland's veterans are going to react just like you would if you try on their shoes. You wouldn't like your money being taken away and given to a less-deserving person who hadn't been around as long as you. They don't like their playing time being taken away in that manner either. Therefore the bar for making such a move is exponentially higher for the coach than it is for folks looking at the situation in the abstract.
(P.S. I know it's going to confuse some folks that I'm equating salary to playing time when NBA players make salaries in addition to playing, but it's the correct correlation if you want to understand what this feels like to veteran players and the dynamics in play. The closest thing someone could take from you that feels the same as taking playing time from a player is your money.)
Dave,
Why did the Smiths (Nolan and Craig) fall out of the rotation? I thought they played well! Nate's decisions seem crazy to me sometimes.
Two separate issues are at work here.
For Nolan the problem was the rotation ahead of him. Jamal Crawford, Raymond Felton, Wesley Matthews, Nicolas Batum, and Gerald Wallace all need to play effectively and get minutes somewhere. At the beginning of the year that looked like Felton, Matthews, and Wallace starting while Crawford and Batum came off the bench at shooting guard and small forward. Crawford also played a little point but N. Smith still had some wiggle room. Smith didn't do badly, especially for a rookie. Unfortunately for him the other players did a square dance of chaos. Batum played so well that he merited more minutes. That shoved the other guys out of their time. They, in turn, shoved others. When the dominoes stopped falling Smith was at the end. And really, it's hard to argue he should be playing ahead of the veterans, even when the vets aren't performing that well. None of these guys are really maxed out minute-wise. If more minutes come open because somebody's playing poorly, they'll be spent topping off guys like Crawford or Matthews instead of going to Smith, particularly as the team makes a run towards the playoffs. But that's not a permanent condition. Wait a year and see what happens. Personnel, if not direction, are likely to change. That'll open up more room for Nolan Smith.
Craig Smith worked his way into the rotation by rebounding. The problem was, once he got ensconced he forgot what got him there. His rebounding rate started going down as his shot attempts increased. His defense slipped as well. For a few games there it looked like all he wanted to do was get the ball in the low post and score. Granted the Blazers need some of that, but Smith isn't going to carry the scoring load for this team. The team needs him to crash the boards and intimidate. Scoring is a bonus. Becoming a black hole is a definite no-no, especially if you're not fulfilling your primary duties. So Smith went back to the drawing board. He'll get more chances, though.
Click through for questions about Joel Przybilla, closers, and the not-so-hidden cost of Linsanity.
Dave,
I'll be the first to ask. How much better does Joel Przybilla make this team?
Marginally. But the team so needs another big body that marginally may be enough.
I went on record early in the season saying that the money move for Portland was finding the NEXT Joel Przybilla, not the last one. Under-appreciated centers are hard to find. I assume they never found anyone who satisfied them. But anyone who saw Przybilla play the last couple years should know that 2012 Joel won't be the 2004 version. And yes, it was 8 years ago that Przy first came to this team. Consider that as you factor in the benefit.
But hey...7-foot is 7-foot. If he can give 10 minutes per game with a little defense and rebounding the Blazers will have come out ahead. They may need more Jamal Crawford dribble magic to get open shots while he's on the floor, though.
Dave,
Where does this idea come from that you need a "closer" who "can create his own shot"? Is that REALLY better than running your normal offense (i.e., for the Blazers, through Aldridge)? If so, why wouldn't the Blazers, or Mavs, or Clippers, or Magic, just ignore their star big men and rely on their guards the whole game? Or if not, why not run the late-game offense the same as the rest-of-the-game offense?
Would love your thoughts on that question. I am totally not a fan of 1-on-1 isolation basketball, and I cringe when I see this behavior at the ends of games.
The idea comes from getting the ball into the hands of your best player in that situation and letting him decide the game either with a shot or by commanding so much defensive attention that somebody else is free. A closer has three irreplaceable attributes:
- The ability to dribble and "get his own shot" as you mentioned. This is crucial because defenses will be keyed in during game-deciding situations. If a player can't move the ball or can't get a shot up after moving the ball a defense will find cutting off both him and any passes ridiculously easy. Consider former Blazers and Bulls guard Steve Kerr. Dead-eye shot. Won a world title for the Bulls with a three-pointer. He'd never be considered a good closer because he couldn't dribble into a decent shot. If you're a defender you're going to get right up on him when the game's on the line. What's he going to do if he dribbles around you? Skill and talent aren't enough. You have to threaten in multiple ways to keep the defense off guard.
- The ability to actually hit a shot when he gets it.
- The desire to step up in pressure situations. This one is underrated. Some people light up when you put a camera on them. Some shrink away in fear. It's the same when you toss guys the ball for the critical shot. A few relish the opportunity. Most say, "Oh crap!" and either pass it or rush a miss.
If you don't have at least one guy like this on your team you'll have a hard time disrupting the defense enough to get a clean look. It's not that a guy has to play 1-on-1 and be selfish in order to make the play. Rather you have to make the defense commit somewhere in order to free up the shot. If they don't have to worry about anybody doing these three things they can keep a man on each player and cover every possibility. If they know a closer can beat his man 1-on-1 they have to make a choice: send help to stop him and risk someone else getting open or try to defend straight up and risk him winning the game over an over-matched defender.
You mentioned four teams. Dirk Nowitzki is the closer for the Mavericks. He can dribble, he can pass, he has that nearly-unstoppable step-back jumper, and he's an MVP-level talent. This shows that closers don't have to be guards, as you seem to suggest. Chris Paul will be the closer for the Clippers right now. Blake Griffin doesn't have the fundamentals nor as much offensive range. But Chris Paul will also look to get someone else the ball if they have a better shot. This shows that the closer himself doesn't always have to take it. Sometimes the 1-on-1 ability is used to set up something else. Without that 1-on-1 ability, though, the other option wouldn't be open. Dwight Howard is not a closer for the Magic because of critical holes in his game. His range is limited, and he can't hit a foul shot. As soon as he catches the ball the opponent is just going to swarm and hack him. In this case the Magic wouldn't be better off running their normal offense for him. If he shot 90% from the foul line or could score away from the hoop it might be a different story.
The critical question for our purposes, of course, is the Blazers. LaMarcus Aldridge is their best talent by far. He can score from range but he's bad off the dribble. He'd make a great option if the opponent single-covers but they're likely to deny him and keep an extra man close even before he gets the ball. That's why he needs other threats on the floor with him. One solution would be to surround him with deadeye shooters so he could loft a pass to the guy whose man left to double-team. The Blazers don't have enough of those. The other would be a true closer who could draw attention and then get the ball to a single-covered LMA. Felton is disqualified from the discussion because of his shot, Matthews because of his dribble, Wallace because of his dribble and lack of a pull-up game. That leaves Jamal Crawford and Nicolas Batum. Of the two Crawford is the better bet right now. He fulfills all three criteria. He and Aldridge play well together. Batum may become that guy in the future if he keeps working on his dribble and decision-making but that dribble thing could be a stumbling block.
In any case, putting the ball in Felton's hands and running the usual offense isn't the best option for the Blazers in this situation. What you'd probably see is Crawford breaking down the defense off the dribble looking for LMA, his shot, or an outlet to the corner for a three in that order. Or at least theoretically that would be the order. In Crawford's mind the first two may be inverted, which is part of why Blazers fans don't like the idea of him being the closer.. But that's what the Blazers have right now.
Dave,
With Jeremy Lin having so much success in New York this season and really revitalizing a drooping Knicks team, with Lin becoming a free agent this summer, would the Blazers benefit from using some of their capspace to offer Lin a contract and could he have this success here?
I stayed out of the Jeremy Lin thing completely, and for good reason.
To answer your question as asked, no, that wouldn't be a good pick-up for the Blazers right now. Lin has talent but he's also playing in Mike D'Antoni's system. Was Steve Nash really Steve Nash after D'Antoni left? Is Raymond Felton the same point guard here that he was in New York? Lin is a prime example of NBA guys having talent and being able to show it given the right environment. Lin here, or almost anywhere else, is going to look closer to the guy who left Golden State than the guy you see on ESPN every night. Plus if he keeps playing this way he's going to be expensive. Neither risk nor reward would be worth the cost, even if the Knicks did let him go.
Now let me go beyond your question a bit. I enjoy a good story. I am ready to celebrate what Lin has done...be captivated by it even. But I find the whole media maelstrom around this kid disgusting. I'm not disgusted with him, but with the media itself.
Sports media folks have always been in the exaggeration business. They make both stories and men into legends, larger than life. Inevitably, on the flip side, the media also makes good from the fall of heroes. Our entire mass media experience has come in the era of this "build-him-up, tear-him-down" cycle.
Once upon a time this cycle took years. Guys like Charles Barkley and Michael Jordan rose to prominence on the back of their accomplishments, on the court and as entertainers. After years of seeing them rise we discovered their less-attractive foibles. The media told us of gambling, womanizing, arguments in practice, self-centered attitudes. These reports tarnished the image a little, pulled the heroes off of the pedestal. (Or in Barkley's case, he kind of jumped.) But in the end we had plenty of evidence on both ends, plenty of texture, and we were able to put their careers in perspective, appreciating greatness and balancing it with humanity.
In 2012 that cycle doesn't take years, it takes days. Greatness is no longer the prerequisite for becoming a huge story. Doing anything unusual qualifies. I appreciate Jeremy Lin's play the last couple of weeks. But this has become such a huge story now--the media in its eagerness for the next headline has gotten so out in front of this kid's reality--that even if he became Barkley-level great he'd barely fulfill the chatter that's surrounding him. There's no way he can live up to it. Nobody could.
