Elliott Williams Is Right Where He Should Be w/Poll
by lumberjak on Feb 22, 2012 9:10 AM PST
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I don't typically write many FanPosts, but I had to write this one. A lot of my friends and a lot of posts and comments on here are calling for an increase in Elliott Williams' playing time. This whole "Free Elliott Williams" thing has got to stop. I'm not daft - I do understand that he is explosive and can throw down with the best of them. That, and he has a great shooting percentage because of it. Most of his shots come within -1" of the rim. I would hope he has a good shooting percentage! (54%). Looking beyond the wow-inducing dunks he throws down, however, I'm left wanting. Has anyone seen him shut down a starting caliber or even 2nd string caliber 2 guard yet? I don't see any defense or any aggressiveness anywhere other than his drives through the lane. Defense is imperative for a 2 guard. You have a 2 on the floor for scoring and shut down defense. The best 2 guards in the league do both. The good ones do one of them well and are serviceable at the other (Wes Matthews kills on defense but is barely serviceable on offense - he's good in spurts). The "bottom of the benchers" are usually the ones that can't play efficient defense but are a weapon in some capacity on offense. That's where Elliott Williams comes in. He's a liability on defense - and on offense, too for that matter. His 3-point percentage is 29%. His free throw percentage is 37%!! A 2 guard who relies on getting to the rim for his offensive production better be able to shoot free throws too if he wants to be on the court for any period of time - but he can't. I have to agree that his dunks are amazing - but he's right where he should be rotation-wise. Batum is more consistent than Matthews at scoring and is on par defensively. Batum starting at the 2 and Matthews backing him up rightfully eats up the minutes at the 2. It was fun watching Williams light it up against San Antonio's C-Squad, but let's not blow this out of proportion. Eh?
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Not sure I'd say he's a liability on defense...
but Batum and Matthews are obviously better at this point in his career. I think we can agree he’s much better at finishing than Matthews is on the fast break! But really, it’s too early and he’s had too little playing time to evaluate him on his shooting numbers. He’s played all of 111 minutes in his career…
#7
by clinchmobb on Feb 22, 2012 9:39 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
completely agree.
And will add…free throw shooting is something MOST people can do. Including you and I most likely. If our adrenaline isn’t pumping and we are not REALLY tall..as in Shaq tall.
Am pretty sure E Will can shoot free throws very well given the chance to calm his nerves. This will take experience doing it. And he is more than likely going to be able to draw fouls. Seems he has a few times in his very limited playing time.
He can also hit 3s fairly well it seems…this may be more difficult against teams who run out on him.
Defense can be learned. And Williams seems more than willing to work to do so.
as a side note to your Shaq comment
I think it is more had size then height, though it probably is both. But the larger your hand is the smaller the ball is in comparison and because harder to have a shooting touch.
Supposedly this is why Rondo can't shoot free throws
Apparently his hands are huge for his size.
by Batumshakalaka on Feb 22, 2012 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
that's also why he's such a great passer/ballhandler
"Wide, girthy. Just like a Rhino. Sometimes my horns are visible."
Question
At a 29% average shooting the three, how can it seem like he can shoot the 3 ball fairly well. Also – as far as free throw shooting goes – 39% is REALLY bad. More shots is bound to bring that up, I would hope – but do you really feel like it would increase that much? I’d like just one example of someone starting off that bad and then turning it around. His limited playing time doesn’t make him miss free throws – I’m pretty sure it would be the other way around. You earn your way to the court – not vise versa.
he has shot a total of like 10 in his carreer
the percentage is meaningless right now.
by skott75 on Feb 22, 2012 4:31 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
yeah...
it’s not like we’ve never seen this guy play basketball before. he shot 76% from the line at memphis. i imagine that’s a much more indicative stat than his first 16 in the pros. i also think its fair to expect a 22 year old to improve his game, including shooting, given some playing time.
by permaswoon on Feb 22, 2012 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
There's this thing before the NBA called college.
One reason I like college basketball is that it tells us Elliot Williams shot 7.5 free throws per game and hit 5.7 of those, for a roughly 75% shooting percentage. As far as I know, unlike the 3 pt. line the free throw line is the same distance in the NBA as it is in college. So I think the kid can make some free throws, though there’s room for improvement.
And in case you’re wondering, he hit 36% on threes in college. Oh, and that’s better than 3 out of Matthews 4 years in college, and better than every one of Batum’s European seasons before he came to he NBA. Just sayin’ …
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
by bfan on Feb 22, 2012 6:29 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I can see your point on the free throw percentage.
An honest question – what do you think it is that makes him miss so much more in the pros? I can’t believe it’s chance. There has to be something – intimidation perhaps? Does he not have a competitive streak that would cause him to bring his A-game – even after a game is decided? 75% is fair – not stellar, but par for shooting guards. And I know the sample size is low – but there’s something there. 39% is terrible.
