Rose Garden Usher Speaks Out About NBA Lockout's Effects
A Rose Garden usher speaks out about the NBA lockout and its financial effects as well as the gag order imposed upon him.
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So here I sit ready to expose how this NBA lockout affects the John Everyman, not just the millionaire basketballers and the billionaire owners. While the owners refuse to open their books to show where these massive losses are coming from, I am more than ok with opening mine to show how trite their complaints seem. The rich arguing with the richer is a bad look, especially with so much business, so many people’s employment and the overall image of the sport at stake. Get ready to finally understand the untold story of the arena worker.
...
As you can see from the table, I don’t make much money. But the majority of the money I do make is a direct result of working Blazer, er, NBA sanctioned games. 56.49% of all earnings for me last year were basketball related income, which speaks to how much I (along with my fellow co-workers) depend on the NBA to have games play as scheduled. The main reason I decided to apply at the Rose Garden was because of the chance to work Blazer games. By the end of my first half year working at the arena I was granted the opportunity to be a part of their "Familiar Face Program," which I was awarded the section I work at for all 41 regular season games. I am able to request that same position right after the NBA schedules are released in August, and the only way I am in jeopardy of losing that position (as well as losing the ability to be scheduled for all 41 regular season games) is if I miss more than 3 regular games. The NBA, in my eyes, is job security to those working at the Rose Garden. Without that guarantee of being able to work those game shifts, I would be (and currently am) at the mercy of being scheduled (in competition with a few hundred other ushers) for the leftover events. No NBA games equals an inconsistent amount of shifts, which leads to inconsistent pay, which leads to increased difficulty in making ends meet.
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ed: edited description, bumped to front page
7 months ago
kicknowledge
122 comments
14 recs |
Comments
While the owners refuse to open their books to show where these massive losses are coming from
Where does this statement come from? Haven’t they opened them to the players, who have agreed that many owners are losing money?
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 8:07 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
It comes from
the owners reluctance in the beginning stages to show the facts behind their assertions that they were losing massive amounts of money. The quote you took, which you cut and quoted from, was used in a comparison to show that I am not as reluctant in show the losses I will experience. It was not meant be inflammatory about the owners, but to remind us of how far the discussion has come. Even though I am highly critical of the owners, this post or quote you used isn’t meant add to the discussion of “who is in the right?,” but to discuss how the disagreement affects the other levels of NBA association.
by kicknowledge on Oct 23, 2011 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
in showing the losses I well experience*
by kicknowledge on Oct 23, 2011 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I felt it reads very differently than I think you may have intended
It indeed comes off as inflammatory to me, and misrepresenting the current state of the lockout. I understand you intended a parallel (and I didn’t paste the whole thing because there is no lost context), but unfortunately such a statement leaves me thinking “what else is misrepresented?” afterward. Could just be me though.
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well, I didn't intend for the entire post
to be indicative of what the current state of the lockout is. The intent was just to write out what I was feeling, what I know and what isn’t being discussed. For the most part, everything isn’t misrepresented terribly (at least to my knowledge), and I hope that that one line didn’t change your overall perception of what I was trying to convey. (And at one point in this whole circus, the owners were reluctant, so like I said, I was just trying to remind everyone of that instance).
Thanks for reading my friend.
by kicknowledge on Oct 23, 2011 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
dont feed the trolls clem
Roy is like herpes...he comes and goes, but we are stuck with him for life.
by Philthyanimal on Oct 23, 2011 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
No worries.
I think everyone knows this sucks for everyone associated with the league. I just don’t want the message to get lost or distracted.
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I disagree with your interpretation.
I did not feel that the purpose of that sentence was to attack the owners in any way. Could just be me though.
viva la revolution
by L-TrainFTW! on Oct 23, 2011 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We get you have a more pro-owner stance on this
Doesn’t mean you have to come with the pitchfork or the delete key anytime you see something different. And for the record, I blame both sides, but it is clear the owner’s want a new model and are fine with breaking the union/missing games to get it.
