Whose Knees Do You Want Back?
by Dave on Nov 10, 2011 2:00 AM PST
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PrintDave,
You keep lumping the Oden and Roy injuries together. You say the Blazers hope is in a miraculous recovery. What if you got half of your wish? You can have Roy's knees whole or Greg's. Which would you choose?
Oh wow...talk about your stumper.
The arguments for Oden would be that he's a center, a completely unique talent, and his defense/rebounding abilities give you incredible freedom to mix the rest of the roster as you see fit. You don't have to surround him with particular players with the caveat that whomever plays with him needs to be able to score a little bit. On the other hand Oden hasn't produced huge numbers even when healthy, largely due to foul trouble and his raw game. We don't yet know what the finished product will be like. Plus the Blazers would be paying him a mint on top of what they're already shelling out.
Brandon has already proven he can lead this team to victory. He's an All-NBA player, the heart of this team when whole. You cannot argue with his production or his last-second miracles. He's already bought and paid for, adding no extra expense to retain. Shooting guards (and scorers in general) are more common than dominant centers, though.
It's a tough choice, made all the tougher because of my high opinion of Roy. But I think if forced to choose I'd take the chance and select Oden. Brandon might be able to give you something even if still hobbled. Oden's condition appears to be binary. He's either playing fully or in a coat and tie. You might get more added value by taking Greg and letting Roy add where he could than the reverse. Also I think LaMarcus Aldridge can replace some of Roy's missing scoring and star power. I don't see anyone replacing what Greg could do.
This is a question that needs to be thrown to the masses, though. You can have one healthy again: Oden or Roy. Which is your choice and why? Comment below.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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I'm with you on Oden.
He is unique. Roy, not so much.
- Dirk van Boxtel, the wandering Celtic fan.
Twitter: @4Hoopz
by Kiorrik on Nov 10, 2011 2:07 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Were Roy healthy
he would be entering a prime portion of his career where he converts a higher % of clutch situations than Clyde Drexler. Brandon has better touch and feel for basketball. The real issue would be whether or not B Roy’s game could grow to involve big men at the basket, bringing out the best in Lamarcus. I think it would have, and that a healthy B Roy is irreplaceable, especially given how important converting possessions down the stretch is to winning games in the NBA.
Modern NBA teams still stay in games with D, but they HAVE to have a perimeter talent to break down the other team or they will squander it at the end. Lamarcus can’t score with two defenders on him at all times. Greg has no post game.
I’d take B Roy.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Nov 10, 2011 8:40 AM PST up reply actions
In fact, a healthy B Roy RIGHT NOW
would be the best two guard in the NBA. Perhaps not all-around, as D Wade can play some D, but definitely right there in the discussion.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Nov 10, 2011 8:44 AM PST up reply actions
Right
I’m not sure the people who are saying “scoring 2 guards are a dime a dozen” are actually looking at the crop of perimeter players out there, or understand the quality and impact of 08/09 Roy. Scoring 2 guards are a dime a dozen, but guys who do it with Roy’s efficiency, volume and passing ability are not. Only Wade rates above him. If you want to expand that out to wings, then LeBron and Durant would as well. And it’s not like anybody else is really that close. Pierce, Manu, Kevin Martin and Carmelo are a good step and a half below the top guys. So the idea that it would be easy to find a guy to fill it up like Roy could at his peak is misguided, IMO.
i keep dancing on my own.
by atomiccafe on Nov 10, 2011 3:29 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
The way I see it
there are a slew of players capable of creating their own shot off the dribble as well as Roy but there are exactly zero other players who play defense like Tim Duncan and are 7’ 280.
Maybe I just like seeing a player block a shot on on end then run the floor and drunk on some dude.
Maybe that is why I think so highly of Gerald Wallace.
Let’s say there were a hypothetical draft where wherein you could select any current player at any point in their career knowing that the player could never be injured (we are building a team here). In this draft the second center off the board is Greg Oden (unless you consider Tim Duncan a center). Of all the ball dominant players it would take the biggest of homers to draft Roy circa 2009 as a top five ball handler.
For fun, list your top ball handlers among current players.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Nov 10, 2011 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
I'll change ball handler to "play maker", as I think, while handle chops are important,
“play maker” is an evolution of turning those chops into open looks, foul shouts, and assists. That’s important scoring %. Many an NBA baller with sweet handles has come and gone with nary an effect on the league. No, one must also know how to score, draw fouls, and dish to be in the equation.
My current top 5 play makers are Dirk, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Derek Rose, and Lebron. Those guys can take over games and make your life absolutely miserable. Were B Roy 100%, he would certainly be in the discussion.
To your point, I think of Tim Duncan as a great play maker without having any sort of ball handling. He’s a throwback post player though. Very few teams try to do what San Antonio does. Z Bo should get some credit here. He’s actually a pretty crafty player in and around the post. Were Zach surrounded by great, clutch shooting as Duncan has been most of his career, he may have gottin’ his team to the WCFs.
I too, love Gerald Wallace. He has no post game though and his perimeter shooting is sub-standard. He’s basically Jerome Kersey with a less effective jump shot. No wonder the fans love the dude. But no, you run your offense AROUND Gerald and let him scrap for points. You don’t run it through him or to him unless you have no other choice.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Nov 10, 2011 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
Oden
Unless you have Jordan on your team you either need one hall of famer or two all-stars in your frontline to win a championship.
by Nick Van Excellent on Nov 10, 2011 2:11 AM PST reply actions
Six of the last 20 championships is a pretty massive exception to make without a second thought. Sure, Jordan was a brilliant talent and the greatest ever but you also have to look at throwing out similarly exceptional performances from big men who did it without any real help from the perimeter then to make it fair.
Those would be:
‘93-’94 Rox.
‘99 Spurs.
’02-’03 Spurs.
Other champions had Drexler (HOF), Ginobili (Hall of Famer) and Parker (All Star), Hamilton (All Star) Billups (borderline HOF), Pierce and Allen (HOF), Bryant (HOF). Choose to count Nowitzki as a front-line guy if you like, though I don’t think he fits the cliche. Still, the vast majority of championship teams have HOF or multiple all-star perimeter players as well.
i keep dancing on my own.
I dunno, the whole dichotomy seems pointless
I posted something about this a long time ago, but really to win a title you generally need at least one HOFer and usually another elite all star caliber player on your team, regardless of position. Given that “perimeter players” make up 60% of the positions on the court (sometimes more if you’re defining Dirk as a perimeter player), it’s just exceedingly likely that at least one of those elite players will be a “perimeter player”.
It gets even hazier when you consider that since there are only two “big man” positions you’d need those two elite players to play specifically PF and C on your team, and picking any two elite specific positions will narrow things down considerably. Say we picked SG/SF instead. Then you’re basically limited to the Jordan/Pippen teams. What about SG/C? Essentially just Kobe/Shaq. SG/PF? Duncan/Manu and Kobe/Pau only.
Really, the only reason the majority of championship teams have elite perimeter players is that championship teams have a lot of talent, and the majority of players are perimeter players, making it exceedingly difficult to assemble enough talent for a championship level team without having some of it be in the form of perimeter players.
by Royster on Nov 10, 2011 9:07 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
It takes a great deal of talent to win an NBA title. Its not at all clear to me that it has to be at any certain position.
long live the jd.
by jksnake99 on Nov 10, 2011 10:51 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That's not exactly true.
There’s still a minimum talent level required for a frontline. No one in the past 20 years has won it all without at least…
a.) One HOF’er
or
b.) Two all-stars
The Bulls had Rodman for three championships, which fits the rule. The worst frontline in the past 20 years is comprised of two former all-stars in Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant, although obviously Cartwright wasn’t playing at an all star level. That’s the only exception I could find.
You obviously need talent at all positions, but as a general rule I think it’s pretty obvious that bigs are more important.
by Nick Van Excellent on Nov 10, 2011 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
3 championships in 20 years is still 15%. All you’ve shown is that 85% of the titles won in the last 20 years had either a HOFer or two guys playing at allstar level in the front line. That’s not strong evidence at all that its required.
long live the jd.
The one exception had the greatest player of all time at SG.
You can’t win a title without an elite frontline. Jordan can apparently, but he retired so it’s a moot point.
by Nick Van Excellent on Nov 10, 2011 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
couldnt you say that almost all of the team that have won a championship
had an elite guard?
1990-isiah thomas
91-93-Jordan
94-95-Clyde Drexler
96-98-Jordan
99-no elite guards
00-02-Kobe
03-Tony Parker
04-Chauncey
05-Tony Parker
06-Dwayne Wade
07-Parker/Manu
08-Ray Allen
09-10-Kobe
11-kidd
No im not saying that this is true, but im saying this seems to be your logic and its more true with guards or wings than with centers or big men (or more correctly, just as true).
Ultimately you need to have a good team top to bottom to win a championship. You need to have players who work together. You need to have some sort of a system. You have to have talent, regardless of where that talent is (in terms of position). The detroit pistons are the best example of this, they might not have had the powerhouse of shaq or kobe, but they had 5 players who meshed well together and a system that pushed their strengths.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
As a nitpick
The 94 Rockets didn’t have Drexler, Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell were their starting backcourt. Also, the 2003 Spurs and 2011 Mavs demonstrate why I hate some of these exercises. Neither 2003 Tony Parker nor 2011 Jason Kidd were anywhere near what their overall career reputations suggest. Both were somewhat above average at best and terrible at worst in their respective playoff runs.
2011 Jason Kidd was brilliant
in the playoffs. I’m sorry, but he stepped up against us, and then was able to shut down Lebron for stretches on D in the Miami series, the only two series where it went over 5 games. He may have only been above average in the stat lines, but he was absolutely brilliant and like any good point guard, knew when to let his teammates shine.
by avalancheman on Nov 11, 2011 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
'98-'99 Spurs are an exception that proves the point
Their biggest stars were obviously the two big men, though I guess you could consider Sean Elliott a borderline star (he didn’t make the All-Star game until ’93).
And really, how many times did one team have two big men of this caliber? As you say, it’s extremely rare. Even when the Rockets had their own twin towers, they got snake-bit by Sampson’s injuries. It just doesn’t happen very often.
Also, if your top two players are too similar to each other, it might not work very well. To some extent, we saw that last year with Miami, where either Wade and LBJ can’t dominate the ball at the same time. The same thing would happen if, say, Ewing and Shaq played on the same team: they’re just too similar. Of course, this isn’t an absolute – Miami might very well still win a championship, and you could argue that Jordan and Pippen were both swingmen, but it just makes the (rare enough) PF/C combo less likely to be successful.
Right, I didn't mean to imply that there were no PF/C combos
just that it gets tricky when you limit things to any 2 specific positions, and it gets further complicated by the fact that the team almost always extends past those two players to include at least one borderline all star as either a big/perimeter player (whichever may be missing from the top pairing) like Rodman and Horace Grant with Jordan/Pippen, or Elliott with Duncan/Robinson.
Oden
.
The Blazers are the 'big brother' in this relationship
The little brother gets a new toy (all star) and the big brother has to go break it.
-----KFBR392
Yep, Oden
I won’t say its a no-brainer, because a healthy Roy brings a lot to the table, including, most significantly, that rare ability to take over a game, put a team on his back and will his team to a win.
But Roy’s game really requires certain types of players around him. It isn’t very adaptable as we saw when the Blazers signed Andre Miller. Oden, however, could shine with a wide variety of styles around him.
But if the only change is you get one of those guys healthy, and the rest of the roster remains the same, I’d take Oden.
Roy
"Im ready for a fight..." -Joel Przybilla
by KillaPrzydollaBILLA on Nov 10, 2011 2:31 AM PST reply actions
I would have liked this question to be made in a diferent way. It sounds horrible to say whose knees I prefer to be healthy.
I think Oden is a more of a player to build upon. Oden has potential to be as much good offensively as Roy, and he can be a unique presence in defense, specially providing interior help defense and rebounding. Roy´s defense gives too much away, and he won´t get better. The second more important question about Oden is whether he wants to remain in Portland or not, and whether the new collective bargaining agreement will help to keep him here.
Oden
If he could be the player that he was before going out in the Houston game, we would be a force to reckon with.
easy
I’ll take Roy. It’s not just Greg’s knees that I’m skeptical of. I also question his sincerity, his dedication, his work ethic and that’s just off the court. On the court he’s still very raw, he hasn’t proven anything yet outside of a handful of so-so games, and he hasn’t played in years. Gimme Roy all day long
by King Mar on Nov 10, 2011 3:33 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I'd take roy
not because i don’t like oden, but because he is the proven player here.
by chimpy_x on Nov 10, 2011 3:35 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
I’m inclined to go with a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. Oden when healthy has looked good. Maybe even really good. But a healthy Broy can single handedly destroy teams. If Lamarcus is as good as he was last year, we ALREADY HAVE a dominant post player. Sure he’s not the best player on the team, but he’s easily a top 5 power forward in the NBA.
Roy
Putting a LaMarcus of this last year together with a healthy Roy equals possible championship. A healthy Roy would have changed that entire year. Tell me a scenario where Oden pulls off a game 4 against Dallas. I would like to hear that story because Oden would have robot hands.
Oden is simply an unknown. I happen to think he could be quite good. But 25 minutes a game is not going to get it done. Even a healthy Oden was still not championship material without a backcourt and 4 extra fouls to give. Maybe he could have “grown.” wink wink.
But we know this about Brandon Roy. He knows how to win, and he can take over a game. We already know B and L work well together. O & L is an unknown.
In conclusion: (LaMarcus + Brandon) > (LaMarcus + Oden)
Geriatric Dunk Squad!
1/4/10 - Juwan Howard dunks on Chris Kaman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkOqDgLb6s
3/7/10 - Andre Miller Tomahawk jams on the Denver Nuggets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-JVgm7F1QA
4/12/10 - Marcus Camby drops 30 and 13 on OKC to cement 50 wins. http://www.nba.com/blazers/media/camby_chant_041310.mp3
by Eat Politicians on Nov 10, 2011 3:35 AM PST reply actions
Not that Oden could have scored that 4 point play
But if Oden was healthy against Dallas they would have had to put Chandler on him. That would have meant Dirk would have had to guard Aldridge.
Aldridge would have put up Malone-like numbers against Dirk, and Dirk would have probably struggled a bit more offensively if he would have had to play some defense.
Who knows how it all would have played out, but Portland lost those 4 games to Dallas by an average of 9.5 points. I recall reading that Portland were +10 per 48 with Oden playing, so maybe a healthy Oden would have been enough.
besides
Oden’s knees have a chance to heal all on its own. Roy’s gonna need the miracle.
by King Mar on Nov 10, 2011 3:41 AM PST via mobile reply actions 3 recs
great point
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Nov 10, 2011 9:38 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
The hypothetical
is whose knees do you wish could be healed. Not which knees might heal. That being said; Oden, Oden a thousand times Oden. Game 4 would not have been necessary if you have a practiced 14 8 and 2 blocks 5 that gets a bit of superstar benefit in the middle.
by Pop Winnder on Nov 10, 2011 4:15 AM PST via mobile reply actions
I agree with Eat Politicians
Roy definitely. I know that Oden has the potential to be a great center but Roy allready has played at Allstar level. When Oden played he was slow and foul prone. I dont think he would ever be able to make as big of an impact that Roy has made numerous times. Roy is clutch.
Oden
He’s shown that the only thing holding him back from being dominant and controlling the paint is his health. Control the paint, control the game.
This shouldn't be treated as such a hypothetical
by blazer fans. All indications from the lockout are the blazers will decide to cut one of them free, and in all likelihood commit to the other.
With that assumption in hand, I would go with Oden, hands down. We have seen Roy on bad knees. There is no treatment or therapy to fix Roy’s knees. Between the two, Oden still has the potential to have a far bigger impact on the franchise. Its an emotional decision, but a very necessary one.
Roy
I would love to see Oden play and he might dominate if his body would let him. But I’ve seen Roy and if we are talking about going forward right now with a blossoming Aldridge, Batum, and a healthy Roy, I would build around that. Roll Camby out at center for one more season, sign Pendy, and turn Wallace and pieces into a BMOTF (Big Man).
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Oden
True 7 foot big men with that kind of talent are just so ridiculously rare. Roy is/was as good as having Joe Johnson without the boneheaded decisions, a more reliable Stephen Jackson, an offense-only Wade or Kobe… but would he be HOF-worthy with no championships but perfect knees? I don’t think he ever had the defense, not that he was actually actively lacking in that department before he lost his knees… Oden when healthy and fully developed has the potential to make Dwight Howard look like a good, undersized center. A two 7 footer front court can do things (see Dallas playoffs 2011). Even Aldridge was honestly held back a bit by Roy’s offensive work. All that said, I don’t think either is worth keeping hobbled the way they are and a reliable, if slightly overpaid, alternative for either would be a juicy trade option if it cost us little outside of them alone.
Oden
7’ 280lb agile bigs are much harder to find than 6’6" guards. I’d love both. But one is much harder to replace.
My favorite teams are the Blazers and any team that is playing the Lakers.
Oden
Roy is eligible for a hero’s eulogy, Oden is eligible for most disappointing player ever. I’d like to see Oden get a shot at redemption.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Nov 10, 2011 7:25 AM PST via mobile reply actions
This isn't even a question in my mind.
Given the choice, you take Oden every time. Every single time. Heck that is why he is a Blazer and Kevin Durant isn’t. I think the posters who keep harping on Oden’s fouls are making a mountain out of a molehill. Yes he did foul a lot. He hasn’t had anywhere near the practice time or experience. But when he was on the court, he was a force. Every team had to take him into account and adjust their games. That means his presence alone took every other team out of their confort zone. Roy, as good as he has been, does not have that kind of effect on a game or on another team the same way an admittedly raw Oden does. Give Oden a little more experience and polish and you are looking at player reminiscent of Dwight Howard. (Look how long it took Dwight to get his offensive game dialed in.) (I am not saying Oden would be the equal of Howard, but reminiscent of him.)
You cannot tell me that Oden with Aldridge, Crash/Batum, Matthews, and Felton (or one of the other one million guards on the team) would be less effective than Aldridge, Roy, Camby, Batum/Crash and Felton. Well I guess you can tell me that. I just won’t agree.
To me this is a simple choice. However, if I were given three wishes by some fancy basketball genie, my first wish is a healthy Brandon Roy, second wish a healthy Greg Oden, and third wish is continued health for all Blazers. But give only one wish, I would still have to say that Oden is the best investment of my one wish.
by BlazerFanFromDenver on Nov 10, 2011 7:30 AM PST reply actions
but isn't that sort of the point?
Believing the ability of a big man to inherently make a greater impact than a wing is how we ignored the best statistical prospect in the last 20 years. And now he’s proving that you can have darn near a contending team with a highly efficient 30 usage wing, a couple other decent to excellent guards, and sort of a hodge-podge of defensively oriented vets and young guys comprising the big man rotation. The conventional wisdom that you need a dominant center to win is foolish and not demonstrated by evidence. You need great players.
i keep dancing on my own.
by atomiccafe on Nov 10, 2011 7:41 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Wow I thought we had detonated this myth by now
First, I obviously have to assume that both guys come back to 100%. Top performing Oden is better than 80% Roy.
That said, this continued insistence that an elite center is somehow a lot more important than an elite wing is a weird sort of collective failure to observe in the BE community. Who was the best center in the NBA’s final four last year? Joakim Noah? The guy is practically a power forward. Tyson Chandler played well, but guys like him are available to a team that’s willing to pay pretty much every year.
So I choose to ignore the idea that there is a significant value simply in Oden’s massive physique. I’ll choose the player who is more dominant at his position. And there’s no doubt Roy has proven he can be more dominant at his position. His ‘08/’09 season would probably make him about the 2nd best 2-guard in the NBA right now. Oden has never had a full elite season, and has also yet to demonstrate he can get his foul issues under control (he has fouled his entire career significantly more than say young Yao or young Shaq). Given Roy’s certain ceiling as a top 10 player who can give you 36+ mpg (when healthy :)), I have to take him.
i keep dancing on my own.
I think that there is value in having an impact player in the middle versus the perimeter
Regardless of what the NBA has turned into and how few true impact centers there are anymore. They change the complexion of games in ways perimeter players can not. They force the opposing team to take a different, more jumpshot heavy approach on offense and collapse defenses virtually at will. I also have to imagine that between blocks and rebounds, they create more extra possessions for their team than even a steal happy wing. Even though recent history may not bear it out, I believe that there are more significant positive ripple effects from having a dominant big versus a dominant perimeter player. It really depends on the team as a whole though. Having a big like that is awesome, but if you don’t have a guy on the perimeter that you can give the ball to as well then it usually isn’t enough to get it done
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Nov 10, 2011 9:49 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
This debate reminds me greatly of the Oden/Durant debate.
My head tells me Oden. My heart tells me Roy.
by Jeremy Wonderly on Nov 10, 2011 7:38 AM PST reply actions
I'd like to propose a band of 49-51% of the knees go to Greg.
Hard question. Roy is proven. Greg could be a game changer on both ends. Since it’s a dream anyway, why not go big?
Oden has never been healthy.
Roy will never be healthy again.
Wow. We have to pick one of these guys?
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Nov 10, 2011 8:18 AM PST reply actions
Hypothetically speaking:
If you could read a website that was able to frame a conversation without impossible revisionist situations, would you respect it more often?
dinasour type of guys choir boys
and that's why my scenerio involves a time machine.
This is our fantasy, so why ask for a knee when we can shoot for the moon?
Let’s go back in time and draft Jordan, Chris Paul, and Kevin Durant!
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Nov 10, 2011 8:26 AM PST up reply actions
Also,
given that we HAVE a freaking time machine (thanks for letting us borrow props from your BTTF museum from 2024, Paul!), we can get all three on the court together—in their respective primes, with Rasheed Wallace and Sabas circa 1986 rounding out our starting 5!
That team would be pretty good…
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Nov 10, 2011 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
If I had a time machine, I wouldn't waste it on bball foolishness
I’d be going back in time to either battle hitler or find an arcade that still had moon patrol and burger time.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
by mittsabishy on Nov 10, 2011 9:51 AM PST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
I haven't been in PDX for three years now,
but Ground Kontrol in the pearl had both Moon Patrol and Burgertime last time I was there.
B-Roy
He has proven heart – GO – Not yet, maybe never.
Here is why:
http://www.blazersedge.com/2011/4/24/2126431/best-roy-moment
Roy
And its not even close. Roy has the heart of a champion and he has that it factor that it takes to win. Oden’s spirit is broken and he may never recover from his emotional injuries.
by PortlandPhil on Nov 10, 2011 8:37 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, last I heard he's stopped working out and has ballooned to over 300lbs.
No, wait, that’s not right. Last I heard he continues to work hard and his weight is good. But that shows he’s got a broken spirit?
But I don’t know the man.
Roy is a no-brainer
…. because his knees are irreparable while Oden is just generally injury prone. You give Roy his knees back and you have a top 3 SG for a few years (and have a team capable of 55 wins per year as long as they’re able to replace Camby) Give Greg his knees back and he’d still get injured – even if it’s something other than his knees. He’s just injury prone.
So I’d use the new knees on the guy who actually needs them and would actually deliver. Sure, Roy could go down again, but when he had menisci, his track record was a lot better than Oden’s.
Trick or Treat...
This is an evil question. Should of had this post on Halloween.
I suppose when The Blazers had the opportunity to draft Oden, I listened to the best of the hype about Oden that was present at the time. The feeling was that Oden was going to be a league leading, franchise quality center. Potentially one of the best centers of his time. That was the hope I had for Oden and for The Blazers. I was hoping we had an All-Star center for a decade on our roster.
For various reasons that simply hasn’t been allowed to be the reality.
When The Blazers drafted Brandon? I was worried. Brandon had already had knee surgery in college. In some circles his knee was considered the reason he fell in the draft. I was happy we drafted Aldridge, and cautiously hopeful that Brandon would work out.
Brandon exceeded my expectations.
So here is the difference. Oden was the expected All-Star, that almost immediately hasn’t been able to be an All-Star. Brandon was the unexpected All-Star that almost immediately WAS an All-Star. Both in similar situations today…but both arriving at this place in very different ways.
This is an evil question, because I love Brandon Roy. I think unfortunately fans are already forgetting how great this guy was. I can’t say Brandon was at his best, the most physically gifted Blazer I have ever witnessed, BUT I would say Brandon is one of the fiercest competitors I ever witnessed, one of the most clutch Blazer players, and a player that wanted and accepted the mantle of leadership, and I think handled it well. I have no doubt, that with healthy knees, Brandon would of created a career that would leave his name easily along side historic Blazer greats. That’s how convinced I was of Brandons talent.
What can you say about Oden? His tenure in Portland almost immediately became disappointing. It’s almost too painful to rehash the timeline and details of his time here. So I’m not going to do it.
However, I do think we saw a stretch, before his patella injury, where he was coming into his own. During that short stretch Oden was dominating…amazing.
So given a (Old Mans Reference)-Sophies Choice…who would I take?
Almost impossible to answer. I believe a healthy Brandon Roy is a 8 time All-Star. I think he leads the team, and brings a lot of success with him to the table. As Kobe and Dwayne Wade age? I think Brandon emerges as one of the best 2 guards in the league. I think Brandon is a great teammate and I think he grows and learns how to make those around him better….How do you say No to that?
On the other side? A healthy Oden isn’t just succesful within the league, or on the team, I think a 100% Oden is a Shaq like player that can actually impact the league from the standpoint of how the game is played. Oden with no physical frailities? Is that type of dominating center. He’s not just a good player on the court…he’s the type of player that opposing teams circle in red in scouting reports. He’s an abandon all hope Ye who would try to guard him in the paint type of center. How do you say No to that?
So….guess what? I’m taking my ball and going home on this one. I’m not playing your evil game. I’m not going Trick or Treat on this one. I’m saying Treat or Treat. I want BOTH. I want Brandon as the emotional and player captain of this team. Setting up teammates and winning close games. AND I want Oden as the dominating beast in the middle, striking fear into opponents. --I don’t want to play Highlander…There can be only one!…
I think collectively, it’s been a tough situation with both players, why should I taunt the wounds? Why should I speculate that I can only have one? The reality with each of them will play out as the reality. If I’m going to dream? I’m going to dream BIG. And personally, I think a healthy Brandon, Aldridge and Oden…would of dominated the league for a decade…so I say, I want both.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
by Krang on Nov 10, 2011 9:06 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Sing with me now...
I beg your pardon,
that’s what we were promised in the Rose Garden.
All clear skies and sunshine,
We were supposed to be champs by this time.
instrumental break
I beg your pardon,
that’s what we were promised in the Rose Garden.
Who's that tromping across my bedge?
by Troll Blazer on Nov 10, 2011 2:56 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno
My gut feeling would be to go with Greg, simply because he was considered a much more elite prospect than Roy and never got a chance to develop, but I think that answers a different question. Going forward from this point, though, I think I say Roy. I’m not convinced that any lingering confidence issues/lost development time over the past 3 years don’t negate Oden’s initial value as a prospect, while Roy has at least proven he is an elite contributor.
Now, if you ask me which one I’d prefer to be completely injury-free for the rest of his career after the 2008 season, even knowing what I know now about how amazing Roy was that season, I think Oden is a no brainer.
IMO, all we are doing is rehashing the Greg-Durant controversy
It is those that think BRoy’s shooting is more important; it is those that thinks Greg dominance is more important.
The time of the Greg-Durant Draft, I knew ( and still limited) very little about the importance of each player on a team; it was said countless of times by posters on this sight, by the sports media, by owners and by fans in general that Kevin could win many of games with his talent, and talent wasn’t the question. Greg can win a championship by just being a dominate center.
That, IMO, is the choice between Greg and BRoy. If you read my posts of the past. you will know I am full support of BRoy and Greg, but if it was a choice between one of the two with completely healthy knees, I would take Greg in a flash,
That is partly true, because we have already gone past BRoy with talent, We have Batum, Wesley, Wallace, LMA and so on. But we haven’t replaced Greg in the center too well beings as how Camby is as injury prone as Greg. Maybe, LMA can take both Greg’s dominance, but it would be rough on him. Besides all that, I have thought of Greg and LMA’s high low post game so much that alone would make me vote for Greg.
hg
by BBK on Nov 10, 2011 9:37 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Not sure new knees would be enough to keep Oden on the floor,
better throw in ankles and hips as well. Maybe back too.
I recently watched Oden's play in the March Madness he participated in
The hype about him was centered mainly on his comparative size and his agility amongst a much younger, possibly not yet physically developed competition. This is what I see as the reason he was the first pick. However, the pure desire to perform at an optimum level just wasn’t there. Watching the footage makes it pretty clear.
Roy has that desire and the intelligence to play smart. He lacks the physical prowess and athleticism that Oden has. He’s so smart and otherwise talented, however, that his lack of size/athleticism could be considered a non-issue.
The two seem very incomparable except for the fact that their knees are not well. Two very different positions, different abilities, different attitudes, are trying to be compared and answered in this question.
I just don’t think this is a valid question to be asked. Either one back in good health would be good enough for me.
Depends.. if Oden stayed healthy AND lived up to his potential
Then Oden, no contest. But he’s still a bit unproven, he showed signs of greatness when he was on the court, but he hasn’t played enough to know what he’d do fully healthy w/ some NBA experience. If I had to take the risk of Oden not living up to his full potential aswell, I’d probably choose Roy.
Oden.
Roy qualifies for a national memorial service, a celebration of life. Oden qualifies as the most disappointing mammal to have walked the earth since the Triassic Period.
Easy choice -- Roy
He’s shown that, when healthy, he is a top-10 talent who makes teammates better and performs as well as anyone in clutch situations. Oden hasn’t shown enough.
He's shown us that he can lead us to a first round playoff exit.
And the same can be said for a great number of players. You have to go with Oden on this one. Aside from the Jordan-era Bulls, which are an anomaly, It takes a great center to lead a team to a title.
Tyson Chandler was a “great center?”
Kendrick Perkins was a “great center?”
i keep dancing on my own.
Very well, an "elite big man".
Kevin Garnett and Dirk Nowitzki aren’t centers in the traditional sense but have center size and occasionally function in that role for their clubs. If LaMarcus Aldridge can make the transition from very good to elite (as in, 1st/2nd-team all NBA and perennial all-star), it might be enough to offset our lack of a true great center.
But Dirk Nowitzki does none of the things that supposedly make centers irreplaceable. He is above average and no better on interior help/man defense, scores from the post only in extremely favorable matchups, and is not a monster on the glass (though he is quite good).
i keep dancing on my own.
Tyson Chandler was pretty solid in those exact areas last year
aside from scoring in the post, which I think Dirk does more than you’re giving him credit for with his phenomenal face-up game.
I think we’re getting too caught up in positions…there isn’t a definitive recipe for building a championship team. One way or another, you just have to be really really good. That usually involves elite players. That being said, I do maintain that an elite center is more impactful than an elite wing when viewed in a vacuum. I think you can look at Dwight Howard and Kevin Durant as good present day examples…I’d be more inclined to build a team around Howard than Durant if I had to choose.
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Nov 10, 2011 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
That’s fair to say. I think Howard is a better player than Durant. He is nearly as effective on offense, and does more on defense. But I would take LeBron over Howard easily, obviously, and Wade possibly as well. I just don’t see any evidence for the positional discrimination stuff.
i keep dancing on my own.
by atomiccafe on Nov 10, 2011 12:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
centers were more valuable back in the day
before the establishment of the 3pt line. Good defensive centers are valuable in championship level team because its easier to have them ANCHOR a defense. By the time you get to the finals, you usually find that both teams are capable of elite offense, its the team that defends better that walks away with victory. The blazers i think have good defending wings and great offensive players who can attack in varied ways even without Roy. However they dont have a Defensive Anchor. If you go back and look at every team thats won a championship, there has always been a defensive center thats an anchor. Even the bulls of the 90s had a wall of a player in Luke Longley whos job was to just make the right rotations on defense allowing the better wing defenders and rodman to provide the defensive finishes.
Oden would be a nice championship center because he can anchor a defense and at the same time cant be left unchecked on offense. Even if he never goes down as being a top 5 center on his own accord, he can help propel a team like the blazers to a contender just by being a good wall on defense allowing wallace, batum and even matthews to use their athleticism to disrupt plays.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Yet
He still operated primarily from a post position (admittedly the high post instead of the low), and was essentially unguardable, mainly due to his size. It’s really somewhat of a stretch to say your arguments qualify him as automatically not a big man. Certainly he proved you didn’t need a big man dominant at both ends of the floor to win a title, but didn’t we already see that with Rodman, Ben Wallace and Shaq(to an extent, given that he was only intermittently dominant defensively)?
If anything, it reminds me of the “you absolutely need an elite big man” group arguing that Jordan should be considered the Bulls’ “big man” during the second threepeat because he primarily posted guys up on offense.
That’s a fair criticism. I think ultimately the lesson is (1) you probably need two great players to win a championship (2) two great perimeter players or two great big players are more likely to duplicate each other’s skills than be additive, so it’s more likely that you’ll have one of each (3) 20 or so champions is not a lot of data to look at :).
I also don’t see any real evidence that a championship-caliber big is more scarce than a championship level guard.
i keep dancing on my own.
since we are including PFs in this discussion of bigs vs. guards and PF is arguably the most stacked position in the NBA. Look at all the guys who LMA was fighting with for an ASG slot.
i keep dancing on my own.
The issue with equating PFs with Centers is the that many elite PFs match up horribly against an elite center.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Nov 10, 2011 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
Totally agree on all points
I do think positions tend to go through phases. Right now we’re entering an era with a ton of dominant PF and PGs and leaving one largely dominated by SGs.
Although my impression does seem to be that a decent number of guys who would have been forced to play center in previous years are now being recast as PFs, somewhat diluting the center talent pool while inflating the PF one. LaMarcus is essentially the exact same size as Tim Duncan (center in all but name), Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Robert Parish, et al. If he had been born 10 years earlier, I don’t see how his coaches don’t make him a center.
gah, sorry to kill this dead
but the point of the pro-Oden argument here is that there is something unique about Oden that is nearly uncapturable by a combination of like a great offensive PF and a serviceable defensive center. That is the only possible way to read the argument that peak Oden is less replaceable than peak Roy. Because there are a lot of great offensive PF/Cs:
Bosh (yes, him, in the right situation)
Stat
Blake Griffin
Z-Bo
LMA
etc. etc. Pair one of those guys with a Tyson Chandler or Emeka Okafor, guys who can definitely be had for the right price, and you have what looks like a good front line that is definitely no scarcer than a Roy-level 2 guard (there was a big gap behind Wade, Kobe and Roy when Roy had his great season, not sure about now).
i keep dancing on my own.
Well, as I said above
if the only reason you take Oden is because it’s harder to find a defensive center than an elite SG, I think that reasoning is dead wrong. The reasoning to take Oden would be that he was considered an absolutely amazing prospect compared to Roy and he was indeed dominant even in a terribly raw state at the start the the 09/10 season, the one time where he’d had an extended time to play basketball injury-free (counting the end of the previous season and offseason).
If he were to never progress from that I still wouldn’t take him over 2008/2009 Roy, given the foul trouble, but the potential for progression along with the age difference makes it an argument, at least.
If we keep rosters exactly the same otherwise, you have to pick Oden.
Wesley Matthews does a decent job on the Perimeter and we have plenty of options on the wings, but as far as centers go, there is a massive hole in our roster that needs filling. Our team could make space for Roy, but right now I don’t see how he fits in the roster.
by YoniRap on Nov 10, 2011 10:30 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Surely you jest...
This cannot be a serious question. But then, what else is there to talk about? Let’s assume that one doesn’t look at both player’s injury history and their future prognosis for staying healthy. Then ask any team in the NBA which option they’d choose. I’d be surprised if anyone would say Roy.
by kuhnsmith on Nov 10, 2011 10:43 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Sabonis' knees
Then the Blazers would be more than a one-time champion.
by Norsktroll on Nov 10, 2011 10:46 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Oden
seems like a once in an era type.
Hey, 100% Oden vs. Dwight Howard. Not putting my money on either, just sit back and enjoy the battle!
A healthy Roy was a top 10 player in the NBA and could give you 40 mpg. A healthy Oden was still only a 25 mpg guy who was very good but not top 10 in terms of impact— and he’d only played at that level for 20 games. There’s certainly a chance Oden could have solved the foul trouble problem and become better than Roy ever was— and its still somewhat possible— but I’ll cast my lot with the guy I know was an all-NBA caliber performer and could log major minutes.
long live the jd.
by jksnake99 on Nov 10, 2011 10:54 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Roy hands down
We’ve seen what Roy can do when he’s healthy (All NBA caliber 2 guard). Heck, he beat the NBA champs on no knees. Oden had some nice moments, but between the fouls issues and lack of offensive game, I take Roy in a heartbeat and look for a defensive minded center (Pryz/Camby type) to complement Aldridge.
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
Roy
He was unbelievable to watch, you could always count on him to want to take the big shot and hit it. Oh, how I miss the crossovers.
#52
How would both rank at their position?
BRoy at his best would be #3, behind Wade and Kobe, with many very good shooting guards behind him.
Oden would be #1 or a very close #2, with a larger skill level separation to the next tier of centers.
I got to go with the harder get, center, Oden.
did dwight howard die
andrew bogut is probably more productive than oden has shown, al horford might really be a power forward but he plays and has always played center and hes really good as well. Oden can be very good, but theres no real evidence that he is. Perhaps if he was never injured, he would easily be number 2 (dwight is just in a league of his own) but if hes coming off an injury, even if 100% healthy, it will take his mind time to realize his new limits and until then he wont reach his potential. And Although he is still young theres a good chance he never mentally pushes himself because of the way his career started.
Still i think Oden would be the guy you should want back. The reason i say this is because, while Brandon Roy is phenomonal (out of the current crop of top 5 sgs, he is my favorite) he has always been a bit lacking defensively, and his game takes a bit away from your other start L.A.
Oden at his worst is still a solid defensive player and rebounder, and thats a hellava lot better to matchup around LA, not to mention oden is younger than Roy so he can serve purposes for a longer period of time. Felton is known for being a heady player who can shine in clutch moments, you have Batum and Wallace both great defensively (wallace is my favorite small forward in the league) and batum has the ability to be a solid offensive player (while wallace is simply fearless in attacking the rim and incredibly smart), L.A. is a consistent offensive force, possibly more potent than even bosh though given less credit, and Wesley Matthews was a sleeper sg that most teams wish they had picked up. Although Mattews may not be as offensively potent as Roy, he has a good array of scoring skills, especially from long range, and has good size and athleticism to finish. I’d say hes a better defender than Roy as well.
to me oden completes your team (if he has healthy knees) while Roy gives you a better version of what you already have (scoring) Oden gives you something you lack (Post Defensive dominance). The best offensive teams will struggle when they have to go through the wall that is oden coupled with the athleticism and defensiveness of wallace and batum on the wings. And aldridge can conserve energy to bang inside more on offense.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 10, 2011 11:56 AM PST up reply actions
I'd take healthy Oden over any center not named Dwight Howard
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
by sammymohawk on Nov 10, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
thats fine
but just because you would take him over any other center, doesnt automatically make him better than any other center. Oden can lead to championships without being a star individually///
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
my choice of Oden
is based on the intangible benefits that he brings to table as well as the tangible ones. I never said he was “better” than anyone, but “better” is itself a subjective term.
