The Lineup
by Dave on Sep 1, 2010 12:02 AM PDT
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PrintOff and on since an appearance on the MSP about a year ago, Antonio Harvey and I have been batting around the idea of the semi-unusual lineup of Nicolas Batum, Brandon Roy, and Rudy Fernandez. I've talked about it here before in mailbags and such and it came up on the radio again yesterday morning.
The offensive advantages of that trio are pretty clear: each can handle the ball a little, all three are unselfish, their various gifts complement each other (particularly Rudy's deep shooting), the combination of height and versatility would create matchup problems for their opponents, and the lineup requires zero trades or other assets to work.
The disadvantages of that lineup are also clear: not one of them is a proven point guard and the defensive hole at the non-Batum positions would be significant. Neither Brandon nor Rudy are suited to guard NBA point guards or small forwards full-time. By default one would have to.
What kind of promise and what kind of drawbacks do you see in this potential lineup? Could the Blazers' frontcourt provide enough defense to make up for the shortcomings among the smalls? Would the potential benefits outweigh the risks? Could it ever work?
Me? I'd be for trying it. How about you? Use your brilliant basketball minds to toss it around in the comments.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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I'm much more interested in
a Roy – Matthews – Batum lineup.
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by Jaycation on Sep 1, 2010 12:36 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
second that
this shores up the defensive liability of Rudy and still gives good height and 3 pt shooting to relieve LMA and GO
third that
the defense with both Matthews and Batum would be excellent.
Not enough playmaking in that lineup
Roy can’t do it all and doesn’t have experience running the offense (vs. having the offense run through him; there’s a difference), and Batum is hardly a proven commodity despite his decent play this summer (especially this last game). Matthews is of course even less of a playmaker.
by mas1983 on Sep 1, 2010 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I disagree
This in more than likely a late 2nd and 4th qtr lineup with Roy the primary ball handler and either Mathews or Batum bringing the ball up every 4th-5th possesion
My signature is superior to your signature... ugh!!
by DribbleDriveDish on Sep 1, 2010 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Bringing the ball up and what...
Giving it to Roy?
other options
-Batum entry pass to the post ( Nic’s been working on it) Clear out
-pick n’ roll with either big – A work in progress but both #88 and Matthews can do this occasionaly-both can hit 3
-pick n’ pop with LMA
-other stagnant 4thqtr nate offense
I’m one who believes Nic can play SOME point-forward (influenced by last week’s games? Yes) and also, I think Matthews showed some ability last year to handle the ball; I know DWill initiated and ran the offense 95% of the time last year for the Jazz, but still, I believe Matthews can play the point every once in a while.
And in crunchtime, close games, It’s Roy all day… plus, this lineup see’s 10-12min tops a game
My signature is superior to your signature... ugh!!
by DribbleDriveDish on Sep 1, 2010 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I apologize for the double posts
SBnation is trippin on my comp
My signature is superior to your signature... ugh!!
by DribbleDriveDish on Sep 1, 2010 2:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Also
Batum is practicing the Ally Opp pass that would be right up Rudy’s alley. That would give him his need for stardom and maybe keep him from crying so much.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 3:50 AM PDT up reply actions
feeding Rudy's need for stardom
has left other Blazer players starved for PT during the last couple of seasons
the benefit has not been worth the drama
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Bayless
healthy lottery choice, played 1959 regular season minutes
Go ahead, try to find another player who was selected 1-13 in the 2008 draft who played so few
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
There's one in every crowd
Joe couldn’t beat out Luc Mbah a Moute in ’08-09 and was stuck behind Deng/Gibson/Thomas in Chi-town
What a gem of a lottery pick that was, the sad thing is that Portland also had some interest pre-draft interest in Alexander, IIRC.
Skinny/athletic ‘tweener forwards who can’t shoot straight for the loss
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yeah, Joe Alexander came out of West Virginia mighty raw. The ...
writing was on the wall there, although you just knew someone would roll the dice on a high-risk/high-reward gamble like that.
Go ahead, try to find another team that selected 1-13 in the 2008 draft who won 50 games last season
Context dude, context.
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sure
but part of our strategy has been stockpiling a million billion draft picks, so it’s not like we ended up with a high-profile high-upside guy who got underutilized by freak accident. If management is going to acquire all these guys, the onus is on them to either (1) figure out how to play and develop them (2) get value for them in trades or (3) articulate a reasonable explanation why the first two aren’t the best courses of action.
They have it figured right with Bayless though
- In year one he was flat out awful all year and a poor fit cos he couldn’t shoot from outside at all.
- In year two he improved dramatically and saw a dramatic increase in minutes but was still held because he is not a natural facilitator or a good 3pt shooter.
- Year three could see his upswing in minutes continue but I would suggest a stylistic change would be necessary for him to see 25-30 minutes a game in 10-11.
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fair 'nuff
I just wish we could’ve used the offseason to clear out the wing positions a bit so he could get some run at SG (where he is more natural right now).
I'd actually argue that Jerryd Bayless is Portland's best ...
backup shooting guard at the moment, although that’s a scary thought.
look at other playoff teams though
is James Harden much better? Raja Bell? Whoever the Mavericks call their backup 2? The Machine?
If management is going to acquire all these guys, the onus is on them to either (1) figure out how to play and develop them (2) get value for them in trades or (3) articulate a reasonable explanation why the first two aren’t the best courses of action.
This^
Bayless was a lottery choice who had the misfortune of coming to a deep roster at the same time as a popular European player who had “promises” made to him in order to get him to sign. I can’t say with certainty that all of Fernandez’ minutes were earned by his superior play to Bayless in practice and games , but I will say that the threat of Rudy’s discontent was very likely one of the factors that led to him receiving steady playing time. (There was one night where Fernandez played so poorly that he was not put back into a game after logging only 7 minutes, but that was a notable exception)
From Jason Filippi, we learned that up until last March Rudy was one of Paul Allen’s favorite players, and it would be impossible for Nate McMillian to not be aware of this
Seasons change, rosters change. Rollover is a fact of life for every pro team. I feel safe in saying that Portland is heading in a different direction, one that will probably include more PT for Bayless than in his first 2 seasons. But it will be up to Jerryd to compete for those minutes, as always
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I tookthe challange
rose- 3000, 2871 5871 total
beasley- 2009, 2328 4337 total
mayo- 3120, 3113 6233 total
westbrook- 2668, 2813 5481 total
love- 2048, 1714 3762 total
gallinari- 412, 2747 3159 total
gordon- 2677, 2229 4906 total
alexander- 716, 29 745 total
augustin- 1908, 1472 3380 total
lopez- 2501, 3027 5528 total
bayless- 655, 1304 1959 total
thompson- 2303, 2357 4660 total
rush- 1803, 2491 4294 total
randolph- 1129, 749 1878 total
lopez- 614, 986 1600 total
speights- 1263, 1016 2279 total
hilbert- 1009, 2035 3044 total
mcgee- 1143, 968 2111 total
hickson- 705, 1691 2396 total
ajinca- 182, 30 212 total
year one bayless played less then 16 of the top 20 picks
year two bayless played less then 13 of the top 20 picks
total he has played less the 15 of the top 20 picks
but i dont even need to make any argument about bayless minutes, you made it for me with your joe alexander argument
#88
other options
-Batum entry pass to the post ( Nic’s been working on it) Clear out
-pick n’ roll with either big – A work in progress but both #88 and Matthews can do this occasionaly-both can hit 3
-pick n’ pop with LMA
-other stagnant 4thqtr nate offense
I’m one who believes Nic can play SOME point-forward (influenced by last week’s games? Yes) and also, I think Matthews showed some ability last year to handle the ball; I know DWill initiated and ran the offense 95% of the time last year for the Jazz, but still, I believe Matthews can play the point every once in a while.
And in crunchtime, close games, It’s Roy all day… plus, this lineup see’s 10-12min tops a game
My signature is superior to your signature... ugh!!
by DribbleDriveDish on Sep 1, 2010 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions
batum and matthews are more capable and proven scorers than fernandez is
you cant possibly believe with a sane mind that replacing matthews with fernandez is that much more detrimental to our offense. matthews and batum can both easily average around 15 a game. rudy on the other hand averaged about 5 last year. unless Rudy is wide open, he aint doin much with the ball, nothing positive anyway.
and dont forget about oden
if hes healthy, i guarantee you that mcmillan is going to start getting him more involved in the offense. it aint gonna be “just give roy the ball and clear out” anymore. Oden needs to average at least 20 a game if were ever going to win a championship some day.
I disagree
This in more than likely a late 2nd and 4th qtr lineup with Roy the primary ball handler and either Mathews or Batum bringing the ball up every 4th-5th possesion
My signature is superior to your signature... ugh!!
by DribbleDriveDish on Sep 1, 2010 12:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Not enough playmaking in that lineup Roy can’t do it all and doesn’t have experience running the offense
Is Rudy really a significantly better playmaker than either Matthews or Batum?
I’d like to see lineup suggestions that include the names Miller and Bayless, whenever possible
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Is Rudy really a significantly better playmaker than either Matthews or Batum?
Rudy’s AST% was 14 last year, Nic and Wes were both under 9.
When did Nic have the chance to show off his play-making abilities
Look at the players not the stats. Batum walked around all year with a bad shoulder, he is now doing great in France with two good shoulders. You go by last years stats and I will go with this year’s playing. Wesley was 2Gd beside Williams how can you assess him? It is this year we are talking about not last years stats.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Stats are a weird thing around here
If I use normal stats then I should have used advanced stats and if I use advanced stats I should watch more games. So from now on I think I’ll use one of each. I’m sure that’ll probably be wrong though
by TP.5 on Sep 1, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I could see Batum developing into an NBA playmaker, based on some flashes with the Blazers and also his international ball play and pedigree before the Blazers drafted him. There’s no reason to expect the same from a 23 year old guy who was undrafted and comes from a system that is well known for hiding ballhandling and playmaking deficiencies of its wings.
Rudy’s AST% was 14 last year, Nic and Wes were both under 9.
That’s significant? Not compared with how much the players in question actually had the ball in their hands
Rudy forced his way into a ballhandling role with his past complaints about his progress. Was he particularly good at running an NBA offense last spring? Not even
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
It is a 50% increase. Rudy is a pretty decent passer at the NBA level. Batum’s shown some of this in international ball, and hopefully that will translate.
Nicolas Batum has better handles, while Rudy Fernandez has better court vision.
Neither guy can play the 1 whatsoever, though.
I think this is accurate.
Batum, at least right now, would be the kind of guy to bring the ball up for Roy, rather than running the offense.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I normally would agree, but...
I’ve been mostly impressed watching Batum running the offense on occasion for France. And that is with a pretty miserable group of offensive talent surrounding him. I’ve been really surprised with how well he passes around the hoop so far. Seems like he’s made some mistakes (but he hasn’t ever run an offense before at this level that I know of. Mistakes are to be expected), but a lot of those mistakes are just his teammates being surprised at getting a pass as much as the defense was. The France bigs don’t have the best hands.
Doesn’t mean it would translate to the NBA, but Batum has surprised me with his handles and passing during the FIBA tournament.
Neither guy can play the 1
Nic can defend the position, at least. And he will steadily get better as a “facilitator” on the offensive end.
Batum’s feel for the game >>> Fernandez’
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
feel for the game is just fluff
Rudy has great court vision and passing ability. Nic has better handles and is better able to play within a system. I would certainly say Nic is a more willing roleplayer than Rudy.
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If by "feel for the game" he means can adjust to a system, then you two ...
are on the same page and just using different terms to describe it.
If that is the case
I misinterpreted what he was intending to say and I do indeed agree with him.
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it's a scouting term
I’m not sure if they’ve ever really defined it. BBIQ is another term that some fans don’t enjoy hearing about, because it’s an eyes thing rather than a metric
I think Ben described Rudy’s feel for the game very well in his video presentation of Spain vs Lithuania earlier today. I’ll leave it at that
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Came in to say the same
No worry on the defensive end and Batum has a borderline great 3pt% and Matthews and Roy are no slouches themselves with the long ball
My signature is superior to your signature... ugh!!
by DribbleDriveDish on Sep 1, 2010 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Funny that you're a Batum fan...
…and yet you say Matthews sucks.
Makes about this much sense:
by Corvallis, OR on Sep 1, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions
both? i guess
blazers fan 1st, basketball fan 2nd, ducks fan 3rd, college basketball fan 4th, international (fiba, olympics) fan 5th, my old hs fan 6th, euro fan 7th, hs basketball fan 8th
#88
Not for me
Floor spacing certainly wouldn’t be an issue, but there’s something to be said about the steady influence both Blake and Miller brought to the court the last several years. Roy’s a good ball handler and playmaker, but there’s more to being a point guard than just ball handling and playmaking.
And don’t get me started on defense. Even if Miller doesn’t move well, he’s physical and has high defensive IQ and instincts.
Rudy is not a good enough ball handler to be a PG at present
Even if he was the secondary ball handler he would likely struggle. His playmaking would be intriguing but I don’t think it would be ideal.
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Agreed. When Rudy does set people up it is typically when he receives the ball on the move and is cutting through traffic.
Very few good plays are initiated by Rudy having the ball stationary on the perimeter – if he keeps it and tries to initiate he often gets shut down or stripped.
Rudy is very good in the flow of the offense or in transition but he isn’t the guy who starts plays.
I like the Roy / Batum / Matthews idea better or Bayless with Roy and Batum, but having a real point guard (not sure I consider Jerryd one yet) is still the ticket, IMO.
put a body on 'em
Defense
If we have a shot at winning with Nate as HC, its because were going to play lockdown defense. Dave you thinking Rudy as if he will play another minute for Portland is quite ridiculous in itself.
The game was delayed for over 15 minutes with 5:07 left in the second quarter after France's Nicolas Batum, who plays for the Portland Trail Blazers, dunked and twisted the rim. Officials scrambled to put a new rim on the basket and reattach a net.
Defense
If we have a shot at winning with Nate as HC, its because were going to play lockdown defense. Dave you thinking Rudy as if he will play another minute for Portland is quite ridiculous in itself.
The game was delayed for over 15 minutes with 5:07 left in the second quarter after France's Nicolas Batum, who plays for the Portland Trail Blazers, dunked and twisted the rim. Officials scrambled to put a new rim on the basket and reattach a net.
3 posts down on the main page
There’s this from Rudy: “I’m still a Blazer.” Does that sound like someone who won’t report to training camp?
Meanwhile the trade rumors have fizzled. It looks more likely than not that he’ll be on the Blazers’ roster on opening night. And if he’s on the roster, he’ll get a chance to play. Nate’s not going to bench a useful player just because the fans are mad at him.
Rudy is done making statements about leaving the NBA
a 25k fine will have that effect
if you think he’s resigned to returning to Portland, I strongly suspect you’re mistaken
and the trade rumors having “fizzled” only means that Cho has managed the media leaks, not that he has stopped taking calls re: Fernandez’ availablity from other NBA GMs
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Rudy will not be a Blazer on opening night
Blazers are just waiting to see if the World Championships might bring in a better offer, or if there is a bigger trade that Rudy would be a part of. If the latter doesn’t happen by training camp, they’ll move Rudy on his own for a draft pick.
Miller, Roy, Batum, Bayless, Matthews. That’s five guys who want or need a minimum of 24 minutes per game – for three positions. And it doesn’t include Cunningham who might see time at the 3. Having Rudy on the team and taking minutes away from these guys just doesn’t make sense.
OK, I'll bite...
Who is going to hit the 3 out of that group? I only see them able to hit the corner\ jumper, as opposed to Rudy, who can hit from anywhere.
Batum
Bayless
Matthews
Roy
Babbitt
Rudy can miss “from everywhere” at a 60+% clip, just as well. Portland has 3 additional floor spreaders in the main rotation, their names are
LMA
Camby
Cunningham
Rudy, Webster, Blake and Outlaw will not be missed
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
LMA, Marcus Camby, and Dante Cunningham are pick-and-pop mid-range jump shooters.
To be an actual floor spreader, a player must have three-point range. It’s no longer the ’70s.
Yet, with that said, Wesley Matthews and Luke Babbitt can both spread the floor as reserve 3s, while Babbitt — unlike Cunningham — can hypothetically be a stretch 4 at times in the mold of Sonic era Vladimir Radmanovic.
isn't Cunningham
Our current back up 4 until Oden/Pryz are back at center putting Camby at backup 4?
To be an actual floor spreader, a player must have three-point range. It’s no longer the ’70s.
