Role Players
by Aaron Sass on Jul 5, 2010 11:42 PM PDT
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PrintSo there's one thing that annoys me. I get on this site and I see that "The Blazers are talking with Roger Mason" and I see a question posed to Blazer fans if they'd like it if either Shannon Brown or Jordan Farmar singed with the Blazers. Also I've read numerous posts from fans hoping the Blazers bring in another player to come off the bench.
What Blazer fans should be talking about is bringing another star to this team. In my opinion, I'd trade everyone on the roster except for Brandon Roy and Greg Oden to get another top 10 player in the league. The only way I'd trade Oden is if the Blazers could get back a game changing big man. But I think you should try to hold on to Oden and if you can get Chris Paul then think about what he could do for Greg Oden. I mean, look what he did for Tyson Chandler.
I also heard something like... On draft night the Blazers could have traded Bayless, Miller, Batum, and Pryzbilla for Chris Paul... AND THEY DIDN'T!!!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!?!?! Is Bayless going to win you a championship? Hell no. Is Andre Miller? Absolutely not. Is Joel Pryzbilla? If he were healthy he could be a very good player to have in a title run but he isn't and he probably will never be what he was. The only guy in this package that could be huge in a title run is Nic Batum. But like all young players you can only speculate on what they could become. Yeah we've seen great things out of Nic but what if he never gets to the level we think he can? What if he gets nowhere close to that? I realize that the fans don't have control over who gets traded and who doesn't. But it seems like so many Portland fans are against trading Batum even for a player like Chris Paul. Plus if the Blazers would have pulled the trigger on that deal they probably wouldn't have traded Martell so they'd still have him and he'd be good enough at the 3 with a lineup like: PG. Chris Paul, SG. Brandon Roy, SF. Martell Webster, PF. LaMarcus Aldridge, C. Greg Oden.
I don't know what stars the Blazers could get at this point but I'd like to see them bring in another star to play with Brandon Roy. You're not gonna do it in free agency. No one will want to come to Portland if they could go to Chicago, Miami, New York, or LA (even if it's the Clippers).
In closing, I do think role players are important and your 6th man can be a pivotal piece in helping you win a title. Marcus Camby will probably be that guy next season but I'd like to see the Blazers bring in J.J. Redick. He would be good for the Blazers. He won't win you a title but he'll give you consistent outside shooting. Something the Blazers haven't had since Rudy's rookie year.
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I really doubt the Blazers turned down that deal for Paul— sounds like sports radio rumormongering to me. If they did though, yikes. I agree that the Blazers need to be thinking bigger than adding a Mason or a Brown/Farmar.
exactly
the New Orleans guys must have broken KP’s mind hold on them just in time to turn the deal down.
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
every scrap of reporting said new orleans backed out
but i like people who defend the roster we have. I sort of wanna see what RAMBO can do.
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
you...you like me?
blush
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Could not agree more with the underlying premise
I tend to think the aforementioned deal was turned down by NO though and not us. You have to give up some good players in order to get back a great one in most instances. I know there are some here that would prefer that we play the wait and see game, but I don’t think we can afford to. There are other young up and coming teams who are getting better, the Bulls or Heat have a realistic chance of getting a hell of a lot better this FA season, not to mention the Lakers always find a way to keep relevant. Roy and 1 other bonafide superstar with a cast of decent players around them is a real threat. Look at the Lakers starting 5, I am not hugely impressed with it other than Gasol and Kobe. Fisher, he plays within the triangle well but is not a great PG by any stretch. Bynum, he is up and down and is injured damn near as often as Oden. Aretest, not nearly as good as he has been in the past, but a pretty good player. On the bench you had a bunch of so so players with the exception of Odom who can be great and can be crap all in the same game. Give Roy a legitimate stud to play with and the future is ours.
i would even trade roy or greg if it meant bringing in an actual starting top 10 allstar
i think if you get paul he needs bigs to pass to
What stars would you like to see us trade for?
And which players would we send out that other teams would like, so they send us their star player?
I doubt we were the ones who turned down that Chris Paul deal; it’s only a rumour first of all, but the rumour says that the Hornettes changed their mind. That seems more plausible.
I think Oden’s health is the most important development for our team, but I also think we need more gooder players. When it comes down to WHO though, and who is available, it gets trickier.
Mortimer
#52
by Mortimer on Jul 6, 2010 12:02 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
If we do nothing then I agree with you vis a vie Oden
Oden is the key if we choose to not make a move, if he turns out to be Bill Russel then we go places, if he continues to be available to play only 1/3 of the time we are doomed for 1 and done absent a big move. Personally I think CP3 is the move we should continue to push for, hope that a combination of his wanting to win now and our persistence will pay off with them making a move.
We can make the second round even without Oden dominant -- with better playoff coaching
The first year we were raw. The second, we were injured all over. Next year, it will be on Nate.
I like Nate’s coaching, for the regular season, alright. He is a guy who works hard on getting players NBA-ready. But I seriously question his ability to react to changes and mix up schemes for a series. Coaching a series is a lot different than a regular season game.
The firing of the assistants was a message. Nate has to show something new this year, or he will face serious scrutiny from management. I hope he can grow his game, too.
In KP I trusted!
*clap clap clap-clap-clap*
But would you trade, say, Batum, Przybilla and salary matching filler for him? You know they’d ask for Batum.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Actually, I don't believe that the Philadelphia 76ers would ask for Nicolas Batum; instead, Rudy ...
Fernandez — no matter his regression last season — would fit what that ballclub is building toward, with Evan Turner as its centerpiece of the future.
What, Rudy, Przy, and Pendy/Dante as necessay for Andre Iguodala?
That would be a steal, talent-wise.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Given quasi-Bayless rookies we have now, that's still a steal.
Puts us in tax purgatory though.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Yeah we’ve seen great things out of Nic but what if he never gets to the level we think he can?
First of all, if we’re playing the “what if” game, what if the Blazers trade 5 players for CP3 and he gets hurt and is never the same player, again? Could never happen? Well it happened back in 1985-88 with Kiki Vandeweghe, who was acquired in a blockbuster trade, then hurt his back and wasn’t the same player, afterwards. There’s always a risk.
Secondly, I’m not concerned that Batum won’t reach the level that Blazers fans expect of him, because most of the folks here at BE don’t understand how good he really is, yet. He should blow past the average Blazer fan’s expectations fairly quickly. What I’m more concerned about is that he reaches the projections of NBA scouts re: his upside, which is substantial (multi-year all-star) Hopefully Batum stays healthy and remains a Blazer for 10 years, then we can all look back on the summer of 2010 and say “man, it’s sure a good thing that Portland didn’t include Frenchy in any desperation trades way back then, wasn’t it?”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don't think of it as desperation
I think it’s more akin to us having acquired a number of nice assets over the past few years and now is the time to turn some of these into something far better. Batum will not be Scottie Pippen redux as much as we hope for this. T Prince is a more likely aspiration (not a bad thing), just more realistic IMO. Given that IF we could turn him and some others into something like CP3 why would you not?
And what if Batum gets scurvy and is never the same again?
I don’t get how this scenario is a good example. Batum has had more injury problems than CP3 has thus far.
And Kiki is a horrible comparison for CP3. Were talkin’ a one dimensional scorer WHEN HEALTHY versus one of the best PGs ever in his prime. It’s quite a bit different.
And which scouts predict Batum will be a multiple time allstar? I believe in Batum a lot, but I haven’t ever read anything like that. CP3 is such a good player, it is unreasonable to think Batum will reach that level— though he will likely be a very good player.
Morty
#52
Regarding Mr. Ernest Maurice V. III, look at how Denver's defense improved upon his departure.
VANDEWEGHE ERA
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1981.html (22nd out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1982.html (23rd out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1983.html (20th out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1984.html (22nd out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
POST-VANDEWEGHE
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1985.html (15th out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1986.html (9th out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1987.html (15th out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1988.html (6th out of 23 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1989.html (8th out of 25 in defensive efficiency)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1990.html (7th out of 25 in defensive efficiency)
On a final note, Doug Moe was the head coach for the Nuggets during all those years.
Kiki was a bad trade
Dats fo sho’.
All the more reason it’s a bad comparison for a role-players-and-contracts-for-CP3 trade.
M—
#52
But it IS an example
I became an instant follower of Denver when we traded the team away there.
In KP I trusted!
