Ford: Timberwolves Tried To Trade For Nicolas Batum
Chad Ford writes in his latest Insider mock draft...
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The Blazers rejected the Wolves' offer of the No. 4 pick for Batum a couple of week ago.
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David Kahn continues to be endless entertainment. There are so many Kahn trade rumors it's hard to keep up.
Ford also has the Blazers taking Kevin Seraphin in the first round and Trevor Booker at pick #34. Booker is a name I mentioned yesterday as a possible target with that trade move. The latest Draft Express mock draft has those same two names at #22 and #34.
-- Ben Golliver | benjamin.golliver@gmail.com | Twitter
over 1 year ago
Ben Golliver
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Hands Off!
Our Nico.
In Bayless I trust.
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by staylost on Jun 22, 2010 9:01 AM PDT reply actions 11 recs
ummm guys
I love Nic to but it be hard for me to not make that deal, i fully expect cousins to be there at 4, i agree with whoever said play cousins with oden and have aldridge soft self play small forward, he fast enough to hold a few small forwards, it dont hurt to have a big starting lineup, ask the lakers. but if they want Nic so bad, i’d ask for flynn to, trade miller who i really like, but nate wants more shooters flynn feels some of that, so i trade Nic and miller for the 4th pick flynn and i’d ask for corey brewer to, who would back up aldridge at small forward, he’s better than martel anyway. that trade would work cause minnesota has enough cap space to take miller contract, i wouldn’t give them big z, wanna save his expiring contract for a rainy day;-)
by Blazingatrail24 on Jun 22, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
this would be a great trade, it would look a lot like the lakers actually, with Gasol, Bynum and Odom.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
yeah but they almost never play all 3 together
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
true
that unit only played 77 minutes together but they did well, won 77% of the time.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
the point is...
that you don’t need a LMA/Oden/Camby/Cousins or Favors rotation
Lakers have 3 bigs, but they usually only play 2 at a time (Gasol/Odom when they go small, Bynum/Gasol when they go big)
We’re talking about trading Batum for another big- and that big would come off the bench at this point
not worth it
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
but we do need a LMA/Oden/Camby/Przybilla rotation
because it’s a long season and 3 of those guys aren’t exactly known for their endurance
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
sure, but in that situation you're not giving up Batum!
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Nic and Miller for the 4th and Flynn???
we give up way too much – that’s two NBA starters for a pick and a backup PG
and LMA CAN NOT play the 3 – and the Lakers starting lineup is Fisher Kobe, Artest, Gasol, and Bynum…Odom doesn’t start he comes off the bench, and Odom has a totally different skill set than LMA he’s much more perimeter oriented
not a good trade for us
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm hoping Cousins has a very successful NBA career.
He’s got a great media-friendly personality. Outside of B-Roy, how many elite players can you name who are friendly, well-spoken, and fun? Seems like the game hasn’t had many of those personalities in a long time. But it seems like there are a lot of negatives floating around this guy with respect to his attitude, commitment level, etc. Since we know the league puts up with a lot of off-court bad behavior from players are highly comitted in the gym, it’s a major red flag that this much stuff is bubbling around the guy this early.
IMHO, you don’t trade away somebody who clearly has a championship mentality and whose ceiling isn’t even visible yet for a rookie with an attitude of entitlement.
Like the Whos down in Whoville they did it without boxes or ribbons or bows, they did without centers or posting down low. They won without All-Stars and Spaniards and Frenchmen. They won with old geezers and sub-par defense-men. They won playing rookies from deep off the benches. They won with their grit and their guts in the trenches. And some who observed them have been known to say that their hearts grew three sizes (at least!) on the way. One hopes with their poise and their passion now proven that once they are healthy their game will be groovin'.
by conspirator5 on Jun 22, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
The day we trade...
The day we trade a young player with what seems like a very very high ceiling for potential talent for a draft pick and nothing else is the day I become a L*ker fan. Especially considering the blazers knack for “GREAT” draft picks… (I haven’t given up on Oden yet… but it’s getting close) =(
by Zilla the Gorilla Godzilla on Jun 22, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
can i ask this.
how good you all think Batum is? i like him to but he’s never gonna be a superstar, well in my opinion he probably wont be, not saying the 4th pick will be a superstar himself but dang Batum aint BRoy he is tradeable
by Blazingatrail24 on Jun 22, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
the #4 pick is most likely going to be an all star, especially if it is Cousins, I like Batum, but dont think he will ever sniff an all star game.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
but you have to understand the value to us
Cousins/Favors are both too much duplication of LMA and Oden. I’m not an LMA fan and who knows if Oden stays healthy, but as of now they are our guys. The only other player worth taking at #4 is Wes Johnson, and he’s very much like Batum and older.
So we would give up a 21-year old defensive ace in Batum to get his clone or a big man that will likely come off the bench
Not a good idea
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
"most likely an all-star at #4"???