This means that his fall is inevitable...not because of personal shortcomings but because the bar is so impossibly high that he'll never meet it. The media has written the story of his fall already, guaranteed it, by running this far, this fast. They can write the "What happened to Jeremy Lin?" copy already. And I think that stinks. They're not giving us the truth about him, his situation, or his play. They're propping up a false image so they can get us to believe in it and then tear it down in front of our eyes, generating ratings all the way.
The problem is, there's a real guy--an actual basketball player--attached to that image. As high as he's riding right now, Jeremy Lin is going to end up paying the price for the media's use of him in the end. And before you say he's getting the rub for the attention, that's true but he'd get the same rub if they just mentioned him once every couple days or so instead of every minute of every hour everywhere. I'm sure he'd be fine if people talked about someone else at this point. It's gotten obnoxious.
As soon as that real player begins to play normally (or as soon as the media tires of this real guy's story, whichever comes first) his fall is going to happen just as quickly as his rise did. But unlike Barkley and Jordan with their years of career evidence to back up the hype and keep their name respectable, what does Lin have? Nothing. There will be nothing left in the wake of this story...just a kid who played well for a while, got used for it, and got butchered. Anyone who remembers his good play will remember that he never lived up to the hype. Anyone who remembers his fall will just shake their heads saying he turned out to be not worth the fuss at all.
This makes me sick. In my view the media's job is to tell the story, not feed people through an impossible hype mill and spit them out with a broken image and career on the other side. This is exactly the kind of thing that causes people to "hate" on players who don't end up perfect...and none of them are. This is exactly the kind of thing that causes every team's fans to declare every off-season acquisition perfect, the piece that finally puts the franchise over the top. This is also the kind of thing that causes those same fans to rip on the same players without mercy when those fantasies don't come true, which they don't for 29 teams in this league. Jumping too soon into hyperbole, treating real people like they were comic book characters, and tossing them when they become yesterday's news has consequences. How do we even know reality when the hype is all we have?
To me the role of "professional media" folks, by definition, is to ground us in a baseline of truth, giving us a reference point for our flights of fancy and thus an alternative to those negative consequences. Apparently that doesn't exist anymore, at least not on the national level...not if the Jeremy Lin story is any guide.
I'm all for fans going crazy. I'm all for people oohing and aahing. I'm all for "Linsanity" sweeping the nation the same way "Where's the beef?" or the Macarena did. But Woodward and Bernstein weren't actually reporting a beef shortage based on that commercial and I don't recall Tom Brokaw and Dan Rather doing the Macarena every night during the evening news. Taking a story and running with it is one thing. Making a story--distorting it and then calling it real for your own self-interest--is quite another.
We've always had legends, but they used to spring from the sport. Now that's inverted. The sport springs from the legend if it springs at all. How long will it be before there's no sport, just a bunch of fairy tales told to satisfy a public nursed on the artificial breast of the media machine?
I'm about a million questions behind but if you'd like to send in yours, ship it to the e-mail address below and put "Mailbag" in the subject line.
--Dave (blazersub@gmail.com)
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love the way you broke that down...plus I laughed when you made the point about how the veterans would feel....Boss talking to the employee was funny;-)
by TrailBlazing25 on Feb 22, 2012 11:53 PM PST via mobile reply actions
The breakdown was good especially if this was a regular season.
However, using the same analogy…if I was a veteran worker and had signed up to work all sorts of overtime..thinking I need this money and I CAN do this…and then found that I was fighting off a cold and was successful for awhile..if only I didn’t work TOO HARD…and made sure I got to bed early..and my coworkers were cheering me on…but then had to go on a road trip. And on this trip I found that the FATIGUE was just coming on no matter what I did, and I began to make mistakes…and began garnering some criticism from the higher ups. I began to wonder if I was going to screw up my chances for that promotion next year…and then out of nowhere…someone intervened and said that I just needed to forgo some of this overtime and give some of my extra work load up to one of the new people for the sake of the company’s survival. That if I did this, in the end I may give myself the chance to earn a bonus and in the process remain healthy….I think I may be ok with the new person taking on some of my hours/extra pay.
I think that if the head coach was able to talk to his veteran players and let them know that if they give up some of their playing time to allow rookies to become somewhat competent….and point out the whole..no time for formal practice…and you can benefit by learning how these young guys fit in with YOUR game…then you will lessen your chances of becoming overly fatigued, injured and when you do play you will play BETTER…thereby allowing other teams etc to note how your team can WIN…perhaps the veterans would be just fine with this.
If I came into work and performed like our guards did most of this season, I would have fully expected to be fired.
and if you went to work in the NBA you could very well have a guaranteed contract
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
I work with people who show up for work like these guards do
They also have a union guaranteed contract and can’t be fired
I think the biggest reason to not chase Jeremy Lin is that it's a waste of time.
As I understand it, the Arenas Rule applies to Lin. NY can and will match any offer that the Blazers can offer. We are limited in how much we can offer which is unrelated to our cap number.
by 52therim on Feb 23, 2012 12:10 AM PST via mobile reply actions
It's hard to argue that Lin isn't overvalued.
And when competing directly with other teams for a player, that means you’ll pay more than is worth it.
Considering purchasing a ticket on the Rebuild Now bandwagon.
Can we get him?
If the answer is no then why do I care if he is over-valued or under-valued.
by 52therim on Feb 23, 2012 12:23 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I agree with Dave's evaluation of the media surrounding Lin
ESPN is almost lampooning its desperation covering him and Tebow. I once watched SportsCenter at a bar a week ago, and it opened with a sequence of both players juxtaposed in split-second cuts, in brazen acknowledgement that they were going to bleed the Lin story as dry as Tebow. Insane.
err…okay. Linsane. :(
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
Fair enough, but that wasn't really the question that was posed from the mailbag.
Lin, Tebow, Favre…this stuff is so boring as a result of the over-exposure by the media on uninteresting (Favre) or mildly interesting (Lin, Tebow) stories that I just change the channel/station and it doesn’t effect me much.
The initial question to me is more interesting. Should the Blazers make a run at him with our capspace? I say no, not because I’m convinced he’s the flavor of the month and about to fade. Who really knows? But because we can’t get him. Do people think we could get him? That’s a conversation I’d like to see if there are differing opinions.
by 52therim on Feb 23, 2012 9:17 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe it’s just because I tend to read blogs more for my NBA news, but I don’t think I’ve seen those kinds of expectations being set up for Lin. I see things like people asking Kelly Dwyer if Lin compares well to Darren Collison, stuf about his turnovers, how he’s played against a number of weak teams: things that, in my mind, do temper expectations (and rightfully so).
I’ve also seen the New York factor written about a lot. Because the Knicks were imploding, and it’s the biggest media market, and Knicks fans are success-deprived and crazy in their own special Big Apple way, the amount of attention has been far greater.
Finally, I would argue that Steve Nash definitely kept being Steve Nash after D’Antoni left. The man is incredible – he flirts with a 50/40/90 every year, plays a ton of minutes, and can make entire defenses look silly just by virtue of the fact that he’s friggin’ Steve Nash! The change from the D’Antoni years is that his team fell apart around him, and Sarver is a cheapskate.
Considering purchasing a ticket on the Rebuild Now bandwagon.
by austinpwnz on Feb 23, 2012 12:15 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
I remember when we unveiled Armon last year and he tore it up until other teams put together a decent scouting report on him.
Granted, Lin is better than Armon it is likely only a manor of time before teams find Lin’s weaknesses and exploit them. Lucky for Lin his aptitude for turning the ball over isn’t such a big deal in the offense he plays in since so many shots that go up in D’Antoni’s offense might as well be turnovers anyway. Lin does have some legitimate strengths too. He run the high screen and roll very well. He gets his bigs easy dunks. And he has nice touch around the rim in traffic. Take a listen to the BS Report when Simmons talks to Mike Breen about Knicks basketball.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Feb 23, 2012 1:57 AM PST up reply actions
They really aren't comparable
Armon’s best game was a 4-4, 10 point, 5 assist game against Milwaukee 5 games into the season. I’m pretty sure Lin’s put up a line like that in a quarter at some point in his run. And really, due to the crazy saturation in coverage, it’s not like people haven’t been scouting/paying attention to him. Maybe teams are a little less prepared due to scheduling concerns, but we’re a little past time for Lin to suddenly nose dive into his former self.
Of course, he’s due for some definite regression to the mean as he cools down, but if there were some key bit of scouting info that would neutralize him, someone would have implemented it by now.
I’m not that concerned that Blazers have hidden gems that are going undiscovered.
We got rid of Bayless, Webster, Outlaw; none of them have shown talent that was being underutilized at Portland.
it doesn’t really work like that though, players can have their growth irreparably stunted if they don’t get the work early in their careers. Jermaine O’Neal, the player that didn’t get a shot for three years then exploded, is a huge anamoly.
i keep dancing on my own.
JO is an interesting case
I think a substantial benefit of playing early is having a pre-defined longish-term deal, so a rookie can come in without pressure and play, knowing that unless they’re completely awful, they have 3-4 years to prove themselves before worrying about their next contract. If a player sits on the bench for three years, suddenly, he has to start thinking about his next deal the second he gets on the court.
With JO, though, despite the fact that he hardly ever played in his first three years, we still gave him a fairly lucrative 4 year extension, so he still had that contract security for his first three years in Indy. Of course, he also had the problem of being stuck behind two better players on a team decidedly built to win in the short term.
