Trade Drawer (Hypothetical Rebuild)
by AK1984 on Jan 19, 2012 11:27 AM PST
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PrintThis is a crazy, highly implausible hypothetical that neither team would likely ever sign off on. Yet, I'm proposing it nonetheless, because it begs an even bigger question.
FROM NEW JERSEY & TO PORTLAND
Memo Okur
Brook Lopez
2012 First-Round Draft Pick
2014 First-Round Draft Pick
2016 First-Round Draft Pick
2018 First-Round Draft Pick
Future Conditional Draft Pick Via Houston (Lotto-Protected First-Rounder From 2012 Thru 2016 Or 2017 Second-Rounder If Not Conveyed By Then)
FROM PORTLAND & TO NEW JERSEY
LaMarcus Aldridge
Let's say the trade deadline hits and Orlando still won't part with Dwight Howard. Because of that, the New Jersey Nets desperately want to create a buzz and, more importantly, convince Deron Williams to sign an extension with the Brooklyn bound franchise.
At the same time, Portland is hovering around a .500 record come mid-March and is obviously a non-contender; plus, a house cleaning is needed -- especially in the eyes of Paul Allen, who's the only one that matters -- come the off-season.
If so, would you do this deal? I definitely would, since a rebuild is arguably in order. And, well, there'd be no better way to start than by stockpiling picks.
Anyway, trade proposal aside, who here believes that the Trail Blazers as currently constructed can compete for a championship? Who believes Portland even has a core in place that can do so in the future? Who believes that treading water is a satisfactory course of action for the next 5 years? For me, the answers are no, no, no.
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With our recent drafting record, odds are one or two of those picks will turn out to be a rotation player
Memo’s just an EC. I hate the way the Lopez brothers play. Aldridge is worth more than that (a couple role players [eventually], an EC, and a marginally above average jump-shooter), imo.
Personally, I really don’t want to watch crappy basketball for 5 years. I know you think the Blazers play crappy basketball right now, but it’s better than watching the Wizards or Kings or pre-Rubio T’wolves night in and night out.
However, if a team like, say, the Pistons was willing to give up Brandon Knight, Greg Monroe, and two firsts (plus salary filler) for LA, I’d do it. And I guess that was your main question. If you have no shot at being a real contender, yeah, it’d make sense to trade LMA. But only for a veritable rebuild-in-a-box like the Deron Williams and Carmelo Anthony trades.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Utah did an incredible job of rebuilding without sucking
continually grabbing unprotected first rounders and talented young players who were struggling in their current situations, and now they have a future starting lineup of Favors, Kanter, Hayward and Burks with at least one more lottery pick coming up for 2011 (two if they miss the playoffs). too bad this draft sucks for point guards, but they can find a young PG easily by trading a piece out of their current starting lineup with millsap and jefferson.
This is what I'd like to see, if we have to rebuild
But I don’t know if our management can pull it off.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
I like Tony Wroten A LOT.
Batum Shakalaka
by WesMoneyy on Jan 19, 2012 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I hate Tony Wroten's game. I hate it with a passion.
The sooner he leaves the UW, the better. I want him out of Montlake; he’s poison.
"I Am Mine"
Greg Monroe is already worth more than LaMarcus Aldridge by himself.
That’s due to age, salary, and even production, so Detroit would never do that.
"I Am Mine"
I disagree, but you and I value different things in NBA players
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Fair enough.
But the reason youth is valued is because there’s the possibility that a player will get better. As it stands, I don’t think Monroe’s ceiling is really much higher than LMA’s floor.
The salary difference is a legit consideration, though.
To clarify, Detroit was just the first team that popped into my head. My point is that it would be foolish to trade LMA for anything less than a several good playing assets. Your proposed trade does not provide that.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
No thanks.
