Billy Hunter and David Stern: Fact Check
Mike Francesa of WFAN radio in New York interviewed Billy Hunter this past Wednesday, then interviewed David Stern on Thursday. Each interview is about a half hour long and is available to be heard via podcast.
I listened to both interviews last night with a critical ear, wondering if either man could be accused of ‘bending’ or ‘skewing’ the facts in an attempt to promote his point of view. Zach Lowe of Sports Illustrated and others have written about some of the questionable ‘facts’ presented by Commissioner Stern and I don’t want (or need) to duplicate their efforts. At the same time, I thought it would be appropriate to evaluate the numerical claims made by both men.
I don’t want to imply that most of what both Hunter and Stern isn’t true – I do believe that most of what they said during these interviews is indeed factual. That being said, though, I found that each of them said things that don’t seem to jive with what has been reported elsewhere. Find out what I mean after the jump:
BILLY HUNTER’S STATEMENTS
We’ll take these in chronological order, so since Hunter's interview was first...In his interview with Mike Francesa on Wednesday, the head of the NBPA said the following:
Claim: Basketball Related Income (BRI) was about $4.6 billion last season. The league subtracted about $600 million of this amount and then gave 57% of the remainder to the players.
My reply: Basketball Related Income was $3.817 billion last season. This seems to be indisputable. The players did get 57% of this amount ($2.176 billion) in salaries and benefits. Some ‘revenue’ is indeed subtracted to get to this figure and whether it was $600 million as stated by Hunter or $400 million as reported elsewhere, there is good reason why it doesn’t ‘count’ as BRI. Take, for example, an automobile dealer who puts up a sign for advertising at the Rose Garden. Let’s say that they pay $1,000 for this ad. The previous CBA said that $400 of that amount counted as BRI, which makes sense because the dealer pays the full amount to advertise not only at Blazer games, but also at other RG events. So, that other $600 is part of the amount subtracted from ‘total revenue’ to reach the actual amount of Basketball Related Income. Other sources of revenue, such as money coming from luxury suites and proceeds from naming rights, also included a designated percentage to be included as part of BRI because only a certain percentage of that money is actually linked to NBA basketball.
Claim: Luxury tax is paid by teams that are over the cap. There were 7 teams over the cap last year and paid luxury tax.
My reply: Mike Francesa is probably guilty of starting this misperception in the interview, but Hunter certainly didn’t clear things up. The truth is that, under the previous agreement, two different lines were created. The first line was the salary cap itself and the second line – about 21% higher – was the tax threshold. By my count, 26 teams ended the season over the cap, while 7 were over the tax threshold. This comes into play in the debate over proposals about more punitive luxury tax rules. If those punitive measures are perceived by the general public (or even the players themselves) to be imposed on any team over the cap, they will be interpreted differently than if they are perceived to be imposed on any team over the higher tax threshold.
Claim: 7-8 teams lost money last year, not 23 like the league says. All teams combined lost about $160-170 million last year, not $300 million like the league says.
My reply: Really? The profits of 22 or 23 teams were not enough to compensate for the losses of 7 or 8 teams? I could understand Hunter holding to one of those two statements, but trying to promote both as the truth? They just aren’t compatible. After all, even the highly debated figures on Operating Income from Forbes say that in 2009-10, 17 teams were in the red but that the league as a whole was $182.6 million in the black. In other words, lots of teams lost a little money but overall the league had a positive operating income. [I’m not saying these numbers are entirely correct – Forbes themselves admits that the figures don’t include interest, depreciation, taxes and amortization - just using them as a point of reference] Hunter wants us to believe that actual profits in 2010-11 were $350 million less than Forbes’ figure for 2009-10, but that only 7 or 8 teams actually operated in the red? C’mon, Billy…..
DAVID STERN’S STATEMENTS
Claim: The owners project that, under their proposal, the average player salary would go from the current $5.5 million to over $7 million by the end of the next CBA.