Sure, it's a valid example of gutting the team for a "star"
But I think it was clear to most even then that Kiki wasn’t the sort of star who can lead a good team to contention, whereas Chris Paul is the best point guard in the game today and a great two-way player. He almost literally (not figuratively) does it all.
That’s why I think it’s a bad example… trading 1 player who IS part of the core of the future (Batum) plus a few maybes (Bayless) and older players/contracts (Dre and Joel) for the best PG in the NBA just isn’t the same.
Not that I think the trade is a sure thing, but if it was possible, it’s a steal of a deal.
The only reasons not to do it is if Batum will be a better player than CP3, will fit better, or CP3 is the wrong player for this team. I think it incredibly unlikely Batum is better than CP3 (it’d be almost impossible, I’d say), and while fit an be argued, it’s a tough argument to make when CP3 is such an unselfish playmaker who has gotten so much out of his so-so bigs in the past.
I just don’t think the Kiki trade is anything close to the rumoured CP3 trade.
Maybe the Shaq to Miami trade is a better example? Miami sent out very promising youngsters Lamar Odom and Caron Butler over to the Lakers for Shaq. It went okay!
M—
#52
I don't even know Calvin Natt
ergo, he can’t be better than Batum
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
by Magnum on Jul 6, 2010 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
not at the time of the trade, he wasn't
Lever was a rookie PG coming off a promising but hardly stellar season as a emergency starting PG for Jack Ramsay. It wasn’t until Fat had the opportunity to play for Doug Moe that he started accumulating triple doubles like he was Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson
and Calvin Natt was a nice banger who could score a little, but he didn’t have much luck against Worthy and the L*kers back in those days Portland had just been ousted in the first round of the playoffs by the Suns (sound familiar?) and the feeling was that they had gone as far as the Jim Paxson centered offense could take them, in the post season.
It’s easy to look back in hindsight and say the front office screwed up, but the fans back then weren’t much different than they are now, everyone was clamoring for change, and for that one big deal that would put the team back in the finals, again. Well, they got Bowie and Vandeweghe, and that trip back to the finals was still another 5 years away
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Okay, let's view Fat Lever circa the summer of 1984 v. Jerryd Bayless of today.
Even then, I’d take Lever over Bayless. Now, we must account for era — as Lever played during a time where long-range shooting wasn’t as highly valued as today — which makes a monumental difference. So, on the whole, Lever > Bayless.
Not only was it a bad trade, but it also forced the Trail Blazers into taking Sam "Poor Man's ...
Ralph Sampson" Bowie instead of Michael “Game Winner 1982 NCAA Championship” Jordan.
And yes, a three-man wing rotation of Jim Paxson at the 3, Jordan at the 2, and Clyde Drexler off the bench — although “The Glide” would’ve eventually usurped Paxson — would’ve even worked back in my glorious birth year of 1984.
While Wayne Cooper wasn’t a star by any means, he certainly was a more proven commodity — even back then — than a soft, scrawny high-post 7-footer like Bowie. Mychal Thompson held his own at the 4, too, even if he was just a primitive LMA.
And Kiki is a horrible comparison for CP3
You and AK think alike, and have fallen into the same logic trap. Did I say Kiki and CP3 are alike, in any significant way? No. I’m talking about the wisdom of trading 5 players for 1. I could just as easily compare the CP3 proposals to the Herschel Walker trade, where the team that received the star (my Vikings) fared worse afterward than the team that acquired all of the marginal players and draft choices (the Cowboys)
There is an allure to CP3 that is no different Kiki was to the 1984-85 Blazer brass (Inman and Ramsay, the same gents who drafted Bowie) and Paul has a similar appeal that Walker had re: the Viking’s front office. “If we can just get this one guy, all of our problems will be solved, he’s exactly what we need!” That’s the sale’s pitch, anyway. I’m just here to tell you that often times what seems to good to be true turns out to be a disappointment—and not always because the star player is injured right away. (Although that seems to be par for the course re: the Blazer’s franchise, as we’ve seen most recently since ’07 with Greg)
But go ahead, speculate away. Don’t let a little history lesson stand in the way of the dream backcourt of Chris and Brandon. In the meantime, I’ll be looking forward to seeing what Miller-Roy-Batum can do with Oden for a substantial stretch of games, next fall.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I think Chris Paul would be MUCH better for Oden than anyone else mentioned.
Kiki only had a game good for Kiki. I just don’t think that lesson applies here when you account for Kiki and CP3’s playing styles. Just because both could be 5 for 1 trades doesn’t make them equal. It just means they are both 5 for 1 trades, and one was clearly a mistake.
And it was a mistake because Kiki wasn’t worth a 5 for 1 trade. With the 5 we may be sending out, CP3 is clearly worth it because he’s a two-way great player. More than a “star” like Kiki— CP3 is flat out dominant.
I think implying that a trade for CP3 is similar to the trade for Kiki is insinuating that they are the same sort of mistake.
M—
#52
by Mortimer on Jul 6, 2010 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am of the opinion that Oden is the most important player on our roster
Even more important than Roy, when it comes down to it.
Anything that gets the most out of him, is okay by me.
I would trade Roy to get Paul (it isn’t a likely trade at all, but I would do it I think) because Paul is not only a better player, he gets the most out of his big men. He’s as good of a scorer and a much better playmaker (not that Roy is bad at that; it’s just that Paul is better).
So when I say CP3 would be great, I am not thinking of how great the backcourt of him and Roy would be. I am thinking of CP3 with our great big man, Greg Oden.
Morty
#52
I'd do Roy for Paul too
Maybe Rudy would stop sulking then.
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
I also understand if others wouldn't trade Roy for Paul
But I believe two dominant ballhandling perimeter players don’t usually go well together. Now, both Roy and CP3 are unselfish players, but what would likely happen is that Roy’s game gets hurt a bit to make room for the better Chris Paul, and that it isn’t like they would just combine together and be as good as they are separately.
I’d be totally fine with that though, since CP3 is a better player, in the same way I am totally fine with Oden getting most of LMA’s touches on offense, since he is a more efficient scorer and developing his post game is more important.
M—
#52
If Kiki V. is comparable to anyone nowadays, it's got to be Danny Granger.
If Chris Paul is comparable to anyone from back in the day, it’s Isiah Thomas.
Even then, though, Paul is statistically superior to Thomas in nearly every way.
And if we sold our nice role players and youngsters for Danny Granger
I would hate the trade. While Granger will likely always score more than Batum, I would rather have Batum for his defense and how he fits with our team. I think Batum plays a game more conducive to winning than Granger does.
So it ain’t like I’m dying for any star to trade 5 players for. Only one worth it.
—M
#52
unless there's a red flag somewhere or information we don't have
like the Hornets know Paul has terminal cancer, you make that trade 100 times out of a 100 regardless of any 5 to 1 maxim.
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
which scouts predict Batum will be a multiple time allstar? I believe in Batum a lot, but I haven’t ever read anything like that
Nobody who’s name I would remember or that you would recognize if I could. And I didn’t read their (usually confidential) reports, I heard them discussing Batum, in relation to the current Blazer roster and his future in PDX.
It should be enough to say that Batum is in high demand across the league precisely because the other teams’ scouts and GMs know he’s got tremendous upside. All the more reason not to include him in a deal, especially when the team has no other SF who’s ready to step in and start games, much less a future star at the 3 (I don’t buy the Babbitt hype, besides he won’t be ready to contribute for another year at the earliest)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don't wanna trade Batumsie
It’s only when we’re talking a great all-round player like CP3.
It’s an extremely short list of guys I’d be fine trading Batum for.
If the only source for “many scouts believe [x]” is you, I will take you at your word. But I think you use this unverifiable story to support your argument too often. Just because some faceless experts say something, doesn’t mean it is reason enough to trust it. We have no idea how good of a scout they are, what their track record is, etc.
And it’s clear why Batum is highly sought after— he is 21, a very good player already, and should keep improving. I like Batum a lot. He’s also super cheap. Hell, he’s even a cutie pie. It’s no mystery why teams would love to have Batum on their roster. I think we all can see that. It doesn’t mean every team and scout believes he will be a multiple time allstar. That’s a pretty big leap.
But because Batum seems to fit us so nicely, and he is so young and cheap, and should be an even better player in time, is why I’d only support moving Batum for someone like CP3, and very few others.
Mortimer
#52
This. This this this this.