We have a better shot of building around Aldridge, rather then whoever we may be able to draft. Unless it lands you Andre Drummond. Oh and our current fortunes of first round exits, will likely become New Jersey’s after this year, making all those picks the same as ours are already going to be.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
Drummond and Davis are sure fire building blocks in this draft
Possibly Sullinger as well, though he’s guaranteed to at least be a #2 on a really good team.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Anthony Davis
is rightly compared to Marcus Camby. He doesn’t have much of an offensive game besides dunks & a shaky jumper. Though dominant defensively, he doesn’t have the frame to bang against a Bynum or Howard. Just like Camby is/was a great NBA player, AD isn’t a sure fire franchise cornerstone building block. Though Drummond is, his potential is unreal. Particularly with his speed at his size & passing ability.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
Davis is 18 years old and is already Camby without the NBA veteran savvy
And he has a crazy motor. Put in the right situation, he’ll easily be the NBA’s best big man in 5 years.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
What do you mean "he already is Camby"
Of course he doesn’t have the veteran savvy, neither did Camby. They are quite identical in their college games. Both are power forwards, with slighter then preffered frames. Freakish athletic ability, but he will never be better then or will have the size to defend Dwight Howard, or Andre Drummond if he develops the way that most people suspect. He will be great, but coming out of the draft so was Marcus Camby. Hence the reason he was selected #2 overall.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
I mean that Anthony Davis at 18 is comparable to Marcus Camby at age 21
There is absolutely no way a guy with Davis’ motor does not get better in the next 3 years. And Davis is a much better shooter, to boot.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
His motor is on display with dunks & blocks
just like Camby’s was. He hasn’t shown me he will be anything more then Marcus, who in his own right was a great player. Though not a franchise’s #1 building block like a Howard or Drummond.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
He's putting up Camby-esque numbers and has a lot more time to develop
His absolute floor is Camby. He can only get better. I don’t know how else to explain this.
As far as being a building block, it depends on what you’re looking for. Howard, LeBron, and maybe Chris Paul are the only guys you can really build around without a second superstar, or several other stars. Drummond may become one of those, as might John Wall.
However, Davis is like a Dirk Nowitzki/Pau Gasol/Rasheed Wallace type, definite building blocks, but you need the right personnel to go with them.
You originally said that you’d rather build around Aldridge than anyone in this draft. I added Davis, who you then tried to discredit by comparing to Dwight Howard, which would be fair if we were talking about trading Dwight Howard for Anthony Davis.
But we’re not.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Correction on second to last paragraph:
You originally said that you’d rather build around Aldridge than anyone in this draft besides Drummond.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Exactly. Davis isn't a #1 any more then Aldridge is.
We already have a very good #2, in Aldridge. I don’t see Davis ever having the offensive game Aldridge has, nor will Aldridge be able to present a dominant defensive game(against 4’s mind you, because neither will be able to consistently bang against elite 5’s- Which is why I love Drummond if we must trade Aldridge).
So the question remains, build around Aldridge or Davis. I choose Aldridge because I think Davis has a questionable offensive ceiling judging by what I’ve seen. To each his own.
Lumping Nowitzki in with Wallace, Gasol or Davis is unfair. You wouldn’t be able to assemble a cast of role players around Davis like Dallas did with Dirk & win a championship. Aldridge is far closer to a #1 NBA option then Davis ever will be, in my opinion.
Lets not discount the fact that we have Gerald Wallace. Now if you could pair him + Aldridge, alongside a dominant versatile player like Andre Iggy, I think we would have a chance at a title run if we had just a solid starting center next to Aldridge(and of course, the right role players).
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
I hate to recycle the 2004 pistons metaphor
but 5 players around the aldridge/wallace level is pretty much the 2004 pistons. except they also had a better coach.
Except that Aldridge is Waaaay better than anybody on that Pistons team
no comparison
La Illaha Illallah Muhamadur Rasulallah
The thing is,
There is a reason the 2004 pistons were called a team. Because they played like one. Hamilton, Billups & Wallace could all have looked like all stars(or “as good as Aldridge”) if they were #1 options at that point in their careers. They sacrificed for the greater good & won the big one.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
Hamilton has never been in the same tier as Aldridge
He was a slightly more efficient Jamal Crawford, or a bigger, younger Jason Terry, or a bigger Monta Ellis. That’s Hamilton’s tier, and that’s being nice.