Terminology and semantics. If a player needs to be defended (can’t be left open) 15+ feet away from the basket, that necessarily draws a defender away from the paint (especially on the baselines) and opens up driving lanes for penetration
Portland has 8 players who can’t be left open at mid-range distances, and 5 with 3 point range. How many really need to be be on the floor at one time? 2 or 3
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I haven't seen Matthews or Babbitt yet, but...
Bayless does not shoot the 3 ball as well as Rudy. I think Roy has been around 35% at best, which is pretty good. Batum is looking to be a fine shooter. But Rudy really was one of our better 3 point shooters last year.
But then, I was also rather fond of Blake on offense, so what do I know.
Roy was 37.7 twice
Only in the top 50 in 3pt % once (47th rookie year). I don’t know if that’s pretty good or just decent.
Considering the degree of difficulty on his 3s (he creates more for himself and they are less open) 38% is pretty dang good, and makes him comparable to other scoring twos (Joe Johnson, Wade, Kobe). For comparison, JJ made an outrageous 48% of his threes when employed mostly as a shooter for the Suns, but that dropped to below 40% when he went to the Hawks and became the focal point.
2nd half of the season, including playoffs
Bayless shot 37-38% from downtown. While playing extended minutes for the first time as the team’s #2 PG
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
he worked on his shot, it improved
that’s the goal. Bayless is trending upwards and he’ll have similar opportunities in NBA games this coming season. More reps this summer, steady improvement. Where Jerryd’s career 3-pt percentage will settle is anyone’s guess, but it is a skill that can be coached up and other NBA guards have achieved similar results. I’m expecting high 30s and I’m sure Bayless will be disappointed if he lapses back into the low 30s
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
If anything his form was uglier when he was making them late in the year
Flat trajectory and slower release but he was being given open 3’s do good on him for making them I guess.
Colour me unconvinced in Bayless as a floor-spreader.
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that was my question
Has Rudy made statements contradicting his earlier statements that he basically will not play for the Blazers – money or fame be darned? Kind or renders this point moot, no?
Si
this whole thread has a big logic hole right in the middle of it. Dave’s toes may curl at the thought of a Rudy-Roy-Batum lineup (as he said while on the MSP) but it’s an academic/hypothetical discussion that is not based in reality.
He did draw a lot of responses though, which I suppose is the goal of any successful blogger
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Its not academic if Rudy does end up coming back
If Cho can’t find a decent trade do you really think Rudy will sit out his contract? Are you trying to say reconciliation is impossible?
Stop talking in absolutes.
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It's still pretty safe to assume Rudy Fernandez won't be here to start next season, even if ...
it’s not a 100% given.
You would think it is more likely he will be moved than not
But just assuming it is the case and insinuating that anyone who cannot see it is an idiot, particularly in a thread designed foster conversation on a lineup involving Rudy, is just plain annoying.
If he thinks it is a done deal then there is no point being in here.
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by MadBlaze on Sep 1, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
of course there's a point
Most Bedgers have made a trade proposal at some point that has no basis in reality, but it’s sparked discussions that have wandered off in unexpected directions. That’s the point, making Blazer-related conversation
I’m 99.9% certain that Rudy and his agent were not blowing smoke, last month. If he reports it will be a huge distraction, which I think everyone at Blazer’s HQ would like to avoid. So yes, I think it’s extremely likely that we’ve seen the last of Fernandez in any Blazer lineup.
But that inevitability shouldn’t stop anyone from discussing the remote possibility, just like we did re: trade proposals involving Chris Bosh last spring, etc
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Not sure if I made myself clear here
I meant there was no point for you coming in here if all you want to discuss is why Rudy won’t be here/why Matthews and Bayless are better. That is a fine topic for conversation, but it is not the conversation taking place here.
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It isn't veering when every thread anyone writes here has this push.
It is more like hijacking.
In Bayless I trust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
This would be how I feel
Especially when there is one poster doing the hijacking.
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A Roy-Batum-Fernandez line up puts a lot of pressure on the interior defense.
Small, quick point guards bedevil Portland. If you’re going to go with these three, don’t you also have to go with Camby and Oden to shore up the inside?
Argh
So frustrating because LA has all the physical tools Camby has and could potentially be the oustanding help defender Camby is but … something’s missing.
Instinct
Aldridge has scorer’s instinct, Camby has defensive rebounding/help d instincts. I really think it’s that simple
Don't forget
Aldridge was Big 12 Defensive player of the year at Texas. He plays D much better than given credit for.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
by tssbro on Sep 1, 2010 9:26 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
He does deserve more credit
For being good at guarding Big 12 players. He should try it against NBA players too
I agree with you to a certain degree
My point was aimed at the idea that he doesn’t have the instincts to be a good defender. I do not have time to search for it now but Ben had a great post on LA’s underrated defense sometime in the spring. I don’t think he is as bad on D as many have complained. Sure I want him to be better but he is not an ineffective defender.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
One-on-one he's fine
As is Roy. But playoff games are won and lost on team defense, something that’s not as critical in college (and I don’t think his college team had much postseason success). He has yet to show the focus to help and recover, or to make more than 1 or 2 rotations per possession
z
I think Aldridge has gotten better too
It hasn’t been huge, but it seems like Aldridge has gotten a little more aggressive on defense this past year.
Aldridge Good help defender
LMA is a pretty good help defender and is one the best big men at guarding the perimeter. Where he really struggles is post defense. If you leave him one on one with a strong physical power forward you’re asking for trouble.
JRogero
LMA is fine at switching up top on screens, but his help defense is as lazy as can be when it ...
comes to rotating back down from the weakside or being a shot blocking presence. Also, not many 4s get by on being solid perimeter defenders — with Jared Jeffries being one of the few specialists in that regard — because that isn’t the natural game of a power forward.
exactly
he’s deficient at the things he needs to do most often, unfortunately
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
unless you turn him into a big "small forward"
but since LMA’s gained 15-20 pounds that’s not been the emphasis, this offseason
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
My first thought was why Rudy and not Matthews. If Rudy could magically stop crying over his pathetic play
the line up seems like a good idea to experiment with in pre season.
Yea, it really depends on Rudy
If Rudy plays up to the potential he seemed to show as a rookie, the defensive price might be worth the huge offensive pay off. A confident Rudy moves the ball well and is a deadly sharpshooter. And I think we would see his ability to attack the hoop and create improve, especially with so many other threats taking some pressure off of him. Plus, Roy is certainly capable of playing much better D. He simply chooses to save himself for offense most of the time. With more offensive firepower on the floor with him, we might see him focus more energy on defense. Speedy PGs would still be a problem, but every team has weaknesses.
But the Rudy we saw last year isn’t worthy of major minutes. His shot was off. He was hesitant. He had major turn over problems. And he was only a creator in his head.
If he’s still on the team by the time the season starts, I would experiment with this lineup in practice. If Rudy looked good in it, I might give it some run against teams providing favorable matchups. Depending upon how our more traditional lineups fair, I could envision giving something like this a shot so long as Rudy played well.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
Nate's vision of Rudy's role on the Blazers: spot minutes hitting spot-up threes.
Rudy’s vision of Rudy’s role: Kobe Bryant.
I'd be for it if Rudy showed any proclivity for playing solid man-to-man defense
That hasn’t happened to date but I’m not going to ignore Rudy’s talent just because he is whining a little. Assuming Nate talks to him and sells him on this idea on the condition that he ups his defensive intensity then I’d be willing to run for it.
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And if Roy picks up his D this year (which I'm really hoping for)
Masking 1 weak link on D isn’t terribly hard. The Suns have done it for years with Nash, and we have way better quality defensive bigs than they did
Rudy shouldn't be as poor a defender as he is either
Its the fact that he gambles far too much and puts in little effort closing out that makes him substandard. He is quick enough both in a straight line and laterally to stay with NBA 2’s….1’s I’m not sure.
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Physically, he's capable. I agree
But I think at this point he’s old enough that it’s going to be hard to totally reshape his approach. He likes making highlights instead of heady plays, especially on defense. If he can shoot the 3 like he did his rookie year and Roy translates his BBIQ to both ends of the floor, then I think we can afford to let Rudy be Rudy on D and still field a solid crunch time lineup
I hope you are right
But if you think Rudy is too old to totally reshape his approach, then isn’t that true of Roy too. He has been lackadaisical on that end for 2 full seasons now – what makes you think that will change.
I’m just pessimistic about the defensive intensity of that backcourt and how it could translate into continued foul trouble for GO. I just want a good defensive backcourt preventing penetration and protecting GO to a degree rather than leaving him exposed constantly.
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What you say is true
As I continue to read and learn, It is also true of all teams lack of of preventing penetration against fast PGs. It has also been said that playing tough defense and the number one focus on offense is rough to handle, therefore, I give BRoy a pass. OTOH, Batum is usually number four on Offense so his Defensive intensity wouldn’t hurt his Offense that much,
That is why I like the idea of changing the number one option around more. It gives BRoy a chance to show his defensive skills and it gives others more of a chance to be part of the scoring.
BTW: other fast PG can’t guard fast PG, because of the NBA protecting the PG rules.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 3:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Kobe has shown that it is possible to combine being a do-it-all player on offense
with being an All-NBA level defender. Roy has the physical tools, he just needs to make defense a priority. That is all it should take.
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The biggest knock we have on our franchise player
is that he isn’t as good as K*be, one of the most complete players currently in the game, and just on one end of the floor.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Roy doesn't seem to have the stamina Kobe does.
I don’t get the impression that it’s a lack of desire to play consistent D as it is a lack of energy. It may be a matter of conditioning. Or it may just be that Roy’s ceiling isn’t as high.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
Brandon does need to accept the challenge to be a better defender
but even K*be struggles to keep quick PGs in front of him. So does Fish. So will Blake
that’s why the L*kers play team defense
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Roy has shown steady improvement every year since he was a freshman in college
I’m hoping that at some point he “gets it” and realizes that team defense wins championships. He has a mental approach of doing whatever it takes to win. Rudy has a mental approach of doing whatever it takes to make SportsCenter. I’m hoping that’s the difference. I agree with you that I’m probably being too optimistic about Roy, but one can dream, right? We’re sunk if our 2 best players don’t buy in on defense, and i have more hope for Roy than LMA
Don't worry
The guy who will be our best player over the next 5 years is totally committed to defense. I’m not sure I agree on the mentality of Roy vs. Rudy – if anything Rudy gives more effort on that end, its just directed at getting steals rather than staying in front of his man. Plus he couldn’t fight through a screen if his life depended on it.
Nevertheless, I find Roy’s lack of commitment on D more disturbing than Rudy’s failings. I’m sure its not a conscious thing, but it would take a big change in his on-court behaviour for him to realise his potential as a defender. The progress he has made is nearly imperceptible but you are right, it is there, so I too hope he ‘gets it’ this year and steps up to the plate on D.
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I like it
I wouldn’t throw it out more than 15-20 mins a game, but as situations allow (ie opponents ability) this would be a great way to drive up rudy’s trade value as he has no place here long term. With Rex, Wesmat, and Andre cleaning up we should be able to attain a better player/pick via trade running this for a limited time before the trade deadline.
wanderlust
I think the lineup could work in certain situations.
If you are looking to make up a lot of points, one way is to simply try to outgun your opponents.
I think it would really only work against opponents that don’t have dynamic backcourts. It could work, for example, against Phoenix because you could put Batum on either Nash or Hill, and Roy on the other.
You would have to have Camby and Oden in the front court.
It is an intriguing possibility. However, I don’t believe Rudy is coming back. If he isn’t traded, he will simply not show up. His “I’m still a Blazer” line sounds more like resignation than commitment. He’s made it very clear he does not wish to remain with Portland. I can’t imagine giving a big role to a player who doesn’t want to be there.
A While Back
I posted my fantasy defensive line up:
PG: BRoy, because he has been practicing that and likes the ball in his hands.
SG: Batum because of world championship play.
SF: Matthews for defense, but was corrected several times to the fact that Batum is much taller then Matthews so it would be better to switch the two. I agreed. Now it is Matthews at the two and Batum at the three.
PF: Camby for defensive needs or LMA for offensive needs depending on the situation.
C: Greg, just because he is Greg and his D is out of this world and is improving on O.
I would leave the starting unit as is
PG: Dre
SG: BRoy
SF: Batum
PF: LMA
C: G.O.
hg
SF: Matthews for defense, but was corrected several times to the fact that Batum is much taller then Matthews so it would be better to switch the two. I agreed. Now it is Matthews at the two and Batum at the three.
Depends on the opponent. Nic is a better choice to defend quick PGs. Matthews has defended Melo in the playoffs, so there really isn’t a size problem with Wesley defending bigger 3s. He’s not as long as Nic, but the solidly-built Matthews has a better chance of post-defending more-physical SFs (Cunningham is another defensive option for forwards like this)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
rudy has guarded durant before too, why not start him?
matthews did nothing to stop melo, but i see all that matters is that you guarded someone before.
#88
Rudy can be a starter on a different NBA team
if he can earn the job
I feel very confident in saying that he will never do this in Portland. Matthews doesn’t need to start to be a valuable rotation member, but I’m not going to convince you of this because you’re already certain that Wesley “sucks”
Regular season games start up again in November. Watch them. You will see Matthews wearing a Portland uniform and not Fernandez
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Having a defensive assignment...
Is not quite the same as actually guarding someone.
by 52therim on Sep 1, 2010 1:56 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Melo said Matthews was one of the toughest guys to play against
I might be wrong, but I don’t think Durant said the same about Rudy.
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
What do NBA players know?
Melo was probably just being nice, while secretly hoping that he will have the opportunity to abuse Wesley again, in the future
/sarcasm
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
NBA players probably don't like being hacked at
I would guess that would be tough to play against.
BTW You really trusting Melo to know what good defense looks like?
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Oddly enough, this might turn out to be a defensive upgrade
No one in the NBA has the lateral quickness to shutdown the best point guards under the current rules. So we might do well to use a defender who can make up the difference in length, and Rudy is plenty long.
Meanwhile, Rudy’s main defensive issue is that he lacks the strength to lock down NBA shooting guards. That wouldn’t be a problem if he guarded the 1.
Roy's problem is his commitment to playing D, not his strength.
Roy has all the tools to be a good to great defender, at present he allows himself to be average. Sure he might not have the wingspan to be a pickpocket but he is quick enough, strong enough, smart enough and athletic enough to guard his position. Bout time he did it for the full 82 and whatever comes after that.
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I'm confused
Rudy Fernandez’s main weakness as a defender is strength. Brandon Roy has all the tools to be a good defender, but isn’t, yet. Are we disagreeing? I’m assuming that in this lineup, Brandon would normally defend 2s and Rudy would defend 1s.
Aaa
Rudy cannot defend 1s. Batum would defend the 1s. Rudy would defend the 2s. Roy would defend the 3s.
Not being able to handle a hangover will lead to a level of maturity.
Wheels to Jason Quick
Roy would defend the 3s.
Roy has dropped 5-10 pounds in anticipation of not having to defend SFs anymore
Matthews was acquired to make certain that this will be the case
I’m am so sick of lineup suggestions that move Roy to the 3 to accomodate Rudy defending the opposing SG. It was tried for 2 years, it didn’t work, and Fernandez complained about his role anyway. Meanwhile, Brandon suffered leg injuries in part because of the added stress of defending more-physical wing players
Can we move on, please?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Rudy had a bad year last year
that much is indisputable. But the idea that playing Roy and Fernandez together on the wings Rudy’s rookie year didn’t work just doesn’t wash. We ran teams out of the gym Blake/Rudy/Roy.
I also don’t particularly buy the idea that guarding backup 3s 5-10 mpg will run Brandon down. Backup 3s aren’t generally all that good, so they won’t be physically abusing Brandon anymore than starting 2s. It’s not like he’d be guarding LeBron or Carmelo—it’s Jared Dudley and Tony Allen we’re talking about.
by atomiccafe on Sep 1, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
WHAAT STATTTS
stats dont count, if you use stats you obviously didnt watch the games, or so I am told.
#88
ha
I watched the games and saw us demolish second units with Blake/Rudy/Roy and Sergio/Rudy/Roy. Rudy/Roy on the wings were one of the things that made the 08/09 Blazers a joy to watch.
But the idea that playing Roy and Fernandez together on the wings Rudy’s rookie year didn’t work just doesn’t wash. We ran teams out of the gym Blake/Rudy/Roy.
I don’t care. Because that lineup is never going to be together on the same NBA team in the future
Roy is an all-star shooting guard. He needs to defend his peers, not be guarding bigger SFs to make a Spaniard happy with his role. That’s been done for 2 seasons and Fernandez still complained
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Flip “Spaniard” for “Chinese” or “Native American” or “Black”. You’ll see the statement as clearly charged (though wrongly so in my opinion).
