Poll: Who Won The Four Team Trade?
by Ben Golliver on Aug 11, 2010 10:53 AM PDT
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PrintThis morning, the Houston Rockets, Indiana Pacers, New Jersey Nets and New Orleans Hornets reportedly agreed to a four-team trade. The trade was first reported by ESPN's Chad Ford.
- Houston gives Trevor Ariza for Courtney Lee
- Indiana gives Troy Murphy for Darren Collison and James Posey
- New Jersey gives Courtney Lee for Troy Murphy
- New Orleans gives Darren Collison and James Posey for Trevor Ariza
Here's the trade in the Trade Machine.
Who won?
-- Ben Golliver | benjamin.golliver@gmail.com | Twitter
PS Thanks to ericking for getting the news of the trade up first in the FanShots.
PPS Pacers consultant KP2 couldn't be reached for comment. Champagne has flooded both his cell phone and ear drums.
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It assures that the Blazers will NOT get Paul
Paul is now the ONLY “starter” PG that NO has.
It also sends the message to Chris that they are sold on him being there.
by spencerbutte on Aug 11, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
on the bright side
I don’t have to read anymore CP3 trade scenario posts…or substantially less of them anyway
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Collison being gone in New Orleans does not mean they won’t trade Chris Paul. It just means they need to get more guards back in return. It’s perfectly reasonable to assume we could package Miller, Bayless, Joel and a fourth piece for Chris Paul. That would give them two point guards back and tons of salary cap relief through expiring contracts.
"You know, when you are in the game, you hear 20,000 people behind you, you don't feel anything."
- Nicolas Batum on playing through his shoulder injury during the 2010 playoffs.
Miller, Bayless, Joel and a fourth piece for Chris Pau....????
Good luck trying to keep that dream alive.
by spencerbutte on Aug 11, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not a dream if we’re willing to give up a healthy Greg Oden. We’ll see. I know it’s a longshot, but saying it’s “impossible” is a little far-fetched. We know the Hornets have been interested in Greg.
"You know, when you are in the game, you hear 20,000 people behind you, you don't feel anything."
- Nicolas Batum on playing through his shoulder injury during the 2010 playoffs.
It’s a lose/lose situation for Cho regarding Greg. He can’t trade Oden healthy because the fans would be pissed and claim we gave up on him. But if he waits too long and if Oden sustains another season-ending injury, he looks foolish for not selling high when he had the chance. This is such a great topic for debate in Blazer nation. Next to the “what do we do at starting PG once Miller is gone?” debate.
"You know, when you are in the game, you hear 20,000 people behind you, you don't feel anything."
- Nicolas Batum on playing through his shoulder injury during the 2010 playoffs.
"selling greg high?"
he’s currently at the lowest value he’s ever likely to have in the NBA right now … even if he has one healthy productive season his value around the league will still be fairly low.
Consider the fact that Oden will almost positively be uninsurable against injury (the league insurer will almost certainly add him to their exemption list) when he signs his extension I think it’s safe to say he’s always going to carry a ton of risk for the Blazers or anybody else.
by nikolokolus on Aug 11, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Oden is at a state of limbo. To say he's at his lowest is inaccurate.
His value could become less if he gets injured again.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
If we were talking about a potentially injury-prone guard, I would agree with you. But we’re not. Big men, and especially centers, don’t grow on trees like guards do. The body and skill set Greg possesses is highly valuable in our league. I disagree that even half of a productive season wouldn’t help restore some of Greg’s value. He wasn’t a #1 pick for nothing. The guy has tremendous upside. When I said “sell high” I don’t mean Dwight Howard high. I’m talking about selling high in Oden terms. In other words trading him when he’s not injured and playing 10/10/2-3 basketball for us.
"You know, when you are in the game, you hear 20,000 people behind you, you don't feel anything."
- Nicolas Batum on playing through his shoulder injury during the 2010 playoffs.
Its hard to give up on a guy...
with a 12 foot wingspan between all 3 of his arms.
do you think
any of Greg’s team mates greet him anymore with, “how’s it hanging?”
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Aug 11, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We are not willing
I would not trade our 23 year old, most dominant, big man with injury concerns, for the 26 year old best in the league PG with injury concerns.
Rule #1: Don’t trade big for small.
by upper left corner on Aug 11, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
If CP3 resigns they all win
Good trade for every team if Paul stays unless they plan to trade Paul for a Bayless package and they don’t want quarterback controversy.
I dont undestand how they could not get a better player for Collison than Ariza??
Ofcourse they shed Posey’s contract but still, really?
by blazerbeliever97504 on Aug 11, 2010 11:00 AM PDT reply actions
Yea, Ariza
He’s not cheap.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
I guess they did shed $1.5m this year
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
they aren't
they also picked up Belinelli
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Good for Indiana; Bad for New Orleans
This is a fantastic trade for Indiana. They get their point guard of the future, and all they give up is Troy Murphy’s expiring contract.
As for New Orleans, I would have thought they could have gotten more for Collison than Trevor Ariza. Collison was the one major trade chip they had. Now that they’ve cashed it in, they’ve got nothing left to improve the team and no contingency plan if Paul leaves.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
Yea, but nabbing Ariza may excite Paul a bit
They have to sell him on the idea of making their major play to retool when Peja comes off the books.
Ariza will look a lot better next to Paul than he did in Houston—more like he did in LA. He’ll be able to get easy baskets in transition and a lot of open looks off of CP3 penetration. Plus his D will really help New Orleans.
Not sure they could have got a whole lot more for Collison. Pretty sure we value him a lot more highly in PDX than elsewhere in the league.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
I thought Quincy Pondexter was a good cheap defensive talent at the SF position.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Pondexter might be in the future
But if your trying to convince Paul that you want to win THIS year…..
by spencerbutte on Aug 11, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
You mean all the PDX fans who are blinded by the grass is greener syndrome?
Collison has a good chance to be a good starting PG in the league, but he isn’t the sure deal that many have suggested. Folks seem to forget that he was a four year college guy who is a lot closer to being fully developed than Bayless.
His career 3 pt % at UCLA was actually lower than Bayless’ one year at UA. Collison had two great months last season, but it is not certain that he will sustain that kind of play for his entire career. He is also 3 inches shorter and 40 lbs smaller than Bayless, which raises real question about durability and defense against larger PG and on switches.
by upper left corner on Aug 11, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
not to mention
he was plugged into a system built around showcasing the PG…which most certainly helped more than it hurt
You mean Collison...
is no Jerryd Bayless?
Blinded by grass is greener syndrome?
Nice rhetoric. Fact is that college stats matter a whole lot less when someone has proven they can shoot 40% from the NBA three over an 82 game season. Which one of Bayless and Collison has done that?
| MC2PDX | Horf2PDX | Cho4GM | Griff4AGM | JVG4HC | 1/5
When Collison shoots enough 3's to qualify for the % title, the comparisons will be more relevant
of course – Bayless needs to do the same thing (Collison made 17 more 3 pt FG’s last season)
Collison, on the other hand – is a 0.067 WS/48 player – while Bayless is a 0.098 WS/48 player.
Collison did it as a rookie 1 year old than Bayless as a sophomore. Who’s better? Fit to a system is part of it – but I’d still bet on Bayless to easily outperform Collison (again)…
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Aug 11, 2010 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Win Shares is a marvelous advanced stat for baseball, but not so much for basketball.
I enjoy Dean Oliver’s work, too, but translating Bill James’ metric from one sport to another doesn’t hold up too well here. Even PER and WP48 — which clearly favor Darren Collison over Jerryd Bayless — aren’t the way to go in this case, since such all-encompassing stats don’t specifically detail the difference between them.
For me, I’d prefer to view individual stats like eFG%, TS%, AST%, assist ratio, TOV%, turnover ratio, assist-to-turnover ratio, STL%, USG%, usage rate, and many +/- metrics (e.g., adjusted +/-, on-court/off-court net points allowed per 100 possessions, on-court/off-court team eFG% and eFG% allowed, et cetera) when comparing and contrasting Collison and Bayless.
My title was half rhetorical and half serious.
I’m not saying Collison isn’t going to be a good PG. There is a good probability that he will. I’m not saying that there isn’t a chance that he will end up being better than Bayless. He might.
I am saying that these are very open issues. A decent case can be made on either side of either issue. Only time will tell.
I am saying that just as a lot of you have, in my opinion, been premature in your assessments that Bayless will not be a starting quality PG and is not a good stylistic fit next to Roy. I believe you have been equally premature in your positive evaluation of Collison.
Collison had three months when he shot better than 40% from 3 pt range and 3 months when he shot less. Thirty of the forty six 3 pointers he made for the entire season came in a two month period. Did he just get hot, or is this a trend towards permanent improvement? Particularly given that Collison was fairly inconsistent in college, I would say that it is probably a bit early to tell.
I am of course arguing out of both sides of my mouth. Bayless showed improvement last season, was it random fluctuation or a trend towards permanent improvement? I think it is legitimate to point out the improvement, but I also think it is legitimate to put a big ol’ asterisk next to the stat about small sample size.
My bigger point is that these are young guys whose games are rapidly developing. Making definitive pronouncements about what kind of players they will become is risky business.
by upper left corner on Aug 12, 2010 4:56 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not only that, MB, for Darren Collison was actually a more efficient three-point shooter ...
at UCLA during the entirety of his college career (i.e., 43.5%) than Jerryd Bayless was during his one season at Arizona (i.e., 40.7%).
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/ucla/darren-collison
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/arizona/jerryd-bayless
Darren Collison was a career 43.5% 3PT% shooter at UCLA.
Jerryd Bayless was a career 40.7% 3PT% shooter at Arizona.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/collida01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bayleje01.html
Please don’t make stuff up to push your single-minded Bayless agenda.
You are right. I made a mistake.
Collison had better career stats. Bayless did shoot slightly better in his one season than Collison did in two of his four seasons, including Collison’s senior season when his rate declined significantly.
My point was that Collison has been inconsistent in the past, which means that his great shooting from February -March may be a sign of improvement, or may be a hot streak.
By the way, if you are going to call me out for making a mistake AK. How about answering my request to you for an explanation concerning your wildely inconsistent characterization of TP vs Collison? You don’t often ignore my comments, I found it interesting that you ignored this one:
Your characterizations seem maddeningly inconsistent to me.
Regarding Parker, you state:
an oft-injured, ball dominant 1 who’s playmaking abilities are geared more toward himself than his teammates (i.e., Tony Parker) isn’t the answer.
Let’s look at Parker’s career stats:
PER: 18.3; TS%: .542; AST% 31.4; TO% 14.2; USG% 25.5
Now, let’s look at the stats for Collison who you have repeatedly stated you think would be a great fit next to Roy:
PER: 16.5; TS%: .546; AST% 32.9; TO% 18.9; USG% 23.1
How is one of these guys a great fit and the other is a "ball dominant 1 who’s playmaking abilities are geared more toward himself"?
Granted Collison was a better 3 pt shooter last season, but as I pointed out in a post above, he made over 2/3 of his threes for the season in one two month period. Apart from 3 pt%, how is one guy a great distributor and the other guy "geared towards himself," when they have almost identical AST% and USG% stats?
Maybe you have a good explanation, but from here, it just like you are throwing around adjectives just to back up your own overstated opinions. Please explain.
by upper left corner on Aug 13, 2010 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions
To me, the difference between Tony Parker and Darren Collison is something I can't ...
quantify. Heck, I readily admit that. Yet, looking at a player’s history, Collison has seemingly done fine alongside guards both professionally and amateurly like Chris Paul, Jrue Holiday, Russell Westbrook, and Jordan Farmar — as well as wings like Josh Shipp and Arron Afflalo in college — while Parker ha thrived most often when a co-#1 option on offense alongside a supreme post player like Tim Duncan. With Parker, a glaring red flag is raised due to Gregg Popovich’s unwillingness to pair him next to another ball dominant guard, Manu Ginobili, for extended minutes. There must be a reason for it, too, with my own conclusion being Parker’s poor off ball play is a factor when pairing him with other players.
Ariza is a huge upgrade
over Collison when you look at fit. He’s a premier wing defender…with decent 3 pt range. Pretty much the perfect compliment for CP3. While Collison is an amazing PG in his own right, he can’t exactly play along Paul for long stretches, and you figure Paul is going to want 35+ mpg…great deal especially when you factor in the savings on the Posey contract
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
when was the last time you saw Ariza play?
was it 2 years ago in the playoffs with LA? That was a contract year, and his good month of play got him a good deal. But the guy can’t shoot the 3, (his career mark is in the very low 30’s) he shoots too much, because he thinks he is a good shooter and a star. About the only thing he can do is defend, although I think he gambles too much, NO’s seems to like that style of defense, (or at least they did, who knows what Monty will have them do).
Collison was a very efficient PG, who played extremely well in place of CP3 last year, I think any production they get from acquiring Ariza, is wiped out by getting rid of Collison.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
see my response to you below
regarding context
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
When was the last time *you* saw Ariza play?
Ariza had bad percentages last season when he was the only scorer on Houston in the first half of the season and he had to try to be the first option. Once they got more scoring on the court after the trade for Kevin Martin, Ariza could go back to being more of an opportunistic 3 point shooter, and his shooting percentages recovered dramatically.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
maybe your right
First, I’m sorry if I came off wrong with the “you” comment, it was meant as a general term, and not a personal insult, but I can see where it could be taken that way. My apologies to Billy. :)
I looked up Trevor’s stats, post Martin trade, and his percentages did go up, but that is not saying too much because they were in the basement to begin with. Still in the 22 games he played with Martin, he shot 38% from 3, although still in the low 40’s overall. I don’t think this should lead me to believe he is a great shooter, as the rest of his career, he has shot consistantly in the very low 30’s from 3, and I still contend that he shoots too much because of it.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
As a third or fourth option (his ideal role),
he’s proved in enough games that he’s an effective spot up 3 point shooter who can find enough open spots to shoot a good number. Roughly 40% on 3s means a TS% of 60%. That’s very good. When you have a 40% on 3s shooter, the more they can increase their attempts while keeping up that percentage, the more you want them to keep up their attempts.
I don’t have these stats available to me, but I bet he shot 20’ish% on 3 pointers with the ball, 45’ish when playing off the ball all last season. What changed post all-star was that he shot a lot more of the latter and fewer of the former. At NOH, he would be doing exclusively the latter, I’d imagine.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you're overstating Ariza's shooting touch
In his full 82 games as a Laker, playing the exact same role as a spot up shooter, he shot 32% from the 3pt line with 3.4 attempts per game. Last year, he shot 33% while shooting 5.6 attempts per game.