Batum is incredibly valuable. Cp3 is just more valuable. That’s all there is to it. I’d say hardly anyone here at BE undervalues Batum like t4l seems to be accusing – in fact I think BE was the first to get on the Batum wagon when we started counting him with the untouchables.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
by austinpwnz on Jul 7, 2010 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That could happen.
You can argue that you can’t build championship, or championship contending team without taking risks. I think waiting to see if Batum turns into an all star is a much bigger risk than trading for Paul and Paul getting injured and never being the same again.
by Aaron Sass on Jul 6, 2010 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree
While none of us can predict the future, we can likely agree that it is much more likely that Batum won’t rise to the level of CP3 than CP3 will suffer some horrible injury and never be the same player he has been.
M—
#52
I would argue
That the risk of either Batum or CP3 suffering great injury is roughly the same, and not worth worrying about or considering if discussing whether to trade one for the other.
While trading so many players for 1 player can be risky, only Batum is someone we are convinced is part of our future. It isn’t as risky as the horrible Kiki trade was.
Morty
#52
It isn’t as risky as the horrible Kiki trade was.
Were you following the Blazers at the time of the deal? There was a bump of excitement from the front office and the fans that Kiki would provide a lift that could help the team finally get past the mighty L*kers. Natt and Cooper were nice players, but they weren’t getting it done against Jabbar and Worthy. Fat Lever was a rookie PG who had filled in admirably for Valentine when Darnell was hurt, but in Ramsay’s system Lever hadn’t shown nearly the triple-double upside that he would shortly be providing to the Nuggets in Doug Moe’s motion offense, alongside Alex English
The Vandeweghe-Drexler tandem was the highest-scoring pair of Blazers in team history, certainly the best pure scoring duo since Petrie-Wicks. (And they were a lot more friendly than Geoff and Sidney, too, especially to Paul Allen!) The Blazers went on to actually win a playoff series (just their second post season victory since 1978) after the deal, in 1985! Things were looking up—no one was calling the trade a disaster back then—even rookie Sam Bowie played in 76 games which made all of the concerns about his legs seem unjustified.
Once again, things didn’t work out as planned, and within a year Ramsay was fired as coach. After rolling 7s for a year on Kiki and Sam, the dice came up snake-eyes, and ever since that time the Vandeweghe deal has been a byword, a cautionary tale.
Except now it’s 2010 and the Blazers have acquired a roster full of young talent and the prevailing wisdom is that they just aren’t going to be good enough. Never mind that they haven’t played more than a few games all together when everyone was healthy (no Batum last fall, etc) The grass has got to be greener on the other side of the fence, right? The L*kers are invincible if we don’t have another big star to go along with Roy, right?
If history repeats itself, don’t say I didn’t warn y’all. I’m hoping that cooler heads will prevail and the players that KP has acquired will have the chance to grow organically (for 3-4 months, at least…)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
So then
Are you not saying that the Kiki trade is similar to what the rumours say the CP3 trade to be?
And that this is what you are warning us against?
To say you aren’t comparing the two players is intellectually dishonest. It means all that you are saying doesn’t apply. Even if everyone was happy about it back then, simply trading good role players for a guy who only scores is always a bad idea. No one who just scores will ever lead a team to a title.
Ever.
If CP3 isn’t the same player as Kiki, how is this example you give us valid? And if you think it is valid, HOW so is it the same sort of scenario whatsoever?
Mortimer
#52
Indeed, "intellectually dishonest" is the best way to describe this asinine argument.
Even in 1984, folks knew that Kiki V. was a defensively inept, one-dimensional offensive player at the 3 — which is why I use Danny Granger as a contemporary comparison — yet, it’s true that some people were behind that trade at the time.
Those people were flat-out wrong, though, including those working for the Portland Trail Blazers.
It’s just like Michael Jordan was a winner at UNC and Greg Oden was almost a winner at OSU, while Sam Bowie failed horribly as a high school phenom coming to UK and Kevin Durant didn’t meet expectations at UT.
Heck, some misguided folks would be behind acquiring Granger in 2010, too, but people like Mort and I — who know better than that — would rip that kind of transaction to shreds.
Chris Paul, however, is a different ball of wax. The kid is a legitimate top-five player in the game today. And, in any trade that doesn’t involve Greg Oden, I’d be behind nabbing Paul 100%.
Lastly, I also acknowledge that my ranting about the Kiki V. trade is hindsight — although it’s worse than that, since I wasn’t even born yet — however, it’s clearly apparent how the Canadian-American/German native was viewed back then.
Kevin Durant didn't meet expectations at UT
Kevin Durant was called by many “the greatest college freshman ever”. Ever!! I didn’t hear anybody say that about GO. Who “expected” KD to win a title in his freshman year? If winning a title is what it takes to meet expectations, isn’t it safe to say that Greg Oden didn’t meet expectations either? Or, because, GO’s team made it a couple rounds further in the tourney, it overshadows what KD accomplished over the course of the season. 28 and 14 people nuff said.
As far as the Kiki trade. I think what two4larue is saying is that the trade is similar in that the city (in large part) is expecting some sort of big trade to get past the first round. As if it’s the only way. The FO is looking to make some sort of big trade to get past the first round. As if it’s the only way. It seems as a whole we may be jumping gun, and growing a little impatient. That’s how the situation similar. It’s not so much Chris being similar to Kiki as it is the situation being similar. CP3 is a no brainer all day. I don’t think two4larue is arguing that. I think what he’s been saying this whole time, at least from what I can tell, the grass isn’t ALWAYS greener on the other side.
Greg Oden made it to the title game, while Kevin Durant was one-and-done in ...
the 2007 NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament. Oh, and with regards to Durant ultimately being a disappointment at UT, here’s the money quote that verifies it.
"I have a sour taste in my mouth from ending the season like this," Durant said. "I kind of regret not playing as hard as I could today."
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/ncaatourney07/columns/story?columnist=schlabach_mark&id=2803905
Indeed, Durant flamed out in the postseason at UT like a flat-out loser.
Also, the situation with Kiki V. back in 1984 is vastly different than the situation with Chris Paul today. They’re not comparable circumstances in any way, shape, or form, for Kiki was a selfish, one-dimensional 3 on offense who couldn’t play a lick of defense — which is why the overrated Danny Granger is a contemporary comparsion — while Paul is a top-five player in the game today.
So, if the Portland Trail Blazers obtain someone like Granger in a consolidation trade, then the Kiki V. comparison would be valid due to the stylistic similarities.
Also, that Kiki V. trade was completely foolish back in 1984. It was a short-sighted, myopic deal—even at that point in time! Yet, if Paul was acquired today, it’d be a savvy move — no matter if the presently overrated Nicolas Batum was included in a return package — with worthwhile long-term implications; ergo, it’s an entirely different set of circumstances than the Kiki V. trade.
That’s that, too.
Scratch that, Kevin Durant was really two-'n'-out in the 2007 NCAA Men's ...
Basketball Tournament. Durant still crapped the proverbial bed, though, as he couldn’t even make the Sweet 16 despite his supposed greatness.
Now, I’ll credit Durant for finally making strides in his game last season — with the main improvements being on weakside help defense and rotating properly on team defense — yet, he’s still relatively unathletic, has terrible handles, doesn’t defer to his teammates enough, et cetera. The kid is fatally flawed, pure and simple. In fact, the only guy similar to him stylistically to be the #1 guy on a title team was Rick Barry in 1975; that was a fluke, though.
Again
You continue to only focus on your point of view. The argument was never made that Kiki and CP3 are similar. Let me repeat, THE SITUATION SURROUNDING THE TEAM IS WHAT’S DRAWING THE COMPARISONS. How do you know the situation was vastly different? Are you old enough to remember what was being said about the team at that time. Anybody, can look at stats online, but like I said nobody is saying Kiki is similar to CP3.
As far as KD saying he didn’t play as hard as he could. The kid dropped 40+ in his last game. You call that a flat out loser. What have you accomplished? What do you expect him to say? Should he have thrown his teammates under the bus? Maybe he should have pointed out publicly that he wasn’t playing with a future lotto pick PG like GO.
I can't believe you just referred to KD as a "flat out loser"
I’m watching kid spend his offseason in Orlando with his team as an assistant summer league coach. When his team got knocked out the NCAA tourney he put all the blame on himself. Not his teammates, not the coach, himself.
Where’s GO? Club hopping, blowin dubs, and taking picture of his junk. That’s where GO is.
Greg Oden had a more successful college career than Kevin Durant.
That’s a fact.
