all the talk of pg is confusing to me
by skott75 on Jul 5, 2010 1:38 PM PDT
Email
Print
I may be wrong, But looking back through history I Don't see a lot of teams that have won with dominant point guards. The more common mixture in title contenders seems to be dominant wings and bigs, and in most cases only serviceable pg's. Don't we have that already? miller is a top ten point guard in this league and Bayless is a serviceable( if not dynamic) backup. I think our mixture of combo guards is actually a necessity when we have a ball handling 2 like Roy. It seems to me that shooting and defense is our real need. Now, I would love to get Paul or tony parker, but I don't think those players put us over the top. I think A healthy oden and an improved Batum would take us much farther than Chris paul ever could. Am I Crazy? would you Trade Batum or Oden for CP3?
58 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Those teams that won with below average PGs
usually had 2 or 3 superstars.
We just need another superstar and PG looks to be the weakest going into the future.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
Agree about needing another superstar
but is Miller really a weak link? I suppose his shooting is suspect, but his post up game may be the best in the league among PG’s. I think batum is more of a weak link on the offensive end. His shooting is good, but he can not create or draw the defense ( hopefully this will improve next season) I guess I can see a defensively dominant PG makes sense, But I can’t think of any of those.
Miller is not a weak link today, he's one of our stronger players.
If he was 26, we wouldn’t be looking for another pg. But since we’re not going to win a championship next year, we need someone we can count on over the next few years. I don’t know if I’d call it our biggest need though either.
What history are you looking at?
Elite Point Guards
Bob Cousy: 6 titles
Magic Johnson: 5 titles
Tony Parker: 3 titles
Walt Frazier: 2 titles
Isaiah Thomas: 2 titles
Oscar Robertson: 1 title
Tiny Archibald: 1 title
Chauncy Billups: 1 title
Maurice Cheeks: 1 title
Rajon Rondo: 1 title
The championship teams without a great PG were usually coached by Phil Jackson. Just because he doesn’t need one doesn’t mean we don’t.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 5, 2010 2:09 PM PDT reply actions
I've always wondered why more teams don't
It seems like it’s an established winning philosophy.
I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
Banning "chat speak" is like banning apostrophes. There would be no "you're" if some punk kid in the 1700s hadn't been a rebel.
I don't think it's easy to teach or get players to buy into.
L*A has Tex Winters to teach it, and Phil to get everyone in line.
I mean, obviously most of their problem is KAAAAAAAAAAAAAHN, but I doubt the triangle is going to do well in Minny.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Oh, not to mention it requires a certain kind of players - a good passing big man especially.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Love was born for the triangle. book it end of story period.
"I don’t give a ZACH about no trade rumors. As long as somebody ‘CTC’ at the end of the day, I’m with them. For all you that don’t know what CTC means, that’s ‘Cut the Check. I just go out there and play. Again, somebody just ’CTC'." -Sheed
good, i'm not the only one that has the urge to scream KAAAAAHHHNNN!!
every time someone mentions Kahn.
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
by Tofu Anonymous on Jul 5, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, not at all
It’s a pretty common meme.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Phil didn't need one because he also had Jordan/Pippen, Kobe/Shaq, and Kobe/Gasol.
We don’t have anything close to that. A healthy Oden would be our only prayer to not need one of those pg’s above.
Yep
as much as we love Roy (and hate Kobe), I think we can admit he is no Kobe or Jordan. Not even close.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
by axel360 on Jul 5, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kobe and Jordan aren't in the same thought
Roy’s third season was about as productive as Kobe’s title winning seasons. If we want to win the championship, we need Roy to return to this form.
OTOH, Jordan had 7 seasons better than Kobe’s best season, and 12 better than Kobe’s first championship season. Roy can (and must) be as good as championship Kobe. Roy will never be anything close to Jordan.
Roy will never be anything close to Kobe, either.
