Andre Miller vs. Raymond Felton: Who Is A Purer Point Guard?

Tom Ziller at SB Nation with a resurrection of a study of "pure point guard-ism" in the NBA. Put simply, he compares the number of assists produced by NBA point guards to the number of shots attempted.

As we all know, Andre Miller is a PURE point guard. He can't shoot all that well, particularly from distance, and he's a great setup man (and the best alley-ooper in the league). He's gotta be right up there with Rondo and Kidd in pure point guard rating..

oh, what's that you say? He's middle-of-the-road in pure point rating, 53/100? Oh my. Well.

What's that you also say? Reymond Felton is nearly identical in this pure point rating? Ohy my goodness, well won't the BEdgers be pleased!..maybe

PS: For the record, I am not insisting that Felton is better than, a better fit than, or even a similar type of player to Miller. This is simply data to mull over.

PPS: Cupcake consumption was not a part of this study.

ed: bumped to front page

10 months ago joelor 23 comments 1 recs |

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Some random thoughts.

Why would anyone be surprised Derrick Rose was not considered a pure point guard? I think Brandon Roy would rate higher than Rose does on this scale.

Miller’s rating is not surprising. He usually takes his fair share of shots. What is more interesting is that at a middling 53, Miller is the 6th purest PG in the NBA. It’s a dying breed.

So Jason Kidd became a purer PG when he was traded to a perennial playoff team with a ton of scoring options and Andre Miller became less pure when he joined the lowly 76’ers and the oft-injured Blazers? I’m guessing that the Mavs shot a significantly higher FG% than Philadelphia and Portland.

Luke Ridnour scored a 47 while playing for the T-Wolves? Shouldn’t there be some kind of a handicap given to him based on the “suck quotient” of his team? A 47 on the T’Wolves is like a 68 on the L*kers, isn’t it?

Andre Miller hates to lose. I have no doubt he could eat more cupcakes than Felton.

by Sean M on Jul 22, 2011 1:58 PM PDT reply actions

Miller’s rating is not surprising. He usually takes his fair share of shots. What is more interesting is that at a middling 53, Miller is the 6th purest PG in the NBA. It’s a dying breed.

It certainly seems like a dying breed, although there really isn’t much to support that without some analysis of former players and their pure point scores.

by joelor on Jul 22, 2011 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Also, in reference to pure point scores going up and down based on teams, from the couple-year-old piece that Ziller linked to in this article:

There’s no measureable relationship between a team’s rate of assists and a team’s offensive performance.

by joelor on Jul 22, 2011 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions

A team's rate of assists is not the same as the PG's rate of assists.

Plus an assist by definition only exists because of a made basket. However, a shot attempt counts regardless of a make or miss. The only way to actually measure how much a PG passes relative to shooting is to track assist attempts (which may or may not exist as a recognized stat – I have no idea). If Miller takes 10 shots in a game and also passes 20 times to shooters, his pure point score would depend on the shooter’s cumulative FG%. Why? He shot 10 times and passed to shooters 20 times. That tells me what kind of a point guard he is. Made FG’s are irrelevant.

There is a deeper argument. The FG% of the 20 shots could be affected by the quality of the assist attempt. You could argue the better the assist, the more likely a FG will be converted. However, a PG controls his shot attempts and only has limited contol over his assists. I find comparing those two stats to draw the conclusion Ziller did highly illogical.

by Sean M on Jul 22, 2011 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs

this is a great comment

He shot 10 times and passed to shooters 20 times. That tells me what kind of a point guard he is. Made FG’s are irrelevant.

rec’d

Barefoot conducts his seminars on his houseboat in Sausalito. It costs a hundred dollars to find out why we are on this Earth. You also get a sandwich, but I wasn't hungry that day. John Lennon had just been killed and I think I know why we are on this Earth; it's to find out that what you love the most will be taken away from you, probably due to an error in high places rather than by design.

by thankyouforblaze on Jul 22, 2011 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions

assist/FG ratio is probably affected by team shooting percentage quite a bit less than you think

sample size alone tends to normalize the data sufficient to establish legitimate trends. I would bet real money that team shooting percentage has zero effect on these rankings.

Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.

by blacknoiseNW on Jul 22, 2011 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions

Seeing Kidd's boost when he went to Dallas

Certainly had to have something to do with Dirk and his accuracy and versatility. Likewise Miller benefits from LMA.

by lee3022 on Jul 22, 2011 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions

This has more to do with the fact that Kidd can no longer effectively get his own shot at all. His assist percentage has stayed pretty constant throughout his career, it’s his shots that have gone down. Miller, meanwhile, has pretty much the same skill set.

i keep dancing on my own.

by atomiccafe on Jul 23, 2011 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions

Yup, Jason Kidd's usage rate dropped and his assist percentage stayed the same.

