Blazersedge Mailbag: The Cap, Tax, and Money Issues
Dave,
I'm a little confused about the Blazers situation. I hear that our team can't afford to keep Brandon Roy plus Oden, Batum, etc. Yet the Miami Heat still exist, ESPN desperately wants Dwight Howard to go to LA, and Chris Paul is doing everything he can to go to New York. How can all these scenarios exist, with max-salary stars creating super teams, while a group like the Blazers cannot afford to hold their own core together?
Great question! You've actually answered most of it yourself.
The Miami Heat still exist, in part, because they existed before the new CBA. But even beyond that, remember that no agreement of any sort will stop a team from signing (and by extension affording) stars. The salaries that LeBron James and Dwyane Wade draw would be paid by any team in the league, even when they're playing together. The problem isn't that they're making so much, it's that there aren't enough players like that to go around.
This lack of true star power leads to the real league poison and the real need for the CBA restrictions: players who can't play like those superstars but still get paid like it. Any team could afford James, Wade, and Chris Bosh. No team in the league could afford Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd, and Rashard Lewis. With the new luxury tax rules a franchise has to be ultra-careful about offering those enormous contracts to just anyone.
This is one of the differences between Portland's situation and Miami's. The Heat ended up paying established superstars with proven track records. The Blazers are speculating on younger talent. Miami can target 2-3 players with its money. The Blazers have to shotgun five or six, not knowing which ones will truly pan out. Now the numbers start adding up. The Heat have the luxury of paying $45 million to three players and $2-4 million per year to everyone else. The Blazers have to pay $40 million to three players and $30 million to three others and $5-6 million to a few more. Adding up the 12-15 man rosters Portland can easily end up paying more for speculative talent than the Heat pay for actual talent.
Also notice the teams you've mentioned. The Miami Heat have Wade and James while Chris Paul wants to go to the New York Knicks and ESPN wants Dwight Howard with the Los Angeles Lakers. Notice the commonality there? Or better yet, notice a distinct lack of Sacramentos, Utahs, and Minnesotas? Major markets with major TV deals and revenue streams can still afford to take a tax hit more than small-town teams. Anything short of complete revenue sharing--a virtual impossibility--will leave that situation intact.
Has anyone brought up the possibility of Roy taking a pay cut to stay in Portland? Is it even logistically possible to negotiate what he has into a shorter, incentive-laden contract? The team is highly motivated to keep him for a number of reasons (including loyalty and avoiding alienating the fan base), and I'd imagine he has some loyalty to the team as well as preserving self-interest. I'm not sure what the market for him will be like, but if he cuts his base salary while increasing incentives, I see everybody winning. The Blazers get to save the amnesty clause, have a chance to show loyalty to a guy who's done a ton for the team, as well as a chance to see what he has left. Roy gets an opportunity to make money and get healthier this year while reinventing himself as a player in a system he already knows, and basically to audition for the 2012/13 season. Thoughts?
Why in the world would he do that? He wasn't paid at anything near an All-NBA level when he was producing All-NBA numbers. This is the first contract where he's made anything at all relative to his star-level NBA peers. He can (justifiably) view the money as a lifetime achievement award, leveling out the years of low compensation no matter how he's able to perform now. The money is precisely the way the Blazers are "showing loyalty to a guy who's done a ton for the team". Also you'd need to talk to his agent who is due a huge chunk of change for negotiating that contract. I don't think he'd be really eager to give it back.
If Roy were a grizzled veteran on his last contract and last legs looking for a shot at a title with a contender we might be able to have this discussion. None of that applies here. Unless Brandon is some kind of altruistic (masochistic?) saint, he won't be giving up that contract anytime soon.
[Edit: Even if he could. Read the comments below for Storyteller's excellent explanation of the reasons this can't work, at least right now, under the new CBA.]