It is racist (makes a distinction based on race) in the true sense, depending on how one draws ‘race’ lines.
It isn’t racist in the derogatory sense (ie “Spaniards are so fat, it is just part of being Spanish.”) so their is no reason for anyone to be offended.
In Bayless I trust.
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Perhaps racist is the wrong word
But I’m not sure what the right one is. If I said, (Just an example I do not believe this) playing an african american sg ahead of Rudy has hampered Rudy’s progression people would call me racist (and hopefully dumb)
two4 didn't mean it as descriptive of Spaniards in general.
He was just trying to give his writing flavor and depth.
Spaniard is considered a nationality, not a race, traditionally.
African American is also not a race, but a racially based culture group inside of one country.
So two4 could simply point out he was referring to the nationality, “Spaniard”, rather than the hopelessly outdated concept of race that we like to throw around. Then he is home free.
To give my personal impression, I think you are crying wolf where there is none, but I do appreciate your watchfulness and can see why you did it.
In Bayless I trust.
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That's why I said
maybe racist is the wrong word. Perhaps unneccesary is better. I still stand by my point that if I started refering to players in negative situations as african american people would get upset
I have nothing against Spaniards, in general
I do have a problem with a couple of Spanish guards (the erstwhile “Spanish Air-mada”) who have played NBA ball in Portland recently and complained about their roles and usage. (It is a team game, after all) I also have doubts that Portland’s first pick in the 2009 draft (another Spaniard) was a wise basketball decision.
I’m sure there are many fine people of Spanish descent who will disagree with me on these and other important issues. I bear them no ill will
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
It's kind of funny that
the string bean 6’8 Batum probably guards 1s better than either Roy or Fernandez… or probably anyone else on the team.
He guards 1s, 2s, 3s, and sometimes 4s better than anyone else on the team
Phase 1: Collect underpants
Phase 2: ???
Phase 3: Profit!
Nash completely torched Rudy in the playoffs
Nash also blew past Roy, Martell, and Miller.
The Blazers had two viable defensive options on Nash: Batum and Bayless. Bayless had some trouble with Amare’s picks, but otherwise he did a very solid job.
I just don’t see Rudy having the lateral speed to stay with quick PGs.
by upper left corner on Sep 1, 2010 7:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Nash blows by everybody.
I kind of hate to gauge defensive effectiveness by how well someone guards one of the 3 or 4 best point guards in the history of the game. That’s like saying someone isn’t a good defender because Michael Jordan put up 35 points on him.
I think one of the ways to guard Nash is not to pretund you can stop him single-handedly, but rather try to redirect his drives toward a help defender, thus perhaps limiting his options to pass. While he can score a lot, it is ability to create for his teammates that makes him most dangerous.
I think the most telling assessment of our defensive options was Nash himself
I DVRed the whole series and watched all the games again, over the summer, and focused on the PG play. I found it extremely interesting to see how Nash reacted to the different defenders Nate tried on him.
He showed some respect for Miller, but could get by him when he wanted to.
Nash attacked Webster, Rudy, and Roy the second they tried to defend him.
Bayless was largely able to stay in front of Nash, except when Nash called P&R plays with Amare. It was amazing how good Amare is at moving his foot, knee, or hip just enough to bump Bayless without getting called for the moving pick. It is a real art form, you have to watch it in ultra-slow motion to actually see his tricks.
Nic’s length really bothered Nash, but his sore shoulder really caused him trouble trying to fight through the picks. After the second game, he was rarely used on Nash.
by upper left corner on Sep 1, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Batum’s trouble with ball-screens is a documented weakness beyond just the Phoenix series. He tends to get hung up fighting through when asked to guard opposing points.
Do you think this is a technique thing or a physical limitation
Both, Nic and Jerryd, struggle at times with picks. They obviously have very different physiques. What do you think is the problem, and what can be done about it?
by upper left corner on Sep 1, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Inexperience probably. A young NBA player has never seen anything like a well-oiled screen and roll. In two years I’d expect them both to be much better at it.
Too young and too nice makes them too weak to fight threw screens
Nic especially. He kind of flails like a kid throwing a fit. We are too young and nice to deal with the veteran tricks of screens and really handling our opponents when we play D. Roy is too nice to really D up on someone unless it is a real pivotal play – then he may not get the call because he is not consistent with it in the game. We need to grow up menatally to handle the veteran tricks against us and deal them out ourselves appropriately. We need to grow up physically to embrace the contact without getting frustrated.
by LicketyBrindleDowntheMiddle on Sep 1, 2010 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
We need to grow up menatally to handle the veteran tricks against us and deal them out ourselves appropriately. We need to grow up physically to embrace the contact without getting frustrated.
This is why I have advocated adding veteran experience to Portland’s bench for the past 2+ years. You can’t expect the kids to learn how to deal with playoff intensity if they aren’t facing it from day 1 in practice
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Jerryd Bayless stunk at it in college, too, as is noted in the DraftExpress scouting ...
report of him. That, along with his short wingspan and overaggressive on-ball defense that leads to bad fouls, hinder him greatly on defense.
That aside, though, you made a good point about how Bayless (i.e., mesomorph) and Nicolas Batum (i.e., ectomorph) both struggle with screens in spite of having different physiques.
I’m not sure of the answer, either.
the reason people set picks
is because it makes the defender choose their poison. picks are only successfully defended by two players working together.
I say they are for climbing ice waterfalls.
In Bayless I trust.
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Jerryd is too handsy fighting through screens
Most of his perimeter touch fouls occur trying to slow his man down coming around the screen. When he learns to trust his help defender hopefully that will change
z
Good analysis
and it kind of supports my thesis that a guy like Nash will take what you give him. Neither Batum nor Bayless could defend him through a P&R, so he used that. So when you defend him, you have to have a guy that can stay in front of him, and get through or around a screen. (Good luck finding that guy on any roster!)
So I think when you guard a smart, immensely talented player like Steve Nash, you have to take the initiative and decide where you want him to go, and not let him dictate the movement. This requires ability, court vision, communication, planning, and tremendous BBIQ. Obviousy, it is much easier said than done.
I don’t think the proposed lineup of Roy, Rudy, and Nic in the back court can do that.
Yeah, Jerryd Bayless couldn't contain Steve Nash due to his inability to fight through a ...
screen and Nicolas Batum doesn’t have the foot speed — or aggressiveness as an on-ball defender — necessary to stay in front of Nash for an extended period.
This requires ability, court vision, communication, planning, and tremendous BBIQ. Obviousy, it is much easier said than done.
It takes 5 players in concert, with no slackers or mental midgets missing their rotation assignments
the Blazer’s roster has been upated at the SF position in the past 2 years and is now 180 better in these areas. But that’s still only 1 position out of 5
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
im not saying kirk didnt do a good job on d
I just wish por had a pg that went 12 and 8 on his bad days
#88
for all of the titles that those outstanding stats and penetration have won Steve Nash's teams
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Well that's just silly
Only 8 minutes earlier you said
It takes 5 players in concert, with no slackers or mental midgets missing their rotation assignments
Well lets see, going back 10 hours
my first point was that to defend a penetrator like Nash, it takes a wall of defenders working together
my second point was that penetrating PGs like Nash aren’t winning many NBA titles
But I guess you found those two takes to be silly? Steve on his best or worst day is a load to defend, but somehow the L*kers (and the Spurs) managed to knock his teams out of the playoffs in recent post seasons. I’d rather Portland emulate L*A or San Antonio defensively than to acquire a PG like Nash and let him run amok
This has been my silly li’l take for quite some time, now
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo?
Just because the L*kers can win with a below average pg at everything you want the blazers to have one?
The Chicago Bulls.
I’d venture to argue that the 1 might be the least important position on the court. With the right set of teammates, A floor spreading off guard can be as valuable as an upper tier point guard.
good point
if you have a top 5 player of all time at sg you dont really need a current top 10 pg
#88
Perhaps you would like to find examples where great PG's have won titles instead?
Isiah, Magic and…..
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Look, I'd love to have Chris Paul here as much as anyone.
With Paul totally out of the picture, though, I’d rather have a Kirk Hinrich type than an Andre Miller type at the 1 with Brandon Roy in the backcourt.
Rudy talk
Aggrevates the bejeebers out of me, dude torched his bridge with his effort in the playoffs. He’s dead to me.
by doomsdaymachine on Sep 1, 2010 4:16 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I understand the emotion involved with Rudy
But for the sake of our team I hope guys like Nate and Cho are trying to tell Rudy there is a role here for him, in case they can’t move him. I know I’d rather have Rudy helping us win that sitting on the bench or being sent home.
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by MadBlaze on Sep 1, 2010 4:18 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If he wasn't happy plying 24 minutes a game....
….how do you see him being happy playing half that?
It is hard to see Humpty Dumpty being put back together again.
by upper left corner on Sep 1, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
You're the one talking about him.
I really hope the players on our team can bond a bit better on the court and people like Rudy and Batum can get more involved in our offense as a result.
In Bayless I trust.
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Dave started this topic
he didn’t need to pose the lineup question with Rudy in the mix. Yes Rudy is technically on the 15 man roster at present, but his agent has made it very clear that Fernandez will not be reporting to fall camp in Portland, next month
So why discuss a hypothetical lineup that has little chance of being realized. Fernandez doesn’t want to be a Blazer, anymore. He is still under contract, but he could easily be dealt in the next 30 days, once Cho receives an equitable trade offer
In the meantime, I’m rooting for Rudy to play well in Turkey, but I’m not looking forward to him being on Portland’s roster because I don’t expect him to report to fall camp in Tualatin
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
So your point is that no one should be able to talk about Rudy since it bothers some people if anyone talks about him?
In Bayless I trust.
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talk about him all you want, he's currently playing in Turkey, after all
but to discuss him being a part of Portland’s lineup in the future is pointless. Even if he changed his mind (which I doubt he will) and reported, he’d have less of a role with Miller/Bayless/Roy/Matthews/Batum on the roster than he’s had in the past 2 years
Nothing better to write a main page article about? I doubt that. Most of the 2010-2011 Blazers are now back at the PF working out, so let’s chat about them, not the one who doesn’t want to be here
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
This is actually a discussion of a lineup, not just Rudy
It seems people are more interested in talking about Rudy though, which makes sense seeing as he would be the question mark in this hypothetical lineup. You seem to be one of the few who are shaking their head and rolling their eyes at it.
If you don’t like this topic of conversation, go choose from one of the many other that are up on the frontpage/in the fanposts or fanshots.
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My point fails to make it home here.
I’m sorry.
I was just trying to make the point that all of those people who are complaining at others talking about Rudy and making erudite comments about academia are awfully altruistic.
They know that it is worthless to talk about Rudy as a Blazer, yet they still do so, if only to save the rest of us from this fruitless waste of our lives.
In Bayless I trust.
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i hate when people are 4-16, 2-10,-5-17, 4-12
oh wait that was roy, miller, LA, and bayless in game 6 that rudy didnt give any effort in. Rudy the worthless scrub was 5-6 in less then 18 min, if he wasnt trying he should get a load more minutes if he can do that not even trying
#88
That's plain old boring shooting stats
What was his true shooting % when it was in the middle 3rd of the quarter and the wind was blowing NNW?
whats boring about
5-6 not trying vs 4-16, 2-10, 5-17, and 4-12 trying? maybe roy, la, bayless and miller should try less
#88
For all your arguments
The bottom line is Rudy does not want to play for the Blazers. When he wanted to play for us he was great. When Sergio went, Rudy got hurt, and wasn’t an all-star he quit being a Trailblazer. All his greatness which I agree with, does not make up the difference for not wanting to play and quit trying to be a team player.
Your 5-6 stats was after the game had been decided at the end of the fourth. If he had done that earlier to open the floor up the game may have been different. But, no he wouldn’t shoot because his feelings was hurt, he was homesick and nobody was treating him like a hero.
Your preaching to me about how great Rudy is won’t do much good. He is a terrific BB Player, but a lousy Trailblazer.
hg
oh there we go again
his 5-6 wasnt after the game was decided i the 4th. but i understand making stuff up to benefit your argument. her is a link to the play by play in game 6
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=300429022
now i will probably get banned again because your an idiot and make stuff up like frank isola and dont really have anyone to answer too and your lies just get repeated. but its okay i understand as you said i just look at the stats, i dont watch basketball, i dont happen to wake up early and watch fiba on espn360 and im not a disabled vet going to college with nothing better to do then watch bsketball al day. I just read the box score
#88
the part where you make stuff up
im sorry that i think jason quick and frank isola are correct about 1% of the time. rudy doesnt want to play nate ball, nate said he is willign to adjust his offense. not wanting to and not willing to are two different things. but since its okay to say what ever even when facts contradict what you say is okay with you. I had a personal call from rudy 5 min ago and he said he wants to play for portland,he read this post and thinks the roy-rudy-batum line up is a great idea. he also said he loves ben and dave but he wishes people wouldnt come on here and make stuff up
#88
I am not making up things
Everything I say is either my opinion, and i am entitled to my opinion, or what I have read. Now, I am suppose to quit believing what JQ says and believe what you say. people are not making things up they are stressing their opinions just as you are. Your words are not the truth and neither are ours. we just stress opinions. that is what the blog is for.
Are you saying that Rudy will play for the Trailblazers if they get rid of Nate? or did I misunderstood you.
Until Rudy calls me and tells me different I am assuming that we have Nate as our coach, therefore he is not going to be a Trailblazer. That way I won’t be making things up
hg
obviously not true
by your multiple times pointing out rudy was 5-6 in the 4th qtr when the game was over. its a flat out lie and im calling you out for you bs lies and you wont except it by saying the same thing over and over. maybe espn isnt a good enough link. yahoo doesnt break it down play by play for you so that wont help. maybe cbssports is good enough?http://www.cbssports.com/nba/gamecenter/playbyplay/NBA_20100429_PHO@POR
unless maybe your one of those fans like my dad that think down 3 in teh 2nd qtr is a blow out and you should just go home/turn off the tv
#88
by pipgras on Sep 1, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It is not a lie, It is my opinion.
Opinions are feelings not truth. Call me a lier all you want, but it is still my opinion that Rudy quit on the Blazers.
It seems that I have offended you, and I am sorry for that.
hg
Maybe you guys should start your own post
and see who can tell the most convincing lie. I’ll be the judge. Just as a reference I believe everything Alex Jones says
a disabled vet going to college with nothing better to do then watch bsketball
As a former vet I’d expect you to be particularly concerned about Rudy admitting he went AWOL on his platoon when they needed him the most.
Just take the shot, Fernandez! You’re wide open, you idiot!
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
a former vet? interesting.
when I was in Iraq and people had the same problem as rudy in the playoffs, I didnt go to a website and bash them. I tried my hardest to make sure they wouldnt have the problem again and worked with them not against them.
#88
Rudy and Martell were on fire and into that game
Nate could not adjust his mindset. He was going to go with Roy or go down with Roy no matter what. It was a respect thing with Nate. Not going to dump him to go to the obviously healthier and on Rudy and Martell in that game. Nate being Nate.
by LicketyBrindleDowntheMiddle on Sep 1, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
This is exactly the lineup I have been hopeful to see from these Blazers.
At it’s best, those three plus Oden & LMA offer our greatest potential talent to put on the floor.
Of course, defense is an issue, but we don’t have another two way guy outside of Batum on the perimeter. You can flip Rudy or Roy for Matthews, but then you end up with a troubled offense.
I say yes to the Rudy/Batum/Roy lineup. Rudy is similar to Kobe or Chris Paul on defense in that he ball hawks very well (lead the league in steal rate until he got injured). Batum is your everything stopper, and with Batum and Rudy hopefully shouldering a lot more of the offense, Roy can put in more effort on defense.
Quite simply, this lineup is our best possible future. It is a big disappointment to me that it may not happen.
In Bayless I trust.
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by staylost on Sep 1, 2010 4:17 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Not necessarily talking about this lineup specifically
But “most talent on the floor” doesn’t always equate to “best possible lineup.” There’s only 1 basketball and role players are essential
Which is why this lineup is awesome.
Rudy plays off the ball coming off screens. Batum plays off the ball coming off screens.
Roy has the ball in his hands.
I don’t see Rudy or Batum as true playmakers at the moment, so this fits perfectly.
In Bayless I trust.
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Blake is gone and Miller is off the floor in this scenario
So who’s going to make the timing pass to Rudy coming off a screen? Brandon? Uh-huh
Webster is gone and Rudy has one foot out the door. If there’s any Blazer who is going to be coming off a screen and flashing open with any regularity this year, it’s Roy.