That team was built around Ben Wallace’s defense and Billups’ play making ability. Sheed was the extra injection of talent they needed to get them over the top, like Tyson Chandler was for Jason Kidd and Dirk Nowitzki.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
I can't argue there
I wasn’t saying he was in the same tier, just that he was a level 2 talent player, who had several level 2 talent players next to him.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
I got that part, I'm saying he wasn't even level 2
Billups and Ben Wallace get seriously underrated when people talk about that team. So do Memo and Sheed, but not nearly as much.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
I think you misunderstood my point
And I think I’m setting a lower bar for “building block” than you are. I never claimed that Davis would be a #1 option. I am saying he’s a piece that you could build a really competitive team around. Dallas did it with a dynamic, dominant scorer. Who’s to say it couldn’t be done with a dynamic, dominant defender/rebounder who won’t kill you on offense?
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Ehh. Camby?
:) See, the NY Knicks of 98-99’’, who also had Ewing and our very own Kurt Thomas. But go ahead, poor blame Charlie Ward Unfortunately, he probably rightly deserved it :(
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
I agree. Lamarcus isn't shining enough as a first option.
He’s just too comfortable from outside and seemingly too concerned with getting along with his teammates. A champion, 1st option 4 doesn’t settle for a lackluster performance from his PGs and doesn’t himself settle for jumpers against competition that fouls him on over half of his drives. He should want to get to the foul line and be unhappy when he doesn’t. Were he a second option on a team with an already functional post presence it would be different, but at that point he would likely be settling for a back seat to whoever the first option was and simply not worth the $. We’ve seen it before.
For my mind to change, I need to see some domination from Lamarcus, and better evidence that he is kicking Felton’s butt. He’s the leader. This team needs to focus on getting Lamarcus the rock and working off of him. He’s not the best passer but he is far more adept at kicking from the double than any Blazer is at creating their own shot.
Of course, your trade likely only has one ‘good’ pick in it: this year’s. LMA/Williams would be a great duo in the east, and those following picks would certainly be later 1st rounders, which aren’t worth much.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jan 19, 2012 12:44 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
this isn't exactly blowing up the team but it would be a huge move
I’m not sure this trade is worth it but get a good PG prospect in bledsoe and a reliable center in okafor…wallace is a lot to give up though. Clippers get a potential SGOTF
by mynamehere1212 on Jan 19, 2012 12:49 PM PST reply actions
I think it's a lose for both teams
New Jersey mortgages it’s whole future and has to bank on Deron Williams and LMA to win the East? That’s not happening.
Meanwhile, the Blazers suck for a few years at a time when the Western Conference is fairly open? I’d argue right now is the time you gamble a bit and go for the glory while you have aging teams fading away (Lakers, Dallas, San Antonio).
Getting a bunch of draft picks
Seems like a really bad idea when we don’t even have a GM. This is how we end up with Luke Babbitt.
a GM got us Luke Babbitt
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Jan 19, 2012 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
It only works if you change the coach as well.
Nate won’t let any of the picks play enough to develop.
"Per John Hollingers twitter - Over the final 12:45 of today's game, Brandon Roy's PER was 84.98" GM 4 vs Mavs
except the ones that are good enough who eventually turn into something worthwhile
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
Yep, don't know how, but I forgot about Brandon.
"Per John Hollingers twitter - Over the final 12:45 of today's game, Brandon Roy's PER was 84.98" GM 4 vs Mavs
And LaMarcus. At work right now,
"Per John Hollingers twitter - Over the final 12:45 of today's game, Brandon Roy's PER was 84.98" GM 4 vs Mavs
and Nic (although he could stand some more playing time at this point)
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
and Greg (when not injured)
that’s a whole potential championship core right there, so I would say that Nate does play and let good picks develop. Dante found the rotation from the second round and became a trade asset.
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
Lamarcus... im sorry
But i think you are a TERRIFIC number 2 option. But an average number 1. A championship team has to have a more clutch player/players. Especially as the number 1.
"Tommy: Did you hear I finally graduated?
Richard Hayden: Yeah, and just a shade under a decade too. All right. "
Unless you land Drummond
Who are you going to pick to be your #1?
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
If we have to rebuild through the draft. Here are some prospects I like (Asides from your obvious elite lottery picks)
Point Guard:
Kendall Marshall, North Carolina- Best pure point guard I’ve seen at the college level in a while. If you put him on the Heat or Knicks he would probably be close to a league leader in assists. He just needs to learn to attack the basket a little more aggressively & work on his shot.