Aside from stretches of hot shooting, Ariza has proven himself to be a mediocre shooter.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
and yet
his FG/3% in the playoffs over 31 games with LA was roughly 50%/45% with a TS% around 61%
That matters as much, if not more, than his regular season numbers, to a team hoping to contend in the playoffs.
small sample size
How many attempts was that, total? I’d bet that it’s not a significant difference at the 5% or 10% level.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Trevor Ariza Lakers Playoff Games
G—-MIN————FGM/A/%————3PM/A/%
31——767——99/197/50%——-41/88/46%
Personally, I don’t consider 750 minutes and 88 3pt attempts to be too small of a small sample size, but that’s just me. For kicks and giggles his reg season numbers with LA were
82—-1998——274/596/46%——-61/191/32%
so the only drastic change was in his 3pt%, which probably just means he was picking his spots a lot better in big game situations as opposed to regular season blowout games. In fact, looking at the game logs he had a few 0-4 games here and there, but most games he was 1 for 2 or 2 for 3/4. His dropoff in % seemed to take place towards the end of the regular season, at which point LA was already a lock for home court in the playoffs.
No, it's a pretty fair sample size.
I still doubt it’s his true percentage, but he likely has improved over his career.
Anyway, it’s fair to say that Ariza was a huge upgrade for NOH, but I don’t think he should be higher than a #4 offensive option for a playoff team.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
You would trust those games over the 154 games between the previous 2 years?
Martell shot 38% between January and February last year over 28 games. Average over 2 threes a game.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
I'm not calling him the next incarnation of Ray Allen.
I’m saying he’s a perfectly reasonable 3 point outlet at the corners. He’s a better on offense worse on defense Bruce Bowen, which is a hell of a lot better than terrible on offense and even worse on defense guys like Devin Brown and Mo Pete.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I just don't think he's a significant offensive upgrade as you make Ariza out to be.
Devin Brown didn’t play the 3. He played behind Thornton after Scott was canned. Posey, Peja, Wright, and Peterson platooned small forward with all the injuries. Peja and Peterson shot the 3-ball much better last year than Ariza at any point of his career.
I think Ariza is a defensive upgrade, but to announce him to be an definitive offensive upgrade is at best speculative.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Mo might be a better shooter
but he’s way more limited offensively. Peja is a better open shot shooter but again at this point in his career very very limited. And both are an atrocity on defense.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Ariza is very very limited offensively as well
He can’t drive and finish in traffic, he can’t really pull up and shot a mid range jumper, he doesn’t draw fouls, and he isn’t a great 3 point shooter. About the only thing he does well is uncontested dunks on fast breaks and being a royal pest on defense. Even during his “break out” year with the lakers, his efg% on his jumpers was only 42%, that is crazy low! Anyone shooting 31% from 3, shouldn’t be taking 2-3 shots a game!
Some people are making it sound like Ariza is now the Hornets best shooter, which is a crazy perception! Peja, even old and barely moveable Peja still shot above 37% last year, Posey also shot better than Ariza. Ariza is a big upgrade defensively, but for all his injuries, Peja is still the best offensive option on that team at the SF spot.
Here is one way to think about it, how do we as fans feel when we see Bayless shot a 3 point shot? I don’t think anyone can say they have much confidence in him yet. Well Bayless shot 31.5% from 3 last year, which isn’t much worse than Ariza’s 33% mark. Some have said that Ariza shot much better once Martin was traded to the Rockets, and for the last 2 months of the season he did shoot better, 38%. But if we take just the last 2 months of the season, when Bayless would put into his primary role of PG/SG off the bench after the trade of Blake, he shot 39% from 3.
The point is we have to take Ariza’s entire body of work, not just 2 months here or there, and over that time he has proven to be an avg to below avg 3 point shooter, who can get hot from time to time.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Sure. And his entire body of work
is that he was only asked to develop an outside shot 1.5 seasons ago when Phil told him to. He shot badly at first— he’d never been a shooter. Phil stuck with it and told him he’d be needed in the playoffs. He stuck with it, kept trying, looked pretty bad.
Then he delivered like gangbusters in the playoffs. Sure, the 3 point numbers were obviously flukey numbers not likely to be repeated, but you can’t even touch those flukey numbers if you’re truly a 25% guy. Those are flukey numbers you can buy from a 40% guy, maybe a 35% guy, but not a 25% guy.
Then he got to a situation where he joined a team without a better offensive option than him. Maybe Brooks, but that was a little debatable at times. He was forced to score a lot more than he looked comfortable doing, and he ended up with the ball in his hands having to try to create his shot a lot. Bad scene. He shot very poorly in this role.
Then his team makes a trade and he finds himself back to mostly being a glue guy who plays defense and spots up for open shots. His shooting percentages instantly recover to being a 40% type guy, which is basically what he looks like as an open spot up shooter. Which is good enough to be dangerous.
—
Now you can look at that narrative and decide that those two periods are flukes. It’s certainly within the realm of possibility that he’ll underperform. But at minimum, you’ve got a terrific defender who does the little things and plays hard, especially on defense.
Or you can look at that narrative and decide the first half of 09-10 was a fluke, and you’ve got a terrific defender who’s dangerous from the corner three and can finish on the break and who does the little things and plays hard on defense.
He shores up your just godawful wing rotation, probably enough to improve the team 5 games on his own. A healthy CP3 gets you another 10 wins. Playing Marcus full time and having him with a year under his belt gives you another 3-5. And you’re suddenly looking like a mid-50s squad who can win a round or two.
They bought hope and dumped a bad contract for the price of Collison. Not a balanced trade in terms of overall talent, but a good trade nonetheless.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice analysis...
I’d like to think Monty knows what he’s doing…
Very nice analysis.
I think your wins analysis is overestimating somewhat (not regarding CP3 but regarding Ariza and Thornton) but that seems like a very likely scenario on Ariza’s shooting. Especially when combined with the frequency with which NBA players develop 3pt shots when they work on it.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
That is just about the most glowing report
I have ever read about a bad shooter, who has had a few good months over a 2 year period, so he should be considered a good shooter. You almost had me convinced!
You might be right, but I’m going to go with his career norms for his shooting ability, not some magical coaching job by the zen master, that allowed Ariza to go from a 30% shooter, to a 40% shooter during one season. NBA players all go through highs and lows during a season, as I pointed out before, even Bayless shot 40% from 3 for the last 2 months of the season, that doesn’t mean he is a 40% shooter. Same can be said for Martel, who shot like 50% from 3 for a month, doesn’t mean that is what he is, sample size does mean something, it is important.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Indiana
what sneaky banditos
Numerically Blazers Edge is #25
by Outlaw is Rejector on Aug 11, 2010 11:01 AM PDT reply actions
Yeah that was a helluva trade.
Portland > Tacoma
by CaptainSexyJacob on Aug 11, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Man Indiana did good
I don’t get why NJ did it, I like Courtney Lee, and I thought they had some big guys. Maybe not. Chris Paul really likes Arizia I guess.
Maybe NJ did it for next year when a guy name 'Melo becomes a FA?
by blazerbeliever97504 on Aug 11, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
interesting
I keep forgetting about next year, NJ must be desperate to make a move then. They are still slashing salary.
Maybe NO did for next year when a guy name 'Melo becomes a FA?
Shedding Posey and an additional 1.5m in cap whilst keeping Peja’s massive expiring = a cap space a plenty next summer to bring on "Melo. Chris Paul, Marcus Thornton, Trevor Ariza, Carmelo Anthony, David West, and Emeka Okafor is tough team. That team beats the Thunder every time.
Pretty sure New Orleans has less than $10m in cap space next summer
Not enough to snag Melo.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
Storyteller's site shows $48 mil in salaries after this year.
So yeah they’d have to make some more moves, since it’s unlikely the cap will be above $60 mil.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
David West will surely opt out and his cap-hold will surely eat most of the capspace
Leaving the Hornets with more or less the equivalent of the MLE.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Oh, very true.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I like this move for Houston too
Their future, like ours, depends on the big guy getting healthy. Lee is a nice piece if Yao is back.
Houston needed guard depth.
They were stacked at the 3 and with a boat load of bigs.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Also Lee is an expiring/team option for 11-12.
So they don’t have the long term commitment and is a bunch cheaper.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Currently, from my recent memory of him in Orlando and a bit in NJ.
He could deserve $4M-$5.5M a year, depending on the market.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
that sounds about right
kind of a more proven wesley matthews really. Depending how all the new Players CBA stuff works out those numbers sound right. Unless he has a really good year, and he’s like a guy that everyone who doesn’t get Melo wants.
great move for NJ
Put Harris, Morrow, Outlaw, Murphy around Lopez and work on developing TWill and Favors. Courtney Lee is a better defender, but Murphy gives them rebounding NOW while they develop their talent
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
why nj did it?
murphy (18.07PER) >>>>>>>>>> lee (12.88)
maybe you people are confusing courtney lee with david lee
#88
but NJ is hardly 'win now', and Lee is a young talent on a cheap contract whereas Murphy isn't improving and has a big contract
I still find ‘trade chip’ the most likely reason they acquired Murphy.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I'm not sure what you're implying
He started on a Finals team in 08-09, and he’s a viable NBA rotation player who’s also young enough to improve.
I don’t mean like a lottery or top-10 talent.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Does this signal that NOH plans to keep CP3
since they are shedding his backup PG?
I thought the point of trading CP3 was to
- Shed Paul’s contract (much bigger than Collison)
- Satisfy his trade demands while still having Collison, a good PG
Portland > Tacoma
by CaptainSexyJacob on Aug 11, 2010 11:03 AM PDT reply actions
For sure
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
Clear message that they are committed to keeping Paul.
That doesn’t mean that Paul won’t opt out or make it clear that that is his intention. If Paul is traded it won’t be until next offseason or the following trade deadline.
Nice move for Indiana, they really needed something positive to happen
Ariza will look good running with CP3. If it helps them keep CP3, it’s a nice move for them too. If not they just sunk long-term dollars into a middling starter (due to lack of efficiency).
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
WHAT?
Trevor Ariza is not a top-flight starter and the answer to a team’s dreams come true? I am shocked, I tell you. Just shocked.
—Dave
for real. ask rudy about it, he is still feeling the Ariza takedown
/////
((o))
/////
The Ariza takedown...
…took Rudy right out of his game and he’s still trying to get up off the floor from that one. He’s steered clear of contact ever since.
by Igot D. Jones on Aug 11, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
No, of course not
But do you think they could have fetched much more than Ariza for Collison?
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
He's an interesting gamble
He’s that kind of tweener talent who could turn out great but probably won’t. I’d say given the Hornets’ goals they got about as much as they could.
—Dave
I think they could have used Collison to get serviceable players on expiring or inexpensive contracts while moving Posey and Okafor...
then added a FA that might more likely keep CP3 in NO than Ariza is likely going to do. It seems like a big gamble that Ariza is going to make you much better.
Getting everyone healthy and clicking should help them a lot
I bet they’re just looking to be in the playoff picture and hope to sate CP3 while selling him on dreams of improvement down the road. Not saying that will work, but I suspect that’s the strategy, and probably the only real option they have.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
I know who didn't win
The Blazers. I’m a bit frustrated by the lack of movement or trade talks since the hiring of Cho, to be honest.
by mrpunkin on Aug 11, 2010 11:06 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
No rec button on my phone
Rec for this. Where was Cho?
"Who Shot KP?" - Krang
by Gaz on Aug 11, 2010 11:22 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't doubt Rich could have been in on this if he was willing to give up Batum.
Thank you Rich for hanging up the phone. If we aren’t moving Batum, who on our team is available who would have more value than Ariza? Nobody.
No to trading Batum
But Rudy … or ??
"Who Shot KP?" - Krang
uhhh hate to break it to you homers, But Ariza has more value than Batum. A few years older, no injuries and experience in the finals
by therobophobe on Aug 11, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Ariza is a terrible player
he was good for a little over a month, during the playoffs 2 years ago in a contract year, and got a big contract out of it.
Look at this guy’s stats! Never had a PER above 17, (13.4 last year) Shoots in the low 30’s from 3, and last year shot under 40% over all from the field. He is one of the most over rated players in the entire NBA. He had one good year for LA 2 years ago, other than that, he is a limited role player who shoots too much, and thinks he is better than he is.
Comparing him to Batum is crazy, as Trevor is what he is, but Batum is still growing as a player! Nic shot 50% from the field last year, including 40+% from 3, and had a PER over 17, in his second year, he is already better than Ariza! If you don’t like PER, then look up Wins produced, or any other stat, Batum is better than Ariza. If NBA teams value Ariza over Batum then they are nuts.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
this is where stats can misguide you
when taken out of context. Ariza as a 3rd or 4th option (Kobe, Gasol, etc)…gold. Ariza next to Chuck Hayes, Scola, Battier, and Brooks…well you can see why his statistics suffered.
With CP3, West, and Peja, I think Ariza will have a solid year for the money.
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
if you are expecting Peja to be the 3rd
option, then that is a very sad state. Ariza left the NBA Champion Lakers because he wanted to be a star. They offered him about what he got from the Rockets, instead he siged with Houston so he could play Kobe next to Yao.
I believe Ariza got it in his head that he is a star in the NBA, instead of a role player, who plays good defense. He can’t shoot, but he thinks he can so he shoots way too much, (5+ attempts a game last year from 3, while only shooting 33%)
Lets forget last year even, in his “break out year” with the Lakers, he still took too many shots, 2.3 attempts per game from 3, while shooting even worse, 31%, in only 24 mins per game. In limited time he can be productive just based on his defense. But in NO’s they will be playing him 34+ mins a night, and that is a disaster, as last year showed. Playing 36.5 mpg for the Rockets, he took 14 shots a night, 5.7 from 3, and shot under 40% from the field. I expect more of the same while playing for the Hornets.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
I don't think Ariza will be as bad as he was in Houston.
Just by the fact CP3 will be handling the ball all the time. Adelman gave too much freedom to Ariza. The Hornets offensive system make Ariza a spot up shooter and off the ball player. It’s just that Ariza isn’t that great of a spot up shooter. He’s an upgrade defensively and his offensive production won’t be on par with Collison. Overall, I don’t think Ariza will make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. The trade just shows CP3 the Hornets are willing to make noise, even if that noise is inaudible.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
and there you have it
my thoughts almost exactly. Although I am just a bit more down on what Ariza can bring.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
It's not so much that you guys are underrating Ariza,
but you guys are underrating how terrible the NOH wing rotation has been. When you have a team desperate enough to start Devin Brown 35+ games and Mo Pete 40+ games, you have a team that improves tremendously just by adding an average SF.