I was wondering how that bidding system would work. It just seems like the league is forcing a player waived from the amnesty to go to a team who bids the highest, almost like forced free-agency. Shouldn't the player have more free choice of where he ends up? Why would anybody in the players union agree to this forceful acquisition? Also, theoretically what if the highest bidding amount is for 4 million a year. Can a team above the salary cap counter the below cap team with the mid-level exception? It makes no sense if a team over the salary cap is willing to pay more for an amnesty player and still lose out to a team below the cap.
Your description is accurate as far as it goes. This is part of why it was better to be an owner than a player in this CBA fight. But you can also look at it like the player having had the free choice when his contract was up. He elected to sign a deal for X years and to be bound by that contract even if it was traded to another team. Technically he's still getting paid that contract money by his original team even if he's waived under amnesty. Other teams are bidding cash for the right to acquire him, almost like cash considerations in a normal trade. It's to the advantage of the original team to get as much in compensation as possible in any trade scenario...including this faux one. When you start to itch because it's not really a trade remember also that he's not really a free agent in the classic sense either, as he's still getting paid.
I happen to like this rule because it prevents a half-dozen decent players from taking one million dollar contracts to play in Miami. If there were no bidding and no "forced free agency" there's no incentive to pay these guys anything and no incentive for them to go to any lower-profile team. Even if the Warriors throw $6 million at the guy and the Lakers only $1 million the player doesn't see any difference so he just takes L.A.'s money. That seems to thwart the spirit of the game and its competition.
The way I understand it only teams under the cap can bid so exceptions wouldn't be an issue. The new over-the-cap exception is only $3 million per year anyway. I don't think a team that was a million under the cap could use its $5 million exception to bid on an amnestied player. I'm sure Storyteller will correct me if I'm wrong about that.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Comments
First on the issue of Roy taking a pay cut
There were three rules of the previous CBA that would make this impossible for the Blazers:
a Player Contract covering a term of four (4) or more Seasons may be renegotiated no sooner than the third anniversary of the signing of the Contract.
In no event may a Team with a Team Salary at or above the Salary Cap renegotiate a Player Contract.
In no event shall a Team and player negotiate a decrease in Salary or in any Incentive Compensation for any Salary Cap Year covered by a Player Contract.
All 3 can be found in Article VII, Section 7 ©
Going through them one by one:
a) Brandon signed his current contract on 8/6/09, so the 3 year requisite waiting period has not passed
b) Portland is not below the Salary Cap, which is necessary to renegotiate contracts
c) Renegotiating contracts for less money is simply not allowed
So if even one of these rules makes it to the new CBA (and I would bet that all three will be in the new agreement), Portland would not be allowed to renegotiate Brandon’s contract.
This takes nothing away from Dave’s reply – he’s absolutely right in what he says. It just points out that, additionally, it just isn’t allowed.
by Storyteller on Dec 6, 2011 10:18 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Storyteller...
Would you mind posting something that explains just what the 150 day lockout really accomplished in terms of “fixing the broken NBA business model”? Sure, the owners saved a ton of money over ten years, but isn’t that fool’s gold in terms of establishing competitive balance and keeping the likes of Howard and Paul from fleeing to LA, NY, or wherever? And while you’re at it, would you please propose a plan fo seeing that ESPN is somehow put out of business? I realize that Stern can always go to work there after he leaves the NBA, but that’s no reason to pretend that ESPN isn’t really running the show right now.
Dwight Howard and Chris Paul leaving to bigger markets would be GOOD for business on the whole.
Also, regarding your hope “that ESPN is somehow put out of business,” that kind of talk saddens Mickey Mouse. Besides, you don’t want the zombie of Walt Disney coming after you. Also, Time Warner is upset you failed to acknowledge TNT in your misguided hatred for the NBA’s TV partners. Being ignored hurts.
Snark and sarcasm aside, though, the NBA lockout wasn’t about competitive balance, but rather the BRI split and the league’s financial sustainability. Anyone who thought that it was about competitive balance bought the b/s spin from NBA Commissioner David Stern and the owners who pay him handsomely.
"I Am Mine"
Hmmm, I guess I bought the BS...
although I thought it was P. Allen’s BS. If I actually bought Stern’s BS, then I should be put out of business (along with ESPN, Mickey Mouse, TNT, etc. 8>).