Aaron Craft, Ohio State- If you love defense, this is your guy. He seems to be the closest thing I have seen to John Stockton on that end of the floor. Don’t believe me? Watch him play. Its great, like a Gerald Wallace type hustle & enthusiasm.
Shooting Guard:
Terrence Ross, Washington- I love his game. One of the few players I’d trade up for. Though its a lofty comparison, at times he reminds me of Ray Allen honestly.
Jared Cunningham, Oregon State- He is going to be an elite NBA defender & can finish at the rim, perfect role player. Best comparison for him is Tony Allen.
Small Forward:
Terrence Jones, Kentucky- As versatile as they come. His defensive intensity this year has really sold me on him. I really wish he would have went to a school(As an Oregon fan, I wanted both Terrence’s in Eugene..) that would have made him a #1 option, because his numbers at Kentucky do not do him justice & I fully expect his NBA career to overshadow his time in the NCAA.
Mike Moser, UNLV- dominant rebounder. Very versatile as well, has the tools to defend NBA small forwards & has flashes of being able to be elite on that end. Undersized at the 4 spot, but hungry. This years Kenneth Faried? Perhaps.
Power Forward:
Cody Zeller, Indiana- Doesn’t quite have the NBA body yet, so I expect him to stay another year… Just watch this guy play. I don’t want to say it, but like all good NCAA tall white guys, he will remind you of a certain Boston Celtic from french lick. He sets himself apart from a Morrison/Babbit in that he actually plays good defense.
John Henson, North Carolina- I usually am not a fan of lanky shot blockers, but Henson has showed he is something special this season with his rapid improvement from his play as a freshman. If you saw the Air Craft carrier game at the beginning of the season, he looked like a modern day Bill Russell.
Center:
Festus Ezeli, Vanderbilt- Thick. Reliable. Has the tools & ability to stay with most NBA 5’s defensively. Someone will get a Kendrick Perkins type role player with him.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
Would not do that trade, and I think New Jersey would do that trade if given the option today.
I’d rather the Blazers keep Lamarcus and take a flier on OJ Mayo.
Since this is a trade drawer,
Who would you give up for Mayo? I wouldn’t give up Wesley or Batum. The gain in offense is not worth the loss in defense. I’d give Crawford in a heartbeat though :\
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
I'd trade Wesley straight up for OJ
Wesley is the better player today, but his ceiling isn’t much higher then what he is already and the Blazers need some star power. OJ has the potential to be a star in this league but is in a bad situation in Memphis. He could very well turn into a great player if given the chance on another team. He’s also not a terrible defender from what I’ve heard.
I don’t mind trading Wesley mainly because I don’t see the team being anything other then mediocre as long as he’s on it. You need to give to get – Wesley is a great piece, but not one we need.
Where do people get the idea
in their head that they know the ceiling of a player. Wes$ has been in the league for 2 years and a few games, but he’s never going to be more then he already is? Thats ridiculous.
Because he's demonstrated that he doesn't have the talent to do anything more then what he already does?
Like I’ve said below, I think Wesley is a great role player. He worked hard to get to where he is currently in the NBA. He plays great D and is good deep ball shooter and an all around smart player. He was lucky he was on the Utah Jazz and had a great coach who recognized what he was good at and helped him establish himself as one of the most solid role players in the league doing the things HE’S good at. Thinking he’s going to magically turn into something that he’s not isn’t ridiculous
People also forget that he's really old for a third year player.
He may get a little more savvy with his finishing technique, but that’s about it.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Hog wash, if I may say.