My reply: Stern uses the phrase ‘average player salary’ to his advantage. When he says ‘average player salary’, he is referring to a number whose calculation was established in the previous CBA. This number is not the mean salary, nor the median salary. By my numbers, the mean salary (which is calculated by taking the total amount of player salary and dividing by the number of players who were paid) for 2010-11 was $4.216 million ($2.045 billion divided by 485). I also show the median salary was the $2.331 million earned by Brandon Jennings. However, the ‘average player salary’ was calculated under the previous CBA by taking the total amount of player salary ($2.045 billion in 2010-11, including the payment of $26 million by the owners after the completion of the season) and dividing by 30 (the number of teams in the league) and then dividing further by 13.2 (an estimate of roster size) and then multiplying by 1.08 (to account for yearly increases in the next year’s player salaries). So, the calculated ‘average player salary’ was $5.576 million by my numbers for 2010-11. This would have been the amount of this coming season’s MLE under the previous rules and would have come into play in other significant ways as well.
Claim: The players’ propose that a team that is $10 million over the tax threshold should only have to pay about $11 million in luxury tax.
My reply: Both sides have reportedly suggested a tax system that would become more punitive the higher that a franchise is above the tax threshold. The players have offered a system that would charge $1.25 in tax for each of the first $5 million over the threshold, $1.50 for each of the next $5 million over the threshold, $1.75 for each of the next $5 million and so on. The owners have suggested a system that would charge $1.75 in tax for each of the first $5 million over the threshold, $2.25 for each of the next $5 million over the threshold, $2.75 for each of the next $5 million, and so on. In other words, a team that was $10 million over the threshold would pay $13.75 million in tax under the players’ proposal and $20.00 million in tax under the owners’ proposal. Not quite how the Commissioner painted it.
Claim: The NBA had $72 million in revenue sharing in 2010-11.
My Reply: This is another issue brought up originally by Francesa but this time it was Stern who made no dispute or correction (thus he appears to agree with it). This $72 million is the amount of money distributed through the luxury tax system. I would argue strongly that, although it could be called many things, the luxury tax system should not be called ‘revenue sharing’. Commissioner Stern refers to revenue sharing as a system necessary because of a need to re-distribute money from the franchises that are making the most revenue to franchises who are making less in revenue. Is this what happened through the $72 million last year? Is this what happened in any year under the previous CBA? Consider that Chicago – the franchise with the 3rd highest revenue stream – never paid a dime under this so-called ‘revenue sharing plan’, but did receive well over $15 million in checks during the last 6 years. Consider that Detroit – the franchise with the 4th highest revenue stream – also paid out zero and also received over $15 million through this ‘revenue sharing’. Consider that teams like Orlando, Denver and Portland had significantly lower revenue streams during the last 6 years, but their money sometimes went to franchises like the Bulls and the Pistons in the name of ‘revenue sharing’? I could bring up more examples, but you get the point (and are probably getting bored). Yes, some high revenue teams like the Knicks and Lakers were often taxpayers, but not because of how much revenue they brought in – they only paid out because of how much they spent in salary. Like I said, a system that tries to discourage teams from paying too much in salary through punitive means can be called a lot of things, but ‘revenue sharing’? Please……
FINAL VERDICT
In my opinion, both Billy Hunter and David Stern were a bit loose in their use of numbers this week.
Agree? Disagree?
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Great work
It’s really important for fans/writers to do this sort of thing. Both guys are trying to sway the public opinion.
One point on the lux tax
Stern claims that the players withdrew that offer outlined above and went down to the 1.1 or $11 million number.
By the way, I think the $1.25, $1.50 etc. sounds about right and guess thats where it will end up.
I think the sticking point was that Stern wanted teams to HAVE to leave lux tax territory every so often – and that’s where talks on that broke down.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Oct 18, 2011 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually my guess is
It goes $1.25, $1.50, $1.75 . .but at some point soon after goes up in a much larger increment.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Oct 18, 2011 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Stern seems to see the luxury tax as an element of creating a level playing field more than economic viability
At least that’s what I got from his interview with Aldridge. There he contrasts the extremes of what the Lakers are spending and what the Kings are spending to illustrate why a luxury tax is necessary in the opinion of the owners to give everyone a chance to win, a la the NFL where smaller-market teams have regularly won the title. And argues that fans know not all teams can spend equal amounts for their rosters and are dissatisfied with that situation.
I think you're right on what Stern is trying to say
But the NBA isn’t really sharing TV revenue the way NFL teams do (something NFL owners in big cities really, really want to get rid of.) It’s just imposing a tax on high-spending franchises. That means a team in a small market with a rich owner willing to pay boatloads of salary (any examples?) can be hit with the tax the same way a team in a big market can. It doesn’t mean that teams in small markets without rich owners can afford to keep their best players. The NFL puts TV money in a pot and divides it 32 ways. If the NBA did this it would be interesting to crunch the numbers and see if individual franchises would still be losing money. If they still would, then obviously salaries are out of control. If they wouldn’t, then that opens a whole ’nother debate on the rights of big-market teams to make more money, to what degree small-market franchises are necessary, how star player salaries fit into all of this, etc., etc.
