Battle of the Epic Teams
by Dave on Jul 14, 2011 10:00 PM PDT
in News
Email
PrintYesterday's retrospective on the 1990-91 Portland Trail Blazers brought up an interesting debate. In the piece I advanced them as the greatest Blazer squad of all time. Others argued that said honor actually belongs to the 1977-78 Blazers. So let's have it out today.
Here are the lineups and records of the two squads side-by-side plus links to more information:
|
|
1977-78 |
1990-91 |
|
C |
Bill Walton |
Kevin Duckworth |
|
PF |
Maurice Lucas |
Buck Williams |
|
SF |
Bob Gross |
Jerome Kersey |
|
SG |
Lionel Hollins |
Clyde Drexler |
|
PG |
Dave Twardzik |
Terry Porter |
|
R |
Johnny Davis |
Cliff Robinson |
|
R |
Tom Owens |
Danny Ainge |
|
R |
Lloyd Neal |
Mark Bryant |
|
R |
Larry Steele |
Danny Young |
|
Coach |
Jack Ramsay |
Rick Adelman |
|
Rec |
58-24 |
63-19 |
|
Pts |
107.7 |
114.7 |
|
PtsAgst |
101.5 |
106.0 |
Basketball Reference for 1977-78
Basketball Reference for 1990-91
You may use any criteria you wish to compare the two: stats, how they'd fare against each other, how they did against their era's competition, or anything else that crosses your mind. Both of these teams were populated by great players at the heights of their careers. Which one is truly worthy of the designation Best Blazers Team of All Time?
Weigh in below and explain!
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
80 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Shooting from the hip here...
My generation is the Drexler/Porter era but when it comes down to it: which team won the championship?
Yeah, I know Jordan got in the way, but so did Isiah, and he was not Jordan.
"Coach said to always be careful around Greg, because Greg costs a lot and even the slightest amount of basketball can damage him." -- The Onion
by RedUniInLA on Jul 14, 2011 10:18 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
This is about the team after the championship team
The one that “started” the season 50-10 before walton’s injury
Felton will make a lot of people have selective memory on their reaction to draft night
Raymond Felton's job requires him to where a sleeveless shirt in front of thousands of people; it should not be this hard to determine whether or not he is fat.
Trade for Iggy
by thomasikehara on Jul 14, 2011 10:48 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
But the team "after the championship team"
had just won a ring.
Drexler’s teams got beat in the finals by better squads led by better star players.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jul 15, 2011 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions
If healthy, then the 1978 team
Felton will make a lot of people have selective memory on their reaction to draft night
Raymond Felton's job requires him to where a sleeveless shirt in front of thousands of people; it should not be this hard to determine whether or not he is fat.
Trade for Iggy
by thomasikehara on Jul 14, 2011 10:49 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Just to be different, I vote for the 1999-2000 Blazers
the team(in order of scoring averge):
1 Rasheed Wallace
2 Steve Smith
3 Damon Stoudamire
4 Scottie Pippen
5 Arvydas Sabonis
6 Bonzi Wells
7 Detlef Schrempf
8 Brian Grant
9 Greg Anthony
10 Gary Grant
11 Jermaine O’Neal
12 Stacey Augmon
13 Antonio Harvey
14 Joe Kleine
Coach: Mike Dunleavy
Rec 59-23
Pts 97.5
Pts against 91.0
and only half a quarter from the Blazers second championship.
by NWfan on Jul 14, 2011 10:50 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
No doubt in my mind this is the deepest team of any 1-15
The 77-78 team seems strongest in the frontcourt, less so in the back.
The 90-91 team seems strongest in the back, less in the front.
The 99-00 team is mind-bogglingly stellar, with great names up and down the roster.
I would pose the possibility that the 99-00 team is on par with a combined 77-78 and 90-91—at least in terms of talent, close enough to make it interesting:
Walton
Lucas (or Williams)
Kersey
Drexler
Porter
Robinson
Ainge
Davis
Owens
Neal
Steele
Young
Bryant
> Both Sabonis and Walton were amazing passers. Walton has the athleticism, Sabonis the outside shot and the height.
> Either Lucas or Williams matched up against Grant is a full-time wrestling match. All those guys are tough, tougher and toughest. Add Wallace to that mix and you got floor spacing problems defending the outside shot for the combined team.
> We all know how Pippen versus Kersey turned out, but though Pippen at the end of his career was still dazzling, Kersey is in his prime.
> Drexler is a tough matchup for Smith; the combined team wins this one, as well as the Porter versus Stoudamire contest. Neither of the 99-00 guards are pushovers, though, and the combined team would count on Drexler and Porter dominating those matchups.
> The 99-00 bench is far superior, with either Wallace or Grant, Wells, Schrempf, Anthony, O’Neal and Augmon able to start for almost any team. Gary Grant, Harvey and Kleine are really the only bench players.
One massive caveat to close: I was only six or seven during the 77-78 season, and so I’m not giving the majority of that team their due. Gross, Twardzik and the rest were childhood heroes of mine and much beloved, but I only know them as system players—well regarded locally for the team’s on-court success, but outside of Portland lost to history. I’m assuming that whatever their virtues they would be hard pressed matching up with their analogues in the 99-00 team.
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
I forgot Schrempf was on that squad
Minus the collapse (hello, Rasheed fadeaway jumpers) that was an awesome lineup.