I don’t know how you can state that…
Cousins is talented but has shown major attitude issues
Favors is athletic but hasn’t put it together and is falling on the draft board as we speak
Wes Johnson has NO handle while playing the 3 position
its possible – but I wouldn’t say it’s likely – check out how many #4 picks have actually become all-stars
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
You have to understand bulletin board mentality
“If I’ve seen it long enough, it sucks. If I haven’t seen it at all it has untapped unstoppable potential.”
Grass is greener, sour grapes, crow and the pitcher, cp3 and the rudy, lion and the manger, bird in the hand, etc.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
I hope you arent referring to me.
All I am saying is that we are over valuing batum, and we shouldnt be so stuck on our young talent. I am not saying Batum sucks I am just saying we should be open to ideas.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
i am refering to you, along with others
the #4 pick is most likely going to be an all star
the 2007 draft has had 2 all stars
the 2006 draft has had 2 all stars
the 2005 draft has had 5 all stars
the 2004 draft has had 4 all stars
the 2003 draft has had 8 all stars (including 4 guys who probably won’t ever go back)
It’s not like all star is an easy thing to accomplish. that’s why it’s called being an all star.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
Ok so maybe I am overselling what i see cousins doing.
But I do think he has a better chance at being an all star than LMA and Batum :)
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
by mxpx5678 on Jun 22, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
i don't see batum ever making the all star team either.
if the blazers ever get a good enough record to send two guys to the game it will be Roy and Oden, if it’s good enough for two years in a row to get 3 it’s going to be LMA getting that last spot.
Teams just don’t get 4 guys from one team.
Cousins might make a team quickly. Especially if he ends up in NJ. What eastern center is going to be good in two years?
dinasour type of guys choir boys
Hollinger rating
Hollinger just updated his projections for draft players and it looks interesting…
Here’s the updated top 12:
Player School Rating
1 DeMarcus Cousins Kentucky 16.14
2 Evan Turner Ohio State 14.79
3 John Wall Kentucky 14.68
4 Greg Monroe Georgetown 14.39
5 Derrick Favors Georgia Tech 13.78
6 Al-Farouq Aminu Wake Forest 13.62
7 Xavier Henry Kansas 13.52
8 Luke Babbitt Nevada 13.35
9 Greivis Vasquez Maryland 12.97
10 Paul George Fresno State 12.52
11 Sylven Landesberg Virginia 12.52
12 Omar Samhan Saint Mary’s 12.47
Obviously, Cousins comes with a lot of question marks about his maturity and conditioning and that’s what prevents him from being a home run as the top pick. Additionally, the difference between Wall and Turner is small enough as to be negligible, and one-and-done players are notoriously difficult to project with this system.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
Yay, John Hollinger!
Holly’s not going to be the one to keep DMC motivated when he’s being handed guaranteed money on the 1st and 15th of every month
The draft is a crapshoot. You could look back and look at draft ratings for decades and find “can’t miss” big men who fell along the wayside, for one reason or another. (Eddy Curry comes to mind.) The Blazers don’t need to take the risk on DMC, and they especially don’t need to flip Nic Batum for the privilege to draft #4 in this draft
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
horford and noah are teh kind of guys that only make the all star team when there's no one else
team oriented guys who set picks and have low usage aren’t perennial all stars.
even when they deserve it.
but you’re right, and i was off base.
bogut and howard are enough by themselves to probably ensure cousins never makes an all star team unless he winds up in minny.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
if we had lopez
there would be nonstop bemoaning how soft he is.
i think he’s good, but i’ve only seen him play against the blazers.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
by mittsabishy on Jun 22, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
the #4 pick is most likely going to be an all star, especially if it is Cousins,
There are no bonafide star players beyond Wall and Turner in this draft
there will be a few great players selected in round 1 (and probably early in round 2) but there are no “can’t miss” prospects after pick #2
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Cousins has allstar written all over him, the only thing that can stop him is his attitude.
by jksnake99 on Jun 22, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
true
but do you hedge your bets on that and give up a young talent like Batum to find out?
tough decision
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
That or shooting someone.
Still, I agree that Cousins is a double-double machine waiting to happen.
Even though I loved Nico from day one, Cousins is definitely intriguing.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
If Cousins looked good before, he looks great now
Now that I know he can shoot.
Disclaimer: everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazersedge.
was just reading
on Draft Express that his body fat % is 16.3! higher than shaq when he was in the draft. and he is supposedly in the best shape of his life.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
It's gotten down to 13 or 14
He still has some to lose, but he’s been improving his conditioning since the combine. Question is whether that’s an indication of a good work-ethic, or someone who plays for the contract.
Yes...it's Favors that seems to be carrying the "fat boy" tag these days.