He played a lot more than some young guys on our current or recent teams
458, 808, 310 and 859 minutes. Then it obviously tripled in Indiana.
In comparison:
Luke Babbitt 137 and 48 minutes so far
Armon Johnson 277 and 5 minutes so far
Jeff Pendergraph 405 minutes
Patty Mills 38 and 783 minutes
Jerryd Bayless 655 minutes, then 1304
Elliot Williams 107 minutes so far
Nolan Smith 135 minutes so far
Considering how Nate feels about rookies
Mills got some serious burn in that second season. I seem to remember he was getting more minutes than Miller at one point, which was crazy. The question is, did Nate get orders from on high to play Patty more, or did he just dislike Miller that much?
by Benny A La Vikings on Feb 23, 2012 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
I think he disliked our other backup PG options that much
plus Patty played admirably for the most part
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Feb 23, 2012 10:06 AM PST up reply actions
yes, "Patty played admirably for the most part"
which seems to be forgotton by some.
Patty was earning his minutes. Plus he got a lot of play in during the off season. He should be better now.
If what you are doing is not working, try something else.
I didn't mind Patty off the bench
good change of pace, infusion of spark/energy type player
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Feb 23, 2012 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
yeah he played better than Armon
though Nolan also would have earned minutes if Armon were the alternative.
i keep dancing on my own.
I believe that Nate would lean towards Nolan over Patty as well
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
I wouldn't rule that out either
But that’s a tough one. Neither guy would light the league on fire. And Patty has more experience.
I'm not ready to draw definitive conclusions about Nolan
Patty I think we can.
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
Nate loves known quantities
true…but he also likes size and defense. Patty is a waterbug. Even if Nolan starts out a little behind, I don’t think it would be long before he caught and surpassed Patty’s level of contribution.
Nolan has good length for a PG…that benefits team D.
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
I think some of Patty's playing time may have been
the whole “change in look” that Nate would give as the reason for playing him.
Also I think that Patty was one of PA’s faves. And this cannot be discounted.
It was shortly after Batum’s 9 3pt game..where I saw PA giving Nic a standing ovation as he came off the floor…that Nic became a starter…after Nate had pretty much said he was not going to change the rotation…
True, but he signed his extension before his last year as a Blazer
At which point he had received fewer minutes than Bayless did in two, although the 310 minute year was skewed by the lockout.
And of course, I’d think that almost all of those guys, at the very least Babbitt (as putrid as he’s been), Williams, and Nolan should be playing/have played more than they’ve done to this point, but that’s just my opinion.
Watch ESPN
They are the lead in pushing Lin. It is pretty nauseating really.
by Sheed'sTowel on Feb 23, 2012 2:05 AM PST up reply actions
It's not just espn
he’s Vernon the cover of SI twice in a row
by McGreggers on Feb 23, 2012 7:11 AM PST via Android app up reply actions
finally someone used the word "Nauseating" correctly
It is Nauseating when people use naucious instead.
or 'nauseous'
" one thing I hate more than a L*ker, is TWO L*kers.... "
by 1ofthe7 on Feb 23, 2012 9:16 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
That point was decidedly weak in Dave's piece
Steve Nash’s numbers undoubtedly took a dip in 2008/2009, their first season post-Mike D, but he also spent half that season playing for TP, who is so far down the coaching totem pole that he’s a local sideline reporter these days, and then the Suns proceeded to dump their two best players, receiving essentially nothing in return.
Even now, his PER this year is right in the ballpark with his first Phoenix years (better than his first MVP season, worse than his second). I’d really be curious how Dave thinks Steve Nash is no longer “Steve Nash” now.
by Royster on Feb 23, 2012 7:41 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Actually...isn't TP now an Adleman assistant in Minnesota?
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, T.P. slid into Elston Turner's old spot on Adelman's staff.
Turner, who probably figured Adelman would retire after being let go from Houston, went to Phoenix and became Alvin Gentry’s defensive coordinator.
With the younger players, I think you have to look at how the team performs when they do get minutes.
Elliott has shown me he deserves some opportunity. Nolan Smith has largely been the answer to “how to lose a lead”. I want Nate to put his best team on the floor. If he thinks that is the veterans, I don’t question that too much. However, there have been nights when Wes was obviously off and Nate has been way too slow to give Elliott an opportunity. Same goes for Felton and Nolan Smith.
by 52therim on Feb 23, 2012 12:21 AM PST via mobile reply actions
Good stuff, although I'm still mulling the money/PT analogy
As a younger worker myself, I know I get really frustrated when a “vet” gets the benefit of the doubt even if the kid may be right and/or better. Hence, I probably tend to favor the arguments for playing the more promising young guys. But yours is an interesting perspective I’ll have to think on more…
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Well...I was layed off from a department ....
…that decided to only keep the 2 people with the least seniority (least amount of pay) ….even though it was demonstrated that I was a better performer than either of them were ….so it works both ways
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
yep....happens all the time...
younger employee screws up the project, but the blame went to me….
got laid off, which surprised most of my fellow employees…
low paid, low performing employees get retained all of the time in a misguided belief that it eventually helps the bottom line…
in my profession, “the kid” is rarely, if ever, right…
that “boss” conversation happens quite often….employers often look at the price rather than the benefit you bring.
"Trick or Treat is not just some remark you chant idly like the Lord's Prayer, it's a social contract."
-Bart Simpson
Batum pushed Wallace to the 4 for extra minutes
ergo, Smith gets no minutes at the 4. Frankly, I’d like to see more of Wallace at the 4 – it would seem to be the natural fit for his skills set….
One thing about Williams vs. guys ahead of him – specifically, Mathews. Mathews has an issue with ball handling. He squanders more scoring opportunities with his small hands of stone than the Blazers can suffer. Williams doesn’t seem to suffer Mathews’ inherent faults, while bringing some intriguing strengths.
Here’s the thing – finding time for Williams in the rotation either comes at the expense of a current rotation player – with the consequence of diminishing the value of that rotation player – or the Blazers must make roster moves (trades) to justify Williams’ increased role.
At some point, the Blazers have to role the dice on a player like Williams – they have to leverage the players ahead of him to bolster another position of weakness while taking the gamble that Williams can not only fill the performance void – he fills the value void.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Feb 23, 2012 12:30 AM PST reply actions 4 recs
I agree with this completely
I think Matthews is overpaid, so it will be hard to move him, but if we can get anything that’s not a TERRIBLE deal we should take it. All that is contingent on us not making a blockbuster trade however. If we could get Deron from the Nets, or Nash from the Suns, I think we should keep Wes and make a run. Wes looks good as long as he has a good, true point guard to set up shots for him. It’s trying to create his own shots that causes the problems.
by Benny A La Vikings on Feb 23, 2012 1:32 AM PST up reply actions
I really like Wes. Sometimes.
When he is trapping people on defense and shooting threes in the corner or the secondary fast break he is so money. Wes would be a great asset to a second unit that is designed to stop the other team’s second unit from scoring and possibly extend the lead with some opportunistic scoring. When Wes is the fourth option on offense he seems to fill it up. When he is the second or third option he seems to get in his own way.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Feb 23, 2012 1:48 AM PST up reply actions
This is why I'm pleased
With Nate starting Nic at the 2. It allows Crash to play his preferred / natural position at the 3. Wes can come off the bench and (usually) outplay his second-unit opponent and allow Nic to rest. Likewise, JC can slide between the 1 and 2 and also allow Nic to rest (or to spell Crash at the 3). If anything, we need a reliable backup 4 (and I’m not sure that’s Craig Smith).
Oh yeah, and a good PG. I haven’t given up on Felton…yet, but I’m still wishing we had been able to keep ’Dre.
"My shoulder is OK. And away we go." -- Nic Batum
"wang-dang diddly wubba SPROING wow-wow" -- Dave
Dre is missed. That is for sure.
He was the floor general. So it wasn’t just his shooting that was important. Felton doesn’t seem to be able to see more than the upcoming play. I don’t see Felton studying film after games.
I am sick of this season…no time to prepare watching film, practicing…I think the season ticket holders should have gotten some kind of discount. And the regular tickets should also be discounted….just as the product is.
I have more hope in Crawford being a good PG than Felton
Plus the length factor of that lineup can be the defense we would like to have.
I think that makes the best, if imperfect, starting linup from our current roster.
If what you are doing is not working, try something else.
Craig Smith’s value comes from his efficient scoring. He’s never been a stellar rebounder. He’s best used as an offensive focal point in units where there aren’t too many scoring options.
Also, not sure what you are watching, but Steve Nash is still pretty awesome despite D’Antoni being in NY. If any pg could succeed under D’Antoni, Lin never would have gotten a shot this year. Not saying the system is irrelevant, but Lin is doing things that would be effective for other coaches too.
Craig Smith has to have just the right matchup.
His issue will always be defense. He has to guard guys that are not capable of beating him off the dribble AND are also not significantly longer than him. There are plenty of guys who fit the bill. They just aren’t on every team and their defensive strengths and limitations may dictate an even more favorable matchup against Wallace, Batum or Aldridge, rather than the rhino. I love players like Craig Smith because they fill a niche. For all of Craig’s muscles his niche is fairly small.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Feb 23, 2012 1:30 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, he’s clearly not a guy who’s going to have success in all matchups. I do think he’s consistently been undervalued by his coaches— I think he’s capable of more than Nate has allowed him to show.
Some have said that he has about one move when it comes to shooting.