As far as the 3 point thing goes – some people translate better than others – saying Williams was better in college than Matthews and therefore will be better in the pros – or that we should even expect him to be similar in the pros – isn’t a realistic expectation. There is a chance he was better in college and won’t be in the pros. I would be more apt to compare how Matthews did in his first X attempts vs Williams – but even then I agree the sample size would be too low to compare. The comparisons I was making to Matthews was regarding playing time right now – not potential. Just to throw that out there.
It's a fair question.
I’m guessing it’s a product of being stuck into a game for seconds at a time. You warm up, then sit for 45 minutes, then play the last 1.5 minutes of the half or something, then sit for another 45 minutes, then play another couple of minutes. I’m amazed anyone who plays at all under those circumstances makes anything. Coupe with that all the pressure in the world of knowing that if you don’t produce you won’t get time. (Look at Nolan Smith while we’re at it. He his mid70-mid80% through 4 years of college on FTs. Now he’s hitting 60%. Not as extreme as Elliot, but I think it’s the same principle.
I didn’t mean to say I necessarily think Elliot will be better or even as good as Matthews based on one year of college ball. But I do think looking at college numbers is enough to say that he’s probably better than the 29% he’s showing right now. Shooting percentages are something that typically translate well from NCAA to NBA. I guess what I’m trying to say is that I think Williams is probably even better than what he’s shown in limited minutes—given that he missed a year, he’s not practicing, and his college numbers were stellar as a sophomore in a new program. That last bit there is probably the most telling.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
It would be hard to be expected to perform at the highest level without being warm.
I think the 2nd stringers do the same thing though – warm up and then sit for a 20+ minutes through introductions and the first 8 minutes of the game plus commercial breaks and time-outs. I mean – it makes sense, but the amount of an effect it has, I’d wonder about. The Nolan Smith comparison seems viable – that fear of underperforming…I could see that.
Regarding Wes at a similar point in his career
If we consider minutes, Wes was 1/8 on threes in the first ~110 minutes of his career. That’s 12.5%.
Over his first 17 attempts, he improved to 6/17. That’s 35% and once more make than Elliot.
Looking at games, through his first 19 he was 15/40. That’s 37.5%.
The takeaway point? Looking at 3pt, FT or even FG percentages at this point is beyond irrelevant. We should be looking at the way he’s playing at let the stats accumulate to the point where they’re actually relevant.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
I like those trending statistics
It definitely gives argument to increasing his minutes – good point.
as far as Batum goes, he was 19 when he started his NBA career.
Wonder how many 3s he attempted in the prior 3 yrs….?
Let us know!! I don’t know where to find that info.
Looks like he attempted about 173.
DraftExpress.com for comprehensive college/Euro stats. Elliot is only 6 months older than Batum.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
I welcome teams running at him.
As it looks like he will dribble right past them and dunk.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
by bfan on Feb 22, 2012 6:17 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
at this point in [their] career?
Batum and Matthews were better at every point in career than Williams will ever be. That’s not a knock necessarily, because Batum is an elite defender, and Matthews is a very good defender.
Personally, I think Williams shooting numbers will level out with consistent playing time and more time against legit second-unit guys rather than garbage-time guys/situations.
M, period. Fresh, comma.
by manzell on Feb 22, 2012 12:40 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Well it is a knock...
Williams didn’t play basketball for a year. He’s barely a hundred minutes into his career. He was drafted higher than Batum and obviously the undrafted Matthews. Obviously, someone thought he had talent. To say they have been better at every point in their careers than Williams will ever be is a bit premature in my opinion. I would say the jury is still out. To say they were better a hundred minutes into their careers is as big a stretch. Elliot certainly looks to have much more promise on the offensive end than Matthews ever will (to use your approach to judging talent)…
Furthermore, considering Matthews went undrafted, he is the perfect case study (for Elliot and others) of where exactly hard work can get you in this league. By all accounts, Elliot is one of the hardest working guys on the team. Give him a chance…
#7
by clinchmobb on Feb 22, 2012 1:58 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
I would agree
Which is why, at 100 minutes into his career, I think it’s ridiculous to call for him to start when he has Batum and Matthews ahead of him. Position in the draft doesn’t always directly translate to talent and I agree that it’s more about work. I see that Elliott works hard – but that doesn’t mean he’s ready, you know? He has to get better at defense – if he can’t defend the garbage time guys, how can we expect him to defend the 2nd unit guys or even starters? He’s just so far from ready for consistent minutes.
The call for him to start
has more to do with the guys ahead of him sucking than his own awesomeness.
I'm not calling for him to start...
