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The Case for Mo Williams (With Poll)

I'd like to preface this post by saying that I understand fully that what I post here is simply my own opinion and not in any way the fact of the matter.

With that said, I have to say, I have been quite appalled by the backlash against Mo WIlliams throughout Blazersedge. As soon as the Blazers were rumored to be chasing him, people were immediately crying foul and begging KP to stay far away. I...honestly, couldn't believe it. I got to thinking: what, exactly, are we seeking in a PG? A shooting touch? The ability to drive and kick? A strong defender? Of course, if we could have it all, we would; unfortunately, barring a miracle by KP, this can never happen. What is it, then, that we need for the PG to do? I've been thinking, and I've come to this conclusion: in order to truly identify what we need in our PG, we need to look back through history, find the greatest two guards who played on championship teams, and analyze the traits that the PG's on those teams had. Then, we cross those traits with the strengths of Mo Williams, and then we can truly decide whether he is the man for this team.

 

Player: Michael Jordan

Championships: 1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998

Point Guard: John Paxson, B.J. Armstrong, Ron Harper(combo guard)

 

In considering great two guards, one must start with Michael Jordan, perhaps the greatest player of all-time. Now, in looking at the PG's that Jordan played with, a few things stand out immediately. First and foremost, the shooting-touch. John Paxson, in his time, was a heavenly clutch shooter, and was relied on as a three-point threat while deferring to Jordan. This idea is found even moreso in B.J. Armstrong, who was, arguably, a top five three-point shooter in the league, capturing the 3-Point Field-Goal Percentage crown one season with a mark of 45.3%. In looking at Ron Harper, the shooting touch was less evident; he was only a 28.9% career 3-point shooter, although he did reinvent himself as a shooter later in his career. Despite of this, Ron Harper did something else to spread the floor: he could score, and he could do it well. Although his averages were average at best for the Bulls during his championship years, he was a perennial 20 PPG player before that.

There is more to these PG's than the fact that they were able to spread the floor with their shooting and scoring touch. Indeed, there is one more very important factor: the ability to defer to Michael Jordan. Indeed, their numbers were pale, at best:

John Paxson:

1990-91 30 CHI NBA 82 82 24.0 3.9 7.0 .548 0.5 1.2 .438 0.4 0.5 .829 0.2 0.9 1.1 3.6 0.8 0.0 0.8 1.7 8.7
1991-92 31 CHI NBA 79 79 24.6 3.3 6.2 .528 0.2 0.6 .273 0.4 0.5 .784 0.3 0.9 1.2 3.1 0.6 0.1 0.6 1.8 7.0
1992-93 32 CHI NBA 59 8 17.5 1.8 3.9 .451 0.3 0.7 .463 0.3 0.3 .850 0.2 0.7 0.8 2.3 0.6 0.0 0.5 1.7 4.2

 

B.J. Armstrong:

1990-91 23 CHI NBA 82 0 21.1 3.7 7.7 .481 0.2 0.4 .500 1.2 1.4 .874 0.3 1.5 1.8 3.7 0.9 0.0 1.3 1.4 8.8
1991-92 24 CHI NBA 82 3 22.9 4.1 8.5 .481 0.4 1.1 .402 1.3 1.6 .806 0.2 1.5 1.8 3.2 0.6 0.1 1.1 1.1 9.9
1992-93 25 CHI NBA 82 74 30.4 5.0 10.0 .499 0.8 1.7 .453 1.6 1.8 .861 0.3 1.5 1.8 4.0 0.8 0.1 1.0 2.1 12.3

 

Ron Harper:

1995-96 32 CHI NBA 80 80 23.6 2.9 6.3 .467 0.4 1.3 .269 1.2 1.7 .705 0.9 1.7 2.7 2.6 1.3 0.4 0.9 1.7 7.4
1996-97 33 CHI NBA 76 74 22.9 2.3 5.3 .436 0.9 2.5 .362 0.8 1.1 .707 0.6 1.9 2.5 2.5 1.1 0.5 0.7 1.8 6.3
1997-98 34 CHI NBA 82 82 27.9 3.6 8.1 .441 0.2 1.0 .190 2.0 2.6 .750 1.3 2.2 3.5 2.9 1.3 0.6 1.1 2.2 9.3

 

As you can see, the most PPG any of these guys averaged per game was 12.3, and the most assists any of them averaged was 4.0, both by B.J. Armstrong in the 1992-1993 season. Well, then, what gives? Don't teams need a great point guard like John Stockton or Gary Payton to win championships? Actually, no. As we see here, playing along a great two guard, all these point guards needed were these: the ability to space and the floor, and the ability to defer to the two guard.

