How important is "fit" at point guard?
The conventional wisdom seems to be that the Blazers need a starting point guard who is a better "fit" alongside Brandon Roy. "Fit" is generally short hand for "a guy who shoots better." I find this whole line of reasoning annoying, not because it isn't true in some hypothetical sense, but because it leads fans to undervalue the things Andre Miller does well and to covet players who are inferior to Miller.
Consider this: Basketballvalue.com keeps track of the adjusted plus/minus of every 5 man lineup in the NBA. In other words, these are not just raw plus/minus numbers, but numbers adjusted to reflect the quality of the opposing players as well. It allows for a number of interesting comparisons. For instance, among the 11 Blazer lineups who played more than 50 minutes together last year, the lineup with the best adjusted plus/minus was this one:
Miller-Roy-Webster-Aldridge-Przybilla (Adj. +/- 17.67; Off. rat. 113.99, Def. rat. 93.71)
The worst of those 11 lineups was this one:
Blake-Roy-Webster-Aldridge-Przybilla (Adj. +/- -17.91; Off. rat. 95.14, Def. rat. 105.98)
As you'll notice, the only difference between these lineups is the person playing point guard. Yet despite the supposedly better fit Blake provides, the lineup with Miller was WAY better.
I realize that this one comparison isn't definitive proof that the Blazers are better off with Miller at point guard than, say, Mo Williams. But I think it at least provides grounds for caution. Basketball is indeed a game of chemistry and the way players fit together matters, but you don't want to let such considerations blind you to other factors, such as the overall talent of the players in question. Miller may not be the perfect fit alongside Roy, but he is a very good player, and he makes up for his lack of outside shooting by being really good at other things, such as passing, rebounding, and drawing fouls. If we replace him with a shooter, there's no guarantee that the tradeoff will work out in our favor.
If someone like Chris Paul suddenly becomes available for a reasonable price (which I find unlikely), I'm all for making that trade. But it is not at all clear to me that a lot of the other names that are often bandied about (Devon Harris or Mo Williams, for example) offer an upgrade over what we have in Miller.
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I, for one, believe in Bayless
I can understand the Portland love affair with Batum, I love the guy. What’s more difficult for me to understand is the inclusion of Bayless in near every trade post without even a discussion of what he brings to this team, which is a lot for the price, and soon to be more IMO.
If he was able to average his playoff output, though maybe a 35-36% 3pt shooter rather than 40%, who wouldn’t be happy? By the way, time adjusted, he destroys Mo Williams in playoff output. The guy is only 21 years old, and averaged fewer than 18mpg during the regular season, give him a break. For me, were he to have been given a starting position on a bad team right off the bat, which is not difficult to picture given his performance in his first summer league, he’d likely be a near all star caliber scoring pg right now.
He is a hard worker, and dedicated to improving his game. Both his 3 point shooting and mid range game improved greatly from his rookie year, and will likely continue to improve. Both he and Batum have shown flashes of greatness, but also been inconsistant. As he has more playing time to improve his defensive game I think we will see great improvement both in his individual and team defense. He has the size, strength, speed, and quickness to be a very good pg defender.
In conclusion
Keep Miller, develop Jerryd.
by JudgeDridge on Jul 30, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
For clarity, you are saying you believe in Bayless as a PG. Correct?
I agree. Or at least I agree enough to give him a real, extended, not pull him out when he makes a mistake, chance to succeed at PG. I, however, don’t believe in Bayless as a 2 and think the WM signing speaks volumes about what the team expects of JB. Succeed at PG or play for another team.
by 52therim on Jul 30, 2010 11:37 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
preaching to the choir
I agree with you. I still believe Bayless can be a starting PG. I wouldn’t trade him unless it was part of a package for a Chris Paul or someone of that caliber.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
Yes, this
Imagine if Bayless had been given the opportunity that Batum was – I believe he would have proven whether he could be a starting PG if he had already been put in the position. I like a three guard line up of Roy-Miller-Bayless and I think it compares favorably to Drexler-Porter-Ainge, but with less 3-pt shooting.