Then, let the defense deal with his dual threat of jumper vs. crossover from the elbow area
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I disagree. I think Roy should play with the ball in his hands.
In Bayless I trust.
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the transition is already in the works
We saw some of this last spring, and Roy was interviewed saying he needs to work on his off-the-ball skills this summer. Less wear and tear = good for his career.
Does this mean that Roy will never take the ball on an ISO up top and cross his man over? No. It just means that Brandon isn’t going to be a full-time PG, that’s Miller’s job
I’m looking forward to finally seeing what a Bayless-Roy backcourt really looks like, without another PG having to be on the floor at the same time
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
How do you know that swapping Matthew's for Rudy causes troubled offense
We haven’t seen Matthews play in our offense, he can shoot the three and is getting better, Rudy can shoot the three, but isn’t improving. Matthews can shoot the mid range jumper and Rudy struggles with it. Rudy can get the alley oop, do we know that Matthews can’t. Lets just wait and see because Rudy doesn’t want to play for the Trailblazers and that makes Matthews better in my book..
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 5:00 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rudy doesn't want to play out the prime years of his basketball career being paid peanuts and only playing 25 minutes a game
I don’t blame him. There were undoubtedly promises made to Rudy that have been broken. There is shared blame here. The demonisation of Rudy is a bit out of hand at this point. He is not a bad guy, he is just someone who is unhappy in his job and either needs a change of scenery or a fresh start in Portland.
BTW Rudy was a net positive in terms of PER last season (in a bad year for him), Mathews was a net negative. One costs 9 million this season and the other costs 1 million. I know who I would rather have.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
by MadBlaze on Sep 1, 2010 5:13 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Yeah its flawed
I’ve yet to find an unflawed defensive stat though so I roll with what is out there.
In any case, I think Rudy is a better player than Matthews but its not that relevant anyway seeing as they will play different positions.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
Giving Rudy a pass?
I agree with you that Rudy isn’t a bad person, but he has handled this situation very, very poorly:
1) His play on the playoffs was completely inexplicable. You would have thought that he would really give his best effort when given the chance to start on a big stage. Instead, he absolutely stunk it up. Richardson completely torched him on offense. Rudy’s defense was awful. Nash attacked him repeatedly when Nate tried him defending the point. He passed up open shots repeatedly. He had hot stretches in two different games which made his series stats look semi-respectable, but for about 90% of the time he was a liability on both ends of the floor.
To me, it looked like he wasn’t trying, like he wanted out and figured if he played badly he could force the team to trade him. If true, that kind of behavior is inexcusable.
2) I have real sympathy for Rudy’s salary situation. He showed real commitment coming over here for significantly less money. But he has been given good minutes and an opportunity to earn a larger role. The reason he has largely been limited to being a spot up shooter is because that is the only role he has excelled at consistently. He doesn’t have an NBA caliber handle which effects his ability to create his own shot. He is completely lacking in upper body strength which limits his ability to absorb contact off the drive. His defense is suspect at the 2, and totally exposed when he plays the “1” or the “3.”
3) Mathews salary is $5.7 million. The fact that the payments are front loaded just means that he is owed less in the future. It is misleading and disingenuous to say otherwise.
4) Rudy’s expression of his unhappiness has been extremely unprofessional and unhelpful. He has done everything possible to destroy his trade value short of lighting himself on fire.
I don’t hate Rudy, but I don’t respect the way he has handled this situation, and because of that, I don’t have much sympathy for his plight.
by upper left corner on Sep 1, 2010 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
+1 Totally agreed
I believe Matthew was the result of Rudy wanting out, now that we know that he was trying to get out way before play-offs. If Rudy wanted to be part of the team, I don’t think there would have been a Matthews other then to help Batum at the three.
I also lost all respect for Rudy; not for wanting to be traded, but not trying in the play-offs and abandoning teammates. I know this is a dog eat dog society, but that is as you say unacceptable.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions
it's weird
I believe Matthew was the result of Rudy wanting out, now that we know that he was trying to get out way before play-offs. If Rudy wanted to be part of the team, I don’t think there would have been a Matthews other then to help Batum at the three.
Seems to me something had to happen between the draft and the offer-sheet to Matthews to support this line of thinking. Webster is basically the same player Matthews is, but on a more palatable contract (similar salary, but only two years instead of five). That we unloaded him for a player unlikely to contribute right away would seem to show that we felt the wings we had were good enough (Roy/Batum/Bayless/Rudy/Dante in spot minutes). Then we did a total 180 and decided that this wasn’t a good enough rotation, and we had to blow the bank on an additional backup.
Barrett said it today at noon
Webster was moved to provide more minutes for Batum, as should have been done. Nc needs to play 30-35 mpg
Matthews was acquired because the team needed a backup 2-3 who can defend well and stretch the floor
roster addition, by subtraction
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
There’s no indication that Matthews can handle the ball any better than Martell. He wasn’t asked to do that in Utah’s offense. As such, we don’t know if he can play backup two for us. Webster could defend just about as well as Matthews, and shot the three better (1% worse on twice the attempts last year).
We took one player who was due 10m/2 years and turned that into the same player but due 35m/5 years. Which guy have you made more of a commitment to? Which guy needs more minutes? Addition by subtraction?
The Blazers lost faith in Webster because he was inconsistent, especially coming off the bench.
He played better as a starter, but Batum had won that spot because he is likely to be rather special in the future. So Webster was getting traded at some point this summer to make minutes for Batum and to make a place for a (hopefully) more consistent backup 2/3. Matthews is slotted to be what the Blazers decided Webster couldn’t be, a backup 2/3.
We won’t know for a year or two if trading Webster for a draft pick (Babbitt) was better than waiting for a package deal (Webster+Rudy+?) for a veteran 2/3 or PG, although I wish we had got a more proven veteran than Matthews through a trade or the MLE. Matthews is more of a gamble, but he has a lot of determination and has beaten the odds, so he could turn out well.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 1, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
sure, I understand the rationale
I just think sticking with Webster (who’s performance was pretty much the same as Matthews at the same age) would’ve been the right move while you wait for an effective solution, as opposed to jumping in with both feet for a really flawed player in Matthews.
I think Matthews demonstrates just how impatient Paul Allen is to win now.
First he over-payed Camby to get him to sign an extension, and then he way over-payed for Matthews, including a huge up front payment.
If you also take into account Paul’s rare public statements (about wanting to move faster) when he hired Cho, I don’t think the Blazers are done dealing this year. If you factor in Cho’s repeated statements about being one or two players away (which I don’t think he would say unless he was tasked to get it done by Allen), and the reports about how active Cho has been working the phones the last few months, I wouldn’t be surprised if something a lot bigger than moving Rudy will still happen before the season starts. But it takes two or more to do the NBA tango, so it may take longer regardless of whatever Allen wants.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 1, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
There’s no indication that Matthews can handle the ball any better than Martell
The little video that I’ve seen re: Matthews so far has shown me he can penetrate and finish better than Webster, in the halfcourt. He’s a better transition player as well
If you’re talking about a 2-guard who can bring the ball up against pressure and help run an offense, then neither player is in that category. Batum is closer to becoming that kind of facilitator
Addition by subtraction refers to one player replacing 2 (Matthews, versus Webster/Fernandez) and bringing clarity to the rotation at the 2-3 while strengthening the team’s perimeter defense, something that Mike/Chad said was a new emphasis this offseason (and it’s about time if you ask me!)
Everyone is fixated on what Wesley can’t do versus Rudy or Martell, but I’m impressed with his intangibles and nose for the ball. I would have rather had a veteran like Mike Miller or Raja Bell, but I can get behind the Matthew’s acquisition because Portland needed a backup to Brandon and Batum who could defend SFs, so Roy wouldn’t have to, anymore.
Finally, we learned a week or so back that Marty wanted to be traded. So, why worry about what might have been, when it was clear that he wasn’t going to be satisfied or steady as a role player in Portland any longer. I don’t think the Rudy-Marty backup combo had any remaining shelf life in Blazer land; it was time to look for a role player who could compete to be a starter but still be hungry and active every night if he only played 20-25 mpg. That’s why Wesley fits and the other two don’t, anymore
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
rec, but i dont really care what kind of person rudy is
as long as he isnt a felon and is the best basketball player available he should play. he is a better sg then bayless and matthews, so at the very least he should be 2nd at shooting guard depth.
#88
by pipgras on Sep 1, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dead wrong!
Is your position that Nate played JB over Rudy because he was trying to hurt the teams chances? No, more likely you believe you know more than our head coach. Does it surprise you that most respect Nate’s opinion more than yours?
by 52therim on Sep 1, 2010 2:04 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
hmm, looks to me like the coach agrees with me. rudy played 23.2 min a game, bayless played 17.6 min a game. I guess im mistake but that looks a lot like the coach wanted rudy on teh floor more then bayless.
bayless 1304min in 72 games
rudy 1441min in 62 games
http://www.82games.com/0910/0910POR.HTM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=3204
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?playerId=3417
#88
that's pretty disingenuous
10 of his first 18 games Jerryd played less than 10 minutes (including 4 stints less than 5 minutes). That only happened three more times in the remaining 58 games. Bayless’s PT was clearly the case of there being no minutes for him behind Blake/Dre/Rudy at the beginning of the season, with his PT increasing as he earned more minutes and Rudy missed time to injury, and Blake was traded.
not pretty disingenuous
bayless is a pg and played equal minutes at sg and pg
rudy is a sg and played a very large % of his min at sg
rudy missed time because of injury and bayless played hid minutes while he was gone and he still played less then rudy.
Its stupid to compair the two, but not disingenuous just defending myself against the lies
#88
I’m not trying to kill Rudy here. I just think using Jerryd’s total minutes then saying it means the coach doesn’t trust him isn’t a fair representation.
Nate did give Rudy consistent playing time right through the end of the season, despite plenty of alternatives (he could’ve easily used Nic and Jerryd at the 2 and frozen Rudy out had he wanted to), indicating there’s a degree of trust there as well.
he is a better sg then bayless and matthews
Not for the 2010-2011 Portland Trail Blazers. No, he isn’t
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
good opinion
but i say he is so i win
#88
by pipgras on Sep 1, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's just business
In a profession where GM’s and owners cast away players at their whim, I don’t see why they have a right to complain when a player negotiates openly. Grow thicker skin. If Rudy sucks so bad then the blazers player assessment system must be wrong. Why denigrate a player you want to trade? The coaching staff is at fault here—it’s at odds with the player assessments being made at the front office, otherwise wouldn’t Nate play Fernandez more.
Portland’s in real trouble here. Wake up!!
It wasn't broken promises
It was a whole year of injuries to Rudy, I would think he would recognize that as the reason for his lack of PT and having a bad year. He wants to be a hi light star, but he has to stay healthy for that. He may be better in your book than Matthews but not in mine. I still remember the play-offs and no self respecting BB player would do that to his team mates and still consider himself a blue chip player.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions
how do you know its not broken promisses?
he never said what was promissed to him and neither has the PTB. no one ever said it was PT. he sucked for the first 5 games of the playoffs, so what roy sucked in the playoffs too. unless maybe im mistaken and 4-10, 2-7, and 4-16 are good.
#88
Do you just look at stats?
BRoy was limping around on one leg, do you really think that is the same as Rudy refusing to do his part by shooting the ball? He didn’t play good because he had been injured and never got his game back, that is no reason to take it out on his teammates by not trying and that is my opinion in the whole Rudy mess.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
yep i dont watch basketball i just look at the box score
or making the argument that rudys sucks and his whole career should be based on his crappy playoff performance is stupid. if your going to base rudy on 6 games why can i bse roy, la, bayless and miller on their shooting for 1 game? equally as stupid but using logic of others perfectly justifyable
#88
You should watch NBAtv
They say it’s because of PT every time they talk about him. They probably read it on twitter or oregonlive. Everything you read on the internet is fact. Don’t argue because I’m right
Rudy = mentally weak
The regular season was “one of those years” for Rudy with the injuries. Had to be really frustrating that the team was not skilled enought to find him like Sergio used to do and when he could have earned more time and trust from the team he got hurt. When he came back he was not able to establish a rythm. He then “checked out” instead of continuing to battle. He was not mentally ready when his time came and he was healthy enough to take advantage of it.
by LicketyBrindleDowntheMiddle on Sep 1, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions
The demonisation of Rudy is a bit out of hand at this point. He is not a bad guy, he is just someone who is unhappy in his job and either needs a change of scenery or a fresh start in Portland…I know who I would rather have.
I know who I’d rather have, as well. Why even make money an object, since it’s not possible for Portland to pay Rudy more than he is currently making, regardless? The issue is role and Matthews fills the backup 2-3 with better defense and equal perimter shooting. The fact that Portland had to offer the full MLE to Wesley is irrelevant to any future lineup discussion. He’s on the roster, and he’ll earn his PT. If the unlikely happens and Rudy reports to fallcamp, he’ll have fewer opportunities to play, and be less happy
Yes, I know which player I’d rather have. The “Fernandez experiment” was an epic failure in Portland. Rudy and his agent don’t want to try to make it work, anymore. The “divorce” isn’t final, but that’s nothing more than a formality at this point
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
check the chart
The "Fernandez experiment" was an epic failure in Portland.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=cT6pr
Getting the 11th most productive player in the draft with the 24th pick is an “epic failure?” And he’s only played two years. He’s actually sixth in WS/yr.
by atomiccafe on Sep 1, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Can he be traded for the 10th or the 12th most productive player in the 2007 draft?
Today?
Then those numbers have no meaning for his Blazer career or trade value, going forward. Except to Rich Cho as he attempts to line up the best trade possible
How much of “he doesn’t want to be here” do Blazer fans not understand?
Rudy fanboys remind me of a guy who is still trying to convince himself that his old girlfriend is still interested in him
The Doobie Bros song “What a Fool Believes” comes to mind
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don’t know what he’s worth now, but the two years of production he’s given us already vindicate the pick.
by atomiccafe on Sep 1, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with that
I also said from way before he signed that this was going to be “Petrovic, part 2” and I haven’t been a bit surprised by anything that’s transpired re: Rudy’s situation in PDX. (Roy is to Rudy as Clyde was to Petro)
Drazen was a big fan favorite, too. But his agent conspired to get him dealt to a team where he could start and he became an EC all-star, before his untimely death
I don’t think Rudy is as talented as Petro was, especially after seeing him up close now for the past 2 years. It’s just a shame that the Blazers dragged their feet re: moving Fernandez along, because he had a lot more trade value 9-12 months ago
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 1, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I"m confused
I’d guess Clyde Drexler can’t be traded for a bag of skittles. Does that mean his numbers have no meaning for his blazer career?
The qualm that I've got with Wesley Matthews has nothing to do with Rudy Fernandez, but ...
rather how he doesn’t fit at the 2 in this offense whatsoever. If management wanted a backup 2 for Brandon Roy who can handle the ball and run an offense for short spurts alongside a gunner in Jerryd Bayless, then Roger Mason, Jr. was the right fit for pennies on the dollar. Subsequently, if depth at the 3 — after trading Martell Webster and waiving Ryan Gomes — was still a concern behind Nicolas Batum and ahead of Luke Babbitt, then maybe signing Keith Bogans as a cheap role player would’ve been a cost-effective move.
It's the offense
not the defense that’s at issue. With no consistent two guard replacement off the bench teams then double LMA. I’m not sure Matthews defense is better enough to compensate for the offense he’s barely going to replace. If Rudy plays, and gets serious about defense (enough so that his offense makes a difference) then I don’t see how Matthews breaks into the lineup for many minutes.
As far as we know, the Blazers didn't make an offers to Mason
and Roger was one of the last remaining FAs in July. The Spurs let him walk, and there wasn’t a whole lot of interest around the league re: his services
I advocated for Mike Miller heading into FA, for the ballhandling reasons that you mentioned. Portland had something diiferent in mind, and it revolves around perimeter defense and not the playmaking capabilities of the 2nd unit backcourt. We’re going to have to wait and see what that work-around is, but my suspicion is that the rotation will be staggered and the coaches are going to try to keep either Roy or Miller on the floor as much as possible, whenever games are in doubt.
