Blazersedge Mailbag, Thursday June 10th: All About Point Guards
I'm back in the saddle enough to have a go at an abbreviated mailbag. This one encompasses various point guard questions.
What do you think of the Blazers going after Goran Dragic?
In theory I can see this kind of move being productive for the Blazers. In the last mailbag we talked about getting someone else's reserve or borderline-starting point guard that they didn't have room for and we thought would blossom. I like Dragic's shooting, his energy, and mostly his court sense. But in this case I don't see why or how Phoenix gives him up unless the Blazers are willing to make a sweetheart deal. They know Nash is getting older and if he really is that good they'll want Dragic as their point guard of the future.
We won't reach the top without a point guard. What's wrong with Miller? We all know that Andre doesn't have quick feet or the engaging personality that fans prefer. He also seems like a "nice guy" that usually beats (up on) his match up. Furthermore, why question his longevity when he's a proven ironman? He could have a lot left in the tank and he seems to be unfairly judged. What are the odds of Bayless ever developing a strong left hand? In contrast to Miller, fans just love Jerryd and he's crippled by his hands. This prevents him from being a successful PG. I really like Jerryd and wish his scowl would rub off on the rest of (particularly LMA) the team. Would it be wise to make minutes for him at another position or let him go?
There's nothing wrong with Miller for now. In another earlier mailbag I claimed that he was a great bar-setter for the Blazers, allowing them to function comfortably for the next year or so without feeling forced to make a move. They certainly don't need to bring in anyone worse than he. But there are better fits long-term. Iron Man or not the guy is 34 and has played almost 900 games and 31000 minutes in the league. Maybe he's a John Stockton type who can play until he's 40 but the Blazers probably won't want to bet their future on that if (as you have asserted) we can't reach the top without a point guard. Keep in mind his game is physical, which tends to get harder with age. Also remember his contract runs either one or two more years at the team's discretion and they'll be looking to save money. I can't imagine how any of the foregoing could be considered "unfair judging". It's hard to argue with Father Time.
Your assertion that fans love Bayless is odd, since I've found plenty of fans love Miller as much or more. I think Jerryd is a hard worker. I believe he can develop certain aspects of his game that have been lacking, his outside shot being one example of recent improvement and his defense going somewhere on the "to do" list. I don't think you get the full Jerryd when asking him to play outside of his comfort zone though. The brilliant Jerryd isn't the facilitator or the shooter, it's that guy who pounds the opponent's skull for 15 free throws and 40 points. If I had to guess (always a perilous process) I'd say he'll not become just a point guard in this league and may never start as a traditional point. But he has plenty of potential as a reserve for Portland right now. It depends on which way they want to go. They shouldn't be averse to trading him for a more targeted player but they shouldn't feel bad at all keeping him either, as he does provide that punch they need off the bench.
Throwing out everything except basketball skill (salary, likeliness of acquisition, etc.) who do you think is the perfect PG for our starting lineup?
Throwing out everything, give me Terry Porter in his prime. But if you mean in the league and I have to pick one player, how could you not salivate over the prospect of having Chris Paul in the lineup? He, Batum, and Aldridge key the running game. If that's slowed down the ball goes to Roy and/or Oden. You have the distance shooting, the passing, another major scorer, reasonable defense, the whole package. Plus he and Roy reportedly like each other. There are tons of other guys I could mention (and I'm sure people will champion their own in the comment section) but if you're going to just give me one point guard free with no strings attached I'll go for Paul. Unless, of course, you'd consider LeBron a point guard.
As far as I'm concerned, and as far as I can gauge, the only position on the floor that we can improve using this summer's free agency is the point. It pains to say it because I, like many Portlanders, fell in love with Dre's play last season and are cautiously optimistic about Bayless; but what about Wade? Is there a way or reason why a Wade, Roy, L.A., Oden, Batum line-up isn't a possibility?
Because Portland can't afford him? Also wade gets a ton of shots. In this case it'd probably be a Wade OR Roy and everybody else offense. But you know if the Blazers got Wade everybody would faint away anyway. I'm sure it's an experiment the Blazers wouldn't mind trying...except for the price.
Is there any reason why Brandon Roy is not the Blazers starting point guard? He could start with Webster, Batum, Aldridge and Oden. It provides the Blazers with two three point shooters and Webster is starting where he has proven he is effective. This allows the Blazers to send Miller, Fernandez and Pryzbillia anywhere to get a good sixth man (perferably a wing player with Jeryd, Cunnigham and Camby adding the extra punch off the bench.