OTOH – I think Deron Williams or CP3 would be an upgrade for any team. So, if available, any GM should make an attempt to get them as long as they don’t have to gut their team of all other talent.
"What we have here, is a failure to communicate."
Jeryyd is better than Roy
well at least if you only compare the production of the following units which were the 2nd and 3rd most used units last season:
Miller, Bayless, Webster, Lma and Howard ( +/- of 9.33) > Miller, Roy, Webster, Lma, and Howard ( +/- of -4.63)
It just goes to show you that Jeryyd is an all-star in the making.
Good question, but I'm not persuaded with the evidence you present
Blake was pretty bad last year. In 2008-2009, there were several line-ups with Blake as the starting point guard better than the one you posted from 2009-2010: http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2008-2009&sortnumber=17&sortorder=DESC&team=POR.
Doesn't the "fit" question have a lot to do with the offensive scheme and BRoy ability to learn to play off the ball?
I sure think it does. It seems like a team running a lot of Iso plays and pick n roll/pop really would benefits from floor spacing and perimeter shooting, but court vision and precision passing is still important but less critical from your PG. While a motion offense depends on court vision and passing, placing somewhat less emphasis on perimeter shooting and floor spacing. It seems clear that Nate isn’t changing his offensive philosophy so “fit” will matter. Miller is just good enough at what he does that he overcomes a lot of the “fit” concerns. As we look for a younger PG, it would be crazy to not consider the offense we run.
BRoy has said he is working this offseason at playing off the ball more. That would add a lot to the team as currently constituted. I have confidence Roy can develop that part of his game. If I were a coach, I would make it clear to my PG to be finding Roy off the ball or his floor time will be affected.
by 52therim on Jul 30, 2010 12:29 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Totally agree about offensive scheme
A point guard that can play SG (Bayless) is what fits Portland’s offense best. Roy ends up with the ball in his hands a true point guard will be under used. If a great assist producung PG (John Stockton) played beside Roy his totals would decline. The same reason the “pick & pop” play is used is to draw the defense out of the key so Roy can penetrate. Many ask why Aldridge doesn’t roll to the hoop more, ask Nate. If CP3 somehow ended up in Portland (won’t happen but he is the best example) Brandon Roy and Nate Mcmillan would have to change their offensive scheme. If the offense remains the same Roy needs to work on increasing his assists per game. For the future development of the team, however, Roy playing more off the ball would be better.
I declare shenanigans
Using stats is supposed to involve looking at as wide a breadth of information as possible, and limiting claims to account for weaknesses in the data.
With that in mind, we should recognize that picking the top-bottom of the arbitrary 50mpg sample is not looking wide, it’s cherry picking. There’s no statistical reason to do either of those things, and notice that if one changes that arbitrary threshold, the whole analysis falls apart (look at how a unit with Blake is both just above and just below that +17 unit on the list…). Also note that the guys who invent adjusted +/- ratings don’t claim they are valid over periods of minutes, but rather multiple entire seasons.
All that said, Miller has played pretty well despite being a poor fit. We didn’t get a chance to see if he and Roy could find a way to play together in the playoffs and prevent defenses from exploiting Miller’s poor shooting and Roy’s lack of an off the ball game, but Dre did provide a steady hand to run the offense when the whole rest of the team seemed to be in flux. I wouldn’t look to trade for another PG just because he’s a better fit, but rather if he brings more talent to the table than Miller, which is not an easy thing to find.
you might want to re-read the post
This wasn’t intended to be thesis. If you actually read what I wrote, I didn’t suggest that I was offering anything other than a single interesting datapoint. The only conclusion I drew from it was that it should “provide grounds for caution”, i.e., cause us to question the conventional wisdom.