 

Player: Kobe Bryant

Championships: 2000, 2001, 2002, 2009, 2010

Point Guard: Derek Fisher

 

Ah, the black mamba, Mr. Terrible Photoshoot. Putting Kobe's fashion sense aside, much can be taken from analyzing the point guard that he has played with for ages, Derek Fisher. Although there have been others, Derek Fisher has been the one that has been there by and by through it all. What, exactly, is it in Fisher that made him such a great complement to Kobe Bryant? It is, in fact, eerily similar to what made the Bulls PG'S so special: the ability to spread the floor and the willingness to defer to greatness. Let's take a look at his stats for the last decade.

 

Derek Fisher:

2000-01 26 LAL NBA 20 20 35.5 3.9 9.4 .412 1.3 3.2 .397 2.5 3.1 .806 0.3 2.7 3.0 4.4 2.0 0.1 1.5 2.5 11.5
2001-02 27 LAL NBA 70 34 28.2 3.9 9.5 .411 2.1 5.0 .413 1.3 1.6 .847 0.2 1.9 2.1 2.6 0.9 0.1 0.9 1.7 11.2
2002-03 28 LAL NBA 82 82 34.5 4.1 9.5 .437 1.0 2.6 .401 1.2 1.5 .800 0.5 2.4 2.9 3.6 1.1 0.2 1.1 2.4 10.5
2003-04 29 LAL NBA 82 3 21.6 2.5 7.0 .352 0.6 2.2 .291 1.5 1.9 .797 0.4 1.5 1.9 2.3 1.3 0.0 1.0 1.4 7.1
2004-05 30 GSW NBA 74 32 30.0 4.0 10.2 .393 1.5 3.9 .371 2.4 2.7 .862 0.5 2.4 2.9 4.1 1.0 0.1 1.7 2.4 11.9
2005-06 31 GSW NBA 82 36 31.6 4.4 10.8 .410 1.4 3.6 .397 3.0 3.6 .833 0.4 2.1 2.6 4.3 1.5 0.1 1.9 2.9 13.3
2006-07 32 UTA NBA 82 61 27.9 3.1 8.2 .382 0.6 1.9 .308 3.2 3.7 .853 0.4 1.5 1.8 3.3 1.0 0.1 1.5 2.9 10.1
2007-08 33 LAL NBA 82 82 27.4 4.1 9.5 .436 1.4 3.4 .406 2.0 2.3 .883 0.3 1.8 2.1 2.9 1.0 0.0 1.1 2.3 11.7
2008-09 34 LAL NBA 82 82 29.8 3.6 8.4 .424 1.5 3.7 .397 1.3 1.6 .846 0.3 2.0 2.3 3.2 1.2 0.1 0.9 2.3 9.9
2009-10 35 LAL NBA 82 82 27.2 2.6 6.8 .380 1.0 2.7 .348 1.4 1.6 .856 0.3 1.8 2.1 2.5 1.1 0.1 1.0 2.5 7.5

 

Notice anything similar to the Bulls' PG's? Yup, basically everything. Fisher has never averaged more than 11.7 PTS and 4.4 Assists for the Lakers? Why, then, does he have five championships to his name Simple: the ability to perfectly complement Kobe with his career 37.3% 3-Point Stroke and ability to stand aside and observe greatness.

 

I was thinking about adding more examples of PG's, but I thought my time would be better spent analyzing this question instead: if all we  needed from a PG was the ability to shoot and defer to the two guard, than wasn't Steve Blake perfect? In a sense, yes; there was a reason Brandon Roy was so reluctant to let him go. However, although Steve was proficient in the two categories I identified as important in the ideal PG, he was quite deficient in other areas that the PG's listed above weren't, making him unfit to be the PG of the future. However, he was still a great fit in Nate's system, which is really just proof the type of PG we need.