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
+1
Roy is like herpes...he comes and goes, but we are stuck with him for life.
by Philthyanimal on Oct 23, 2011 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure where you're getting that from.
I dumped an inflammatory statement, and everything under it gets dumped too. If you want to flame the owners, flame away. If I disagree, I’ll let you know, but I won’t delete it.
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not the time or the place, but this type of discussion is bound to get "inflammatory"
There are literally people who won’t be able to pay their bills because of this lockout. I’m not accusing you of being anything but sympathetic to that, but when other people short change that (which was where the heated rhetoric came from in that chain, imo), it’s healthy and expected folks will get worked up. Both the owners and the players would do well to think about that, heaven knows they won’t.
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions
"it’s healthy and expected folks will get worked up."
This is true.
As with any hot-button topic, people are bound to have passionate feelings about this one way or another. Nobody’s right or wrong, either. The main thing is everybody who’s emotionally invested — whether directly (e.g., owners, players, arena staff, et cetera), indirectly (e.g., the sports media, TV network employees, advertisers, et cetera), or from afar (e.g., fans) — has got the right to view this complicated ordeal from their own individual perspective.
"I Am Mine"
by AK1984 on Oct 24, 2011 3:50 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
You are being awfully defensive
when all he is saying is he miss understood something written, and wanted to clear it up. I for one read it the same as him, and pretty much took the whole article as a owner bashing letter. I’m glad someone said something so I could understand the context a bit better.
One thing that Zach Lowe pointed out
was that Stern has been saying “Hey, we opened the books!” which was true to some degree, but they didn’t show everything.
Link.
He told Francesa that the league turned over certified annual reports, U.S. tax returns, financial statements and other documents to the union. "We invited [the union] to sit down with our accountants, but they never did," Stern said. All true. Not mentioned: The union’s claim that the league has refused to turn over other documents – team sales prospectuses, franchise valuation reports and information on side businesses related to the operation of NBA teams. The league may well be within its rights to withhold this stuff — it has argued as such — but the average fan would conclude from this interview that the league has turned over everything the union wants. That is not accurate.
I think it’s fair to say that the league/owners have been hesitant to fling open all the books and let players look at everything.
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
will your boss let you look at the books if you demanded him to
in order to get a raise?
Roy is like herpes...he comes and goes, but we are stuck with him for life.
by Philthyanimal on Oct 23, 2011 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
anytime I want a raise
I just create something like http://lebroncry.com
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
if they claim to be doing "fair bargaining" then they will actually open their books. its why state workers are more likely to accept cutbacks, because their management can actually see that the state cant afford to sustain that level of pay.
in fair bargaining, its supposed to be an open discussion about how much the entity has to pay employees. Its not really in the NBA’s best interest to open their books. We are in negotiations right now with our company, and they have cherry picked books to show us, whilst saying they are losing money.
by dario argento on Oct 23, 2011 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions
as a shareholder in the company, I get a quarterly report that's very detailed
and shows how the company is doing.
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Public or private company?
The problem is that any non-publically traded entity can be as opaque or transparent as they desire/the situation dictates. In a perfect world, the books would be totally open just so this wouldn’t be an issue, but Stern knows what he’s doing – the information will be provided and presented based on what is advantageous to the owners (as Stern should be doing – I hate what this is doing to the NBA, but nobody can accuse Stern of less than zealous advocacy for the owners)
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
the fact that Stern is not showing everything is smart on his part—it’s just frustrating b/c it doesn’t really help solve any problems.
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stern does a great job of representing the owners, and a terrible job of putting a face on the league.
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I blame the litigation training he received at Proskauer Rose
The man should not be on TV or the radio giving interviews – ever. He simply can’t go 30 seconds without interrupting someone and coming across as a smug, snide, condescending bully who twists every verbal misstep into something that fits his position. Even when I agree with a point of his, I usually feel dirty while doing so, truly an unlikable human being when his claws are out.