Moreover, you’re completely misstating what I actually did. The 50 minute threshold is arbitrary, but it’s the arbitrary cutoff used by the site itself (not me) to delineate between lineups for which the amount of data is a least somewhat significant and those for which it is not. And I chose the two lineups I did because they where the ones in which the only variable was the PG, hence they offered the best direct comparison. While it doesn’t definitively prove anything, it is at least somewhat significant that these two lineups did so differently over the course of the season. Like I said, it’s a datapoint. Not enough to prove anything, but enough to call into question whether a Miller is really such a bad “fit” relative to a shooting PG. It was meant as a jumping off point for discussion, not a dissertation, which is clear from the post.
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I read the post already thanks
You can qualify it all you want, but the original post is trying to draw an inference from the stats and using some big statistical no-no’s in the process. Even if the website lined things up for you, it’s still a a statistical crime to ignore all the data that contradicts your hypothesis in favor of a limited data set that doesn’t, and it’s important to recognize the limitations of a stat like adj. +/- in small data sizes. And no, I don’t see where the website supposedly says it, but 50 minutes is not “significant”.
Oh please
Stats can only misused when you draw firm conclusions from data that cannot support them. My post merely offered an interesting data point meant to do no more than trigger further discussion by generating doubt about a piece of convention wisdom. Of course it’s a small sample size, and of course adjusted plus/minus has its limitations, but that doesn’t mean that the stat I cited is completely devoid of meaning. The lineups I compared are identical with the exception of Blake and Miller. Each lineup played over 70 minutes collectively (one of them over 100) over the course of last season, which while not enough to provide definitive proof of anything, is not so small that it should just be ignored. Both lineups were among the top lineups in minutes played. And the stat itself is adjusted to reflect level of competition. The reality is that one of the lineups did WAY better than the other. That’s enough data to suggest that the Miller lineup (at least of these two) is superior. It’s possibly that if you increased the sample size significant (which we have no way of doing) the result would be different, but the odds of it being different are smaller than the odds of it being the same.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
You're trying to have it both ways
Saying you aren’t making any conclusions, then declaring the statistical comparison significant and “not so small that it should just be ignored”. The numbers you used have no “significance” in a statistical sense (remember, that word means something in statistics more than just your opinion), and if those two samples are big enough not to be ignored then certainly all the other samples of comparable size that contradict them are big enough not to be ignored, even though you do. In real life though, those sample sizes are small enough to be ignored, as evidenced by the many of them that just produce totally squirrelly results.
You seem to think that by ignoring all the data except the two similar ones with the one different variable (blake vs miller in that one particular lineup) you’re somehow getting a better statistical picture, but in adj. +/- world where small samples are so random, it doesn’t work that way. Think about it. If a moderately good and moderately bad team play two basketball games (just under 100 minutes) how much randomness will we see in the results? Also, look at last year’s top minutes unit and compare it to this year’s … it’s comparing way bigger sample sizes and makes Blake look better! (unless you think Joel P and rookie Batum is so much better than Camby and sophomore Batum). There are numerous very obvious data sets that totally go against your point, so when you just choose to narrowly focus on one, it looks like a statistical crime in progress.
I don’t even really disagree with your point though, I just noticed that the way stats were used to make were used in a way that lacked statistical validity or significance. I’m not even sure if you are debating that point or not, but either way, stats are great when used correctly and get a terrible name when used incorrectly, so I think it’s important to recognize the difference.
I don't have the stats to back it up...
but if there is a perfect match for Roy in the NBA, his name is…
Stephen Curry.
If would take a lot to get him though. Maybe impossible.
I'm fine with Andre as our starter for the next to years
and backing up the 1 after that if he resigns. What I think is important is the fit of the reserve PG who will be backing up Andre & eventually take over.
Silent Swagger.
Andre: a steady, tough professional
You’ll have a hard time beating Andre’s career for a) durability b) consistent productivity c) lack of drama (save one much-need fit last January) and d) craftiness. There are very few PGs who would be better for the Blazers than Andre— especially ‘cuz we don’t have to give up anything to get him. When you factor in the cost of acquisition, I’d argue that few others besides CP3, DWill and Rondo would be worth the cost (and then only if we don’t give away any of our big 3). I think it’s high time to celebrate the fact that Andre Miller is our kick a$$ point guard and that we’ll get 82 games of quality play from him next year. Will NO be able to say that about Chris Paul?