Bayless is the backup PG. I know you don’t think he can do the job, but that’s the role he’s going to be given. Matthews should not have to handle the ball as much as Fernandez was, and I’m OK with that. If these two young guards have Miller, Brandon or Batum in the game at the same time, then the halfcourt offense will be executed. If Cunningham is in the game with Jerryd and Wesley, then the score had better not be close, or the opponent had better be weak re: perimeter defense
I am still advocating a 3rd veteran PG to be added to the roster, just as soon as Rudy is dealt. Someone like Earl Watson. Not to replace Bayless, but to be available in case Miller is seriously hurt. If Dre suddenly isn’t available after the trading deadline and through the playoffs, that is Nate’s doomsday scenario
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Here's where the front office and the coaching staff have to be
on the same page.
Why deal for Matthews? Just play Babbit and Johnson and let them learn the game. Armon can defend ones and twos and protect Oden from having to confront a quick point guard one on one. Then either keep Martell and trade him during the season or sign an extension and trade him—what was the rush?
By trading Martel I think the organization devalued the rest of the roster.
I already answered this in more detail, above
First of all, Webster asked to be traded. That came out a few weeks ago
More importantly, Matthews will be an upgrade. You can disagree for now but Wesley will win his critics over. I have little fear of being wrong about this
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
For you, this is great. I am glad you are sure in your bravado.
But your feeling of confidence is not a rational way of converting people.
In Bayless I trust.
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I'm sure you'll bring it up time and again if you're right
And totally forget about it if you’re wrong.
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by MadBlaze on Sep 1, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nah, I usually remember things like this
and there are plenty of folks who don’t let me forget
I suggested that Outlaw and Blake were short timers after the Rocket’s series, how did that play out?
These days I have my doubts re: LMA and his future in Portland if a healthy Oden takes away a percentage of his touches, down low. Can the two of them co-exist in the same starting lineup? Does Cho have the same opinion of LMA that KP did? I’m not making any predictions, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Batum outlasts LMA in a Blazer uniform.
If I’m wrong I’m sure you and others will remind me
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
No doubt
But as you just proved, you like to bring up your ‘victories’, such as Outlaw and Blake and obviously the Rudy thing.
As I remember, you seemed relatively sure that Blake wouldn’t be moved due to Nate and KP’s fondness of him. Was that someone else?
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
You can feel free to remind me
I’m wrong all the time. Or so my girlfriend tells me. But we agree on the LMA part
What Matthews was paid is entirely relevant
Its called setting a precedent. You now can’t seriously start negotiations with Batum any lower than 8-9 a year, seeing as you gave an undrafted rookie with average efficiency and over-rated defense 7 million a year.
The Matthews deal is ridiculous and I’m don’t trying to find the logic in it.
P.S. Rudy is a far better perimeter shooter than Matthews. Try some context with those stats (volume, open vs. covered etc.)
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
by MadBlaze on Sep 1, 2010 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nic will never become a RFA who's told to go get an offer from the market, like Matthews was this summer
because Batum was selected in the first round, not undrafted like Wesley
I personally hope (and expect, really) that Nic plays well enough to be worth a max extension, when the time comes. He will be paid based on merit, though, not because of what his backup is earning
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
He will be paid based on merit, though, not because of what his backup is earning
There’s a salary-based pecking order within teams. Everybody involved with the Batum (and Oden and Bayless) negotiations will be aware of the benchmark the organization has laid down by paying an undrafted second year player what they did.
In any case
They have set the early bidding high on Batum, which is not wise IMO.
You have your view, I have mine (I do not want Batum getting the max)
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
If Nic plays at a high level, he should earn a appropriate salalry
and I would rather he play at a high level than plateau or be a disappointment
WARP decisions will have to be made every year, of course. This was just done re: Martell. Matthews could not have been acquired without offering him the full MLE, and I hope he plays at a high level as Brandon and Nic’s reserve. If he does, then no one will have anything to complain about re: Wesley, because he’ll have appropriate value whether he remains a Blazer or is flipped later to fill a different roster need
I would have been fine with Portland signing Raja Bell for 3 years, similar to what Utah paid him. But in Matthews they have a younger player who fits the Roy-Oden timeline. Perhaps next offseason Cho will target a veteran with the MLE, but it’s difficult to predict how the 2011 post season will go and how the impending lockout will affect FA signings
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Wesley Matthew will have to improve tremendously to become worth the full MLE
While it is likely he improves, I don’t see him being considered a steal at any point in the next 5 years. In addition, we are paying for his production as a rookie in a rather unique (or at least underutilised) system in Utah. Which is stupid to me. For example: what would Rudy have gotten following his rookie season if he’d been undrafted?
Paying that much for that long on such a small sample is just not good business practice. It could turn out to look like a genius move if he does everything you say but the logic is still flawed IMO.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
Everybody's guessing
but Rudy over Matthews, on offense, is the way I’d guess. It’s too much to hope that an undrafted player has that much hidden offensive promise. I’ll be happy if Matthews hits open shots and plays great defense.
To hit one of your points, Rudy and Matthews have similar career 3pt percentages, but they’re very different shooters. Rudy shoots at a much higher volume—266 3s last year compared to 165 for Matthews, and that’s with Fernandez playing fewer minutes. Rudy has a much quicker release, and he makes shots that Wesley won’t and shouldn’t take. Wesley’s ability to hit the open corner three is valuable, and I’m glad he can, but there shouldn’t be any doubt that Rudy is a much, much better shooter.
Exactly, from both a scouting and statistical perspective Wesley Matthews has now become a ...
glorified Martell Webster. No matter their vastly different paths entering the NBA — as Webster was straight out of high school, while Matthews is a second-generation player who spent all four years in college — they’re a similar fit in th high-low zone offense. For Matthews, he only played the 2 due to the Utah Jazz’s offense masking the deficiencies in its wings at creating offense for themselves — which is why I’m sure Raja Bell is happy to be back there — with the ball in their hands. With Utah, Matthews and Ronnie Brewer were both 2s; however, in Portland Matthews is a 3, while in Chicago Brewer is a 3.
Exactly, from both a scouting and statistical perspective Wesley Matthews has now become a ...
glorified Martell Webster. No matter their vastly different paths entering the NBA — as Webster was straight out of high school, while Matthews is a second-generation player who spent all four years in college — they’re a similar fit in th high-low zone offense. For Matthews, he only played the 2 due to the Utah Jazz’s offense masking the deficiencies in its wings at creating offense for themselves — which is why I’m sure Raja Bell is happy to be back there — with the ball in their hands. With Utah, Matthews and Ronnie Brewer were both 2s; however, in Portland Matthews is a 3, while in Chicago Brewer is a 3.
Rudy can get the alley oop, do we know that Matthews can’t.
Doesn’t matter, because we have seen video of Wesley driving against a halfcourt defense and finishing with a dunk at the rim, which is something that Rudy hasn’t done since the ’08 Olympics
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I get the feeling Matthews' offense is going to be a letdown.
Because he came out of a Sloan system and into a Nate system. Sloan’s systems create these openings for lesser players, Nate’s do not.
In Bayless I trust.
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Nate's system creates open jumpers for wing players
unless Matthews completely loses his shooting touch, I expect him to knock down a similar percentage of his open “jumpers” (his feet don’t get that far off the ground when he shoots)
Again, I don’t think that Portland acquired Wesley for his offense, neither do I think they’re counting on him to be anything more than a spot-up shooter in the offense. Matthews can catch the ball on the wing, penetrate and finish strong when the baseline is left unguarded, very similar to Martell. So I don’t expect any dropoff, but hopefully more consistency from WM than Webster provided
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
That's just it, though, for Wesley Matthews is at best a slightly better version of Martell ...
Webster — who’s not good himself — but the cost paid to sign him is an egregious amount for an extensive period. Matthews also doesn’t solve the backup 2 spot, with Jerryd Bayless being the best option there assuming Rudy Fernandez is dealt elsewhere.
by AK1984 on Sep 1, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
so far
It seems like I have to keep reminding you of this. Matthews has played one NBA season, and he was a highly successful undrafted rookie. His upside has not been determined, yet.
OTOH Webster is what he is, after 5 years in the NBA (one year missed due to injury) Martell didn’t have the benefit of college coaching, but he did have NBA instructors working with him as much as he requested, and I don’t expect him to make any more significant improvements in Minnesota
“Solving the backup 2” depends on what kind of backup 2 a team is looking for. From Born/Buchanan’s comments the offseason goal was to improve the perimeter defense, so they targeted Matthews. If you’re looking for Wesley to be a scoring machine or a playmaker then no, he doesn’t "solve’ that role.
Maybe you think that to earn 5-6 mil/year a player needs to be something more than what Matthews was last year? Well, perhaps. But that leads me back to my first point, the book isn’t written on Wesley yet, and he’s got the kind of perseverance and work ethic that doesn’t scare me off projecting him to becoming “worthy” of that egregious salary in years to come. If he helps Portland win future playoff series, then he’ll be worth that contract and more
Bayless is currently the team’s backup PG. For Jerryd to play SG on a regular basis he’ll need to be paired with a PG who can defend full-sized NBA 2s (Elliot Williams, in years to come?)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Webster was a big failure for the Blazers.
I don’t want to compare Matthews to him. Maybe I am more hopeful in Matthews in comparison to you than I thought…
In Bayless I trust.
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I think talk about a X-Rudy-Roy line up started when Nate used the Miller-Blake-Roy line up.
That line up made questionable the idea that the Blazers should not play Roy other than the SG position except for short stretches. Then the question became why not Miller-Rudy-Roy instead. But then it happened that Rudy didn´t start, but he was playing behind Blake and Bayless. Let´s pretend I can read Rudy´s mind: “Oh yeah, the big role they promissed me! I want to find a way out of here not matter how”. I still think he gave up in the play offs. That won´t be easy to forget or forgive.
Couldn´t Nate foresee that he was going to lose Rudy and his contribution? I think he couldn´t because he was fighting too many fronts at that time, trying to win games in a very dificult situation. But that is also Nate´s signature, he is always willing to give it all for a win now. Well, that´s probably every coach´s signature, that´s why teams don´t give GM duties to coaches.
Is now Nate going to try to get Rudy back by giving him a bigger role? I don´t think his defense is a problem. He was one of the best defenders at the start of the last season, even with pain in his back. Even Nate praised Rudy for his effort. He´s also a good defender for Spain. He´s now adding rebounds (8 per game in three games). I think Nate is willing to give it a try. But Nate has always had problems trying to make Rudy fit in. Do you remember Nate saying he couldn´t sleep a whole night trying to find playing time/role/whatever for Rudy? And he´s just not confortable with Rudy on the court when Rudy is not restricted to Nate´s playing book.
Is Rudy willing to play again for the Blazers and give it all if he gets a bigger role? Big if. There´s a saying in Spain about second marriages: “La Esperanza contra la Experiencia”, “Hope against Experience.” Let´s hope.
by amlmart1 on Sep 1, 2010 4:24 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Nate played Blake and JBay ahead of Rudy
because Rudy came to training camp with his back hurting and exhuasted from international play, Nate even said as much. He was trying to give Rudy as much rest as possible to heal up. In fact, his back never healed up until after surgery. can’t Rudy see as you say Nate should foresee that it was a year of unseeable events that caused Rudy his woes not broken promises. Rudy like BRoy and Batumm can’t play up to the their potential when playing injured.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you are correct in thinking
that they would like to keep Rudy and possibly give him a bigger role. But for him to be effective, he has to have a more relaxing/free flowing environment . Like you said, the play book will have to be disregarded at times to take advantage of any open court situations and if you think you have an opening, be it pass, back cut, crossover or shot, take the opportunity without question. There are other players on this team that could benefit from this as well. In particular Batum and Bayless and even LMA. The team will not be a legitimate contender until they can recognize these opportunities and take advantage of them. Nate’s got to free up his players so they can take advantage of their instinctive skills.
Rudy is a sensitive and somewhat spoiled guy, but when he gets his confidence he can definitely be an asset. No one can keep their play at a high level when they are on the bench and then, when they are used, limited to shooting the 3. Rudy mentioned that very same thing when he first signed on with the Blazers. He maintained he could shoot the 3, but did not wish that to be considered the best part of his game. In other words he had more to offer but needed some freedom to apply his skills.
Rudy is not a good defender, but neither is Roy. Defense is a commitment that takes energy and desire. Roy’s issue could be lack of energy simply because he works so hard on offense. Rudy’s issue can likely be helped fundamentally (which, in the past, has been a typical problem for European players on the defensive end) He has what I call "happy feet’ in that he often “hops” instead of sliding his feet into position. When you do this, you can be in between hops when your defender slips by you. Another fundamental is you guard the belly and not the ball or head. (the guy is going nowhere without his body) You do this with both arms extended one arm up and one down with open palms positioned towards the player. Simple stuff but never-the-less key elements to one on one defense.
Team defense (and transition) is another matter and is a problem for the whole team. They still have a long ways to go in this area and Rudy gets a bit lost here as well. But I see this stuff as correctable if given the attention and commitment. The 3 point shot wreaks havoc on otherwise sound defenses. It is why the 3 point shot has become such an effective weapon.(when the shots fall)
All in all Rudy’s situation is not so abnormal when you have a system that lacks flexibility and becomes regimented and robotic. Rudy will not be able to be effective in the type of role he had last year. But then again, the rest of the team, even Roy, could possibly benefit from a more free flowing atmosphere. You can’t overwork your star player and developing and utilizing the skills of your supporting cast is a way help this situation.
Look at Batum on his national team. If you have watched the 3 games, you will see that he has gotten better and contributed more with each game. The first game he was more of a Blazer and hung around the perimeter much like he does in Portland. But when he started to move without the ball and simply get more involved with the offense he has emerged as the star of the team. Rudy’s play also has been better and he’s starting to get his confidence back. Even though Batum is clearly the better player, both these guys step it up in a more free-flowing offensive style. Although these are examples taken out of context (slightly below NBA level of play), they should not be overlooked.
Should Rudy be rewarded with playing time if he returns to the Blazers? Well lets just say, we paid Rudy to play his game and in 2008-2009 he was a legitimate contributor for this team. So, if we do not get a solid return in a trade, it might be worth a new look (with a new approach) and see what develops.
It's all about defense......
by 67 on Sep 1, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Even though Batum is clearly the better player, both these guys step it up in a more free-flowing offensive style.
The difference is, Nic understands what his team (whether that be Les Bleus or Les Blazers) needs from him on a nightly basis and adjusts his floor game accordingly, without complaint.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I remember:
1.- Batum angry when he didn´t start his first game in the NBA.
2.- Batum talking, somehow disrespectfully, about “doing a Portland”.
3.- Monty and his conversations with Batum, trying to keep him into his role.
All these players have complaints and we only see the tip of the iceberg. Nate´s work is more tough than we can imagine. Even Roy, probably tired of hearing all that stuff, said at the start of last season on public that he was doing more sacrificies than anybody else. Sergio and Rudy have been a big disappointment because of the way they have complained, not because they complained.
by amlmart1 on Sep 1, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
But Batum is the golden boy!
He can do no wrong.
It's what you do with the opportunities
I like the fact that Batum has an edge, he’s a competitor who doesn’t settle for a marginal role, he desires to be great and expand his game. But he’s also the consummate team player, which is a very rare combination
The contrast with how Nic goes about his business couldn’t be more opposite than with Rudy. Maybe it’s because Nic is younger, and has had fewer Euro accolades than Fernandez? Rudy speaks of being “promised” certain things by Portland in 2008, and those promises not be met.
OTOH, Batum has voiced no such allusions, he just went out and grabbed the starting SF job as a rookie. Sure, Webster hurt his foot and that gave Nic his opportunity, but Batum earned the job by his play in fall camp, when he was quickly accepted by Roy and fit in well with the team’s other starters.
Rudy, OTOH, was already complaining about having to only shoot 3-pointers in the fall of 2008, and there was one mid-season meeting with the Blazer front office where he was almost traded during his rookie year.
So while it’s easy to see how Batum had a clearer path to a starting job because he played SF and Roy played SG, it can’t be overlooked that Nic brings more to the floor as a defender and “glue” player on offense, not to mention that he improved his outside shooting to exceed Fernandez’ marksmanship, while recovering from a right shoulder injury. Monty Williams had a lot to do with this, and to his credit Batum has accepted constructive coaching criticism, and has made adjustments to fit his game into Nate’s system. He doesn’t need touches or to handle the ball to be happy/productive, and when he was given the opportunity to catch, fake, dribble and shoot last spring he showed that he had already mastered this skill. I don’t have to tell you that Rudy lacks this mid-range game
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
This is a fair point about the differences between Nicolas Batum and Rudy Fernandez. It ...
puts Nate McMillan in a poor light, though, since it further exposes him as rigid and unable to make adjustments. Yet, that’s not all on McMillan, because the front office shoulders some of the blame by bringing in players who clearly were going to be poor fits.