I’m saying it’s too early to pass judgement, AKA too small of sample size…
#7
by clinchmobb on Feb 22, 2012 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Ironically
That’s exactly what I’m saying. Why would we call for him to start when 1) the sample size is so low and 2) he’s underperformed in very important areas in the opportunities he has had.
Whos calling for him to start?
look at your poll
by thegreatwhitehope on Feb 22, 2012 10:15 PM PST up reply actions
I meant calling for more minutes
Sorry. I didn’t mean that people were calling for him to start. My point was that he is rightfully behind both Matthews and Batum and hasn’t earned more minutes. That’s what I was trying to say. “The call for more minutes” was what I should have said.
Well, there is earning minutes, and then there's earning a good benching.
Which do you think Matthews has earned much of this season?
Felton and Matthews should have spent a little more time on the bench this year, due to their poor performance. If you need an excuse to get your ridiculously athletic young shooting guard some more real-time NBA experience, you’ve had it all year.
I’m just advocating a few more minutes, not a major line-up change.
That's not ironic
To answer #1, the only way to find out how good he is is to increase that sample size. #2 I’ve refuted below, despite the fact that it’s irrelevant either way considering he’s played 107 minutes.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
I disagree if you're saying it has to be in NBA games at this point
It may take longer with fewer practices, but you still don’t earn playing time by being given more playing time in games without earning it in practice first. If he “Jeremey Lin-ed it” and blew everyone’s mind, that theory might work. But most other players in the NBA practice well and earn playing time – then they’re given minutes. Point number 2 directly effects point number 1. Your sample size grows when you do well and earn more minutes.
You can't say he's underperformed (point 2) if you concede the sample size is too small to evaluate his performance.
And according to the poll, people are saying he’s earned more time which suggests he’s passed the ‘eyeball’ test and is not underperforming according to their standards (whatever they may be)…
#7
I'm not saying the sample size is too small to keep him on the bench
I’m saying it’s too small to merit more minutes. He’s underperformed in a lot of key areas in the minutes he has been given – if he had overperformed, I could see the sample size growing at a quicker rate. You earn sample size with your performance. He’s not “entitled” to any specific sample size – he has to overperform in the few minutes he is given and make us need him out there.
I really don't see why you think he's under-performed.
For an undersized 2, he rebounds and blocks shots like a lunatic. Despite shooting 3’s and FT’s below expectations, he’s got the team’s second highest TS%. He gets to the line almost at will, and has committed 4 TO’s in his career.
What key areas (plural) are you talking about? If it’s defense, he’s no worse than Crawford (and that’s being generous to Crawford), who’s getting rotation minutes at the 2.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
This
Nothing I have observed from him defensively or that can be seen in his limited results indicates he’s anything other than impressive for a rookie guard on that end.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
Seeing as you love SSS stats
Elliot is so far allowing .55 points per possession on defense. The guys he’s matched up against have shot 24.2% against him and he’s forced turnovers on 10.5% of his defensive possessions. That PPP figure? Good for 4th best in the league.
Can take one set of SSS stats as gospel and ignore another set.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
by MadBlaze on Feb 23, 2012 2:11 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
well, Batum started in his debut
and passed the 100 minute mark roughly 2 weeks in to his first season.
M, period. Fresh, comma.
No one is saying he's better than Batum...
it’s simply too early to judge his ceiling which you did by saying Batum and Matthews were better than Williams will ever be.
By the way he did not start in his debut. He played 4 minutes. Outlaw started at SF with LA, Oden, Roy, and Blake…
#7
by clinchmobb on Feb 22, 2012 4:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Did someone say
“way better than Williams will ever be?” I read through all the comments and I don’t see anywhere where anyone said that. You have to agree he’s not better than Batum and Matthews now – and potentially you’d agree that he’s not better than Crawford. Calling for him to replace Felton at the 1 would be as silly as calling for him to replace Craig Smith as the backup 4. The whole idea is that, right now, Elliott Williams is not good enough to be 2nd string – so people shouldn’t be so quick call “WITCH” on Nate…you know what I mean?
Manzell's comment above:
Batum and Matthews were better at every point in career than Williams will ever be. That’s not a knock necessarily, because Batum is an elite defender, and Matthews is a very good defender.
It doesn’t seem that anyone is calling for him to play over Matthews or Batum. But some additional minutes, giving the regular rotation guys additional rest, wouldn’t hurt anyone. And since the guys ahead of him are rather versatile, any of the perimeter guys could play a minute or two less per game and give us a significant look at EWill.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
ps
“Not as good as Batum” is simply not good enough to be valued contributor to a championship calibur team. So that’s my bar. You are effectively saying that at his peak value, he’ll still be expendable.
M, period. Fresh, comma.
I'm not saying that at all!
I’m saying it’s too early in his career to compare him to anyone let alone establish his ceiling!