I haven’t watched enough games this year to know if this is true. When at the games, I do see that his shots are blocked more often than they were at first. So what people are saying may be true?
His only offensive move is the pump fake.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Feb 23, 2012 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
with his hands yes
but his footwork is excellent and is why he can always get within a few feet of the hoop. He really knows how to use his body and often uses double dropsteps and spin moves to put him in the position to pump fake
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
Thank you Dave
Captured the Lin stuff 100%. I feel bad for the guy after you see outlets like ESPN pushing him so hard. You know when he inevitably slows in production we will see something like a “FaiLIN?” headline on the sportscenter crawl.
You know they were salivating and waiting for the right time to print that one...
Headline writers are almost universally trying to squeeze as much drama and juicy controversy as they can fit in between the lines. ‘Chink in the Armor’ is an oldie, but a goodie; it works every time.
There's a middle ground between keeping the vets happy at all costs and giving rookies undeserved minutes
Consistent playing time for rookies is key. In this season I can’t believe Nate can’t find E-Will 10 minutes a game (he’s at 5.6) somewhere in the rotation. Wes having a bad night? Try Williams for a few minutes. Crawford having one of his patented 4-18 nights? Give Elliot a shot. I’m not saying move Williams into the starting lineup, but Nate could free up some minutes for a young guy with talent.
We’ve seen how other coaches in the league give starters extra rest and/or play the hot hand. Nate is far too reluctant to mix things up. Look how long it took him to move Felton and Matthews around. These guys are professionals, they shouldn’t sulk if they’re losing minutes because of poor play. The coach needs to be able to tell them, “Hey, you’re not playing so hot recently, I’m going to mix things up. Show me something good and those minutes are yours again.”
#7
The exact scenario you dictated happens at every company in America, where youngsters with potential are fast-tracked before they are contributing. It’s called “executive training programs” or “partner track” or something. There’s just a more obvious divide between positions with upward mobility in most companies than the NBA.
i keep dancing on my own.
by atomiccafe on Feb 23, 2012 6:49 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
And besides, it assumes a certain naivete amongst players
about the reality of the NBA business. Guys who have been in the league a couple years know that rookies and other young players will almost always get some minutes, most of the vets were beneficiaries of this when they were younger. Playing guys like Elliott or Nolan 10-15 minutes a game isn’t putting them higher on the totem pole than a Felton or Matthews (who both play twice as much), it just means that the coach thinks they deserve a chance to see what they can do.
The paycheck analogy really falls apart both because more PT isn’t always desirable and, as Dave notes, players get compensated independently of playing time. Most guys would be completely fine dropping a few minutes and getting some more rest rather than maxing out their PT as long as they’re still on top of the totem pole, so to speak. Andre Miller’s complaints here weren’t so much that he was playing less than he previously had but about that he was stuck behind and playing less than the inferior Steve Blake.
Certainly you don’t hear clear starters like Camby, GW, or even LaMarcus complain when their minutes are dropped some, given that those guys are still clearly the men at their respective positions.
Actually, the playing time theory may explain why Thomas and Smith haven’t been getting a lot of minutes. Thomas is late in his career and not someone who is going to be concerned about building up his stats. Not sure about Smith but he wasn’t getting played at all with his previous team as I understand it so I guess they don’t have to worry about not giving him his due minutes.
Too bad the young Blazer prospects Elliot and Nolan are both guards. It would be nice if Blazers had a rookie forward and center as potential replacements for the old bigs that will retire before long.
yeah
In coming drafts I think Blazers need to identify guys at specific positions that they like.
The philosophy of “we’ll draft the guy we like best regardless of what position he plays and figure out how to balance the roster later” makes sense in one way but I think we can see that it is not necessarily trivial to “balance the roster later”.
Smith was a need pick though, they stated reason for taking him was that the free agent big crop was better than the free agent guard crop so they took and NBA ready guy who they thought could take on a role right away.
i keep dancing on my own.
right
and then we got Rhino, Kurt, and ultimately Joel as well to address the front court. I would like to see some young bigs drafted at some point though.
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Feb 23, 2012 10:08 AM PST up reply actions
sure but when you say the free agent class is better so you’ll address that need then the implication is that you’ll get someone who’s not either apparently unplayable (Rhino who just doesn’t get minutes, due to defense, or whatever reason) 100 years old or totally broken. These guys are all minimum salary players for a reason. They were good minimum salary pickups, but it’s not exactly “addressing a need,” more like “scraping the bottom of the barrel.”
i keep dancing on my own.
sure
but wouldn’t you say those three “bottom of the barrel” guys are better than the “bottom of the barrel” guys we would have at the PG position? For all their flaws, I think Rhino, KT, and Joel are pretty solid for a backup big rotation, especially now with a real 7 footer mixed in.
I’m not arguing though, I like Nolan because I’m a Dukie and he’s got a good attitiude, but I was absolutely shocked when they picked him instead of Faried. When Faried fell to that spot, I think myself and 99% of Blazer fans thought he was a lock. Dejuan Blair also. Dante was a good pick but to pass on a talent like that twice…
I feel like our war room tries to out-think everybody sometimes when the right answer is plain as day in front of their face.
I still hope for good things from Nolan, but there’s no reason we shouldn’t have Blair and I also don’t really see a reason why we couldn’t have both Nolan and Faried.
If we had used the pick we got for Rudy on Nolan instead of in the trade for Felton, we could have Dre, Nolan, and Faried right now.
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Feb 23, 2012 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
I think this is dead on
I feel like our war room tries to out-think everybody sometimes when the right answer is plain as day in front of their face.
I would like to see some young bigs drafted at some point though.
They tried that with Pendy and Ferno
And let Blair, Faried and Seraphin slip by
When reached 40+ years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
not to mention Oden
I think part of the reason Portland hasn’t drafted bigs is they’ve been perennially waiting for Greg to finally stay healthy
When reached 40+ years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don't really mind Smith not getting his minutes
given that he’s been around the league long enough for us to know he’s not about to blow up and turn into a star. Maybe you could sneak a few more minutes for him, but it’s not a big deal.
For 1st-3rd year players, though, every effort should be made to shoehorn them into as many minutes as possible without throwing games. You simply need to see whether those guys are capable of producing in real game minutes, and it’s not like this kind of production always shows up in practice. While there are certainly guys who kill it in practice before translating that to meaningful games, plenty of guys only end up getting their shots due to injuries forcing them into large roles (i.e. Jeremy Lin), and then proceed to contribute at a solid level. Some players just produce in games in a way that doesn’t translate to practices.
The whole American way is feast or famine.
Reading all the blogs and listening to the bandwagon fans, is the whole build them up and cut them down nature of Americans. We got Felton on the rebound from his NY hype. When we got him he was almost Godly in his play and the promise to bring the Blazers to the promise land. Now he is almost garbage in the eyes of the fan.
I never got caught up in the hype from NY, so I didn’t have any high expectations from him, but after watching him, it is obvious to me that he isn’t the PG that will take us to the play-offs let alone to the promise Land. Is that Felton’s fault, or the fault of hype?
hg
I wouldn't say it's Ray's fault
for not living up to the “just as good as Andre Miller, but a better shooter” hype that some BE members thought about him, but at the same time, you can blame him for not providing a comparable level of play to his previous years. It would be a lot more forgiveable for his play to have a precipitous drop like this if he weren’t entering his prime, but that isn’t the case.
So really, you can’t blame him for not living up to his peak performance, but IMO, it’s entirely reasonable to blame him for playing significantly below minimum expectations.
yeah this
I didn’t expect NY numbers. I did expect a guy that could get closer to his career numbers though.
That's pretty much my disappointment on Ray too
I didn’t hold any hopes he’s be a revelation. I just hoped he’d hold up the fort for a season. I’m sure the Blazers staff hoped he’d build off his good start in NY, and fit in well with the young core in Portland.
Felton
Based on Felton’s past performance it is reasonable to believe he is a PG that can take you to the playoffs.
If we want to get away from feast and famine mentality we need to recognize that player slumps don’t tend to last forever and Felton will probably play better in the future than he is right now.
I have been a Felton critic but, my criticism is for how he’s playing now, not that I believe he inherently lacks talent. When a player has shown the past performance Felton has there is reason to believe he can achieve that again in the future, but it’s not obvious what is needed to get him back on track.
Makes an awkward situation for the coach though. What do you do when a guy’s in a slump. You can’t throw him in there and pretend he’s a starting point guard when his play is getting him rated something like 50-60th best point guard in the NBA.
I heard it from the grapevine
When Felton and Nate had their little meeting, it was said that Nate didn’t want him to go out and dazzle and play up to the hype, just playing average would be great. He did produce better in the LAL lost and a whole lot better in the SAS game. but it is too soon to tell, but maybe he was trying to live up to the hype and like Dave said, that is impossible. So maybe he should try to play average and be OK.
hg
You are right BBK everyone got carried away with the hype .
Felton has never been as good as he was in D’antoni’s offense and even then he was only average .
Now I dont regard Hollingers players ratings as the end all be all . to a players play however it does show a interesting timeline .
Feltons rank the past 5 years
2012 – 52nd
2011- 17th
2010- 28th
2009- 29th teammate DJ Augustin 21st
2008- 23rd
2007- 35th teammate Brevin Knight 28th
2006 – 28th teammate brevin Knight 12th
I dont think felton sucks and Im quite sure he can play better than he has but I think weve got to lower the expectations of how high we think his bounceback from his slump should be .
by Willie Beamon on Feb 23, 2012 9:08 AM PST up reply actions
those numbers are eye openers
Those numbers are interesting all right. Looks like Felton has a career of being a starter-caliber point guard but not one of the better starting point guards.
or actually
Should have let those numbers sink in a little further.