There are shades of possibility in the suggestion. For instance if Roy and Bayless play together then Brandon becomes the de facto point guard in many of the halfcourt sets even when Jerryd brings the ball up the floor. However the big question in any lineup that pins Brandon as the official point guard is "Who defends the opposing PG?" In the case of the Roy, Webster, Batum lineup you actually have to ask who defends the shooting guard as well. The best permutation would probably be Batum taking the point, Roy defending the off-guard, and Webster defending the small forward regardless of their relative positions on offense. However Martell may not make as sweet of a shooting guard as you think as he has trouble with the dribble. As the players around Brandon have developed (or not) the better question has been "Is there anybody on this team worth pushing Brandon to PG for?" I don't see a permutation at this point that would be better than the Miller-Roy combination.
The other issue here is Brandon's desire. I don't believe he wants to play point full-time. He seems to like to step into and out of the offense, to sometimes facilitate and sometimes dominate. That's the M.O. of many modern point guards to be sure, but Portland's crying out for a guy who will take the responsibility of getting all of this young talent touches and points. Brandon's not going to want to be that guy. His strength is as one of those young, talented players getting his points who is also great at involving others when necessary.
A loose comparison here would be an actor who sings versus an actual singer. John Goodman can belt out a tune. A lot of the people on Saturday Night Live sound great doing impressions of real singers. But if you were to transfer any of those people to a concert setting and make them perform for two hours you'd soon see the difference between them and professional singers. Maybe with training and practice they could become pros in that field as well but is that really the best utilization of their talent?
If Brandon ever becomes the point guard it'll be as part of a multi-purpose lineup that, in essence, has no point guard because all three players at the small positions serve that function. I could see Batum becoming a player like that someday but Webster never will. Bayless would count as an official point guard if you put him in. Fernandez might be able to do it but he creates more defensive issues. If it happens, it'll be because of some unforeseen (and at this point seemingly unlikely) acquisition.
Last season I remember Andre Miller commenting that Nate wanted to point guard position to have zero turnovers (probably a slight exaggeration). To me that means that Mills, Sergio, and even Steve Nash will (would) never work out in Nate's high efficiency offense. What point guards in the league play the same way as Nate played? And once we have a point guard like that, how will we fare against teams who play fast and quick?
The quote probably wasn't a reliable basis for judging the offense. You have to remember that Nate has been trying to coax wins out of a young and inherently unreliable team for the last few years. The young part mandated teaching the basics first. I once saw poker star Daniel Negreanu talk about teaching a novice to play the game. The first thing he said was ignore almost everything you see on TV. If you try to make those kind of moves right out of the gate you're going to get annihilated. Learn the odds, make the basic plays first, get to know the game before you get fancy. That's been Nate's approach as well. Low turnovers are part of that fundamental structure of the game. You and some buddies can go out and try to play like the Golden State Warriors in a game at the "Y" but any decent, coherent team is going to beat you. Heck, the Golden State Warriors mostly get beat while playing like the Golden State Warriors. Naturally Miller has been around longer and knows more tricks than the younger guys. His game is going to chafe a little against Nate's progression. They seem to have resolved most of that, or at least come to a truce.
The "unreliable" part of "young and unreliable" meant that even if the point guard and coach had a bunch of whiz-bang ideas everyone else might not have been able to follow along. Speeding up the game means speeding up decision-making. Everyone thinks of more opportunities for shots and points but there are also more opportunities for mistakes. Until a season or so ago the Blazers were having trouble keeping it together at the pace they were playing. Limiting possessions made sense. This season they didn't have enough bodies to implement changes in strategy...they were forced back into the basics by circumstance. Life won't always be this way. You're going to see LaMarcus Aldridge out more and more on the break. You're going to see Nicolas Batum green-lighted for more early shots. In the call for more progress, more wins, more entertainment we sometimes forget how little time this team has had to settle in...not in terms of years, certainly, but in terms of having healthy, experienced, and cohesive key players on the floor together.
Sergio Rodriguez didn't work out here. The book is still open on Mills. But I'm comfortably sure that if you were to hand the Blazers Steve Nash on a platter Nate would be overjoyed.
More soon. You can send your questions to blazersub@yahoo.com. Please put "Mailbag" somewhere in the subject line.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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"Unless, of course, you'd consider Lebron a point guard".
hahahaha, you’re the man, Dave!