Going in, I thought Favors would have been the safer pick of the two, but one seems to be getting himself ready for the draft while other seems disinterested. I am starting to think Favors might be one of those “don’t give a long contract” type of guy.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
I hear the conditioning concerns with Favorrs is hogwash
Cousins should be beating him in the workouts…he’s got 40 pounds on Favors! Personality issues, past conditioning problems and volatility, etc. seem like enough for me to take Favors over Cousins, but they could both bust, or they could both be All-Stars. It’s really tough to say, but there’s something to like and something to dislike about each of them.
lol.
If there was a plan to trade either Oden or LA as part of a package to upgrade our talent, I do the trade. If not, I’d probably to hold on to Batum especially since he might have to be the piece that we give up as a package to bring in an all-star…and by all-star, i don’t mean Mo Williams.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
Cousins
was called the best player in the draft by many different analysts, and said he had the best workouts, it is all attitude that are his questions.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
I'll keep Gregory Wayne
and let someone else tap into the potential that is DMC
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
KAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by The J-Bus on Jun 22, 2010 9:02 AM PDT reply actions 13 recs
I would do it
For the number 4 pick and Johnny Flynn
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
Unless you want to take Wesley Johnson who I’m not terribly high on due to his tweeneritis and poor handles and lateral slowness and defensive question marks (Travis 2.0, Shawn Marion would be a dream scenario), there aren’t any small forwards at that pick that wouldn’t be a huge reach to replace Batum. The likely candidates there would be Favors or Cousins, whoever is still there. While one of those and Flynn would be a nice addition, another trade (for an established NBA player) would have to follow that brings in a small forward better or equal to Nic.
I would hope
Cousins would be available, I think it would be no traditional but you could let LMA play outside and softer like he likes to and then have Cousins and Oden in the paint, it wouldnt be the traditional lineup we have now but it would work.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
Cousins is the guy who I would consider making that trade for, but his off the court stuff is probably prohibitive from a culture standpoint.
His attitude doesn't appear too bad, just immature
It’s something that, given the proper setting, could easily be pounded out of him. It just depends on whether the admin of his team is capable/willing (as Abbot put it) to do it.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
I dunno. He seemed rather angry at the refs # of times in the UK games I saw.
Rather reminiscent of past Blazer great that was just in the finals/
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
If you knew
that his upside was all star and had the same anger issues as rasheed wallace would you bite?
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
Actually, I think his upside is an all-star...a rather dominant one at that.
As I mentioned up higher, I would if there was a plan to trade either Oden or LA for a superior player.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
Right, but he's a different kind of angry.
He’s aggressive angry; whereas, Sheed was passive aggressive and paranoid. Cousins just wants to beat people down. I like that.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
FLynn is not better than anyone.
Seriously, is there a worse idea than trading for that guy? Who started this crazy idea? I would rather have Sergio or Fisher.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jun 22, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I would do it for the #4 and Ricky Rubio
but not Flynn
OJ Mayo is the Blazers' PG of the Future
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 22, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions
You really want another fancy-passing Spanish guard?
Sergio was terrible, Rudy flaked out, and now you want this kid? Sorry, I’m not drinking the Spanish Kool-Aide anymore. Unless it’s Pau Gasol, that is.
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
you get three years before you "flake out"
rudy has another shot. I think playing in the worlds in the summer hurt him.
Terrible idea
Are you seriously suggesting we trade a player that has shown greatness and the potential to get even better for another crappy player from Spain? No offence, but the only good Spanish player in this league is Pau Gasol… and his brother is apparently getting much better. But I’ve lost all faith in Rudy… Was on the fence about him his first season when he was hitting 3s, but he is totally worthless if he isn’t hitting them.
by Zilla the Gorilla Godzilla on Jun 22, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm suprised that they would try with the #4 pick...
Haven’t the Blazers front office made it pretty clear that Nic isn’t going anywhere
Nic isn’t going anywhere
unless it’s for CP3, apparently
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
yeah...
Sadly i’d have to say if it’s a good deal then i’d trade Nic for CP3…. but i’d still have to follow Batum’s career =P i love ’em!
by Zilla the Gorilla Godzilla on Jun 22, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
This trade offer from Kahn
should remind us all how good Batum is going to be and how he should be given 35 mpg at the SF for the next 10 years!
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
No kidding. It's time to marginalize Martell. I love him, but Nic needs 35 mpg forever.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I was initially shocked
And then I started thinking about who would be available at 4 and I’m not sure I can honestly say that I see any of them ending up as a better pro.
I might be crazy, but I fully expect Nic to become a player that is somewhere between Tayshaun Prince and Scottie Pippen when it’s all said and done.
At a quick first glance I read:
“Timberwolves trade for Nicolas Batum”
Stupid selective reading…I almost had a mental breakdown.
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jun 22, 2010 9:07 AM PDT reply actions
HAHA!
I would have had a heart attack
by Michael Baller on Jun 22, 2010 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I about did, man…
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jun 22, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
seriously?
we balked at the #4 for batum? Daaang.