Steve Goodman lives.
by twinsbrewer on Oct 15, 2011 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions
The NBA does it with national television revenue
Each team gets about $30 million a year from this.
The NBA differs, though, because not all games are broadcast via a national medium. Thus you have regional coverage like Comcast. And, yes, those amounts have not been shared up until now, although there is some indication that they may do so soon.
Okay...
I listened to the Billy Hunter interview. Haven’t “yet” listened to David Sterns. But I’m just going to assume both men are presenting numbers skewed to bolster their parties agenda.
I actually leave analysis of numbers and minutia to those with different types of minds than mine. I must take a bigger picture approach. The devil is in the details, so at some point all this really becomes very important. However, the most interesting thing I heard from Billy Hunter was his proclamation (I’m Paraphrasing) that "Stern had promised him a lock-out " a long time ago…
And that is the fatal flaw in negotiation so far to me. From both sides. I’ve felt all along like everything is on rails. That despite the meetings, the press conferences, that everyone thought a lock-out and a lost season was almost inevitable.
How can we Billy Hunter be dealing with Stern in earnest if he believes Stern is dedicated and pre-determined to sacrifice a whole season or at least partially a season?
It was Billy Hunters use of the term “Promised” as if Stern had already pre-determined this outcome.
I think both sides need to get off the Rails to Disaster. They both HAVE to believe resoulution is not only necessary but possible.
Unfortunately I still don’t hear or feel that from either side.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
Doesn't matter....
….whether Stern said “If” or not…the point being we have two parties with pre-concieved ideas about the direction and outcome. I’m not taking sides here, just my feeling all along has been that the place we have reached with the lock-out seemed to be inevitable, with both sides. I don’t yet feel we’ve reached a place where both sides are putting aside ego and preconception and actually saying…let’s find resoulution.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
I think this is just posturing by both sides.
I’m sure Stern told Hunter if the union didn’t agree to their demands that they would lock out the players. And I’m sure Hunter told Stern if the union didn’t get what it wanted the players were ready to sit out 2 years if necessary.
So what? I think Hunter just sounds amateurish saying Stern was determined to have a lockout to get what he wanted. Of course he was. Who didn’t know that for the last 2 years?
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 15, 2011 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I see no shame in telling the union the consequences of their inactions
Wouldn’t you warn someone that they are driving toward a cliff with no guardrails? That is not preconceived maliciousness at all, any more then the players saying if you don’t increase your offer we will go on strike. Notice the players had no intention of going on strike because they were already getting too much of the pie.
Remember who saved the nba!Magic johnson ,micheal jordan etc
I am a die hard nba fan. So i dont like misqoutes and ignorant comments. There would be no nba without BLACK superstars such as Micheal jordan and magic. Before them the nba was on a downward spiral losing money and fan interest.DO your research You see since it was the players who rejuvinated the league triplefold they deserve and was given slightly more of the pie. Black players were paid pennies in the early days even though they were always the driving force of nba’s popularity and profits. Who revamped run-down hopeless franchise. One young black teenager named lebron james. He brought that franchise back from the grave. Who does the fans pay money to see? THE NBA PLAYERS. My point is without the players no one will come,care or pay to see Nba. The players is why the nba is so successful not the owners. Its not fair to blame nba players for owners inability to obstain a profitable franchise.Its a known fact that player’s contract only increase if there is an increase in revenue. Its also a known fact that the highest paid player can never compare to what owners make. its like comparing copper to gold and diamonds, It just doesnt add up. This is nothing other than greed. The owners are vampires. No different than politicians. Do your research before you post next time. Ignorance is not an excuse the info is out there utilize it!
by Black revolutionary on Oct 30, 2011 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions
Always good to get some facts in the mix of the discussion.
It really is a complicated negotiation, which means there could be a long way to go.
This ‘basketball related income’ is still far from clear to me, specifically what is included and not included – I don’t get the impression that it is after all operating expenses (except player salaries)…. The players share is paychecks – nice for them, but if the owners are ‘losing’ money with forty something percent, there are a lot of expenses comming out of that ‘income’ that the owners are presumably paying. It seems this ‘percentage of income’ index, creates a massive accounting/negotiating mess.