Now, let’s see who has a more successful professional career in the long run. My money is still on Oden, although it hinges on his health more than anything.
For Durant, he needs to be surrounded by the right type of players to mask his glaring flaws — with his inability to defer to his teammates being the big one — yet, Sam Presti is admittedly moving in the right direction by adding a low-usage, defensive-minded big such as Cole Aldrich to the roster.
So, even though Durant could hypothetically win a title as the #1 guy if things fall in the right place and he gets a bit of luck, my guess is that his career will ultimately be a disappointment akin to George Gervin, Tracy McGrady, et al.
Okay, you're looking at this whole topic in a broad, overly simplistic ...
manner. If you want to get to the crux of the issue, then you must view it in specifics. Even back in 1984, Kiki V. had already shown himself to be an offensively selfish, defensively inept chucker at the 3. In 2010, that’s not the case with Chris Paul; he’s a top-five to top-ten player in the NBA.
Again, a consolidation trade for Danny Granger today would be directly comparable to a consolidation trade for Kiki V. back in the day; conversely, a consolidation trade for Paul today would NOT be directly comparable to a consolidation trade for Kiki V. back in the day.
Ergo, it’s two entirely different situations — no matter if the circumstances surrounding the team itself is maybe comparable — since the specifics regarding the players would be wholly dissimilar. Heck, that’s where the disconnect is here regarding this whole debate.
It sucks for you old-timers that those of whom who ran the Portland Trail Blazers in 1984 lacked the foresight to not trade for a one-dimensional chucker in Kiki V., which forced it into a corner — as center Wayne Cooper had been moved in the deal — by having to draft an oft-injured, face-up 5 in Sam Bowie, who’d never met expectations at UK in spite of being a high school phenom.
Even back in old 1984, Michael Jordan had already proven himself to be a winner — with his game-winning shot in the 1982 NCAA Men’s Basketball Tournament being his crowning achievement — while Kiki V. was a stiff in the pros and Bowie, who was then 22, was playing like crap in college his fith year out of high school due to his bum shins.
The issue with Kiki V. and Bowie wasn’t a matter of hindesight, but rather short-sighted, myopic management by those in the basketball operations department at the time. Yet, if the Blazers of today swing a trade for Paul, that won’t be the case; instead, it’d be a shrewd move with expected long-term benefits.
Scratch that, Sam Bowie was 23 by the time of the 1984 NBA Draft.
Man, I know that tall, lanky high-post bigs were all the rage back then — especially since Ralph Sampson had recently tore it up at Virginia as the supposed new-age Kareem Abdul-Jabbar — however, Bowie’s ghastly injury history and mediocre production at UK should’ve been a glaring red flag to even the worst GMs back then.
You have no idea how comical this is to me
First, I’m not old. Second, the guy who is already in discussion for MVP in his third year will probably be a disappointment? Not sure I understand the logic behind that. Greg Oden college career was better, and that’s a fact. Why? Because, you say so. KD doubled GO pts. avg and rebound avg. KD won the player of the year. Not to mention GO’s season was up and down to injuries, yet GO had a better college career cause he made it a little further in the tourney with a better team and a higher seed from playing in weaker conference, but If you say so.
The funniest part of all this. You call KD a flat out loser, then you bring up Bowie, and Jordan, yet thus far KD would be much closer to MJ and GO is on the same path as Sam Bowie. Just comical.
Kevin Durant couldn't hold Michael Jordan's jock strap.
by AK1984 on Jul 7, 2010 1:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Comparing Durant to Jordan and Oden to Bowie is just lazy
Each player is almost nothing like the player they are compared to, both stylistically, statistically, physically, or what have you.
It’s just lazy and silly.
It just makes everyone look bad— the players, the person suggesting they are similar, and then it makes people’s belly hurt and then we are all sad.
Mortimer
#52
Let's see
Both KD and MJ were passed over for sorry, brittle centers. MJ dominated the league in scoring for years. KD is on his way to doing the same. Bowie had a injury plagued career, or at least in the beginning. Greg Oden has played 82 of his first 246 games. Yeah I’d say they’re pretty similar. No point in arguing with you two though since there seems to be very little the two of you don’t already know.
Aside from scoring
There is little MJ and Durant have in common.
It’s not that Durant is bad, it’s that comparing him to Jordan is silly pants.
They don’t even SCORE the same way. Jordan was a slasher who struggled to shoot for years, and Durant is a pure shooter who came into the league with one of the best shots, and a master at getting to the line.
Jordan is also one of the best playmakers of his era, while Durant is a more-turnovers-than-assists type player. Not a playmaker, a scorer.
Even if Oden ends up having worse injury problems than Bowie, comparing Durant to Jordan is just lazy. I’m not calling YOU lazy, I’m calling the comparison lazy. Just looking at PPG and that he was passed over for a center is… lazy.
Lazy!
Just looking at it on such a superficial level, is what I am taking issue with. I’m not trying to be a know it all, but I am saying I know everything about everything because I am the smartest man alive.
Mortimer
#52
by Mortimer on Jul 7, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of course you are, Morty.
I thought it should be left unsaid, but I guess some haven’t seen the light.
;)
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
More similarities
KD is a gym rat. The same way MJ was Eats, breaths, sleeps, basketball. The kid is at summer league Orlando right now helping out with the young guys (some of them may actually be older than KD) When MJ came into the league he was a scorer too. It took him a little while but he figured just like KD will.
What you get from GO is all talk. Most of it BS. He charmed and conned his way to the number 1 pick and all the suckers in the city of Portland fell for it. Same people that were holding draft the stache parties the previous year.
There are clearly parallels between the Oden/Durant draft and the Bowie/Jordan draft. There are some key differences (Oden is a lot better than Bowie when he plays and Durant, while brilliant, is not close to Jordan), but because of the parallels, I have no problem with you referencing Bowie. Its inevitable. You completely lose me when you say Oden conned his way into the #1 pick though. That’s just ridiculous. The pick has thus far turned out to be disastrous, but that doesn’t mean you have to make stuff up.
Yeah, Greg Oden would've been the #1 pick ...
in 2006 out of high school — except the 19-year-old age limit had come into play that year — and, moreover, could’ve arguably been the #1 pick in 2005 if a guy could declare after just his junior year in high school.
If y’all recall, Oden won the Gatorade Prep Male Basketball Player of the Year Award in both 2005 and 2006. Even at only 17, Oden would’ve gone ahead of an established college player such as Andrew Bogut with the 1st pick in the 2005 NBA Draft.
C'mon man
All you heard about Oden pre draft was how engaging and charismatic he was. He’s so charming and funny. Please. Mike Conley Sr. had GO ready. He knew exactly what to say. He knew exactly how to handle the media. All he talked about was wanting to be great. Wanting to be one of the best centers to ever play. That’s all it was, all talk.
KD didn’t say much. Kept his head down and just wanted to play basketball. Not talk about being great, but actually putting the work in to be great. Not making this stuff up. GO is all talk. He’ll say whatever people want to hear. Listen to interviews on 95.5. Talking about possibly coming back for the playoffs cuz he knew people wanted to hear that. Only when the time came he wasn’t anywhere near ready. I don’t mind it cuz the team shouldn’t have played him anyway, but he could of atleast kept himself in shape, and if he couldn’t work out then he could of at least been watching what he ate.
do you expect him to say:
“I suck”
“don’t pick me”
“I’d rather be a dentist”
“I am going back to school”
Can you pinpoint anything specific
That was full of crap? What did he say that was a lie?
I am open to this new “Greg Oden is a con man” theory, I just want to know more of the talking points.
—M
#52
and
If he couldn’t watch what he ate, then he could of at least been with team. If his legs are too long for the bench, there are some pretty expensive suites he could sit in with plenty of leg room. If he couldn’t do that he could of at least followed the team on television for christ sake.
?
You know he was at most of the games reportedly, right?
I think you’re taking issue with non-basketball things that have gotten trumped up somehow from your perspective.
If we made a mistake drafting Oden, it’s OUR mistake. Oden didn’t trick anyone unless being an awesome college center is a trick people can pull.
He also did a good job tricking us while he was healthy this season.
It seems like you have something more personal against ol’ Odie and have imagined some sort of nefarious motive he had to get drafted #1 and then hurt.
M—
#52
reportedly
from what I heard he stuck around for short portions of games before leaving. I also heard from his own mouth on his own radio show that he was at his mom’s house and wasn’t even following a lot of the games.