Ariza is around average offensively in a third or fourth option role. He’s well over average defensively, probably somewhere in the top 5 to 10 at SF. Just by taking minutes away from the likes of those guys and replacing their minutes with a competent player helps this team a lot. A lot more than having the best backup PG in the league.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Ariza and LA
Actually LA never made Trevor an offer.
LA told him to get an offer and LA would see if they’d match. When Trevor took the Hou offer,LA knew Artest could be theirs and they opted for Artest at the MLE instead of matching Ariza. Since they won,I guess it worked out.
In Hou,they kept trying to make Trevor a #1 or 1A option for almost half the season,when after a dozen games it was obvious he wasn’t. So he had some really bad shots while forcing it.Then there’s the problem w/Brooks’ inability/unwillingness to pass inside or throw lobs-things that Ariza thrives on. Ariza would cut backdoor and never see the ball. I would expect to change in NO.
here’s the problem w/Brooks’ inability/unwillingness to pass inside or throw lobs-things that Ariza thrives on.
That’s as good as reason as any (like his diminutive size?) to not wish for Aaron to ever wear a Blazer’s uniform
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I dispute that as fact
Ariza and Artest signed for the exact same contract, almost down to the penny, just under $34 million for 5 years. There is no way the Lakers would choose an aging Artest over the 25 year old Ariza. According to many sources, like this one the Lakers were willing to match other offers,
A Lakers source speaking on the condition of anonymity said the offers Ariza has received from other teams are for the mid-level exception. The Lakers are willing to match the other offers on the table for Ariza, according to the source, but they’re not going to overpay simply because it’s their own player.
I believe he wanted more than just being a role player on a team like LA, otherwise why would he leave? They are willing to pay him as much as anyone else, and they are a contender year in and year out. The only reason to leave is for a bigger role on the team, he got that in Houston, and he failed pretty bad at it.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
I can agree to most of this.
I’d be very wary of role players from systems like the triangle offense in LA.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
the triangle
has nothing to do with defense and clutch shooting though. Ariza may not have the upside of DC, but he’s proven. Last year shouldn’t even count with Yao out and no TMac
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
What about all the other years?
He’s had one good stretch of hot shooting in his NBA career, and now everyone seems to thinks he can shoot. He can’t.
Ariza is nothing more than a defensive specialist with no shot. Dime. A. Dozen.
Uhh...much lower shooting percentages, older and a much less appealing contract. No way the majority of GMs would take Ariza and his contract over Batum.
by 52therim on Aug 11, 2010 1:47 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Yea, age and contract are huge plusses for Batum.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
If we did have a straight up trade
Could we (blazers team) have worked a multi-team deal?
"Who Shot KP?" - Krang
Sorry, should have read -
‘If we didn’t have a straight up trade’
"Who Shot KP?" - Krang
and....
were we willing to take on Posey? (no)
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
maybe not.
But I would think a package of Bayless and Joel would have been a better deal for NO’s.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
seriously?
An aging veteran coming off career threatening injury and a combo guard for a PGOTF? Yeah, what a steal for NO
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I was not talking
a straight up swap with NO. But replace Murphy with Joel, and throw Bayless to NO’s, while bringing Collison and Posey to Portland. Basically taking Indy out of the deal and inserting Portland.
I am more happy that this deal went down without the Blazers in it, because I like our team’s chances as it is currently constructed. I am just saying that I think NO’s could have got more than just Ariza for Collision.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
gotcha
they did also drop Posey’s contract, which matters to their penny pinching owner.
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
true
but if Portland was willing to trade, and really liked Collison, I think NO’s could have got Bayless or Rudy in addition to Ariza, and still shipped out Posey to Portland. (I’m not sure if the numbers work on that, as I’m just using the numbers I can remember in my head).
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
But what you're describing simply doesn't fit a need.
What NOH needed more than anything else was a SF. They’ve got an untradeable center who’s competent although unmotivated, a quality power forward who’s actually a little bit better than LMA, an intriguing young SG in Marcus Thornton, a HOF PG in CP3, then a bunch of guys I wouldn’t want to see starting a D-League game at SF.
Any trade that didn’t bring back a starter quality SF would be a non-starter for NOH. Their only mission was to go out and get the best SF they could for the Collison chip.
What you’re describing arguably is a greater pool of talent, but talent isn’t fungible; you need to balance the roster.
They gave up a little more talent but also dumped two years of paying Posey and got a glimmer of hope of winning enough games to retain CP3. That’s a good trade.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
thats a good point.
But what I saying is, even with this trade, they are not a contending team. So why not stock pile assets, like Portland, OKC, etc… have done? Get as much as you can get for what you got, then use those assets to make fill out your roster.
NO’s needs a starting SF yes, but they also need to upgrade at center, and at every single backup spot, as their bench is really bad.
Ultimately I think they should have traded CP3, instead of Collison, because I am convinced that he is gone in 2 years. NO’s will be no where near contention within that time frame, (especially if a lock out takes away year #2, that leaves them this year only) he is frustrated now, but he will be exausted by then and will move. So unless they have some grand scheme laid out, where they can get another star to play with CP3, then why move Collison who is your backup plan for cp3?
This deal they made is just making a deal, to make a deal to me. Ariza is an upgrade at SF yes, but that upgrade still won’t improve the overall team much. While Posey wasn’t giving much, (A PER in the 8-10 range, and 36% 3 point shooting) Ariza won’t give them that much more, (PER in the 13-15 range, worse outside shooting but better defense) to make them into anything even dangerous to the rest of the NBA.
So my thought is that it would have been better for them to use the trade chips they got, to stack their roster with as many assets as possible, this will give them maximum ability to show a future to CP3 in NO’s, and to rebuild if he decides to leave. As of now, they have gone “All In” with queen/three, which is a huge gamble.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
OK, but trading CP3 is obviously not their Plan A.
Their Plan A is to try to keep CP3, come hell or high water. They won 56 games three seasons ago without a significantly better roster than they’ll end up with after this set of trades.
The hope is that they win in the mid-50s, go a couple of rounds deep in the playoffs, and CP3 is happy to be another Steve Nash who continues to remain loyal to his city for personal reasons and doesn’t abandon them for a title.
Longshot? Sure. But trading a HOF player like CP3 is a disaster for them. Trading a superstar for a few decent players never ever plays out well for the team that trades the superstar.
So your first proposal— that they trade CP3— is a nonstarter. The second, of trading their chips for future assets, is something that fans might respond to but players never ever care about. They don’t care about rookies and draft picks. They’ve seen too many flame out or bust to stick to a team because they have some first round picks.
Finally, if you have a CP3, you only really have a Plan A. Plan B is you get really really bad for several years and get high lottery picks, and maybe you might get lucky and get another CP3. If you have Collison after CP3 leaves or not really doesn’t matter when you’re in this situation.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
talent isn’t fungible; you need to balance the roster.
It’s also possible that one trade in August wouldn’t be the last move that the Hornets will make to balance their roster. If Portland (or another team) offered them better talent that duplicated a position on their roster (PF, etc) they could hypothetically flip that superior asset for a better SF than Ariza before or during the preseason
As Cho said, sometimes you acquire assets to use for future deals. Not every incoming player needs to leave the roster perfectly balanced, especially not during the offseason
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Who?
What SF is available where the trading partner also takes back the Posey contract, both for a decent but hardly a surefire all-star like Collison? No one is giving you Durant or Melo for Collison.
Tayshaun? debatable whether he’s better at this point and has a worse contract. Kirilenko? Terrible contract. Luol? Terrible contract. What other starters are available that you’d rather have over Ariza?
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I haven't really thought about it
because the Blazers don’t have a need at SF since Matthews signed
and my point was more hypothetical than a criticism of the Hornet’s decision. Teams can certainly make deals that don’t automatically balance their roster during the offseason. Sure, it looks prettier when they do, but the goal should be to acquire talent, unless you’re a contender who is looking to fill a specific need.
If Ariza’s play at SF puts NO into the playoffs and convinces CP3 to stick around, then he’ll be worth Collison and more. I just don’t Trevor as being that kind of difference-maker, but at least this deal guarantees that Monty isn’t going to be coaching Nic Batum again, any time soon (which makes me relieved, and happy)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
The point I'm making isn't that Ariza's so great,
but he’s pretty great compared to who he’ll be replacing from last year, which are the gimpy corpses of Peja, Posey, Mo Pete and Julian Wright. He’s probably as great as you’re going to get with Collison as a chip, and they also managed to dump Posey’s contract.
It was a good trade, even though they traded away more talent than they got back, because this is maximizing their chance of keeping CP3. It’s far from making it a no brainer, but they’ve used their one decent trade chip to shore up a huge weakness on their squad.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions
For the downside of trading for Collison, see Dave's comment
last season about what that would mean that the Blazers are saying to Jerryd Bayless: “We don’t see enough improvement or think you are the PGOTF, or we feel you need some competition, etc.”
I think Cho could have offered NO a better package for Collison. That he did not do so probably means he believes in Bayless.
by MiledAnimal on Aug 11, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Cho could have offered NO a better package for Collison. That he did not do so probably means he believes in Bayless.
That’s one way to look at it. Another way is that Cho may not be interested in adding a young veteran PG to the Blazer’s roster. He may be more interested in eventually adding a veteran in his mid-late 20s to replace Andre
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I knew this was coming
Knee-jerk criticism for Rich because he didn’t get his fingers into this deal
the next response I expect is “KP would’ve found a way to acquire Collison!”
coming in 3…2…1
(not to mention KP could’ve moved up in the 2009 draft to select Darren failry easily, if he had really wanted to…)
Andre Miller is the Blazer’s starting PG of the present. Jerryd Bayless is the PGOTF. Embrace it, Blazer fans! (At least, until Cho makes a deal involving Parker or Harris…)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Aug 11, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
For some -
It’s a missed opportunity … for some it’s a knee-jerk criticism.
Thanks for the belittling feeling you are happy to give to others.
"Who Shot KP?" - Krang
He's right though
Cho’s going to get unfair criticism for not being involved in any trade that goes on in the NBA. Folks are too anxious to crown Cho our new king and forget that not every trade we make is for our benefit.
Do you know it's a missed opportunity?
You’re assuming Cho was interested in Collison, because…you are
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yes
I often project my desires onto what I think the team should do … why would I be here if I didn’t. Well O.K., also to learn what others are thinking.
Yes, I would have loved to see Collison in a Blazer uniform. I have no idea if Cho thought about getting in on this, or talked to anyone about this. If he got wind of this I would think he would look at Collison as a player and then if that player would be good for the team.
It is a missed opportunity IMO.
"Who Shot KP?" - Krang
speculation is what we're all about, here
but I’ve not seen or heard any evidence that the Blazers were ever interested in Darren
I just know that a number of Blazer fans think that are—but that’s two different things—and their desire shouldn’t be used as an indictment on Cho if Indy acquired Collison for Murphy
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I just know that a number of Blazer fans think that are
oops, should read “I just know that a number of Blazer fans are…”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
We were only a little interested in him when we work him out last summer.
He could have been on the radar but to avoid being put into a compromising situation, it’s possible we kept our mouths shut about our interest in him. That is all speculation though. :D
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
and yet, the speculation about Portland's interest in Hansbrough leaked out
There’s internet chatter, then there’s an actual rumor. My take has been that KP went into the ‘09 draft without a need for a young PG, because he had drafted Bayless in the lottery the year before, and he already had Rodriguez and Blake on the roster. KP is not David Kahn; he mainly selected extra PGs in the second round at Paul Allen’s behest (Taurean Green, Patty Mils, etc) Jerryd was the exception
This desire for Collison was fan-generated, and to blame Cho for not acquiring him this week is pathetic (but completely predictable…)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
What's your problem with Collison?
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 12, 2010 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, it's crummy KP was more focused on trading up for Tyler Hansbrough and ...
settling on Victor Claver. Rather, KP should’ve instead directed his attention toward drafting someone who possessed the court vision and distributing prowess needed to handle the point — as well as play off the ball at times and spread the floor — with Darren Collison being the perfect fit back in 2009.
Just because we're not hearing about things doesn't mean that nothing is happening
We don’t really know much about Cho’s style yet, but there’s a good chance that he moves more quietly than Pritchard did. I wouldn’t be surprised if there aren’t as many trade rumors, etc. as we got used to hearing about in the last few years.
To add to this, the theory around the park was that KP was Jason Quick's source.
I don’t think Cho has warmed up to anyone in the media and his history of being oout of it is a distinction of his more silent practices.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Ah, now that's an interesting idea I haven't heard before...
The Vulcans flew somebody in to plug the security breach… and found Penn and KP giving away state secrets…. better than a lot of other theories I’ve heard.
it's not a theory for KP's firing
it’s a theory for why the flow of Quick’s inside info seems to have dried up.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
It's OK. Brian Smith is building a monument to Cho.
Once it’s finished Cho will be spilling everything to him on a regular basis.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 12, 2010 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Sounds like a theory to me...
I was commenting to the title of the previous poster:
theory around the park was that KP was Jason Quick’s source.
If the theory is that KP was a source for one beat writer, that could get him canned.. all I’m sayin..
Are you sure you're not just bored?
The off-season is long. It would be nice to have something to read about. I can’t imagine that the perfect trade is out there waiting for us, but Cho is too lazy do it or something.
Blazers win if we get Murphy for Rudy + Pryz
This could still happen. Nets Owner wants a Euro Star for the fans back home.
Murphy wold be great off the bench for us. Our version of Lamar Odom… But better 3’s!
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Murphy sucks on defense.
I don’t think that deal would work anyway since Murphy makes $12M next season.
Nets throw in $$$
and we throw in Pendy. IT WORKS!!
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Need one more contract I think since cash doesn't count towards matching contracts.
But the bigger issue is that Murphy sucks on defense anyway. I’d rather get Outlaw back than Troy Murphy.
We have Marcus Camby and Greg Oden, REMEMBER?
What this team really needs is reliable shooting and rebounding. Murphy brings both. Plus he isn’t THAT BAD at Defense. Not to mention he is an expiring contract, so we could trade him if it doesn’t work out.
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
He is really bad at defense.
From YaoPau of blog-a-bull:
Pacers DRatings with Murphy on/off court…
2010: 110.0 on, 106.0 off
2009: 112.4 on, 107.3 off
2008: 109.8 on, 107.4 off
2007: 111.1 on, 105.3 off
The Pacers were consistently roughly 5 points per 100 possessions with Murphy on the court for the past 4 seasons. That’s quite bad, and I wouldn’t want to trade any useful players for him.