Steve Goodman lives.
by twinsbrewer on Jul 15, 2011 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions
That team was My favorite blazer team of all time
Back then everyOne was proclaiming witsitt as a genius, he should have just let that team be
Felton will make a lot of people have selective memory on their reaction to draft night
Raymond Felton's job requires him to where a sleeveless shirt in front of thousands of people; it should not be this hard to determine whether or not he is fat.
Trade for Iggy
by thomasikehara on Jul 15, 2011 12:44 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
that team started out 45-11
heading into an epic matchup against LA, who had the same record.
we lost that game vs. LA (@ the RG), and went onto finish 14-12 the rest of the way. LA went 22-4 during that same stretch and got HC for Gm. 7.
PHILLY!
HC or no HC
blazers dominates that game for 3 quarters, ugh
Felton will make a lot of people have selective memory on their reaction to draft night
Raymond Felton's job requires him to where a sleeveless shirt in front of thousands of people; it should not be this hard to determine whether or not he is fat.
Trade for Iggy
by thomasikehara on Jul 15, 2011 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I suppose the question comes down to...
Who was the better opponent? The 76ers, the Pistons or the Bulls?
"My shoulder is OK. And away we go." -- Nic Batum
"wang-dang diddly wubba SPROING wow-wow" -- Dave
these two particular teams played none of those 3 teams
Felton will make a lot of people have selective memory on their reaction to draft night
Raymond Felton's job requires him to where a sleeveless shirt in front of thousands of people; it should not be this hard to determine whether or not he is fat.
Trade for Iggy
by thomasikehara on Jul 15, 2011 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Dammit
Date read fail. I read as ‘1976-77’ and ‘1991-92’. I blame my own craplulence.
"My shoulder is OK. And away we go." -- Nic Batum
"wang-dang diddly wubba SPROING wow-wow" -- Dave
Game 1-Drexler dominates!
November 5 1976 Neutral Court 07-14-2011
Portland 91 32 23 28 28 111
Portland 26 17 19 33 95
Portland 91 Min FG FT Reb Ast To St Bk PF Pts
Porter 38:22 8-16 1-3 1-5 11 5 2 0 0 17
Drexler 42:44 7-25 12-15 1-9 4 3 3 3 3 26
Kersey 19:48 5-8 2-2 3-6 1 3 1 1 4 12
Williams,B 35:30 8-10 2-4 2-10 1 1 3 3 2 18
Duckworth 34:13 5-9 0-0 0-3 2 2 1 0 3 10
Robinson,C 26:11 5-13 2-2 3-8 2 3 0 1 4 12
Ainge 16:12 5-6 1-1 0-1 4 1 3 0 0 11
Bryant 13:27 0-0 0-0 0-3 0 1 0 1 2 0
Pack 7:43 0-0 2-2 0-0 3 0 1 0 3 2
Strothers 2:35 0-1 1-2 1-1 0 0 0 1 1 1
Whatley 1:55 0-2 0-0 0-0 0 0 1 0 0 0
Abdelnaby 1:05 1-1 0-0 0-1 0 0 0 0 0 2
Cooper 0:17 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 1 0 0
TOTAL 44-91 23-31 11-47 28 19 15 11 22 111
.484 .742
Portland Min FG FT Reb Ast To St Bk PF Pts
Twardzik 31:06 2-8 2-2 1-4 3 6 1 0 4 6
Hollins 38:53 8-22 5-10 4-5 6 2 2 0 4 21
Gross 18:34 3-6 0-1 3-8 0 1 0 0 4 6
Lucas 38:19 9-16 1-3 2-6 3 3 0 1 4 19
Walton 38:51 9-16 1-2 2-11 2 4 1 3 4 19
Steele 16:51 3-5 4-4 0-1 2 4 2 0 3 10
Davis,J 14:14 3-6 0-0 0-0 2 1 1 1 2 6
Calhoun 13:25 2-2 0-0 0-3 1 1 0 0 0 4
Gilliam 11:48 2-3 0-0 0-3 0 3 0 0 1 4
Jones,R 9:13 0-4 0-0 3-6 1 2 0 0 2 0
Neal 4:34 0-1 0-0 0-3 1 0 0 0 0 0
Walker,W 4:14 0-3 0-0 0-0 1 1 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 41-92 13-22 15-50 22 28 7 5 28 95
.446 .591
Lead Changes: 2
Fastbreak Points: Portland 91 20 Portland 22
Bench Scoring: Portland 91 28 Portland 24
Biggest Lead: Portland 91 23 Portland 3
Technicals:
Ejections:
Injuries: Kersey-November 12
DNP Por: Young,D
Por: Mayes
Game MVP:Clyde Drexler
Lucas pours in 33-series even!