As far as Oden being a great college center that’s your opinion. I never thought he was that good. He’s been getting by on height and athleticism, but very little basketball skills. See: foul troubles, injuries. While he was healthy this season. Are you referring to the handful of games where he actually looked decent? 21 games played 4 double doubles. 8pts, 4rbd, 6pf in 17 min. against the bobcats. Remember that. For every decent performance he’s had over the course of his 82 game career, there’s been games just like the one he had against the bobcats.
Please spare me any adjusted stats or PER numbers you might have. Everything this team does is based on efficiency. Slow pace, little creativity, low shot attempts. It’s not surprising to me that a number of our guys have high efficiency ratings.
I never considered that he had a poor game against the Bobcats
I was foolishly going by the majority of his games this season that were good.
Look, the thing with Oden isn’t how he played— he was great by any metric one can look at except personal vendetta stat. He appears to have done poorly in that category for you.
The thing with Oden is injuries, not whether he is a good player. Yes, I would point out his elite rebounding and shotblocking and how “efficient” he was on offense. He also had ginormous foul problems to make his on-court play less rosy, but he was playing extremely well despite an off game here or there.
I can see your standard for great college centers is high, so I won’t try to make you agree with me there. But SURELY you can do better than pointing out one game where he wasn’t that good.
At LEAST add in something none of us can prove or disprove… like questioning his heart and stuff like that.
M—
#52
That would be foolish
cuz out of 21 games he played last year, half of them were sub par. When’s the last time you’ve heard someone say, you know, that shaquille o’neal could be good if he didn’t foul out in the first 20min. That Tim Duncan has the potential to be great, if only he knew how to play. Staying out of foul trouble is part of the game. The ability to defend, block shots, and rebound without drawing quick fouls is what made the great bigs over the years so great. So, yeah, I guess I do have high expectations for people who are labeled “great centers”, or maybe I’m just tired of every single guy who happens to be 7 feet getting labeled as the next great this or that. If he were that good, he’d play 36 min.
I could be wrong, but I don’t think Oden’s charisma is why the Blazers took him. I think it was because of what they saw of him on the court, particularly in that championship game against Florida. Do you think Oden conned his way into his outstanding numbers at the combine too?
Look, if you were in favor of picking Durant all the time— kudos. A part of me wishes I’d been on that bandwagon also so I’d have “I told you so” rights, but let’s not rewrite history. Oden’s charisma was a story at the time, but not more than his freakish athleticism for a big man, or the fact that he’d been pegged as the next great big man for 2-3 years prior to the draft.
Hahahahahaha
Hahahahahaha.
That slick con artist Greg Oden! Damn them sweet talkin’ city folk! Tricked us poor country bumpkins from Portland with his big promises and fancy words!
You convinced me! I never noticed it before!
Morty
#52
by Mortimer on Jul 7, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Correction
Gotta make some adjustments before I get blasted on here. KD didn’t drop 40 in his final game, so I was wrong about that.
I, too, made a couple of slight errors earlier that I also corrected in ...
this thread — even though my minor mistake about Sam Bowie’s age enterting the NBA favored me — so it’s all good.
But yeah, Kevin Durant scored only 30 points in his final college game — which he did on an inefficient 11-24 shooting night from the field — that ended in defeat.
11-24
That’s almost 50% from the field. I’d say that’s pretty good for a perimeter player. As far as getting 24 shots There’s really nobody else to shoot it. Can’t all get easy dunks like sorry GO.
I'm more on your side down here
KD had a pretty weak team in college, and a coach known as pretty weak, and he did all he could to carry the team.
M—
#52
you and AK are both using 20/20 hindsight
and completely missing the point, as I should have anticipated. I’ve already said all that I’m going to say on this matter tonight. Enjoy your CP3 dreams, why do I even bother? You guys clearly have all the answers and should be running your own NBA franchises instead of reading anything I have to share
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
But wait
What IS the point?
I am not trying to poo-poo everything you are saying at all, and I believe we agree on most of these matters.
But the Kiki deal is not what the CP3 deal is and to compare them as the same sort of thing is probably incorrect. And if you don’t think they are the same thing— what are we debating here?
And of COURSE we are using 20/20 hindsight— as are you! Isn’t that why you say we shouldn’t trade 5 for 1?
I’m not sure what exactly you are arguing, is the problem.
Mortimer
#52
Is it simply the risk of losing Batum and him blossoming elsewhere?
Is it that you think we won’t find a decent replacement for him if we got CP3? We’d also have a hole at backup PG.
I don’t want to put words in your mouth, or guess as to what you are worried about. I just don’t understand what you are arguing.
Morty
#52
Okay, I'll lay it out in a simple matter.
A consolidation trade for Chris Paul today isn’t the same as a consolidation trade for Kiki V. back in the day — no matter foresight, hindsight, or any of that bullcrap — since Kiki V. circa 1984 is on a much lower tier than is Chris Paul of today.
It’s not a good comparison, pure and simple.
I'm sorry, for that was my amped up rambling there.
Yet, regardless of me ranting, my point still stands here.
Whenever I’m invested in a topic, I can occasionally pop my top.
That’s just me, though, and I don’t mean to upset anyone in the process.
Anyhow, I’m trying to figure out the disconnect here. It either has to do with how we individually value Nicolas Batum’s potential or, perhaps, how we individually value consolidation trades on the whole — although we need to view each such trade in its very own context — yet, it may be something else altogether that’s causing this hotly contested debate.
End of story!
Oddly enough, though, I don’t use “period” or “point blank,” but I might add the latter to my arsenal.
I like it when you say things like "oddly enough"
when nobody would have ever said “Gee, that AK sure is talking oddly.”
Now you are being deliberately obtuse
by Mortimer on May 3, 2010 4:39 PM PDT
More Timbo impression from me
The lesson of Kiki is NOT “don’t do 5 for 1 trades”, it’s “don’t sell the farm to get flawed players who will then be the focal point of your team”.
—mmmmm
#52
Basically, it's a matter of context.
I grasp the concept behind the adage “learn from history to prevent future mistakes,” but that’s no axiom. In fact, it’s a terrible thing to go too far in the other direction and be overly cautious. More importantly, though, is that we must use foresight today, while combining it with hindsight from yesterday. If we view players as assets in that context, it’s extremely easy to assess that comparing the misguided Kiki V. consolidation trade of ’84 to any kind of hypothetical Chris Paul consolidation trade of today is utter idiocy. Without question, those are two entirely different set of circumstances.
And if we're looking at a current Blazer player to include in a deal for a difference-maker
Look no further than LaMarcus Aldridge. He’s just entering his prime and he plays at a near-all-star level at a position where Portland actually has some depth. If you’re willing to flip Batum, then you should have no trouble dealing LMA, who has much less upside and a reasonable contract that should be attractive to many teams, considering the crazy money that’s being tossed around this month. The BYC issue is really no problem while there are so many teams with capspace who could help facilitate a trade, if the offer was substantial enough.
Oh, but LMA is part of the core and will be hard to replace, you say? Well, So is Batum, even more so. If LMA was dealt, the team has Camby who has been a starting PF for years, and a couple of 2nd year backups who the team thinks are ready to contribute. If Nic is traded, there’s a rookie SF who has never played in tougher competition than the WAC. But by all means, trade Nic and hand the positoin over to Babbitt, after all he was a lottery choice who must be better than Webster, already
I don’t think the team needs to make any major moves to acquire a top-10 player at this time. I even think that LMA should be kept around to team up with Oden, Camby and Przybilla in one of (if not) the most awesome front courts in the NBA. Nic and Greg are going to be stars in this league, if they can just stay healthy and/or out of trade proposals for a couple of years.
Be careful what you wish for, because acquiring “another star” will sometimes upset a team’s chemistry and lead to diminishing returns, as we learned back in the late ‘90s when Detlef Schrempf and Rod Strickland were shoehorned into an already-deep roster. That went well, didn’t it?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I would MUCH rather trade LMA before I trade Batum
But I doubt he is as valued as Batum is, both for his style of play and his contract. Batum is awesome and dirt cheap.
The late 90s shoehorning of a waaaay past their prime Detlef and Strickland was a mistake, but I don’t think it’s something we’re at risk of trying for. If we start talking about getting Shaq or Arenas or whoever, then I’ll be worried.
If we could move LMA for a piece that Batum could maybe get us, I would happily sign off on that trade looooong before I trade Batum.