#7
by clinchmobb on Feb 22, 2012 11:41 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You can't even make that comparison
Batum and Matthews both received more minutes in both quantity and quality their rookie seasons. Any court time E-Will sees is in garbage time with the rest of the bench, in a cramped, lockout-shortened season.
by superfly05 on Feb 22, 2012 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Batum's competition was Travis Outlaw
Wesley’s situation was unique. He “earned” his minutes by doing enough that it wasn’t worth paying the luxury ta to keep Ronnie Brewer.
You could say both players “earned” the spots in the rotation. But then you have to acknowledge that that Elliot’s situation makes it impossible for him to earn an opportunity similar to the ones Batum and Matthews got with the same amount of effort (note that I’m not saying Elliot has or has not put in the same amount of effort that Wes and Nic did, only that the Elliot cannot get the same opportunities without working much, much harder than those other players did).
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Yeah, the talent ahead of Elliot is considerably better than it was for Batum or Matthews...
He’s got to beat those guys out, whereas they had lesser competition to compete with (as in Matthews had none and Batum had Outlaw) when they became starters.
#7
No
Batum likely wouldn’t have gotten much run at all had Martell been healthy. Matthews landed in a situation where there was little SG talent (in a system where he could play SG) and was also fortunate that a few of the players competing with him for minutes were injured.
Both played well enough to keep their rotation minutes but it took specific circumstances for them to get that opportunity.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
Batum is not an elite defender and Matthews is not a very good defender
These ‘facts’ have no basis in evidence.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
a 2 guard doesn't need to guard a 2, if that makes sense
if our 2nd unit consists of Nolan Smith, E-Will, Wesley Matthews, Kurt Thomas, and say, Chris Johnson or Joel Przybilla that’s not terrible on defense. Mix in Wallace or Batum at the 3 if you need more defense but on offense that’s not a bad shooting group. In our offense the 2 and 3 spot is pretty interchangeable because of the size we have in those positions. Williams is 6’5", only a couple inches shorter than Crash (6’7") and Batum (6’8") and the same height as Wes Matthews. You can have any one of those three guys guard the other team’s better perimeter player and Williams can defend inside.
One thing is for sure is that he’s absolutely the best penetrate and finish guard that we have on this roster. You don’t get to throw down that many dunks by settling for crappy jumpers like way too many of our perimeter guys do.
by vitaminx on Feb 22, 2012 11:34 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Pryzbilla has not been on the team for a year
Sargent Time Capsule
La Illaha Illallah Muhamadur Rasulallah
He is now...
The smarter you are, the more likely you are to be tripping balls at any given moment.
/keep Batum and Aldridge/ /BLOW IT UP/
by gtbassett on Feb 22, 2012 2:03 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
I'm looking forward
to him serving our second unit, and serving it well.
by vitaminx on Feb 22, 2012 5:38 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The problem I have with your analysis is of the "chicken or the egg" variety.
You can’t find out what this guy can really do in meaningful minutes without playing him. But clearly, Nate is averse to playing rookies & young guys.
So of course you’re left wanting. We all are.
by Arby on Feb 22, 2012 11:54 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Chicken or the egg isn't quite the right analogy
You practice well, show that you are consistent, show you’re good at defense/shooting/court vision/intangibles/etc in practice – and earn your way to the court. So far he’s earned his way to garbage time and hasn’t produced very high percentages (in every category outside of dunking). You can find out enough to know whether he merits court time prior to putting him on the court against other teams. McMillan is only averse to playing players – young or old – who don’t have what it takes to merit the time.
It's too bad he hasn't been able to earn playing time
He’s obviously had plenty of time to prove himself. Training camp, summer league, preseason games, constant team practices throughout the season… if he can’t prove himself after all that then he must suck and should be traded for whatever we can get for him.
by Batumshakalaka on Feb 22, 2012 4:15 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Well played! :-)
LaMarcus All-Stardridge - 2012 All-Star Reserve!!!!
THE LAMONSTER ERA IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beautiful sarcasm
But the disadvantage of not having training camp, summer league, preseason games, and constant team practices throughout the season doesn’t automatically earn him minutes on the floor.
Exactly
So the only way for him to earn minutes on the floor is in fact minutes on the floor. You were implying that he should have proved himself somehow without any of that. Now, the only way for Nate to know what he’s got is to give him some spot minutes.
by Batumshakalaka on Feb 25, 2012 7:02 PM PST up reply actions
I disagree in principle that this idea applies to every player.
Take a look at Jeremy Lin, for instance. Obviously the guy can flat out play. Are we to assume he didn’t hit the court for 2 years on 2 (3 if you count his first month with the Knicks) different teams because he stunk in practice? Rumors have it that D’antoni didn’t even speak his name until he put him in that first game that he went off.