...and that's the bottom line 'cause nicolas batum said so!
Any thoughts on Avery Bradley as PGOTF?
Doesn’t satisfy the ‘getting young talented guys touches’ criteria but he can shoot, is athletic and has been referred to as Rondoesque on D. Worth a shot as a Bayless replacement?
bad handles
probably isn’t a pg in the nba
I’m also not fond of feeling the need to replace bayless when the dude is only 21 and showed good improvement in his second season
by HD on Jun 10, 2010 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure on his handles
Heard mixed reports and having only seen him play twice I can’t really say.
Perhaps I should have described him as a potential Bayless upgrade rather than replacement. While Bayless’ strengths and weaknesses seem incompatible for our starting pg at present, Bradley’s shooting, defense and ability to play off the ball all make him seem more attractive. While it would be a gamble, replacing a 21 year old pg project with a 19 year old one which seems more compatible isn’t all that silly IMO.
I’m not sold on him necessarily, rather interested in him as an alternate option to our current candidate for the ever open PGOTF spot.
Avery Bradley doesn't have bad handles -- which is a flaw possessed by, oh, Rudy Fernandez -- but ...
it’s true that he wasn’t much of a distributor in college. Yet, Bradley isn’t the worst prospect at the 1 in the 2010 NBA Draft when it comes to passing, for that dishonor belongs to Eric Bledsoe. Anyhow, I like Bradley due to his three-point shooting range, ability to hit mid-range jumpers both in catch-and-shoot situations and off of the dribble, and strong defensive chops. Bradley, in essence, is smilar to a young Keyon Dooling, which’ll make him a very useful role player in the NBA. Now, alongside Brandon Roy, I’d rather have Bradley in the backcourt than, well, a me-first gunner who pounds the air out of the ball such as Jerryd Bayless.
I could imagine him as our #3 PG/SG as early as the upcoming season or a year after that. Hardly as a starter.
It’s too bad they can’t see him in summer league to check on his progress.
Summer League would at least be against very athletic players
A good international tournament is much higher quality of play, BUT summer league is tons more athletic, and thus we can see how he does against NBA level athletes at this stage of his development.
M—
#52
his foot is on a cast
I doubt this is the year, but Finns are resilient so maybe next summer
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I could still see Andre last a couple more seasons at this level, but it's true that he's starting to collect miles on his tires
He has already cracked the top 50 among guards in terms of minutes played in the regular season ever, and is #8 among active players (higher if Finley and Iverson don’t play anymore).
Players like Stockton, Payton, Kidd, Jackson, and Porter all have a couple of minutes and seasons more on them, plus more playoff minutes.
those missing playoff minutes are huge
As Indiana Jones said “it’s not the years, it’s the mileage”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Dragic might as well be carved from gold...
after his performance in the playoffs, no way do the Suns let him go unless they get a lot for him…I’d love to see a guy like him on the team, but it won’t happen…I’d love to see Bayless go, but it won’t be for Dragic.
Try following your own logic:
Phoenix is a good team with a nice mix of veterans and young talent. They are a little longer in the tooth than the Blazer’s, but their general situation isn’t much different. You look at their roster and see that they have a quality starting PG who is nearing the end of his career and a quality young back-up PG who is entering his third season. Your conclusion:
after his performance in the playoffs, no way do the Suns let him go unless they get a lot for him…
I agree. Why on earth would you trade Dragic when he is likely to step into your starting position? You certainly wouldn’t trade him unless you were getting a future starting PG in return.
Now, lets look at the Blazers. We have Dre and Bayless. I would argue that the logic is exactly the same. Why on earth would you trade Bayless?