But he has played with bad teams his entire career
Golden State and Indiana. And considering he was playing against other teams starters vs. bench players those numbers aren’t really worth much.
Like I said before, off the bench he would be perfect for our team.
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
No, Troy Murphy is a god-awful defender; he's an utter sieve.
The last thing Portland needs to do is get worse on defense, since it’s only average at best to begin with and woefully substandard compared to actual contenders.
Honestly, where do you get these facts from?
He isn’t the best defender, but you making him out as a total Z-Bo on D is really random.
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s hard to say how bad he is, but just from watching him regularly it’s pretty easy to see that he’s certainly not a good one on one or weakside defender. For number indications e.g. check his opponent PER (which is not terribly accurate but gives and indication) and on/off stats. http://www.82games.com/0910/09IND11.HTM
There are other sites that have adjusted or regularized +/- where he also doesn’t fare very well. He’s just not strong enough to keep physical PFs away from the position they want to get to, and after his injuries also not laterally mobile enough.
"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban
Godawful might be strong, but definitely a weaksauce defender.
He’s just suuuuper slow. Makes him look really really bad against some guys, just somewhat bad against others.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions
and Murphy was the villian
who nailed Joel in the “sensitive area” a few years back
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
On defense, there's only one starting frontline player who's arguably as terrible as Troy ...
Murphy — with that being Andrea Bargnani — thus, my use of the term “god-awful” is justified here.
No, he's very bad.
All statistics and analysis I’ve ever read (and I read a lot) show and describe him as such.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
He's also the poster boy for why defensive rebounds are overrated.
Offensive rebounds, however, are most certainly of the utmost importance.
Heh all Indiana put in for Collison was Troy Murphy?
I wish we got in on that
Garden Variety Internet Denizen. Play Jerryd Bayless.
WORD UP.STAY.FRESCO
i know right, 'Dre Miller for Collison would have been far more valueable along with Rudy being included.
Dont get it from NO’s stand point. I was CP i’d be pissed right now.
by blazerbeliever97504 on Aug 11, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
huh?
how would that benefit NO? Trades are a two way street
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Does NJ value Murphy as an expiring deal or for his talent (if he's ever healthy again)?
I can’t figure it out for them unless they’re clearing more space for a future deal.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
I think the idea is to wait and see.
He brings a veteran presence for a young team at the big spots. While it could help spell Favors from starting if he’s not ready.
I’d like to see what they do with that $12M EC.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
It's official!!!
You all can now completely forget about seeing Chris Paul in a Portland uniform, time for us to move on.
by doomsdaymachine on Aug 11, 2010 11:07 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
fine with me...not sure how good his knee is going to be! or for how long AND
he could have been here for one year and then SPLIT…after the Blazers may have given up many young players…
I moved on a while ago
"We are building a fighting force of extraordinary magnitude. We forge our tradition in the spirit of our ancestors. You have our gratitude." - Rich Cho
by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Aug 11, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I was clinging to a last glimmer of hope before today
So yeah, I’m a little bummed. But on the other hand, it is nice to see a superstar actually stay with the team who drafted him, so there’s that.
Seems like a fair trade to me
Therefore no team won the trade. I guess you could call it a 4-way tie.
NJ loses in my mind.
I assume they want the TM contract for when it expires, but until that cap space turns into a actual player they are worse from this move, at least for the moment.
That doesn't really make sense though...
They traded Courtney Lee for Troy Murphy. Courtney Lee is still on his rookie deal, and he was a late 1st round pick, so he doesn’t make much. NJ is under the cap so they are allowed to make a lop-sided trade and accept the difference in salaries into their cap space. The only money they save is the amount that Courtney Lee is going to make in the future. Troy Murphy doesn’t all of a sudden become more money for them, he just allows them to trade current cap space for cap space next year. I think Courney Lee expires after this year anyways… (might be wrong though). NJ had to have done this trade because they value Troy Murphy as a player, or they think they can move his attractive expiring contract in a trade for a better player.
I agree. NJ loses.
Harris isn’t a shooter. Lee is gone. Why would a team let Lopez get a shot off without 2 guys hanging on him while he tries to get it off.
Morrow... high efficiency, poor defense. Murphy, Outlaw... low efficiency, poor defense
Not a equation that is going to add wins.
Probably but you first remarked about shooting not defense.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Did you catch my post about forgetting about Morrow that I posted before talking defense?
Lee is a talented player, but Morrow makes him somewhat expendable. A lot of talk about missing on DC. I think you could argue we missed out on Lee. He would have been much more affordable than WM and with a bit more of a track record on a much more affordable deal. Not sure if he was on our radar and if we had anything that would have interested NJ.
WM
the value of taking him away from Utah can not be understated
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
not to mention
WM >>>> AM as a defender
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Having two lock down wing defenders .....
in Batum and Matthews – how nice is that!
the Blazer's wing position
has done a 180 degree turn in regards to perimeter defense and BBIQ in the last 2 years
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yes, BBIQ
Travis and Martel to Nic and Wesley. Big improvement.
don't forget
Matthews >>> Fernandez, as a perimeter defender
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
You have to look at Murphy as a being able to give you a few option as a fitting veteran player and an asset financial.
Then it makes some sense.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
It makes some sense from a need perspective.
If they don’t move Murphy doesn’t make much sense from a $ perspective. He costs a lot for what he brings. I’m a closet GS fan and always rooted for Murph. It is not his fault that Mullen signed him to an overpaid deal. It’s a contract year. Maybe he plays great again to get a new deal.
Definitely could. Maybe NJ likes him but are looking to sign him to a more reasonable contract at the years end
but had to spend the money now to get his rights.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
I do
My dream team would have him as the PF and Tim Tebow as the point guard.
by tominhawaii on Aug 11, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
you forgot
JJ Redick, Luke Harangody, and Brian Scalabrine
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't forget
there were rumors that Portland/KP was trying to move up in the ’09 draft to select not Collison, but Psycho T
another bullet dodged, unfortuately the “DeJuan Blair bullet” also proved to be elusive
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Why does Houston do this trade?
Was Ariza THAT much of a disappointment that they’d move him for Courtney Lee? Lee’s not a bad player, but Ariza’s supposedly a budding star right?
Also, hard to tell if Nawleans gets better or worse. They add Ariza, which should make Paul happy because they’re actually trying to get better by doing so. But they lose Collison, who was their PGOTF considering Paul’s probably going to bolt after his contract is up.
$$$
They were going to be way into luxury tax level and needed to dump salary somehow
by Nicky Glasses on Aug 11, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
And after nabbing Kevin Martin last year, they didn’t need Ariza as much (not that they’re particularly similar players or that they couldn’t play together).
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
Courtney Lee is a very nice player and I suspect better value.
I haven’t looked his contract, but I know Ariza was overpaid.
I kind of had that thought too
about Houston. Then I remembered that Daryl Morey is pretty good with snagging good players on the sly. So, I’m going to assume some of his top-secret metrics tell him that Lee will perform better than Ariza for the money.
by Montavilla Steve on Aug 11, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
and yet...
It was Morey that gave Ariza the contract that many call over-priced. Seems like he maybe biffed it a bit with Ariza.
"I'm a man, but I can change.....if I have to......I guess." - Red Green
by antediluvian on Aug 11, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
or he anticipated Yao being healthy...and/or TMac
which would have changed everything
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup
Ariza was not ready to be the focal point of an offense. While some dreamed at his potential on offense the real world results last season indicated what his ceiling is offensively which hurt his value around the league now that we know what he is on that end of the floor.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
May have been a knee-jerk reaction to the loss of Artest
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
ding ding ding
I am a fan of Courtney Lee, in a vacuum I would trade Ariza for him. But when he is going to be stuck behind Kevin Martin and neither player is a multi-position player…. It just seems silly. Perhaps they are looking to make another move…
They're in the luxury tax, so they saved something like $8 mil from this move, yearly
If you want proof of their cost-cutting, see dumping David Andersen for a draft pick.
Plus I think with Battier and Budinger, they were looking to free up SF minutes.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
well when you put it like that....
I still think its a bad move to have 2 players that can only play sg who both deserve legitimate minutes. Both played over 30mpg last season. There isn’t room for both of them without significantly hurting one or both players trade value. Money talks though…
Yeah, I'm sure they'd have rather had a big guy, but if they wanted to dump salary, it's what they had to do.
On-court it’s not perfect, but replaces a 3-man logjam with a cheaper 2-man logjam.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Courtney Lee is a better fit for a team playing around 24 minutes per game than 32 minutes ...
per game, which is noted by the difference in success between Orlando in 2008-2009 and New Jersey last season.
Agree. Pacers were the clear winners.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I'm a Troy Murphy fan
He’s nothing close to being someone to build a team around, but he can be pretty deadly from 3pt range and can really pull down the boards. I voted for New Jersey simply because they didn’t give up much (except for the potential of Lee) and get a great one-year rental, some significant cap space or perhaps the ability to resign Murphy longer term.
Obviously Indiana could be getting a steal with Collison but I’m not 100% sold on Collison’s long-term success in the league, his lack of size being perhaps my biggest concern.
I think that's fair
NJ could use a floor spacer to help Lopez out a bit.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
I don't worry about size at the 1.
It’s not a serious concern. Plenty of guys are pretty small and succeed at the PG position.
I'm gonna be the only A-hole that owns a Nic Batum jersey that doesn't live in France. Awesome.
Until you face D Will, Dre, Rose, Evans, etc. in the playoffs
Then you get real tired of seeing the other PG reek havoc on your tiny PG.
Also, the bigger guys tend to age better.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
One man's treasure...
Murphy isn’t garbage, but his contract is ugly. Many here tend to complain about LMA playing away from the basket and getting overpaid. Perhaps NJ likes Murphy and thinks they can re-sign Murphy for a reasonable deal next year. I like what Lee brought to NJ more than Murphy. I don’t get it from NJ point of view.
Buuuut they acquired him with their cap space...so unless they're planning to flip him...
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Thank God! He was untradeable until now.
by 52therim on Aug 11, 2010 1:54 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
What I like is that the teams from the west (NO and Houston) seemed to get the short end of the stick on this trade.
What I don’t like is that I was really hoping to see Collison in red and black by the trade deadline. Oh well, anything that makes the west weaker helps the Blazers.
"I just played my game. I didn't do anything special. Just take the open shot, make cuts to basket, get rebounds. That's it." ~Nic Batum
I could care less who won...this hurts Portlands chance of trading for Paul.
One more potential player that Portland can trade for is off the market. What in the hell is Cho waiting on, it’s clear he knows that the Blazers weak spot is at PG and of all the rumors floating around he hopefully is up to something.
Kenneth Lewis Moore
Couldn't disagree more
PG is the one spot where we have the best opportunity to improve.
How so?
With CP3 presumably off the market, we can trade for Devin Harris or Tony Parker, both of which are pretty much lateral moves when you’re looking at our championship window. Miller has been integrated into the team, will not get injured, and has enough veteran saavy to put us in good position for a deep playoff run, given that Oden is healthy.
Speaking of Oden, the Center position is technically where we have the best opportunity to improve. We don’t have to give up anyone and we already have the necessary pieces. Now we just have to make sure he can stay healthy. If that’s the case, we’ll be looking at a likely WCF run this year.
Lateral move based on talent, but not on fit .....
Okay, I agree with you that we will improve drastically at the center position this year just by getting healthy. Oden and Camby vs Howard and JP, no question. If Oden can stay on the court, even for 24 minutes a game, this team gets a lot better, very fast.
My assumption is that the best place to improve this team strong>externally is at PG.
Miller, Harris and Parker are all quality PG’s in this league. I like Parker and Harris a bit more, but I can see where one could argue that Miller is equal. But they each bring different talents to the game, and I think Parker or Harris’ talents fit better next to Roy. I just can’t get past the fact that our starting PG is the worst perimeter shooting PG in the league. Parker and Harris aren’t 40%, but they are better. Nate said he wanted shooters to open up the court. Miller cannot do that. I also think that Harris is a much better defender of the smaller, quicker PG’s.
It you put the ball in Miller’s hands on this team, he does well. Parker and Harris – would do equally well. But put the ball in Roy’s hands (where you want it in crunch time), and Miller isn’t doing anything to help Roy’s game. From that standpoint, I don’t see it as a lateral move.
Depending on what NJ plans to do this season, they could be fairly enamored by ECs.
I like Miller, I really do but Harris could be attainable if NJ wants to open up more capspace this next summer.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Absolutely agree ....
Throw in the fact that he and new head coach Avery Johnson did not get along at Dallas, and that their owner wants an international team, and that one of their local writers wrote about how they need a veteran like Andre Miller to help with the young guys ……
Seems like Rudy/Joel or Rudy/Andre would interest them.
Neither Parker and Harris are good shooters
Parker is essentially a younger Miller with championship experience. Not a good shooter at all. Harris is somewhat a better shooter, but not by any means what you would call a decent perimeter player. So I’m afraid I’m not seeing how these guys would be a better fit than Miller at all. If Miller isn’t doing anything to help out when the ball is in Roy’s hands, then good luck getting either Parker or Harris to do anything.
Sometimes experience is everything.
Devin Harris has been to the Finals and is very adept at defense. Also a younger version of Miller which can be ideal in establishing a dynasty with th rest of the young roster entering their prime.
Parker is a proven championship MVP player and is relatively young but also with immense veteran experience.
Decisions like these ones aren’t easy and I like Miller but if the FO thinks there is viable reason to trade him for another player that will take us to the top then you have to let them consider it. Let them have their due diligence.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
But they are better shooters
and Harris is a better defender ….
and Parker has led a team to a championship …..
It's all about how much the marginal benefit is worth.
T4L thinks it’s worth LMA for DeJuan Blair. I think it’s worth Rudy and a rookie/pick, not much more.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
you won't be on the phone for 30 seconds with RC Buford
if all you offer for Parker is Rudy and a rookie/pick
(unless that rookie was Batum in ‘08 or the pick was Portland’s unprotected #1 back in ‘06-’07)
Marginal PG upgrade during the regular season? Sure. During the post season? That’s where Parker has Miller by the shorties
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I know. I'm not particularly interested in trading for him.
SA values him higher than I do, and that’s as it should be. He fits their timeline and system much better, not to mention the cost of the adjustment period of any trade.