Portland front office
has a tendency to over value our players, batum is good but he is not as good as who would be available at #4. We can’t forget that Roy was a #4 pick.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
who would you want at #4 that you think would fit our team better?
OJ Mayo is the Blazers' PG of the Future
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 22, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Turner. (yes, he could be there)
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jun 22, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Let me throw you for a bit of a spin here
would you do Batum plus expiring (prolly przybilla) for Devin Harris?
not last seasons Harris
but 2 seasons ago harris yes :)
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
tough one. I agree with mxpx— would come down to whether I thought he could return to his level from 2 years ago. I’d think hard about that trade.
based on what the T-wolves offered,
I certainly don’t think it would be difficult to snare Harris if Batum was involved. The only issue is would it be possible to replace Batum’s defense?
Harris is quite possibly the best PG defender in the league
Westbrook is getting there, but not on Harris’ level yet.
I still wouldn’t do it though. Batum has the potential to be better than Harris.
Really? That Rondo guy is pretty good.
My list goes Rondo, Westbrook, Paul in terms of D.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
Rajon Rondo
says “hi”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Doh
You’d think I wouldn’t have forgotten the Finals already….
With regards to xedubx, Paul isn’t that good of a defender. Best PG in the league (don’t give me Nash or D-Will, cuz it’s not true). He makes up for his difficulties as an on-man defender by getting lots of steals. But Rondo (god, what was I thinking?) gets steals AND plays good man defense, so it’s not like gambling is necessary.
I actually think gambling is part of good D.
Of course, it’s stupid to constantly gamble all the time, but CP3 anticipates well and takes necessary chances. Recent article regarding CP3 talks about how he constantly studies opponents’ tendencies to take them away.
At any rate, advanced defense stats don’t agree with your assumption as they love Paul much more than Westbrook or Harris.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
And the stats keepers say
not to trust advanced defensive stats, because defense is really difficult to measure on an individual player basis. I can find advanced stats that say Rudy is as good of a perimeter defender as Nic, and that Webster is worse than Rudy, or that Dante Cunningham is a worse defender than Juwan Howard.
Cousins
he is probably the best talent in this draft, but has dropped due to character issues.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
Not quite
Beasley is lazy…Cousins has anger issues.
Not sure which is worse at this moment, though. I would have to say Cousins since you don’t have to worry about him putting a beat down on someone on or off the court. Beasley would be too high off the court anyway.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
I'd love to have some players with anger issues
as long as it’s not Sheed style paranoia.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Why start all over again
developing new talent when we’ve already got a blooming talent that is fit to play in a championship run?
I mostly agree with you,
As a blazer fan I am not surprised that we value Batum that much. But I am surprised that another team would value him as highly. And I am surprised that Minnesota is willing to risk getting burned by portland again, lol.
It is Minny we're talking about...
They’re desperate for anyone to put next to Jefferson and Love to shore up one of the league’s sloppiest D’s! And who better than a DIVISION RIVAL’s best perimeter defender?
Blazers win!
what if
Batum doesn’t get any better than he is now?
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
Pretty much impossible
if you’ve been following his progress, it’s pretty clear that he’s continuing to EVOLVE WOOHOOO!!!
Batum clearly has untapped potential
my biggest worry is that his improvement is stifled by an unimaginative, overly controlling coaching style that insists we micromanage every single possession
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
and the lack of Monty
to work on developing Batum’s floor game
Blazers need to replace Williams on the staff, if it’s possible
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I really liked the stuff from the recent Batum blog translations
That referenced Nate wanting him to work on a post-up game, and getting him more involved in the offense.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Who knows with the draft.....
you can have a high lottery pick, or a second round pick, and end up with the same caliber of player. That is why you do not trade a very good player that is likely to be great for the unknown.
I think we'd use the #4 as trade bait.
But, if Batum is good enough for the #4, why would we need the pick for a trade when we could use Batum? That’s the key. It makes no sense.
people are already shying away from #4
because there’s no consensus after Turner #2 on who the next best player is
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Kahn is a moron
Thankfully we’re not.
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
He's our Frenchie and you can't have him!
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
Mon Dieu!
Logical descriptions of complex worlds contain within themselves the seeds of their own limitation. A world that was simple enough to be fully known would be too simple to contain conscious observers who might know it.
by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Jun 22, 2010 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Pzzzzzzththththththth ….
facebook.com/year5000
by Y5k on Jun 22, 2010 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your mother is an hamster and your father smells of elderberries!
Logical descriptions of complex worlds contain within themselves the seeds of their own limitation. A world that was simple enough to be fully known would be too simple to contain conscious observers who might know it.
by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Jun 22, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Logical descriptions of complex worlds contain within themselves the seeds of their own limitation. A world that was simple enough to be fully known would be too simple to contain conscious observers who might know it.
by Sexual Tyrannosaurus on Jun 22, 2010 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
it's a value thing for us - not a trade we should have made
who is the BPA at #4? Cousins? Favors? Wes Johnson?