If you are going to argue that Dragic is better than Bayless, try actually looking at the evidence. Bayless and Dragic are nearly even in most statistical categories. Lets compare their performance in the regular season and the playoffs. For each category I have listed the regular season first and the playoffs second:
Bayless:
PER 14.3, 15.5; TS% .534, .536; PTS/36 17.4, 17.1; 3PT% .318, .400; FT% .831, .792; AST% 22.1, 27.9; TO% 13.8, 9.6
Dragic:
PER 14.8, 17.0; TS% .566, .536; PTS/36 15.6, 18.5; 3PT% .394, .325; FT% .734, .742 AST% 24.1, 24.9; TO% 18.3, 12.3
Bayless has an edge in some categories; Dragic has an edge in others. Overall these guys are amazingly close. Just how close becomes apparent when you look at Win Shares:
Bayless: DWS 1.0; OWS 1.7; WS 2.7; WS/48 .098
Dragic: DWS 0.8; OWS 2.0; WS 2.8; WS/48 .094
In fact, Dragic is the best statistical comparison to Bayless of all the young PGs who came into the league in the last two years. Dragic is a slightly better shooter from 3 pt range, but Bayless has been coming on fairly quickly, and actually shot better than Dragic for the last two months of the season and the playoffs. Bayless is better getting to the line and shoots a better % when he gets there. Both are learning to distribute. Dragic had a slight edge in the regular season, Bayless had a slight edge in the playoffs. Bayless has a slight nod defensively. Dragic is two years older, so it is not surprising that he was a bit ahead of Bayless in some areas early in the season.
As close as these two guys are statistically, I think it would be foolish to predict which is going to develop into the better PG in the long run.
What continues to amaze me is the endless enthusiasm with which you, and your fellow Bayless skeptics, covet other young PGs who are not any better than Bayless. The number of posts urging trades for Conley, Hill, and Dragic is amazing. When you actually look at the numbers, none of these guys is a significant upgrade over Bayless. Perhaps it is time for you to re-examine your evaluation of our own young PG. Perhaps it is time to apply the logic of your statement about Phoenix to the Blazers situation.
by upper left corner on Jun 10, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Haven't got stats to back me up,
But I have to disagree with you. I live in PHX and watch EVERY Blazer game, and most Suns’ games. Dragic strikes me as a clearly better player at this point. The metric I use is, “how comfortable do I feel when this guy has the ball in his hands.”
However, I will say that Bayless THIS year, reminds me of Dragic LAST year, so I’m hopeful.
Wanted: A MEANER Blazer attitude! Knock somebody down and step on him!
You are making my point.......
Which is that those who rely on subjective evaluations consistently underestimate how well Bayless is playing and underestimate how much he has improved.
If you look at the actual stats, Dragic clearly is not a significantly better player. Besides, Dragic is two years older. Given how quickly Bayless has improved, there is no telling where he will be in two years.
by upper left corner on Jun 10, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Furthermore,
I think the reason that Bayless “looks worse” is because his ability to get to the line and his excellent percentage when he gets there counter-balances his relatively low FG%. That is why Bayless’ TS% is much better than his FG%. Casual observers tend to not see how much of a difference this makes in Bayless’ over-all efficiency. As Bayless’ shooting improves, his TS% is going to improve dramatically and fans will start to realize what a powerful and efficient scorer he can be.
by upper left corner on Jun 10, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
you can use stats all you want
< s>i’m with all the ‘eyeball’ voters, and still say jason williams is the best pg ever because he looks totally sweet while he’s playing. numbers are for dumbheads.</ s>
dinasour type of guys choir boys
by mittsabishy on Jun 10, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I just love it when folks say stuff like "logic and evidence is for sissies."
by upper left corner on Jun 10, 2010 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Numbers don't pass the eyeball test
It’s like when some posters kept crying about how the Blazers got killed in the paint against Phoenix, when in reality, the Blazers only had one game where they were outperformed on interior shots.
Doesn’t matter to them, the Blazers are weak and won’t play inside. Thanks for keeping up the good posts.
dinasour type of guys choir boys
by mittsabishy on Jun 10, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
It could be called champions for Bayless
or head in the stats, or possibly just another opinion on the new look point guard (or point guard by committee people)..
In a “point guard sense” of the word, Dragic is technically better than Bayless. There were times this season when Dracic outplayed Nash and was left out on the floor. A good point guard makes everyone on the floor better and can still remain a threat as well. I must agree with your perception of Dragic, he is the better player..Sometimes all you need is the minutes and he got plenty of that this year..I doubt that Phoenix gives this guy up, but Bayless played at Arizona and would be essentially returning home.( if someone in this organization was thinking along the same lines).
Bayless has yet to shake the tag “tweener”, but Portland hasn’t decided what they want yet and whether they intend to rotate their point guards and use the 3, 2 ,and 1.
This type of offense does not work with Miller, so there you go…it will be a matter of what type of players the Blazers will go with and whether they choose the path of least resistance to getting a workable solution. They may combine the styles, but so far this has left them at the same level.