Wake me when the game is on.
Your breakdown of the numbers (for both Hunter & Stern)...
….illustrate why the lockout is such a hard thing to navigate right now. The problem the players have is (understandably) don’t want to get ripped a new one. The owners not only want to rip the players a new one this CBA, they also want to rip the players a new one in the next CBA and etc etc. It’s hard to compromise with someone who wants to rip your head off (metaphorically speaking). While I don’t agree with the players position, the owners doing such a hard stance has left the players being embattled far more than they need to be.
Which is why I blame the owners for the lockout, but that’s a different argument really. Well done Storyteller.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Regardless of pointing fingers or looking at fault, one could argue both sides are concerned about being "ripped" in the next CBA etc. etc.
The one problem the players have strategy wise though is many of them would likely be willing to play this game for significantly less money. So basically somebody needs to round them all up together and make sure they take Stern’s comments personally and are bitter as hell. Either that or the agents need to take over. Either way, they are stuck with some ugly options.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 15, 2011 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions
What is or isn't BRI brings up an interesting question
How much of the Deduction from BRI is indirectly tied to the NBA, and is it enough to offset direct losses?
If $600M is deducted from BRI, and the league is claiming $350M in losses, then the owners are still profiting, significantly ($300M would work out to 9% net – a very healthy margin in any business).
So although a portion of arena revenues, using Storyteller’s example, are deducted because they are related to non-NBA events hosted at the arena – the arena itself often owes its existence to the NBA – so the non-NBA revenue is actually just non-NBA revenue.
I have no idea how much of the deducted amount is actually indirect revenue – but if the league has to deduct the amount – then it is conceivable that 100% of the revenue is indirect – and the owners are actually profiting on the NBA.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
oops
“…so the non-NBA revenue is actually indirect NBA revenue.”
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2011 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Larry Coon has this definition of revenues included in BRI
Regular season gate receipts
Broadcast rights
Exhibition game proceeds
Playoff gate receipts
Novelty, program and concession sales (at the arena and in team-identified stores within proximity of an NBA arena)
Parking
Proceeds from team sponsorships
Proceeds from team promotions
Arena club revenues
Proceeds from summer camps
Proceeds from non-NBA basketball tournaments
Proceeds from mascot and dance team appearances
Proceeds from beverage sale rights
40% of proceeds from arena signage
40% of proceeds from luxury suites
45% – 50% of proceeds from arena naming rights
Proceeds from other premium seat licenses
Proceeds received by NBA Properties, including international television, sponsorships, revenues from NBA Entertainment, the All-Star Game, the McDonald’s Championship and other NBA special events.
Some of the things specifically not included in BRI are proceeds from the grant of expansion teams, fines, and revenue sharing (e.g. luxury tax).
by Norsktroll on Oct 15, 2011 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
so, that is all INCOME...
then where is the expenses part – I take it that is all the owner’s problem ..
Salaries for all team employees from coaches/scouts to ushers to security to advertising etc, plus all medical plans/expenses, all travel expenses, stadium maintenance and rent/purchase and so on. This includes benefits for players beyond their salaries. It seems treating this as the ’owner’s share’ is not correct.
In other words this is GROSS income, not NET income. It seems to me they should be using NET if they want to get into % talk ? But, whatever. Not my problem. Seems like a big mess all right.
Wake me when the game is on.
by Berkeley on Oct 15, 2011 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
this has been a very under-discussed point IMHO
BRI doesn’t take into account costs at all. Since ‘99, the non-players costs have gone up faster than revenue growth. This is the piece that is putting the owners in the red. you can’t cut fuel costs, advertising costs, travel expenses, etc, etc, etc.. for the most part they are hard costs. and all those things individually are a much smaller piece of the pie than player salaries – which are a soft cost.
I remember reading some time ago (6+ months) about how much more it now costs the owners to generate a dollar in revenue than it did even 3 or 4 years ago. I don’t have a link or the specific numbers, but for illustrative purposes it was something like this:
Owners would spend 40 cents to earn one dollar. 57 cents of that dollar went to the players, leaving the owner with a 3 cent margin. But now the owners have to spend 46 cents to earn that dollar. The players still get their 57 cents – they share none of the burden of increasing costs, none of the risk. Now the players are 3 cents in the red.