I absolutely think coaches have preconceived notions of who is the best player or who should start. In fact, Nate has shown some of these same tendencies before, with Blake and Miller, for instance. I’m sure Blake played his but off in practice. Heck, he probably even outplayed Miller in those practices. But does anyone think that shouldn’t have been Miller’s job to start with a couple of years ago? Miller could simply read the floor and react better than Blake, which I don’t think comes out when you’re running set plays in practice.
I guess I’m just saying that if practice time is the only thing that determines who plays, well that smells of a close-minded coach then. There are things that simply can’t come out until game situations, and sometimes players just have a knack for shining in those big moments. It appears at first blush that Elliot might have the knack—to play on instinct. I don’t think Nate is very good at coaching on instinct and letting the feel of the game dictate his moves. He’s too methodical. Which is why we haven’t seen much of Williams yet.
But Nate needs to use the force or something to help him figure out that he has a player on his hands, and the more time he can give him now the better.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
by bfan on Feb 22, 2012 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I like your point about Lin
That’s the exception not the rule though, is it not? A couch wouldn’t last long if he started replacing slumping players with 3rd stringers because they could dunk well. How would he explain that? It’s just not good coaching. If you’re playing odds like that, you’re bound to lose.
Sure.
The point is that there are exceptions. Now that Elliot has dropped 15 in a quarter, it’ll be interesting if he gives him more leash like D’antoni did with Lin (though not that much leash—I don’t think anyone is clamoring for Williams to start).
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
9 out of Elliot's 50 shots have been dunk attempts
He’s missed two (both misthrown alley-oops), which means that 7 of his 27 makes have been dunks. How do you account for the other 20?
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
Because it contradicts your idea that dunking is his only skill
Which is an asinine opinion.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
I don't care what you choose to think
I have a problem with you having nothing to back up you baseless claims of him underperforming in areas you can’t seem to define.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
To be fair ...
That’s about 25%. I don’t even know how to track such stats for other players, but I’m guessing that’s light years ahead of most other players in terms of dunks as a percentage of made shots. So yeah, it probably is skewing his percentage upward.
But it shouldn’t really matter how he get’s that high percentage. He’s doing what he has to to put the ball in the bucket at an alarming rate for a rookie shooting guard. Let’s give the guy some credit.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
Exactly
Just under 20% of attempts as dunks is high and that would certainly come down in extended minutes outside of garbage time. There are other indicators that he can continue to be an efficient scorer despite this, though.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
Here's my argument:
I agree that he gets lost on D. Also, I’m not sure how well he can protect the ball.
But you have to think about giving him some minutes when you consider:
- the existing guard play
- the fact that that you can’t develop a player if he doesn’t play. Keep in mind that he isn’t even PRACTICING, because they aren’t having practice much with the shortened schedule (you could never say that about Bayless)
He missed his entire rookie year, had a two week pre-season/ training camp, and now the coaching staff sees him about as much as we do. Could he really be that much worse than what Felton is giving us?
Holding out for Devyn
by T$ 225 on Feb 22, 2012 11:59 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
Elliot does a lot of practice on his own time
just because there aren’t team practices doesn’t mean he isn’t practicing. He posts on twitter quite frequently, including once today, that he is so use to waking up at 7:30 for practice. Imo that shows. He was supposed to be an athletic leaper. He has shown some pretty good shooting touch and a decent handle as well. He has said a lot this year he is working mostly on shooting and his right hand, probably the best two things to focus on currently.
He works to improve his game, sure.
But that doesn’t help with rotations, sets, or even man to man defense. He’ll have a hard time getting playing time if Nate is not confident in his basics.
by Batumshakalaka on Feb 22, 2012 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
Nate won't be confident in Elliot's basics until 1/2 the roster is out with injuries.
Which..given the playing time Nate prefers and the condensed season…may come to pass.
Or..until Williams is a PROVEN VETERAN.
by Natsthecat on Feb 22, 2012 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Nate was interviewed on the radio last night immediately after the game.
He said Elliot has earned some minutes. He made it sound like EW will get at least a few minutes most games at this point.
by JeffePortland on Feb 22, 2012 4:52 PM PST up reply actions
So when he said...
“Could it be that much worse than what Felton is giving us” he wasn’t implying that he should replace Felton? Right…I’m pretty sure that is what he said.
First of all, even just cutting a few of Felton's minutes
does not amount to fully replacing Felton. Second, your line of reasoning completely ignores positional flexibility. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
by HailOden! on Feb 23, 2012 10:21 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I think he's earned 7-10 minutes a game on a regular basis
Some of that undoubtedly comes at Felton’s expense, but not necessarily all
Holding out for Devyn
Even though I don't think E-Will should be a 'starter'...