As for competitive balance
A couple of immediate changes will help slightly – such as the implementation of a smaller MLE for taxpaying teams (which tend to be teams who already have star players), but also the implementation of a hard cap for teams that use the full $5 million MLE or the BAE, because once a team uses one of those exceptions, they can’t go above $74.3 million in team salary ($4 million above the tax threshold). Also, enhanced revenue sharing could help level the playing field, as smaller market teams would theoretically have more money to spend and perhaps even be more likely to exceed the tax threshold.
In 2 years, more changes will be implemented that will clamp down a bit further on situations like Howard and Paul. For example, no teams over the threshold will be able to get a player via sign and trade.
There will never be parity in the NBA. But the new agreement is trying to bring the teams a bit closer in terms of competitive balance.
Though it does frustrate me no end...
to realize that the Blazers don’t seem likely to ever land the best players , I often think back to how the Blazers beat a “superior” Philly team for all of the marbles in 76-77. Maybe lightening can strike twice…
I'm also thrilled the CBA prevents the "get Amnesty, head to Miami" concept.
I’m surprised but happy that was written into the contract. It’s nice to see teams under the cap (which is typically below-.500 teams, but not always) get the first dibs on those players.
Secondly on the amnesty process
Here’s my understanding of what will happen with players who are waived under amnesty:
1) They will be on waivers for 48 hours like every other player who is waived. If they are claimed during this period of time, their new team inherits the player’s entire contract and has to pay the player the entire amount of that contract. Again, this is just like waivers for any other player
2) If the 48 hours passes and the player has not been claimed, there will be a 2nd round of waivers just for players waived under amnesty. This is the ‘bidding’ process that has gotten so much press. During this period of time, only teams under the cap can bid to claim the player. It’s a modified waiver process because instead of inheriting the entire contract, the winning team inherits only the amount that they bid, with the previous team paying the balance. For this reason, teams must bid for each and every year still remaining on the player’s contract. For example, if Roy were waived this month under amnesty, because he has 4 years remaining on his contract, any team’s bid must be for 4 years.
3) If the 2nd phase of waivers passes and there are still no claims on the player, then the amnestied player will have cleared waivers and any team can offer him a contract as an unrestricted free agent. Teams can use either cap space or exceptions to make these offers.
As far as I know, Dave is absolutely right that teams cannot use exceptions to claim players during the 2nd round of waivers (the ‘bidding’ process). If a team is $1 million under the cap, they can only bid $1 million. In fact, they would have to renounce any exceptions that they held (MLE, trade exceptions, etc.) in order to get to that point of actually being $1 million under the cap.
I hope this makes sense.
That helps a lot.
For part 2, is this expected to be a silent one-time bid, with a winner announced afterward? Or will teams be able to bid against each other in an auction system?
can a team trade its bidding rights to another team?
by cavejunctionblazer on Dec 7, 2011 1:22 AM PST up reply actions
I would think that would be allowed
However, I believe that the rules regarding BYC have changed, so it’s possible a player could be claimed in this bidding process then traded to another team.
As a for instance, let’s say that Brandon Roy is amnestied. Then let’s say, just for the sake of example, that Miami really wants Roy, and for some reason Minnesota really wants Mike Miller. Minnesota, as a team under the cap, could submit a bid that is in a range that is tradeable for Miller’s contract. Then if they had the highest bid and got Roy, they could turn around and trade him to Miami for Mike Miller. This is of course just an example and not a deal that I think is realistic based on the players and teams.
It does avoid the “get amnestied, go to Miami or LAL” situation since those teams would need to actually give something up to get the amnestied player.
by Rodney Gustafson on Dec 7, 2011 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
It's yet to be announced
what Roy’s salary for trade purposes would be. After all, in your scenario, Minnesota would be claiming Roy off of waivers. He could still carry a $15 million salary, although Minnesota would only be responsible to pay a portion of that amount. Or, as you say, his trade value could be the amount that Minnesota ‘bid’ to claim him. We’ll know when the CBA is released.