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Agreed
I feel like the issue of whether or not the NBA is providing cooked books/whether the players have all the information is going to be an 800 pound gorilla in the room for the duration of this lockout – which based on current speculation, should be somewhere around 2016
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
its a lose lose situation for them
they don’t show books…they look like bad guys. they show books and skeptics say that they are practicing crooked accounting.
Roy is like herpes...he comes and goes, but we are stuck with him for life.
by Philthyanimal on Oct 23, 2011 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Are the players accusing the league of cooking the books?
I haven’t seen them say so, but I could have missed it. I know they made a “bad faith” comment, but I don’t think they backed it up with anything about the books.
As far as I’ve seen, the players don’t seem to think the owners are hiding anything in terms of finances, other than the complaint about interest, of course. Curious if I missed something.
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No link handy, but the union has thrown out skepticism
regarding the accounting methods/severity of losses claimed overall. Absent the players getting everything they want in terms of access, I don’t see that claim going away, although I think in the long term, it won’t be the issue that prevents a deal from being made. It certainly doesn’t help matters though.
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Cool, I'll watch for any new stuff about it.
The last I’d heard, the players had stipulated that they agreed some owners were losing money. I was curious if there were indeed nagging doubts.
I think that's accurate, both in terms of the agreement that there are
teams in the red, but also the degree/number are up for debate – often depending on how ticked Hunter is at Stern
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
this is more the flavor of the nagging doubts i've seen recently
where they acknowledge loses but don’t see how it has anything to do with the system.. just bad business.
We’re going to stick to our talking points about the system being broken, stress our desire for competitive balance and emphasize that 22 of 30 teams are operating in the negative.
We know the system is just fine if we can properly run and manage our own teams. We know the general managers and presidents and all the people who actually make the decisions are the ones at fault, but we’re going to point the finger at the players for accepting the contracts we give them.
We will stress that a reduction in player salaries stands as the only way to offset our losses. And we want the players to give us back portions of their existing contracts for the next few years.
We know limiting the amount each team can pay its players has absolutely zero correlation to competitive balance.
We also know that if teams controlled their own spending, hired the right people to evaluate talent and made better decisions, they wouldn’t be operating in the red. But that isn’t how we are going to present it to the public. We will divert the attention away from the real crux of the problem.
by your face on Oct 23, 2011 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that's where it gets tough.
When you start getting into “bad business”, it gets into a really fine line. Could owners run their businesses more efficiently? Possibly. I mean, almost all large businesses can be run more efficiently in some way.
It’s so hard to say without showing the players everything in the books, but then that opens it up to the players telling them how to run their business, which may be biased in favor of saving more money to pay the players (in the same way that shareholders can pressure businesses to make short-term decisions that may be to the detriment of the long term). But on the other hand, if the businesses are indeed losing money, they’ve probably spent a lot of time making everything else more efficient already, unless they’re incompetent to some level. They’re already probably taking lowest-bidder on arena services, and they have no control over gas and commodity pricing, which has generally increased across the board, cutting into their bottom line.
Hrm, that’s just a no-win all around. 2016 may be a reasonable date for the end of the lockout.
Yup it is a very tough thing.
I suppose the reason I find the owners slightly less favorable in this is because they really do seem to be approaching this from the point of view that the players need to accept the changes they think will improve things as opposed to being open to discussing how to fix their league. One could argue that it’s not the player’s place to discuss how to fix the league, but I think this lockout wouldn’t have come to this point if the owners hadn’t been so hardlined about everything from the get-go.
Now the player’s got pride in it and while it’s no good for the state of pro basketball or probably even their eventual deal negotiated, it is where things are. I’m with you. At this point, I would be amazed to see how they even figure this one out.
by your face on Oct 23, 2011 10:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've shown my employees the books when the subject of pay cuts comes up
which is essentially what this is for the players. I’ve also been very transparent in times when layoffs were necessary.
But, I will say I did this more out of personal loyalty to the employees than anything. I wanted them to understand that, “yes, I’m asking you to take a pay cut, but I want to show you that I’m not paying myself at all,” or “I really don’t want to lay you off, but here’s the AR and projections, what would you do?”