I should amend my statement: They show Felton’s career shows him consistently being a BORDERLINE starter-caliber point guard.
borderline starter
Sounds like a good assessment. Ray coming in off the bench actually helps the bench. Jamal’s ability to both score and distribute could really help the starting unit if he can keep it up.
Great answer as to “why don’t you play the young guys”.
But let’s look at the glass half full here. At least Babbitt and Armond haven’t shown enough talent to warrant playing time. So the logjam of young guys is not as bad as it could be. At least Elliot and Nolan are sort of “next in line” for any playing time that comes along.
Lin Hating !
Or about as close as I have seen to it so far.
unlike Barkley and Jordan with their years of career evidence to back up the hype and keep their name respectable, what does Lin have? Nothing. There will be nothing left in the wake of this story…just a kid who played well for a while, got used for it, and got butchered. Anyone who remembers his good play will remember that he never lived up to the hype.
Pretty harsh stuff. I know 400ish minutes is a small sample size, but the numbers are very comparable to a young Steve Nash, who is a hall of famer. After seeing DWill torch him, looks like they might have a similar defensive deficiency.
Jeremy Lin VS Steve Nash 2nd season comparison.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=nashst01&y1=1998&p2=linje01&y2=2012
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
I think the point is that building him up to a person of greatness overnight,
instead of giving him the nod he deserves and then letting him prove it will only result in disaster for the guy one way or another. The chances are very good that he’ll either slip away into average land or maintain a decent level but never rise to the “greatness that could be”, the “Lin Dynasty”, etc. that the media put on his shoulders. You see those numbers comparing Nash to Lin is an idea proposed by the media that Lin is already GREAT and now Lin has to be the next Nash or it’s a fail. 400 minutes of good basketball does not yet make you great.
That said, I hope Lin succeeds and becomes great for years to come
I think what irritates me about seeing takes like Dave's about guys like Lin
is that they assume a pretty high degree of idiocy and savagery to the average sports fan. While there are no doubt some people out there who think Jeremy Lin is now a superstar, it’s pretty clear to me that those people are in the distinct minority. The story (like Tebow’s, to a lesser extent) gets played up so much simply because it’s a great narrative encompassing a lot of different elements: undrafted, Harvard grad, bounced around the league, first Asian-American, in MSG, etc. It’s simply a fun story to get behind and ride, and allows people to make a lot of pseudo-racist puns that are generally off-limits in NBA circles these days (witness this SNL sketch as an example), so a lot of people get behind it.
While some of them may end up being crestfallen when he regresses back to whatever his normal level of play is, I just don’t see him getting “butchered” for it. The guy remains, after all, an undrafted guy picked up off the waiver wire. People like underdogs who defy the odds, but pretty much no one cares to kick a guy that no one expected much out of to begin with.
by Royster on Feb 23, 2012 9:29 AM PST up reply actions 5 recs
I like your take and I hope you're right
It is a good story and it’s been good to see.
It just seems like the media had a tendency to blow things up and then flip 180 degrees
“Lin – falLin apart”
putting the guy in the negative spotlight even though he never asked to be in the positive one to begin with.
hopefully that doesn’t happen
Well, I definitely agree that there will be some stupid puns
and awful headlines about his regression, but I think the severity of this butchering is way overstated. The net effect of the past two and a half weeks will undoubtedly be a substantial positive for Jeremy Lin’s quality of life, both as an NBA player and an overall person, regardless of where he ends up in the overall NBA hierarchy.
I don’t mean to understate the fact that fans can do pretty terrible things like boo Greg Oden, but the Greg Oden narrative is one of absurd promises and huge disappointment. Nothing Lin does now can compare to the expectations Greg had coming in, even if he’s getting more media coverage.
"they assume a pretty high degree of idiocy and savagery to the average sports fan [...] it’s pretty clear to me that those people are in the distinct minority."
I don’t know, though. Maybe it’s just me, but there seems to be a substantial amount of dumb sports fans out there.
Sure there are
but anyone who’s built Lin up that much simply isn’t a serious enough NBA fan to really care.
Yeah, I doubt that there'll be a lot of backlash when Lin regresses in the next few weeks.
Likewise, I’m not sure the nutjob Tebow homers will ever completely turn on him. Even when Tebow struggles in the coming seasons, he’ll still have his hardcore advocates who support him. Plus, rather than hate on Tebow, his current casual fans will just forget about him when he falters. Last but not least, Tebow haters like myself will probably calm down when the guy finally crumbles; that’s ‘cause we’ll be glad he faded away into obscurity where he belongs.
Although the Linsanity is not at the level of TebowMania — particularly not on a mainstream, non-sports level — I think it’ll play out similarly. Once Lin no longer holds the attention of the sports media and casual viewing fan, they’ll find someone — or something — else to focus on.
Pretty much
Unless Tebow starts lashing out weirdly whenever he falters a la Brady Quinn or Vince Young, he’ll just go down as another guy. His most ardent supporters will make excuses for him, but most people only simply care because of the constant stories about him.
As a fellow Tebow skeptic, I have no real desire to see him trashed and read about his fall from grace, but I would certainly prefer to not read about his admittedly impressive exploits surround by multiple quarters of terrible play.
Personally, I "assume a pretty high degree of idiocy and savagery" in every person, not just sports fans.
I’ve got enough of it me, everyone else has got to have some too.
But this story is being sold to someone. Otherwise, it would be dead already. Lin has the superstar coverage, like Lebron and Kobe. And who knows, maybe the guy makes good on it. But he will be sacrificed on the altar of popularity no matter what happens. Because that’s what happens.
We live in a world where dreams are dead. And if one seems to be coming true, there will be a way to kill it. Because we’re bored. The dreams of a few are killed by the boredom of the many. The same many who are bored, because they don’t dare have dreams of their own, lest they be killed as well. The world is an idiotic and savage place. One day it will kill us all.
"Anybody might guess beforehand that there would be blunders of the ignorant. What nobody could have guessed, what nobody could have dreamed of in a nightmare, what no morbid mortal imagination could ever have dared to imagine, was the mistakes of the well-informed." - G. K. Chesterton, The Common Man
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"The world is an idiotic and savage place."
For some reason, this makes me think of Wild Bill Wharton in The Green Mile.
Wild Bill weren't no real outlaw!
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
Come on, "sacrifice at the altar of popularity"
is exactly the type of overblown statement I was talking about. I have plenty of friends who watch a lot of sports while being somewhat casual NBA fans (the team they root for, much like the Blazers is currently mired in bout of mediocrity) who are all about “Lin-sanity”. Before that, they were super into Tim Tebow, and before that, it was JimmerMania, and to a lesser extent, Kemba Walker, just to cycle through the past year’s underdog flavors of the month.
As those guys faltered, they weren’t skewered by the media. They weren’t viciously booed. For the most part, they just faded from our consciousness as the public’s collective attention moved onto the next big thing. Even if you look at slightly more distant NBA history with Gilbert Arenas as a guy who exploded out of nowhere (who can forget “Hibachi”, or his semi-short lived blogging career) and was basically a worst-case scenario for “guy develops sky high expectations and then disappoints” (mainly due to injury), he only became a real martyr in the court of public opinion after his moronic gun incident. Absent that, and he simply would have faded away as another bad contract, just like most of these guys.
When “Lin-sanity” is over, people won’t turn on Lin so much as simply stop paying attention. Maybe that’s a terrible injustice to him, but that’s just how the sports media works.
by Royster on Feb 23, 2012 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
People may not turn,
but the Media sure will. And it will sell. And that means something.
And I like overblown statements. :(
"Anybody might guess beforehand that there would be blunders of the ignorant. What nobody could have guessed, what nobody could have dreamed of in a nightmare, what no morbid mortal imagination could ever have dared to imagine, was the mistakes of the well-informed." - G. K. Chesterton, The Common Man
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Nah, the media will just ignore him.
Once Lin drops off, it’ll likely be around the time for postseason basketball and the sports media will just refocus its attention to LeBron James.
Did Dave ever say he would be viciously booed?
Dave – “Anyone who remembers his fall will just shake their heads saying he turned out to be not worth the fuss at all”.
^^That sounds a lot like this
You- “For the most part, they just faded from our consciousness as the public’s collective attention moved onto the next big thing”
So what is the problem here?
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
This
This means that his fall is inevitable…not because of personal shortcomings but because the bar is so impossibly high that he’ll never meet it. The media has written the story of his fall already, guaranteed it, by running this far, this fast. They can write the “What happened to Jeremy Lin?” copy already. And I think that stinks. They’re not giving us the truth about him, his situation, or his play. They’re propping up a false image so they can get us to believe in it and then tear it down in front of our eyes, generating ratings all the way.
Tearing it down? Really
There will be nothing left in the wake of this story…just a kid who played well for a while, got used for it, and got butchered.
Again, how were any of my previous examples “butchered” for simply returning to normal play?
Personally, I would think it’s better to have that moment of relevance rather than live out a life of obscurity. Does anyone remember Billy Ray Bates for anything but his brief moment of relevance and subsequent unmet expectations? Would he prefer to not be remembered at all?
My point is that the subsequent butchering simply doesn’t happen unless there’s some weird negative circumstance like Arenas. And lamenting that a player will only be remembered for a brief stretch of good play is just absurd considering the alternative is to not be remembered at all. Assuming they end up with similar career earnings/lengths, I don’t think anyone out there would prefer to be Anthony Carter than Jeremy Lin.