M—
#52
Especially if a team is trying to save money, as we hear the Hornettes are trying to do
After the recent free agent signings, even if LMA was overpaid last year, the market has changed where his deal isn’t that bad for a young big who is a good player. A contract that is still a tradeable contract isn’t that bad.
But yeah, if we’re talking about trying to steal a great player away from a team who is mainly looking to save money, offering them a big long contract like LMA’s isn’t likely the ticket.
—M
#52
LMA can go, but so can Batum
The Paul deal I have heard of would include bringing over Okafor as well. He is overpriced, but does the thing so many here feel our PF must (board and bang). The Blazer team of the past which you refer to is exactly what I hope to avoid here now. That team had a ton of relatively evenly talented players so of course there was more friction about PT. My thought is to consolidate some of our younger less proven talent for a stud player like Paul. Who is going to argue on the team that they s/b starting above him and Roy. The stars are there, some good players and role players fill the rest and off to title city we go.
You wouldn't have heard of them!
It’s way above your experience and intellect, you see.
(Jus’ teasin’ T4L, kinda sorta)
I’ve been trying to pin down exactly what T4L is saying here through the last few CP3/Batum related posts, and one of these threads we’ll get him to actually finish the thought and not seemingly get angry/frustrated and leave.
If it’s “I just feel this way”, that is totally cool. I like that better than using unverifiable “experts” to pooh pooh others opinions. He has said that the “Batum will be multiple time allstar” stuff is from a conversation he overheard some scouts having with each other, so there won’t be a link or anything we can verify it with.
That, I can live with. I think it’s weak to question other’s ability to analyze and judge talent because it differs from what some scouts say, but I can understand it.
But not expounding on the ways that the Kiki trade is similar to the rumoured CP3 trade and then just saying we don’t get it, is funny to me. If we keep buggin’ him we’ll get him to crack though!
We must stay diligent to this task!
Morty
#52
Well, there's been a few ex-players who've lauded Nicolas Batum; thus, I'll give two4laure that.
Then again, I would take any player evaluation made by Michael Jordan with a grain of salt. That, of course, is partly ‘cause he’s got a horrible track record of it.
That aside, though, I think the whole disagreement about comparing a ill-begotten consolidation trade for Kiki V. back in 1984 to what’d be an outstanding consolidation trade for Chris Paul today — so long as Greg Oden stays in Portland — has to do with how we each view it.
For you and I, Mort, we look at the specifics of such consolidations trades; as a result, we conclude that what happened in 1984 with Kiki V. is dissimilar to the trade talks today surrounding Paul due to the distinct differences in their games.
Regarding two4larue, I think he’s looking at it from a mostly team standpoint — as the Portland Trail Blazers after the 1983-1984 season were above average with many young assets like the present-day ballclub — which is a broader, less in-depth way to view the two situations.
Then again, the Trail Blazers of today didn’t have the 2nd pick in the 2010 NBA Draft like the Trail Blazers of yesteryear had in the 1984 NBA Draft; thus, that muddies up the comparison somewhat.
Looking at it in that context, the Trail Blazers surely should’ve stood pat prior to the 1984 NBA Draft (i.e., not traded for Kiki V.), drafted the BPA (i.e., Michael Jordan) over the player with alleged upside at the most prominent position (i.e., Sam Bowie) — especially when another face-up frontline player wasn’t needed with Mychal Thompson already on the roster — and gone with a ten-man rotation of Wayne Cooper, Thompson, Jim Paxson, Jordan, Darnell Valentine, Audie Norris, Calvin Natt, Kenny Carr, Clyde Drexler, and Fat Lever.
Now, if you look at the current version of the Trail Blazers, it’s clear that a consolidation trade is in order. With that noted, it’s up to management to determine who fits the bill and, moreover, at what cost is acquiring that player worth it.
For me, getting a two-way swingman to pair with Brandon Roy and allow Nicolas Batum to thrive as a sixth man would be a nice find. I, of course, determine Andre Iguodala to be the most well-suited guy for that role, with everything from oft-injured Joel Przybilla’s expiring contract, to prospects like Rudy Fernandez and Jerryd Bayless, to the draft rights of the foreigners (i.e., Joel Freeland, Victor Claver, and Petteri Koponen), to Paul Allen’s money being on the table for such a move.
That, however, is the more realistic scenario, for the pipe dream being floated around lately is the much-ballyhooed Paul. With Paul, everyone is on the table except for Oden — while Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge wouldn’t be involved in such discussions for financial reasons — and that’s the starting point.
From there, any such trade with Paul landing in Portland would likely involve Joel Przybilla’s expiring contract, Andre Miller — who’d be a one-year fill-in at point guard, as his contract is non-guaranteed after this season — the all-important Frenchman Bautm, Rudy Fernandez, Jerryd Bayless, all three of the foreign players (i.e., Freeland, Claver, and Koponen), and $3,000,000 in cash considerations, while James Posey would also come back to the Trail Blazers.
That, in turn, would leave the Trail Blazers with the following roster.
C: Greg Oden (30 m.p.g.)
PF: LaMarcus Aldridge (36 m.p.g.)
SF: James Posey (24 m.p.g.)
SG: Brandon Roy (38 m.p.g.)
PG: Chris Paul (38 m.p.g.)
C/PF: Marcus Camby (30 m.p.g.)
SF: Luke Babbitt (24 m.p.g.)
SG/PG: Roger Mason, Jr. (20 m.p.g.) [Bi-Annual Exception]
C: Jeff Pendergraph (0 m.p.g.)
PF: Dante Cunningham (0 m.p.g.)
SG: Elliot Williams (0 m.p.g.)
PG: Armon Johnson (0 m.p.g.)
PG: Patty Mills (D-League)
Yeah, that’d be a damn fine team. I’d like to also add a third-string center with size and experience (e.g., Rasho Nesterovic) and a defensive-minded third-string small forward (e.g., Keith Bogans), especially if they can be had for one-year, minimum-level contracts.
And yes, that’s how you construct a roster.
Everybody, from fans to talking heads to former players, loves Batum
I don’t dispute that for a second.
I do question that there is widespread belief that he’ll be a regular fixture of the allstar team or come anywhere close to as effective a player as Chris Paul— however I don’t begrudge anyone feeling that way. What I take issue with, is acting like someone else is naive to not see that future for Batum.
Basically, I think it’s unreasonable to expect Batum to be as good as a player like Chris Paul, or to fit as well as Chris Paul would, which is basically what it amounts to when one objects to trading Batum for Chris Paul. Even if it’s just empty rosterbation and ultimately meaningless like most of what we do here, it is pretty unreasonable and unfair to expect Batum to reach that level of success.
Batum will likely be very successful in his own way, and I’ll be extremely happy to have him as a Blazer for the next decade right now. He’s one of my favorite players on the team, along with Oden and Roy. But, I’d trade him in a heartbeat for a dude like Chrissy Paul, and not feel that guilty about it. I understand being attached to a player, and that is a more reasonable reason to not wanna trade him than thinking he’ll grow to be more effective than Chris Paul.
For example—
If we’re talking about a guy like Luol Deng, who might be a better player than Batum right this very second, I wouldn’t be for that upgrade even though Batum could very well stall in his development (such as Deng stalled in his, after a great season as a 21 year old), because I’d rather take the shot at Batum being great than have a known above-average player like Deng.
The same line of thinking is why I wouldn’t trade the oft-injured Oden for someone who has shown the ability to stay on the floor and is a good player in their own right, such as Marc Gasol. I’d rather take the chance that Oden will be healthy, because when he is on the floor he is dominant, over having a guy we know won’t be much more than just “good”.
I think we need to shoot for that chance at greatness over surefire goodness, to have a chance at a title.
Just trying to explain my overall thought process about what sort of moves we should make, I guess.
Mortimer
#52
bahaha, rosterbation, what a great portmanteau
Anyway I agree completely. Batum is going to be very, very good, but not Chris Paul level. Oden, however, is guaranteed nothing, but he could be franchise-player level (and Batum almost certainly won’t). That’s the distinction.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I wish I knew who invented the term "rosterbation"
Because it’s a perfect word. I know it wasn’t me, sadly :-(
—M
#52
i picked it up from mccoveychronicles, and brought it to the junk
by cloudydays on Jul 8, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
you dont need links
just look at batum and you know he is going to be a multi time all star
Michael Jordan is the Nicolas Batum of America
marty>babbitt
by thomasikehara on Jul 7, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Where do you have scouts saying that his upside is multi-year all star?