I know you have a strong belief in his playoff experience, but I just don’t put that much value on it. I really don’t think it’s worth trading a near All-Star for a solid starter at best (who’s short, has weight/attitude issues, no ACLs, and doesn’t prove a stylistic fit with Oden).
Not that I don’t like Blair – he would’ve been a steal in the 2nd round. And I’m aware that Camby can fill in for LMA with little to no drop off, but that’s for the next two seasons max. It’s still giving up way too much, in my opinion. Part of this is because I don’t think the team circumstances make or break a player – KG was still a great player when Minnesota sucked, and Miller is still a good point guard even though he’s never been part of a particularly good team.
Not to mention, you need the talent to get to the 2nd round or WCF regardless of the experience. I think this team as currently constructed can get to the 2nd round, no problem, and at what point do the players we already have become playoff veterans? I’m thinking of the Orlando Magic here, for example. They had a first round exit, a second round exit, and then made it to the finals.
Sorry, this became an extended thing, but this is something you bring up a lot so I’ve had some cause to think about it. It’s really a question of what attributes you value in your players.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
where expereince becomes important
let’s say this year’s Blazers make it to the semis, then the year after they reach the conference finals (strike-shortened year) then finally in 2012-2013 they reach the finals. Roy will be going on 29, and who knows how healthy his knees will be by the spring of 2013, when Oden and Batum are in their primes?
The only shortcut to this process is adding veterans who have been to the finals, before. I was looking back at the Spurs roster the first year that Duncan won a ring (98-99) They had old Bull’s players like Kerr and Perdue. They had a 10 year vet PG (Avery Johnson) They had Jerome Kersey and Mario Elie, mentally-tough veterans of the playoff wars. And of course they had Robinson and Elliot who had been teammates for years.
This is what a championship-caliber roster looks like, not a collection of players in their early-mid 20s with a couple of vets who have just over 100 playoff games, combined.
If Portland keeps adding 3-4 rookies every spring and never backfills their roster with playoff-hardy veterans, they could skate right past Roy’s prime years without a trophy to show for his efforts. And that would be a shame, especially if all it would cost them is to take a risk on a deal that moves an aging PG and a quasi-all-star (soft) PF for a younger veteran PG who actually knows what the NBA finals are all about, already. (And another banger who treats every rebound like it’s his personal property)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Stylistic fit is way more important than playoff experience, which ...
is why Tony Parker would be a pointless addition for the Portland Trail Blazers. Again, there’s a reason why Gregg Popovich avoids playing Manu Ginobili and Parker alongside each other for too many minutes; it’s because they’re both ball dominant, high usage backcourt players who thrive on being a co-#1 option on offense with Tim Duncan.
With Roy, that’d be an even bigger problem with Parker than it already is with Ginobili. Heck, at least Ginobili is a solid perimeter defender — while Roy is a sieve like Parker — and the Argentine isn’t as hindered by the Frenchman’s lack of floor spreading ability due to hitting 3s at a career 37.6% clip.
What about Parker and Oden?
Why does the only attribute that seems to be important re: a future Blazer PG is how he and Roy get along? Oden thrived last fall when Miller was on the floor, and Parker has played with a dominant big man since he came into the league. I don’t expect Roy or LMA to ever pass the ball directly to Greg that much, so whoever the future PG is will need to run the PnR and make eye-contact with #52 and toss him a lob pass from time to time
Miller can already do this, but not all PGs have the same court vision. Let’s not make this all about “which PG would match up the best with Brandon?” or determinant on how much lateral quickness the next PG exhibits on the defensive end, etc. A PG who can penetrate but never dishes the ball, or spots up in the corner like Blake isn’t attractive as a creator who keeps #52 involved on offense
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I agree 100% that Andre Miller is a great option at feeding ...
Greg Oden with post entry passes and running the pick-and-roll with him, although that could be solved just as easily with someone such as Kirk Hinrich. Unlike Tony Parker, Hinrich is low usage, can spread the floor, can cut quickly to the basket on give-and-go plays, and is a tenacious defender.
Yeah, I’d still take Hinrich in a heartbeat — even at the cost of Miller, although that’d need to be a three-team deal — yet, the chance of that is next to nil.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=27u2nsu
To even out that deal from a trade value standpoint, the New York Knicks would send back a future first-round draft pick — which’d be conveyed sometime between 2014 and 2017 — and $3,000,000 in cash considerations to offset what the team originally paid to obtain Rudy Fernandez’s draft rights in 2008.
And yes, I know I’m in the minority with my advocacy of Hinrich.
Cap'n Kirk was acquisition du jour back in 2009
just like CP3 trade proposals have dominated this offseason
After so long it seems like if the Blazers really wanted Hinrich they would’ve swung a deal by now. Perhaps Cho feels like you still do, because the Hinrich-Roy backcourt certainly wasn’t a bad idea, at least up until the point that Andre was signed.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I'll join the Hinrich bandwagon
Unlike Tony Parker, Hinrich is low usage, can spread the floor, can cut quickly to the basket on give-and-go plays, and is a tenacious defender.
AK1984 – I couldn’t agree more. Well said. I wouldn’t snub my nose at getting Parker or Harris, as I believe they are an upgrade over Miller, but like Miller, their highest value comes with the ball in their hands. I am in complete agreement with you that the starting PG for the Blazers needs to be one that can play off the ball, spread the floor, make free throws, and defend.
Hinrich actually would rate third on my list – behind Curry and Billups. But I seriously doubt those two are available, and one would certainly think that Hinrich would be available with Arenas and Wall on the Wizards’ roster.
I know there are many on this site that will argue Miller is better than Hinrich, and in might be a fair argument when looking just at talent. But, in the Blazer lineup/system, I think Hinrich would be a nice upgrade. The unfortunate thing is that in order to get him, you may end up overpaying.
Pryzbilla/Fernandez for Hinrich. At that point you would need to trade Miller. Charlotte is probably the best destination, but I don’t see anything that the Blazers would want on their roster. Might need to involve a third team.
I also like the contrast in Hinrich and Bayless’ games.
Better but by how much?
If they’re still under the level of “solid” then what’s the point? Is it really worth giving up a guy who is highly unlikely to get injured for guys that will increase the FG% of the PG position by single digits?
I’ll give you that Harris is a better defender, and that Parker has led his team to a championship, those are valid points.
Thanks, and ....
I’ll give you that Miller is much more durable, and already embedded into the Blazer system. It’s a fair discussion.
I just lean the other way because I think the Blazers need improvement on guys that can spread the floor. They already traded away Outlaw, Blake, Webster and soon to be Rudy – and I support all of those moves. But they have to backfill with some better shooting.
Batum shot 40% from downtown
Matthews shot 37% as a rookie
Bayless shot 37% after the all-star break
Roy’s 3pt percentage should improve with healthier legs
Babbitt could be used as a designated sniper
The starting PG doesn’t “have” to be a 3pt marksman for Portland, that’s just what fans have grown accustomed to
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yep, Duncan should have gotten that Finals MVP that season...
Even though Parker was outstanding in the Finals, Duncan was the best player on that team. Parker has been IMO the clear third leg of the Spurs’ big three even though Ginobili comes off the bench.
agreed
and it’s not a knock on Parker. I love his game. But would I take him over Miller at this point? In a vacuum, yes, but is it worth making the trade, integrating, etc, probably not at this point. If he had 3 pt range it would be a different story
Miller has been integrated into the team, will not get injured, and has enough veteran saavy to put us in good position for a deep playoff run
I agree with most of this, except the deep playoff run part. Parker has been MVP of an NBA finals, while Andre has never played in May
Parker would be an upgrade for this reason alone
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
That's true
But Parker is likely to get injured. I’d rather have a PG who we can guarantee will be there in our playoff run and rely on than a PG who has a whole lotta experience but may or may not be present when it’s needed.
it's a roll of the dice
quite a few independent observers (including the new GM) have mentioned that the Blazer’s roster needs more veteran experience, in addition to Miller and Camby. I have no trouble with keeping Miller around for 2 more years (depending on how the upcoming post season plays out) but the opportunity to snag a PG like TP doesn’t come along very often, and it will disappear in 6 months (unless the Spurs want to try a sign and trade during the lockout, which I doubt)
Dave wrote a fanpost about a year ago that mentioned that the young Blazers needed a “sherpa” to show them the way up the mountain. The best PG candidates for that role are Parker and Billups. Chauncey isn’t available and is on the wrong side of 30, That leaves Parker. (Harris doesn’t have nearly the same level of experience, Derek Fisher is not the answer, Rondo is not available, etc) So I’m targeting Tony, while wondering if the Blazers see things the same way (Batum’s comment on draft day, etc)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Cho said we were one or two pieces away
Could you direct me to where he said we need more vet experience? I just don’t recall seeing it.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
same introductory press conference
I’m sure Ben posted a transcript of it, in the archives
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
What Portland badly needs to contend for a championship is a healthy, dominant ...
two-way post presence in Greg Oden — with the “two-way” part clearly ruiling out Joel Przybilla and his hands of stone — yet, on the contrary, an oft-injured, ball dominant 1 who’s playmaking abilities are geared more toward himself than his teammates (i.e., Tony Parker) isn’t the answer.
Your characterizations seem maddeningly inconsistent to me.
Regarding Parker, you state:
an oft-injured, ball dominant 1 who’s playmaking abilities are geared more toward himself than his teammates (i.e., Tony Parker) isn’t the answer.
Let’s look at Parker’s career stats:
PER: 18.3; TS%: .542; AST% 31.4; TO% 14.2; USG% 25.5
Now, let’s look at the stats for Collison who you have repeatedly stated you think would be a great fit next to Roy:
PER: 16.5; TS%: .546; AST% 32.9; TO% 18.9; USG% 23.1
How is one of these guys a great fit and the other is a “ball dominant 1 who’s playmaking abilities are geared more toward himself”?
Granted Collison was a better 3 pt shooter last season, but as I pointed out in a post above, he made over 2/3 of his threes for the season in one two month period. Apart from 3 pt%, how is one guy a great distributor and the other guy “geared towards himself,” when they have almost identical AST% and USG% stats?
Maybe you have a good explanation, but from here, it just like you are throwing around adjectives just to back up your own overstated opinions. Please explain.
by upper left corner on Aug 12, 2010 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions
"what the hell is Cho waiting on"
hooooold on there buddy. Making trades in the NBA isn’t quite as simple as it is in NBA 2k10. Theres a lot of negotiations that go on in the process, and NOTHING gets done quickly. Trust me.
I'm gonna be the only A-hole that owns a Nic Batum jersey that doesn't live in France. Awesome.
what you say is true
but youre coming across as if you know first-hand
by collectiveshane on Aug 11, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Well I feel like I know enough from reading and listening to interviews from GMs
but no, I’m not a front office exec myself haha
I'm gonna be the only A-hole that owns a Nic Batum jersey that doesn't live in France. Awesome.
ah shoot
if you were id be giving you all my great espn trade machine ideas :p
by collectiveshane on Aug 11, 2010 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions
NOH wins for now...
but if C3PO bails, the crown immediately is passed to the Pacers.
Stealth > Wealth
Hornets aren't done
Lots of folks reporting Julian Wright to Toronto for Bellenelli (sp), steal for the Hornets.
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
Everyone wins...
except Chris Paul. (and teams hoping to acquire Paul)
He wants to run from NO, but the team needs him too much without Darren Collison to fill his place.
You get the feeling that NO’s front office basically just destroyed their future (a bright one with a Collison Thornton backcourt) in order to keep Paul.
The best move would’ve been to slash salary, trade Okafor and Paul for more young talent (i.e. Batum) and focus on developing Collison and Thornton.
And this is why the Hornets will not win a championship within the next 10 years.
I'm gonna be the only A-hole that owns a Nic Batum jersey that doesn't live in France. Awesome.
Also Houston loses
because Lee is not nearly as good as Ariza.
Sure, Ariza is a jerk, but 6.3 mil is a pretty decent salary for what he brings to the table.
I'm gonna be the only A-hole that owns a Nic Batum jersey that doesn't live in France. Awesome.
When did Paul say he wants to run from NO?
He said he wants to win, and would prefer to stay in NO so long as they try to build a contender. I would consider todays moves to be in the right direction, although insignificant ala every move Cleveland tried to make around LBJ
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Correct ......
and LaBron still left Cleveland. I don’t know why NO is going to wait for the same outcome. They could get quite a bit fo financial relief and young talent by acting now. But I agree, trading Collison is a sign that they are going to stick it out with Paul.
Didn’t Paul suggest he wanted to leave NO when he raised a toast at Melo’s wedding proclaiming that he’d be in the next three superstar alliance with Melo and Amare in NY?
LaBron still left Cleveland. I don’t know why NO is going to wait for the same outcome.
Cleveland did everything they could to try and retain their once in a lifetime player. It didn’t work out for them…but NO would be fools to not try and do the same thing. Chances are, CP3 will leave too, but that doesn’t mean NO should go out without a fight.
I agree with you .....
chances are, CP3 will leave too
Based on his actions, I’d say there was a real good chance of this. I don’t think it would be foolish to anticipate this and trade Paul.
1. You save $52 million dollars by unloading Okafor’s contract. (less the amount of the one year EC that you take back).
2. You save $49 million dollars on Paul’s contract (less the amount of the EC you take back).
3. You get some nice young talent. In the example of a trade to Portland – that might be a Batum, Bayless, Fernandez. And probably some draft picks.
Thus, you get out from underneath your salary cap situation, you get some nice young talent, and draft picks. I think both Portland and Oklahoma City have shown the blueprint on how to rebuild your team quickly through superb evaluation of young talent. I don’t see that as foolish, especially when we agree that the chances are high that Paul is leaving.
I respect your opinion on this ....
I just wouldn’t go as far as saying NO would be “fools” to trade Paul, if they felt there was a high risk of losing him.
Nobody thinks this was a good trade for NJ
They get depth up front with Lopez, Favors, and Murphy, and they don’t have to rely on Favors if he isn’t ready. Troy’s a decent player and he can space the floor really well for Lopez. Plus, T-Will doesn’t have to compete for minutes with Lee anymore. I’m telling you, the Nets might actually win 13 maybe even 14 games next year.
It was a good trade for New Jersey. It just wasn’t the trade they needed to be relevant again.
"You know, when you are in the game, you hear 20,000 people behind you, you don't feel anything."
- Nicolas Batum on playing through his shoulder injury during the 2010 playoffs.
It's very difficult to make one trade to become relevant again
Wouldn’t you have to get a top-10 player for that to be true?
by Nicky Glasses on Aug 11, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, that's the point, I think
This trade lets them bring along Favors at his own pace, which is absolutely the most important thing NJ can do.