"Well, you can always sell your team."
I don't think the owners miss a cost when complaining to the union
what the players are complaining about is that the owners count too many costs – specifically – interest on assets whose maturity the players do not share in. The players’ position is that it can’t count as a cost if it doesn’t count toward the BRI.
Likewise, the owners are not counting indirect revenue while counting indirect cost – double dipping to artificially lower the “net”.
This rift isn’t just about how to split a known pot of money – its about agreeing how much money is in the pot.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2011 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed....the big cue to me is the fact that the owners will not open up the books
if in fact they were losing money at the rate they are saying ….they would be willing …no insisting that the union look at the books.
Sabas: 'You can't smoke, you can't drink, you can't play basketball.' So of the things I like, only sex is left,"
by 92wastheyear on Oct 17, 2011 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions
why is this still being said?
the books have been opened months ago. The players have looked at them. This is a non-issue.
"Well, you can always sell your team."
by douglast on Oct 17, 2011 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Probably because of what is outlined in this comment
“Also important here is that, while the NBA has clearly released all of the teams’ financial data to the players, they’ve steadfastly refused to release data on related side businesses, of which arena management surely would fall under.”
And
“Additionally, a lease payment that represents a huge drain from the NBA team itself is pretty much moot if it’s getting paid to essentially another division of the company (i.e. the Trail Blazers division of Vulcan paying the Rose Garden division of Vulcan to play there is hardly an expense for PA).”
I don’t doubt that stuff like this happens all over the league
Sabas: 'You can't smoke, you can't drink, you can't play basketball.' So of the things I like, only sex is left,"
by 92wastheyear on Oct 17, 2011 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Why would they release thier non-basketball related income?
So the players could use the fact that the owners are Rich against them in the media?
I don’t blame the owners on this.
It’s related fruit – but so are endorsements players make.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Oct 18, 2011 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Here is an interesting case study
If I was in the player’s union I might like to know how much this place pulls in. This (literal) "side business’ is directly related to the NBA being there
Sabas: 'You can't smoke, you can't drink, you can't play basketball.' So of the things I like, only sex is left,"
by 92wastheyear on Oct 18, 2011 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I remember reading something from Larry Coon
last year in which he speculated that the owners might offer up a proposal that would guarantee players a % of the “net income”. He seemed pretty sure that the players would turn it down, though.
For example, last season, Total Revenue was $4.22 billion, BRI was $3.82 billion, Salaries/Benefits were $2.18 billion and Other Expenses were $2.34 billion (this my best guess of the owners’ numbers).
Even if the players were guaranteed 95% of the “Net Income” (Total Revenue minus Other Expenses), they’d only have gotten $1.79 billion under such a system last season.
this is probably the most fair model
but like you say, the players, accustomed to a too-generous system where they make gains when times are good AND bad, would never go for it.
I think there were components of this in the league’s “50/50” offer, which was actually described as a 49% guaranteed minimum with a chance for players to get up to 51% – which I assume is tied to improved profitability in some way.
Ultimately, i think this is a good direction to be headed in – both sides should stand to gain AND lose depending on the overall success of the league.
"Well, you can always sell your team."
I dunno
Some of these other costs are fixed, but some aren’t. Under that system there’s literally no incentive for owners to run their franchises even semi-competently because they’re guaranteed a profit no matter what they do. While those expenses do include things like fuel and associated travel costs, they also include things like Paul Allen paying 7 GMs over the past 3 years (slight exaggeration), James Dolan continuing to pay Larry Brown $6 million a year in perpetuity despite being a disaster, and every random family member or incompetent front office hanger-on that the team employs.
And beyond that, it only further incentivizes these humongous leveraged sales of NBA teams since owners are able to dump the loan on the franchise and write off the interest as another “non-player expense” which the players get absolutely no benefit of in forms of franchise sale profits.
Guaranteeing either player or non-player expenses either way is going to distort how teams spend their money, but given that the players are the actual performers out there, my personal preference is to give them the benefit of the doubt.
right
which is why I like the idea of a hybrid approach, which sounds like what the NBA offered with the 49 minimum, but up to 51 possible approach. the players are largely protected against the abuses you describe above, but at the same time, they have some minor incentives (on the whole, not individually in contracts) to try and help the league profit, and they lose that extra 2% if the league is doing poorly. think post-MJ, when the league was suffering some image problems, which were at least partly the fault of players.