If Oden and LMA weren’t in the fold – this would be a no-brainer, to swap a wing player for a potentially dominant big man (either Favors or Cousins)
But we have our inside stars, I’m not high on LMA and who knows if Oden is going to stay healthy- but those are our guys, and if they both play up to their ability they are a great inside tandem. Neither Favors or Cousins projects to be a big enough upgrade on them to be worth giving up Batum. And in Johnson, you’r essentially getting a better offensive but worse defensive, and older, version of Batum.
If you’re not drafting one of those guys, you’re reaching, and it’s not worth the trade anyway. So for the people who are saying we should have made that move, I don’t agree at all
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 9:56 AM PDT reply actions
Batum is a sure thing
- pick is not. There are plenty of top 5 picks that don’t pan out. I rather have a sure thing than a possibility or a potential.
The Wolves are just mad
that there isn’t an overhyped PG available at #4.
Seriously though, Nic is going to be good but…will he ever have a handle? He’s always going to be a valuable role player, but unless he can handle the ball and create his own shot the Scotty comparisons are totally silly.
I'm just not crazy about player nick names...
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jun 22, 2010 10:34 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
while his handles have a ways to go
they are better than we get to see in a Blazer uni. It’s not like we encourage him to put the ball on the floor much.
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
Sure but
he’s got a ways to go before he merits being compared to a “top 50” all-time player.
I love Nic and Blazer fans but…Nic is the next Scotty about as much as Rudy is the next MJ.
I'm just not crazy about player nick names...
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jun 22, 2010 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Nic is the next Scotty about as much as Rudy is the next MJ
irrigation canal
vs.
Grand Canyon
as far as distance across goes
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
While the difference is vast, it's more like
Grand canyon v Earth to Mars
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Haha. Noted and noted.
You’re both right. I exaggerate a million times a day—just for effect.
I'm just not crazy about player nick names...
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Jun 22, 2010 3:34 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If Cousins has no prior history of injuries...
I think it might be worth the gamble. His numbers in college against a very tough conference are close to the best of any player in the draft.
Oden is still a huge question mark and Aldridge will never be a tough inside force.
The only questions you have to answer are, will he be available at 4 and does he want it?
Please....
A proven, athletic NBA player who plays great defense and if he keeps improving could one day be an allstar (plus is still very young)….. for an unproven, unknown NBA rookie. No thank you.
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company.
OKAU OKAY, I've been reluctant to discuss this but
Would NOH be interested in the #4 pick plus the combination of whomever we were going to give up to get CP3 plus filler?
I think Batum is more valuable to us for obvious reasons but if that was the sweetener, would they bite? They would get Joel, Miller, LMA #4 and whatever else need to get CP3 and filler. That would give them 2 lottery picks @ #4 and #11. That’s potentially enough to get them a very strong team.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Batum...#4 pick?
Let me preface everything by saying I’ve become a big Batum fan. I love what he showed this past season. He seems to be such a competitor and just has a level of quiet toughness that I think The Blazer team needs. Along with the fact that he’s a great natural defender, another thing The Blazer team needs..
Having said all that, I consider the trade pretty seriously. Why? Only because I’m concerned about a player as young as Batum that is already having problems with his shoulder.
I’m not saying that he’s going to have ongoing problems with his shoulder, just saying if you think it could be an issue, now might be the best time to trade him. As much potential and ceiling as I think Batum has, I think his value compared to where we originally drafted him, is as high as possible.
Obviously it would either be a good trade for you, or a bad trade. If Batum continues to develop and becomes the Tayshaun Prince, Scottie Pippen hybrid that many people compare him to, then you probably blew it.
It physically you’ve hit the wall with Batum and/or he continues to have issues with his shoulder and durability? Then you’ve traded him at the right time. Batum is another shoulder injury away from getting the same whispers attached to him that have become proclamations of surety from many basketball pundits in relationship to Oden.
I love Batum but when I look at our roster and go through the line-up, I’m nervous that our core has 3 players that you could put question marks by their durabilty. Brandon-? Oden-? and I think you must include Batum….that shoulder was bothering the season before last, he just kept it quiet…he came back after missing a significant portion of this season, but then re-injured the shoulder but played with it….
I know it’s hard to quantify and durabilty is never guaranteed with any player. Any play can be a players last play….but if you think Batum is just not going to have the strength to play full N.B.A. seasons coupled with his national team commitments…then maybe you think about trading him, despite his fantastic potential upside.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
well if the Blazers "knew" that Nic's shoulder injury was going to be chronic
then they’d try to flip him, but if they think Batum is going to be fine, then don’t deal away the best young SF this organization has ever had
especially not for a shot at Cousins…bleah!
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Best SF this organization ever had?
I seem to remember a fella we had who wore #25 that was pretty good on both ends of the floor… Now what was his name again…..?