Your “star power” argument is based simply on OJ’s draft placement. I would welcome you to prove me otherwise. There is a reason Wesley Matthews commanded minutes as a rookie from one of the greatest coaches in NBA history. He has a role defined & he was payed for it. Thankfully our GM by committee will never pull the trigger on a deal like this, because it makes us much worse as a team. OJ Mayo had his chance to prove his has “star talent” in Memphis, if you didn’t notice(They traded Kevin Love for him). There is a reason Indiana was trying to bring him in simply as a 3pt shooter. Not a franchise changing talent. Dude was over rated coming out of the draft & it seems you are continuing the trend.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
Ok, let me address a couple points
1) I understand that Wesley Matthews is a great role player. Just because I suggest we trade him doesn’t mean I hate him, don’t understand what he does as a player, or underrate what he does. I love We$. He shoots the 3 ball quite efficiently, plays great defence, and he’s not a terrible finisher around the rim. He’s not gonna hurt your chances to win at all, he’s a smart player. Basically, he does what he’s asked, and he does it well. The thing is, if you ever asked him to do something other then his defined role, say, become more of a ball-handler & a scorer, his numbers would PLUMMET. Anybody who denies this is delusional. The problem is, we NEED that scorer/ball handler who can create his own shot and shots for others if we ever want to be anything other then a mediocre team. This player is NOT going to magically fall from the sky into our laps.
2) I don’t think OJ Mayo has “star potential” based off of his draft placement. It’s more based off the fact that he scored an efficient 18.5 PPG as a rookie along with 3 assists per game in an all-around scorer/ball-handler role (much easier to play efficient when you’re in a more defined role such as We$). Dude can create his own shot. He had a rookie season comparable to a dude named Brandon Roy (here’s an OJ Mayo rookie mix – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gt-9TySgsLI).
By his 2nd season the Grizzlies brought in Zach “the black hole” Randolph to play alongside him and Rudy Gay. Marc Gasol and Mike Conley both saw their FGA/game go up. Both Randolph and Gay took more shots then OJ Mayo. No surprise, OJ Took less shots per game then he did in his rookie season. Mayo STILL averaged 17.5 PPG, his efficiency compared to his first season went UP, all the while he was notably unhappy with his role and his situation in Memphis, yet he still managed to build off of what he did in his rookie season with a diminshed role.
In his 3rd season, for no reason other then the Grizzlies didn’t NEED him with the starting lineup, he started coming off the bench. Minutes went way down. Efficiency dropped. He was even more unhappy, which explains the drop, but can you really blame the guy? He had a bomb rookie season, saw his role diminshed in his 2nd season for no good reason (to him) yet still did great, and then gets benched? He did nothing wrong other then get drafted by the Grizzlies. Regardless of how good he’s always played and the flashes of excellence he’s shown, the Grizzlies still decided to trade him for Josh McRoberts at the deadline last year (which of course didn’t go thru). Ever since he started coming off the bench, people have straight forgotten how good he was his rookie season and seemingly assumed he’s just “not as good as the hype” since the Grizzlies aren’t playing him. The only chance he ever had to “live up” to the hype was his rookie season, and he was on the right track, but the opportunity was taken away from him for no reason other then the Grizz wanted to give all his shots to Zach Randolph and more to Conley/Gasol. Good team move, maybe, but it certainly “stalled” OJ’s growth.
3) OJ isn’t a “chucker”, and he isn’t a bad defender. Since I’ve already written way too much, I’ll simply say – OJ at worst has always been an “average” defender and can play above-average defence if motivated. When it comes to his efficiency, he had a TS% of .539 his rookie year and .551 his sophomore year. Calling him a chucker and a bad defender is just a terrible assumption that people who have never watched him play make because he’s a young scoring guard who was hyped up and ended up in a 6th man role.
Also, to conclude
It’s not everyday you have a chance to trade role players for a guy who has shown he at least has the potential to be a star in this league. That’s what you have in OJ Mayo. If you think we’re ever going to get a player of OJ’s potential caliber (especially one who hasn’t done much to show that he CAN’T live up to the hype) for anything cheaper then a role playing shooting guard, you’re wrong, and if you think we’re going to be anything other then mediocre with the current roster, you’re also wrong.
Let me come back at you...
1) Yes, Wes is perfect for his role he is in. Yes, we do need a shot creator . Much more then we need another scorer. Please, do not ever mistake OJ Mayo for a shot creator. Its an insult to those who actually are. His career 2.7/2.1 assist/turnover ratio can tell you that, as will the eye test.