Butchered ...as in grown.... then harvested ...and bones thrown in a pile
Meaning the media is building him way up to be better than he actually is…..there are plenty of other players playing as well as he is but he is the story….and once they have bloated his story to the max …..whoosh…they will puncture him and then tell us about his colossal failure.
In the end he will have been neither that good….not that bad…but that is not what we will have been sold
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
That's certainly a much more charitable connotation for "butchered"
than I’ve ever seen, but whatever. In addition, unless there are some citations to the deluge of stories in the media about the colossal failures of Tim Tebow losing to the Pats, or Jimmer Fredette and Kemba Walker’s NBA careers, that’s a fairly absurd assumption to make. The guys who get those kinds of profiles tend to be the guys who come in with high expectations and subsequently fail for some reason; your Greg Odens, your Kwame Browns, your Michael Olowokandis (#1 picks all).
Also, this point:
there are plenty of other players playing as well as he is
is simply not true. If Lin had played enough minutes to qualify for the PER leaderboard, he would be tied with Dwight Howard for 6th right now, with every player above him a former top 5 pick. Who would these “plenty of other players” be?
And as I said before, playing well isn’t enough to make him a big story; the huge confluence of other factors I listed above, in addition to playing well, makes him a big story.
I am not going to actually do this ....but....
…don’t you suppose I could find several players over the last few years that put up those kind of numbers for a very limited amount of time?…key word “limited”
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 12:12 PM PST up reply actions
Personally, I doubt it
And even if you were to find some, they would lack the narrative elements. The constant ESPN stories about Lin pretty regularly reference the fact that no player does this in the “first X starts of their career” and compare his stats to, say, Lebron’s first 10 starts. The narrative isn’t just that he’s playing well, it’s that he’s come out of nowhere to play well, along with race, etc.. No one cares if MJ or Magic put up these numbers, because we expected them to. A big reason people care about Lin is because no one saw this coming.
But really, that’s beside the point, your original argument was:
there ARE plenty of other players playing as well as he IS…
Which is empirically not true. Today’s media is going to cover SOMETHING, and Lin is a great NBA story right now. I don’t know too many people who are drooling to read more about Lebron’s current dominance, which is arguably the next most interesting NBA story at the moment.
ok
so none are currently doing it ….I will grant you that . But I think you understood the point I was making and chose to ignore it …which is that without what you want to call “the narrative element”, what he is doing is largely ordinary….nice …but not that unusual, and the"the narrative element" is largely created by the media.
PS There is a reason you have to a minimum number of minutes to qualify for the leaderboards (PER)….to account for weird anomalies in the small sample size
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
A fairly common cutoff— Hollinger uses it— is 500 minutes played for the season. Lin is already at 472.
Few undrafted players have played 472 minutes at this level. Any undrafted guy doing this would be newsworthy.
I don’t get why the fact that in addition to being undrafted he’s also an Asian American out of Harvard (either of those on its own would make him extremely unique) isn’t worthy of the extra press. Its a great story. Obviously, being in NY adds to it also, which may bother some, but that’s life.
The "Narrative elements"
are empirical. It’s not up for debate whether Lin was undrafted, or waived, or a Harvard grad, or Taiwanese-American. These are all facts, and yes, it’s more interesting when someone with those attributes does it than when Lebron does it. I’m sorry, but that’s just reality, not a media creation. And yes, even with all those caveats, it’s still pretty unusual for a guy to average 24 and 9.5 on 50/40 shooting for 10 games with an 8-2 record (Lin’s stats as a starter).
Also, I was just using the BB-R tables for the season, which also excludes Dwyane Wade, despite the fact that he has started 24 games for the Heat. Looking at Hollinger’s NBA stats page on ESPN, we see Lin qualifies as 8th (Wade also ahead of him) among qualified players, .03 points behind Howard. He’s started 10 games now, after all.
"I don’t know too many people who are drooling to read more about Lebron’s current dominance"
Yeah, LeBron’s narrative won’t take shape again until the postseason.
Right now, the sports media is glossing over his jaw-dropping regular season due to most casual fans being bored by LBJ’s current exploits. To them, he’s done this before and it’s nothing new. Thus, in LeBron’s case, his season will be defined solely on whether or not the Heat win a title this year.
That said, I think that the sports media’s best-case scenario would be for the Heat to make the NBA Finals and once again blow it somehow.
With James, pushing the negative spin is a draw. LeBron’s tale isn’t a feel-good story — such as that of Jeremy Lin — but rather one of failed expectations, which Joe Schmoe can use to feel good about himself.
It’s kind of like how I watch Intervention or Hoarders to feel good about my pathetic life, since my crappy life is at least not as pitiful as theirs.
On the other hand, though, a lot of average people like Lin and Tebow in the same way they envy someone who’s won the lottery jackpot. It’s a way of thinking that if those two can overcome the odds, then so can they.
"they will puncture him and then tell us about his colossal failure."
With Lin, that won’t sell.
We’re not talking about someone such as Miley Cyrus, whose downfall will be an interesting tale in all likelihood. Think LiLo’s current struggles, y’know.
On that note, SNL should be interesting on March 3rd. Lindsanity > Linsanity.
Anyhow, when Jeremy Lin finally falls, he’ll be ignored by the mainstream media. I can’t think of any way for his downfall to be interesting, unless it’s Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds esque.
All in all, I can’t see Lin ever being maligned by the media. Ignored and forgotten, but not maligned.
I agree completely
While media cycles can be vicious, there’s no reason to think that Lin will be “butchered” or turned on should he fade. There isn’t really anything shocking or attention grabbing about a guy not being good anymore. Like you say, the tabloid media is much more interested in the fall from grace, so unless Lin starts bringing guns to the locker room, leaving steroids on the bench, or careening over fans while on a illicit drug rush, they really wouldn’t have an interest in piling on.
Right, his popularity will likely just fade if his performance regresses.
Like you, I can’t fathom a scenario where he gets turned on by the media.
Why is everyone so certain that Lin will regress to the mean?
Is it because he came in with fresh legs in a season when most players are fatigued?
No one thinks he may actually be very good…a fairly smart person who will only get better as he learns more?
Actually, I'm probably in the minority in believing he'll regress ...
from being a superstar-level player — which he has been over this stretch — to a good, yet not great player.
I wouldn't say you're in the minority on that
do people really think the 24+ ppg 9+apg .800 win % is sustainable?
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
AK is assuming that the majority opinion
is that he will eventually regress to being an average to below average NBA player or simply go back to being a 12th man type.
No, I truly believe a lot of non-NBA fans who are now ...
watching due to Jeremy Lin think he can sustain this.
Among NBA fans, I think most of them are more realistic in what’ll happen over the next few months.
So they (the media) will just stop talking about him?
just stop?
I am sorry but I just don’t think that is the way it will go down
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
I don't think that was a point I was arguing here.
I don’t think that people will just out of the blue stop talking about Jeremy Lin; rather, it’s that I don’t agree with the idea that if Lin never becomes an all-star they won’t jump on him and talk about how he’s just a bum and that people were stupid to believe in him.
If Lin regresses, the national media — particularly the non-sports, ...
tabloid media — will move onto someone (or something) else. Unless he does something extraordinarily outrageous off the court, his decline won’t be all that interesting.
As I sort of got into above, the reason that LeBron James’ crunch-time follies are so enthralling is due to the whole failed expectations angle.
With Lin, his individual production regressing — along with the Knicks winning less as its schedule toughens — is to be expected; thus, that won’t cause a stir. Rather than the media getting riled up, the story will just die down.
"Maybe that’s a terrible injustice to him"
If anything, he’s playing with house money. Lin should thank his lucky stars he even reached D-list level fame. For a pro athlete — particularly one who hasn’t had long-lasting success or won anything of value — that’s an impressive feat. Things will soon come back down to earth for him, but he should at least enjoy his 15 minutes.
That last bit was a little sarcasm
As long as Lin keeps playing well, he’ll get covered. When he stops, he won’t. Brandon Jennings seems to somehow survived scoring 55 in his first week as an NBA player, after all.
Even so, Jeremy Lin is closer in terms of fame to Tim Tebow than he is Brandon ...
Jennings. Although Lin will continue to be covered in NBA circles after he regresses, he’ll lose that mainstream coverage — specifically junk like Kim Kardashian tweeting he’s “cute” or whatever, SNL doing a parody sketch about him, or The Huffington Post covering Lin related news — that’s currently propelling him.
Absolutely agreed
but if BJ managed to sustain his play for a couple weeks, we’d probably have gotten to a somewhat similar, albeit lesser level of hype. Obviously there’s more of a media ceiling for him without the racial/Harvard/undrafted angles for Jennings, just like Tebow would have been less hyped without the whole “faith” angle.
One thing left out of Dave's analysis of the Lin saga is the role race plays.
As someone who spent the last four years in New York City at an Ivy League school and surrounded by close friends and NBA addicts like myself, many of which were Asian-American, I am pretty familiar with the demographic than Lin is most appealing to. Make no mistake the fact that he his Asian-American matters, and it matters in a big way. Contrary to your observation, though, my friends aren’t casual or uninformed basketball fans, but devoted followers of teams other than Knicks, some of whom are currently writing for well-known online sports syndications.