Also, the team’s system has demonstrated very few offensive options out of the rotating guard theory. This is possibly one of the road blocks to the next level. The team has evolved some and has more variations than before, but unless they can get some inside scoring, penetration, and back cuts they will still live and die by the outside shot.
The team is riding through some bumps in the road that have altered their timetable and has left them more questions than answers. Solutions, will likely, have to get played out on the court and hopefully (sooner than later) some of the speculation and expectations will be replaced with reality.
Some would say I am a Bayless hater…this is untrue.. I truly like the kid and expect him to improve. My issue is strictly a perception of how i think this team should handle the point guard position…it is too key of a position to install players that aren’t equipped with “floor general” characteristics. And I also think it is the missing ingredient to future success.
Miller proved his style had value this year, but it was entirely against the grain. Nate could end any hopes of this approach and return to the “rotation guard” only offense that Roy seems to like. The issue, it seems, is that Miller was granted his style because they had no other options, and not necessarily because that is what Nate wanted.
Upper left corner
I agree with most of your post, but in this case I have to go with looking at the player in a game. That may be due to the fact that I am not a stats man.
I do agree with the fact that JBay is going to get better and better. The Suns will not let go of Dragic anyway. I don’t evaluate a player on a one game or a one team performance because it is a proven fact that some players exceed against certain teams and fail against others.
All in all I have to agree, you are just smarter then I am and sometimes I miss your point.
hg
Dont try to tell me actually observing a player during a game is an effective way to evaluate them.
Sounds way too old school to me when we have fancy stats like PTS/36, TS%, and FTA/36 to tell us just how awesome Bayless is. I’d be shaking in my boots if I was a scout right now.
Stats Poo!!!!!
Stats are for what he did yesterday, not for what he does today. Stats shows nothing about who he was playing at the time, his time on the floor at one time, his emotions, (did he have a dog barking at him?). Was he left in the game when he wasn’t playing so good? which means that the only time he gets big minutes is when he is playing good. That is not a good evaluator of a player that we can count on game after game, time after time. That is what I am looking for. Nevertheless, you did open my eyes to the fact that I was comparing him to players that had four years of college and not his age. Therefore as said I will re-value my assessment of him. I still think with all the stats and about $2.00 you can buy a cup of coffee. How much does a cup of coffee cost now days? It used to be a dime when I was drinking it LOL.
hg
The saying is that the trained eye can tell you better what happened in a particular game, but the stats watch every game. When we’re dealing with a player we watch a lot like Bayless, a combination of observation and statistical analysis is warranted. When you’re dealing with a guy folks don’t get to watch much (Conley or Felton), stats probably give a much better picture.
by atomiccafe on Jun 10, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Most scouts rely on experience
and simple observation and let the analytic view blend with their observations. The scout ‘s largest tool is his knowledge of the game and it’s fundamentals . He would be looking for things like team play, attitude, physical presence, athleticism, conditioning, dedication, ball handling, court awareness, passing skills,ability to use both hands, floor positioning, and a whole bunch more. This could be considered old school, but I guarantee these are the tools of the trade today, as well. No one is ever chosen simply because of statistical information. While this information is useful, it has little value unless you have personally witnessed the player with a trained eye.
When casual fans have a difference of opinion, doesn't looking at the stats......
………..seem like the most effective and objective way to evaluate the difference of opinion?
Clearly, the entire trend in sports scouting and player evaluation has moved towards more statistical analysis and more sophisticated statistical measures than an old school Box Score.
If you want to argue that I have abused the stats in some way lets have a discussion about it.
As the saying goes, “Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. They are not entitiled to their own set of facts.”
by upper left corner on Jun 10, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
No argument that you have
the facts (along with all other casual fans)….Some can use this information (if they wish) and as the saying goes, you can’t argue with statistics…But of course that is not my argument and I am also not arguing your presentation of them.. the argument is trained eye vs casual fan and others that use statistics as their only window on player evaluation.
Please view this, if you have the time. It is rather long but quite enlightening on the world of anaytics.
.http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/5/18/1478475/kp-talks-basketball-analytics-at
It has many of the gurus of analytics, including Hollinger. They will put statistics in the right perspective for you, and also talk about it’s use and limitations in the NBA today.
also you have missed my point on what (in the field) scouts do…I said nothing about using an old school box score…I mentioned some of the many intangibles that can’t possibly be noted out of any stat line or be determined by anything other than a trained eye.
Your position comes across as "Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up."
If you think I am using stats in an illegitimate way that misrepresents the situation, I would welcome a discussion about those issues.