November 7 1976 Neutral Court 07-14-2011
Portland 91 23 28 30 21 102
Portland 34 29 27 29 119
Portland 91 Min FG FT Reb Ast To St Bk PF Pts
Porter 37:46 6-17 8-8 1-3 7 3 1 0 2 20
Drexler 24:18 7-15 0-0 0-2 1 3 1 0 5 14
Kersey 38:44 3-11 6-6 5-8 5 1 3 2 2 12
Williams,B 37:30 6-11 0-0 1-5 1 1 2 0 2 12
Duckworth 23:31 3-10 1-1 1-4 0 1 0 0 6 7
Robinson,C 18:50 4-5 2-3 0-3 5 2 1 1 4 10
Ainge 18:41 4-9 2-2 0-1 3 1 1 0 0 10
Bryant 14:22 0-4 0-0 6-7 2 1 1 0 5 0
Pack 13:35 1-4 2-4 0-1 2 1 1 0 0 4
Abdelnaby 8:44 3-6 2-2 0-3 0 1 0 0 3 8
Strothers 3:34 2-4 1-2 0-0 0 0 1 0 0 5
Cooper 0:25 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 39-96 24-28 14-37 26 15 12 3 29 102
.406 .857
Portland Min FG FT Reb Ast To St Bk PF Pts
Twardzik 27:17 5-8 6-6 0-1 5 0 2 0 5 16
Hollins 27:35 7-11 2-2 0-3 3 3 1 1 4 16
Gross 33:15 3-8 3-4 3-8 3 3 1 0 4 9
Lucas 37:18 12-20 9-11 2-8 2 2 0 2 3 33
Walton 35:50 9-14 5-6 2-12 4 0 1 2 4 23
Gilliam 19:39 2-6 0-0 0-4 7 3 1 0 2 4
Davis,J 18:10 0-3 4-5 0-0 3 2 1 0 0 4
Steele 14:27 0-3 1-2 2-2 2 2 1 0 3 1
Jones,R 11:34 3-3 0-0 1-3 0 4 1 0 0 6
Neal 10:35 2-6 1-3 0-1 0 0 0 0 2 5
Calhoun 3:37 1-2 0-0 1-2 0 1 0 0 0 2
Mayes 0:43 0-0 0-0 1-1 0 1 0 0 0 0
TOTAL 44-84 31-39 12-45 29 21 9 5 27 119
.524 .795
Lead Changes: 2
Fastbreak Points: Portland 91 16 Portland 10
Bench Scoring: Portland 91 37 Portland 22
Biggest Lead: Portland 91 0 Portland 17
Technicals:
Ejections:
Injuries:
DNP Por: Whatley Young,D
Por: Walker,W
Game MVP:Maurice Lucas
77-78 team was 50-10
before Waton’s foot. That would’ve been another championship, no doubt.
by Ghostface_Przybilla on Jul 14, 2011 11:36 PM PDT reply actions
The 2010-11 SA Spurs were 52-11 and lost in the 1st rd. Just playing Devils advocate.
by SerenityNow! on Jul 15, 2011 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough
But they weren’t defending champs either
by Ghostface_Przybilla on Jul 15, 2011 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions
But the Spurs have plenty of Championship pedigree
Plus the actual two-time Defending Champs were swept from the playoffs so that doesn’t bring any specific special powers in my book.
That being said…I think the 78 does win another ring if Big Bill doesn’t go down
Me after hearing of a Rudy Hardwood Classic Jersey going for $45:"Take the "RNANDEZ" part off....and sew on a "LTON and you are good to go"."
by 92wastheyear on Jul 15, 2011 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the 77-78 team wins - pre injury
The team chemistry on that team would have made the difference. I’d give Lucas the edge over Buck – but it would have been one tough battle. Clyde and Terry would have had an advantage at the guard position but Walton would have made the difference.
The games were different between the two eras and each team was built for and played in its own era.
1. Three pointers have changed the game – so I don’t think that a direct statistical comparion of points scored in that meaningful.
2. Back in the 70’s, the Center and Power Forward were more important, and Bill Walton and Luke were two of the best. That’s why Jabbar and Wilt and Russell before Jabbar and Walton were so dominant back then. The game slowly became more guard-centric. Players could also dominate the game physically without risking as much penalty at later. And Luke was the best at intimidating and getting inside everyone’s head.
3. The game was just evolving to be played “above the rim” – that’s why back then Julius Erving was such a sensation because he broke new ground.
4. It’s my opinion, but I’d argue that Dr. Jack Ramsay was the best coach the Blazers have had in comparison to his rival coaches of the time. IMHO in the series against Chicaco, Phil Jackson outcoached Adelman.
So if the two teams were to go head-to-head against one another, which set of rules would you use?
I like the championship team. But I think in these polls, people tend to vote for the team they grew up with and watched the most. Ultimately I think these topics are fun to discuss, but which team is better is a pretty undecideable question.
-Jack
by jayfisher on Jul 15, 2011 12:03 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Something to ponder.
The 90-91 team was a fast paced team (4th in the league) that lived off Clyde and Kersey running the floor. But they can’t run if they can’t get rebounds. How many rebounds do you think Duck and Buck get against Walton and Lucas? Walton averaged 13.2 boards a game and Lucas chipped in 9.1. Walton had led the NBA in rebounding the year before. Bobby Gross was a similar energy player to Kersey, and wouldn’t have let Jerome get many easy run-outs.
In terms of 3-pt shooting – Larry Steele lived off shooting from the baseline corner (3-pt shots today) and Hollins had range too. They wouldn’t have given up that much to Porter and Ainge (the only good 3-pt shooters on that team).
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 15, 2011 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions
The rebounding thing
90-91 team was great at team rebounding …every one of the starters were good rebounders for their position …with the xception of Duck who was a marginal rebounder for a center (but this may have been in part because he played with these others). They also played against some other great rebounders and did fine. I don’t think that ends up being an automatic plus for the 78 team
Me after hearing of a Rudy Hardwood Classic Jersey going for $45:"Take the "RNANDEZ" part off....and sew on a "LTON and you are good to go"."
by 92wastheyear on Jul 15, 2011 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions
I can't help but think of the recent commercials for "Bad Teacher"
Russell: “There is no way that LeBron will ever beat Jordan. Call me when LeBron has 6 championships.”