The point I would make here is that he isn’t hyped because he is playing well so much as because he is playing AND he is Asian-American. Because of this, the hype becomes that much more dangerous. I hope as much as the next guy that Lin’s play is sustainable and future generations of Asian-American basketball players are inspired by his story. However, the reality is that he might not be for real, in which case the hype makes his story one of failure rather than as the step (however modest) in the positive direction it should be considered.
by SabasTheHut on Feb 23, 2012 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's a question to which I don't know the answer, but am curious about.
Which figure is more glorified by their respective community: Lin w/ Asian-Americans or Tebow w/ evangelical Christians?
I think Lin definitely has an edge here.
You don’t have to look very hard or very far to find a professional athlete who is devoutly Christian. Tebow is certainly more visible, but not necessarily in any good way. He isn’t defying stereotypes so much as he is one.
by SabasTheHut on Feb 23, 2012 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
He was talking about Tebow being the prototype christian athelete
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
Haha.
Yeah I was referring to Tebow in that last line. But believe it or not, a sizable amount of Asian-Americans are very Christian. Step on almost any campus and you will at least one student group of Asian (usually Korean and Taiwanese) worshippers. Probably has something to do with the US occupation of South Korea in the 1950s, and Taiwan’s long association with the US as a democracy.
I think Tebow’s constituency is more folks who worship at the altar of college football than anything else.
i keep dancing on my own.
How much does the tight relationship with born-again Christians from the South and ...
amateur football play into the whole Tebow phenomenon?
As an atheist from the Pacific Northwest who prefers NFL football to amateur football, it’s admittedly hard for me to understand the lunacy behind TebowMania.
It’s undeniable that religion is part of it, but there are a lot of religious (even conservative) athletes, so that’s not the entirety of it. People that like college football like the tribalism and redbloodedness of it, so they like the idea of that triumphing where the NFL “experts” or whatever say it couldn’t. The religion part dovetails nicely with it, but it’s not the whole thing IMO.
i keep dancing on my own.
It is an interesting phenomenon, to be sure.
However, there are some of us out there who appreciate Tebow without the insanity that comes with it. I root for Tebow not because I think he’s a great guy or that he’s the second coming or anything like that; as a fan of the Broncos, I see his success, whether real or imagined, feeding into the success of my team, riding luck, pluck, and a great defense on a run to the playoffs.
Oh, I wouldn't argue that point
Although I do think that the demographic you’re experienced with is a little more grounded in their expectations for Lin. My devoted NBA fan friends (some of them Asian-Americans) have generally loved the Lin story, but I don’t see any of them being absolutely crushed by his inevitable regression, wherever he finally ends up on the continuum of NBA talent.
At the same time, I just don’t see how this turns into a story of failure. The baseline for Jeremy Lin going into his NBA career is failure, anything he’s achieved beyond that is an unadulterated positive. If anything, “Lin-sanity” should be proof enough already that guys like Lin can compete at an NBA level with NBA athletes without being a physical oddity like Yao Ming, and in that sense has done far more than Yi Jianlian or Sun Yue ever did for basketball players of Asian descent.
I guess I just disagree.
I am more of a relativist when it comes to things, so I think success is measured to a large degree based on expectations. Thus, I don’t necessarily think that Lin’s career will will ultimately be considered an “unadulterated success”. It’s only my sincere hope.
I mean, few people would consider Odens eighty-something games a successful career or even one to admire, though by most objective standards they were highly productive.
by SabasTheHut on Feb 23, 2012 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
82 productive games may be a highly successful career
for an undrafted player with no expectations like Lin, but definitely not for one of the most hyped center prospects ever, particularly when that prospect hype was nearly a half decade in the making. Definitely can agree to disagree, but I just see no way that this past week puts Lin anywhere close to Oden-level expectations, whether it be for Asian-Americans, or the rest of the population.
It seems as though you are willing to admit expectations do factor in when considering the success of a player’s career. I would just state that Lin’s expectations are no longer that of an un-drafted free agent, even if they aren’t as large as Oden’s. We just clearly disagree at which point along that dichotomy those expectations lie, and whether they are unmanageable or not.
As a response to a point you made above, my friends were Lin-crazy well before this season. They followed him closely as he tore up the Ivy League his senior year, and watched him play at Columbia when he visited. They talked about him a lot when he signed with Golden State later as well. I regularly received emails with youtube clips of a Lin lay-up in garbage time. These last few weeks, though, have been like giving crack to a 3rd grader. And I can almost guarantee you that in the event Lin regresses or fades for good, their future reactions will undoubtedly be ones of disappointment. I mean how could they not be? We’ve spent the last few weeks carving his face in Olympus (even in jest, those things have a way of manifesting themselves as partial reality over time).
Having also attended an Ivy League school and now living in Palo Alto, I’ve been following Lin for years too. I thought he had a shot of making an NBA roster but never expected him to become an impact player, even for a few weeks. If he regresses tomorrow to being a 3rd string PG— which I don’t expect— it will be disappointing, but for a guy who wasn’t thought good enough for a scholarship from a single D1 school (even the likes of the U of San Francisco, which scouted him and passed), that would still be a hell of an accomplishment.
I agree completely.
I hope nobody is mistaking my argument for one that considers him a failure if he should fade. I am only referring to the general consciousness here, for which a very real possibility is that he will be a disappointment, despite that being a very unfair assessment. And that assessment could have been avoided my managing expectations better now.
Out of curiosity, what school did you attend?
Sorry, I think I overstepped the bounds of my argument
I didn’t mean to say it wouldn’t be disappointing at all if he regresses to become an average player (personally I see him ending up somewhere in the mid-tier, say a little better than a Mike Conley/Darren Collison), but just that the lasting impact won’t be that of a bitter disappointment even in a worst case scenario.
It’d be like comparing the cases of Yao and Kwame Brown. Both are clearly disappointing, but the disappointment in Yao’s career is almost a positive, “what if?” scenario, while Kwame is seen universally negatively. I’d place Lin’s current situation closer to Yao’s rather than Kwame, given that he’s proven he can produce, if only for a limited time.
As a thought experiment, would the situation be more or less disappointing than if Lin had simply bounced around the fringes of the NBA for a few years without catching on before bolting to Europe? I, personally, would say more disappointing, but that’s just me.
I agree....if (when) he drops back to earth
and ESPN reports on it 5 years from now ……he will be remembered for not being able to sustain his stardom …..not for exceeding his mediocrity
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
Nope, I disagree wholeheartedly.
He’ll be remembered for being the first American-born Taiwanese basketball player to make an impact in the NBA.
as well as the most accomplished Harvard alum, and depending on how much he regresses, the most accomplished Ivy League alum since Chris Dudley, Brian Taylor or Geoff Petrie.
Finally someone
can knock Bill Bradley off his perch.
He was an all star on a Knicks title team?
To be fair, that’s ten times more than most of our retired player #’s accomplished. Still, pretty ugly career stats.
Looking at Yao Ming, it's clear that people remember him more for being ...
the first Chinese-born athlete to succeed greatly the NBA. That’ll always come before the career-derailing injuries and failed expectations as a #1 pick, which is why some folks arguing he should be immediately elected to the Basketball Hall of Fame as a contributor.
I know that was kind of a sidebar, but it's just proof of which narrative ...
outweighs the other in these kind of situations.
This is well said
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
Lin
There is some credit due to someone who is playing well right now and there is of course also a large amount of credit due to someone who performs well over a long career.
One thing is that since Lin is at the beginning of his career he has not had the opportunity to do the latter.
Secondly, how a guy is playing today is not trivial. A guy who steps in, puts up record numbers for a newbie, and turns a losing team into a winning team, is someone that deserves a lot of credit even under a worst case scenario where he fizzles out shortly thereafter.
I'm most impressed by
the determination of the Zebras to send Lin to the line Lin’s ability to draw fouls.
He’s played a quarter of Nash’s minutes and yet has attempted more free throws… wow.
In a completely unrelated story, can we please have hand-checking back? Thank you, Stern.
Prz helps marginally, Dave?
Yes, that’s accurate enough and it may be enough.
Veteran’s minimum for Prz? Sold. No brainer.
Effect on team play? Higher.
Rest for old man Camby/Thomas? Yes.
Style of play/contributions? Yes.
Effect on the crowd and the team every time he checks in? Priceless.
by HoopsFan on Feb 23, 2012 9:08 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
If Nate is feeling heat about his job
Is there any reason to believe that he’s going to play the young guns? If he feels that his job is on the line, he’s only going to play the veterans that he trusts.
I’m not saying that the heat is really on – I have no way of knowing if that’s true or not. But if the speculation about it being real is correct….
Steve Nash has just gotten Nashtier.
Post D’Antoni dip was 90% due to Porter slowing the pace. Of course the system a player is in contextualizes their performance, mediating the impact of their skill and talent on the game, and structuring the opportunities for them to shine. Nash learned to be Nash with D’Antoni, but saying that his value and ability was blown out of proportion by the system is like saying ice cream is better when it’s hot. OK, but it’s still ice cream. I WANT ICE CREAM!
by 77ComeBack on Feb 23, 2012 9:42 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
I disagree with the premise that Lin will naturally stop being a good ball player.
Call me an optimist, but it wouldn’t hurt to ease up on the rush to get out in front of the media in terms of burying his career before it gets started. Perhaps he will significantly drop off and disappear; on the other hand, perhaps it is a little premature to make the assumption that is what his future must be.