I don’t think I have misrepresented the players at all. The stats I listed cover their production across almost every aspect of the game, and almost every measure of efficiency. If you disagree, let’s hear how and why.
Standing on the sidelines and throwing out snarky criticisms doesn’t do much to advance the discussion, in my opinion.
When people have a difference of opinion, it is frequently helpful to look at the actual evidence rather than standing there yelling at each other. All I am trying to do is look at the evidence.
by upper left corner on Jun 10, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
We have been down this road enough times already.
I have resorted to flinging poo from the sidelines, I doubt it is any less productive at this point.
To sum up my position, stats are a useful tool in evaluating a player, but that is about it. For instance, This season Sergio Rodriguez put up 15 and 7 per 36 to Jerryds 17 and 5. Sergio had a better FG%(48%-41%), TS%(55%-53%), EFG%(52%-44%), 3pt%(35%-31%), PER (14.8-14.3), AST%(32%-22%), and STL%(2.4%-1.1%). Surely using these “facts” we can conclude that Sergio is a better player, and specifically a better(more efficient) scorer than Jerryd, or that they are at least pretty much equal, right?
by RudiFTW on Jun 10, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
"There are three kinds of lies:
Lies, damned lies, and statistics"
- Samuel Clemens
“How to Lie with Statistics” A book by Darrel Huff
Wanted: A MEANER Blazer attitude! Knock somebody down and step on him!
Stats are facts, not lies.
Stats can, however, be abused and misused in ways that lead to false conclusions.
It is fine to question the way stats are being used to make a point, but ignoring them is just plain ignorant.
If you or anyone else thinks I have misused stats then let’s talk about it.
by upper left corner on Jun 11, 2010 4:43 AM PDT up reply actions
irony
last year at this time Phoenix would’ve jumped at the chance to deal Goren for Rudy
and Blazer fans would’ve hated it
today? 180 degrees
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
"Keep in mind [Miller's] game is physical, which tends to get harder with age."
Seems like speed fails much earlier than strength. That’s why centers last longer than guards. The way Miller bounced back when clearly hurt several times this year gives me confidence in his durability — if any point guard can play to 38, it’s him.
I think future decisions about Miller will be all about money and the alternatives. If some other point guard doesn’t become available and it doesn’t cost luxury-tax money, Miller remains a good fit.
Lastly, there’s a chemistry question. We’re about to integrate Oden into the lineup for a third time, and each time we do that people start bumping into each other. Miller took half a year to find his place on the team, and the first half of next season is going to be about turning the “RAMBO” lineup into a working unit. That’s basically Nate and Andre’s job. Suppose that starting 5 has become a total machine by next year’s playoffs — then would you cut Andre loose? I don’t think so.
by Kaboomm on Jun 10, 2010 6:32 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I would have to strongly consider whether I’d take Rondo as the hypothetical wish this was our PG pick over CP3.
Same here. It would be almost a tossup if not for the fact Chris Paul can shoot better.
by collectiveshane on Jun 10, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Rondo, hands down
Better D makes up for the outside shooting, imo. While I’m a big advocate of finding shooters to replace Blake and Trout (and Rudy…), defense is what wins championships.
In the end, the winner is not the team that scored the most points, but the team that prevented the other guy from scoring more points.
Why a point-guard-of-the-future (pgotf)?
You tell me: It seems to me most teams’ point guards come either by trade or FA or they’re drafted and become the starting point guard within 1 1/2 years at the outside and usually they wrest the mantle in the first year or to start the 2nd.
How many pgotf’s actually become the point guard and if the answer is almost never then why do the Blazers need one?
That’s because it’s rare for a player of Bayless’s pedigree to end up in a backup situation, because they are usually drafted by crappy teams who give them lots of run. I’d say there are two players right now who are backups but are likely to be starters when the older incumbent retires: Lawson and Dragic. Bayless might be a third. So it’s not as rare as you say.
I agree with your point about most drafted pg's going to crappy teams and
Bayless being in a unique position in that the Blazers were not crappy when he got here (though had he been Chris Paul, Deron Williams, maybe even Rajon Rondo he might’ve convinced the team they didn’t need to sign Miller). But this isn’t about Bayless.