I mean, that’s kind of implied when we look at the trade rumors he’s been in, but a big part of that is having really good value for his contract.
I would love to see any evidence that scouts have actually said that’s his potential.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Haha, okay, I see I was way behind on this conversation.
Anyway if it does come up somewhere on the interwubs I’d like to see it.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
The site is constantly talking about getting a star. There have been countless CP3 rumors and Lebron fantasies
I, myself, have posted quite a few Aldridge for Bosh trades.
Anyway, sure, it would be nice to get another star on the team. Who? And how do we get him? It sounds good to talk about landing another star, but it’s not simple.
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
Fair question
I still think the fastest way to a title is through the multiple star approach, but you raise a fair question. I still think this is the avenue we should pursue but the question is who? I think Paul is probably the most likely given their financial situation, their apathetic fanbase and the fact that he will not be happy if they can’t win, which I doubt that they will (perhaps 7th or 8th).
If Paul is the most likely candidate that says A LOT about how hard it is to land a star without giving up a star
A 1% chance would be generous.
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
How do teams like the Lakers pull it off?
I mean Gasol for a sack of marbles? I think there are always teams out there looking to either get younger, cheaper or maybe they really are in love with someone like Batum…
magic
and, well, it is the Grizzles. But that sort of trade doesn’t happen often
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
Agreed but
Since a steal like this can happen, why can’t a move that is really more balanced like the one that’s been floated? As one can see there are lot’s of people here even who don’t want to part with Batum for Paul so it’s not like we would be really screwing them in the deal IMO.
it's not balanced at all, actually
and I believe this is what’s known as a probability fallacy. And I love these pics, so I have to post it. No offense intended.
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
BTW I love Batum's upside
But if you can turn a potential star into an actual (and young one at that) you gotta do it.
Yep
According to the source, the Blazers got close to a deal with the Hornets last week that would’ve sent Andre Miller, Joel Przybilla, Nicolas Batum, Jerryd Bayless and the 22nd pick to New Orelans for Paul and Emeka Okafor before Hornets GM Jeff Bower pulled out of the deal claiming that their owner wasn’t ready to trade Paul.
-Chad Ford
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
That would be such an insane steal for us
Okafor, a very good young big, and Chris Paul, the best PG… insane.
I can’t believe it would be that simple.
M—
#52
It wasn't that simple. That trade doesn't come close to working salary-wise.
Paul + Okafor coming into PDX is almost $28.7M.
Okafor was not part of the original proposed deal. We would have to throw Camby ($10.6M) in to make that deal work with Okafor, or get a 3rd team into the deal to take Okafor.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 6, 2010 2:48 AM PDT up reply actions
You're right, of course!
As a side note, I love how Camby fits with this lineup (and how he could fit with Oden) but I’d be totally cool if he was added to the package to get CP3 if Okafor came back. Okafor ain’t the passer Camby is, and can’t shoot, but he’s a good rebounder/shotblocker and would be the best backup in the league AND a good starter when either Oden or LMA is hurt.
Again, it just seems like so little to give up to get a great talent in his prime like CP3, so I can’t see it happenin’. I sure wouldn’t argue against it though!
M—
#52
I agree.
I pleaded for re-signing Camby, and then predicted before anyone was talking about an extension that the Blazers would extend Camby and not let him get to free-agency. But to get CP3 … sorry Marcus, business is business.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 6, 2010 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Okafor is far from a very good young big.
If he gave two craps, maybe, but that guy is going through the motions.
by howlingfantods on Jul 6, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
He had a bad year in New Orleans
But I don’t think he was far from being a very good young big during his time in Charlotte. He had several good, solid seasons.
I don’t know what happened in New Orleans, but he wasn’t the same player. He isn’t hurt, it appears, so I don’t know what the problem is. But he’s still quite young and his past production is good— especially if he’d be a backup and emergency starter on our team.
Morty
#52
Zero effort.
I never thought he was the type, but he seriously showed less effort on the court than Derrick Coleman.
Guys like that are a cancer. Don’t let him anywhere near our team; if he’s included in a trade, much better to buy out than have him poisoning our team.
by howlingfantods on Jul 6, 2010 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I know that NOLA management was very unhappy with him
I just wonder what caused it, because, like you, I never thought he was that type.
Maybe some personal problem instigated it; who knows. Since he hadn’t shown signs of being that sort of player until the most recent season, I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt even if he never comes close to being a Blazer, just because people can get in lengthy funks for various reasons.
I don’t think he seems like a bad guy who doesn’t care, but I can’t say I really know him or have read every thing about him, and I obviously don’t know why he suddenly went from solid, hard working center for the Robertcats to a low-effort disappointing expensive contract for the Hornets.
It seems strange to me, and not like an ordinary team cancer.
Morty
#52
Yes, very strange.
But the problem is that it wasn’t something that happened through the course of the year, there was a visible lack of effort from the start.
I’m not going to claim that he’s a bad guy or anything. There’s a huge difference between lackadaisical and vicious. He’s just lackadaisical, and obviously didn’t care about either his performance or his team’s play.
The frustrating thing is that he’s still quite productive— he honestly is a very good player, and one year ago, I would’ve been saying the same thing about him that you are. But after watching him this past year, I wouldn’t go near him.
by howlingfantods on Jul 7, 2010 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions
One theory is, contract?
He got his big extension, and maybe he’s just sick of basketball. He wouldn’t be the first person to tank it after the big renewal and coast through the back half of his 20s.
by howlingfantods on Jul 7, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
i always liked him charlotte
double double machine
Michael Jordan is the Nicolas Batum of America
marty>babbitt
by thomasikehara on Jul 7, 2010 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Wonder if the Hornets would be game if we
-added Rudy
-replaced the 22nd pick with Babbitt
-give up 2011 and/or 2012 1st rounders
-throw some cash in there as well
Still kind of doubt it.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
You'd have to sign Babbitt first, and then add about another $2M in salary, if Okafor is included.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 6, 2010 2:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Pendy and Dante
whatever it takes
I mean that would hurt, The Inferno especially, but to make a cp3 deal work, sentimentality cannot be an issue.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Yeah, there's a reason that it's the Hornettes who aren't going to do this deal.
It can’t be understated how damn good Chris Paul Cares is. Not only statistically (putting up some of the best stats ever for a PG), but carrying an extremely weak roster to the playoffs until this season, where he was hurt for a lot of the year.
We all love guys like Batum and to a lesser extent Dante, and admire all that Joel did over the years, but I have a feeling we would freakin’ ADORE Chris Paul if he was in a Blazers jersey and playing how he has played his entire career. He is just so damn good, we’d say “Dante who?” and can still watch Batum be Batum on the Hornets and hope he hates it there so we can trade or sign for him after his rookie deal is up.
The joy of watching someone be so awesome, and is a very easy player to root for, and do it for your own team, would easily surpass the ickiness of trading young dudes we are attached to.
It ain’t like we’re talking about a good/decent but not great PG like Hinrich or Calderon or someone old and good like Jason Kidd. There is no downside to having Chris Paul on our team, like he is great on offense but sucks at defense or is annoying off the court or is too old to feasibly play with Oden and Roy for long. It would be, maybe, the least risky addition to the team I can think of short of adding someone like Lebron for free.
Adding a team player with no real flaws… any amount that it would be sad to see Batum go would easily be overshadowed by having a guy who does all Batum does as a glue/team player guy and is one of the best players in the league.
I consider Batum NEXT TO untouchable, but we can’t be scared to trade him when we’re talking about a player of Chris Paul Cares caliber.
Mortimer
#52
In all likelihood, a guy like Dante Cunningham is unlikely to be involved in any such trade ...
Again, though, this’d be my main offer on the table.