 

The Case for Mo Williams

With all that I have mentioned in mind, how good of a fit, exactly, is Mo Williams for this team? The answer, as will become evident, is that he is not only a good fit, but a great one. I know what you're thinking..."What?! That chucker who can't play D?". I understand these complaints, but lets take a look at the statistics and make an educated decision here.

 

Mo Williams:

Season Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2003-04 21 UTA NBA 57 0 13.5 2.0 5.3 .380 0.2 0.7 .256 0.8 1.0 .786 0.4 0.9 1.3 1.3 0.5 0.0 0.9 1.5 5.0
2004-05 22 MIL NBA 80 80 28.2 4.0 9.2 .438 0.4 1.2 .323 1.7 2.0 .850 0.6 2.4 3.1 6.1 0.9 0.1 2.5 2.8 10.2
2005-06 23 MIL NBA 58 12 26.4 4.6 10.8 .424 1.3 3.3 .382 1.7 1.9 .850 0.5 1.9 2.5 4.0 0.9 0.1 1.8 2.5 12.1
2006-07 24 MIL NBA 68 68 36.3 6.9 15.4 .446 1.2 3.4 .346 2.3 2.7 .855 0.8 4.0 4.8 6.1 1.3 0.1 3.0 3.0 17.3
2007-08 25 MIL NBA 66 66 36.5 6.7 13.9 .480 1.3 3.5 .385 2.5 2.9 .856 0.6 2.9 3.5 6.3 1.2 0.2 2.8 2.8 17.2
2008-09 26 CLE NBA 81 81 35.0 6.5 13.9 .467 2.3 5.2 .436 2.6 2.8 .912 0.6 2.9 3.4 4.1 0.9 0.1 2.2 2.7 17.8
2009-10 27 CLE NBA 69 68 34.2 5.5 12.4 .442 2.3 5.4 .429 2.6 2.9 .894 0.4 2.6 3.0 5.3 1.0 0.3 2.5 2.5 15.8
Career NBA 479 375 30.5 5.3 11.7 .448 1.3 3.3 .396 2.1 2.4 .869 0.6 2.6 3.1 4.8 1.0 0.1 2.3 2.6 13.9

 

First and foremost, his great 3P% becomes quickly evident. Indeed, his efficiency from the 3-Point line is borderline as great as the greatest shooting PG listed above, B.J. Armstrong. Further, it illustrates another important point to us: he is not a chucker. He does not hoist up prayers, with the hope that they go in. If this were the case, that percentage would have likely been much lower, closer to his Milwaukee days then anything else.

So, we all know he can shoot. But what else can he do? Can he defer to a great player like all of the PG's I have mentioned could? This is up for debate. Putting all my biases aside, his numbers were considerably higher than of those mentioned above, and there is no denying this. But, why don't we look at the other side of the coin. Is it possible that Williams ability to still play a prominent role while being a very efficient shooter is exactly what we need? I mean, after all, this distinction has to be made: Brandon Roy is no Kobe Bryant, and he sure as heck isn't in the same league as Michael Jordan. There is slack that needs to be picked up by his teammates, and Mo Williams does exactly this: he spreads the floor with his shooting, poses a threat to the defense, and is efficient from the 3-Point line. In fact, during his Cleveland years, his TS% was greater than that of B.J. Armstrong.

The concern with Williams, then, becomes the same concern we had with Blake and Miller: they are not fully competent on the defensive end. However, I would like to offer you with this: Williams, unlike Blake and Miller, has the physical tools to be a good defensive player. It is no longer a matter of being too old or having the lateral quickness of an old-man, but, rather, a matter of getting into the right mindset. And, if the last few years has shown us anything, it's that Nate and his staff have a good habit of getting players to work. And work hard.

Besides, if Derek Fisher has shown us anything, it's that a long frontline can do wonders to cover for a PG's bad defense. I do seem to remember a certain man named Oden taking names before he went down.

 

Thoughts?