"Well, you can always sell your team."
It's really the arena management
that seems to be the huge sticking point here. Based on some quick wikipedia-ing, it looks like Portland, Sacramento, Utah, Denver, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Toronto, New York, New Jersey (kinda), Philadelphia, and Miami have their NBA owners either own or operate their home arenas (most of which received huge subsidies to be built). And as Gladwell pointed out in his story about Bruce Ratner and the Nets sale, while running an NBA franchise may not be a profitable venture, managing/operating an arena sure is lucrative. Also important here is that, while the NBA has clearly released all of the teams’ financial data to the players, they’ve steadfastly refused to release data on related side businesses, of which arena management surely would fall under. And let’s not forget that the reason the Blazers were able to stay in Portland financially was that Paul Allen re-purchased the Rose Garden.
Of course, you could argue that NBA players have no right to this since a whole lot of arena management has nothing to do with the NBA players (i.e. rock concerts), but at the same time, most of these arenas only exist due to the public subsidies extracted due to cities’ desire for NBA basketball, so without the NBA there would be no opportunity for these separate profits. Additionally, a lease payment that represents a huge drain from the NBA team itself is pretty much moot if it’s getting paid to essentially another division of the company (i.e. the Trail Blazers division of Vulcan paying the Rose Garden division of Vulcan to play there is hardly an expense for PA).
So really, I think this is what Gladwell dug into a little for one franchise. For a lot of owners, their NBA is one unprofitable part of a larger extremely lucrative venture. Despite its unprofitability, these ventures require the NBA to be involved, but it really just depends on whether that should be factored in at all. Regardless, it’s pretty safe to say that Vulcan’s overall books look a whole lot better than the Trail Blazers division’s do.
Arena ownership would be an interesting thing to look at, though the evidence doesn't seem conclusive either as for so many other issues discussed around this CBA
As this paper from a professor at Minnesota State University two years ago suggests that I read a while ago. Might have been presented at one of those stats conferences:
PDF abstract: http://krypton.mnsu.edu/~millep1/papers/NFL%20NHL%20NBA%20Franchval%20Paper%20May%202009.pdf
Web abstract: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7583/is_200908/ai_n35631263/
This paper examines the franchise values of American professional sports teams in the NBA, the NFL, and the NHL. It is argued that team franchise values depend on the ownership status of the facility in which the team plays. If a team owns its playing facility, it capitalizes the value of the facility in the team franchise value, driving the latter higher. If a team plays in a facility owned by another entity, the franchise value should be lower. The empirical evidence suggests that the franchise values of NFL and NHL teams are higher for teams that own their playing facilities. No such effect is found for NBA teams.
Emphasis mine. He also quotes a ton of other interesting papers, e.g. on how quickly the “novelty effect” of a new arena wears off in just a couple of years, so newer facilities aren’t necessarily that much better as leagues and owners like to argue. Or motivations for the owner to over- or underrepresent the true value of their franchises, including the argument used by Gladwell in his argument on psychic benefits beyond the true rational value of owning a team this summer http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6874079/psychic-benefits-nba-lockout
A problem for the valuations could be that he relies on data by Financial World (for the 90s) and Forbes, and that while probably still the best publicly available was shown to also be a bit spotty as Storyteller mentions above.
I feel like I've seen that abstract before
Possibly during the whole Sonics-Bennett debacle, but it definitely looks familiar. My main issue is essentially impossible to address, which is simply the small sample size of franchises along with the myriad other factors making it hard to quantify these things. Sure, it’s great to own your own arena, but still much more profitable to have a favorable lease in LA or Boston than an arena in Portland, and also doesn’t necessarily take into account the value of the facility itself. While James Dolan and Tom Gores may both own their own arenas, The Palace at Auburn Hills is nowhere near as valuable as MSG (although the palace hosts way better fights these days).
The main driver in these exorbitant team purchases seems really to be the location, even though the study argues there’s little correlation there, which I don’t think disproves the point, though. Rich people like owning teams in areas they live/are from (i.e. Clay Bennett) so teams in locations with multiple extremely wealthy people attract buyers, and teams in places without them don’t. It’s not that Steve Lacob really wanted to pay $450 million for a team valued at $300 million, but the bay area has only one team and at least one other highly interested buyer (Ellison) that he had to outbid.