The times when I don’t share the books is when we’re making lots of money. Take that as you will.
Very true that they won't show everything. But that's generally the case for most labor negotiations.
The players agreed that the majority of teams are losing money, so if they were satisfied with the amount of info released, I can go with it too.
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, they haven't.
They hide behind BRI and formulas, then don’t account for all the tax benefits in their calculations.
They are losing money not so much because they overpaid for players as because they overpaid for franchises. And they want the players to bail them out!
Now all we need is the rest of the roster to get into "how can everybody help Nicco and Oden" mode. -- Oden Mad, Oden Smash! Sep 29, 2010 7:47 PM
by LaoTzu on Oct 24, 2011 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm curious..
what ushers make an hour and how many hours they work a week during the season.
I know it sucks people are going to be without jobs, but I always assumed that it’s not very sustainable and the majority of the people that work in the facility are part-time.
This is in no way an answer
But are the people working low paying and low hour jobs less deserving of sympathy when they lose hours? Typically, those are the people that need the money the most.
We should bring in more scrub big men; they make good curse fodder.
by dan_the_man on Oct 23, 2011 9:21 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Pretty much all minimum wage
and when I worked there they don’t allow full time.
Its still income
Those pay checks could be the difference between a paid electricity bill and an unpaid one…
\\oo///
the article has a link to a spreadsheet
9.25 an hour is what the author has…and looks like it would have to be a supplemental income type of deal, not enough to feed a family.
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
and hopefully this goes without saying—this is still potentially vitally important to many of these workers. if you’re buried in school loans, house payment, whatever—a few hundred a month can be the difference between crawling ahead in life and sliding backwards further into debt. Big difference.
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
A majority of the guest services department....
…at both the RG and JWF are retirees supplementing social security benefits. A majority of the concessions workers are NPO volunteers raising money for their funds.
The turnover rate for hourly employees is astronomical due to the seasonality and the fact that most of these people only wor on actual game days (that’s 44 days at RG and 20 at JWF) which makes management dependent on retirees and NPOs.
The lockout sucks and people are losing money, but no one is going to lose their home over this unless they were already in danger of it happening regardless.
joined **Apr 16, 2008** last login **in progress**
by bforsythe on Oct 24, 2011 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The $1 million dollar fine won't help matters either.
"Ted Thompson's running Brett Favre out of Green Bay was the biggest mistake by a GM in the history of the league."
-Skip Bayless, November 2008
by The Cactus Leaguer on Oct 23, 2011 9:22 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
fistbump for blazeraddict
Roy is like herpes...he comes and goes, but we are stuck with him for life.
by Philthyanimal on Oct 23, 2011 9:35 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
#fistbump#
Roy is like herpes...he comes and goes, but we are stuck with him for life.
by Philthyanimal on Oct 23, 2011 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
#threegoogglesbackatyoubroseph#
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is the real sick part about the lockout
Don’t know why my first statement on this was zapped (discussion chain was heated, but not overly so, and besides, what else is there to get excited about) but this is absolutely essential income for a lot of people that is gone. Unfortunately, this looks like the NHL lockout of a few years ago – the owners are in it to re-configure the model, and the players will either have to cave now because the deal won’t get better or cave later because they will go broke before the owners do. Unfortunately, that won’t pay the bills of all the people like this guy sharing his story. It won’t happen, but wouldn’t it be a real “NBA Cares” moment if Stern came out tomorrow and said the folks on staff at various arenas would get their hourly wages as if there were games? Instead, one of the Vulcans is probably tracking this guy’s IP address so they can summarily fire him for violating the gag order…
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 9:49 PM PDT reply actions 5 recs
As I've mentioned to the author
I will pledge to Blazer management that if they fire this or any other employee for violating the ‘gag order,’ they will never, ever see another dime of my money. I’ll drop my season tickets, and never buy another bit of merchandise.