Shawn: “That’s you’re only argument?”
Russell: “It’s the only argument I need!!”
Call me when the ’90s Blazers have a championship.
by Timmay! on Jul 15, 2011 12:39 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
78 team didn't win the championship either
But thanks for the Bad Teacher reference…I enjoyed that movie even if the critics didn’t
Me after hearing of a Rudy Hardwood Classic Jersey going for $45:"Take the "RNANDEZ" part off....and sew on a "LTON and you are good to go"."
by 92wastheyear on Jul 15, 2011 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Matchups
77-78 wins on matchups if they go head to head. Walton averages a triple double
I
by joelor on Jul 15, 2011 1:42 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I may have started this debate yesterday (since I was the first to post about it)
and I’m firmly on the side of the 77-78 team.
You have to consider the 77-78 team played only the first 60 games before injuries took out Walton (and later Gross, and Lloyd Neal too if I remember correctly). So the real Win-Loss records to compare are that the 77-78 team lost 10 games on its way to 50 wins (50-10), while the 90-91 team lost 18 games to get to its 50th win (50-18 record).
For the record, I’ll just repeat below my arguments from yesterday, but I was fortunate enough to attend every home game of both of those two seasons, so my opinion is based on season-long birds-eye views of both teams sitting a few rows off the court. I’m not saying that necessarily makes me right, just that my opinion isn’t based on simply statistics or legend. I was there in way back in 77-78.
The greatest team in Blazer history was the 1977-78 team that went 50-10 before Walton went down. The 90-91 team was very. very good and we thought they could win every game. But the 77-78 team was very, very great, and we knew they were going to win every game (I still don’t know how they lost those 10 before they lost Walton – they must have got bored or something.)
Seriously, the BBIQ of that team was off the charts, as was the front line skill of Walton (our leading scorer, leading assist-maker – point-center, leading rebounder, and leading shot-blocker) and his buddy Mo Lucas (scorer, rebounder, and intimidator). It would have been interesting watching the 77-78 team against the 90-91 team in their primes, but ultimately the 77-78 team would have won for the same reason that 90-91 never won a championship. They lacked the BBIQ, and the other teams had the better Super-Stars (Walton, Magic, and Jordan).
I loved those Clyde, Porter, Buck, Kersey, Duck teams for the players, perhaps more than the Walton teams. But the 77-78 team was one of the all-time greatest NBA teams ever for 60 games until injuries got them.
What was so special about that 77-78 team was the way they played basketball. It was a clinic in team basketball (as cliche as that sounds), even though they had the best player in the NBA at that time. They were a tremendous fast break team and a tremendous half court team. Walton was a center leading the team in assists, which gives you some picture of the type of moving, cutting half-court offense Dr Jack designed.
Most people don’t remember how great Bill Walton was. Imagine a player today leading the best team in the NBA in points, assists, rebounds, and blocks for a season. Walton’s blocks per game (3.2) led the NBA that season and he also had the #1 defensive rating in the NBA. No wonder he was the league MVP in 77-78 (and the Finals MVP the year before).
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 15, 2011 2:08 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Loved watching that team play again when Comcast replayed the 76-77 series versus the 76ers.
Almost forgot how well they played – how well they moved the ball. They had great team chemistry and as stated, basketball IQ. Walton was an amazing player and made those around him so much better. I really enjoyed the 90-91 team, but would be really surprised if they could have beaten the 77-78 team.
Theres a saying...
Great players could have played in any era. Walton, Lucas and maybe Hollins would have been just fine playing today with all the fancy sports drinks and the cortisone injections and the increasing average heights in the world. Drexler, Porter and Kersey would have also been fine today. The difference would come in the filling of the details. The scrub from ’90 likely would have wiped the floor with the scrub from ’77. So while the frontcourt in ’77 was the greater without a doubt, I wonder what possible answer the ’77 team would have for Danny Ainge coming off that bench.
That's my problem, too.
I think I can understand the argument that Walton and Lucas were great, but I need to know more about the distinctive strengths of the other ten or thirteen guys. I mean, how athletic were they? Were they any good on defense?
Since the question of which team was greater was posed with no standard, my best answer is that the better team depended on what that was. If number of championships, the 77-78 team wins. If athleticism, I guess the 90-91 team. If in comparison to their competition…?
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
That would be Larry Steele and Johnny Davis!
What answer would the newer team have for Lloyd Neal? That Blazer team didn’t give up much when he came in to spell Walton or Lucas.
Uncle Cliffy
Me after hearing of a Rudy Hardwood Classic Jersey going for $45:"Take the "RNANDEZ" part off....and sew on a "LTON and you are good to go"."
by 92wastheyear on Jul 15, 2011 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Of course I choose the 77-78 team.
I watched them play and it was the most amazing clinic of BB and BBIQ I had seen before and after. Of course we only got games of the week back in those days on national TV, so Dr. J was the national stud of the time. Walton with his hippie ways was the most unappealing player. But the defense, rebounding and fast breaks have never been matched IMO.