It remains to be seen if Lawson and Dragic become their team’s point guards, right? What I want to know is how many current point guards or even point guards in the last ten years were once “the point guard of the future” for their team?
by LaughingJon on Jun 10, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Jameer Nelson: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nelsoja01.html
Rodney Stuckey: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/nelsoja01.html
Lou Williams: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willilo02.html
Aaron Brooks: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brookaa01.html
Both Nash and Harris were not starting point guards when drafted by the Mavs, but eventually assumed the role (although they do not play there anymore, obviously).
None of the first four guys are world-beaters, but they all have above-average PERs and were developed into starting PGs by the team that drafted them after being bench players for several years. So I’m going to stick with “it’s not as rare as you say.”
Thanks. Good examples
although it looks like Nelson, Stuckey and Brooks all became starters half way into their second year (I could be wrong). Williams has been groomed longer but I’m pretty ignorant of him. Is Phil. excited about his being their starting pg?
by LaughingJon on Jun 10, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Lou was one of the reasons they were willing to let Andre walk, but their front office is a mess, so I don’t know if we’d want to trust their judgment.
Bayless played so little his first year, he’s basically only played a season and a half worth of bench player minutes. It makes sense to give him at least until the trade deadline to see if he can make an impact, if not a full season as the backup PG.
Lou Williams is just a fully developed version of Jerryd Bayless, with my hope being ...
that Doug Collins gets quickly frustrated with “Sweet” Lou’s gunner mentality, cuts down his minutes drastically, and lets the defensive-minded Jrue Holiday play the 1 alongside Evan Turner and Andre Iguodala at the wings. Turner, who reminds me of a young Grant Hill more than anyone, would thrive under Collins. However, the Philadelphia 76ers have to first draft Turner.
I don’t watch the Sixers, but his numbers don’t scream gunner: 58% TS and 21 USG means I want the guy taking more shots not less. Care to explain?
Jrue Holiday had a higher AST%, lower USG%, and was a more efficient 3PT% ...
shooter than Louis Williams. Holiday did have a problem with turnovers, although he should be able to cut those down with Eddie Jordan and his Princeton offense being replaced with Doug Collins and his more methodical, down-tempo style of offense.
The guy is still a valuable NBA player even if he’s not really a point guard. Most anyone who can score that much that efficiently will find a nice role in the league.
I don’t see why you need to denigrate every guard who’s not a natural passer (a skill that really is quite innate and rather rare) as a “me-first gunner.” It’s not like Durant or Bayless or Williams is selfish in not setting up teammates as frequently as CP3 or Nash. They just aren’t great passers.
Kevin Durant isn't a gunner or chucker, though, for he's admittedly an ...
ultra-efficient scorer. Heck, I even have to give Durant credit for improving mightily as a team defender this past season. Yet, Durant’s inability to run an offense through anyone but himself will be his Achilles’ heel. So, even though my original assessment on Durant a few years ago was too harsh in its criticism, I still contend that he’s got a fatal flaw in his game.
Roddy Beaubois is definitely 3rd.
While he’s not a distributor (at least not yet), there’s no way a guy who can ball the way he does is going to ride the pine behind JJ Barea.
Terry Porter
he wasn’t a PG when drafted. He was behind Valentine and Colter on the depth chart. Darnell was hurt, so TP got to play a lot of minutes and then he worked hard on his game and took over as the starter in his 3rd season
Bayless’ game is similar to Porter, and he was younger when drafted than Terry. Both “PGs” played (or should be playing) alongside ball-dominant SGs (we haven’t seen the 1-2 Rex-Roy combo much, yet, which I suspect is partly why Bedgers aren’t more optimistic re: Rex’ future. If Nate isn’t confident-enough in Bayless to put him out there with Brandon and no other PG, then why should fans be?)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Porter is a great example and appropriate
but that was also 20 years ago – or about four generations in basketball years.
by LaughingJon on Jun 10, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
that's a sad commentary
on the Blazer’s ability to draft and develop their own starting PG, wouldn’t you say?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Bayless isn't that similar to Porter
Porter was a good distributor and a GREAT outside shooter. I hope Bayless is developing both skills to an extent, but he has a long way to go. I still see him as a mostly one-trick pony.
That said, I do remind myself often — as you basically point out — that next year Bayless would be a college senior. So he deserves some patience.
Porter was a good distributor and a GREAT outside shooter
You must not remember Terry much back in ’85-87 as a 22-23 year old, when he shot 26 for 102 from behind the arc and his ATO was less than 3-1
TP had to work his backside off to become what you remember he was in 1990-1992. Bayless has the drive and talent to do the same thing, but if Jerryd shoots 25% from behind the line when he’s 22-23, it’s not gonna happen for him
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I accept your point
I see Bayless as starting from almost zero as a playmaker, but his outside shot looked decent this year. I guess we agree that he has much potential to improve.