Blazers win!
I was a big Jerome fan
those run-from-behind-and block-the-layin hustle plays? Those were Crash Kersey’s signature before Nic was born
But let’s face it, very few people outside of Portland even remember Jerome Crazy as an NBA player, anymore. Sure he was tough, tenacious, hard-working and eventually he even developed a jump shot, but Kersey was never an all-star caliber SF. (Even Uncle Clify made it to the mid-season classic one year, but choked repeatedly in the playoffs)
The best SFs this franchise has known in 40 years are named Gross, Vandeweghe, Kersey, Robinson and Pippen. (But I toss Scottie out because he was a perimeter defender with the Blazers and never really played like a “forward” while in Portland)
Nic has the opportunity to eclipse them all in the next 5-10 years, and I (for one) don’t want to get cheated out of seeing him do it in a Blazer uniform
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Eclipse?
I know maybe my post sounded overly critical of Batum. I’m hoping his shoulder is fine and that his health is not an issue, and at this point I think those hopes are well founded. I would be very happy to see him on the roster as we enter the next season. I am a fan of Batums.
Having said that, you can’t just throw Pippen out because" he never played like a forward"? Nah…he played like an multi-skilled All-Star. If you don’t think he played like a forward go back and look at the Minnesota Timberwolves playoff series where The Blazers lead by Pippen advanced against a youthful and in his prime KG, lead primarily by an aging Pippen that outplayed Kevin Garnett.
Pippen was multi-skilled, which means he could and did more than most SF’s…but that doesn’t mean you can just say he wasn’t a small forward…He was, he was our multi-skilled aging All-Star, one of the 50 greatest players of all time, forwards.
Also, Kersey. While not flying in the rarified air of Scottie Pippen, the guy was the definition of determination and competitive desire. I do see aspects of this in Batum.
I don’t put a ceiling on what Batum might accomplish. But at this point? While he has the opportunity or potential to become a great SF he has a long, long way to go before I’d say he even deserves mention with Pippen or Kersey…let alone throw in the term “eclipse” them all…..
Playing a full season, and establishing a consistent role will be the first step.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
A straightup Batum for Wes Johnson/Cousins
is not that appealing.
But if we can include that #4 into something bigger…
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
New Orleans could be happy with that pick and #11. Just saying.
Being a Blazer fan is not exactly healthy.
Really??
You wouldnt do straight up Batum for Cousins?? We have such a higher valuation of our players than the rest of the league.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
Isn't the whole idea of this post that David Kahn values Batum higher than Cousins?
Why is it so absurd that we agree with the Minny GM? I don’t think people are saying it is a ridiculous offer value-wise. Just that it doesn’t fit what our needs are. If we move Batum, we are real thin on the wing.
by 52therim on Jun 22, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
not with our team
when we already have LMA, Oden, Camby on the roster. You give up a starting 3 to get a backup 4/5….not a good idea
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Trade LMA for a PG
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
you have a high evaluation of Cousins
he could easily be a bust, if he can’t keep his head on straight or eats his way out of the league
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
hang up the phone
Batum is untouchable. He does so much that doesn’t show up in the stats, and his game is constantly evolving. We saw such a huge jump in his confidence and abilities last Fall after playing with Les Bleus. This year, with Parker deciding not to play, Batum’s role with that team should increase again, and we should see another leap in his talent’s. I fully believe Nico can be the #2 that LMA seems reluctant to be. Don’t give up on him yet, especially not for Cousins, who is high reward, yes, but equally high risk.
I like our team, and I think they deserve another year to show what they can do together. We really never saw them altogether healthy the past season, and they still won 50 games.
Keep KP, Keep Batum, Keep winning.
Jaycation: Indie, Americana, Folk, Blues, Soul, Jazz, Afropop, Saturdays 3-5pm on KPSU Radio, 1450am and online worldwide at www.kpsu.org
I think they deserve another year to show what they can do together. We really never saw them altogether healthy the past season
From the end of Feb (when Nic was inserted into the starting lineup) until Roy’s knee was tweaked on April 11 the team went 17-5
and that was without Oden or Przy
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Sports Guy weighs in:
I’m not sure which team’s fans should be angrier
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
you have to consider Batum's fit with our team and who would be available at #4
Batum is perfect next to Roy because he guards the other team’s best wing, and is an efficient scorer that doesn’t demand the ball – that’s exactly what we need next to BRoy
Why do you think that Minny would give up a top 5 pick to get him? Because he’s 21 and he’s already one of the best and most versatile perimeter defenders in the league with a rapidly improving offensive game…by the time he’s 25 he’s going to be amazing
Cousins/Favors is duplication of LMA/Oden/Camby, and Wes Johnson is essentially a clone of Batum (better offense, bot as good on D)
Why would you make this trade? And the Hornets are not going to take #4 and #11 (two unproven prospects) for the best PG in the league – just to get that out of the way
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:14 PM PDT reply actions
I popped in here just to see the reaction to this deal.
