KP and Tom Penn chatter. Sexual Harassment?
May shed some light on the situation...but it is hearsay until proven.
almost 2 years ago
JasonT
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you have to figure there was more to the story than the vulcans are idiots
this does seem plausible, but would the vulcans really go through this whole drawn out process to get rid of kp because he did not dispel rumors started by his agent and his friend?
"I told somebody to stop crying," Pendergraph said after the game. "Actually, I told them all to stop crying."
Interesting.
There are few scenarios that could make sense out of this whole situation, but I suppose this is one of them.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
If this is true the Blazer fans (and Canzano and Quick) that are bashing the Vulcans
are way out of line. To pick apart Paul Allen for making a healthy work environment is just wrong. I think many of us (myself probably included) need to hold back a little on this one.
Whether this is true or not
What has ALWAYS made sense in this whole saga is that there is SOMETHING there. Something worthy of firing Penn on the spot, and now something worthy of firing KP. It defies logic to think this is a basketball decision only – no KP hasn’t been perfect, but he’s easily been in the top 1/4 of GMs over the past 3 years. You don’t fire a guy for that. The logical thinking has always led me to believe that there is something going on inside that we don’t know about.
Maybe this is it, maybe it’s the other rumor I heard myself a few weeks back. Maybe it’s something else entirely. But there is something.
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
I would have to agree that there is definitely something happening.
I don’t want KP fired but if this story is true, I could understand why Paul Allen would want him gone. Although KP wasn’t the one who made the comments, the fact that he went around upper management is a good way to get yourself canned. Although he has done alot for the Blazers, he isn’t above Paul Allen, and no one is in this organization. All of us can agree that if we were in Allen’s shoes, we wouldn’t like what KP did.
Red Hot and Rolling
You simply don't take public ire when you can easily disperse it to a guilty party
If that’s the case, why would an organization known for casting blame not do so publicly? Who remains silent to defend someone accused of sexual harassment?
Dwight Jaynes may know how to write but his critical thinking abilities wane.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
not true at all
you go public, and now you are opening yourself up to a massive lawsuit. You just don’t do that.
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
They could have fired him for "misconduct"
and said nothing more. Firing KP for saying nothing, when Miller and Allen didn’t say anything themselves, doesn’t seem to add up. I can see giving KP an ultimatum, but that still doesn’t add up. And is LeGarie really that much of an idiot to lie about why a client was fired, smearing an organization, knowing that if word gets out that he’s a scumbag his career is ruined? Why not drop Penn and move on, instead of creating all the ruckus?
Not true in the least or even a little bit, it's completely 100% wrong
You absolutely give the cause for a public firing when the fortunes of your company rest on the public perception of it. You don’t release details when not necessary.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
This is the first speculation I have heard that I would believe.
It pretty much accounts for the prevailing clandestine behavior from everyone involved.
One thing is for sure, is that the story WILL come out eventually, which is why I, like a lot of you, am going to reserve judgment completely until that happens.
KP did not build anything on his own, and it’s debatable as to whether he did as fine a job as many will say with their Rose City-tinted Buck Williams goggles on. He helped build a team that we love, but also a team that has not made it out of the first round of the playoffs 4 years after drafting LA and Brandon, and 3 years after Oden.
In KP I trust, but I wouldn’t bet the farm on him, or call him irreplaceable, and if the rumors Jaynes heard are correct, then I support PA and what he is trying to do, especially since they have given him ample room and time to support the team’s actions regarding Penn publicly.
After one play today, Bayless walked to the sideline, picked up the garbage bucket that collects the extra basketball balls and then slammed it down forcefully while shouting. For no particular reason. - Ben
Can someone give me a brief rundown of the article?
The link is blocked on my side. Damn job.
If what I just commented turns out to be wrong, please delete from all memory.
http://www.dwightjaynes.com/
"And our second unit can probably start in most NBA cities." -Maurice Lucas
dwightjaynes.com is blocked
as a social networking site :(
If what I just commented turns out to be wrong, please delete from all memory.
here's the money excerpt
+++++++++++++++++
Well, I think a lot of people suspected Penn’s firing went a lot deeper than that and this one story indicates that it did. The explanation making the rounds in the NBA is that Penn made a very inappropriate remark about a co-worker, in front of other co-workers. The co-worker was a female. I’ve heard the remark and it’s something that would probably get you fired at YOUR job, wherever you work. And it had NOTHING to do with basketball, or KP.
Now we could debate whether you would fire someone for it, but one thing we probably couldn’t debate is what has gotten Pritchard in the doghouse — his reaction to it all. When Penn (and Pritchard’s) agent, Warren LeGarie, come forth with the proposition that Penn’s firing was a move against Pritchard, KP did nothing to dispute that — EVEN THOUGH HE KNEW WHY PENN WAS ACTUALLY FIRED. And he knew it had nothing to do with him, or even with basketball.