2) He did NOT score an efficient 18.5ppg, only shooting 43% on 15.6 attempts that year, hence why most people referred to him as a chucker. A youtube highlight can make anyone look good. The only reason he is considered able to get his own shot better then Wes$ is he has a semi-reliable fade away jumper, but no thanks- we had enough of that with Outlaw. Comparing him to Brandon Roy is like throwing sand in #7’s pace, he is superior in every aspect of the game. More efficient, better passer & a better rebounder. Its not that the Grizzlies didn’t need him, in fact he had aspirations to be a 6’4" point guard. He got all the playing time to prove it(38MPG in his first two seasons), but he didn’t earn it. So a player was brought in who plays far superior defense in Tony Allen- He had his chance to be a franchise changing talent. There is a reason they tried to trade him for scraps.
3) Yeah, he is. Far more concerned with “getting his” on offense, then playing defense. Like I said, there is a reason Tony Allen was brought to Memphis. Also, do not go there with “not watching him play”. The fact that you compared him to Roy makes me think you don’t!
I’ll keep Wes$, Thanks.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
OJ can create his own shot. That’s something the Blazers desperately need, and isn’t a skill that should be overlooked. No, I’m not saying he’s a great playmaker and he’s especially nowhere close to what B-Roy ever was, but I’m not gonna rule out that he could improve in that area just because he only averaged 3.2 assists his rookie year (Roy averaged 4.0) playing for the Grizzlies with only 1 year of college experience. By his Sophomore year, the Grizzlies decided they’d be better off banking on Mike Conley and Z-Bo with OJ playing off the ball. This worked out for them, and I don’t think it was as much of a knock on OJ as it was a better the better move for their team. This of course made OJ unhappy and I believe stunted his growth as a player in general, as a playmaker and otherwise. Obviously Tony Allen is a better defender then OJ, and with the Grizzlies prior decision to get the bulk of their scoring from the forward positions, it made sense to start him over OJ and bring OJ’s scoring ability off the bench. Again, I don’t think this was a knock on OJ as much as it was a good move for the team, but it made him unhappy, effected his play & stunted his growth as a player.
Basically what I’m saying is it’s no surprise that he came out of college without much of a playmaking ability, I agree that he’s always “looked for his” more then B-Roy ever did but some of that comes from his situation. I’m not gonna rule out him improving as a playmaker if given the chance on a roster that makes more sense for him to play as a “shot creator” and after a few humbling years of experience in Memphis. I’m certainly not gonna rule out trading a role player for him just because he hasn’t lived up to his potential in a bad situation in Memphis.
I don’t understand why people want to keep our low ceiling role players and do nothing but sustain mediocrity rather then take a couple of risks. Obviously OJ isn’t Brandon Roy right now but that’s why we’re having a discussion about trading Wesley Matthews for him. He may or may not turn into a player of B-Roys caliber, but I believe there’s still a chance and I think ruling that chance out and refusing to give up role players for him just because he’s had a couple of mediocre years in a bad situation in Memphis and wasn’t as good of a player coming out of college as the perennial all-star with 4-years college experience that Brandon Roy was is foolish.
I would consider trading Crawford for him
but I wouldn’t want him starting & replacing Matthews. The lack of defense makes us a worse team then we are now, even with his additional offense.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
To get more into the OJ vs Wesley arguement
While OJ may produce 20 ppg if given the opportunity to chuck a bunch a shots, Wesley produces 15 with good efficiency and plays solid defense. OJ has NEVER played good defense. Wesley had to work his way into this league BECAUSE of good defense.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
Also, to elaborate
I’m positive New Jersey would do this trade because it would land them Dwight Howard. Any trade such as this would turn into a 3 team deal that sends LMA to Orlando, Dwight to NJ and Brook + the draft pick army to Portland. There’s no question that the Magic would trade Dwight for LMA at this point.
I don't think they will get nothing
after watching Cleveland get shafted.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
We're talking about Otis Smith and the Amway dude
There’s a good chance they walk away with nothing and then send out angry emails about how they were betrayed. But hopefully not in comic sans.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
As I said above, my belief is "neither team would likely ever sign off on" it.
On New Jersey’s end, it’s a trade where the risk wouldn’t be worth the reward.
Anyway, the whole proposal is just food for thought. Nothing more, nothing less.