Chase Budinger
has a lot to do with the Rockets feeling comfortable moving their starting SF. Ariza is nice, has solid defensive instincts, but he’ll never be more than a slasher and transition player on offense and he is ridiculously overpaid. Budinger, on the other hand, quietly established himself as a solid NBA player who Houston has under contract for second round money.
seriously.....
we couldn’t get any action on this? all indiana gave up was Murphy!
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
I voted Indy. They were able to get what they were vying for the last few years. A PG of da Fewcha.
But they are going to be really active this year. They will still have $28M in ECs to use this year. They have a huge logjam at the SF position, which was made clear after the acquisition of Paul George. They currently have Granger, Dunleavy, Posey and George a that position. 3 have proven they can play, Granger isn’t moving and now Posey won’t be until at earliest Dec., Dunleavy is an EC and George was noted for being redundantly similar to Granger and speculalted to be a trade chip going into the season.
Will they make more moves? I think so.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
By the way. the way i see. NJ could come out on top depending on what happens to Murphy.
At this point I think Indy comes out on top but NJ could make a splash with Murphy’s contract.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
I don't think this makes NO's any better this year or in the future.
The impact Ariza brings will just off set the impact that Collision and Posey brought. Ariza is not that good, he had a good playoff performace 2 years ago, and got himself a big contract. Last year he was terrible for the Rockets, which is why they were eager to ship him out of town.
All this shows me is that NO’s is trying to show Paul they are trying. Still if I’m Paul, I will see this as just window dressing, the Hornet’s cap space is still a mess, their ownership situation hasn’t changed, and they still need a starting 2 guard, and a some semblance of a bench, and now they have no attractive trade pieces to acquire them, and no cap room. They are still stuck as a borderline playoff team, with no future, and he will still leave in 2 years unless they can change that.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
GOSH,
With no back-up PG what Is NO gonna do when Paul is out for half the season?
If what I just commented turns out to be wrong, please delete from all memory.
Monty will call up Nate and ask to borrow one of his
since the Blazers have a few extra backup PGs
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
This 4 team trade does so much, yet does nothing at the same time.
I feel as if I just read four bridges were built to nowhere.
Before ‘all of this’ – i predicted that only one of these 4 teams will make the playoffs next year and i’m sticking to that.
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
That's the new trade algorithm in the NBA.
Make it look like your trying to do something without sticking your neck out too far.
If by interesting
You mean a high lottery pick next year, you are correcta
by doomsdaymachine on Aug 11, 2010 12:16 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe now the Trade Drawer can get on with the serious business of trading for Devin Harris
by oregonslee on Aug 11, 2010 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
no, please
If what I just commented turns out to be wrong, please delete from all memory.
by NBAstard on Aug 11, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
or
Tony Parker+DeJuan Blair for LMA+Miller?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Jeez. I'm not high on LMA, but that gives up a ton.
Especially when you consider the relative injury-proneness of Miller and Parker.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
my take is that the Spurs will ask for Batum or LMA, minimum, for Parker
And Camby+Blair+Cunningham can replace LMA easier than the next 10 years of Frenchy can be replaced. I have concerns that once Oden finds his groove again, LMA is going to become a perimeter floater and a WARP casualty. Better to flip him before his trade value slides down that slippery slope
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Uhhhhggg.... Where does this thinking come from?
LMA will be the perfect compliment to Greg this season and all the trade LMA talk will subside.
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Camby will be the perfect complement to Greg
because Marcus already knows how to make high post entry passes
The jury is out re: LaMarcus being complementary to Oden. If you mean that LMA can spread the floor by making 40-44% of his 16-22 foot jump shots, then yes he has shown that he can do that. (But then, so could Camby or Cunningham)
LMA can also box out on the defensive end so Greg can collect the rebounds. But then, so could Cunningham and DeJuan Blair at a fraction of the cost, if they were given the opportunity
I’m looking forward to seeing how Aldridge reacts to less touches on offense. Last fall during preseason he wasn’t a big fan of this idea. Roy seems to understand how less can become more, but until I hear the same take from LaMarcus I’ll keep on wondering if he’ll be the right PF to play between Oden and Batum for the next 10 years
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
He'll be the perfect compliment for 2 years, not 5-10.
I’m not great fan of LMA. But I think it’s very important that we have a core whose timeline fits together. We have that at 4 positions. I’d prefer a PG that will last (and TP’s injury history makes that more doubtful).
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
There's a definite concern regarding Greg Oden, LMA, and touches. In fact, I've had ...
that fear going on two years. Over the long haul, a healthy Oden must be an integral part of Portland’s offense if the Trail Blazers have any chance at championship glory. Aldridge, however, is an inefficient jump shooter (i.e., unlike Kevin Garnett), can’t stretch the floor (i.e., unlike Dirk Nowitzki), lazy in his preference to pop instead of roll (i.e., unlike Amar’e Stoudemire), can’t put the ball on the floor with an elbow dribble-drive game (i.e., unlike Chris Bosh), and can’t facilitate the high-low game (i.e., unlike Marcus Camby). So yeah, Aldridge has no justification for being a high usage player on offense.
And I wonder if giving up two perfectly healthy players
for two players with injury history is the way to go. I like Parker but….
would you trade Walton for Randy Smith, back in 1976?
this Randy Smith, the “other” guy who didn’t miss a game in 10 years
I’m not saying that Parker = Walton, just that you can’t look a gift horse in the mouth. Bill was a worse injury risk than Bowie or Oden for his first couple of seasons (read this article and if you can keep your eyes off Cheryl Tieggs cleavage, you’ll find that there were NBA experts who questioned Dollar Bill’s longevity at age 23) but when he finally stayed healthy Walton made everybody forget about his bone spurs and counter-culture politics.
Acquiring Parker/Blair is a roll of the dice. Will Miller/LMA take Portland deep into the playoffs? Sometimes the safe choice brings years of middlin’ returns
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I hear you loud and clear
For me it’s one of those situations where you know the deal is fair but you’re not sure it’s really the right thing to do. It wouldn’t make me cry to get Tony Parker but I’m holding out for Devin Harris. I believe he will be at home in Portland and we will see the best of his career with the Blazers. I don’t believe that will be true of Parker.
What do you think of Harris as a post feeder and lob passer?
I just got done with a lengthy response where I convinced myself that rather than looking for a PG who complements Roy, Portland should really be looking for someone who could take over for Andre and make sure Oden continues to receive frequent touches in smash position. If Devin is this kind of PG then I’ll swing my support back behind him, as it was before Miller was signed a year ago July.
Here’s a pretty good video analysis of Harris’ game, done by a Net’s blogger. A couple of concerns. Devin calls his own number a lot on the fast break (similar to Bayless) He thrives in transition, which (while many Bedgers would wish this was not the case) isn’t exactly a staple of Nate’s slow-paced system. Devin’s lazy defense is another big problem. He does do a nice job on the PnR with Lopez, and that gives me hope that Harris and Oden could hook up with similar results. A large number of Harris’ assists go to 3-point shooters, which (along with his tendency to penetrate and draw fouls) would dovetail with what Nate is looking for from a PG in his system. Besides the PnR with Lopez, Harris doesn’t receive high marks re: running a halfcourt offense, which would be a playoff concern, to me
The main reason I prize Parker is for his playoff experience, you just don’t have the opportunity to add a player with his post season pedigree to a contending roster very often, especially at a key position where a 28-29 year old veteran is needed
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I agree with you about Devin Harris, who's not the best fit on offense for ...
either Greg Oden or Brandon Roy. Sure, Harris would be an absolute boon for the team’s perimeter defense — as someone like NVE would attest to here — yet, I agree he’s not the most viable option on offense for a squad built around Oden and Roy.
Harris would be an absolute boon for the team’s perimeter defense
Not if he defends opposing PGs like he did Arroyo and Jack in those videos. I thought Sergio and Rudy were the matadors!
I know he was better with Dallas 3 years ago, but bad habits that Harris picked up in Jersey could be hard to break
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
As it is, I do presume that was mostly due to a lack of effort on the ...
part of Devin Harris. Of course, you’re right to consider that a bright red flag. So, even though my main knock on Harris is him being a ill-suited fit with Brandon Roy on offense, an eyebrow is clearly raised whenever someone’s work ethic comes into question.
No way you give up LMA to get Parker and Blair.
That leaves you with Camby and Blair at PF. Camby will be finished in 2 years and Blair is a high injury risk (fine for a 2nd round pick, but not in trade for LMA). The difference between Parker and Miller simply isn’t worth it.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 12, 2010 1:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm high on DeJuan Blair -- particularly if he's paired with Marcus Camby, who's the perfect ...
complement for him on both sides of the ball — yet, if moving LaMarcus Aldridge is the plan, I’d rather go after a low usage, superb defensive wizard like Anderson Varejao. As a frontline player, Varejao is great at all aspects of defense — whether it’s man-to-man, weakside help, switching on the pick-and-roll, rebounding, taking a charge, et cetera — and that’s a unique skill set.
I was high on Blair for a 2nd round draft pick.
It was no-risk stupid to pass on him at 31 and 33. But giving up a starter like LMA and relying on Blair’s knees, and redundant skills (with Oden), after Camby retires in a couple years makes no sense to me. LMA and Oden will be a good pairing. LMA helps open up the post and keeps Oden from being doubled by two bigs. Give that some time.
.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 12, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
It's not like Portland couldn't add another PF, in a few years
they certainly wouldn’t need more talent than Camby-Blair-Cunningham for the next 2 years at that position
I agree that DeJuan and Greg wouldn’t be a great pairing at the 4-5, so I’d simply stagger them in the rotation so there’s always a rebounding beast in the lineup. Blair and Przy could set some mean screens and own the offensive boards for 6-8 minutes a half while Greg-Marcus caught their breath. And there isn’t a jump shot on the perimeter that LMA can take that Dante couldn’t make with a similar percentage
Why always search for the worst-case scenario? These workarounds are like low-hanging fruit. LMA had better be ready to adapt his game PDQ this fall, or soon he won’t have enough intangibles to his game to overcome his impending WARP deficiencies
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
A pairing of Joel Przybilla and DeJuan Blair would bog down the offense in a ...
terrible fashion. On such a roster, the only guy Blair could really play with offensively is Dante Cunningham; however, Cunningham lacks the necessary length and strength — which is unlike his San Antonio Spurs counterpart of Antonio McDyess — to guard opposing centers and, moreover, compensate for Blair’s slothful defense. Luckily for Blair, he’s on a team with the Spurs that’ll pair him with apt fits such as Tim Duncan, Tiago Splitter, and McDyess. Heck, even Matt Bonner is a good fit on offense — albeit an awful one on defense — for Blair. Of course, a stretch 4 like Bonner should spend most of his time strictly with Duncan on the frontline.
depends on the offense
there are ways to run an offense with two post players, neither of whom is a proven outside threat
of course, Portland’s two best players who move without the ball and use hard screens to get open have left the roster this offseason, or are about to (Marty and Rudy)
but to hear most Blazer fans tell it, Joel isn’t long for the Blazers anyway, so I don’t know that it’s worth being concerned re: bogging down the offense with Przy and another banger in the game at the same time
I just like to keep reminding Bedgers about “the one who got away” (DeJuan) during KP’s draft watch
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
As AK already said, Joel and Blair would obviously be a terrible combination on offense.
there isn’t a jump shot on the perimeter that LMA can take that Dante couldn’t make with a similar percentage
That may be true in a game of HORSE. But LMA will get and make shots in NBA games that Cunningham will never get. It’s not just shooting percentage that matters, but the ability to get shots too.
Your criticism of LMA has become really boring. He would likely have gotten a near max contract this summer if he had been a free-agent. You predicted Cunningham would be starting by the end of this year – let’s talk about Power Forwards again when that happens.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 13, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
This poll indicates that we will get CP3 you guys overrate Collison.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 12:17 PM PDT reply actions
I don't thinky so.
Indy also values him pretty highly. They rid themselves of a quality big with a hefty EC to acquire him as well as take on Posey’s contract. He could be a good player for them. I’m curious how he will work in a fast pace system, I think he could excel but also look really bad some nights.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Murphy is a WARP casualty
Sure, he hits the 3 at a decent clip and pulls down some boards. On the other hand, LMA has averaged twice as many blocks/games over his career. It stands to reason that the Pacers would be looking to get Psycho-T and Hibbert more minutes. Moving Murphey makes a lot of sense considering they bring in someone a lot of people around here consider a quality point guard. All things considered Indian looks to be a better team after this trade. My comment is more aimed at the people who have asserted Collison’s superiority over Andre Miller.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I hear ya on the Collison/Miller issue.
I know that Hibbert has been a piece that Indy’s trying to grow and invest time in. I expect mores moves from them this year. They still have $28M in ECs this year ($40M before Murphy was moved!). I don’t think that TyHansbro is the ideal starting PF but I could see how he could be a fit next to Hibbert. McBob maybe earned himself some more minutes, Idk.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
indeed McBob has looked good
Except against NBA players where I quite frankly haven’t seen him.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm starting to think that poll indicates how everyone is overrating Ariza.
Dude is not that good.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
by dpnim on Aug 11, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
about time someone agreed with me
rec for you!
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Ariza's value last summer
was somewhere near Batum. I don’t imagine Nicco would look too great as a number 1/2 option of offense either. Ariza looked nice in LA because all he had to do was play defense and hit a jump shot.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions
this
I love Batum as much as anyone…but lets be real he wouldn’t exactly flourish if his starting line was Chuck Hayes, Scola, Battier, and Brooks…now would he?
by Billy Hoyle on Aug 11, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Well let's see. He'll be the 1st or 2nd option on Les Bleus at the WCs in Turkey.
Something tells me he will do well.
Even if it’s not the NBA, it’s still very highly talented players.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
I have high hopes as well
France will not have Noah which will hurt them a lot. We know what Ariza can do on offense after last season. We don’t know what Nic can do. That is why he is the sexier prospect.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Sound and fury signifying….not much. There is a lot of wait and see in this trade. Indiana gets the better of it because they get a PG and gave up very little. NO gets rid of the bad contract for Ariza but you still have to wonder if it is enough to keep Paul around (not in my opinion but there may be more trades to come for them). Not sure what NJ is doing except getting Murphy’s EC (future trade piece?) Houston saved some money and unclogged themselves at the 3 but I am not sure they got better as a team.
What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
Posey's contract wasn't that bad. Nearly equal to Arizas and only for 2 more years.