Can’t you understand why this would anger upper management? I mean, if this is all true (and a lot of NBA people seem to be buying into it), Pritchard seems to be throwing Larry Miller and Paul Allen under the Vulcan bus — when he actually knew better.
+++++++
now back in sunny portland, oregon
Ahhhhhhhh.....
Thank you so much
If what I just commented turns out to be wrong, please delete from all memory.
Why would they cite "philosophical differences" then?
Is sexual harassment an acceptable philosophy anywhere? This sounds not more credible than the allegations reported by Woj, Vecsey and others.
philosophical differences
has meant to me since february, that KP and Penn wanted to trade Rudy and got shot down by PA (as has been talked about on BE now and then). The same PA that forced KP to keep Mills instead of Collins (not that I think Collins would have been as good as Juwan this year). I am guessing something was said in anger (by Penn and/or KP) about those situations and how their hands are being tied.
Ego from all, owner wins.
"Better, not good, but better." - Herb Brooks
or any other explanation
and since we are all on BE saying what we think, i think i have a logical explanation, as least as logical as any other.
there isn’t any real data to quote, so make some assumptions and go with it, it’s all part of blogging and commenting on blogs. check the front page and Ben’s post, Penn has denied Miller has discounted it, so what else might be logical?
"Better, not good, but better." - Herb Brooks
the face thats what!
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Head Czar of Amerika <--- Mortimer said so so there!!!
Either Jaynes is full of it
or everyone else is lying. We don’t really know for sure. But if Penn and Miller are telling the truth (ergo, Dwight is talking out his bung hole), your theory is the one that makes the most sense.
I can’t really see any other alternative.
Why wouldn't they?
Just because they hire someone for an inappropriate comment, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’d want to throw themselves open to litigation either by Penn (for defamation) or the unnamed coworker (for hostile workplace) by conceding publicly the reason for the firing.
“Philosophical differences” is a phrase meaning nothing, which is precisely what a reasonable employer in the position described by Jaynes would want to say: nothing.
by howlingfantods on Jun 7, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t buy it. If he said the b-word or whatever similar to that to a co-worker, it would be no problem to fire him “with cause” for that.
I'm sure the word would be stronger than that -- with a certain one coming to mind -- yet, aside ...
from that, I’m with you in believing that this theory doesn’t hold water. If it were true, then Tom Penn would’ve been fired for cause and, more importantly Kevin Prtichard mostly likely wouldn’t’ve been held indirectly responsibile for the improper actions of his assistant. Pritchard, however, is on the chopping block, so there’s celarly something else afoot here.
I'm not seeing where Jaynes claims it's as mild as calling someone a name.
Also, I don’t know whether Penn was an employee with a contract, but in the US, pretty much all employment is at-will. You pretty much never need cause to fire someone.
I think you’re mixing up a couple of things. One is legal justification for terminating an employee— the short answer is that you generally don’t need one, unless there’s a contract involved and there are provisions in that contract that govern remediation for early termination. I’m not sure if Penn had a contract with remediation in case of termination. The second is cause in terms of public opinion.
The Blazers did in fact have no legal problem firing Penn, and did so as soon as they wanted. The problems that they’ve had pertain to public opinion and possibly causing ripple effects with friends and colleagues of Penn’s in the front office. That really has very little to do with “cause” in the sense of employment termination.
by howlingfantods on Jun 7, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
For the record btw,
I don’t know whether I really believe the Jaynes story, but it seems at least plausible, and more reasonable to believe than Ben/Dave’s belief that this is just the leadership being impossibly stupid.
Also, I thought this rumor had already been floated? At least the Penn sexual harassment angle.
by howlingfantods on Jun 7, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
People I know are saying it’s made up.
And Penn is still a) getting paid, b) employed by two TV networks as an analyst who surely have asked questions about why he was let go, c) was allowed back into the training facility after the firing to continue scouting, d) was fired “without cause”, e) nothing about an employee suing Penn is known, f) did I mention getting paid?
*shrug*
I don’t think anything you listed contradicts the story. (a) It’s exactly to keep things humming smoothly that you continue to pay people; you may not lose in litigation but you’d prefer to stay out of litigation.
(b) Being fired for coming close to or crossing sexual harassment lines is hardly something that precludes skilled workers from being hired by other companies, particularly if no lawsuit is filed. Do you really think of all the folks who have said something or behaved inappropriately at work is in some unemployable purgatory?
© why wouldn’t he be allowed back in? I don’t think Jaynes is suggesting that he’s some kind of wild eyed maniac.