Kobe’s offensive game is much more unstoppable. He can handle double and triple teams much easier than Roy, he’s more athletic, has a better inside and outside game, and his shot is a lot better. And that’s not even counting the other half of the game, defense, where he absolutely crushes Roy. Plus, Kobe has that killer instinct where all he cares about is winning. I haven’t seen that yet in Roy. I hate Kobe as much as anyone, but Roy’s game will never reach anything close to the same level as Kobe’s. 3rd team all league is as good as it will get for Roy so I hope no one in the front office is waiting for Roy to become Kobe for a championship.
thats funny
considering kobe believes roy has the second best offensive game in the league but its up to roy to fully utilize it.
by BBG on Jul 6, 2010 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions
http://www.slamonline.com/online/the-magazine/features/2010/07/the-killer/
by BBG on Jul 6, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for the read, didn't see where he said he had the "second best offensive game in the league," though
Kobe did say very nice things about it, but he didn’t rate it. Roy is very good on the offensive end, especially in a half court scheme tailored to his style, but he’s still a tier down from the top level of stars. And since defense is half the game, he’ll never be anywhere near Kobe or Wade.
(Case for decent PGs) To keep the conversation going...
This conversation hinges of how one defines “elite.” One could argue that since 1991 (last 20 championships), only two different elite PGs have won titles. Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups in my opinion were elite PGs at the time they won. I excluded Rando from the list because I didn’t consider him an elite PG at the time they won a few years ago.
To Nick VE’s point, Phil Jackson has his hand in a lot of championships during the last twenty years.
1991 Chicago Bulls
1992 Chicago Bulls
1993 Chicago Bulls
1994 Houston Rockets
1995 Houston Rockets
1996 Chicago Bulls
1997 Chicago Bulls
1998 Chicago Bulls
1999 San Antonio Spurs
2000 Los Angeles Lakers
2001 Los Angeles Lakers
2002 Los Angeles Lakers
2003 San Antonio Spurs
2004 Detroit Pistons
2005 San Antonio Spurs
2006 Miami Heat
2007 San Antonio Spurs
2008 Boston Celtics
2009 Los Angeles Lakers
2010 Los Angeles Lakers
You can win a title with an average or below average PG.
You can win a title with an average or below average SG.
You can win a title with an average or below average SF.
You can win a title with an average or below average PF.
You can win a title with an average or below average C.
If you are ultra-talented at the other positions.
We’re not that talented.
Look at some of the players on those teams.
Jordan, Pippen, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Olajuwon, KG/Pierce/Allen, Wade, D. Robinson
We don’t have a player of that caliber or a second star. The Pistons were really the exception to the rule. (the rule being stars win in the playoffs)
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
olajuwon couldn't win without drexler.
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
by Tofu Anonymous on Jul 5, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions
oh wow. i meant to say drexler couldn't win without olajuwon.
mah bad. a bit drexlexic there.
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
by Tofu Anonymous on Jul 5, 2010 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha - nice.
I have to agree with you…it seems very difficult to win without having two actual stars. All of those guys listed had another great player on their side, and it wasn’t like the Pistons were a bunch of scrubs, either.
by jigglyai on Jul 5, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
add all of those PG numbers up and it = 23 titles out of the last 50+ years
hardly convincing evidence. All it reveals is that if you’ve got a dominant PG then you’ve got a fair to middlin’ chance at winning it all
Now, add up all of the big men that led their teams to the top (starting with Russell, Cousy’s teammate) and I suspect you’ll see there have been more than 23 ’ships won with dominant centers during the same time period
Has the league really changed that much? Not if you look at the 2 teams what were in the finals. Neither the L*kers or the Celtics had a dominant center, but the team that had the most (healthy) size in game 7 snatched the victory away. Rondo was good, but he (as well as Pierce/Allen/KG) didn’t make enough of a difference when push came to shove
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Problem is
a dominant big man is much more difficult to acquire.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
I agree that a big man is more important.
Still, having a great PG helps immensely. (unless you run the triangle)
And yes, I think 23 titles out of the past 50 years is convincing evidence. There are FIVE positions on the court. The fact that a dominant PG contributed to HALF of all championships is pretty stunning. The argument that not “a lot of teams” have won with a dominant PG is ridiculous. Half of them did. That’s a lot.
The titles won by Phil are outliers because most teams don’t run an offense like that. It’s really a larger percentage. It should be 23 of 39 titles by non-Jackson teams had a dominate PG.
Again, yes I think having a big man or a playmaking SG is MORE important, but it’s still way easier to win a title with a great PG.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 5, 2010 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, most of those guys were not the best players on their respective teams.
Particularly those who were teammates of Russell and Duncan.