They lost Collison in the mean time, the only benefit is that Ariza will be a bit more productive than Posey.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Good summary imo
Except Ariza is an upgrade with more $ committed so I don’t see it as a salary dump. I also see this as better for the Rockets than others. Lee has a nice future. Houston needed a little more punch on offense.
by 52therim on Aug 11, 2010 2:05 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Nets and Pacers come out on top.
The Nets desperately need a starting PF next to Brook Lopez. Murphy will spread the court and gather up rebounds. Derrick Favors is not ready to play big minutes this season. With the signing of Morrow and the emergence of Williams, Lee became expendable.
The Pacers give up an expiring contract to pick up their PG of the future. Collison will get plenty of minutes and flourish in the Pacers up and down game. Frontcourt depth is severely challenged with Hibbert, Foster, Hansbrough, and McBob.
Morey cleans up his own mess by removing Ariza from the payroll. He is betting Battier and Budinger will cover Ariza’s inefficient production. But most likely, with the addition of Martin, Ariza’s offense was no longer needed. Lee is in better situation to play off the ball like he did in Orlando.
Hornets made a trade to appease CP3 not necessarily to strengthen the team for the long term. This is a band-aid and keeps the Hornets cash-strapped up to CP3’s free agency.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
by blzrfan on Aug 11, 2010 12:28 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Disagree
GS gave Murphy every chance to make them better. So did Indy. I don’t think the fans of those teams feel like Murphy can do for NJ what some are suggesting. Low efficiency on offense. Poor defense. I think NJ ought to give Favors as many minutes as possible. Playing Murphy more doesn’t make them a playoff team. Look to the future!
by 52therim on Aug 11, 2010 2:12 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree somewhat
Murphy won’t make them better. But Favors is definitely too raw for serious minutes. I think NJs biggest fear is a repeat of last years run at record losses. If they plug in Murphy, they can still limit his time and play Favors for stretches, but probably put 20-30 wins together as well.
Any time you can squeeze out Jianlian, you do it.
He was the worst starting PF in the league. Murphy ain’t that bad and Favors is still raw. They Nets surrounded Harris and Lopez with more outside shooting. That’s a good step.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Actually, Murphy is fairly efficient on offense - over 55% TS the last two years.
He’s also a fairly good rebounder.
However, you’re right that his defense was pretty bad.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I think it's decent for a stretch 4.
It’s better than most guards, but worse than guys who play close to the basket primarily.
I said ‘fairly efficient’ – nothing special, but not ‘low efficiency’ as the post I was responding to intended.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I agree with every point but have a question about one
What makes you think Collison will flourish in the Pacers up and down game? I don’t seem to remember UCLA playing an up and down style, and if I remember correctly the Hornets have had a PACE in the bottom half of the league the past few years.
by Nicky Glasses on Aug 11, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed/
UCLA has always been known to run a fairly slow offense. And last year, NO was running half-court sets. I think that Collison could do well in Indy’s system but will have nights where he will look really bad. High turn over rate, inefficiency and poor shot selection are bound to follow. But there will be nights where he will look like a stud. Playing along side Granger and big man like Hibbert, I wouldn’t see why not.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
That's intuition on my part.
CP3 plays in the same Hornets system and I think most people would agree he’s a great PG for an uptempo offense. Collison moves fast and I think his vision is adequate. Jim O’Brien has been forced to use guys like Jarrett Jack, TJ Ford, Earl Watson, and AJ Price. I think Collison is better than all those names. He will have tremendous freedom and opportunity as the primary ball handler. Although, I do think his pick and roll game will suffer without a guy like David West.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
It's all part of Cho's plan
Now we can do a straight deal – Collison for Bayless.
We get a young true PGOTF. They get the guy we stole from them. Its a win-win.
Speaking of which, how's Brandon Rush doing?
I haven’t heard much but heard he’s acclimating himself pretty decently now. Nothing write home about though.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Except Collison would not play well in our system
fast paced player, high-turnover, likes to shootshootshoot.
Coach would rather throw himself off a cliff than give him 25 minutes a night.
Although the argument can be made that he’s very similar to Paul, the difference is that Paul is a proven 1st option, and should really be the first guy to shoot. Can’t say that about Collison.
I'm gonna be the only A-hole that owns a Nic Batum jersey that doesn't live in France. Awesome.
I don't understand how
Giving up Troy Murphy and his expiring contract for Darin Collison and James Posey helps Indiana at all. I say the nets won because they got Murphy (and his contract, but that had the money to spend) for Courtney Lee. Houston will be worse without Ariza, so they lose IMO.
Indy has been extremely unstable without a quality PG to run their fast paced offense.
O’Brien has a trust issue with his PGs. Although, I think it’s his coaching and system that are at fault.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Hmm, you are overrating Troy and underrating Collison.
And any team desperate enough to start Earl Watson for half the season will obviously benefit hugely by acquiring any semi-decent PG. Collison is more than semi-decent.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Voted for Indiana but could've voted for Hornets too.
Huge huge upgrade on the wing, will help quite a bit in retaining CP3. Basically if CP3 stays because they’re suddenly relevant again, this is a huge win. If CP3 still leaves, then they sacrificed a little more talent than they got back.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 12:43 PM PDT reply actions
Posey must be a headcase
How could he look so good in Boston and so bad in Nawlens? Anyone have a reasonable explanation?
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Age.
Plus he was never that good in Boston, he just fit his role well. He’s been the same player his entire career, just a little worse for the past few years. He was basically the same in Miami before he went to Boston, too.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for clearing this up
I was under the impression that he was a clutch shooter in the playoffs for Boston. Perhaps he has some Sheed in him and can’t play hard unless the game counts for something.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
for a moment
I thought you were commenting about Ariza…funny they shipped out Posey, to get a younger version who isn’t much better offensively, but is better defensively.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Ariza is much better than Posey at the same age.
Posey’s only skill even at the best point in his career was the spotup. Ariza is much more athletic and can also serve as a finisher on the break, something Posey could last do when he was in high school.
Ariza is also a much better defender than Posey’s ever been. Posey at best was a quality defender; Ariza is a very good one. Not quite stopper level but pretty close.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
a poor mans Ron Artest
and dubbed as such from day 1. Perfect fit for a contender, not so perfect as a first or second option
Hornets making a bit of news today. Trade Julian Wright for Marco Bellinelli
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Indiana for sure
They got two black dudes and only had to give up one white guy.
by FlyingOutlaw on Aug 11, 2010 1:12 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
lol
Elitism - It's lonely at the top. But it's comforting to look down upon everyone at the bottom.
by thankyouforblaze on Aug 11, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Who is better: Ariza or Matthews?
They are signed to comparable contracts.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 1:17 PM PDT reply actions
How do we not get Collison?
Surely we could have offered something better than Ariza and absorbing Posey’s contract. Collison is gonna be a player.
by stevecolterssocks on Aug 11, 2010 1:35 PM PDT reply actions
Only way we could get Collison is trading Batum
And many PDX fans wouldn’t even have Batum as part of a trade for CP3!!
What else do we have that NOLA would be interested in that we would actually want to part with? Only others are Roy, Oden and Aldridge. Do you think they’d give us Batum for anything less?
I disagree
they took Ariza for him and a bad contract.
To me that is just above a firesale price.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Aug 11, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I support this message.
In Bayless I trust.
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><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
We were not that high on him to begin with?
I liked him before the draft, but strictly as a solid backup. Last year has proven that, but not added that much on top of it. It remains to be seen if he can lead a team to the playoffs.
"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban
We not get Collison because he's 6' if he's wearing pumps.
Collison is too small. He’s going to get shot over his whole career.
Keep Portland Weird.
Ironically, Darren Collison's wingspan and standing reach are just 1/2" smaller than Jerryd Bayless.
Compared to Bayless, moreover, Collison is substantially quicker regarding lateral movement, is more of a threat at clogging the passing lanes and forcing turnovers, and isn’t overaggressive by committing lunatic fouls when playing on-ball defense.
I'm guessing you have NBA League Pass?
Or are these evaluations coming off the top of you head?
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
who *doesn't* have league pass?
Greatest invention of all time.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions
and yeah, AK's right.
DC was a pretty legit looking defender for a rookie.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Collison also played more minutes during his rookie season (2109)
than Bayless has played in 2 NBA seasons (1959)
and Darren is almost exactly 1 year older than Jerryd
So Rex has come catching up to do, which should come as no surprise
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
but Bayless has a 38 in max vert, compared to Collison's 33.5
and they had identical 3/4 court sprint times…and, although they had similar bench press (10 for Bayless; 9 for Collison) coming out of college, Bayless is clearly much stronger now.
Plus, Bayless plays a better all around game (proven beyond a shadow of a doubt by WS/48, of course)
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Aug 11, 2010 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Win Shares is a garbage stat for basketball — since it's built for baseball and got lost in ...
translation by Dean Oliver from Bill James — while straight line speed (i.e., 3/4 court sprint time) holds nowhere near the weight on defense as does the lane agility test when determining lateral quickness.
Heck, Patty Mills has nice straight line speed; however, he’s got run-of-the-mill lateral quickness and, of course, is a terrible defender.
On a side note, Tyreke Evans has abysmal lateral quickness and is considered to be a guy with good defensive ability. I, however, would argue that Evans is best suited to guard wings instead of opposing 1s — especially with his lengthy 6’11.25" wingspan — as well as should play the 3 on offense rather than handle the point.
I think its awesome you can look up stats
hazah for you!
You might want to know that the testing results that DX ran that day arnt reflective of the fact that Patty and Steph Curry carried lower leg injuries into testing.
Curry is far more agile than the 11.07 he did at the combine.
Which actually puts Pattys mid range result in agility and sprint times into perceptive.
FWIW Mills 2 weeks later ran a 10.24 and 2.97 at NOLAs testing
Patty might be ballz in a lot of blazer fans eyes, but you dont find many quicker.
If that's true, I credit Patty Mills for having the straight line speed of Nate Robinson ...
and the lateral quickness that makes a young Craig “Speedy” Claxton look like a snail.
Even so, though, Mills is an easy guy to shoot over, as well as somebody who I’ve seen have trouble stay in front of guys defensively. Thus, despite him being an alleged speed demon who’d put Speedy Gonzales to shame, I feel safe in saying that better options are out there other than him.
of course, and your right
I should be fair on you and let you know I worked at the Australian Institute of Sport, on an internship completing a sports science degree.
but all that aside surly even the most one eyed hater can see that the boy is flat out fast???
Mills while having a good vert for the average Aussie doesn’t have what a lot of other guys in his position in the NBA have, so you are probably right.
Yeah, I originally sold Patty Mills short on his amazing gift of speed. It makes ...
one wonder if Mills true calling may’ve been as a kick and punt return specialist in football — for his 5’11" stature wouldn’t be an issue, as is proven by guys such as the diminuitive 5’5" Trindon Holliday — yet, he grew up in Australia and, of course, American football doesn’t hold much appeal internationally.
you should see Australian Rules football
Patty is a perfect size for an onballer, Aaron and Alwyn Davey, Pattys first cousins are 2 of the best players in the game. Patty could have gone all the way in the AFL as well.
That being said, his calling is Basketball. Put it this way, if he can get out of Portland, get somewhere that runs the ball, we shall meet back here in five years time and you will see, he has the game to make it in the NBA
I bet my left nut
WS/48 is as good as any composite, single number stat
You can cast aspersions on the metric all you want – but WS -, like other composites such as KP2’s WARP – were calibrated against winning percentage.
Composite stats have inherent flaws – but that doesn’t invalidate correlation. WS has undergone manipulation to increase accuracy – with the primary difference from the original version is that it incorporates adjusted +/-. Relative to any isolated stat (which allows for selective cherry picking), composite stats are the quickest route to a valid discussion point.
Within the context of blog exchanges between posters – WS, WS/48, WARP, etc. are gold compared to focusing on one particular stat or another – with all the good advanced stats being integrated into the composites in the first place.
If you really want to challenge the composite numbers that ruin your argument – you have to be specific about how it negatively impacts the player in question. For instance, you can argue that WARP doesn’t fairly weight assists, or WS overvalues free throws, or whatever. However, these types of numbers are far and away better than “player x is better than player y because I say so”.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Aug 12, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
this indicated to me we won't get cp3 :(
Michael Jordan is the Nicolas Batum of America
"I was like, 'Wow, we get a run.'-Felix Hernandez
Ha
At least not in the near future. The L*kers had to pull off a miracle “trade” for Gasol to get Kobe to stay when he wasn’t happy. Ariza is not going to be the guy that convinces him to stay longterm. If they are 10 games below .500, we’ll hear more rumblings about CP3 wanting to leave. All this does is keep CP3 for a little bit. It buys the Hornets some time, but they still have to make huge upgrades if they want him there for a long time.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
Indiana wins this hands down. And they can still go after some pretty good PFs on the market, like Amundson.
"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban
Surpised no one has picked him up yet.
An energetic big off the bench could be good for NO especially with Monty’s proposed increased tempo.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Patty Mills?
Anyone else think NO might try to sign Mills?
It depends on what type of offense Monty plans on employing.
If Monty is sticking close to his Spurs roots or become a branch of McMillan, Mills will not be signed. Patty can’t play defense and his PG abilities are a liability in an offense that caters an offensive playmaking PG. If the Hornets want a Jannero Pargo part deux, I suppose Mills may be considered. I don’t think that’s likely.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Monty has said that he wants to increase the tempo in NO.
He’s said that he wants to move away from running the half-court offense that they were running before. I don’t think that they are going to be a SSOL team but they could potentially get a good piece in Mills. Monty could be the liaison to make that happen.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
As a third-string point guard, Patty Mills wouldn't kill New Orleans.
Yet, if Rafer Alston still wants to play in the NBA, he’d make the most sense as a backup there.
What an amazing trade for Indiana
they needed a PG bad and they get one of the better up-and-coming PGs in the league for an expiring contract
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
Everybody wins...
NJ – didn’t have a place for Lee any more and needed an experienced big
IN – betting that Collison will be able to be a starter and play the style they want
HO – had to shed $$ and are stocked up at the 3 with decent players
NO – Collison was not a great short minutes back-up to CP3 and they needed more talent up front
In order of biggest winners to biggest losers:
1) Indiana
2) New Jersey
3) New Orleans
4) Houston
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
Houston needed to cut costs, so I can't fault the team.
Daryl Morey, however, has still got some work ahead to get Leslie Alexander under the luxury tax; thus, a superfluous asset like Jordan Hill could be moved to cut further costs.