Gag orders are for well paid employees who are given privileged information. To put a gag order on and threaten a low paid employee who doesn’t know more than anyone who reads a paper is just bullying. It makes me sick.
We should bring in more scrub big men; they make good curse fodder.
by dan_the_man on Oct 23, 2011 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions 15 recs
They'd be in such trouble with the fan base if they did that.
It’s just bad karma. I’d really hope they’d let it go.
by Timmay! on Oct 23, 2011 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
no they wouldnt
a lot of fans don’t care…look at what happened in miami when they fired all the salesman after the big 3 formed.
Roy is like herpes...he comes and goes, but we are stuck with him for life.
by Philthyanimal on Oct 23, 2011 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that's different
Heartless? Sure. I like to think they could have found other jobs for those guys within the organization. However, the jobs those people currently had became unnecessary.
We should bring in more scrub big men; they make good curse fodder.
by dan_the_man on Oct 23, 2011 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The sales people in Miami made more money in three months...
…than they had in the previous five years. And they got huge severance packages. That’s just part of being in sales….gotta target rich soil.
joined **Apr 16, 2008** last login **in progress**
You get a Rec for that
I still remember the bad old days of the Patterson regime (“mole” hunts, large scale firings, etc.), and from what I’ve seen/heard of the Vulcans, I would be sickened but not surprised if loose lips did indeed bring consequences
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Amen to that
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
by skywaker9 on Oct 23, 2011 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It wouldn't be the blazers doing anything
It would be the NBA.
This has more to do with how an individual franchise handles its low-level staffers.
The NBA League Office couldn’t give a rat’s behind about each team’s arena workers.
"I Am Mine"
"Gag orders are for well paid employees who are given privileged information."
Exactly, the guy scanning tickets or working concessions shouldn’t have to deal with that.
"I Am Mine"
by AK1984 on Oct 24, 2011 3:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
My parents taught me this lesson about compassion
We’ve had a house cleaner come to our house every other week since I can remember. We paid that person $75 each time. Sometimes, however, we’d go on vacation. Or have house guests that interrupted our schedule, or someone would be sick and it would have just been inconvenient to have our house cleaned that day. Whatever the reason, we’d cancel every once in a while.
Some would say that is the nature of the business if you are a house cleaner.
But my mom would never let someone trying to make ends meet as a house cleaner (for the past few years it has been a husband/wife pair with two kids) miss a paycheck because we decided to go on vacation. So a check was always there for $75 every two weeks no matter what.
I’ll always remember that lesson. It will be a very long time before I can afford my own house cleaner, but trust me, they’ll get paid like clock work.
The Rose Garden is full of great employees that actually depend on that money. And it would be awesome if the league stepped up to the plate and paid these people even though the players and owners have decided to take a vacation and don’t “need” them. From what I hear, Paul Allen (and his deep pockets) is one of the major advocates for continuing the lockout until the owners get what they want. Maybe he should be paying the popcorn vendors in the meantime.
At least that is what I’d do if I was in charge.
Rec. Great post.
Beautifully written…and props for the spreadsheet. I need to be spreadsheeting/tracking my personal finances more than I am.
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 9:59 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm glad that you are shedding some light on this issue that affects so many workers.
I go bump in the night.
by IamWATCHINGyouSLEEP on Oct 23, 2011 10:31 PM PDT reply actions
out of all the screen names you have...
you have to post w/ the creepiest one?
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Is that really creepier than NAMBLA cardholder?
We should bring in more scrub big men; they make good curse fodder.
by dan_the_man on Oct 23, 2011 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
That is the single worst thing I've ever seen on this site (and for the record, it made me lol)
Particularly the smiling teddy bear. The only other AV that might top that is the creepy Astro Van, but the bear is pretty money
Kevin Durant won me over when he went Rocky IV on Russia this summer.
by blazeraddict on Oct 23, 2011 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I love how these accounts are over a year old. It's like opening up a fine wine.