We compare Walton before and after injuries but remember him when he was healthy, which was only for about 2 season’s If we could have compared a healthy Greg, LMA, Batum, BRoy, and Dre, I would wonder who would have been the greatest Blazer team. But if we had gotten Hakeem Olajuwon, or Sabby when we drafted him, either being better then bowie or Duckworth. In that day and ege of BB. would have made a big different. If you are compareing Walton before injury, then you would also have to consider bowie before injury, Sabby before injury and that is too brain racking to know.
hg
Clyde's the BEST - but 77 is the team
Statistics can’t explain this one. Walton’s team didn’t have the raw talent or a dynamite superstar, but they have rings because they all willed each other to win as a TEAM – everybody connected. There were too many moments when Drexler (and only him) would try to carry the entire team on his back because the team couldn’t connect. I love Clyde, Terry, Buck, Jerome, and Duck like family, but they could only count on one in the clutch. Of course there are exceptions to the rule.
Porter was more clutch than Drexler.
Clyde was easily the best player on the team but I know I am not alone when I say I felt more comfortable with Terry taking the buzzer beater for the win.
Who's that tromping across my bedge?
by Troll Blazer on Jul 15, 2011 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Rings trump regular season prowess.
Nuff said.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jul 15, 2011 6:48 AM PDT reply actions
Not always the case.
The 1995-1996 Seattle SuperSonics would’ve crushed the 1978-1979 Seattle SuperSonics.
"They say it has no memory. That’s where I want to live the rest of my life. A warm place with no memory."
Haviing seen them both (albiet being a teenager for the 77-78 season)
In my mind hands down the 77-78 team was better. It is my opinion that if that team had remained healthy a repeat was a given (once again if healthy) and the 90-91 team couldn’t even make it to the finals.
I have yet to see a team since that team (and I mean any NBA team, much less any other Blazer team) that played as pure of a game as that team. They were a perfect team because of Bill Walton and the talent that surrounded and complimented him.
I never felt that the 90-91 team was a dominant force except for the opening 20 games. I always felt that they could lose in the playoffs (which they did) although I sure did think that they had a fantastic chance at winning it all. I never felt that way about the 77-78 team. I always felt that this team would easily win back-to-back championships and you would be talking about them being one of the all time best teams. Alas, injuries ruined all of that….
#52
I suspect the bias towards the more recent team is due to youth on this board
Few probably really watched the 78’ team. They played very together as a team. Any advantage that Drexler gave his team would be eaten up by Walton and the bench guys. And I’m a fan of both of these great teams. Bottom line is that the Walton Blazers did what no other Blazer team has done since, GET IT DONE! Bring home the trophy! The deep playoff runs were a lot of fun, but not like being champs for a season!
I hate to sound like the old fogy ...
… but I don’t think stats are enough to give the “younger fan” an idea of the power of the 77-78 team. You had to see them wipe the floor with every opponent (except, if memory serves, the lowly N.O. Jazz), until injury struck. If you choose to compare based on sheer dominance of the opposition, the older Team (with a capital T) truly bests the 90-91Team.
Oops, now I see I echo the previous two posts. Oh well, make it three votes in a row.
Exactly.
I’m not old enough to have seen them, but I’ll take a healthy Bill Walton over any Blazer that has ever played the game. He was THAT good. Teams with the best player have an advantage. We saw that plainly this last post season against the Mavs.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jul 15, 2011 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Of course...factoring health into it...
Well…that’s where the 78’ team obviously falls apart.
So sad. May it never happen to a Blazer team again.
Wait…
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jul 15, 2011 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions
how about a young and healthy Sabonis?
I always thought the biggest tragedy in Blazer history was that the Drexler team didn’t have Sabonis on it.
by chown on Jul 15, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Multiple champs
With healthy Sabonis in his prime on the team MJ would have difficulties having any of his rings. People sometimes don’t realise how amazing Sabas was when healthy.
by Behemot on Jul 15, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sabas was the best player in the world pre-Jordan title #1
and you can make an argument he was better than Jordan cuz of the old championships-big men relationship. Point is, he was one of the best in the world, and definitely the best center in the world at the time, and that equals titles. Kicked our butts in the olympics, thats for sure.
by avalancheman on Jul 17, 2011 2:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh yeah.
He was awesome enough when lurching about like Frankenstein.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jul 15, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Precisely right! You had to see them take out opponents to understand how easily they did it.
When you watched the 90-91 team you always felt they could win every game, but you knew it could be a struggle and they might lose. It just wasn’t that way with the 77-78 team. You sat and watched and just waited for the explosion you knew was coming. You knew they were going to suddenly take off and destroy the other team. The 8 games they lost with Walton playing that season seemed shocking – like how did that happen? (Walton missed 2 of the games in which the Blazers went 50-10 before he was injured).
Bill Walton’s BBIQ was off the charts and he was the ultimate team player. As much as I loved Clyde, you simply can’t say those things about him. Clyde did amazing things on the court, but he also tried to do too much himself and sometimes it cost his team. I think he let playing second fiddle to Jordan get in his head. Overall, Clyde’s 90-92 teams simply didn’t have the basketball moxie to win it all. They got beat by smarter teams and smarter, more talented players (Detroit, Lakers, Chicago, Magic, and Jordan). Walton’s 76-77 team won over Philadelphia because it was the smarter team and Walton was the best player in the NBA at the time. The 77-78 team was the culmination of everything that 76-77 championship team had learned and refined the year before.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 15, 2011 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Clyde was actually more athletic than Jordan
but had FAR less of that ol’ killer instinct. Jordan wanted it more, NEEDED it more than any other player I’ve ever watched in any sport, which is why people try to say hes the best player in history… I say Russell, but meh… not even Russell would have out-worked Jordan. Clyde gave Jordan the first chair, and never won a title in Portland.