Since we’re looking at ‘dominant’ players as being maybe top-3 on their team, there’s probably a lot more ‘dominant’ centers. I mean, Russell, Shaq and Duncan are at what 19 championships right there? Then add in Kareem, Moses Malone, etc etc etc
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Boston/Cousy won their first title in '57
so officially, that’s 23 out of 53, or 43%. (Please note that Red and the Couz weren’t winning any rings for 6 years before that tall rookie from USF rolled into town)
I’ll take both a dominant center and an all-star-caliber PG, any time But a lot of the proposals that we’re reading for CP3 would strip the roster bare in other areas.
I think that Larry Miller and Paul Allen are more likely to make a Kiki Vandeweghe-like (regret-it-later) deal than to pull off a heist like the L*kers did with Gasol, or the Nuggets made when they acquired Billups. I’d rather wait until the deadline and let the new GM assess the roster, then maybe get a better deal for Paul or Parker (or even Steve Nash) than they could fetch, right now. Or, perhaps we’ll reach mid-season and realize the team is doing just fine and that no big deals are required?
That’s the nice thing about these PGs, they probably aren’t going anywhere until February, so there’s no real harm in waiting
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I agree with most of that.
Except this.
I’ll take both a dominant center and an all-star-caliber PG, any time But a lot of the proposals that we’re reading for CP3 would strip the roster bare in other areas.
We aren’t getting CP3 so it doesn’t even matter, but most of the “proposals” were centered around Batum, Joel, and Miller. That doesn’t strip the roster bare in any area. Anyone who would hesitate to include Batum in a Chris Paul deal is a crazy person and should probably be locked up. I don’t know if it’s safe for them to be lose in society with such a tenuous grasp on reality.
Overvaluing youngsters is something of an art in Portland, but that would take it to a whole new level.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 6, 2010 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's the deal folks
No 1 position is more important than any other position. What 48 out of the last 50 teams had were 2 players that were dominating compared to the other folks out there.
Basically it’s simple math. Each starter plays about 15% of the minutes the team plays and is in for about 75% of the game. If you have a couple players that are head and shoulders above the rest of the other players you will be able to play ahead for the time they are out on the court.
It doesn’t matter if your Guard, Wing or Big dominates. It just matters that they are able to dominate the other players out there. The formula for winning a championship is to get one of the top 3 players in the league on your team and back him up with one of the top 10 players in the league. Very few teams break that formula.
MO cheecks winning one title is not an arguement
and oscar winning one doesn’t help either, since all these guys are better than tony parker. individual talent doesn’t determine how many rings you get, it mostly has to do with what team your on, stockton, K johnson, payton, were all better than tony parker, but tony parker never played michael jordan in a finals
not to mention...
all of his teams either had Jordan or Kobe or even Kobe & Shaq. To me, those teams are more of the exception than the rule because they had some of the greatest players ever to play the game.
I think Portland needs to upgrade in any way possible and PG looks like a good spot to do that.
No, you don’t need an Elite PG if you have Jordan, but there’s no doubt that Portland needs to upgrade in any way possible. I love Miller, but we will definitely go further with CP3 or someone like Nash.
I Guess that it seems silly to me
to spend money on an elite point when you could get an elite 2-3 combo who can handle the ball and be more versatile. Most points are limited by their size to only one position, and are only effective with the ball in their hand where as elite wing players can play on or off the ball and be moved around to gain the biggest advantage.
I agree.
I think it’s probably better to have a ball handling shooting guard. The only disagreement I have is with:
I Don’t see a lot of teams that have won with dominant point guards.
That’s not true unless you ignore 20+ teams. The majority of championships have been won with at least a borderline all-star pg. I think Andre Miller is good enough, just maybe not young enough.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 5, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not saying
a dominant PG will keep you from winning, I’m just saying you don’t need one. Most of those teams had dominant Big men also, or where just stacked. If yr stacked you have a chance to win. I guess My main point was that the blazers do not need CP3 to win, They need a dominant 2-3 combo ( Hopefully Batum can be that ). There for I would not consider trading Batum for CP3, but would consider trading him for a More dominant 3( Gerald Wallace, LBJ, Paul Pierce, Josh Smith ect)
I know we're not supposed to say anything bad about Nic on here
but I don’t see him being a superstar type player. More of a really good glue guy.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
I don't think Batum will ever become dominant.
I could see him peaking about where Prince was, maybe a little higher or lower depending on health.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 5, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know it's almost blasphemy but
I have to agree with you 100%. I like him a lot, and think he can be a very good player, but some around are slotting him to be the next Pippen, I think the Prince analogy is far more realistic. Not a bad thing to be, but just not a top 50 all time type of player.