FROM PORTLAND & TO NEW ORLEANS
Joel Przybilla ($7,405,300) {15% Trade Kicker = $1,110,795 Per Year For One Season}
Andre Miller ($7,269,264)
Jerryd Bayless ($2,292,600)
Rudy Fernandez ($1,246,680)
Nicolas Batum ($1,196,760)
Jeff Pendergraph ($762,195)
Joel Freeland (Draft Rights)
Victor Claver (Draft Rights)
Petteri Koponen (Draft Rights)
$3,000,000 (Cash Considerations)
Outgoing Salaries: $20,172,799 X 125% + $100,000 = $25,315,998.75
Incoming Salaries: $24,436,449.85
FROM NEW ORLEANS & TO PORTLAND
Chris Paul ($14,940,153) {15% Trade Kicker = 2,347,496.85 Per Year For Two Seasons}
James Posey ($6,478,600) {10% Trade Kicker = $670,200 Per Year For Two Seasons}
Outgoing Salaries: $21,418,753 X 125% + $100,000 = $26,873,441
Incoming Salaries: $21,283,594
http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=5597389
Now, I’m not too sure if Pendergraph would need to be included in such a trade to match the salaries. That, by the way, is ‘cause Paul’s trade kicker might get nullified, since according to Larry Coon: “A trade bonus cannot cause a player’s salary to exceed the maximum salary, based on his years of service, during the year of the trade.”
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q85
If so, I’d prefer to hang onto Pendergraph as a cost-effective benchwarmer who can play spot minutes in a pinch. And, as noted above, the roster could be filled out with a backup combo guard on a two-year, BAE-level (e.g., Roger Mason, Jr.), as well as a third-string center (e.g., Rasho Nesterovic) and a defensive-minded third-string small forward (e.g., Ketih Bogans) on one-year, minimum-level contracts. I’d still like to sign Mike Miller with the MLE, too, but the organization seems sold on Luke Babbitt, even though I’m wary of the unproven kid and would gladly flip him — or bench him — if Miller would come to the Pacific Northwest.
Good point about Brackins. He fills the role Dante would.
In any case it is much easier to match Posey than Okafor.
Anyway I like the rest of your roster-building ideas. Too bad the CP3 trade isn’t gonna happen.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
It'd have to be James Posey coming back instead of Emeka Okafor, with Rudy Fernandez included ...
as part of the deal in lieu of the then 22nd pick — which is now Elliot Williams — which’d be fine by me.
Now, in that case, the New Orleans Hornets would have an undersized bench — as Fernandez would be the backup 3 behind Nicolas Batum, Jerryd Bayless would be the backup 2 behind Marcus Thornton, and Darren Collison would be the backup 1 behind Andre Miller. Of course, the Hornets could start both Collison and Miller — with Collison playing off the ball on offense, while Miller guards opposing 2s — which could work in theory.
Like I've been saying,
we need one more true star to be a title contender.
Whether that’s CP3 or not, I don’t know. I hope so, because it’s very rare that a player of his caliber and age is not absolutely untouchable. We should take advantage of this opportunity.
And for those of you who say we can’t give up Batum for Chris Paul. You’re insane. What is Batum’s upside? Tayshaun Prince? Chris Paul is arguably the best PG and a top 5 player in this league. Us Blazer fans are notorious for overvaluing our precious young talent and thinking every single guy is going to be the next MJ.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
I would be quite surprised of Batum isn't a bit better than Teyshaun Prince
I could even see Batum making an allstar team, based on our overall team performance. If things go well.
But his impact just isn’t the same impact a Chris Paul in his prime makes on an entire team. So I agree.
I think Oden will develop into a true star and (if not injured consistently) the best center in the NBA. The tools are all there; he just needs his body to stop betraying him like a jerk.
So, a trade for someone like CP3 isn’t the only thing that will make us a contender. I think we can get there without him. But it sure would be a helluva lot easier if we had him!
M—
#52
100% agree on Greg
you just don’t trade away a 22 year old center with Greg’s god given ability
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
oh man, I really want him to do well
it’d be nice to see Greg in beast mode
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
His great play this year only further cemented my belief in his potential and abilities
I would be loathe to trade Oden for CP3 for example, since I believe Best Center >>> Best PG. Though it is hard to argue because Oden is still potential and CP3 is CP3, but that’s how I feel.
Also, the one of the main points of getting CP3 (a PG who knows how to work with a big) is lost if ya trade the dang big he would be great for!
Oden had a terrific run before he got hurt. 2nd best center per minute. His fouls are worrisome, but I feel he’ll get better at that if he can only stop getting hurt. I just hope he can finally have a lengthy run of good health.
Mortimer
#52
batum is a way rad, cool player with a bunch of potential, that might make it to a couple all star games if everything works out. and when he retires, everybody looks back and talks about how much they loved him.
chris paul is one of the greatest players of all time.
this is some weird version of the ‘d will vs cp3’ argument
people that say
the team needs another star. Have you lost all hope that oden will ever be healthy and productive in this league?
Not at all
In fact, him and Roy are the only untouchables (barring some ridiculous trade offer) on the team.
I think you might be severely underestimating how difficult it is to win an NBA championship and the absurd amount of talent (among other things) that is needed.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
WHY are we NOT making a run at BOSH?
i say trade pryz, ODEN and rudy for bosh. bosh and la and camby would be pretty awsome.
nah, man, nah
Aldridge, Przybilla + filler, picks, cash for Bosh and filler in a sign and trade
The deal might hinge on Batum. I would have done that when we still had Webster to start at the 3. I don’t think I would do that now unless we had a guy lined up.
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
i am fairly certain the player has to ok a deal in a sign and trade
Michael Jordan is the Nicolas Batum of America
marty>babbitt
by thomasikehara on Jul 6, 2010 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah, they'd have to agree to sign
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
kaiser
"I don’t give a ZACH about no trade rumors. As long as somebody ‘CTC’ at the end of the day, I’m with them. For all you that don’t know what CTC means, that’s ‘Cut the Check. I just go out there and play. Again, somebody just ’CTC'." -Sheed
Can I get a pastrami sandwich on a kaiser soze roll?
That’d be amazing
"I don’t give a ZACH about no trade rumors. As long as somebody ‘CTC’ at the end of the day, I’m with them. For all you that don’t know what CTC means, that’s ‘Cut the Check. I just go out there and play. Again, somebody just ’CTC'." -Sheed
I just have to say this:
who annointed Chris Paul as the best PG ever? Sure, he’s good, but what has he done, really? I mean, the best point guard EVER ought to be able to single-handedly get ANY team out of the first round, let alone make the playoffs. And this is a guy with an all-star power forward and a not-shabby center on his team.
Like I said, CP3 is good, maybe even great. But he has an awful lot of history to overcome to even be mentioned in the top 5 point guards of all time, let alone best ever. Even without going into the 70s or earlier, he hasn’t done anything to move ahead of John Stockton, Magic Johnson, Steve Nash, hell, even guys like Gary Payton and Isaiah Thomas.
by superfly05 on Jul 6, 2010 2:06 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
reason means nothing
To people drawing inferences based on a small sample of numbers.
"I don’t give a ZACH about no trade rumors. As long as somebody ‘CTC’ at the end of the day, I’m with them. For all you that don’t know what CTC means, that’s ‘Cut the Check. I just go out there and play. Again, somebody just ’CTC'." -Sheed
how good an individual player is has nothing to do with his team's accomplishments
seriously – maybe he has less of a LEGACY or something, but his skill as a player is diminished not at all due to his crappy teammates. No player can singlehandedly do crap. Every good player needs a good team. Notice how Kobe’s only been deep in the playoffs when he had Shaq or Pau? Notice how MJ needed Pippen, Horace Grant/Rodman, etc?
A single great player does not a great team make.
Anyway, in the 2008 playoffs the Hornets took the Spurs to 7 games in the conference semifinals. The team went downhill because they signed a bunch of crappy old role players (Posey etc).
And while I agree that he’s not yet the equal of Stockton etc, that’s only due to their longevity. If CP3 continues at expected levels for the next 8+ years, he will be in the conversation with those guys (and I think that’s what most people are assuming). So given a reasonably probably future, he is in the conversation with those guys – and it’s not ridiculous to start thinking about that now.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
At this rate, Chris Paul is right on pace to be the third greatest point guard in NBA history behind ...
just Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. Paul will never pass Johnson, either, while it’ll be statistically difficult for him to top Robertson — especially considering how the modern-day “Big O” is really Dwyane Wade, who’s technically not a point guard — yet, that’s no big deal.
Also, it’s unknown how Paul will ultimately stack up against legends like John Stockton, Isiah Thomas, Walt Frazier, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, and Steve Nash — although I’m leaving Bob Cousy off this list due to the vast differences in eras — but he’ll certainly be in that discussion.
i too am sick of poeple using team accomplishments to judge individual players
like people saying kobe is better than lebron because he plays on a better team
Michael Jordan is the Nicolas Batum of America
marty>babbitt
by thomasikehara on Jul 7, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
yes thank you
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
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