I sure would love to see Nate let him start one game against a weaker team on a difficult road-trip when Wes and Crawford could use a break. Give him a 30 minutes game…just to see what he can do. You never know.
by jons_guitar on Feb 22, 2012 1:21 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Also...I think that rookies in Nate's system...who are playing..just to get playing time..
and not because NATE HAS NO CHOICE DUE TO PLAYER INJURIES…are playing with a huge amt of pressure to not make any mistakes. They know that once they make a mistake…they are out.
Which IMO is a HORRIBLE way to deal with rookies.
by Natsthecat on Feb 22, 2012 3:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like Nate, and I've never been on board with calling for his replacement, but
That is my biggest gripe with his minute allocation with respect to veterans vs. rookies. He’ll give guys like Felton (and Matthews, Blake, Outlaw, Juwan Howard, etc.) enough rope to hang the entire team, yet if a rook makes one stupid turnover, you literally might never see them again.
I honestly think it needs to be taken into serious consideration when it comes to criticizing our draft picks. I mean, who knows what Babbitt might actually play like if he was in San Antonio, or some other team where rookies see more actual game time. We always hear stories about how some of these guys kill it in practice, and then look terrible when they get their 2:30 seconds of garbage time.
by superfly05 on Feb 22, 2012 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
^THIS
LaMarcus All-Stardridge - 2012 All-Star Reserve!!!!
THE LAMONSTER ERA IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And vice versa.
Guys who don’t practice well but come alive in game situations.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
I'd like to see more before I pass judgement on the guy.
So far he’s obviously very quick, very athletic and can leap over anybody. He seems to have decent handles and he could become exactly what we need off the bench in the future as a 6th man, a supremely athletic guard that can take it to the rack and hopefully kick the ball out for open 3s from Batum and whoever else if the lane gets clogged.
Basically I wanna see him pass and become more of a facilitator, if he can demonstrate that and keep his shooting percentages decent, I am all for making Elliot a permanent part of the rotation. For now, I want to see a trial run where he gets roughly 15 mpg and lets see what he can do with it.
The smarter you are, the more likely you are to be tripping balls at any given moment.
/keep Batum and Aldridge/ /BLOW IT UP/
It's probably just semantics
But I don’t see him as being a facilitator any time in the near future. When I think of a facilitator, it’s someone that sets up the offense and works to get someone a good look. I see Williams as more of a play maker. He’s looking for his shot first, but can read the defense well enough make the right pass when the defense clogs the lane.
Like I said, semantics. Basically what you said, but just to clarify.
by Batumshakalaka on Feb 22, 2012 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed, perhaps playmaker is a better word than facilitator
To describe what Elliot is capable of.
The smarter you are, the more likely you are to be tripping balls at any given moment.
/keep Batum and Aldridge/ /BLOW IT UP/
I like him
I am not ready to christen him a starter or anything. But he has athleticism, a decent shooting touch (minus the free throws), and I think his defense is decent. He probably has the most untapped potential of any player on our team now.
Sometimes I wish we’d blow up the team to clear playing time so we could see what we have.
By blow up the team...I think only if that includes Nate.
by Natsthecat on Feb 22, 2012 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Hee Hee! Yep, blow up Nate!
LaMarcus All-Stardridge - 2012 All-Star Reserve!!!!
THE LAMONSTER ERA IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So your saying that nothing Elliot does counts because it was against third string players.
I have a news flash for you. Elliot Williams is our fourth shooting guard on the depth chart.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Feb 22, 2012 3:05 PM PST reply actions
haha
That was a good news flash. Now that Crawford is starting in place of Felton, I guess I saw him as the 3rd. Batum was the 2nd string 3 prior to moving to the 2 – so all things considered, I’d say he’s consistently been the 3rd string. However, I would also say that’s splitting hairs. The main point was that if he’s a 3rd stringer and can’t shoot well against or defend the other team’s 3rd stringers – why in the world would we have him play against 2nd stringers….wouldn’t you have to prove you’re better than the 3rd stringers first? It’s just a logical deduction.
He has more skills than I thought he would
All I ever heard about where his hops. 48" I believe. But his handle and outside shot, especially, has been impressive to me.
by T.O. on Feb 22, 2012 3:35 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Focusing on his ft% and 3pt% while not pointing out that
he has 4 (FOUR!) turnovers in 19 games doesn’t seem fair. We’re talking about a rookie shooting guard, who missed a year of basketball, missed out on summer league, had a limited training camp and who probably isn’t getting the team practice time he needs. Despite all of that he still only has 4 turnovers. Of course he’s not ready to start yet but he probably does deserve more time on the court. The Blazers might need to trade somebody so that he can get that time. Honestly, the Blazers need a feel good story and he just might be it.
by jayjaylbh on Feb 22, 2012 4:31 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
if felton or any of our other guards are playing terribly why not give the kid a shot.
from what I have actually watched (not interpreted from his very limited statistics), he looks aggressive which none of our other rookies are. he is athletic and makes plays. he has more potential than any other rookies we have and i would just like to see what he can do with 18-20 minutes per game. with the way felton plays sometimes it could not possibly hurt.
by deliverence31 on Feb 22, 2012 5:22 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I was going to mention his aggressiveness as well.