And this is what I think is the main barrier for the Blazers right now.
Putting together the talent they have in a flexible system that best takes advantage of each of their strengths, rather than driving players out. But maybe I fear for nothing. We haven’t dropped Rudy for nothing yet.
In Bayless I trust.
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I've compared Portland to the Spurs in the past
How often does RC Buford bring in players that don’t fit Pop’s system?
(Not often, and when San Antonio makes a mistake re: a player they typically move him along PDQ)
this is a philosophy that former Spur asst GM KP didn’t bring with him to the Blazer job. But the Spurs don’t have an owner like PA with his fingers in the roster mix, either
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I think when you rebuild a team
from scratch like the Blazers did, it is a little bit live and learn. (hopefully Nate is still learning)
You have to develop an identity to look for and acquire the players that presumingly might fit. I think it has become an issue with Nate along with KP declaring their identity for this team. (Even though Nate’s style probably was a reasonable fit when they had lots of youth and decided to build the team around Roy)——but because most other doors were automatically closed, it started to expose several weaknesses to robotic and predictable play.
It’s funny how Nate is in his own category of coaching philosophy. Even the coaches who have a system that expects players to adhere too, never let the system dominate so much that players natural instincts and abilities get bottled up and not used.
Nate has been so entrenched in his unimaginative slow-down style that many players get reduced to kick out safety valves that are up against the shot clock. I’ve seen many times where one or two guys just stand there and watch the play. And the idea of not giving your offense what the defense can give it ( an easy hoop in a quick hitting transition play) is just plain stupid.
It's all about defense......
by 67 on Sep 2, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I agree with you in almost everything you say.
I was just trying to add some other perspectives. Probably it looks like nit picking. Sorry for that. I appreciate your knowledge.
I would have to say it might be a little deeper than that
Even though what you say about taking responsibility for your play and attitude is a definite difference between them. However, I think it is more the character or nature of the person. Nic has plenty of confidence and the swagger that goes along with it. Rudy is sensitive and somewhat spoiled. This character could be natural and/or a product of their basketball background. The atmosphere of being with his friends and Spanish teammates gives Rudy a comfort zone of confidence. Playing time in the states within a less structured and more open court system could give him a better opportunity to prove his worth.
Nic’s biggest asset coming into the NBA was his defensive awareness and a commitment to it. (not to mention the near perfect physical characteristics) There is always a place for these kind of players on any team.
Rudy’s got mental baggage (his admiration from his home country gives him the confidence and the comfort zone he desires) He wants to be home, so this will likely end his NBA career—-
It's all about defense......
by 67 on Sep 2, 2010 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Couldn´t Nate foresee that he was going to lose Rudy and his contribution? I think he couldn´t because he was fighting too many fronts at that time, trying to win games in a very dificult situation. But that is also Nate´s signature, he is always willing to give it all for a win now. Well, that´s probably every coach´s signature, that´s why teams don´t give GM duties to coaches.
This^ rec
And he´s just not confortable with Rudy on the court when Rudy is not restricted to Nate´s playing book.
for every slick entry pass there was a face-palming turnover where Rudy tried to force a pass into traffic
Is Rudy willing to play again for the Blazers and give it all if he gets a bigger role? Big if.
The proverbial bridge has been burned. Rudy will stay quiet now (or say the right things) because the NBA will fine him if he doesn’t. Cho will make sure he receives the correct value for a player who received 24-25 minutes per game on a contending team. I expect the deal to be made this month.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I've been hoping for this lineup since Batum showed us he was good.
In Bayless I trust.
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Rudy is the 5th guard on this team behind Roy, Miller, Mathews, and Bayless.
Yes, Bayless outplayed Rudy all last year and has shown constant improvement while Rudy’s play has regressed.
Miller, Mathews and Bayless are better defenders and all three are better compliments to Roy and Batum. If Rudy is still on the team, he’ll be lucky to play at all. At least Rudy is smart enough to see the handwriting on the wall. Its no wonder he is desperate to move to a team wth less competition in the backcourt.
all last year?
no. Bayless sucked for 60% of the regular season. Rudy only sucked for about 40%.
and Bayless WAS bad, until the ending/playoffs
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
by collectiveshane on Sep 1, 2010 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
and bayless wasnt even good in the playoffs
he had a few good games, a few okay games and game 2 was horrible
#88
so we hold it against rudy only?
or do we say everyone sucked part of the playoffs? I just dont see why people have changed their opinion on rudys basketball skills based on the playoffs and his mind. he might of had a crappy playoffs and be an idiot, but that small sample size where he was given a completely new role and was expected by fans to be roy (a top 10 nba player) doesnt change what rudy is (in my opinion, a very solid backup sg or starting pg just based on how he compliments roys skill set)
#88
by pipgras on Sep 1, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of course it’s a small sample size. I’m more saying Bayless was generally pretty good in the playoffs, and Rudy was generally relatively poor. Despite this, I would’ve been for giving Rudy playing time and a chance to return to his rookie form. Unfortunately, the front office doesn’t agree with that, so Rudy sadly looks to be the odd man out once again.
I have no real problem with Rudy, and also think it was unwise for the Blazers to sign Matthews. If they really knew the Rudy situation was untenable and wanted to get a backup wing who can’t dribble, the right play was to keep the cheaper Martell.
Is Matthews’ defense that good? Everybody points to the Nuggets series, but holding Melo to .564 TS on .32 USG doesn’t exactly scream “stopper” to me.
Yeah, Wesley Matthews also hacked a lot during that series.
He got roasted, toasted, and burnt to a crisp.
But showed potential
Who was the last true ‘lockdown defender’ in the league during his rookie year? Olajuwon? Russell?
if you can start for Jerry Sloan in a playoff game as an undrafted rookie
you can defend in the NBA
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
it's been ten years since the Jazz have had a defense better than 10th in the league
Sloan’s a coach who teaches grit and hustle and all, but he is not Skiles, Fratello, van Gundy, Brooks or Mike Brown as a defensive coach. He also teaches his players to hack like crazy, which is a terrible habit. The Jazz are pretty much always one of the worst five teams in the league in terms of FTA/FGA ratio (and more often than not the very worst).
Exactly, Jerry Sloan is an offensive-minded coach rather than some ...
defensive guru or whatever. On defense, I’d take JVG or Mike Fratello over Sloan any day of the week.
Defensive effort =/= defensive production
Bayless is an example of that also.
Sloan had to work with what he had last year after they traded Brewer. I’d suggest Matthews was the most likely to give his all on that end. Doesn’t mean he was particularly good at it….which is what the stats suggest.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
But JBay was trying and Rudy was crying that is the difference.
I don’t care if Rudy missed a 100 shots as long as he was trying for the team.
hg
maybe you should watch middle school basketball
i care about production, i would much rather have a guy go 5-6 not trying then a guy go 0-100 trying
#88
But Rudy went 0 for 0 most of the time because he wouldn't shoot.
He only went 5-6 in the fourth qtr to show that he could if he wanted too. that is unacceptable.
hg
espn says your full of it
but its okay, your not the only one that makes up facts on here, maybe you and two4larue can start a make stuff up to bash rudy club. I agree that his passing up the shot was a problem, but he was 2-2 in the 2nd qtr and 3-4 in the 4th qtr. didnt play in the 1st qtr, cant really shoot or score when you dont play, play 7:12 in the 2nd qtr, didnt play in the 3rd qtr, once again hard to do anything but cheer from the bench, maybe he gave up on cheering? I would give up on cheering too if the people playing in front of me where playing like garbage. 10:38 in the 4th.
#88
by pipgras on Sep 1, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
where was Fernandez in game 6 against Houston in 2009?
If we’re going to pull one playoff game out of the rest and use that as a reason why Fernandez should be back and given a larger role, then I’ll choose that one. Nate started Fernandez against the Rockets, and Rudy performed poorly in an elimination game.
I tend to put more stock in post season performance than in regular season stats, because I want players who have shown the ability to step up when the pressure is on and deliver. Rudy did this for one quarter last April, when his team was behind in a playoff game. If he had a track record of NBA success in big games then your support of him would be justified. But he doesn’t.
Fernandez mentally “moved on” from Portland last winter, and he has admitted as much when interviewed in Europe. He has stopped thinking of himself as a Portland Trail Blazer, and his fans need to accept that this is the reality of the situation
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Nate traditionally doesn't prepare his players in the regular season for expanded roles he suddenly gives them in the postseason.
That was a flaming bag start.
In Bayless I trust.
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Really, Nate didn't have much of a choice
When he started Batum, Adelman put the ball in Artest’s hands and Ron backed Nic down
Outlaw was playing with his deer in the headlights expression
Blake had 4 bad unforced turnovers in game 6
So Rudy was in good company as Houston boat-raced to an easy win. It just goes to show how cherry-picking a playoff performance can cut both ways. If Rudy was the special kind of player his fans think he is, he would have grabbed the bull by the horns from the beginning of one of his playoff starts and been a difference-maker who contributed to a Blazer’s win. To put the blame on Nate for Fernandez’ short career in Portland is a cop-out. Amlmart1 said it best, above
Couldn´t Nate foresee that he was going to lose Rudy and his contribution? I think he couldn´t because he was fighting too many fronts at that time, trying to win games in a very dificult situation. But that is also Nate´s signature, he is always willing to give it all for a win now. Well, that´s probably every coach´s signature, that´s why teams don´t give GM duties to coaches.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Good points.
The only point I am trying to make is that to blame Rudy for that start is as unfair as blaming Nate for starting him.
In Bayless I trust.
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my whole point is that 1 game doesnt make the player
rudy has been a basketball player long before he was a blazer and not much has changed. but some how he has a bad playoff series and you say hes the worst player ever and should be traded for nothing. I dont really care if hes a blazer or a euro player, i dont care if it was cunninham or bayless making the same statements to the media. as long as he shows up and does his job who cares what he thinks as long as he performs.
#88
but some how he has a bad playoff series and you say hes the worst player ever and should be traded for nothing
This hasn’t been my stance. I’ve been lamenting that Portland wouldn’t receive full value for Fernandez for more than 12 months because they waited too long to deal him. His trade demands weren’t really news this offseason, he’s made noise (via Spanish websites) about being unhappy almost from the beginning of his Blazer career. But the local Portland media downplayed these reports and said that he was a pleasant player to deal with, etc.
The Sun’s series was the “final straw” for many Blazer fans (including Paul Allen, I suspect) when they saw Rudy pass up wide open shots and get blown by on defense by J-Rich and Barbosa, and that disappointment (coupled with his trade-me-or-else comments) has led to the backlash.
For Portland’s benefit, I hope he plays well in Turkey and his trade value is restored to a level where Cho can get a decent return. For Fernandez’ sake, I hope that deal comes as soon as possible, because he’s worn out his welcome in PDX
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
why did Rudy get that start vs Houston?
the worst player in the series against Houston wasn’t Travis Outlaw, Steve Blake, or Rudy Fernandez. It was Nic Batum.
by atomiccafe on Sep 1, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
you don't need a whole bagga chips
if it’s just a loaner. Be kinda greasy and icky to give Rich Cho a handful of potato chips, so I thought skittles would be a good place to land.
Who's to say there is a 1-thru-3 on the floor?
If we’re talking about a specialized lineup…
why not use this against team with either big, post-up PG’s (Tyreke Evans?) who Roy could guard or all pass/spot-up PGs (Derek Fisher) that Fernandez could guard and patrol the lanes and collect cross-court passes, which is his specialty? We have a big defensive hole against guys like Nash/Paul/Rose anyhow, so why bother with a specialized O-lineup with them on the court?
M, period. Fresh, comma.
Personally
I would prefer to see Batum, Roy, Miller. I think Batum would prefer to see Batum, Roy, Miller, I think Roy would prefer to see Batum, Roy, Miller, I think Miller would prefer to see Batum, Roy, Miller, I think Nate would prefer to see Batum, Roy Miller, I think Rudy would prefer to see Batum, Rudy, Miller. The only time I see the lineup of Batum, Roy, Rudy being viable is if Batum is playing the point. I don’t think Batum wants to play point, I don’t think Roy wants Batum to play point, I don’t think Miller wants Batum to play point, I don’t think Nate wants Batum to play point, I don’t think Rudy wants Batum to play point as Batum is not from Spain. I would like to see Batum play point, but I think I have given anyone who reads this post ample reasons to not give a pooh about what I think.
Not being able to handle a hangover will lead to a level of maturity.
Wheels to Jason Quick
by Kampeska on Sep 1, 2010 7:15 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
It makes sense
I want to see Batman play PG for at least a few minutes or at least a point forward facilitator. Is that what you call them? Like Pippen.
I don’t know if BRoy would like to see Miller, BRoy and Batum as much as he would like to see a PG that would be more willing to give up the rock. Hopefully that is in the past though.
What I would like to see also, is a three player line-up that would help the bigs on offense and defense. by getting quality passes to them.
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions
“What I would like to see also, is a three player line-up that would help the bigs on offense and defense. by getting quality passes to them.”
- Amen -
put a body on 'em
That was supposed to read: - Amen -
I guess you get a strikethrough when you do double-dashes on each end of a line of text.
Note to self: always preview.
put a body on 'em
What I would like to see also, is a three player line-up that would help the bigs on offense and defense. by getting quality passes to them.
Ditto. That lineup would include Andre Miller, by necessity. I have hopes that Batum will develop into a decent post-entry passer as well. Yes, Fernandez is creative in this area, but his passes often go awry (as his low A/TO ratio indicates)
More of Camby on the floor with a healthy Oden would also be helpful, re: the high-low post
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
the blazers and the coaches will never start roy at pg for any extended period of time
roy is good but he just is not a pg
it seems like we're outfoxing ourselves with this lineup
(1) The minute I see that group on the floor as the opposing coach, I am double-teaming the ballhandler at midcourt and forcing him to make a decision. Remember how we almost lost the Pistons game and gave up 20 points of our lead vs. the Bucks while Miller was out of the game and they pressed us? Brandon, Nic and Rudy are all worse ballhandlers and decisionmakers in a broken floor than Blake was.
(2) Isn’t Andre either our third or fourth best player? Why run weird lineups to get him off the floor and get an inferior player on in his place?
rudy isnt that bad of ball handler
he is a bad decision maker with the ball around the basket taking circus shoots when he could just pass it out for and open shoot. but, he has played bringing the ball up for DKV joventat and in international play with spain so I guess maybe yor just a better coach then anyone who has faced him yet
#88
I excuse myself from comment.
I don’t think I meet the criteria of Brilliant Basketball Mind. Now if Dave would of said, " I toss it out to you rabid jackals to tear at like a slaughtered hare." I’d say, I’d try it.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
As long as you can google
True shooting %, Usage, or some other advanced stat you don’t even have to have watched a basketball game in your life to consider yourself brilliant around here
A little Run DMC action
Would work as those three would die under the press and can not defend a bigger opposing lineup
That's my NBA Live Starting 5
Rudy, Nico, Roy, Oden, Aldridge.
Defensive assignments would depend on the other team not position. Nico is going to defend the best player on the other team (PG, SF, SG) and you fill Roy and Rudy in.
The been thing about this lineup… I really like having Rudy on the court with Oden. I remember 2 years ago drive after drive where Joel just couldn’t handle the pass. Rudy eventually stopped driving because these possessions became turnovers. I think Rudy’s creativity and shooting with shine with Greg and make Greg a better player.
by Jblaze on Sep 1, 2010 8:17 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Have you compared Rudy's 3 pt % with Wesley's?
Also, WM can guard Kobe or Melo while Nic pressures the ball.
D wins titles.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 8:37 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
you have to account for attempts
37% on 6.5 3pt/36 > 38% on 2.9 3pt/36.
by atomiccafe on Sep 1, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah. This is what I read at BlogaBull:
Volume counts as much as efficiency does. A guy who shoots 38% on 8 3-pt attempts/36 minutes is more valuable than a guy who shoots 41% on 4 3-pt attempts/36 minutes.
Over his very short career, Rudy’s averaged 2.7 made 3-pointers/36 min, shooting 38.7%. Over Reggie Miller’s career, he averaged 1.9 made 3-pointers/36 min, shooting 39.5%. Over Ray Allen’s career, he averaged 2.4 made 3-pointers/36 min, shooting 39.6%.
So, when compared to the two greatest 3-pt shooters ever, Rudy’s 3-pt% is less than 1% lower while launching at a higher volume. i don’t see how you can look at that and say Rudy’s anything but a great 3-pt shooter.