I’ll admit, I’m shocked. You guys would not trade Batum for the #4 pick in the draft. Really?
Maybe it’s because I don’t follow the Blazers, but from what I know of Batum through looking at his stats and from what I remember, Batum’s just a roleplayer, and from my perspective, he’s not that much better, if at all, then Ariza. And the #4 pick can easily be an All-Star, if not a franchise player, especially when you consider that Pritchard’s not an idiot so it shouldn’t be a total disaster.
I’ll admit I’ve seen the same thing from our fanbase (namely we’re trying to hunt down the #4, and I’ve seen certain idiots who would object to Budinger being traded for it) but I don’t get it. How can you guys say no to this deal, and why is Batum so awesome that you wouldn’t trade for the #4?
Minnesotan Rockets fan
fanbases
always over value their young players, we invest a lot of time and emotion in them
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
and draftniks
always overvalue the ability of the incoming prospects
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
fanbases
always over value their young players, we invest a lot of time and emotion in them
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
That is true.
But this degree of overvaluing shocks me, particularly when it seems to be so overwhelmingly against this deal I find incredibly lopsided in Portland’s favor. Perhaps I don’t mean to be condescending, but perhaps the nature of the Blazers (only team in the city, and it’s well documented how much love the team gets from it) means you guys do it to a larger degree then other fans, perhaps?
Minnesotan Rockets fan
Agreed
I would even say that most Blazer fans would say that Batum is untradeable, when most of the other teams fanbases arent even sure who he is. Granted I think his ceiling is very high but not untradeable high.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
he's not untradeable
but he would have to bring back a player that actually helps balance our roster, read: an all-star PG
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Let me clarify this slightly.
If we decided to trade Brooks for Batum, would you say yes?
Minnesotan Rockets fan
..............
I’ll admit, that answer completely shocks me. Perhaps I overvalue Brooks (view him as a sort-of All Star), but I can’t believe that. Batum, who from my perspective really hasn’t proven a whole lot, can be worth an All-Star?
Minnesotan Rockets fan
not by himself, no
but as part of a package, yes he could be. Young, talented, very good defender, lots of upside, incredibly cheap contract.
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
Brooks is good right now
and will be horrible in three years. it’s the curse of the super short point.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
I don’t think Brooks is close to being allstar caliber. He scores a lot, but not very efficiently, and doesn’t do a lot else. Good player, not an allstar, and has peaked.
Agreed
Brooks is way over-valued by BEdge b/c 1) he’s a Duck, and 2) he rips up the Blazers. If you look at his advanced metrics he’s not that impressive, and I don’t think he does much for the players around him.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
My thoughts exactly.
Brooks seems to have ‘improved’ because his usage and thus PPG have increased.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
this is the problem
he is not worth an all star PG. unless that all star PG is Mo Williams.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
I agree
But think about if you are another team what you would give up for Batum, even pose the question to some of their fans. You will see how much we are overvaluing batum.
I hope I can get a bunch of championships, like 15. " - Greg Oden
I don't think that's a strong argument
ask the opposing team’s fans what they would give up for Batum – because, yeah, that would be a very accurate and realistic response…
A lot of NBA fans have no idea what Batum brings to the court because he’s not a star and the Blazers aren’t on TV that much
I think if you ask NBA GMs to name wings under the age of 22 who are better than Batum – that would give you an indication of his value – my guess is that it would be a short list, if any at all
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Batum isn't so much a roleplayer as he is unfeatured... on offense
he is already a top 20 on ball defender. His shooting stats were amazing for a guy that just turned 21 and was coming off an injury. I like Cousins and I would love to have him but not for Batum.
better question - who would you draft at #4 that you're so convinced it's worth giving up Batum
then think through that and look at what we have on our roster right now
why would you make this deal?
It has nothing to do with our fanbase “overvaluing” Batum – he’s apparently pretty valuable if Minny would give up the #4 for him
and something else to ponder – maybe Minny doesn’t like any of the players at #4 which is why they would be open to a trade – they have worked these guys out and studied them a lot – maybe they know something about them the public doesn’t yet
by rip_city_swagger on Jun 22, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
or maybe it's that 2 of the 3 likely reasonable picks (Favors, Cousins, Johnson) are 4s
And they already have 2 excellent 4s (Jefferson and Love).
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I wouldn't say no
BUT, I do trust KP.
That said, I think it’s the “win now” mentality. They don’t want another rookie. Especially if it means jumbling the roster. They’d pick Cousins with #4 if he’s there, then need to get rid of LMA to make room, acquire a starting SF and probably a PG. It’s just a big hassle for a team that’s not rebuilding.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
After scanning the comments, I didn't see this idea
What if we traded to get #4 and then swapped it for something else?
"In fact you might say that Ugly is the Blazers' secret weapon this year."