Walton was VERY smart, and is the best player to ever put on a Portland uniform, and Lucas might have been true MVP material the way he held that team together. Problem is, you cant lose a number one and expect greatness. 77-78 would have won another title barring injury… but the league was still in its wild-west phase.
by avalancheman on Jul 17, 2011 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Hmm...
…it may seem odd, but my recent admissions of the early 90’s team being my favorite incarnation of The Blazers aside…
I voted for the 76-77 Blazers as “best”.
Why? I think you have to put the championship team front and center. And as much as I loved that 90’s group, as much as I do believe that team was championship quality, as much as I believe it was the best Blazer team I really witnessed with an adult perspective, I cannot vote it “The Best” because it never got rings.
I have all the respect in the world for that 90’s team….as well as respect for the 76-77 roster. But I’m also afraid that if you went head to head? Somehow that 76-77 team would find a way to win. It might come from the great artistery that was a healthy Bill Walton…or it might come from the sheer will of Maurice Lucas or the genius of Jack Ramsay or more likely from all of it…but they’ed find a way to win.
So in a reversal of recent commentary and position….I’m going with the spirit of 76.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
When you look at the old footage
it’s like looking at old movies or TV some of it holds up and some looks silly and dated. The 77 championship teams looks really dated and it looks like a college BB team. The sport really grew up in the eighties and the athletes were far superior. I will go with Clyde and Co.
The eras make head-to-head comparisons impossible.
As much as I would love to see Joe Louis box Ali, I know it will never happen.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jul 15, 2011 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm a big Joe Louis fan
but footage of Ali makes me weep. What an incredible athlete and technician. Still, I think it’s impossible to compare eras.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jul 15, 2011 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions
not rocket science
I’m old enough to have seen both these teams play. The Drexler lead teams were great teams. Porter, Drexler and Kersey ran the floor like a ballet on speed. I remember one game where they ran Boston off the court at the Garden (Boston) scoring over 130 points. In the last 5 minutes of a game, the defense always tightened up. They played the kind of basketball I love. However,
The 77 Blazers were a special team, one you rarely see, where all the pieces fit, and one truly great player and two extremely good players make up the basic 3 required to win a championship. This was a well-oiled machine, extremely good in the clutch. They were 50-9 when Walton went down the following year, and then the team blew up…But, in all my years of watching B-Ball, I don’t think I’ve seen a team that was such a great team…mayby some of the Celtics teams in the 50’s – early 60’s, but, while old enough ;(, I didn’t really see them play much.
No, it’s not about stats…I will never forget watching Walton snag a rebound, turning in mid air in one motion, making a half court outlet to Hollins on the wing for a fast break. Walton was the most incredibly talented, highest BB IQ, determined to win player I’ve ever seen. He could do everything, past, shoot, post, rebound…and when the game was on the line, he was a monster. There were plenty of centers who could do some things better than Walton, Alijawon or Shaz scoring in the post, e.g., but no center in my experience who could do everything Walton could do as well as he could.
While Clyde had to face Michael et al., don’t forget that Walton and Co. had to face Dr. J and a great and very athletic sixer team – Doug Collins, Chocolate Thunder…
And, in the end, who won it all? That has to be the best Blazer team, because, after all, isn’t that the final measure?
I think one factor few people are considering is
the head coach. Jack Ramsey was a vastly superior coach to Rick Adelman.
Talent wise, the two teams are close, although the bulk of the talent lay at different positions. The closest matchup is PF, where Lucas and Buck are essentially a wash.
Walton obviously was a lot better than Duckworth, but Drexler was a lot better than Hollins. Kersey was a lot more athletic than Bobby Gross, but Gross was one of the smartest players I ever saw. He just always seemed to know where he needed to be.
Porter was better than Twardzik, but Twardzik was one of those glue guys teams need to have. And Porter’s flaw was that he needed to shoot. It used to drive me nuts that I could predict possessions that he would launch a quick three — if they went 3 or 4 possessions without Porter getting a shot or assist, he would fire away.
I like the older team better because they played so intelligently. They never, or almost never, made mental errors or committed dumb turnovers. As athletically brilliant Drexler & Co were, you could take them out of their game.
by hercher on Jul 15, 2011 9:55 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Not me...
….when I say, the 76-77 team would find a way to win? A big part of that is respect for Ramsay. Not only do I believe he would have his roster achieving at the highest level BUT I simultaneously believe he’d evaluate the opposition and have his roster prepared to deal with the talents of the 90’s Blazers…
Some coaches trancend simply being a coach, and IMO Ramsay is a basketball genius.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
Oh yeah, I hate to be such a fan boy ...
… but I couldn’t help gushing when I got Jack’s autograph on the sleeve of a little plastic record they were giving away of him describing “Pressure Defense.” I’m sure it’s around here somewhere …
And let us also not forget that
Dr. Jack was a fashion genius, as well!
Question, my all time team - Guess the answer:
Center: Moses Malone
PF: Bob McAdoo
SF: Larry Bird
SG: Mike Jordan
PG:Me, You, Anybody you want.
Yes, the answer is players the Blazers could have drafted (or knew they should have drafted) rather than guys they did draft. Moses is outside this box because in his case we had him and traded him for a draft pick rather than pay him 80k to back up Walton. Given the first 4, I figure any 5th person in the world could play point for these guys.
You could throw in a bench player, too
Kevin Durant.