There are many facets of the game where statistical analysis falls short of painting an accurate portrait of what’s going on. 3-pt shooting is not one of them. It’s pretty easy to tell who’s a good 3-pt shooter and who isn’t. You simply count up the makes and misses.
There are many things that Rudy is nowhere near as good at as Miller and Allen were. But in one area of the game, 3-pt shooting, Rudy matches up with anyone. Period.
At the rate he was going his rookie year (2.9 made 3-pointers/36 min), if he’d averaged 36 mpg and played all 82 games, he would’ve made 238 3-pointers, which would’ve been the 6th highest single season mark ever. If he’d averaged 41 mpg and played all 82 games (lofty expectations, but not something that’s never been done), he would’ve broken Ray Allen’s single season record for the most 3-pointers made. There is no question that Rudy Fernandez is really, really good at shooting 3-pointers.
Part of my point is
that small % difference doesn’t make up for his horrible D and the pressure it puts on the rest of the team, including GO, who needs to be in there to wear the other team down.
Also, Ray Allen and Reggie Miller have/had much more complete NBA games and were in a position to be featured on their teams. Rudy needs to come off the bench and be productive and he was too injured or whiny to do that when we needed him most. Adios, Rudy.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
nobody's saying Rudy is Ray Allen
but Rudy’s shooting is leagues more valuable than a low volume guy like Matthews or Bogans. Double attempts/36 isn’t a small difference, it’s huge.
Matthews is, what, 41% from the left corner?
You don’t think the D has to worry him? Also, Wesley can put the ball on the floor and finish like a REAL NBA player, unlike Rudy, who is now allergic to the rim.
Wesley is better than Rudy and Marty combined IMO.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope, Wesley Matthews is roughly the same as Martell Webster -- which isn't ...
saying anything, because they’re both subpar players — while Rudy Fernandez is just a poor fit here. Now, Keith Bogans isn’t better than Matthews or Webster; yet, he’d’ve been a more cost-effective option as a backup 3 behind Nicolas Batum and ahead of Luke Babbitt. Regarding Matthews, it seems like Larry Miller, Mike Born, and/or Chad Buchanan showed no understanding of fiscal prudence or how Utah’s offense made him look better than he is on the whole.
by AK1984 on Sep 1, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree to drink a beer
and respectfully disagree.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Rudy is due to have a break-out season.
#52
by CatMan2 on Sep 1, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd do anything to get rid of folks using RAMBO
uber lame yo!
#52
by tominhawaii on Sep 1, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
a lot of folks have tried to get rid of RAMBO
but he keeps coming back for more
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Miller cannot shoot
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
by collectiveshane on Sep 1, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Rudy can't post up
or run a half court offense
or run a fast break
or know his opponent’s offensive tendencies and set the team’s defense accordingly
or do the dozens of other little things that make real NBA PGs valuable
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
now we are bashing rudy because he cant post?
neither can 80% of the other sg and pg in the nba.
the spanish national team disagrees that rudy cant run the fast break and occasionally the half court offense
#88
Team Espana doesn't play in the NBA
so it really doesn’t matter to me how they utilize Fernandez
my response was to collectiveshare re: Miller’s outside shooting. Andre is a superior PG to Fernandez in all other areas that define the position. Fernandez is a shooting guard. He can’t defend PGs, and he doesn’t have the handles to play PG on offense. To speculate about him being in a potential lineup with Roy and Batum was a huge waste of time, that seems to be stretching into it’s 3rd day
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
and your here all 3 days
must not be so pointless, almost 500 comments and still being commented on. maybe if you took of the 50 or so i hate rudy posts you and bk added it would be less but still worth talking about for many people.
#88
I doubt that he truly hates Rudy Fernandez, as well as is correct that it's not all that ...
practical to assume he’ll be with the team come the regular season. So yeah, I’ve got to agree with him in that regard.
Most NBA teams now feature lightening quick guards.
Rudy’s usefulness is diminished greatly by that fact.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 8:35 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Being a half step slower doesn't help though.
Rudy’s D is awful.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Batum guarding 1s
I agree with others who’ve noted that in a Roy, Rudy and Batum lineup we can have Batum guard the point while Rudy takes the 2 and leaves the 3 to Brandon. Roy has been more than competent (well…maybe just competent) in guarding some 3s, with the exception of star caliber scorers. And Batum already does spot duty against PGs. While this doesn’t make up for Rudy being a sub-par defender, or Brandon I guess, it might help solve the match up problem while still giving us our size advantage on the offensive end.
We should prioritize keeping B-Roy fresh over accomodating a whiny bench guy.
B-Roy gets worn down when he has to check guys bigger than he.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
and when Brandon gets worn down
he strains muscles, like the hamstring that cost him a month last season?
Roy has lost weight, that’s a signal that he’s no longer going to defend SFs, except on a switch
this is good for his career, and good for the Blazers
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
remember the year jordans bulls started 3 similar players...really getting jordan at point
also i would take rudy out and replace with mathews or someone…imo rudy sux
is Rudy still a Blazer?
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
on paper? yes
in his mind? no
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Rudy's interviews in July were published on this website
So no mind-reading is required. Just suspension of disbelief in your case, I guess
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I WIN, you troll
August 31 2010- Rudy Fernandez: “I’m still a Blazer.”
http://hoopshype.com/rumors/tag/portland_trail_blazers
#88
no thanks
i will defend current past and future players against poster who flat out lie to get a response. which is exactly what a troll is, someone that says something with no merit to get an emotional response.
#88
"Flexibility" is the key
I am not a particularly big fan of Dave’s suggestion (I’ll get to my objections in a minute). I do, however, think there is merit in the idea of using several alternative lineups. Here is my thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of several different lineup possibilities for our perimeter players:
1) Miller, Roy, Batum:
Strengths: good ball handling; multiple playmakers; balanced scoring; excellent penetration.
Weaknesses: Miller isn’t very effective off the ball (although he is good on the offensive boards); limited 3 pt shooting may clog the lane; ability to stop penetration may get the bigs in foul trouble.
2) Roy, Rudy, Batum:
Strengths: excellent 3 pt threat, should give Roy space to drive. Great length on defense.
Weaknesses: limited ball handling skills, may be susceptible to full court pressure or a trapping defense; high turnovers, Rudy makes pretty plays, but his AST/TO is worse than Bayless’ and much worse than Miller’s; limited playmaking, no real PG on the court; inability to stop penetration on defense.
3) Roy, Mathews, Batum:
Strengths: Outstanding defense and flexibility for matching-up with opposing lineups; good size; solid 3 pt shooting, should provide decent spacing.
Weaknesses: limited playmaking, may make it difficult to involve the front court, may tend to be very iso heavy; limited ball handling, may be susceptible to defensive pressure.
4) Bayless, Roy, Batum:
Strengths: solid ballhandling; multiple playmakers; decent 3 pt threat (depends on if Bayless continues to improve); multiple scoring threats; good speed; should be better at slowing penetration than lineups 1 and 2.
Weaknesses: less length and defensive flexibility than lineup 3; Bayless’ inexperience, questions about court vision and decision making.
I think all four of these lineups have at least some potential, and all are probably worth experimenting with in practice and pre-season. Having said that, I think the lineup that includes Rudy is the most problematic, in my mind. I think it is the most likely to struggle defensively and the most likely to result in foul problems for our bigs.
I think both lineups 3 and 4 have real potential for the periods of time when Roy wants to take over prime playmaking responsibilities. A lot depends on how Bayless progresses as a defender, shooter and decision maker. It is not news that I think this may ultimately prove to be the teams best long-term lineup.
In any case, I like the fact that the roster as currently constructed gives Nate lots of flexibility depending on match-ups and game situations. He can go big or small, he can go offensive minded or defensive minded. He can stress penetration against teams that don’t have good interior defense and he can emphasize 3 pt shooting against teams packing the lane or using a zone. Lineup flexibility should prove to be a very important asset for this years team.
by upper left corner on Sep 1, 2010 8:47 AM PDT reply actions
In time I could forgive Rudy
if he just came in, kept his mouth shut and played his heart out. He still has something special to bring the team and the fans. If Nate can figure out a way to bring him into the fold and keep team chemistry high, my respect for him goes up.
I don’t know why Andre gets so much disrespect. The guy can play.
Yes, Rudy could us some good advice
his “agent” is a disaster. He has some work to do on his attitude, serious, big money at stake, carrer work.
Not to worry about Andre, we did give him MVP last year…. lots of us appreciate him. I hope Nate is included.
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
Irony
Miller and Fernandez have the same agent (Andy Miller)
And Andre was also complaining about his role, last December (Spear’s article)
The difference is what Andre did after that time, compared to Rudy. Apples and oranges
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Agents. Ugh. Who needs 'em.
They’re like that guy at work who is always pointing out to his superiors how he is the guy who deserves the promotion (or a raise). Annoys his coworkers when they catch wind of this behavior. Sometimes backfires. But often this is the dude who gets the promotion (or raise) while the guy quietly doing his job and hoping he’ll get that promotion (raise) is often shafted.
It’s too bad.
well, yeah,
but I gotta believe that Rudy’s agent has a lot more influence on his behavior, than he does on Miller, who is a veteran who knows his way around, and has a lot better idea who he is and what he can do in the NBA. Really quite a defferent kind of “complaining”.
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
I've wanted to see that lineup
but I’m not sure if it was ever tried out.. I think with Aldridge and Oden in there with them, you would have 4 knock-down shooters, one GREAT rebounder and a couple excellent defenders. With Andre in there you lose a shooter, and that closes up the court a lot.
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
First he puts out a Fire Nate post and now a Start Rudy post
Very interesting.
As far as Rudy goes he’s the weak link that breaks the chain under difficult use. Since it’s not a matter of national defense or world peace it doesn’t really matter and the fans can like who who they want. It just doesn’t seem right to give critical starter minutes to a wet noodle when you have work horses like Bayless and Matthews who can carry the load. Those are the kind of players who can make your team stronger over the course of a long season not just by their play but also in their attitudes and ethics. In fact, we have a second fan favorite player who hasn’t helped us over the course of an entire season. I guess we’ll find this year what he’s made of won’t we. You already know that Rudy’s brain is composed of beach sand Campari and pictures of underwear models and he really should be playing in Barcelona or Mallorca not the NBA. The sooner this organization forgets about Rudy the better.
nut matthews shut down melo in the playoffs
melo was garbage he only had better then average at points, st%, reb, stl, reb and assists.
#88
rite?
the persistent myth of Matthew’s shutdown “D” on Melo is one of the funniest BEdge Facts around.
Yeah, Melo averaged 30.7 pts/game in 5 games.
Who said Matthews shut him down?
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 1, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
^^ in 6 games
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 1, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
if Jerry Sloan kept running Wesley out there against Melo
then that’s good enough for me, regardless of what the stats say
the Jazz defeated the Nuggets, did they not? I’d say that Matthews was effective as a team defender in a playoff scenario against a very tough opponent
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
If we were really looking for a Sloan protege, Ronnie Brewer was out there at 13/3 and he’s a far superior offensive player to Wesley Matthews.
and yet the Jazz dealt Brewer to stay under the luxury tax threshold
then resigned Bell for 3/9 after they refused to make an offer to retain Matthews
I would’ve settled for Raja, even at his age. The Blazers targeted Mathews and I really don’t see the benefit of anticipating his failure to produce in a Portland uniform. Every contending team needs intense role players, and Paul Allen was willing to pay the freight that was required to separate Wesley from Utah’s roster
Ronnie Brewer is a career 23% 3 point shooter, BTW. Not what Nate is looking for in a wing
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yeah, I agree about Ronnie Brewer; he wouldn't fit in Portland whatsoever.
Anyhow, the problem with Raja Bell here is the same as it is with Wesley Matthews.
Both guys are backup 3s in Portland, while they can play the 2 in Utah. For Bell, I think that he’d’ve looked good in San Antonio at the 3 — even though it looks like Peter Holt and Richard Jefferson had some handshake deal that R-Jeff would opt-out to get S.A. under the luxury tax and, in turn, be rewarded with a fat long-term contract — however, going back to Utah should work for the cagey veteran.
Hmm, Ronnie Brewer has a broken jump shot due to a childhood arm injury.
So, even though I wouldn’t want either Brewer or Wesley Matthews, my selection would be Matthews over Brewer in Portland if I had to choose between them.
I really can't believe, in all these posts...
Not ONE person has suggested this lineup: Miller, Rudy, Batum (LA and GO).
That lineup would be a fantastic fast break unit. They have GO to man the D boards, quick outlet to Miller, and 2 of Rudy/Batum/LA fill the lanes… If no fast break, you have two guys who can hit the 3 (Rudy/Batum), somebody who can drive and dish (Miller), an inside presence (GO), and a mid range shooting specialist (LA). You could also sub Camby in there for either LA and GO, and he likes to run too!
On D, Miller guards the 1, Batum the best offensive player, and Rudy on whoever is left…
I’m just LOL that nobody else seems to be even willing to think of the possibility of any lineup that doesn’t include Brandon! Given his injury history, if nothing else, we NEED to find an offense that doesn’t include him! …smh…
I believe we had Miller, Rudy, and Batum in the playoffs last year with LMA and Camby.
Of course Batum and Camby was hurting, but I didn’t see any spectacular play from Miller with Rudy at the two. In fact it was horrible
hg
by BBK on Sep 1, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Um, did they practice at all?
And, Rudy was hurt, too.
And, they weren’t running…
This ineup was not given a fair chance to see what it could do.
You asked why we didn't think about it
My answer was we tried it. it didn’t work.
I was not saying that through practice if Rudy wanted to play that it wouldn’t be a good line-up.
hg
Rudy was hurt, too.
Hurt feelings, maybe. He said he felt better than he had in years, following his back surgery
It’s an urban legend that Fernandez was still suffering the effects of the Ariza foul last spring
Roy, Batum and Camby were legitmately injured, against the Suns
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I also said Camby could be inserted into either position, covering for Greg if hurt.
And I’m not “taking Roy out of the (entire) lineup”.
Dave postulate an alternative lineup, for some stretches of the game, I doubt Dave is suggesting that we start Rudy over Dre, is he?
Well, neither am I. I’m just saying that if you’re discussing alternative guad pairings, I’d like to see one that gives us the best chance at establishing a running game and getting easy baskets.
Not playing your best player is an interesting strategy.
I think you’re forgetting how much easier it is for the Blazers to score when B-Roy is healthy.
B-Roy > 10 Rudys
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, B-Roy is better than Rudy, but...
Brandon isn’t going to play 48 minutes per game. Visionary2 is just suggesting a lineup that might work while Roy is resting. We all have seen how the Blazers’ offense often stagnates when Roy is out. Not always, but sometimes. It’s not wrong to think of lineups to counter that.
That is my main concern with this team.
But I think J-Bay gives you more than Rudy bc he has a handle and the ability to get into his man a bit. J-Bay’s open 3’s are going in close enough to 40% of the time to keep him ahead of Rudy. Rudy is great for a few screens and a made 3 but he can’t handle and his D helps the other team’s hustle unit make runs. That’s why I don’t like Rudy as a featured guy off the bench. He’d be incredibly useful at the ends of quarters to space the floor but his attitude stinks too much for him to accept a purely complimentary role.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 2, 2010 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions
remove Rudy's name, insert Bayless or Matthews
then we can have a meaningful discussion re: players who are likely to be on the Blazer’s 2010-2011 roster
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
2nd that - I was writing the same thing
but my version was more tilted toward casting aspersions at Rudy than a rational response
Interrogation Cop: What are you saying?
Fenster: I said he'll flip you.
Interrogation Cop: He'll what?
Fenster: Flip you. Flip ya for real.
by Cyclops@Centercourt on Sep 1, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes, but Rudy's like a doll
he doesn’t have to be real (as in a real NBA player) for the fans to love him or fantasize about his heroism. If you dig a little deeper you will find a vein of chauvanism or cultural bias that’s part of the Portland Oregon experience. I don’t think it’s mean spirited, it just follows the narrow principle of love of kind. There are lots of Rudy fans in this town and it has nothing to do with his rank as an NBA player, they just love their sophisticated Rudy doll to death. Still, given his meager contributions and lack of physical fitness for the NBA I am surprised at the amount of support he receives.
Can't we replace Rudy's name
With just about anyone on the team except for Roy? And some guys who have never been on the team i.e. Hinrich or Igoudala?