I go bump in the night.
by IamWATCHINGyouSLEEP on Oct 23, 2011 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
i remember there was one about prezisanebonygoddess or something
and some other one about mortimer…cracked me up.
by prezofdeath on Oct 23, 2011 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Target is non-union, though.
For those who are applying to work at a retail chain, I’d strongly suggest avoiding non-union stores such as Target, K-Mart, Walmart, et cetera.
"I Am Mine"
there's two sides of that coin
to each his (or her) own.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
Ya when I was 16
I worked at Target, worst job I have ever had in my life. I also worked at Albertsons the following year, it was union and that union did nothing for me but take money out of my paycheck. Sure I was only 16/17, but I’m not sure how important a union is in this day and age.
So bloody important.
The weakening of the American unions in the 20th century has done more harm to this society and its economy than anything else. When workers can’t collectively bargain for better treatment, we all suffer.
Organize your workplace!
Doers & Makers > Movers & Shakers
by Adam Randall on Oct 24, 2011 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
There are arguments to be made against unions as well
it’s not black and white, and it’s largely a matter of personal perspective and opinion. I’ve worked in union shops, I’ve worked in non-union shops. There are plusses and minuses to both. Also, depending on the industry in question, unions make more or less sense than in other industries.
But I don’t want to get into a political debate here on BE.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
A few individuals are spending millions to destroy unions.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 24, 2011 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
and unions spend millions to gain advantages as well
it is what it is
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
by douglast on Oct 24, 2011 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh please.
Unions have reacted to the great powers levied against them. They are, in fact, necessary because of human greed, alone. The boss tries to squeeze the workers as much as possible, so they organize to reach a better position from which to negotiate. The boss hires goons to bust the union up, so the union hires goons to protect themselves. The boss tries to enact laws to destroy unions (which is an attack on free speech and legal assembly of citizens), so the unions spend tons of money on attorneys and lobbyists to compete in the courts and in Washington DC.
Unions are, in many instances, a “necessary evil”, but suggesting they be disbanded whenever a palpable inefficiency or dysfunction is discovered rings of the same hysteria of those who claim corporations should be destroyed whenever they pollute or ship jobs overseas. It’s a war on common sense, and a war several citizens are willing to spend millions engaging in.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 25, 2011 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
where did I suggest unions should be disbanded?
You are certainly entitled to your opinions – but they are just that – your opinions and beliefs. You can’t just “decide” to present them as undeniable truths.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
and you're also missing the obvious point that unions are losing.
So it ISN’T what it is. The American dream of working hard and having a family has been replaced by a few individuals becoming incredibly wealthy while everyone else struggles for a limited amount of resources. This message has been successfully marketed and it starts with painting unions as greedy and protesters as whiners when both have been instrumental in making America what it is—err—what it used to be…
Multi-nationals own politicians and major media though. It’s a pretty tough fight.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 25, 2011 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Reasonable people can disagree
Personally, my belief in the American Dream is completely unrelated to unions – and often runs quite the opposite to the way unions work. Personal drive, hard work, talent, and luck (yes, there is always luck) can lead one to improving ones lots in life. Union shops often work against this with seniority rules. Regardless of skill or ability or talent, unless you have enough time served you aren’t moving up the latter. This CAN promote apathy and a reduced work ethic. If there is no carrot to strive for, it’s human nature to let off the gas.
I don’t want or need anyone to fight or bargain or negotiate for me. I do it for myself. If others wish to form or join unions, I have no beef with them. But this whole “every businessman/corporations is a bunch of evil greedy awful people” stuff is just lazy and uninspired, as well as being just not true.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
There's no ladder, brother.
The haves are getting bailed out after destroying our economy while the rest of us are getting less and less each year.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 25, 2011 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
the 'destroying of our economy' is a complex equation with a lot of blame to go around.
It’s much to simplistic to just “blame it on the haves”. And I hate bail outs as much as anyone.
And there’s still a ladder. It just depends on what sectors someone is in, and what skillsets they have. to be sure, it’s a much smaller one in this down economy however.