It seems to me (unlike most of our other rookies who think too much) that he doesn’t think much at all (in a good way). He just gets out there and plays—pins his ears back and just plays. He seems to have a gene that Babbit never will. That may be what I like most about him.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
by bfan on Feb 22, 2012 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
REALLY? REALLY? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????
Look, he is a ROOKIE for crying out loud!!!!! Of course he is not a starting quality shooting guard YET!!!!!
Get a grip! How many ROOKIES start out as a STARTER??? Almost nobody that’s how many.
GEEZ, I hate it when people have insane expectations of ROOKIES!
AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LaMarcus All-Stardridge - 2012 All-Star Reserve!!!!
THE LAMONSTER ERA IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you're replying to the article, you're missing the point...pretty emphatically might I add
The point of the article is to bring it back to center and to a realistic perspective. I’m opposing the people who are calling for him to start…you can’t think that I think he should be at that point yet or that I expect him to be. I’m just saying that him starting is ridiculous and isn’t a path for him to become starting quality.
Inventing an issue, here
There is no consensus clamor for Williams to start.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Feb 22, 2012 11:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't mean to sound rude or overbearing
But this comment makes the post sound more rational than it really is. In the OP, you never called out those who clamor for Elliot to start (and they don’t really seem to exist in significant numbers, but I’ll ignore that for now). You did, however, say this:
A lot of my friends and a lot of posts and comments on here are calling for an increase in Elliott Williams’ playing time. This whole “Free Elliott Williams” thing has got to stop.
Your point sure as hell sounds like it’s aimed not only at people who think he should start, but also at anyone who thinks he deserves any more minutes at all (which, btw, seems to include Nate McMillan, if recent comments are to be believed).
Has anyone seen him shut down a starting caliber or even 2nd string caliber 2 guard yet? I don’t see any defense or any aggressiveness anywhere other than his drives through the lane. Defense is imperative for a 2 guard. You have a 2 on the floor for scoring and shut down defense. The best 2 guards in the league do both. The good ones do one of them well and are serviceable at the other…The “bottom of the benchers” are usually the ones that can’t play efficient defense but are a weapon in some capacity on offense.
Basically, if I understand correctly, you’re saying that, in addition to having the 3rd highest TS% on this team (2nd if you exclude Armon Johnson), he needs to play at least average defense in order to earn more minutes. Despite the fact that our best back court player right now is really a SF, and our second stringer, whose defense you praise effusively, is putting up average shooting percentages, has the third worst defensive rating on the team, and provides little to nothing in every other offensive and defensive category. Those are pretty ridiculous expectations in order to give a guy 5 extra minutes on the court.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
by HailOden! on Feb 23, 2012 12:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Read the comment above mine
He was saying that I’m crazy for expecting Williams to be a “starter” (it’s the part in all caps). I was responding to his comment. I was reinterpreting my post for him so that he could understand where I was coming from. Also, you’re right that my post is directed at the people who think he should be getting more minutes. Unlike the gentleman above, you seem to have interpreted my post just fine – we may not agree – but you at least understand what I was saying, however you did misinterpret my reply to Lemarvelous’ comment.
I read LaMarvy's comment
and he’s got something of a point. If you’re trying to address those of us who believe Elliot should get a larger role, if nothing else so we can get a longer look at him, assessing Elliot relative to some realistic expectations of a rookie playing limited minutes would be fair.
Instead, you’ve more or less stated that he does not deserve a bigger role because two guys who have started with us (Nic and Wes) are better, while ignoring that 2 of our rotation guards (Jamal and Ray) have both a) started and b) not played as well as Elliot has. Alleging that he does not deserve a bigger role because he’s not as good the other guys on the roster (which at this point may or may not be the case, as poorly as Ray, Jamal, and to a lesser extent Wesley have played) in essence is holding him to the same standard as the guys who have started for us.
I did not misunderstand you; you’re just being really inconsistent.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
by HailOden! on Feb 23, 2012 10:30 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Your paragraph didn't pin point any inconsistencies. What did I say that was inconsistent?
Also, the reason I was comparing him only to Batum and Matthews is because I haven’t seen or heard anything about him playing the 1. Why would he take minutes from players at a different position? They may be guards – but he’s not in play for PG minutes.
The meat of the comment you allege that I misinterpreted reads:
The point of the article is to bring it back to center and to a realistic perspective. I’m opposing the people who are calling for him to start…I’m just saying that him starting is ridiculous and isn’t a path for him to become starting quality.