 

(P.S...Please excuse spelling/grammatical errors, it was a long post and I'm kinda too lazy to proofread right now :))

 

EDIT: Lots of you are mentioning the fact that it is hard to compare B-Roy to Jordan or Kobe. I said I would be willing to add some more analysis on other two guards, but no one really asked for it. However, I understand the point that is being made, and I would kindly like to ask you to go back and look at any other championship teams built around two guards, and you'll find the same thing. Jordan and Bryant are not anomalies; great two guards  almost always have a PG who can space the floor along side them.

Poll
Do you think Mo Williams is a good fit with the Blazers?
Yes
144 votes
No
152 votes
Other (Please describe below)
11 votes

307 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 61 comments  |  2 recs  | 

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Mo can't play D,

and he’s a ball hog on offense. A very poor fit, IMO.

by Rip City Reign on Jun 22, 2010 2:56 PM PDT reply actions  

Really!?!?

How can you call anyone a ball hog when they are playing with LeBron?

by OllieG123 on Jun 22, 2010 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he’s an excellent fit with Roy stylistically, just not a good enough player to give up much for.l

by jksnake99 on Jun 22, 2010 3:02 PM PDT reply actions  

Exactly

If we still had Blake, I’d be all over this. With Dre, I’d really rather we not take so many steps backwards in terms of who’s running the point.

by HailOden! on Jun 22, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I agree, completely. He’s not a superstar player that we give up much for, but Miller for Williams, I do that any day. Not only is Williams a better fit, but he is also much younger.

by bishbish777 on Jun 22, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Absolutely correct. I was going to say: good fit, too costly/overrated.

Thanks jksnake,.

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Jun 22, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is a really good point

Why not wait a year to see if Bayless can be the next Mo Williams?

by LT Hutch on Jun 22, 2010 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Andre is better for the team...

The way Andre plays is just not ideal for this team or for Roy. Don’t get me wrong, I love ’Dre and everything he has done, but stylistically, Williams is a better fit.

I agree with the Bayless point, though. Little do people know, Williams was actually a fairly bad shooter when he first entered the league.

by bishbish777 on Jun 22, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

The way Andre plays is just not ideal for this team or for Roy.

The team went 17-5 from the end of Feb until 4/11 with the Miller-Roy starting backcourt

No Oden, No Przy

Could the 2010-11 team go 17-5 during any stretch of games with the hypothetical Mo-Brandon backcourt?

Even with Greg and Joel available?

Is it really worth trading talent to C-town and paying MW 9.3 mil next year to find out?

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jun 22, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Andre detractors are the same people who want CP3 and say our backcourt will be awesome

After Roy, himself (all hail the annointed one), said it would work with him and Chris Paul.

CP3, Roy and Dre and all slashers.

But you know what? It did work and it will work.

"I'm passing it down," Howard said. "Showing the guys that, hey, here's an example of a guy who played 16 years. If you don't want to listen and get the valuable, free information from him - soak it up like a sponge - then you've got to be a damn fool."

by LaoTzu on Jun 22, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'd like to say, I think it could be good that Andre forces Roy to learn to play off-ball some.

Lets him conserve energy for maybe, oh I don’t know, defense?

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Jun 22, 2010 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do I like Mo Williams? Yeah.

Do I like Mo Williams for $9+ Million? Naw.

"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."

by Arby on Jun 22, 2010 3:14 PM PDT reply actions  

yup.

"What people need to know is that those pictures were taken a year and a half ago, and I've grown since then." - Greg Oden

by dario argento on Jun 22, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

honestly, I didn't read any of the post

the title of it says enough

Mo Williams, at $9M per year ($2M more than Dre), is a horrible defender and has choked BIG TIME (even with the MVP of the league on his team) the last 2 playoffs

not what we need at all

by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 3:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Andre's toast

So far the Blazers have been reported going after 2 PGs. Think Miller is overjoyed at the Blazers’ efforts to replace him? Ask Clipper fans how much fun a disgruntled Miller is.
Right fit,wrong fit,replacement better,worse,doesn’t matter because the team now has to move Miller before season starts.

by Tisbee on Jun 22, 2010 3:36 PM PDT reply actions  

Miller's probably not even paying attention to NBA rumors

and even if he is, ‘Dre just figures it’s the same ol same ol offseason song and dance

don’t project feelings. There’s nothing worse the Blazers can do to Miller that they haven’t done already by giving the starting job to Blake last fall, and Andre “dealt with” Nate about that on Jan 7…then the team played great down the stretch with Miller-Roy at the 1-2

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jun 22, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

Miller is never "fun"

Dre just ball.