"I Am Mine"

by AK1984 on Jul 23, 2011 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions

Assists vs. Shots

I like the Assists vs. Shots stat that was used to generate these ratings, as I think it captures a lot. For reference, since Felton’s underlyng stats were not provided in the article, here are the career FGA ans assist stats for Miller and for Felton:

Miller: 11,293 FGA / 7,031 Assists or .62 assists for every field goal attempted.
Felton: 5,838 FGA / 3,198 Assists or .55 assists for every field goal attempted.

So, the difference is there, but not what one might think. And, if we look at comparable stats from last year:

Miller: 844 FGA / 566 assists = .67 assists per FGA (getting more unselfish later in his career)
Felton: 1,005 FGA / 625 assists = .62 assists per FGA (or Andre Miller’s career average).

Lucas, the Blazers' other star, vows, "We're staying hungry. All of us know what it's like to get blowed out. We want to keep doin' the blowin'."

by blazer91 on Jul 22, 2011 3:01 PM PDT reply actions

Pretty freakin' cool

I’m pretty happy where Felton sits (in 8th)

by thankyouforblaze on Jul 22, 2011 5:21 PM PDT reply actions

'Dre's the only one at 100 on the Purity Scale when you include PGs who took out Blake Griffin.

Sorry, Felton. ‘Dre takes the cake on that one (it’s a shame, too, ’cause we all know what a fan of cake you are*)

(*Obligatory: had to do it.)

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((())) llbdll
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ed: bumped to front page

by Oh. Em. Gee. on Jul 22, 2011 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, Felton is in a perfectly fine spot on the purity scale. The scale says more about style of play than quality of play though, and for most of his career Felton’s been very average there.

long live the jd.

by jksnake99 on Jul 23, 2011 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions

Above average defender though.

In terms of defensive value from individual statistics, Felton was second to Rondo at the point guard position. His combination of decent size and quickness makes him a defensive asset.-Kevin Pelton

by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 23, 2011 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions

I like having a point guard that can hit three's.

Never a huge fan of Andre(I think I’m the only one). I don’t think Felton can be great but he’ll be a good pg for the blazers.

by kengriffey on Jul 22, 2011 5:44 PM PDT reply actions

This is a very important point that is often ignored

We all saw at least the first playoff game against Dallas that Kidd single-handedly killed us with threes. Miller kept shooting them and most of us groaned whenever that happened. Felton is at least three times better from three and we can hope he is working on that over the summer.

by lee3022 on Jul 22, 2011 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions

I really really liked Andre

but I sort of have a feeling Felton will make the team more cohesive and fit in personality wise much better.

by XBlazerfan on Jul 22, 2011 7:26 PM PDT reply actions

The sweet spot on the scale for me is 65

And not only because Chris Paul occupies that spot but that alone is a good endorsement. A point guard has to do more than pass. Defense is important (Nash’s weakness) but keeping the opponent’s defense honest is really important. I want every player on the floor to be a threat.

I think Boston is limited by Rondo on offense because he can’t shoot.

But put Paul on Dallas with Dirk or on Portland with LMA and he becomes unstoppable (maybe he is in N.O. anyway).

by lee3022 on Jul 22, 2011 7:43 PM PDT reply actions

Yeah, Chris Paul is one of the most underrated players in the league.

Between Paul and Dwight Howard, I’m not sure who’s got a more strenuous job of single-handedly carrying their team.

"I Am Mine"

by AK1984 on Jul 22, 2011 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions

what i like about this is that it's a very simple metric

very low on the “advanced” scale for an advanced stat. sometimes keeping it simple is the path towards understanding.

i miss andre, but i’m excited about felton.

go blazers!

by SaveOden on Jul 23, 2011 7:25 AM PDT reply actions

The concerning difference between Felton and Miller was never passing. It’s scoring efficiency, where Felton has been subpar his entire career and Miller has been quite good.

i keep dancing on my own.

by atomiccafe on Jul 23, 2011 8:41 AM PDT reply actions

It’s scoring efficiency, where Felton has been subpar his entire career and Miller has been quite good.

Unfortunately Miller has also been quite good at killing space. Whatever you lose in scoring efficiency is made up for by the fact that it’s harder to pack the paint with Felton on the floor.

by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 23, 2011 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions