NBA Labor Talks Break Down Friday; All November Games Cancelled
Chris Broussard of ESPN.com reports that labor negotiations between the NBA and the National Basketball Players Association have broken down again on Friday...
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Talks between the players & owners just ended. Split of BRI is still the issue. Neither side budging. Players still at 52, owners at 50. David Stern will announce cancellation of more games this evening, sources said.
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The NBA announced on Friday that all November games have now been cancelled.
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The NBA announced today that it has canceled all games through November 30 because a new collective bargaining agreement has not been reached with the National Basketball Players Association.
"We share the frustrations of our fans, partners, and those who rely on our game for their livelihoods," NBA Deputy Commissioner Adam Silver said. "We remain committed to reaching an agreement that's fair for both the teams and the players and allows for the long-term growth of our game."
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NBA commissioner David Stern offered this comment.
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"Right now, our games are cancelled through Nov. 30. To the end of the month of November. It's not practical, possible or prudent to have a full [82-game] season now. We held out that joint hope together, but in light of the breakdown of talks there will not be a full NBA season under any circumstances."
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Here's video of Stern's comments.
A report on Monday indicated that Stern's cancellation was coming on Tuesday, but the two sides re-engaged in labor talks, delaying the announcement.
The breakdown comes less than 24 hours after both sides expressed optimism that momentum was building towards an agreement.
ed: edited and bumped to front page
7 months ago
douglast
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that's almost a billion over a 10-year deal
probably more, assuming modest growth.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
the latest
WindhorstESPN Brian Windhorst
League source said talks broke when players wouldn’t accept less than 52% of BRI. No talks scheduled. More cancellations today.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
I was kind of waiting for this news.
The good news is, if they all agreed to everything else, they’re down to this one issue over the next month.
well, according to Woj, there is a bit more.
systems issues sound mostly resolved, but not completely.
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Source says that two sides also “couldn’t agree on final pieces of system.” No new sessions scheduled. Kaboom.
there is also the thought that owners were relenting on some systems stuff in order to be able to hold firm on the BRI
tribjazz Brian T. Smith
Told by two league sources in last 12 hours owners made concessions on system with plan to hardline players on BRI …
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
BTS's reporting makes a lot of sense.
Pretty normal negotiating ploy.
I’m still hopeful there was enough progress here that we’ll get 50 games.
Douglas, you should update the title and text here
With the new info about game cancellations and the like. I figure, no need for a new fanshot for the updated news.
done
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
It was always about the money (BRI), it always is.
Yes, the system issues are important. But unless they agree on the total $$$ there won’t be a deal. Conversely, once they agree to the BRI split, they will give and take on the system issues to finish the deal.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 28, 2011 2:05 PM PDT reply actions
I suspect it came down the owners, deciding they're willing the wait out the players for another month to see if they give.
Complete speculation here, but it seems likely.
I think the owners are absolutely locked in on the 50-50 limit.
They tried to give ground on some system issues hoping the players in exchange would come down to 50-50 but they didn’t, and so that was that for this week.
I don’t see the owners budging from 50-50 unless the players agreed to draconian system changes (beyond the owners wildest dreams). Each time there is talk that a settlement is near it goes up in flames as soon as they discuss the BRI split again. The Players are now down from 53% to 52.5% to 52%. When they get to 50% the lockout will end (I still think January).
Fischer said after the meeting that he couldn’t sell the players on a 50-50 split. I’ll bet the players would take it in a minute if allowed to vote on it. This is a case of their union killing them.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 28, 2011 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
"I’ll bet the players would take it in a minute if allowed to vote on it."
Today was the perfect day to take a union-wide vote on the present proposal.
"I Am Mine"
but the union leaders and stars don't want a vote yet
but I suspect a vote on 50/50 with the very minimal system changes we’ve heard about would likely pass
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Exactly, some people have been overemphasizing the system issues. Heck, even I've been guilty of that.
I’m guilty of a lot of things, though.
The holdup with this lockout is, was, and will continue to be almost exclusively about the tug-o’-war over the BRI split. Any owner who’s got his head on straight would worry more about the BRI split and treat systemic issues — which can get hashed out in no time at all — as only a minor detail.
"I Am Mine"
BRI =
Big
Rich
Idiots!
being
really
inconsiderate
by cavejunctionblazer on Oct 28, 2011 2:06 PM PDT reply actions
This was on David Aldridge's Twitter
“Prominent agent says union informed him that deal could be reached by Saturday.”
I’m not too worried about it anymore. Come to accept the lockout & been looking forward to the upcoming College Basketball pre-season tournaments.
by Oden_Favre_28 on Oct 28, 2011 2:28 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
some more twitter updates
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Privately, owners saying union left impression they would accept 50-50 if system issues were resolved, and that’s why NBA returned to talks.
daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Union looking for lux tax payees to be able to still use exceptions to sign FAs.
tribjazz Brian T. Smith
Owners still have all the leverage, power. They have a vision for system and BRI. No deal until players accept it. That simple.
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
by pinwheelempire
Fisher says union doesn’t want to lose taxpaying teams as options for players with exceptions. That remains big issue.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
sound like the loss of exceptions for over tax teams is a major hurdle, as is the BRI obviously
Players seem wiling to go to 50/50 if system is largely unchanged from previous system. Owners won’t 50/50 and some tax/exception changes at this point
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
I really think they need to focus on system issues
stuff that will actually help the NBA and prevent stuff like bloated contracts and/or help competitive balance. arguing over a few percentage points of revenue doesn’t matter if the money and championships still only go to a few teams.
LAH-LAH-LA-LA-LAAAAAH!!! I can't hear you!
What’s that? You’ve all pulled your heads out of your butts and want to start the season? That’s great! Get to work, idiots.
/fantasy
Doers & Makers > Movers & Shakers
Stern just officially announced
all games through Nov. 30 have been canceled.
Also, that there will not be an 82 game season in 2010-11, no matter what.
systems issues mostly resolved
KBergCBS Ken Berger
Stern: There were two or three open items left on the system issues. … Then we turned to BRI.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Contract lengths resolved
daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Stern says league has moved to five year contracts for Bird FAs, four on non-Birds.
still now word on MLE length, which as been rumored to be 3 (owners) or 4 (players)
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
and now the hammer from Stern:
daldridgetnt David Aldridge
Stern: you can assume our (next) offer will change to reflect the changed economics from missing games.
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
Stern essentially says: As the NBA loses more money with the cancellation of games, the players can expect owner’s offers to get worse.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
wait, I thought some owners actually claimed to save money when games are cancelled, hence the ability to wait out the players.
They said they'd price in fan apathy/anger into the offers
When games get lost, fans get cranky, and less fans return or buy merchandise. MLB and NHL have both seen it happen. So the owners plan to adjust future offers accordingly.
That’s a total paraphrase. I don’t remember specifically what they said, but I think it’s the gist. I’m not entirely convinced they’re serious, it may be a “this is your best offer, you should take it” type of message.
I believe they feel this way, but it seems that data shows this only to be true for about the following season, if that. But the fact is, owners will mostly be able to do whatever they want here, so…
In the 1998 lockout, it was three seasons I think
At least, if Wikipedia can be trusted:
The average attendance during the shortened season was 16,738 fans per game, down 2.2 percent from the 1997–98 average of 17,117 spectators per contest. Ticket sales fell nearly two percent further in the opening months of 1999–00, and remained under 17,000 per game for the following three seasons.
It doesn’t note anything about merchandise, though that could have been skewed by Jordan’s retirement. Also, that was an era with less alternative options that splinter viewers, such as access to games and other sports like there are now. And it was a better economic period. So I don’t know what to think about the parallel, with so many variables involved.
For the current lockout, things will definitely get worse if they lose a full season. MLB and NHL were both hammered by fans afterward, and took a while to recover.
I guess that’s literally true, but in the big picture, compared to what fans say during lockouts, that indicates people will stay away in droves, 2 percent seems like basically nothing.
The google books link for Dave Berri’s chapter on this issue shows the graph. Attendance dips in 1998-99 but then really goes, for all intents and purposes, right back where it was. (see page 18)
(hope this link works right)
http://books.google.com/books?id=nSbEqLF39ikC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=david+berri+1998+nba+lockout&source=bl&ots=iX7ixYGLnu&sig=5vJZkSku4o9tBuvHcWVaOxgCwB4&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
if your profit margin is crazy close, that 2 percent’s a big deal, but heck, Blazers attendance moves around a ton more than that just based on good quality team years versus bad.
2 percent is definitely not a huge deal, though I do suspect they'd price it into negotiations
It just shouldn’t be a huge change, as long as a season happens. It’s when a season gets lost that things go downhill even faster.
I still think the split will be 50/50 or 50.5/49.5, and that we see 50 games this season.
To me a 50 game season would be perfect, so I’m good with that. I long ago accepted that I have to throw out my sense of “what kind of salary/net worth is moral” on both the player and owner sides, so I don’t really care where they end up. And if the NBA destroys itself, well, I guess I go back to being a baseball fan.
/not a real fan? Oh, well.
Darth Stern
DS: My new offer is 49%
Fisher and Hunter: What, you already offered 50%. And we still want 51.5%
DS: I am altering the deal. Pray I don’t alter it any further if we miss more games.
by Norsktroll on Oct 29, 2011 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Call it 47% to 53%
and let the players earn the 53% on the court.
Was there ever any hope the lockout would really end?
“Just a fool’s hope.”
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 28, 2011 4:05 PM PDT reply actions
This is now mostly on the players' union.
Moving forward, the owners must stand firm beside their proposal of a 50-50 BRI split and wait for the NBPA to fold. Even if it costs an entire season of NBA basketball, that’s how it’s going to be.
Now, with that said, the owners shouldn’t lower themselves to a’hole status by worsening their offer solely due to missed games. No, they should be the bigger men here. By doing that, they stand adamantly by their current offer — without lowering it out of petulance — until the NBPA finally accepts it.
Y’know, if this were a tennis match, the owners would just need to hold serve.
If that takes one month and we get a truncated season, then good. If that takes several months and we miss a full season, then okay. Whatever happens, happens.
"I Am Mine"
i think we finally agree completely
rank and file should push for a vote sooner rather than later, but as of now they are still letting the agents run the show
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Ah, the agents.
I mean, shoot, I can’t blame the agents for being selfish and looking out for their own best interests, but the rank-and-file players should recognize that and ignore them at this point in time. Once the lockout is settled, the players can go back to using their agents’ services — which do have some value — without any conflict of interest.
"I Am Mine"
by AK1984 on Oct 28, 2011 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you will see the owners come back asking for 52%-53% and then quickly retreat to 50%
whenever the union leaders will agree to put it to a vote of the players. There were even reports that they started back at 53% (to the owners) again today. Raising their demand now is largely just a ploy to get the rank-and-file players nervous and hopefully get them to pressure their leaders. It also becomes a symbolic out in the future for the union leaders to say they got the owners back to 50%.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 28, 2011 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
So the 82-games deadline has fallen. It's reasonable to assume there are now two big deadlines left:
Deadline 1: Losing Christmas Day games. That’s the unofficial start of the NBA season’s national coverage. It’s a big deal. This will probably arise around Thanksgiving.
Deadline 2: No season. This will hit somewhere in the first week of January, probably the 7th or so.
There will be a minor deadline mixed in, the loss of All-Star Weekend. But I don’t think either side cares enough about it to make it a major deadline.
If I’m missing another big deadline, feel free to add.
Eat my shorts nba
Yes, eat all our shorts.
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way.
Mark Twain
Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mark_twain_4.html#ixzz1IE4sPu16
by Tyler Durrden on Oct 28, 2011 5:13 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I feel like I'm the only one
Who doesn’t understand how BRI works…
I know what it consist of, but just how do players get paid from it? Is it like an extra check divided amongst every player equally from BRI on top of the salary they already make? Sorry if I’m sounding dumb, but would anyone have a link or such that makes it somewhat easy to understand?
by Ansible on Oct 28, 2011 5:18 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
its a guarantee
say the BRI number is 50%. at the end of the year, BRI is figured. if the players were paid 49%, then the owners have to cut them a bonus check, which gets divided up somehow. if the players ere paid 51%, then they have to return the extra 1% to the owners (in actually, a portion of their money is put in escrow all season, so in the case where they got 51%, the 1% is returned to the owners, and the players get anything left in Escrow)
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
So I'm assuming
That the total salary of every player is taken into account and if they made what is 51% and the deal was 50% every player including the lowest paid players have to give back that 1%?
by Ansible on Oct 28, 2011 5:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
something like that, yes.
I’m assuming it’s all pro-rated by salary, so guys like KG and Kobe give back 200,000 while some league minimum rookie might only give back 4,000
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Kind of, yeah.
Each season, a percentage of the players’ salaries — ranging from as low as 8% last season and as high as 10% in the 2005-2006 season — is pulled from their paychecks and put into an escrow account.
"I Am Mine"
But if not enough is kept out in escrow, the players still have to give the difference back
in the following season’s salary checks. So the escrow amount is just contingent withholding which may or may not be needed, and may or may not be enough if needed.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 28, 2011 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that happened after the 2008-2009 season.
The overage was $219.8 million, but only $194 million was held in escrow.
"I Am Mine"
And so much for the players' threat of holding out via barnstorming tours
WojYahooNBA Adrian Wojnarowski
The “World Tour” of NBA stars game on Sunday in Puerto Rico has been cancelled, source tells Y! Organizer can’t deliver players.
This, on top of the fizzling of the “playing in Europe” meme is exposing that whole threat as the canard (that’s how you use the word Billy) it always was.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Yeah, this is basically what the owners were hoping for
No extra attention, missing paychecks, rank-and-file getting cranky with those who are holding out. Seems clear that the owners are trying to put a little pressure on the players right now, and see if they fold.
I'm surprised Stern only cancelled 2 more weeks of games. I thought he would "cancel" 4 weeks.
It’s actually a sign that he may still be optimistic (I’m not) that the union will fold next week and he doesn’t want the arena’s to rebook those first 2 weeks of Dec yet.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 28, 2011 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
he kind of cancelled more
up until today they were saying 82 games were still possible. Now shutting down through November and unequivocally stating a full season was now impossible, he effectively killed 4 weeks today.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Dammit Stern! Now he even cancelled the World Tour games! Outrageous!
Wait, say what? We organized that ourselves? Oops.
This is very good news (I hope)...
in that I’m a big fan of a major overhaul of how the NBA operates, I hope that this additional meltdown signals movement in that direction. I much feared a pre-mature coming together of the minds as was rumored to be happening any day now. Maybe the owners looked at their cards one more time and decided they have an un-beatable hand after all. Too bad the players don’t have enough sense to make up their own minds instead of being lead around by the nose by the likes of their greedy agents and equally greedy union “leadership”. But then, if many players had minds of their own they wouldn’t be supporting a posse of hangers-on, now would they?
sadly, i think you should prepare to be disappointed
it sounds like the owners caved on most of the systems issues, with only minor tweaks – contracts lengths from 6 and 5 to 5 and 4, slightly more punitive tax. not much else is changing it appears, with the possible loss of exceptions for over-tax teams, which is the 2nd biggest sticking point besides BRI at this point
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Yeah, I'm increasingly thinking that we'll have a 50 game season with less changes than anticipated.
Probably at 50/50 unless the owners try to back it down to 48.
The union and agents want the players to make as much as possible.
The owners want players to make as little as possible.
Who exactly would YOU trust if those were your options? It has nothing to do with which set of friends is saintly. Clearly, nobody is saintly in this negotiation. No, it’s business, and the players are going to stay organized because that gives them the best payoff over the long haul.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 29, 2011 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
not exactly true
some players have already lost more than they are ever likely to gain back, even if they get 52%. the longer the lockout goes, the more players will begin to fall into this category of players who are losing both short haul and long haul.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Mid December is a great time to start the NBA
I’m sorry but I hope that the owners win this battle. It sucks when your team is in cap hell and has no hope to win for years. The season is far too long to support teams with no shot at success.
Even the Christmas NBA games seem a little pointless.
When 16 teams make into the playoffs, games don’t really seem to matter until sometime around mid-May.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 29, 2011 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but we need something to tune out the relatives on Christmas.....
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Well...
It’s too bad because I had allowed myself to become cautiously optimistic. I’m not so optimistic now. I think if you’re that close to a deal, with the possibility of a full season at stake, then you find a way to finish the deal. Especially if you’re negotiating on a Friday with concievably a whole weekend that could be devoted to further negotiation.
I guess we will see how this plays out, but I’m afraid it could be a huge setback, to a process that has struggled to advance at all.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
apparently there was agreement on the new luxury tax as well
The breakdown came after the parties resolved the second-thorniest item — a new luxury-tax formula. The tax will start as a dollar-for-dollar penalty, just as it is now. But it will increase by another 50 cents for every $5 million spent beyond a set threshold — to $1.50 per dollar spent after $5 million, $2 per dollar spent after $10 million, and so on, according to a person who has seen the plan.
so, it sounds like there is really just 2 big things left, and perhaps a few other less items:
1) BRI Split
2) Whether over-tax teams lose certain exceptions (BAE, MLE)
The good news out of that is that a deal can come together fairly quickly once one side or the other (or both) cave on the BRI issue.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
I honestly hope you are right...
….but David Stern ending this session by scorch earthing the first month, while Billy Hunter mysteriously goes mute, is IMO not a good sign.
To me finishing the deal is an all or nothing proposition. Being close? Or the fact that they were close- really might not mean anything at this point. There seems to be so much face saving, agenda, and finger pointing, with both sides wanting to play the role of Hero, Savior, Saint, while painting the other side as the immovable and greedy.
I hope I’m wrong. And I could be. But when things fall apart, it’s a failure, and who knows what agenda, offers or reality both sides will return to the table with…“IF” they even return to the table any time soon.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
I agree to an extent
it’s either a deal or no deal, that’s for sure.
but everytime you come back to the discussion, the less things you have left unsettled, the less things can throw you off track. If they started with 20 things they were apart on 3 weeks ago, narrowed it to 10 last week, and now have it down to 3 or 4, that can only help.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
You would. Hehe.
It just seems to make crappy teams slightly more economically healthy IMO. What’s their incentive to spend money if they still can’t compete with the big spenders on the court, though? A hard cap with incentives for stars to go to small market teams makes the most sense to me, but I favor competitive balance over juggernauts battling each other while 50% of the seasonal games are pretty much unwatchable.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 29, 2011 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
that is an interesting idea on the incentives
but your bigger point is why i am hopeful that over-tax teams losing exceptions actually ends up in the agreement – this is on court incentive to be below the tax.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Meet the new luxury tax.
Same asWorse than the old luxury tax.
Competitive balance seems to be the NBA’s last priority…
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 29, 2011 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe the owners should up the ante
Set a timetable for their BRI offer. 50.5% until next week and then the offer automatically goes down by 0.5% by each week lost after that. Push the league to take a vote. Give them a half or quarter percent now so they can claim a moral victory and save face.
Three observations
A few days ago Paul Allen was the “grim reaper”, so who’s the grim reaper now?
What story are Hunter and Fischer feeding the troops? How can they claim that refusing to agree and losing salary now will get their players a better deal later? Do they really believe that? Or are they just being classic politicians who wait now for the troops to digest it all, finally accept that this is as good as it gets, regardless of agents and stars, and then come back for a little face saving?
If the owners were giving on systems issues to get the BRI split – and didn’t get it, how likely are they to keep the systems issues as currently discussed since the giving didn’t get what they wanted? Particularly when it comes down to the second most important issue for the stars and players, which is the luxury tax – which they know very well that a solid majority of owners want to cut back. The owners could take the 50%, but then harden their position on this item.
Somehow the Players need to wise up in a hurry, because the longer the agents and stars sit there in a funk and do nothing, they worse it will get for them.
Hunter already stated that the players are (or were) prepared to fight for future generations of players even if it costs them personally
You can believe that, or not.
ahh, such inspirational self sacrifice
to insure that no playres ever have to endure the pampered wealthy existence that would be that of an NBA player under even the worst owners new CBA offer.
Do they really expect anyone to swallow that drivel ?
Wake me when the game is on.
Notice how little
finger pointing seems to be coming from the players right now? Rest assured, like us, all the players are looking at everything done in the last three days. Then, we’ll see how much fighting for future generations they’re willing to do.
Being a fan of the NBA makes me feel stupider and stupider, day by day.
The notion of cheering these clowns getting more incomprehensible as time goes by.
To bad others less fortunate have to be hurt by this vanity. But, then, that is not really anything new is it – people in power serving themselves to the detriment to those not.
Spouting noble platitudes gets thin fast – actions, and effects, speak louder than words.
Disgust escalates.
Wake me when the game is on.
After 6 months of no checks the players will change their tune.
no more checks starts this month or the next, right?
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
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