I like Hinrich - or anyone that can play decent D and hit the open shot
Dre is just a crutch for a weak team. With him, nobody else needs to do anything. he just bulls down the lane spinning and throwing up a wild shot or finding an open man or turnover. When he is over matched or against a smart team it is a losing gameplan. Against a weak, young player or bad team it works well. The team needs an offensive game plan of moving multiple players and having multiple options.
by LicketyBrindleDowntheMiddle on Sep 1, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Picking up Matthews put an end to my Iguodla dreams
but I’m willing to believe we have a place for a Hinrich.
That's a no-brainer my friend
A bona-fide star for a future star is a good deal on a young team filled with quality players. I’d take Iggy any day.
sure, you would
but the Blazers would have 10 million thoughts per year, which will be the difference between the two player’s salaries for the next 3 seasons
and Batum and Iggy’s production will cross before Iguodala’s current contract has expired, just wait and see
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
That would be an embarrassment of riches
I’m glad for Batum, he’s an awesome young baller.
I’m glad for Wesley Matthews, he’s an awesome young baller.
I would gladly trade them both for Andre Iguodala, he’s a doubly awesome young baller.
That should just about cover the 10,000,000 troubling thoughts. But I take your point. I’m not sure how the leadership agrees to finally pull the trigger on big trades. That’s a lot of responsibility.
I would gladly trade them both for Andre Iguodala, he’s a doubly awesome young baller.
Add Iggy to Portland’s starting lineup and there would be instant usage conflicts. Everyone is complaining re: not having enough outside shooting already, but this grand idea would subtract Portland’s best floor spreader (Batum) and replace him with yet another slasher
(I know, I know, the follow-up deal would be Miller for HInrich. I got it. Except for the assets that what it would take to acquire Iggy would cut into what could be offered to the Wiz for Kirk)
by the time the dust settled, the Blazer roster would be cratered and whatever synergy the previous players had built up would be back to square one
Just another example of fantasy league roster building, I’ll leave the final touches in Rich Cho’s capable hands. Batum wasn’t included in the CP3 offers before Rich came on board, that tells me all I need to know re: who the Blazers core “keepers” really are
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Your inside knowledge is truly incredible
You know for a fact Batum wasn’t offered? Incredible.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
by MadBlaze on Sep 1, 2010 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'd figure it's safe to assume that Nicolas Batum was included in any ...
theoretical trade talks involving Chris Paul. It’s a moot point now, though, since Paul isn’t going anywhere, but Batum almost assuredly would’ve been included to balance out the deal from New Orleans’ perspective.
Oh Chris Paul is going somewhere (I'll hazard a guess you'll agree)
It seems likely he was told it wouldn’t be till 2012 because they are not stupid enough to trade a top 5 player in his prime.
As for our attempts to trade for him, if we didn’t include Batum in those proposals then KP really was inept and deserved to be fired.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
Indeed
I recalled you as a believer in the Amare-Melo-CP3 trio coming together in New York.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
I think it may end up being Tony Parker who gets there ...
first, but CP3 isn’t long for New Orleans either way.
There would be usage problems, yes. That'd need to be solved by firing ...
Nate McMillan — since he underutilizes 3s who slash and cut a lot — and moving Andre Miller for Kirk Hinrich. A four-team trade — which’d also involve Charlotte to go along with Portland, Philadelphia, and Washington — would be needed to do it, but it’s not impossible.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2wo5or4
So yeah, there’d be some major changes — albeit with the core of Brandon Roy, Greg Oden, and even LMA staying intact — therefore, the main difference would come via the coaching upheaval. A coaching staff of Mike Fratello, Eric Musselman — who’d most likely take a NBA assistant coaching job over his current D-League gig — and a few other assistants would install a different offense (i.e., Hawk offense), a strict man-to-man defensive scheme, and an even slower pace.
Unfortunately, though, such a massive coaching staff switch is something that usually happens earlier in the off-season and not at this juncture. As a result, it’s not a pragmatic idea.
Making the Rudy-Roy-Batum line-up work
I believe that the Rudy-Roy-Batum line-up could be successful for long periods, provided that your frontcourt was an Oden-Camby frontcourt.
- Offensively, this lineup features three very good perimeter players who can handle the ball, drive, and have good 3pt percentages. What you don’t need paired with this lineup is LMA. I would have Camby set up in the high post and Oden set up in the low post. This allows for numerous pick and roll combinations from the high post and an entry pass leading to a post-up or a kick out for 3. Additionally, with all 3 wings being slashers, Camby and Oden can both make good passes to cutters after receiving the ball in the high or low post. Even simpler, you could have the wings dominate the ball and have Oden and Camby do nothing but crash the offensive glass, where both excel.
- Defensively, I believe this lineup would do as well as any other Blazer lineup. Camby and Oden and Camby are both formidable help defenders and both clog the paint/alter shots. Both are also excellent defensive rebounders (and giving up offensive rebounds kills a teams defensive efficiency). I would put Nic on the opposing team’s ballhandler (as this seems to be our best defensive option against quick, penetrating pgs), and have Roy and Rudy cover the wings. Roy and Rudy could get exposed if teams ran a clear out post for whoever they are covering (guys like pierce and melo might give us fits) but its likely that either Oden or Camby would be close enough to help in these situation as pulling them both far enough away from the isolation would mean sticking your 4 and 5 outside the 3pt line, negating any chance they will grab the offensive board. In reality, the biggest deficiency of this lineup is against a team that has a 3 who posts and isolates regularly and a team where both the 4 and 5 have range enough that you have to stay home on them out to the arc. There aren’t many teams where that is the case.
I see 2 additional problems with this idea than have not been discussed.
Defensively, as long as Pryz, Oden, and Camby are all healthy I’m okay with this. Without all of our centers healthy I see foul trouble galore for our big men if this backcourt lineup sees major minutes.
On offense, not only could trapping be an issue, but I see Rudy’s ability as a playmaker vastly reduced in this lineup because of his lack of physical strength, relatively poor ball handling and speed in comparison to other pgs. His ability to get into the lane, where he has the potential to be an excellent distributor, is destroyed. Superior lateral quickness, among other attributes, of typical pgs will essentially keep him from doing anything other than shoot 3’s, and make high risk entry passes. Invariably he will be guarded by the opposing pg. Unless he suddenly develops a post up game his advantages, especially as a playmaker, over Mathews/Bayless are up in smoke.
This might be off topic
but Nico is a way cooler name than Nic or Nicolas. I think I’m going to buy a guinea pig just so I have something to name Nico
I'll take Rudy at $1million a year
over Matthews at $7 million a year
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
by collectiveshane on Sep 1, 2010 12:16 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Is Matthews worth more than we paid Webster? Doubt it.
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
by collectiveshane on Sep 1, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
If anyone needs to prove something, its Matthews. He hasn't showed us jack-squat.
I’m going to be as critical of Matthews as you are of Rudy until Matthews shows he’s worth 7 mil a year.
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
by collectiveshane on Sep 1, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Matthews balled in the playoffs. Rudy sucked.
FACT
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
He shot 38% from the floor and got lit up by Melo and Kobe. It’s kind of a strange definition of “balling.”
by atomiccafe on Sep 1, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
True
Wesley Matthews hasn’t shown much in his career. neither has Rudy, but at least he didn’t cost us anything and could shoot 3’s when he wanted to.
Matthews is thought of as this GREAT DEFENDER and 3 point specialist. t best, he’s an undrafted overpaid decent defender who can hit about one 3 a game.
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
by collectiveshane on Sep 1, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Matthews STARTED last year as an undrafted rookie
under one of the toughest coaches ever.
He’s definitely a very good defender and can do enough on offense to help the team. He’s a role player—he doesn’t have to be Michael Jordan, just play good D and be an efficient offensive player. He can do that.
We know what Rudy can do. He’s much older and A LOT less wise than Matthews. Also, his D is not good and his attitude right now even worse.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
The UCLA high-post offense masks the flaws of wing players.
http://hooptactics.net/freesite/offstrategies/setoffense/ucla.php
I wish I could access the page on the high-low zone offense — which is the base set in Portland — but it’s under the premium portion of the blasted website.
http://hooptactics.com/Free_Area_All_Basketball_Strategies
At any rate, though, the point is Matthews’ limited skill set was interchangable between the 2 and the 3 on offense in light of the system in Utah. In Portland, however, he’s purely a 3 on offense, which basically makes him an overpriced Martell Webster.
If anything, playing for Jerry Sloan inflated Matthews’ value. Portland took the bait hook, line, and sinker, too.
I love your attention to detail.
I’m using an eyeball test—watching Matthews kick our butts last year and the fact that he looked cool and efficient on offense against the Lakers. Maybe I’m being conned a bit by my own nearsightedness to such resources as the ones you point out.
But I hope not.
Being this way helps me enjoy the games more. I DO respect the sweet science you speak of though.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 2, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Matthews played 38 MPG
and managed only 12 ppg on 38% shooting. efficient? nope. Rudy could easily average 16+ ppg in that amount of minutes, and would play the same ‘lockdown D’ on Melo and Kobe by giving up 30+ ppg
Until he's not, Rudy's a Blazer.
by collectiveshane on Sep 2, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
His team beat the Nugs and gave LA a nice run for their money.
And who doesn’t get “lit up” by the NBA’s best wings? He made them work.
And you’re not mentioning what Rudy has done in the playoffs. He can’t even get ahead of a 6 foot shooting guard in the rotation. Rudy is great if he settles on being a role playing sniper. But he thinks he’s a star. Sure he is—in Europe.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
this guy!
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/11/2/1111637/charting-martell-websters-defense
In all seriousness, I know you can play great defense and still get torched by a great performance. However, it worries me that people wax lyrical about Matthews’ “D” on Kobe and Melo in the playoffs when you look at the numbers they put up against him.
It's PA's money to spend,
basically hits the cap about as much as the mid-level exception, and you have to over-pay for RFA’s anyways.
What’s the big deal here? If he balls like he did in SLC it’s going to be a VERY good pickup.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
check out this podcast
http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/7/23/1584967/the-dontonio-wingcast-episode-029
KP2 addresses that exact argument at about the 30 min mark. His argument is that this was basically the philosophy of the Whitsitt regime—spend all the money you can and the MLE every year, just because you have more money than anyone else in the league. If you aren’t prudent you end up with a bunch of contracts you can’t move except for other bad contracts.
His money is mostly up front.
It was toxic part II, really.
It’s all about the cap. This deal doesn’t hit the cap a whole lot more than re-signing Rudy would have IMO. Dude can play 2 and 3. He’s much more versatile in that respect than Rudy and Marty.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 1, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Matthews' cap hit from storyteller
’10: 5,765,000
’11: 6,135,126
12: 6,505,253
’13: 6,875,379
’14: 7,245,506
I don’t know what it would cost to re-sign Rudy in two years, but fortunately we don’t have to deal with that now because he is under contract right now at 3.4m/2 yrs.
Compare with actual amount paid (due to the signing bonus):
’10: $10,318,677
’11: $4,996,707
’12: $5,366,834
’13: $5,736,960
’14: $6,107,087
Here's the point, to me, about what KP2 says
Are you looking to create a core of players by using the MLE every year or simply to supplement a winning core already under contract?
For example, the Lakers have used the strategy of “add an MLE player each year” to supplement their core over the last 3 years. Seems to be working pretty well for them.
But if you’re trying to create a core of players capable of winning championships using just the MLE each year, you’ll probably end up as KP2 predicts.
So the question is this:
Is the Blazers’ core of Miller/Roy/Batum/Aldridge/Oden/Camby/Bayless enough to compete for a title with supplementary help? Or do they need a couple of big pieces that they’re hoping can be added via the MLE over the next couple of seasons?
right
to me the Blazers’ future is too up in the air to be thinking about simply supplementing a proven core. By contrast, the Lakers have had known championship level core since the Gasol trade. If you decide you need to add another major piece, which is something we can’t rule out, a $35 m contract to a mediocre player is going to hinder that sort of trade, because management won’t be as willing to assume salary, and your flexibility is generally damaged.
See, to me,
that core matches up with any core in the Western Conference, including the Lakers. As such, I would expect the Blazers to try two things this summer:
1) Use their depth to make a consolidation trade that adds another core player
2) Use the MLE to add a solid supplementary player
I think the team has tried #1 but been unsuccessful so far. They’ll continue that route, IMO. The acquisition of Matthews fits. Is he overpaid? We’ll know in a couple of years. My guess is yes, but not by a whole lot.
My other guess is that the Blazer computer had a wildly high analysis of Matthews and that the team made the offer because of a narrow window of opportunity to get him.
I do agree that the core potentially matches up with any team in the West, including the Lakers. However, we also have more uncertainty associated with reaching our potential than any other team (largely down to Brandon’s durability and Greg’s injuries), so to me that argues for maintaining flexibility. Agree on your last comment.
I totally agree those were their two goals this season and they are still working on #1.
We don’t really know if Cho thinks Matthews is that solid supplementary player or not, since he had nothing to do with that signing.
Hypothetical question: Suppose Cho wanted to trade Matthews after Dec 15 (has to wait since he was a free-agent signing). Didn’t Matthews have to be paid over $9M up front? So how much is still owed him in 2010-11? (I don’t know how those up front bonus deals are paid.) Isn’t it zero, or very little? If so, would Matthews be virtually free to another team in 2010-11 if traded? Then his contract is reasonable in the following 4 years, so he should be a good deal to another team in a trade.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 1, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh yeah, I forgot. I'm now engaging the Storyteller "bat signal" Request For Help!
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 1, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
The bonus of $5,692,096 has been paid
so $4,626,581 is due for his 2010-11 base salary. The general thought is that 75% of that is due at the beginning of the season with the remaining 25% paid in 12 installments over the course of the season.
All of this meaning that if the Blazers wanted to trade him on December 15th, his new team would only have to pay him about $860,000 for the remainder of the season.
His new team would then be responsible for his base salary in each successive year – each year paying 75% upfront. This ranges from $4.997 million in 2011-12 to $6.107 million in 2014-15.
Thanks for explaining how that works. So I think my point is valid.
If Cho doesn’t have as high a regard for Matthews as the administration that acquired him, he should be very attractive salary-wise in a trade after Dec 15. Less than $1M for 2011-12 and a reasonable contract after that.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 1, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I think the blazers need another offensively skilled big
Lakers: Gasol, Byum, Odom
Blazers: Aldridge, Oden?, ?
The acquisition of Matthews and Babbitt is the final verdict on Rudy Fernandez' Trailblazer audition
That fact speaks for the team. The Trailblazer leadership of PA, Larry Miller and Nate Mcmillan and presumably KP made these acquisitions for the purpose of replacing Rudy Fernandez..How many times does the GM need to say he is hard at work looking for a new home for Rudy. Rich Cho’s job now is to hold out for the best possible deal but the delay does not mean Rudy has any future with the Trailblazers. It may indicate that the team is fishing for larger trades in which Rudy plays a part. The trade we’ve heard about, Rudy for a mid-level 1st round pick is a playground deal and not hardly worth the trouble.
Or at least
the acquisitions give the Blazers the ability to deal Rudy, since they have other options at backup SG.
One point of contention...
all three are unselfish
I seem to remember Roy was a bit of a ball hog at points last season, which was frustrating to those of us who wanted Nate to do more with the offense other than run ISO all the time.
"I come to you now, at the turn of the tide." -- Brandon "Gandalf" Roy, April 24th, 2010
Did anyone notice?
that Batum seemed to kinda have a habit of making lazy passes last year? i just remember quite a few weak passes getting picked off
by thegreatwhitehope on Sep 1, 2010 4:20 PM PDT reply actions
well, his 0.7 TO rate per game woulda ranked in the top 5 among SF's - so no
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
With Oden and Camby in the front court
I think that sounds pretty alright.
Shift A
I think Dave just made this post so he could brag about being on the radio. Why anyone would name drop a show with CIP on it, I have no idea…
Tell me what you don't like about yourself
Dave's "curl my toes" comment drew a few chuckles from the MSP crew
while I suspect watching Rudy and Roy trying to defend opposing backcourts would produce indigestion, in my case
(Since the MSP podcasts are labeled by topic and guests, it was good to hear that Mr. Decker was on the air, otherwise I would have missed the interview altogether)
But next week, here’s hoping they talk about players who are working at out the PF, not about the offseason. Same request re: the upcoming podcast with Casey
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
great discussion
I’d love to see this is the starting and crunch time line up with Bayless and that guy from Utah coming off the bench to provide some defense. I really hope that rookie from Reno doesn’t play at all this year.
#52
Rudy hustles for the offensive board then gets it back for a three
Playing really well.
| #11 | #7 | #9 | #15 | #52 |
Also, lost in the shuffle somewhere in these discussions,
is the fact that Harvey is a doofus.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Sep 2, 2010 1:04 PM PDT reply actions
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