Portland drafting Larry Bird over Mychal Thompson would've been a risky proposition.
In 1978, Bird still had one year of college eligibility left and Portland couldn’t afford to wait around back then.
Also, there was real concern Bird may spur the team that drafted him in 1978 and enter the 1979 NBA Draft.
Yet, luckily for the Boston Celtics, Bird signed shortly after losing the NCAA Men’s Basketball Championship Game.
"They say it has no memory. That’s where I want to live the rest of my life. A warm place with no memory."
Here is the team of guys we got instead of above:
C; Larue
PF: Robin Jones (walton’s backup when Moses was traded)
SF: Mychal Thompson (played sf as a rookie, grew into 4-5)
SG: no one since we took Bowie for Jordan
PG: Martell
Put in Martell, since i realize i forgot to put Chris Paul in above.
Also, interesting if Magic had declared as a freshman, we wouldn’t have drafted him either. I read a book that talked about him speaking with the Kings, who picked 2nd that year. This infers the Blazers had already told him he wasn’t on radar to be first pick, i believe.
Dave - is there any question now?
I think everyone that closely watched and followed both teams agree in the posts above that the Walton team was superior, not just for its skill, but perhaps most importantly for the BBIQ of its players and Dr. Jack.
If we haven’t convinced you yet, I’d love to hear your counter-argument?
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 15, 2011 1:12 PM PDT reply actions
What's seems to be apparent in our history is that it takes about a decade to put together a championship team.
Are we on course?
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Well yes, either a decade ...
combined with luck (good vs our current bad), or barring that, the dissolution of the ABA.
76-77 won it all
77-78 lost in the 2nd round (after 1st round bye)
Me after hearing of a Rudy Hardwood Classic Jersey going for $45:"Take the "RNANDEZ" part off....and sew on a "LTON and you are good to go"."
by 92wastheyear on Jul 15, 2011 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I have no horse in this race, but here's an interesting statistical comparison.
Simple Rating System (i.e., Margin of Victory + Strength of Schedule): 1990-1991 (8.47) > 1977-1978 (5.92)
Pythagorean Record (i.e., Expected Wins & Losses): 1990-1991 (62-10) > 1977-1978 (57-25)
Effective Field-Goal Percentage: 1990-1991 (50.9%) > 1978-1979 (48.3%)
Effective Field Goal Percentage Allowed: 1978-1979 (44.9%) > 1990-1991 (47.3%)
Difference: 1990-1991 (3.6%) > 1978-1979 (3.4%)
Offensive Rebounding Percentage: 1990-1991 (33.8%) > 1978-1979 (32.0%)
Defensive Rebounding Percentage: 1990-1991 (70.4%) > 1978-1979 (69.4%)
Turnover Percentage: 1990-1991 (13.4%) > 1978-1979 (16.3%)
Forced Turnover Percentage: 1978-1979 (16.3%) > 1990-1991 (14.4%)
Difference: 1990-1991 (+1.0%) > 1978-1979 (0.0%)
Free-Throws Made Per Field-Goal Attempts: 1990-1991 (25.9%) > 1977-1978 (23.3%)
Free Throws Allowed Per Field-Goal Attempts Allowed: 1978-1979 (23.9%) > 1990-1991 (25.0%)
Difference: 1990-1991 (+0.9%) > 1978-1979 (-0.6%)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1978.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1991.html
Statistically, the edge goes to the 1990-1991 squad over the 1978-1979 squad. Take that for what you will.
"They say it has no memory. That’s where I want to live the rest of my life. A warm place with no memory."
but
the 77-78 team was only together for 60 games before walton got hurt
Felton will make a lot of people have selective memory on their reaction to draft night
Raymond Felton's job requires him to where a sleeveless shirt in front of thousands of people; it should not be this hard to determine whether or not he is fat.
Trade for Iggy
by thomasikehara on Jul 15, 2011 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions
With Bill Walton, I'd give the edge to the 1977-1978 squad.
Without Bill Walton, I’d say the 1990-1991 squad wins easily.
"They say it has no memory. That’s where I want to live the rest of my life. A warm place with no memory."
One other vote for Walton and the 77-78 team
The 76-77 team and the team that started the following year, were basically the same team but I think the 77-78 team were extremely confident following the championship year.
In that 76-77 championship run, Walton ended up going against Artis Gilmore, Dan Issel, and Kareem before facing the 76ers – three very different, but very talented centers and Walton and crew came out on top each time.
Hey
A picture is worth a thousand stats…I realize there is a generation gap (or two) here, but if basketball is put into any category at all, the Walton led 77-78 team was dynamic to say the least.. “Red Hot and Rollin” was not just a marketing jingle, it was a pure and simple fact that this team produced daily on the court.
They were untouchable and became the extension (or replacement) for the Auerbach philosophy of solid defense that supported fast break basketball. However this was not just a tactical philosophy, it was historically proven to be the best "team"approach to successful basketball. Notice I said “team”…Not to say you don’t need the correct compliment of players, coaching and even a catalyst like Walton to make it happen….., but this team was assembled quickly and had lesser stars than your average championship caliber teams.Ramsey introduced a system to compliment the players he had and they adapted, then proceeded to leave it all out there on the court.
The 77 team was better than the 76 championship team. In 76 they learned how to win In 77 they became winners.
that said; Walton was fragile and the team success depended on his leadership and skills to be what it was….for this short time period this team was immeasurable when it came to getting results.