"I Am Mine"
The point I agree with is that the Blazers are
not going to be a meaningful contender as currently constructed, and you cannot rebuild this team with the talent we have through trades. It takes talent to get talent. Oden does not have the trade value to get us a solid starting center. Roy gets us virtually nothing other than CAP space. Camby is aging and will get us little in a trade other than if someone wants a salary dump. Felton was the only option to an aging Miller who in turn, was the only decent player available in the free agent market at the time. There was a reason that Camby, Felton, Wallace, Smith, Thomas and Crawford were not highly sought after players that any number of teams could of had if they’d wanted them – not just the Blazers.
The Blazers had the dream with Roy, Oden and Aldridge. Two of those lost most or all of their value, and you cannot get talent without giving up talent. And we don’t have the calib er of talent to trade to get the kind of talent we need. That’s reality.
AK’s postulate here is in the main, correct. The Blazers and the fans will have one of two options over the coming years. We can muddle along with a decent group of players which we cut and paste together to win some games, as we’ve been doing, or we can decide to rebuild. And to rebuild, we must get into the draft. It’s an illusion to think that we can do otherwise.
Heh. I'd do that trade in a hot second, no way NJ does that trade.
If we were seriously considering this, I’d look around for players who aren’t valued as highly by their teams as they should be and are also bad enough to still be in the lottery after they did the trade. So basically underrated potential superstar plus a potential lottery pick is what I’d look for.
One possibility is Cousins. Incredibly talented, cares a lot about competing, but doesn’t really know how to marshal his talents toward that goal. I don’t think Nate’s the right coach for him, but the right coach could absolutely mold him into a monster. Sacto is definitely enough of a mess so trading DMC for LMA would still leave them a very losing team.
I’m not totally sold on John Wall, but he’s certainly got an incredibly high ceiling coupled with relatively depressed value. He could absolutely blossom on a better coached, less idiot-stocked team. And the Wiz with LMA added would certainly still be a bad enough team to be in the high lottery for years. Wall plus an unprotected pick could be an absolute steal.
Personally, I’d look to heist Love, who Khan astonishingly still doesn’t value highly enough. Love plus an unprotected first rounder for LMA would be a nice haul. That team would be better than these other two listed, so the pick wouldn’t be worth as much, but it’d be a nice bonus.
One potential win/win trade would be a trade with OKC for Harden and Ibaka. OKC gets a all-star caliber post scorer, we get BRoy Jr and a gritty post defender.
by howlingfantods on Jan 20, 2012 11:14 AM PST reply actions
Why don't you think NJ does that trade?
I think they do that trade because that trade would simply turn into a 3-team trade that sends LMA to Orlando and Dwight Howard to NJ.
four firsts and brook lopez, for a player who's considered only a little better than Lopez?
Not a chance. And not a chance that Orlando would take Aldridge over Bynum.
by howlingfantods on Jan 20, 2012 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
While I believe LMA is considered to be (and is) MUCH better then "a little better then Lopez"..
I agree that they’d probably rather take Bynum then LMA. I’d have disagreed before the season began, but Bynum is playing great. Altho I wouldn’t COMPLETELY rule out them taking LMA.
I think LMA is somewhat better than Lopez, but that's not necessarily the majority view.
Pretty similar in a lot of ways, actually. Big men with good production offensively (roughly 20 points per 36 minutes) with decent but not great efficiency (roughly 55% true shooting), who don’t really rebound their position or protect the bucket that well. PER of around 18 for LMA’s first three years, around 19 for Brook’s. Brook’s a worse defender but it’s not like LMA’s cracking any first team all-defensive teams.
Before the last season, Brook was considered top 5 center. With his rebounding issues, he probably dropped in most people’s minds slightly out of the top 5, but he’s still top 10 in most lists (not statheads like mine, but most GMs/non-stat press). LMA is a top 5 PF in most lists (again not statheads like mine, but most GMs/non-stat press). True C’s have more value than PFs, so their value is pretty similar.
And to add four firsts, that’s the type of haul that you only give up for MVP type players. LMA is far from being worth that type of haul.
by howlingfantods on Jan 20, 2012 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
These are the reasons why I'd do this deal in a heartbeat if I'm the Blazers.