Elite 2 guards have the benefit
Of being able to shoot over 1s and drive around 3s when its time for a crunch shot/play. Handy.
by Sound_Automatic on Jul 5, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Seems to me.....
we’ve been talking about upgrading shooting and defense for 5yrs now. Maybe, a new coach is in order. Also, I’m not a big fan of the idea that you have to have a dominant big. What you have you to do is win the rebound battle. If you’ve got a dominant big, fine, but any good rebounder will do. Dennis Rodman is one example, Perkins, Wallace etc.
What you have you to do is win the rebound battle. If you’ve got a dominant big, fine, but any good rebounder will do
This is true. But if you’ve got a 7-footer who can rebound well at both ends and affect interior shots and help shut down penetration, you’ll take that, right? Defense and rebounding wins, and nothing improves a team’s defense more than having an aircraft carrier in the middle of the lane
Nothing
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
unless it's THREE guys who can all block shots, that is
I like having more of a good thing
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yeah, but neither of them are 22.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Greg is a superior offensive rebounder to Joel or Marcus
but I don’t see why this has to be an either/or discussion. Portland has all 3 on the roster, let’s keep it that way. And if LMA has to be dealt to fill a lineup need elsewhere? Oh well…PFs are something that the Blazers always seem to be able to find and develop, one-dimensional PFs, that is
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don't want to turn this into a big thing
Just wondering. Why are so many quick to dismiss LMA while GO continues to get the benefit of the doubt. I don’t see LMA as one dimensional. Just about everybody on the team settles for jumpers it’s the way Coach’s teams have always been.
What are LMA's other dimensions?
He can run, yes. He’ll get ahead of the defense and finish at the basket from time to time. But is running fast a skill that teams look for in their PF? Does getting ahead of the defense project well towards playoff success? He has quick feet to defend smaller players in space? Again, is that what you really want your PF to be doing, or is it a product of Nate’s defensive system that leaves him out on an island because of infernal switches, far too often?
I can live with LMA playing alongside Oden, because he can spread the floor with his cotton-candy jumper. But, if there’s a deal to be made for an elite PG, I’m holding onto Oden and Batum and dangling LMA every time, because he’s plateaued as a Blazer and they both have tremendous upside and are already strong defenders at their positions—at age 22
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
we have arguably 3 of the top 5 rebounders in terms of efficiency
actually, i don’t even think it’s arguable. it’s true.
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
by Tofu Anonymous on Jul 5, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=reboundRate&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dreboundRate
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
or, alternately
ignore Joey Dorsey of course.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I don't know what NBA you have been watching but just about every team in the playoffs and the conference finals either have a legit PG or a superstar. The Lakers can get by with Fisher because of Kobe.
Andre Miller is not a top 10 PG in the NBA. I don’t even think he is in the top 10 in the western conference. Sure he can get 13ppg and about 6-7 assist per game but he kills you on defense because he is slow and he kills you on offense because he needs the ball in his hands at all times to be successful and he can’t shoot to save his life.
If Portland does not improve the PG situation they will be bounced out of the playoffs again in the 1st round. Nate knew this when they signed Miller last year and the Blazers had to spend their money on someone with the failed attempts at Hedo and Millsapp.
Denver was in the same shape as Portland before they Billups. The Nuggets had a good team winning 50 games a year but still getting bounced out way to early in the playoffs….they get Mr.Big Shot and hello conference finals.
Chris Paul can be had either this summer or by the trading deadline. CP3 wants the Hornets to add someone to play with them but the only way they can add anyone is by getting rid of Okafor and no one will take him is unless Paul is with him.
Kenneth Lewis Moore
If this was true.
Chris Paul can be had either this summer or by the trading deadline.
We still wouldn’t be the ones to get him.
"I don’t give a ZACH about no trade rumors. As long as somebody ‘CTC’ at the end of the day, I’m with them. For all you that don’t know what CTC means, that’s ‘Cut the Check. I just go out there and play. Again, somebody just ’CTC'." -Sheed
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Blazer's Edge
Related FanShots on Blazer's Edge
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recommended FanShots
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Behind the Box Score, where the Boston Celtics are moving on to the conference finals
- NBA Playoffs Fan Fiction: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- The Indiana Pacers? Gone till November
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