That's Statistical Rubbish
5 of the top 6 adjusted +/- combinations (about 226 minutes) on the list include Rudy, and Roy is in only 2 of those combinations. So should we trade Roy and start Rudy?
The combination you use to support your argument is 7th on the list, and the 8th combination on the list is the 3-guard lineup with Blake-Miller-Roy. Everyone loved that combination. Maybe we could trade for Blake and go back to that combination?
The only statistic that matters is wins-losses. The best stretch of ball the Blazers played last year was from Feb 23 to April 9 (all with Roy before Roy injured his knee). The Blazers went 17-5, which sounds great. BUT, against teams that were .500 or better, they went only 2-5. In fact they lost the 2 games prior to that stretch against Boston and Utah, both at home with Miller and Roy, so they were actually 2-7 against over 0.500 teams from February to April before Roy was injured. Roy and Miller are individually good enough to beat bad teams. They went 15-0 against teams below .500. But you’ve got to be able to beat good teams if you are going to go anywhere in the playoffs. I can’t understand how anyone can say they were playing well together when they went 2-7 against other good teams from Feb until Roy was hurt in April.
You only have to watch other teams play defense against Miller to know that Roy and Miller don’t fit well together. Teams would back off Miller (embarrassing him into shooting the 3-pt shot) to clog the middle so Roy couldn’t drive. As a consequence Miller shot 2x the number of 3-pt shots per minute this year that he did last year with Philly. And his 3-pt percentage dropped from an already abysmal 28% last year to a horrendous 20% this year (or is abysmal worse than horrendous?). So playing with Roy hurt Miller’s game, and playing with Miller hurt Roy’s game because he couldn’t drive the middle as much.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 30, 2010 2:42 PM PDT reply actions
please
Look, as I wrote above in response to another comment, it’s clear from the post that I’m not making any definitive claims or suggesting that the datapoint I’m citing proves anything. All I suggested was that it should “provide grounds for caution” with respect to some conventional wisdom re: Miller. I consider the two lineups I cited significant because a) they involve a decent number of minutes, and 2) they are identical except for the PG, thus permitting a direct comparison without other variables.
It’s not “rubbish,” but it is a single datapoint. And I never suggested it was anything more. It was (quite clearly) meant as a jumping off point for discussion, not a thesis. So spare me the condescension.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
We agree that the data point your citing doesn't prove anything.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 30, 2010 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions
It proves more than anything you cited in support of your position
Do you need someone to explain to you the difference between inductive and deductive logic? I was merely conceding (as I did in my post) that the data point I was citing doesn’t prove anything definitively, i.e., it doesn’t prove anything in the deductive sense. That doesn’t mean it’s meaningless, though. It’s a data point that runs counter to the conventional wisdom of many fans (including yourself apparently) and it was offered to provoke reconsideration of that conventional wisdom. It is a piece of inductive proof that supports my position. That’s all.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
Yes, I guess you need to explain your logic.
Did you see teams back off Miller 6-7 feet to clog the middle against Roy and dare him to shoot the 3’s? Did Miller shoot 2x the number of 3’s this year? Did he shoot 20% after 11 years of wasting his summers instead of learning to shoot? Did the Blazers go 2-7 against teams at 0.500 or over from Feb till April before Brandon was hurt? Does any of that sound like Roy and Miller are a good fit?
Do you really think Andre (the coaches have never picked me for an all-star team, I’ve never been out of the 1st round of the playoffs, I’ve never been re-signed by any team I’ve ever been on) Miller is under-valued by the fans? Last year there were fans saying his was the most valuable player on the team.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 30, 2010 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions
there's more to the game of basketball that making threes
No one’s saying that Miller’s a good three point shooter. Nor is anyone suggesting that the team would be better — all other things being equal — if he was a better three point shooter. But Miller does other things very well (such as pass, rebound, and draw fouls) that contribute to winning. And many PGs who can hit threes don’t do those things nearly as well as Andre. It’s a tradeoff. But what the stats I was highlighting suggest (as well as Miller’s personal adjusted plus/minus, which was one of the highest on the team) is that Miller’s presence on the court helps the team. Spacing on offense is important, but it is just one of many things that factor in to success on the court, and looking at that in isolation isn’t particularly illuminating.