To me that's not the point at all
Rather that even if Lin turns out to be a good ball player he’s going to be deemed a disappointment because of the artificially-inflated hype. Let’s say he played 10 more years and averaged 14 points, 6 assists for his career. That’s good. It’s great for a guy who was undrafted and drifting around training camps. A 10-year career of any stripe would be amazing, let alone one with those numbers. But consider: would he be getting his own category on the ESPN ticker with those numbers? He literally had his own line the other night: NCAA, NBA, NFL, Tennis, Lin. Does that happen at 14 and 6? Not even close.
The point isn’t that he’s not a good player or won’t be one. The point is that he’d need to be Jordan-esque in order to keep up with this level of hype. That’s highly unlikely. And when he falls short of that, people are going to pan him or call his career a let down when actually it will have probably been a great accomplishment.
The side-effect of this cycle is that they’ve set him up to fail. And they don’t care one bit about it—there’s no incentive to speak truth in these matters—because when he succeeds they get buzz and when he falls short they’ll get buzz. They profit when people think he’s the next Magic and Oscar and Larry rolled into one. They profit when people complain about him eventually falling short of that. They don’t profit anywhere in the middle, which is almost certainly where the actual Lin is.
—Dave
by Dave on Feb 23, 2012 1:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Even if he developes into just an average player, he'll first be remembered as someone who broke ...
the barrier for American-born players of Asian descent.
Think Yao Ming, who’s remembered first and foremost as the first Chinese-born NBA star — for neither Wang Zhizhi nor Mengke Bateer were stars — rather than as a one-time #1 draft pick who failed to meet expectations and suffered from career-derailing injuries.
Really?
…he’ll …be remembered as someone who broke …the barrier for American-born players of Asian descent.
If drops back to being just a middle of the road player do you really think he will even get that ? What if a really big Asian-American star takes off in about 30 years…a really big star who gets invited to the dunk contest or something ….and he rolls out with his Jeremy Lin jersey on …you know to honor the first American Born Asian star? Probably some future version of Kenny and Reggie will just make fun of it because they won’t remember who Lin was.
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
Sure, why not ?
If we are gonna speculate what he is gonna be remembered for (which is AK’s contention) I can speculate who is gonna do the remembering.
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You think the world is going change that much in the next 30 years ?
Good luck with that
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
My point was that even if TNT still employs the likes of Kenny and Reggie in 30 years, and they don’t remember Lin, that won’t mean he’s been forgotten.
Sadly ...it does
because they are the ones telling the kids what and what is not relevant vis a vis NBA basketball.
Does TNT or ESPN tell us anything about Earl Lloyd? Uh…no. Why would some future version bother telling us about Jeremy Lin. Sad but true
"What began as a credible protest against bank bailouts, crony capitalism and the like has, in large measure, been hijacked by crazies and criminals,"
by 92wastheyear on Feb 23, 2012 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
Let's not overstate the NBA significance of Fernando Martin
While I don’t doubt that it may have been a landmark for Spanish basketball in specific, he was essentially completely insignificant in his impact on the NBA overall. Even as a scrub in GS last year Jeremy Lin played double the minutes that Martin did in his entire NBA career.
Joking about it was certainly in bad taste, but it’s not like Martin was someone even most avid NBA watchers could have pulled off the top of their heads. Similarly, I wouldn’t think it’s an affront if a future Russian or Serbian player confounded announcers by showing up in a Bazarevich or Paspalj jersey for some all star weekend event.
Yes, he appeared in all of 24 NBA games and played 146 minutes in one season
He tragically died young and is still remembered in Spain so it was great that Rudy honored him by wearing his jersey when he became the first Spanish (or even International?) dunk contest participant. And Kenny and Reggie should have paid attention to their third man explaining what the tribute was about or read their notes.
But Martin is not comparable to Lin already. He won’t be that obscure of a reference 20 years later.
If Fernando Martin is comparable to any recent pro athlete, it's Greg Halman.
Do I, as a Seattle guy, expect someone in Atlanta or New York to remember Halman? No, I don’t.
"They profit when people complain about him eventually falling short of that."
Nah, that’ll be a non-story. The narrative there is boring. Once Lin’s production drops and he falls short in the playoffs, the national sports media’s focus on the NBA will shift away from Lin and toward LeBron James with the Miami Heat. Unlike Lin, James failing is a way more interesting narrative for a multitude of reasons — which I sort of discussed in an above comment within this thread — but most of all due to the ol’ “the bigger they are, the harder they fall” saying.
It's obviously unsustainable
But I would have said that 5 games ago, too, yet here we are. I think part of the problem is how should we expect the media to deal with something that really is unprecedented? Particularly today in the age of media saturation. 10 games isn’t really THAT insignificant, and looking through the available game logs at BB-R, there are essentially no comps for the first 10 starts of a player’s career. Grant Hill, David Robinson, and Shaq are really the only comparably impressive ones I can find (admittedly they don’t have data for MJ, Magic, or Bird) and obviously all of those guys had legit expectations entering the league. But that’s better than Lebron’s, Wade’s, Duncan’s, Iverson’s, Griffin and Kidd’s first 10 starts.
While I’d agree that the Lin-specific ticker box is a little much, it’s not like ESPN never does that, and at some point someone has to point out that yes, what we’re seeing is pretty ridiculous. I don’t really see them going out of their way to cherry pick comparisons so much as Lin’s current performance is just confounding most comparisons. At some point, it gets irresponsible to pretend that what Jeremy Lin’s current performance isn’t legitimately impressive.
flash in the pan theory
I have a hard time believing the theory that Lin is a mirage. However, I would find it more plausible if there are past examples of someone who became a starter, put up record numbers for a new player in a starting lineup, and then fizzled out shortly thereafter.
Flip Murray
I don’t know about “record numbers for a new player”, but what Flip Murray did with Seattle one November a few years ago is a decent comparison to Lin in some ways. Kevin Pelton had an excellent (free) piece about it at basketballprospectus the other day.
I tend to think (and certainly hope) that Lin is a better player than Flip Murray going forward, though.
by jumphook on Feb 23, 2012 4:21 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Gilbert Arenas
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Feb 23, 2012 5:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Billy Ray Bates
BRB’s demise wasn’t a lack of talent, he was mature enough to handle the down time
When reached 40+ years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
1) I'm sure other guys have repeated pointed out the whole "DAntoni makes point guards look good" fallacy.
Nash has been just as good minus DAntoni, a lot of other point guards have washed out, Felton was only a little better under Dantoni than he was in Charlotte, etc etc.
Lin’s play has legitimately been extremely impressive. He’s currently 3rd in PER for point guards for the season (so that includes his less impressive numbers in spot minutes as a third string guy). I think pretty much all the cognoscenti is fairly comfortable saying that he’ not actually better than Nash and Westbrook.
But it’s pretty clear that he’s not purely a fluke—the sample size is too large at this point, plus he’s obvious got real NBA level talent—he can get past his man, he’s a good finisher, and he’s quite good at hitting big man rollers cutting to the hoop and at hitting spot up shooters when defenses collapse. It’s no coincidence that Chandler and Novak have looked so great since Lin’s started.
But even if he falls back to earth and ends up being, say, an average starter point guard, the Lawson/Calderon/Lowry tier, I think the Knicks and Knicks fans would still be ecstatic. Before Lin, they had a grimmer point guard picture than the Blazers. Wouldn’t Blazers nation be ecstatic if a Lawson/Calderon/Lowry fell in our laps off the waiver wire? I don’t see Knicks fans (which means by extension around half the sports media talking heads) doing anything but circling the wagons if Lin falls back at that level. And I do think that’s likely to be his floor, and he’s more likely destined for the better than average, not quite elite level.
2) I know you’ve been very consistent about the whole young players have to prove they’re better than starters to earn their playing time thing, and that’s obviously what Nate thinks. Nate of course lost his starting role to Gary Payton when GP was an untested rookie, and is still bitter about it to this day.
Does anyone besides Nate McMillan think that was a mistake? Nate was a second rounder who peaked at 9 and 10 per 36 minutes. Gary Payton was a second overall pick and an eventual HOF player. Would things have gone better for GP if he’d been kept on the bench his first couple of years, and missed out on several major playoff battles?
Second, all of this “make the young uns” makes sense and sounds satisfying. But St. Popovich doesn’t do it. Ergo it must be wrong.
by howlingfantods on Feb 23, 2012 1:42 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
oops, that last sentence was supposed to be
“Second, all of this “make the young us earn it” makes sense etc etc"
by howlingfantods on Feb 23, 2012 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
Great writing on Lin
But I think there’s a contradiction here. Dave admits that “sports media folks have always been in the exaggeration business” but later states that “in my view the media’s job is to tell the story.” One’s the way things are, the other’s the way things should be. I couldn’t agree more with the sentiments, and I personally read the writers who don’t manufacture hype. Quality reporting isn’t as important to the business end of sports as hype is, though. At the end of the day a network that shows NBA games or a newspaper that needs a local team’s ad dollar is going to want writers that amp the hype until fans demand something different. And this has improved greatly in recent years — there’s more good stuff out there than when Hunter Thompson called sportswriters "a mean subculture of fascist drunks — but the hype machine won’t go away until fans stop paying attention to it.
So thanks readers here and elsewhere who go to better places to get their information!
Steve Goodman lives.
Both Spurs and Clips beat Denver
which gives us a little breathing room in the 8th place spot. Wouldn’t really take much more than a repeat of our cruddy first half a season to make the playoffs.
Some of these teams are completely decimated with injuries
Spurs and Nuggets both are just really struggling with injury trouble. I can’t really feel sorry for them that much but it’s just weird to see so many other teams following in our footsteps. It looks like making the playoffs with a somewhat healthy roster might be a huge advantage this season.

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