I suspect we would disagree widely on our proposed solutions to the problems, but I don’t think we should go down that road.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
I don't know. We might agree of tons of things.
We might even be saying similar things from different angles.
/s
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 25, 2011 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions
At the retail level, it is black and white.
"I Am Mine"
by AK1984 on Oct 24, 2011 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just the fact that there are unions at certain employers
make the conditions better at even the non-union employers. So unless you work in an industry that isn’t unionized, in a country that isn’t unionized and has never been unionized it is hard to say unions don’t make sense. Severe restrictions on child labor, weekends, 40 hour work weeks, 8 hour day overtime, safety regulations, workman’s comp are all things that union members have fought and often died for. So if you have ever taken advantage of any of those things, thank a union
Aut disce, aut discede; manet sors tertia, caedi
by Occam's Blazer on Oct 25, 2011 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Sorry, I misspoke...
Racism in the 20th century has done more harm to this society and its economy than anything else. A lot of the unions were racist at the turn of the century, which subverted their own actions (people of color were frequently strike breakers since they weren’t included in the union).
If unions could have gotten over their petty racism, who knows where we’d be today.
Doers & Makers > Movers & Shakers
by Adam Randall on Oct 24, 2011 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Unfortunately, racism and bigotry will always exist in some form or another due to ...
our flaws as human beings. Libya is currently a dismaying example of that, as the plight of sub-Saharan Africans living there in fear from rebels during the revolt is a sad state of affairs.
Even a well-respected pioneer of peace and independence, Mohandas Gandhi, was an abhorrent racist, which shows that nobody’s perfect. Sometimes we must do our best to separate the good from the bad, since even the greatest, most heralded achievers in the history of humankind possessed their own fatal flaws.
"I Am Mine"
When it comes to paying low-level employees, Albertsons > Target.
There’s no argument there.
"I Am Mine"
I made 10.50 as a cashier at target
and 10$ at Albertsons, only know from my personal experience though.
At Albertsons, I've got a few friends and a cousin who climbed the ladder some rungs.
Two of whom are earning over $20 an hour as meat cutters, while a couple of others are doing well as assistant mangers by moving up the food chain over the past 10 years.
The issue with places such as Target, K-Mart, and Walmart — with myself having worked at K-Mart way back when I was in high school — is there’s practically no room for upward mobility, while low-level associates are often unable to get satisfactory raises over time.
If I could go back in time to when I was a 16-year-old kid getting my first job, I wish that it’d been at Albertson’s or Fred Meyer’s instead of K-Mart.
"I Am Mine"
Any idea on the numbers
how much of the increased pay goes to union dues? Just curious.
If you can bear to stick with it for a while, the union shops are totally worth it. At the beginning the dues tend to cancel out any increase in wages. But if you’re there for a while, like AK said, you can get into something like a meat cutter or assistant management position and make a lot more money than you’d have a chance to make at Target, generally. The sucky thing is that the turnover is very high at a lot of those places, so many people don’t realize those benefits, and the weight the union puts on seniority allows people who have been there forever to have better and more hours than the new people.
Of course, places like Starbucks and Whole Foods now are non-union and have much better benefits and arguably as good a chance to move up as Kroger or Albertson’s. So it really depends.
i keep dancing on my own.
Where I live, there are 2 major chains
Carrs, owned by Safeway, and Fred Meyers. While Fred Meyers here isn’t unionized, the wages are consistently 15-20% higher due to union contracts guaranteeing cost of living adjustments in all stores negotiated by unionized stores, mostly in Oregon.
Aut disce, aut discede; manet sors tertia, caedi
by Occam's Blazer on Oct 25, 2011 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
For what it's worth, I'm not pro-union in all cases.
In some cases, unions have a negative impact on those they’re supposed to represent.
At low-level retail jobs, however, unions help a lot in the difference between being underemployed versus earning a liveable wage.
"I Am Mine"
As well as
making it easier to file grievances without being retaliated against (or at least having recourse) and having a channel for safety complaints etc.