"I'm passing it down," Howard said. "Showing the guys that, hey, here's an example of a guy who played 16 years. If you don't want to listen and get the valuable, free information from him - soak it up like a sponge - then you've got to be a damn fool."

by LaoTzu on Jun 22, 2010 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Agreed, Dre will never see this stuff. He's already hard at work preparing for Nate's conditioning test next Oct,

laying on a beach somewhere eating hot dogs and letting his hair grow out. Hey, whatever works for him. Just CTC and he’s ready to play.

"Brandon eats first around here" - KP

by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jun 22, 2010 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I will not cry when Andre goes away.

I am ready to give Bayless the steering wheel and see where he can take us.

we can still win........

by RastaMonsta on Jun 23, 2010 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'm convinced.

Clearly if Kobe and MJ can win with a craptastic PG, it should be our mission to seek out a craptastic PG of our own!

But tell me, Mr. BishBish, who’s the modern equivalent of Stacey King and Scott Williams we should be trading for?

by howlingfantods on Jun 22, 2010 4:16 PM PDT reply actions  

exactly. shouldn't this post be the case for Mo to join a triangle team?

send him to minny instead of here.

dinasour type of guys choir boys

by mittsabishy on Jun 22, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

who’s the modern equivalent of Stacey King and Scott Williams we should be trading for?

Why I believe his name is…Craig Brackins!

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jun 22, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Walt "Clyde" Frazier, much?

"I'm passing it down," Howard said. "Showing the guys that, hey, here's an example of a guy who played 16 years. If you don't want to listen and get the valuable, free information from him - soak it up like a sponge - then you've got to be a damn fool."

by LaoTzu on Jun 22, 2010 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

no play for Mr. Gray

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Jun 22, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

B Roy isnt MJ.

Dick Se-la Meto says hello.

by GTsmookie on Jun 22, 2010 4:41 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Rec +1,000,000

"I'm passing it down," Howard said. "Showing the guys that, hey, here's an example of a guy who played 16 years. If you don't want to listen and get the valuable, free information from him - soak it up like a sponge - then you've got to be a damn fool."

by LaoTzu on Jun 22, 2010 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

No, just no.

Mo Williams is worse than Andre or Blake or Bayless on D by a long way. Just look at his defensive stats before he had Cleveland’s defensive system and support to rely on. They are truly awful whichever way you look at it, DRtg DWS or even steals are all just poor.

The fact that he can hit a three point shot doesn’t make up for that IMO. I don’t want Oden perpetually in foul trouble because Mo can’t do anything but play matador defense.

Draft Matt Bouldin

by MadBlaze on Jun 22, 2010 5:10 PM PDT reply actions  

One thing to consider.

Both scenarios that you were comparing with our current situations involved Phil Jackson teams. These teams were driven by a strong 2-guard, but also relied on the triangle offense. The triangle offense results in many aberrant stat-lines. Much of this can be attributed to whether or not players “get-it”, but due to this, the Jackson-team’s individual stats should be taken with a grain of salt.

by The J-Bus on Jun 22, 2010 5:34 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm sorry, I like BRoy...

but he ain’t MJ or Kobe…. plus MJ had Scottie Pippen (one of the top 50 players of all time) and Kobe had Shaq (one of the best centers ever). BRoy has ???? Plus they both had Phil Jackson as their coach.

Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.

by jenstcy on Jun 22, 2010 5:52 PM PDT reply actions  

BRoy has Oden, hopefully.

But the Phil point is the relevant one. Triangle fit =/= normal offense fit.

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Jun 22, 2010 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really?

Roy has, at the very least, Aldridge, Batum, and Oden.

by bishbish777 on Jun 22, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you meant,

Roy has Aldridge, Batum, and Oden at the most. Which one of those three is the best in the nba at his position right now or will be in the next 3-5 years? Pippen & Shaq both were during those championship runs

by TP.5 on Jun 22, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

No.

I understand you’re point about them being healthy and all, but when I say least, I say that with the knowledge that we have the pieces to bring in another great player.

by bishbish777 on Jun 22, 2010 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Really.