-Dave
As for the Blazers...They are officially the NBA equivalent of a movie serial killer
-basketbawful
we could swap it for magic beans!
dinasour type of guys choir boys
by mittsabishy on Jun 22, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
you mean someone like...Nic Batum?
there’s a reason why the Nets and the ’Wolves are trying to trade down, if they can
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Value Meal
Whether this trade is crazy or not:
It says something that a player we acquired on draft night who was picked at #25 (due to some nifty draft night maneuvering) is turned down for the #4 pick a couple of years later.
Somebody fire that General Manager!
OTOH
could Rudy be traded straight up for the 24th pick in the draft, right now?
how about the rights for Victor Claver and Jeff Pendergraph for DeJuan Blair?
cuts both ways, you win some and can miss a lot by putting all of your eggs in the draft basket
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
On WAW they said Rudy's trade value is dead...
Apparently, word around the league is that he’s not really interested in staying in the NBA, other than a handful of teams.
I bet they trade him to MN. Kahn’s a gambler and they have subjective reasons to value Rudy higher than most teams.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
Rudy is really annoying and an enormous disappointment
I remember people thinking he should start instead of Roy. Good times.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
it's so sad
because this situation could’ve easliy been avoided by dealing Fernandez 12 months ago
but Blazer fans would’ve had a fit and Paul Allen still had a man crush re: Rudy, back then
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Fair points. Although, maybe I’m still a bit of a Rudy fan, but I’d say his skills simply as a basketball player give him more than fair value at the #24 spot. So it’s perhaps not that he was overvalued as a draft prospect— but if he’s unhappy and doesn’t want to stay in the league, so be it.
Claver and Pendergraph may still look like the winning bet a few years down the line, I don’t know that we’re in the right spot to judge. I’d take Blair now, too. But your point that you win some and you miss some in the draft is well taken. There’s always misses. Some GM’s have missed more than hit, though, and overall I think that Portland’s reputation for having generally managed draft day well, and used it to build a successful team is not without merit.
by HowlinJoeWolf on Jun 22, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
my other point was
don’t put all your eggs in the draft basket.
Up until the MIller signing and the Camby deal, that was an accurate description of KP’s career as GM
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Oh and lets not forget his last game against the Wolves
31 points 7 rebounds, 7 assists, and 3 steals
Forget about Cousins
What about Monroe? He is suppose to be the best passing big men in this draft. I like him more than Cousins and I would’ve traded Batum for the 4th pick. That 4th pick could’ve also gotten us CP3 with 4th, 22nd, and 34th picks plus another player.
Cousins is a virtual lock for 20-10 the next 10-12 years
will he create some problems? Probably.
But guys with his size, skill, and athleticism don’t grow on trees.
And it’s not like he’s done anything that bad.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
Cousins has a ceiling of Derrick Coleman
and a floor of Derrick Coleman.
either way you’re screwed if you pick him.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
I see you jumping all over the snake
but he’s always giving reasons for the things he says, making arguments. OTOH, I’m seeing many simple contrary assertions from your side of the irritated camp.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
people have personalities
cousins is not:
10101100101011010101010100101001010100101
coleman was not:
01101011000101001010010101101010110100001
dinasour type of guys choir boys
by mittsabishy on Jun 22, 2010 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
and yet
Monroe could be selected before him, on Thursday
someone’s going to take achance on DMC, doesn’t that mean it should be Portland
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
which is all the more reason to doubt DMC
if (reports are true and) the Kings are mulling over selecting Monroe, even if Cousins is still on the board
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Geoff Petrie has been known to draft soft post players in the past with Sacramento, ...
so I don’t necessarily trust him as a great judge of talent inside.
Last 5 number four picks:
2009- Tyreke Evans
2008- Russell Westbrook
2007- Mike Conley Jr
2006- Tyrus Thomas
2005- Chris Paul
Bit of a mixed bag. Thomas is the only total bust (but, to be fair, that was also the weakest draft since 2000). Conley has been alright. Westbrook is a stud. CP3 is a superstar. Tyreke Evans looks like he will be a superstar very shortly.
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
Thomas is not a total bust. He’s a good defensive role player. Poor pick at #4, but a useful player.
i actually think he's vastly overrated as a defensive player
sure, once in a while he’ll get a Sportscenter type block, but he’s never averaged 2 bpg or 1.5 spg and as a one-on-one defender, he leaves a lot to be desired.
sorta like camby-lite on defense
Get well Greg! Rip City is still behind you!
Considering that, I say take the deal
60% sides on the probable.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
Glad we didn’t pull the trigger on this trade despite whatever potential upside the number 4 pick posses.
Batum is part of our core (along with LA, Roy, Oden if he can stay healthy) and we need to keep this group together. Despite their age boston have been in contention the last three years because there are clear roles established within the team. Trading batum who is now recognized as our best outside defender with the ability to take the open shot essentialy sets as back as we establish someone else to fill that void.
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