Aut disce, aut discede; manet sors tertia, caedi
by Occam's Blazer on Oct 25, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
My point was
This sucks, but these jobs that are being lost for the most part, are very low paying with not many hours. There are a lot of places out there, like Target, that are still hiring and you could up your hourly rate by about a dollar and increase your hours. If people really are worried about bills getting paid, they have options.
What about benefits?
The beauty of a union is you, and all your fellow workers, can fight for health care, paid vacation time, and other benefits that are beyond the power of a single worker to fight for. That stuff is worth a heck of a lot more than a couple bucks an hour.
Furthermore, by creating a better environment in your workplace, you increase demand for positions at that firm. As more competition mounts, others in the same industry must compete by adding more benefits to keep their workers around. So even having a strong union in your industry increases the quality of all positions in that industry, unionized or not.
Doers & Makers > Movers & Shakers
by Adam Randall on Oct 24, 2011 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions
When I was at the RG
I’m pretty sure no one got any type of medical benefits that were apart of the minimum wage part time bunch, and that was the majority of the workers.
until the wages/benefits packages get so high they distort the true value of the job
and the whole thing comes crashing down. Note this is much more an issue with manufacturing and government sector unions than retail/service union, but you get the point.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
"Note this is much more an issue with manufacturing and government sector unions than retail/service union [...]"
Here, I somewhat agree with you.
The drawbacks of a union are far more prevalent in the government sector than in the private sector, yeah. Now, regarding the manufacturing sector, I’d argue free trade agreements have done the most damage to this country. Sure, several unions in the manufacturing sector can be overzealous — such as the ones at Boeing — yet, it’s a necessary evil. Without unions in the private sector, workers at a place like Boeing would go from from earning a livable wage to being underemployed in due time.
Also, some unions are also way over the top with their demands — such as the Writers Guild of America back in 2007 and 2008 — so people were right to call them out on it. That applies to the NBPA, too, since they’re being unrealistic with some of their demands in these lockout negotiations — particularly when it comes to the BRI split — and should look to compromise.
"I Am Mine"
by AK1984 on Oct 25, 2011 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
as far as manufacturing
the world is a rapidly changing place. nothing is going to turn that back around, trade agreements or not. perhaps a different approach could have slowed the tide, but the tide was coming one way or the other.
It’s unsustainable to pay an assembly line worker $40 an hour with Cadillac benefits. That’s just the reality of global economics in the modern day technological age.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
True, globalization has taken effect and some form of economic protectionism ...
won’t fix much of anything. It’s unfortunate that sweeping change has the U.S. middle class stuck between a rock and a hard place.
"I Am Mine"
not all of the middle class
blue collar and customer service jobs – absolutely.
professionals in healthcare, IT, licensed services, etc. are all still doing reasonably well, given the overall economy.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
and looking at it honestly
should an usher (or food service worker) at the RG be much more than a minimum wage job? It’d kind of basic economic supply and demand principals at work here. It’s a part-time, entry-level, learn on the job type job. I assume people doing it can eventually work their way up to courtside or club/suite level, where the opportunity to earn tips comes into play, but other than that, it’s pretty much the epitome of a minimum wage gig.
This isn’t meant as any kind of attack on Clem or anything, just an observation.
"But if Ding Dongs and prime rib were the path to NBA pivot stardom we'd all be wearing the uniform." -Dave
I get his frustration ...
it’s a really bad situation for many of the Rose Garden workers and hopefully they will be able to fill those dates so the workers will be able to keep working. I’m sure some are just working there as a second job and won’t be too affected but weren’t they all warned to keep their opinions away from the media? I mean, it was a blog and not like he went to the Oregonian or anything but it’s been picked up here and by the Oregonian so I’m wondering if he’s now going to be out of a job. I mean, there’s a picture of him so it’s not like he can try and say it wasn’t him. I feel for him and he had a lot of good points but seems like he may have shot himself in the foot, unfortunately.































