Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Pg comparison between the suns and blazers...



Whats the problem

Star-divide

 

Andre Miller and Jerryd Bayless combined numbers against Phoenix. Dre’s numbers are listed first then Bayless and then followed with a combined average between our 2 PG’s.

 

FG% - 40.5/43.0 =  41.75

3PT% - 42.9/40.0 = 41.45

FT% - 77.5/79.0 = 78.3

RBS – 3.2/2.7 = 3.0

AST – 6.0/3.8 = 4.9

TO – 3.2/1.3 = 2.3

STL – 1.2/0.3 = 0.8

PPG – 15.7/13.5 = 14.6

 

Steve Nash and Goran Dragic combined numbers. Pattern follows above setup.

 

FG% - 43.6/36.2 = 39.9

3PT% - 47.0/47.0 = 47.0

FT% - 86.5/80.0 = 83.3

RBS – 2.2/1.2 = 1.7

AST – 9.8/2.0 = 5.9

TO – 4.3/1.5 = 2.9

STL – 0.2/0.0 = 0.1

PPG – 15.0/6.8 = 10.9

 

I just don't think that an upgrade is needed in the PG position at this point. The games were not lost at the point. They were lost by and for the whole of the team. Really, we lost the series due to Brandon Roy not being able to play to his ability.

 

If the Blazers fail to produce in the next few years, I will have to be thinking then that it was the management and organization that let the championships be won in another arena.

 

 

Comment 26 comments  |  4 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Mobile rec

I would like to develop a good replacement for Miller. Hopefully Jarryd continues to improve like he did last season… and the fact that he has shown up in both playoff series bodes well. Andre continues to be an iron man, but it’s risky to bank on his long term viability.

That said, I’m far more concerned with Rudy or whoever subs for Roy (we need someone who can play limited minutes and also competently be a starter for maybe 10 to 20 games per season). Last season we were asking for bangers at the 4, now we have three good options in Jeff, Dante and Camby — not in that order of course. This year hopefully NB and LB show chemistry at the 3. Obviously the overriding question is will Greg play a whole season. I’m betting yes, and that should get us past the first round.

by jiminut on Jul 7, 2010 1:31 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

the game was hugely dependent on PG play

phoenix was able to adjust to andre after the first game. we were never able to take them out of their offensive rhythm.

"There was a time when this blog was for intelligent BASKETBALL fans. It has unfortunately become O-Live 2…" ~Ilikeemall

"Did they really expect me to bow down to Jesus?!?" ~Sophia
"At first glance, I saw a fairly unremarkable penis." ~Sophia on Greg Oden

by Philthyanimal on Jul 7, 2010 2:31 AM PDT reply actions  

they were able adjust by putting grant hill on miller and we couldnt make them pay for it.

A healthy Roy would have been fine, but we need our wings to be more aggressive. And Batum really needs that post play he’s working on.

Portland could coast along with their superior talent and stay right with us. Now that Portland woke up, the hammer cometh down.

Bayless > Daffy Duck after 3 cans of rockstar

by Batumshakalaka on Jul 7, 2010 3:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I thought we played pretty decent defense given the terrible matchup problems the Nash-Stoudemire pick and roll caused us. However, for significant stretches of each game we lost they simply demolished us on the offensive glass, which kept us from making runs even when we were digging in and they were making shots.

by atomiccafe on Jul 7, 2010 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

for significant stretches of each game we lost they simply demolished us on the offensive glass

This^

What used to be a strength for Portland (rebounding) became a weakness without Oden/Przy and a healthy Camby (ankle) With these 3 big men healthy, the Blazers will crush opponents on the glass, and this is a traditional component to post season success

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jul 7, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

they shot at pretty high percentages

for much of the series.

"There was a time when this blog was for intelligent BASKETBALL fans. It has unfortunately become O-Live 2…" ~Ilikeemall

"Did they really expect me to bow down to Jesus?!?" ~Sophia
"At first glance, I saw a fairly unremarkable penis." ~Sophia on Greg Oden

by Philthyanimal on Jul 8, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

R.E.C

woot put that in your pipe and smoke it!!

The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Head Czar of Amerika <--- Mortimer said so so there!!!

by faith on Jul 7, 2010 6:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Andre Miller or Mike Miller?

You might want to recheck your numbers. Dre shot 20% from the arc this season instead of 42.9% Also, you are incorporating statistical bias into your averages when you simply combine two player averages when they both significantly different minutes (30min vs 17min).

by odenator69 on Jul 7, 2010 7:21 AM PDT reply actions  

it still doesn't quite work

averaging per36 numbers would work though.

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Jul 7, 2010 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, the "Kenny Vance/Dwight Jaynes P.O.V." makes me crazy.