(d) again, if you want to avoid litigation by both parties, often the easiest course of action is to fire the offender. The “victim” is mollified and if you pay the offender a generous settlement, they’re likely to want to avoid litigating themselves.
(e) You don’t sue a colleague for hostile workplace, you sue your employer.
Do you believe every case of harassment results in lawsuit? There are huge institutional, financial and cultural obstacles to litigating. In most cases, good behavior by management (like promptly terminating offenders and showing solidarity with the “victim”) is sufficient to forestall lawsuit.
by howlingfantods on Jun 7, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Penn called Dwight this afternoon to tell him it's not true
Of course, we don’t know if he’s lying.
I think it’s like DucRider said…KP tried to trade Rudy, drafted Oden, etc. Philosophical differences…
by HailOden! on Jun 7, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hehe
Larry Miller also already said back in March that it was not “H.R. related”, under which that kind of behavior would fall:
Another report said that Penn was fired because of some unspecified “H.R. issue.” Miller’s response was that there’s “nothing valid to that.”
So unless the organization and Penn are lying, “The Godfather” got that rumor out of the empty void.
Right. Lawyers and execs never lie
about reasons for employment termination.
by howlingfantods on Jun 8, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions
They have beat it around the bush on so many occasions
I doubt they would come out and say “this is what the issue is not” if they really wanted to keep it covered up. They would just decline to comment on the reason for his firing. That makes more sense, and is more in line with their other behavior.
That's severence pay he's receiving
if there was just cause to his firing the Blazers could have just given their reasons and wouldn’t have to pay him a dime.
He’ll keep getting a check for as long as his contract with the Blazers lasts for or until he gets tired of working as a tv analyst and gets another job with a NBA team.
Logical descriptions of complex worlds contain within themselves the seeds of their own limitation. A world that was simple enough to be fully known would be too simple to contain conscious observers who might know it.
by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Jun 7, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
exactly
Just look at the clippers and Mike Dunleavy, Stern is very upset and Donald Sterling for not paying Dunleavy. The issue being that he was fired “without cause”, because if he had a cause to fire him he could get away with not paying him.
If this rumor was true, which I believe it is not for so many reasons, (not the least of which is both Larry Miller and Tom Penn going on record to stay it is not, while those saying it is true are “unnamed sources”) then the Blazers would have been well within their rights to fire him with cause, and not pay him a dime. The cause would not have to be reported, although it would leak out eventually, so the Blazers would have saved face, and cash.
Even if true, I still don’t see how this story applies to KP. DJ is saying that because of the way KP handled this situation, he is going to be fired, but only after a few months, when Tom Penn had to be fired immediately because of it, (on the day after season ticket renewals were final….i’m just sayin.). So if this was so bad, why has it taken months for KP to be fired? The draft? really? This was so bad that Penn had to be fired right away, but lets let KP stay on until the draft. It doesn’t add up.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
The reality with these employment contracts
for pro front offices is that it’s often possible to structure events so as to not have to pay severance— creating a case for cause is trivially simple for employers.
But the normal practice in pro sports is to pay severance in most cases, mostly so you don’t get a reputation for being cheap and become an organization good candidates avoid. This is why you’re aware of the Dunleavy thing – it’s a pretty rare occurrence, and it’s specific to Sterling, and it fits into a general narrative about Sterling’s business profile.
by howlingfantods on Jun 8, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
M, not really.
It’s one thing to fire GMs or other front office staff or coaching staff before their contract terms were complete— very few teams in the league doesn’t have that in their history. It’s quite another to show willingness to litigate nonpayment of contract terms after termination.
I would assume that even if we don’t end up with these guys, folks like Presti and West are answering PA’s phone calls. They’re not answering Sterling’s.
by howlingfantods on Jun 8, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
The draft? really? This was so bad that Penn had to be fired right away, but lets let KP stay on until the draft. It doesn’t add up.
KP is needed for the draft, and there was a risk that if was fired early, Born and Buchanan would walk away as well (Lagarie would try to find them all new jobs)
OTOH, Penn might be needed during the draft, but someone like Joe Cronin could crunch the numbers and consult the CBA code and give an answer about 5 seconds slower than Tom
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Sorry that still doesn't add up to me
If what caused Penn’s firing was so bad that he had to be fired asap, regardless of the timing, (I think we can all agree that the timing of Penn’s firing was very bad) and if Blazer brass believes that Kp was involed with Penn in the event which caused his firing, (which again we can all agree to here) then it makes sense that Kp would have been fired asap as well. Both men are needed for the draft, but if what DJ said was true, that wouldn’t matter, KP would have been fired and the team would have moved on with the draft, without Penn and KP, and possibly Born and Buchanan, (although I bet they would stay on, and continue to get a paycheck until another opportunity came up).