Also, if the Nets are bent over a barrel at the mid-March trade deadline, it might be desperate enough to make a big splash like this—especially if Dwight Howard is off the market and the Big Russian is afraid Deron Williams will bolt during the off-season for Dallas.
"I Am Mine"
Dallas seems like the big winners
let me guess, Dwill and Howard will both go to big D, and once Nowitzki retires, so will Aldridge.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
"LMA is far from being worth that type of haul."
One can only hope Nets GM Billy King — who’s got a poor track record — is dumb enough to think otherwise.
"I Am Mine"
Again, the parameters of this specify that Orlando is entirely out of the picture.
Or, for the sake of removing Orlando and the Los Angeles Lakers from the equation altogether, let’s say that theoretically those two teams work out a deal centered around Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum, which leaves the Nets high and dry and in position to do the above trade proposal.
"I Am Mine"
LMA for cousins is a downgrade, but cousins could be a great player
Wall reminds me more of a Marbury type of point guard, so not a chance. Love or Harden, maybe, but I wouldn’t like a trade like that in the division.
I think we’re better off trade our secondary players for options like those, grabbing cousins for batum or gerald would be a good options but it’d probably be easy to rip off the kings since their front office is failing miserably.
eh, I feel like it's too hard to say.
when the guys you can pass to are black hole chowderheads like Nick Young, Jevale, and Blatche, I don’t think any point guard can look good. Saint Steve Nash himself would look bad trying to run that team.
by howlingfantods on Jan 20, 2012 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
You know what
thats a damn good comparison… Though Francis wasn’t as athletically dominant.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
"Though Francis wasn’t as athletically dominant."
What? Francis was an athletic marvel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdUiINnMf9U
A total bonehead, sure. But an ultra-athletic bonehead.
"I Am Mine"
I didn't say he was far above him
I’d take Wall if they were both in their primes & had to choose which one would come out on top in say a combine measurement scenario.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
I like Rajon Rondo, but I think Boston decides to hold onto him for its upcoming rebuild.
If the Celtics do blow it up, one trade I’d like to see happen is Paul Pierce to Indiana for Paul George and a 2012 first-round draft pick.
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7ub6pbq
It gets the Celtics under the luxury tax this season and, moreover, puts it in a position to make a big splash in free agency this summer when Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen’s contracts are off the books.
"I Am Mine"
I'm not sure that rondo will want to stick through a boston rebuild
He was very much against the Perkins trade, and with a few of the other questionable moves that Danny Ainge has carried out, so he might not trust the front office to bring Boston through a rebuild. they definitely don’t have Kevin McHale to gift them another KG, though maybe Larry Bird will do it.
I'd love to see him get disgruntled & force his way out of town
Aldridge & Wallace is about as attractive as it gets for a point guard, in my opinion.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
"I'm not sure that rondo will want to stick through a boston rebuild"
Since he’s under contract for the next few years, he’d have no choice but to stick it out.
"I Am Mine"
He's exactly the type of person that would try to force himself out of town
if he felt bad about his situation. though boston could probably keep him disgruntled, I imagine they could get better value trading him out.
Yep.
If they could get someone like LaMarcus + Batum + Matthews to build around, they could essentially, replace their big 3. Or at least hope that Ainge is dumb enough to pull the trigger on that. Then we replace Batum with Mike Moser. Matthews with Terrence Ross & LaMarcus w/………………………. I don’t know
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
lamarcus batum and matthews wouldn't replace their big three
I think they’d probably try to pull players from multiple teams, or grab expiring contract like wallace and camby and bank on attracting free agents through their legendary status as the team with the most championships in NBA history.
I don't know if Indiana does it
Especially with how efficiently George is playing this year & on a rookie scale contract mind you. Though moving Pierce is an obvious move for the clearly in need of a rebuild Celtics.
If the Celtics are so desperate to be a player in free agency they can be real dirt bags & amnesty Pierce. Allowing him to go to his child-hood favorite Lakers w/Kobe or hometown Warriors(who would likely over pay).
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
While that may be true
aside from his 3pt shooting he has been horrendous this year.
The Celtics are suffering from the same lack of center play that we are.
"We gotta get this $#!^ together guys!" - Phil
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