And of course, you also have the relatively straightforward sale of the Pistons to Tom Gores (lives in CA but from Michigan originally) while teams like New Orleans and Charlotte go wanting. Given the NBA’s straightforward adherence to never letting another team encroach on a current team’s territory, i.e. a 2nd SF/Oakland team, just further emphasizes these trends.
Additionally, I really think it should be pointed out that this protectionism, along with David Stern’s quixotic insistence that the Hornets never leave New Orleans and the group of owners refusal to let anyone pay near the valuation, are all that’s keeping the Hornets from being sold. Is there any doubt that Larry Ellison would buy the Hornets tomorrow if he was allowed to turn them into the San Jose Hornets? The NBA definitely has about 2-4 franchises too many, but it doesn’t help having them mis-located as well.
Interesting
I’d make a related point that though franchises Have typically increased in value (not so the Nets) that asking owners to bank on that while player’s money/profit is guaranteed is unreasonable.
Yeah, I don’t care that they’re already rich.
"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."
- Chessmaster Savielly Grigorievitch Tartakower
by lietothegirls on Oct 18, 2011 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
blacknoiseNW -
There is no “deduction from BRI”. The deduction (whether $400 million or $600 million) is the non-basketball-related portion of revenue which is taken out to get to basketball-related income.
All revenue – Non Basketball Related Income = Basketball Related Income.
Or in dollar figures:
$4.2 billion – $400 million = $3.8 billion BRI
Wanna know how you can tell David Stern is lying??
His mouth is moving.
by sexyscottish on Oct 15, 2011 5:02 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
At this point, I do not care who is right and who is wrong.
Both sides can give out numbers and both sides feel they are right and the other is wrong. So, it is time to quit worrying about right and wrong and just think what is. And what is both sides game playing at the fans expense. Both sides says in time an agreement will be made. If that is true, then they have a pretty good idea what the numbers will eventually be, therefore why wait do it now. give us our games back at the price they will eventually agree to.
That is what is and it is not about right or wrong or figures.
hg
The owners have provided audited financial statements to the players
The players have decided that they know more about accounting than the CPAs and have arbitrarily deducted expenses that represent real costs to the owners. I have little sympathy for the union which deliberately distorts what the independent CPAs have certified. It is good enough (accounting principles) for the SEC and it is good enough for the NBPA.
by lee3022 on Oct 15, 2011 9:35 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Agree
Both sides have had 21 months to deal with this, and both knew that it would go to a lockout before any progress would be made. Virtually nothing happened until the lockout took place, and both have an agenda – and it does not include the fans who pay the bills. The players do not want to give up the extra income that they get when teams go above the CAP and the revenue split, regardless of the fact that the ability of large market teams to pay far more than small market teams for talent ensures that the fans in small markets cannot compete for that talent, and the owners do not want to have full revenue sharing.
Frankly, I doubt that mediation will have much effect. The simple reality is that the owners want a different deal than the last one, and the players do not want to give it to them. And if the owners do not go any further on the revenue split than they’ve proposed to date, and the players refuse to agree, then nothing will happen. The same is true of the issue of limiting the amount that large market teams can spend on salaries over and above the CAP.
As far as what Stern says, or Hunter and Fisher say, it’s all posturing.
Fun with Numbers- Don't Forget Inflation
One huge factor in all of this is the value of the dollar through inflation- thanks to policies by the privately run Federal Reserve- have been declining rather rapidly lately. If you look at the real rate of inflation, it is running at about 12-13% (http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts).
The owners are trying make the players and fans pay for these inflated costs. The players are trying to keep up with inflation (I know they make big money) by not losing too much in the overall percentages.
So this is not only a classic labor vs ownership battle, but another indication that our economy is being destroyed by failed monetary policies of the mega-banks. We allowed them to create Federal Reserve dollars since the Federal Reserve act of 1913. A dollar that has since lost 98% of its previous value.
not true
A dollar that has since lost 98% of its previous value.
I’ve heard this before and it is bogus. The US dollar has lost 98% of it’s value tied to ONE commodity – gold. Compare it to anything else and see what you get. Tie it to food….
I’m not qualified to take a stand on the whole federal reserve or gold standard thing. I just know distorted facts when I see one.
The players
Are getting paid to play basketball. At the end of the day, make sure that the golden goose stays alive. Let the owners make a little more than you think they should — you’re still getting paid a ton. Just don’t kill the golden goose.

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