Oden has the potential to be a great center. But he’s not going to be Olajuwon, who needed Drexler (and MJ to go on vacation), or Shaq, who needed K*be, Horry, and D. Wade. And BRoy is not K*be or Wade, though he might make it to Drexler level. All of our guys are just poor man’s versions, at best, of the greats.

by HailOden! on Jun 22, 2010 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well...

So Olajuwon needed Drexler.

Shaq needed Kobe

Shaq needed Wade

Are you saying Oden+LaMarcus+Batum+Roy is not as good as Shaq and Wade? I’d say it’s at least debatable.

by bishbish777 on Jun 22, 2010 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

2-3 of those guys

still have some development to do. We don’t know yet, but I don’t see any of them making it all the way to MJ/Kobe/Shaq/Pippen level.

With some maturation, though…who knows?

by HailOden! on Jun 22, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you saying Oden+LaMarcus+Batum+Roy is not as good as Shaq and Wade? I’d say it’s at least debatable.

Doctor, the patient is presenting with a serious case of homeritis.

by howlingfantods on Jun 23, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would DEFINITELY agree with the diagnosis...

Oden if healthy and playing at least 65 games per year, Batum living up to the potential we see in him (and used properly), Aldridge playing a bit better defense even if his offense and rebounding stays where it currently is, and Roy if injuries don’t cause early deterioration of his body are probably better than Shaq and Wade on Miami’s title team.

So it’s a comparison of four IF’s to two known quantities. What are the odds that ALL FOUR of those IF’s become reality? I’d say slim to none. Two becoming true are possible, maybe even probable. Three are a remore possibility. All four? Too much for even the most optimistic of fans to hope for IMO.

by Rodney Gustafson on Jun 23, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't they say that by the time you hear

about a possible trade that most likely it’s already dead? I think since KP is on his last straw, so to speak, the best trades are the ones you never hear about until it’s already happened. I think those are the possible trades he might be gunning for.

by JoeBlazer on Jun 22, 2010 7:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Actualy we do run a variation of the triangle

Coach Mac simply preffers to run the side triangle instead of center triangle like Jackson.

by DephlatorMouse on Jun 22, 2010 8:13 PM PDT reply actions  

So who's the shooting guard we're trading for first in order to make these MJ and Kobe team point guard comparisons have value?

I like Roy too, but I really don’t understand how much he gets overrated by some of Blazerdom. He’s not in the same universe as either of the player comparisons on so many levels. Roy will need a lot more from his team than Kobe or Michael needed in order to win a championship. And to be honest, both of those players had another player on their team that was more valuable than Roy is too. Pippen and Shaq definitely were, and even Gasol is arguably when it comes to winning a championship. That doesn’t mean all the help has to come from the PG, but it does mean that these comparisons don’t mean anything about what we need in a PG.

by Coastie07 on Jun 22, 2010 11:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Point Taken

However, even though Roy is not in the same universe as the other players, that does not mean he does not need a similar PG. When you set up an offense, there are certain principles that must be adhered to; things such as spacing and movement. Roy may not be as good, but his talents are of the same type. Can you agree?

So, if we are to assume that Roy is not in the same league as these players, we can use the same logic to infer that we would need a PG that could play a bigger role, since Roy would be playing a smaller role than MJ or Kobe, right? That begs the question then…isn’t Mo Williams exactly that?

by bishbish777 on Jun 23, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

the lakers

without kobe are still likely a very good team. The difference between the 2 teams isnt between kobe and roy its the surrounding talent the lakers have same as it was last year. Mo williams would be great on this team provided nate can get more from him and roy on defense. Williams as a possible 4th option with a healthy GO makes the blazers unguardable

by BBG on Jun 23, 2010 1:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't like the idea of trading for Mo Williams at all and now I know why!

It seems like every time I watch him play, he’s horrible. Since his season averages aren’t horrible, then is this just bad luck? No, it’s because I’ve usually seen him play in the playoffs. All of his statistical averages go down in the playoffs except for minutes and his FG% goes from 45% in the regular season to 41% in the playoffs. I don’t want that. I don’t see any heart at all, just doesn’t seem like a winner to me.

by Coastie07 on Jun 22, 2010 11:41 PM PDT reply actions  

When comparing Roy to MJ/Kobe...