"If I had a dime for every basket I made today, you'd still suck!" - from the book 'John Dies @ the End'
i was just reaffirming my point
not saying you were wrong….
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
You can't say Al Horford is a better center than Oden after watching Ohio State vs. University of Florida.
The most effective defender on Oden in that game was the 6’8" Joey Dorsey. Oden is dominant. Dwight Howard and Andrew Bogut are the only players that could even theoretically match up against Oden.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Nov 10, 2011 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
yes i can
because one has had a successful career thus far and the other one has spent most of his nba career on the bench. I acknowledge that oden has the potential to be better, but dont make it seem like that his ONLY weakness was his knees. Oden was extremely raw, and if his knees heal he will still have a ways to go mentally to catch up to other centers. I dont just mean experience, i mean the confidence to play knowing you had a horrible past injury, the ability to adapt to the speed of the game, and learning the limit of your physical abilities and adapting your skills to makeup for them. These things arent easy.
Many centers come into the league being physically capable but just never clicking mentally, and most of them dont have the fear of a previous injury that almost ended their career. Al horford has been an all star, the version of Al Horford that exists today could easily destroy college version of oden. And honestly, oden right now isnt that much better than his college counterpart, even if he had two good knees. Horfords been incredibly successful at the nba level playing out of position, hes physique right now is probably just as great as odens was in college, and he certainly has the mental edge.
Again im not saying oden cant surpass them, but even though the center position is extremely shallow, u guys are selling alot of these solid nba centers short. Oden has a ways to go to catch up to these guys mentally and even physically (he wont know exactly what his new physical limitations are).
The hypotetical situation right now being presented is if Oden or Roy, one of the two were to fully heal, its not presenting a “What if they never were injured” situation. if it was the latter then its more likely oden would be the second best center (dwights just a freak of nature, more so than oden).
Also as i stated above, even if oden isnt the 2nd or even 3rd best center in the league, if hes healthy, even at his worst i think he would be a much better fit for your team, because at his worst hes still a very good rebounder and defensive player
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Easy answer: Oden
Because talented 7-footers are much more difficult to replace than talented 6’5 SGs
Greg’s other knee is sound after having a similar surgery in ’07. OTOH, there is no know known surgical procedure to replace the meniscus re: a pro athlete
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
hey, I was wondering where two4 was lateley
feeling like the season may be starting, perhaps ?
I would also prefer Oden so I don’t have to watch more Nate/Roy iso ball.
Wake me when the game is on.
It would be nice if the season would start soon
but I’m not holding my breath
I’ve found some other pursuits to fill up my BE time, but (never fear) I’ll still stop by to insert snarky comments, from time to time…
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
My take
is almost the exact opposite of Daves. Not to be ornery just is. To me Roy displayed bad character in public comments over and over again with his me first attitude and it made me not like him as much, although I’d still root for him. I’d take Roy over Oden as I think he is a rare talent that has the magic of clutch. Oden is big but not very talented. If he were half of a Walton or Olajuwon or Jabbar or Chamberlain then that would be different. He is not a top notch talent and never will be. Roy may not be Jordan or Bryant or even Clyde but he’s way up there. Roy FTW
Roy
He’s proven and has that “it” factor. Plus as others have pointed out, Oden’s knees still have a chance to heal on their own. I would take a 100% Roy along with a 60% Oden over 100% Oden and 60% Roy.
The smarter you are, the more likely you are to be tripping balls at any given moment.
Bring Back Dre.
Oden but...
that’s assuming we’d have him for more than 1 year. Oden completely dominated Noah and Horford in the 2007 NCAA championship game. Noah and Horford would be one of the if not the best starting front courts in the NBA and Oden was a one man wrecking crew against them.
Red means run, son, numbers add up to nothin
Oden
He was the #1 pick for a reason. He is a beast. However, as another posted, the other parts of his body aren’t protected under this “what if” scenario. Still, I am picking Greeeg semi depressed Ooden.
Great question Dave!!
I would love to see this as a POLL. I say Roy, just due to his commitment.
I'll vote for Roy down here where no one can see.
Oden:
Raw potential.
- Potential game changer
- Potential Shaq
- Potential defensive giant
- potential potential
- Potentially may leave portland for fame.
Roy:
Proven Talent with potential.
Strong defense when he locks down
Flexible penetration
Desire to play within the team (despite the jokes of sarcastic selfish that people soon thought were real critiques)
Intelligent
Proved a desire to stay in portland
Killer instinct (seriously… try to buy that)
clutch
A healthy Roy wouldn’t have to hold back but could push his athleticism.
Oden could definitely be a game changer and at his best could beat down on Roy… but a healthy Roy… Batum… Aldridge…
It’s incredibly tough so I use the fact that Oden doesn’t seem to love the game like Roy, might leave us because he feels unloved and reads posts like mine (although you are loved Greg… just need to see the potential and all is forgotten… not that we really blame you anyway. Can’t control stupid crazy crud.), and hasn’t gotten over the foul issues.
I’m probably wrong, but maybe not. I know Roy would be an amazing superstar WITH the Killer instinct. I just don’t know about Oden.
"The game was delayed for over 15 minutes with 5:07 left in the second quarter after France's Nicolas Batum, who plays for the Portland Trail Blazers, dunked and twisted the rim. Volunteers and officials scrambled to put a new rim on the basket and reattach a net."
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/olybb/news/story?id=5509394
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