This story that Jaynes has come up with, is so far beyond reasonable I can’t buy it. Too many holes letting the water out of his storyboat.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
"if Blazer brass believes that Kp was involed with Penn
in the event which caused his firing,"
That’s not at all what Jaynes said. He said that Penn was fired immediately; KP knew of the circumstances, and that it had nothing to do with KP or basketball, but he still allowed his agent to put it out there that this was a move against KP, hence in Jaynes’s words, throwing the Vulcans under the bus.
The story you’re considering so unreasonable isn’t actually what he’s reporting.
by howlingfantods on Jun 8, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
hrm..
ya I guess your right, not sure where I got mixed up at. Thanks :)
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
Born and Buchanan, (although I bet they would stay on, and continue to get a paycheck until another opportunity came up
Mike and Chad are very loyal to KP. I know the article yesterday said that Portland is offering them extensions to stay, but I’ll be very surprised if they aren’t KP’s assistants at his next gig.
Regardless of DJ’s sources, there’s no doubt that KP was a much more vital compnent to the drafting process than Penn. The scuttlebut since March is that Tom did or said something that required that he be dismissed immediately. Kevin didn’t. But, as the days went by it became more and more clear that Pritchard was a short-timer.
Why hasn’t he been let go yet? To me it’s obvious, he (along with Born and Buchanan) are being kept around to scout the talent and advise Paul on the draft. (Who was Allen going to hire to do this for him, otherwise—Jon Givony?) All of the other sparkies are already working for other NBA teams, and they weren’t going to be canned until after the draft—no matter how poorly their teams played last season.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I thought this scuttlebutt was already out there
from when Penn was first canned, wasn’t it?
those are some grand accusations on penn's otherwise sterling character record
i hope dwight isn’t talking out of his ass.
now back in sunny portland, oregon
If it doesn't gel, it ain't Aspit
this doesn’t seem to gel. Granted I don’t know these guys personally, but I can’t imagine smart people, as KP and Penn seem to be, would jeopardize their own careers in that fashion.
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
good point
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
I think those are two completely different situations
Woods wasn’t accused of making an inappropriate remark in a public, professional setting. He was guilty of having a hyperactive sexual appetite, satisfying it, and getting caught. Real professionals still act professional.
Need we be reminded that Penn was a former attorney? I highly doubt he didn’t understand the repercussions of making that kind of a remark, and that he’d be stupid enough to say it anyway. Not even Tiger would do that.
since we don't really know what Penn allegedly did
it’s hard to say whether he acted stupidly or not. It could have been something that was taken out of context or he could have been making fun of Paul Allen’s guitar playing. In my opinion, what Tiger did was waaaaaay stupider than making an inappropriate comment.
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
I'm not saying Woods misdeeds were any "smarter" by any means
I’m saying that neither Penn nor Woods would do something that stupid in public. Penn would/should know the kinds of remarks that will you get you fired at any job.
Jaynes claims it is something so bad you would be fired at ANY job. I’ve heard some pretty bad stuff around farmers and construction workers and it wasn’t considered a big issue, so I’m guessing Dwight is exaggerating a little. Still, though I don’t know Penn personally, I really doubt someone that smart, and that high in legal/corporate society would be dumb enough to talk like a construction worker at work. It doesn’t really add up.
I don't like shadowy rumors like this.
I don’t think it is appropriate to delve into things like this as though they are likely unless there is more evidence than is needed for a witch hunt.
If we want to list it as one of the possibilities, that is great. Really unlikely seeing as how Penn is still getting paid. But possible. Past that it is entirely hearsay and is unfair to the parties involved.
In Bayless I trust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
maybe KP and Penn were trying to develop red matter
and the vulcans were just simply getting rid of them before they can use it on their planet.
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
Dwight James
should name names. Who is the Blazer employee passing false rumors?
Dwight James should have included the fact that Tom Penn was “fired WITHOUT CAUSE”.
The Blazers should release Tom Penn from his non-disclosure agreement and let him defend his honor from slander.
I think my idea is more plausible: Tom Penn told a Turkey joke, KP laughed, and Paul Allen is still pissed that he got stiffed by the Turk and his “point-forward” idea is now a joke. Allen got burned coming and going and Tom Penn tells a joke about Turk’s Rose Garden reception and the “Thank you Mrs. Turk” sign. Oooooooooops……….. KP laughs, double-oops. Paul Allen unhappy.
Making $tuff up can be all sorts of fun, unless you are destroying someone’s reputation in the process. You can never un-ring a bell.
Not right to subject employees to this sort of stuff.
I always thought Dwight Jaynes was a pretty solid blogger. This guy sometimes is a huge troll.
You don’t report things like this unless you are sure. I thought he was better than that.
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