Please provide reasoning as to why the case for Mo Williams completely breaks down because Roy is not in the same league as MJ/Kobe. I understand those are two completely different players, but the basic tactics of basketball and floor spacing do not change. To complement a player with Roy’s talents, a certain PG, like the ones that were/are present with MJ/Kobe is needed.

Really, if anything, if we are to use the logic that they are not in the same league and Roy would play a smaller role than either of those players, that it makes even more sense to get Mo, who would still fit the bill for floor spacing, yet play that bigger role to make up for the fact that Roy is not quite as good as MJ/Kobe.

by bishbish777 on Jun 23, 2010 12:08 AM PDT reply actions  

^

*understand they are completely different players

by bishbish777 on Jun 23, 2010 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

True that Roy is not MJ or K*be

He isn’t the offensive player that either of them are/were. But the biggest difference IMO is that he is nowhere near the defender of those two. This is why Roy really needs a very good defender at the 2 and the 3. This is why I think that Portland can go deeper than the first round with Dre at the point, but ultimately can not win a championship with him as the starter.

What is ultimately needed at the PG position for Portland to win a title IMO is a PG that is good (not necessarily great, but very reliable) at three things, in no particular order:
1. Defend the other team’s PG, sometimes SG depending on the matchup. This means they must be a versatile defender. They can be small, as long as they are strong and with a wingspan that allows them to match up against a smallish 2 when necessary.
2. Hit the open jumper. Catch and shoot from mid-range on out to three point range. This will also mean someone that can curl off of screens effectively. Not necessary to be a league leader from deep, but at least reliable enough
3. Run the fast break. Half court sets will most likely continue to go through Roy. However, Roy is not all that good at running the break. A PG that can be the basis of transition points will lead to more easy points. With Oden, Camby and Batum in the rotation, there should be LOTS of opportunities for transition points that Portland is not currently exploiting. Nate’s system in the past has been score early, score late. In Roy, they have the ball handler to manage the clock and score late. The PG needs to be able to exploit the “score early” part of this.

Dre can run the break, and even with no major roster change, I can see Portland scoring in transition more next season. Dre is OK from mid-range, but doesn’t have the deep range consistency to make defenders respect him from out there. His defense is decent enough to work here if he was a better shooter.

Bayless COULD develop into a better shooter. He also COULD develop into a better defender. I’m not convinced he will ever be better at running the break though. This means that even if he develops two of these three areas to a level I think he could, he still will not be the ideal fit next to Roy.

Parker is lacking in too many of these areas IMO. He’d be hard to pass up on if available though.

Truly, IMO, the guy in the league that would be the best compliment to Roy would be Deron Williams. Not available this summer. However, some things he has said in the past leads me to believe he may not be with the Jazz for life. He has not been happy about some guys they have dumped to save money, and at the time voiced that this is why he didn’t sign a contract longer than what he did. Implying that if Utah’s season falls apart, he could ask for a trade. Without Williams, the Jazz have no team, so a salary dump isn’t out of the realm of possibility next summer.

I know that’s a HUGE IF, and that’s why I am all for trying to get Collison or another young PG. I don’t think Miller or Bayless are the ideal fit, although they aren’t a terrible fit either. But if Williams wants out of Utah next summer (very possible if Boozer leaves this summer and they aren’t a playoff team next year), the expiring contracts of Miller and Przybilla, along with every young prospect and draft pick Utah could possibly want, might get the deal done.

Based on my thoughts of the ideal fit next to Roy, who else is out there that fits that criteria? Any thoughts?

by Rodney Gustafson on Jun 23, 2010 8:31 AM PDT reply actions  

Could you

Sum that all up in 12 words or less? I’d save me a lot of time

by TP.5 on Jun 23, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe.

No Mo. No TP. No CP.
Deron Williams or bust!

by Rodney Gustafson on Jun 24, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Start Bayless

PG problem solved.

Get a back-up PG from whomever you trade Dre, Prz, and Rudy to.

we can still win........

by RastaMonsta on Jun 23, 2010 3:13 PM PDT reply actions  

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