Sorry, I took a bit of a grandstand approach to this, I’m a generation or two ahead of most people in here and this was my team (when I still lived in Portland) I still have old videos of several of this team’s games….I’m still, to this day, awestruck by my vision of how I like to see the game played. Like I have said before, once you have deemed you’ve seen the best, it’s hard to accept anything less.
It’s difficult to compare eras and put them in the proper perspective, (3 point shot) but I vote for the 77-78 team because in my mind they would beat Drexler’s team in a seven game series, if they had home court advantage and no 3 point shot (alternating home and away)
Up and running.........and almost defending.
I'm of your generation, too
and attended lots of games during both eras. Being kinda old school when it comes to basketball – as just one example, I’ve always thought the 3-point shot has had a very detrimental effect on the overall quality of play – I have to go with the pre-injury 77-78 Blazers as the best team (emphasis on “team”) I’ve ever seen. It’s a close call, though; both those squads were a lot of fun to watch play.
"Send lawyers, guns and money; the [nsfbe] has hit the fan." - Warren Zevon
Ramsey disliked the 3 point shot
He didn’t think you should reward a player with an extra point for shooting a lower % shot. Getting the best shot possible using a quick offensive transition, generated out of a strict defensive commitment was his foundation for setting the identity of his teams. I do believe that is one of the reasons he opted out of coaching further down the road. He had a hard line philosophy of the game and how it should be played….he was flexible with the players he had, but not so much with how to get from point A to point B….I have debated (myself) over the 3 point shot, and because of my age and my own playing days, I much prefer not having the 3 point shot.
It has helped to even the playing field by spreading the floor for an inside-outside game, but it also force feeds predictable basketball and one on one individuality.(as opposed to team dynamics)
When the NBA adopted the 3 point shot from the old ABA my initial reaction was, it’s a gimmick to help sell tickets because it created a more circus like atmosphere that tended to pull in a wider range of fans. Most old school basketball fans have adapted, but I do think it changed the game in a dramatic fashion….I will yield to the new generation only because todays game is what it is….not so much philosophy and team commitment, but rather individual stardom and show-time entertainment for a wider group of people.
Entertainment value belongs to the individual fan, but I would not pay $120 + for a second row seat to watch Roy go one one against Kobe. (just threw that # out there I don’t know what it actually costs any more….I spent an average of $18 to watch some Drexler games (medium to upper level seats in the MC) $11 ave. to watch Walton era games) and $3.50 (1st &second row student discount in the first two seasons)…Note; this was general admission, but you could sit in any seat after the first 6 min. of the first quarter.
Up and running.........and almost defending.
Player by player I voted as follows:
The 90/91 team had advantages with Drexler over Hollins, Kersey over Gross, and Porter over Twardzik. The 77/78 team won all the other head-to-head battles as listed in the columns. Advantage and victory goes to the 70s team.
Wolf. Wolfgang Wolf
Roster correction(?)
Twardzik started most of the games at PG in ‘76-’77, but then Ramsay replaced Twardzik with Davis in the playoffs (if memory serves) because he wanted more speed in the starting lineup. I believe the carried over into ‘77-’78, which would put Johnny D at PG, and Twardzik as the reserve.
But I can’t verify this online and my memory is pretty rusty, so…
"Ted Thompson's running Brett Favre out of Green Bay was the biggest mistake by a GM in the history of the league."
-Skip Bayless, November 2008
by The Cactus Leaguer on Jul 18, 2011 4:51 PM PDT reply actions
Yes
Twardz was replaced by Davis in most of the playoff games that I watched recently on NBA TV. Davis was lightening quick and I’m sure fit best in Ramsey’s game plan (to run up the opponents back)
The team identified themselves during the season and realized open court play was their destiny. However, Twardz was a smart player and had a steadying influence on this young team. He was an excellent penetrator and floor general, but he was only an average shooter and not good on the free throw line. (67%) Davis was generally not a scorer either, but he was a decent defender and was always the fastest player on the floor. He was equally as fast when dribbling and teams had to give him 5 feet of room (behind them) to keep pace. And because of Gross and Hollins, most teams could send only two at the offensive boards.
Up and running.........and almost defending.
77-78
This is mostly a gut thing for me, I haven’t really analyzed it in my head. They just DOMINATED the other teams, and this was in an era where there was a lot of parity (post ABA merger), and 50 wins could make you the best team in the league.
One game that stood out for me was early in the season. I think they were playing at Atlanta and the two teams were tied for the best record in the league. Big early season matchup… and the Blazers absolutely annihilated the Hawks, beat them by like 40 points, and it wasn’t even THAT close. And around then everybody around the league was kind of like “Well, it’s over. Portland is going to repeat. Done and done. NO doubt about it…” And all the key players were under 27(?!?). Scary. And sad.
I think the 77-78 Blazers would have drilled the Pistons, Lakers, or Bulls teams of the early 90’s, and all three of those teams beat my beloved Drexler/Porter/et al teams.
"Ted Thompson's running Brett Favre out of Green Bay was the biggest mistake by a GM in the history of the league."
-Skip Bayless, November 2008
by The Cactus Leaguer on Jul 18, 2011 5:01 PM PDT reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Blazer's Edge
Related FanShots on Blazer's Edge
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Behind the Box Score, where the Boston Celtics are moving on to the conference finals
- NBA Playoffs Fan Fiction: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- The Indiana Pacers? Gone till November
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