In a perfect world, the Blazers would have a point guard who does what Miller does well AND is deadly from the perimeter. But in the real world, the options are much more limited. My point is only that some of the guys out there who seem like they might be a better fit (because they can hit threes) might not do other things as well and therefore might not make the team better. The comparison of the two lineups from last season is a example of that phenomenon. Despite Blake’s three point shooting, the same lineup with Miller did much, much better.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
There is more to basketball than making 3's.
There is also the effect on Roy’s game when the defense can sag off Miller. Are you going to continue to ignore the fact the defense can play off Miller and take away the middle from Roy? Don’t you see how that makes Miller a poor fit playing with Roy?
There is definitely more to basketball than making 3’s. There are wins and losses. The only thing that actually counts. Are you just going to ignore the 2-7 record against good teams with Roy and Miller starting together?
Miller does a lot of things well, and a few things very, very well. How much they contribute to wins is another matter. Why haven’t the coaches ever picked him for an all-star team if he contributes so much to his teams winning? How does he play 11 years and never get out of the first round? How does he play with 4 teams prior to Portland and not one ever re-signs him? Why didn’t he have a single offer from any team last year except Portland, who had to get an asset with its salary cap dollars or lose them? Why does he come to camp every year out of shape and take 20+ games before he contributes 100% to his team? Why doesn’t he ever work on his game in the summer and improve his shooting (He shot 20% from 3 his first year and 20% last year)? Why are coaches and GM’s in the league so stupid they don’t see what a winner this guy is? Maybe they see something you don’t.
Despite Blake’s three point shooting, the same lineup with Miller did much, much better.
Blake shot very poorly and created way too many turnovers in the early part of the season when he was starting with Roy. Blake was pressing and playing poorly as he tried to show he deserved to start with Roy. Blake early last year was not the Blake from a year before. Just because Blake played badly starting with Roy early in the year, doesn’t mean Miller and Roy played well together later in the year. That’s really a fallacy of logic. Their record together, and just watching how easily the defense of better teams beat them, says differently.
Matty Walker: You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man. - Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 30, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
does this maybe show the impact of having no inside game to speak of
its always pick and pop, versus pick and roll. neither miller or roy is responsible for the often terrible offball movement of others on the floor.
think it is a fallacy that a point guard has to shoot 3s. you said miller got no other offers last year, and that may well be true. however, if you were to ask the 76er players the biggest difference from their season as compared to the previous one, to a man they would say andre miller. igdougla is on a record saying that he couldn’t believe they didn’t resign him. miller brings a lot to the table, and for the most part plays a contained game. he took more shots last season as shot clock ran out than seems possible~~to me that really goes to lack of an interior game.
think the point guard decision is one that the blazers need to be very sure about. if they could somehow free collison, that is the one sure one that i think they should go after. players like williams or paul just not going to happen
miller took a team that allan iverson just destroyed, to the playoffs twice. they did not get thru the first round, but most people were shocked they even made the playoffs either season. when miller was in denver, he dealt with a very different carmelo anthony who was a much more selfish player then than he is now. they still made the playoffs each season.
maybe my biggest gripe is macmillans offensive scheme, which i don’t see succeeding in the nba to championship level. you can play slowdown basketball in such a way that there is great movement, pick setting, and real offensive plays run. coaches popovich, scott and sloan have shown that.
again you're ignoring what I'm saying
Of course spacing matters. Of course having a PG who can hit threes creates more space. My only point is that spacing isn’t the only thing that matters. As the poster below points out, Miller clearly made the Sixers much better than they otherwise would have been. Basically the same team, without him, went from playoff team that almost knocked out Orlando to horrible. Miller’s absence was deeply felt.
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