Also, there might be a waiting period for trades. After claiming a player, the previous agreement required a 60 day waiting period before he could be traded if other players were sent out with him. I’m guessing the new agreement will have the same or something similar.
So this could get interesting
Imagine a trade scenario where x players are swapped, plus cash, picks and (bidding rights to amnestied players!)
One more piece of fruit to sweeten the pie!
by cavejunctionblazer on Dec 7, 2011 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
While that's true on the 60 day wait...
The scenario I was really targetting was with the amnestied player being traded alone.
It would be similar to when Sheed was a Hawk for the blink of an eye. lol
by Rodney Gustafson on Dec 9, 2011 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
my thinking (and hope)
is that the team could make their renouncments of exceptions and cap holds contigent upon winning the bid. Presumably this could/would be sent in to the league as part of the bid. As I understand it, these same sort of “contingency” renouncements have existed in previous CBAs for other scenarios, as well as unrenouncing a previous renouncment.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Yeah, there was that kind of contingency
built into the last agreement for teams wanting to bid on restricted free agents. I think you’re right that such a provision would make sense in this case, as well.
Ken Berger @ CBS Sports.com provides a different take with the new CBA
* Player contracts can be renegotiated downward in extensions, as long as the player’s salary does not decrease by more than 40 percent. Previously, renegotiations could only increase a player’s salary, but extensions could decrease the salary. This provision closes that loophole to the extent that a player’s salary cannot drop more than 40 percent in a renegotiation and extension.
In any difference of opinion I would take Storyteller over Berger in a heart beat but the newness of this deal makes it hard to capture all the detail until the CBA is ratified and released.
This is indeed a new detail
it would seem to close the loophole that OKC utilized last year when they renegotiated Collison’s deal and extended him at the same time. By doing so, they gave him a big amount last year (called a bonus by many) while extending him for $11 million for the next 4 years.
If true, this would still allow a team under the cap to extend and renegotiate at the same time, but wouldn’t allow the major disparity of difference in salary after the two had happened as was the case in Collison’s contract – after all, he made over $13 million last year and is only on the books for a bit more than $3 million this year.
in regards to the third question
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Players seem to be calling their own shots these days. It would make no sense for a team to bid on a guy who’s gonna be unhappy with their organization and ask to be traded. I’m gonna assume that before the bidding starts teams will be in contact with that players agent to ‘feel" it out. Which is why I’m kinda skeptical of the whole process
by King Mar on Dec 6, 2011 11:57 PM PST via mobile reply actions
For many of the teams below the cap...
Getting an amnestied player on the cheap is a good deal, even if the player doesn’t want to be there.
That player will become a trade chip for in the future.
For instance, if the Wizards renounced Rashard Lewis… Nobody really wants to trade for Shard at his current salary. But don’t you think teams like the Lakers, Heat, Celtics, Mavericks would be interested in him at say $2 million per year?
by Rodney Gustafson on Dec 7, 2011 8:47 AM PST up reply actions
yeah I thought about that too
but doesn’t that kinda defeat the purpose also. The bidding is supposed to prevent those types of teams from acquiring a guy like lewis for cheap. Plus the salaries gotta match. If lewis is now making 2 mil a year what could a team like the Kings or Pacers expect to get back in return? An extremely late round pick?
yeah, thats just wrong RodGus, read all of Storyteller's comments above
if a player is amnestied, the first round of waivers allows teams under the cap to pick up that player and pay him in FULL.
the second round of waivers allows for bids by teams under the cap.
the third round allows any team to sign an amnestied player to a new contract.
so, the Lakers, Heat, Celtics, and Mavs would not have a chance to get Rashard or whomever unless they made it past the first two rounds of waivers, which is highly unlikely.
so therefore, KingMar, it doesn’t defeat the purpose of prevention since it DOES prevent teams such as the L*kers from picking up amnestied players such as Rashard Lewis.