Perceptions of Bayless are central to most observers opinions of the “need” for a PG upgrade. If you are optimistic that Bayless has a good chance to develop into a starting PG who fits well next to Roy, then it doesn’t make a lot of sense to focus on bringing in a PG, now. Trading for a quality starting PG, in their prime, is difficult and extraordinarily expensive. Why pay the price, if you can fill the need with one of your own developing players? On the other hand, if like KV and DJ, you think Bayless “will never be a PG,” then looking for a replacement for Miller becomes a big priority.

The geezers seem like the epicenter of much of the “Blazers must upgrade their PGs” thinking, that filters down to BE. Both guys are old school (although I am older than KV) and seem to be stuck on the notion of classic Stockton/Nash PGs. Neither seems to have fully caught on the the effects of the new handcheck rules that place a very large premium on PGs who can score, in general, and penetrate, in particular.

Both guys made up their minds about Bayless very early on, “He isn’t a real PG. He is an undersized shooting guard who doesn’t shoot very well.” That wasn’t a bad or unfair description of Bayless’ rookie season. He posted a PER of 8.3 and a TS% under .500, while putting up an AST% of 18.3 and an AST/TO of 1.8. These are pretty poor numbers. You had to squint pretty hard to see Bayless’ potential.

The problem with this POV is that it closed peoples eyes to the very significant improvement in Bayless’ game. Bayless PER improved more than any one’s on the roster in both absolute and percentage terms from 8.2 to 14.3. His TS% jumped to .534 which is better than Miller’s, and better than what Roy posted in his sophomore season. Bayless’ 3 pt shooting improved from .259 to .315 and improved again in the latter part of the season and the playoffs to 40% for the last two months of the season.

Some fans seem blinded to Bayless’ effectiveness as a scorer because they focus on his jump shot and the relatively high number of shots he has blocked on his way to the rim. These folks miss the fact that Bayless’ ability to get to the line 6.7 times per 36 minutes of PT, greatly increases his overall efficiency. If Bayless can continue to improve his shooting and combine that with his ability to get to the line, he has a chance to become an extremely efficient, quadruple threat scorer who can 1) score in the open court and on penetration; 2) get to the line, 3) create his own shot, and 4) hit a decent percentage as a spot up shooter. There are plenty of perimeter players who can do one or two of these things well. Guys who can do all four are very difficult to defend. The defensive attention needed to slow these guys down opens up a lot of easy opportunities for their teammates to score.

Many of Bayless’ critics will reluctantly admit that the kid is a pretty good scorer, but remain adamant in their perception that he will never be a decent distributor. I think it is fair to say that there is decent statistical and anecdotal evidence on both sides of this debate. Bayless did seem to struggle at times running the second unit late last season. Were those struggles evidence that he lacks “court vision” as his critics are so fond of saying? Or, was it just a reflection of the fact that the second unit as a group wasn’t up to the task? Howard struggled mightily trying to anchor the interior defense of the second unit. Both Martell and Rudy where mired in terrible shooting slumps and together shot less than 35% after the All-Star break. Was the lousy shooting their fault or Bayless’? I don’t think there are real clear cut answers to any of these questions.

What I do think was pretty clear is that Bayless played much better in the playoffs. Instead of subbing in the whole second unit, Nate started playing Bayless more with Miller and Roy and more with other members of the first unit. Bayless’ results were much better when used this way. His AST%, which had improved to 22.3 during the regular season, jumped up to to 27.9. His TO% which had dropped from 19.3 his rookie season to a respectable 13.8, dropped further to a very good 9.6. He ended up with an AST/TO of 3:1, which is in line with the performance of the top PGs in the league.

There are plenty of examples of young guys who develop as distributors over their first few seasons in the league. There are also plenty of examples of guys who never do. I think the best we can say about Bayless is that all of the key indicators are moving significantly in the right direction.

Given these facts, I think it makes sense to give Bayless another year, or at least until the trade deadline, to show what he can do. The cost of waiting is pretty low. The cost of trading for another PG is very high.

Of course, if New Orleans decides to have a fire sale on CP3, all bets are off……..
 
*All stats come from BasketballReference.com

by upper left corner on Jul 7, 2010 8:48 AM PDT reply actions   4 recs

REC

People of the “he’s just not a point guard, he’s just not.” camp drive me nuts. It’s like the “true Scotsman” fallacy.

Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash

by HurraKane212 on Jul 7, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

2nd Rec

Yeah I like Bayless as well. People keep saying that Roy can’t play with a ball controlling PG. He needs someone to bring the ball up, give it to him at the top of the key and let him create a play. All the PG needs to do is keep the other team honest by spreading the floor and attacking the rim to keep the pressure off Roy. That’s a role I think Bayless can grow into. My only real concern with JB is that he looks one-dimensional sometimes and is easy to plan for in games (ie. getting blocked a few times driving to the hoop during the PHX series).

by odenator69 on Jul 7, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

My only real concern with JB is that he looks one-dimensional sometimes and is easy to plan for in games (ie. getting blocked a few times driving to the hoop during the PHX series)

There’s no doubt that if JB learned to shoot a pull-up floater he’d be even more deadly

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jul 7, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

KV and DJ really should have no excuse

because if they look back 25 years they’ll see another young fella who came to Portland without any PG skills whatsoever and still developed into a pretty good sidekick for another dominant Blazer SG

  1. in your hearts, and I’m not talkin’ ’bout Bobby Gross

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jul 7, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

*html

1. should be “#30 in your hearts”

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jul 7, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Bayless did seem to struggle at times running the second unit late last season. Were those struggles evidence that he lacks "court vision" as his critics are so fond of saying? Or, was it just a reflection of the fact that the second unit as a group wasn’t up to the task?

Being paired with a disinterested Rudy in the backcourt couldn’t have been benificial for Bayless last spring, I want to Jerryd him in come off the bench and play the 1 with Roy at the 2 for at least half a season before reaching the conclusion that he can’t get it done

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jul 7, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

I completely agree that giving Bayless another year is the least we can do. Not that you had to convince me.

I’m curious though, how many of these stats do you have memorized? You’re quite practiced at citing them (which I applaud).

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Jul 7, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like Bayless

he seemed like the only one besides Roy and Miller that had a desire to win that series. The dude is fearless too and with his work ethic he is bound to get better.

by Escrote on Jul 7, 2010 10:21 AM PDT reply actions  

Not sure what the point is of

taking averages of averages, unless you weight them for minutes.

Bottom line is Blazers couldn’t stop the constant penetration, pick and rolls, etc. of their guards which resulted in a lot of open threes and Amare.

by BlazerDavid on Jul 7, 2010 10:25 AM PDT reply actions  

Agreed

Let alone, making a point by using six games against one team. Andre shot 20% for the year from 3pt!

The stats in the series may support the point you’re making and certainly a healthy Roy would have improved the Blazers’ chances, but our inability to shoot the ball from the perimeter and to defend the quicker PG’s had a huge impact in the series.

by ATeam on Jul 7, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Now do a shooting guard comparison

and you’ll discover the real reason why Portland lost the series

what should’ve been the Blazer’s strength became a weakness when Roy hurt his knee, Rudy couldn’t pull his head out and J-Rich and L-Barb outplayed them both

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jul 7, 2010 1:33 PM PDT reply actions  

complete truth

That, along with our inability to punish Nash on defense, was one of the most major factors.

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Jul 7, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah miller is Nice

i like steals, and ballhawking skills.that bald guy on the pacers summerleage team with the cut on his head was a real all up in your business kind of guy.

by Captain fruit on Jul 8, 2010 12:39 AM PDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

The ultimate coverage and analysis of the Portland Trail Blazers.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
A Junkless Proposition - Five-Two-Six-Two-Aught-onetwo.
Small
Consensus Mock Draft
Photo_3__small
JD 5/22
Bns_small
You're The GM. Whats your move?
Small
Hard to be a fan of a team that is so poorly managed.

Recent FanPosts

Small
My dream is the Blazers signing Jeremy Lin
Small
Would you do this trade? Lowry, Okafor, #4?
Small
Keep an Eye on Great Britain
Small
two options with $20 mill cap space, the #6 pick and some luck
Batum_small
Alternate 2012 Olympics Team
Small
Collective mock draft
Small
GM Poll: K Love or L Train
Small
Off season ideas

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recommended FanShots

Assistant Michael Malone interested in the Blazers
The LeBron James Conundrum: A Legacy In Question
Shooting percentages as they apply to certain areas of the court.  Note who one of the best shooters in the NBA from the wing is.  Check out the guy dominating under the hoop as well.  Pretty impressive for a 6'9'' guy.
Fernandez: Joel Freeland Faces July 10 Deadline For Contract Buyout
Church of Basketball: An Interview With Dave

Recent FanShots

Perry Jones III story
Jalen Rose on D'Antoni
Isiah Thomas hoping for return
Ferry in mix for vacant Portland GM job
Where's The GM?
Orlando Magic has decided to trade Dwight Howard
If the Sixers are eliminated by the Boston Celtics in Game 7, the general...
Interesting Quotation from Chad Ford RE: Morway and Rebuilding
Malone is a winner...
Lamarcus aldridge first nba game

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Editors

Kitten_small Dave

Headshotsmall_small Ben Golliver

Lead Moderators

Getfuzzy-satchel_small Timmay!

Bucky3_small Cablinasian

Authors

Plainlc_small Storyteller

Moderators

Lamb_small T Darkstar

Small douglast

Terryporter_small prezofdeath

Small usmcr3049

Lrg_magpie_small Corvid

Wallpaper_small geoffm