Another thing
New Jersey was the team that got Murphy’s big expiring contract. Looks like they are positioning themselves to be in the free agent market again next summer because they used most of their cap room this year with this uneven trade. Makes sense. They struck out this year. Might as well go for it again. Their owner seems to be thinking big. It would be awesome if they stole Melo away from the Knicks.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
New Orleans
They dumped a bad contract in Posey and were able to get a young talented wing in Ariza, great deal for them.
Runner Up: Indiana, With Collison they will have a really nice young core.
Poseys contract is only bad for what he brought for it. Granted Ariza is younger a bit better. Financially it's not a no nonsense deal especially when including Collison
Posey is owed $6,478,600 for 10-11 and $6,925,400 for 11-12
Ariza is owed $6,322,320 for 10-11 $6,790,640 for 11-12 $7,258,960 for 12-13 $7,727,280 (ETO) for 13-14
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
"Poseys contract is only bad for what he brought for it."
What do you think people mean when they say bad contract? It’s always a cost/benefit calculation – what did it cost you to get how much benefit.
Ariza gets you much more benefit for comparable per year cost, and is young enough to project to continue to bring much benefit. Posey is at a point where he hurts you when he’s on the court during non-garbage time, and he’s getting worse at an alarming rate.
In terms of cost/benefit, going from Ariza to Posey is a huge huge win.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
The big losers: New Jersey.
Christ, why even get involved in this trade unless they get back picks or cash. Troy Murphy is just good enough to help them maybe get enough wins so they get a middle to low lottery pick next year instead of a top 5 pick. Nice work, fellas.
And he will be an unrestricted free agent in 2011
"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban
Exactly.
One of the most important things that an expiring contract can do during the season is get you players that aren’t free agents. It’s more valuable during the season than capspace.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
say what?
If you have capspace, you can still trade for players. You might need to send a second round picks or some cash, just so it’s a trade and not a giveaway, but you absolutely can acquire players that aren’t free agents.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I rethought this and I was putting myself in a loop.
totally didn’t make any sense.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Best guess is they want to retrade it
to whatever team underachieves and decides they want cap space.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
They get rid of a player who played terrible for them and fill in their biggest need at PF with a productive expiring contract.
With Morrow and Williams, there was no need for Lee.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
When your realistic best case is around 20-25 wins
it’s more important to give your lottery pick playing time than to trade for a vet who might allow you to get to a 25-30 win season and a 10th pick instead of a 5th pick with a good shot at the top 3.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the Nets were victims of bad luck last year
I’m not saying they’re a fantastic team but I don’t think a best case is 20-25 wins. In some ways, with their new roster, I can see 20-25 wins as a worst case scenario.
With Morrow, Outlaw, and Murphy, you have three legit 3pt shooters. Then add their two best players in Harris and Lopez doing the penetration and inside duties and you have the makings of a great offensive team. Clearly they will be lacking on the defensive end, with Lopez being the only one that can play any decent defense, but rebounds should not be an issue for them. On top of that, they should have an increase in quality with the addition of a better coach.
by Nicky Glasses on Aug 11, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Not to mention they had coaching changes and ended the season with a coach who knew nothing about game planning.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
The Nets were by far the worst shooting team and, in turn, the worst offensive team last year.
They added shooters in Murphy, Outlaw, and Morrow. Drafted a young big in Favors. They still have great talent in Lopez and Harris. The east is topside heavy and I expect the 7th and 8th seeds to have losing records. With Avery Johnson preaching defense and with better shooting, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Nets were competing for a playoff spot.
In addition, Murphy’s contract is expiring. They keep enough cap space next year to sign a major free agent. A Carmelo Anthony is much better than a lottery pick. If they commit to losing, they have nothing to sell to potential free agents.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
You hit the nail on the head.
Developing Derrick Favors — even if it’s trial by fire — is a better long-term objective than tossing out the NBA’s absolute worst post defender, Troy Murphy, for one season of mediocre basketball.
I thought that too.
But Russian Mutant Mark Cuban seems to want to be in the playoffs ASAP, so they’ll probably trade him for assets.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Not Troy Murphy...
…Troy Murphy’s Expiring Contract.
You know TMEC. He’s Raef LaFrentz’ Expiring Contract’s 2nd cousin by marriage.
Keep Portland Weird.
RLEC = 0 minutes
Troy Murphy will likely get 1500+ minutes for the season. It’s not the same thing.
They were already way under the cap.
Trading cap space for an expiring contract is going backwards.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope, good trade for NJ
They can have 20 million in cap space next summer. Carmelo is from Brooklyn…
"Talk's cheap, we all know that. It's like I've always said - 'don't tell me about the labor pains, just show me the baby."
-Buddy Nix
by billsfan4life on Aug 11, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
They already *had* the cap space.
They didn’t trade big long term contracts for a big expiring. They used up their capspace in a lopsided trade, sending out 1.4 million and taking back 12 million. Capspace is better than expirings because you can trade instant relief, not relief at the end of a season.
by howlingfantods on Aug 11, 2010 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey Ben,
I see you’re writing about the Timbers now on PDXPipeline. Congratulations! Just don’t forget your first love :)
"Nicolas! You're the strongest boy in the world!"
Only in Blazerland would a trade not involving our team provoke such a huge response. Three hundred comments and counting! Man it’s great to be a Blazer fan. We have the best fans in basketball. I really believe that. Some good stuff in this thread.
"You know, when you are in the game, you hear 20,000 people behind you, you don't feel anything."
- Nicolas Batum on playing through his shoulder injury during the 2010 playoffs.
Sorry... gotta give Hornets the edge
Hornets give up a talented but small (small PGs get shot over by bigger PGs) PG for proven SF and dump Posey’s ugly salary
Hornets had to get better while dumping some salary. They had to do both. It’s harder to make deals under the gun. Got it done while holding up the phone & phone cord while movers put new office furniture in new offices.
Keep Portland Weird.
The main takeaway is his reasoning for why each team wanted to do this deal. He also reports it was originally a 5-team talk, with the Bobcats involved trying to land Calderon (would have included moving Dampier and T.J. Ford around).
"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban
That was a lot of teams and names to read,
to arrive at “meh”.
Rich Rolled
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Aug 11, 2010 3:41 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
The Nets didn't blow it that badly
They don’t have to start Favors or Jianlian now.
The Pacers got a whole lot better, but they still suck.
New Orleans seems like a henpecked husband who got rid of his favorite dog for the sake of his shrew wife, who will probably leave him anyway because she has a man on the side.
Wow, Houston is going to be really really awful.
This is all good for the Blazers. Andre Miller isn’t so terrible that we need to mortgage the farm for PG help. He’s one of the better PGs in the league. He is surely better than Derek Fisher, who won another NBA title last year. We just need to stay healthy, continue using our superior size and length, and play DEFENSE like the NBA champion L@kers do..
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
What are the chances we get Murphy?
The Nets have serious interest in Rudy and see him as the next Drazen Petrovic. We could package Rudy + Pryz + Pendy for Murphy and $$$ (too make the numbers work).
The Russian Billionare would love it because he gets a European Super Star for the folks back home + a vet back up Center.
We get a back up PF with a nice shot to help stretch defenses for Greg.
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Are you joking?
Murphy is a great guy off the bench for a playoff team. I would start him, but we wouldn’t have to with LMA. He would give us a real threat off the bench and he has always been a great rebounder.
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude can score and rebound
off the bench that is invaluable. As a back up PF he would e great. You cant win a championship if you fill your team with defenders who cant score.
Plus you have to look at how he can help other guys on our team by spreading the court.
Every team that has won a championship in the past 10 years has had a dynamic big man that can shoot the 3 ball: Detroit (Sheed), Miami (Walker), Boston (Scalabrine), LA (Odom), Spurs (Horry)
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions
He's fine, but in no way a priority for us.
I don’t think he’s worth Joel and Rudy, considering Joel is quite an asset to a number of teams who want a big man, or true cost cutting (from insurance).
Plus his porous defense is pretty much the opposite of what we’re trying to build a contender around. We have plenty of rebounding and scoring all around.
He doesn’t fill a need.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Dont forget he is an expiring contract
so we can deal him mid season if it doesn’t work out.
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
His 'opponent counterpart' numbers are pretty abominable.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09IND11.HTM
Plus a DRtg that’s been above 105 for nearly his entire career.
Defensive stats aren’t too advanced outside of Synergy play-by-play type stuff, but most everything we have says he’s bad (aside from rebounding).
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Wow, Houston is going to be really really awful.
I have to disagree. Brooks, Martin, Battier, Scola, Yao…pretty formidable offensively and defensively
I don't trust Yao's body anymore
If he goes down, they are the ’08 Kings.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
I feel that Houston and Indiana won.
For Houston, I think it was a very good deal. Courtney Lee is IMO a comparable player to Ariza. Houston saved a boatload of money and may not have gotten much or any worse.
For Indiana, I like Darren Collison more than Troy Murphy. They had to take on one extra year of the dead weight Posey, but they got the best player.
At first I thought this would make NO good enough for Chris Paul to stay. I can see them still being
a bad team and Paul asking for a trade. Indiana won the trade.
CP3 just screwed the Hornets for years to come
He will be gone in a couple seasons and now they don’t have his replacement.
NO = New Clips
by BigTimeBlazer on Aug 11, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
If I was a betting man, Kansas City and San Jose will get teams before Las Vegas.
I honestly think San Jose is next in line, for Larry Ellison won’t get outbid again if another opportunity presents itself.
Vegas wont build a stadium
the voters would never go for it. Otherwise they play in a casino.
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions
So the Hornets dropped Collison, and then traded Posey for similar player Trevor Ariza.
They both got their deals off of finals appearances alone.
They both like to just stand their and shoot threes.
They both like to play dirty.
They both play good defense sometimes.
Basically, they gave away Collison to get a younger Posey.
In Bayless I trust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
Indy just saved $4,129,613 for the year with this trade.
Indy definitely came out on top.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Well, there goes the Chris Paul pipe dream.
Once again, my eyes are set firmly on Andre Iguodala.
At any rate, though, Houston does well to cut costs on a failed experiment, Indiana nabs itself a much-needed upgrade at the 1 in Darren Collison, and New Orleans shows commitment to Paul by getting Trevor Ariza. Heck, the only loser here is the New Jersey Nets.
Do you have a good way to get Igudala?
by Oden Mad, Oden Smash! on Aug 11, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
he does, but (using Bugs Bunny voice)
“you’re not gonna like it”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I like most of his Iguodala posts really.
Iguodala is like best-case Batum.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
(minus the 3pt shooting)
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
don't know who won, don't care
but Portland lost. 0% chance of gettin CP3 now….
kObe iS thE aNtiChRiSt
by Brendan Holladay on Aug 11, 2010 7:06 PM PDT reply actions
rec
Sad but true I am afraid. Our GM has said we are not there yet so it’s disheartening to see inaction to me.
I think this is a common sentiment among those bearish on the current roster
CP3 wasn’t available by trade – so no pessimism is warranted there – and nobody else is worth chasing.
For all the PG’s that can be argued are an upgrade over Miller/Bayless – none of those are worth the cost to acquire.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Aug 11, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
totally agree
i never felt comfortable with the price tag on Paul or Parker. too much for guards that have been ‘less than durable’ the last few years…
kObe iS thE aNtiChRiSt
by Brendan Holladay on Aug 11, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
This seems to open up a bit of a hole in NJ for another shooter at the 2.
Hello, Rudy! or is it goodbye Rudy? Seriously, might NJ give up the 2012 GS first round pick for Rudy?
The Dude abides.
I'd offer Rudy Fernandez to the New Jersey Nets for that future conditional draft pick(s) it's owed from ...
the Golden State Warriors — which is a top-7 protected first-round pick in 2012, a top-7 protected first-round pick in 2013, and a top-6 protected first-round pick in 2014, but will become a 2014 second-round pick and a 2016 second-round pick if not conveyed by then — as well as salary filler with Quinton Ross. Such a trade would make the Fernandez to Drazen Petrovic parallel even more eerie, even though nobody wants to see it end up a full mirror image.
Suggestions
@Duane – i get what your saying about B.Roy, i love his game. He’s a great leader, but what i think these “dumb analysts” are saying is that he has a few more things to work on b4 he’s at the kobe,wade,bron,cp3 level. I want to see him take over a bit more. He’s so efficient, i think he should get 25-27 pts a game without ballhogging. To do that he needs to push more, not so much half court and he needs to work on his off ball to get open looks. A lot of the time i see him take the time to rest or wait for a kick out.. Thats another reason why we turn it over so much with 24 sec shot clock violations, cuz Roy isn’t open and nobody else can take over with double team or high pressure defense, besides Miller… Id also really like to see Batum handle the ball more and get 32 min a game. Work on his rebounding, and post game. I think he could be a 15pt-7rb-4ass-2stl-1.5blk a game guy, if not this season, the next.. Greg oden needs to come off the bench for 20-24 min a game, Camby is still very productive and we are paying good money for him, might as well play him while he is still in the league. Oden needs time to learn how to play good basketball while still having 100% control of his body. He plays reckless, i think he could be an @Duane – i get what your saying about B.Roy, i love his game. He’s a great leader, but what i think these “dumb analysts” are saying is that he has a few more things to work on b4 he’s at the kobe,wade,bron,cp3 level. I want to see him take over a bit more. He’s so efficient, i think he should get 25-27 pts a game without ballhogging. To do that he needs to push more, not so much half court and he needs to work on his off ball to get open looks. A lot of the time i see him take the time to rest or wait for a kick out.. Thats another reason why we turn it over so much with 24 sec shot clock violations, cuz Roy isn’t open and nobody else can take over with double team or high pressure defense, besides Miller… Id also really like to see Batum handle the ball more and get 32 min a game. Work on his rebounding, and post game. I think he could be a 15pt-7rb-4ass-2stl-1.5blk a game guy, if not this season, the next.. Greg oden needs to come off the bench for 20-24 min a game, Camby is still very productive and we are paying good money for him, might as well play him while he is still in the league. Oden needs time to learn how to play good basketball while still having 100% control of his body. He plays reckless, i think he could be an All-Star one day, but he won’t get there if he doesnt train harder, lean down, and play with more control and not try to destroy everything in his way. His Body is too athletic for his healths own good, and if he just toned it down out there he would still be a intimidating presence down low. Go Blazers!
by STROBES on Aug 11, 2010 10:55 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Had some issues with my cell, pardon the double ínfo.
by STROBES on Aug 11, 2010 10:59 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
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