"I was a victim of a series of accidents, as are we all."
by thankyouforblaze on Dec 7, 2011 2:36 PM PST up reply actions
It amazes me that Smell-A is going after CP3 and D12
And nobody appears to be affected by this. We have assets that would at least get somebody thinking. We should do everything we can to get those guys. Everyone outside of Aldridge, preferably Batum, and Roy (because of his contract) are up for grabs. Chris Paul for Felton and Wallace works. I would take Okafor at this point if we couldn’t get D12.
It may be a pipe dream for a Blazer fan to talk about getting these guys, and yes CP3 is a risk in the injury dept…but Good GOD, we CANNOT let Smell-A get them without a fight.
They want to go there
Nobody wants to come to Portland. You can’t force a player to sign an extension.
by JonathanPDX on Dec 7, 2011 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think we can say nobody wants to come to Portland
That used to be the general consensus among the top players in the league, but can we honestly say that now? Why would any top PG in the league NOT want to play with Aldridge? We’ve got the best fans in the league, the loudest arena, and an owner that spends money. The CBA talks may have hurt his reputation (not to mention the front office stuff), but history still shows that he’s willing to pay for good players.
Yes, we can honestly say that now.
Dwight Howard and Chris Paul don’t want to come to Portland.
Nor should they.
"I Am Mine"
When did all of the players tell you that?
Even if Dwight Howard and Chris Paul don’t want to play in Portland that does not mean that “nobody wants to come to Portland”. Two players is a rather small sample size.
Plus, from what I read, Chris Paul did want to go to Portland prior to Brandon’s injury but his incentive went away with B-Roy’s meniscus.
Who's that tromping across my bedge?
by Troll Blazer on Dec 7, 2011 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
If they believe Portland is a better option to give them a championship
then they will want to go to portland. LeBron didn’t go to Miami because it was warm or because it was a big market team, he went there because he had a better chance of a championship with two star players.
the only players who actually chase after those big media markets are overrated ballhogs like carmelo anthony.
the problem, then, is that the blazers are an unstable team
with a really iffy management situation and many question marks on the court. even though howard-aldridge-wallace would be one of the best frontcourts in the league, there’s so much instability without a GM and with a leadership that isn’t willing to make tough decisions about players like Brandon Roy.
Right, it's a little more complicated but that's the general gist of things
I’m sure that given the choice of playing with identical rosters in either Portland or Miami, the vast majority of players will pick Miami since things like weather, nightlife and income tax do matter on the fringes. However, no players were clamoring to get to LA in 06/07, and the Lakers’ best player was busy demanding to get out. Similarly, Stephon Marbury was the closest thing to a star angling his way to get to the Knicks during the Isiah Thomas era.
Players band together because they think it gives them the best chance to compete for titles, although a side effect is also show the strange emergence of cliques amongst the elite players where they overrate fellow clique members. Lebron and Wade could just have easily teamed up in Chicago with Derrick Rose (and a FAR superior supporting cast), but Derrick Rose isn’t tight with those two like Chris Bosh, which leads them to the erroneous conclusion that they’re better off in Miami with Bosh. You see the same thing with how players rate Amare and Melo. It’s baffling to me that anyone could think Amare/Melo/anyone would be on par with Lebron/Wade/Bosh, yet those two guys get accorded the same respect as Lebron/Wade.
That being said, I do have to dispute that only overrated ballhogs push to play in large media markets. Both Kobe and Shaq pushed to play in LA, and unfortunately for us, turned into two of the 15-20 most dominant players in NBA history.
kobe was drafted by LA so i don't think there was much push there
but yeah I exaggerated a little bit.
I stand by the the fact that most player go to win championships or make money, not for media coverage, big cities, or warm beaches.
Well, Kobe refused to sign with Charlotte
and supposedly demanded in back channels before the draft that they trade him to the Lakers. Obviously it’s not like LA had to trade for him, but it’s not like he had nothing to do with ending up there.
I didn't know about that.
though refusing to sign in charlotte and forcing a trade specifically to the lakers would be two wildly different things
I thought CP3
actually said he would love to play in Portland with Roy and LA, but feared they Blazers would have to trade them to get him, to which he said, whats the point?
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