I don’t really see how I misinterpreted that, at all. The words mean exactly what they say. But then you say:
Also, you’re right that my post is directed at the people who think he should be getting more minutes.
That is a perfect example of inconsistency, which I believe I already pointed out.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
by HailOden! on Feb 23, 2012 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't even know how to respond to this analysis?
They guy has played something like 300 minutes in the NBA … all we know is that he’s long limbed, he’s got great athleticism, he shoots the ball without pounding the air out of the ball, and he looks like a “live” defender … and he’s produced efficiently in the time he’s been given
The best way for him to get better is live game situations and some kind of development plan. What am I missing?
by nikolokolus on Feb 22, 2012 6:50 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Good call
That’s the best point I’ve seen in favor of more playing time. Blazer’s players PER:
1. LA 23.9
2. Armon Johnson (?) 20.8
3. Elliott Williams 20.4
4. Batum 19.7
5. Crawford 16.9
I know PER isn’t everything – but that’s a stat that at least makes him competitive with Batum. Matthew’s PER is pretty low – but does PER include defense?
Williams is a different type of defender than Mathews
But defense is probably Mathews’ most overrated skill. In fact, Williams currently has a higher Drtng than Mathews.
What it means that arbitrary claims that Mathews is a better defender as a meaningless as arbitrary opinions on Williams ceiling.
The one thing we absolutely know for sure is that Williams needs to be tested to truly understand his offensive and defensive capabilities – because his potential based solely on his athletic ability, high BBIQ, much better dribbling skills and shooting ability currently project Williams as far superior to Mathews in every aspect of the game that matters.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Feb 23, 2012 12:02 AM PST up reply actions
Players on pace to play 500 or more minutes
*To qualify: a player must have played 6.09 MPG.
by Willie Beamon on Feb 25, 2012 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
"What am I missing?" - A Rec!! So I gave you one!! :-)
LaMarcus All-Stardridge - 2012 All-Star Reserve!!!!
THE LAMONSTER ERA IS NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
EWill has shown enough in the minutes he’s gotten to deserve a longer look, particularly since the Blazers guard play this year has been so dismal. I’m a long way from sold on him, but he’s earned a real shot in my view.
by jksnake99 on Feb 22, 2012 9:12 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
This is just as ridiculous as people posting that he's a lock to be a star
Calling his defense lacking is utterly ridiculous – he’s been better on that side of the ball than on offense. People who buy into the unearned hype about Wes Matthews being some type of great defender need to explain to me how and why this makes sense.
| 23.1 | .647 | .605 | 15.6 | 28.3 | 21.9 | 6.7 | 0.9 | 7.7 | 17.8 | 20.7 | 118 | 100 | 1.3 | 1.0 | 2.2 | .214 |
How about because I said so!
Really though I haven’t been impressed with Wes’ defense in a while, he seems to need his offense to get going before he stamps down on D. Since his shot is streaky so becomes his defense but he is still better than above average. Our best one-on-one defender is actually Batum, at least he gets the hardest assignments.
I agree with most of this
But about this
Our best one-on-one defender is actually Batum, at least he gets the hardest assignments.
the caveat is unnecessary. There is no doubt at all that Batum is our best one-on-one defender.
by Benny A La Vikings on Feb 23, 2012 8:18 AM PST up reply actions
This is a guy the FO was so high on
that they drafted him even though they knew he’d lose a season because of two knee operations. And now his knees are fine. So you play him. OK, OK, he was drafted by a long gone GM, but I don’t want to turn this into a front office in disarray thread.
This is an exciting post, thanks.
I like what I’ve seen from Elliot, he’s showing me what Chad Buchanon always raves about regarding him. He’s athletic, quick, determined, under control, and is always moving. He meets the eye test for me. I would like to see him get time with the first unit, even start. From what I’ve seen so far he has that ‘it’ to be a core piece to a championship team. I would like to see him on the court with Nic, Gerald, and LA. That would be a long and athletic group that can play both offense and defense.
Age Old Dynamic
I agree with a lot of what the OP posts as far as his observations of Elliot Williams. However, I’d say proponents of Elliot Williams are always going to believe that his deficiencies won’t be addressed or fully recognized without more playing time.
I have to fall back on the belief that I think from what I’ve seen Elliot Williams clearly deserves more opportunity. Once that is given? Whether he continues to demonstrate he deserves more, and/or increases his value as an N.B.A. player? Remains to be seen. But I believe the chance to see it, must be given.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
William's is a poor man's Wade
He has a lot of what a young Wade. Its damn close to rebuilding time so it would make good sense to trade some of the guards in front of him and give him at least a year and a half of 20 minns or more to see what you have.
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