Jerryd needs to work on his decision-making
250/150 A/TO is very poor for a “PG” But remember he hasn’t had the same opportunity as his peers during the last 2 years. I wouldn’t be surprised that he’s been given the fewest minutes of all the lottery picks in the 2008 draft, unless one of them was injured? (A lot of that was due to Nate/KP “making Sergio and Rudy happy” but I suspect that won’t be an issue, this coming season.) The more Bayless is able to play alongside Brandon, the better he’ll look—like TP with CD, back in the day
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Why do we love Miller so much?
He is productive to be sure. But is he a winner? He has never been out of the first round. If we could make an upgrade at the position, or even a lateral move to a younger guard with more playoff success (Parker?), then I would be all for it.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
I agree
I hate it when people say something along the lines of, “we did fine with Miller” or “Miller’s good for another year or two until another option comes around”. I think that’s just admitting that people are content with first round playoff exits (Miller’s M.O.), rather than making a push to the finals. I think that we really need to make a bolder move with the point guard situation (i.e. Parker, Harris, etc) or we need to commit to playing a style where Roy essentially serves as the point guard like LeBron & Kobe, in which case we could ship out Miller along w/ players like Rudy and Webster to upgrade the wing positions.
I disagree
I hate it when people say something along the lines of “commit to playing a style where Roy essentially serves as the point guard like LeBron and Kobe”…
Um, it was LA’s point guard Derek Fisher who won game 3; and who is the most repected player on LA. And you can see how well LeBron hogging the ball worked against a tough D like the Celts…
Portland, perhaps more than most teams, absolutely need a steady point guard – exactly like Andre Miller – to get the ball moving, so we have more offensive options that a LMA fadeaway or a BRoy ISO!
and by more offensive options you mean
the Andre Miller ISO, or the Andre Miller jumper????
No, and don't get me started on the FBP Champ Roy throwing daggers to Dre....
How about offensive options that include:
1) Oden pick and ROLL (and that means pass it to him)
2) Camby and Oden doing the high low post
3) Oden and LMA doing the double screen up top like the Celts do, with Dre driving?
4) BRoy off a screen?
5) Maybe some kind of play where Nic Batum drives to the hoop? (just once in a while?)
6) How about BRoy and Batum both come off of low post screens (here’s a crazy thought) at the SAME TIME?? (instead of Nate’s wonderful one player run around picks while everybody watches him strategy)
7) How about a side iso, like the Celts have run for Pierce occasionally?
8) How about a Dre drive and dish?
9) Dre post up
10) Greg post up and dish?
Got lots more, but you get the idea – ball movement, player movement, and multiple options each set are the key.
I’d like to see Nate, like he did with the 20 second rule, have a 3 second rule: you can only hold on to the ball for 3 seconds: after three seconds, you have to have passed the ball or shot it… get some freaking MOVEMENT out there, if you please!
Dave is far more sanguine about Nate than I am
but I hope he is right, and that the Blazers excruciatingly slow pace and iso-heavy offense have been the results of circumstance and inexperience more than any inherent conservative tendency or lack of imagination on Nate’s part.
If that is the case, however, I would expect to see in the preseason the Blazers trying to get out and run a lot more. This isn’t a youthful, brash team any longer. Miller and Camby have been around forever, Roy and Aldridge are entering the prime of their careers, Nic has been playing professionally for a little while now.
I actually disagree with the fundamental precept of this column, that PG is the biggest need facing the Blazers. I think the biggest needs are reliable backups at SG and Center, due to the Blazers’ history of injuries at those positions.
I mostly agree with you.
What is your definition of sanguine, Optimism? Nevertheless, I feel Dave was saying that Nate had to teach the young-uns to walk before he could teach them to run. Last year he supposedly wanted Dre to run the second unit for uptempo, speed and scoring equality. That did not happen because of injury. But we did do more running after Batum got healthy, and Dre became familiar with the team mates and LMA learned how to trail a fast break or receive a alley opp pass.
Therefore, I agree with you that this pre-season should be for more running and timing if we are actually healthy. We have Camby to take Greg’s place for speed until Greg is ready.
I also agree with you on the PG not being our biggest need. With Nate’s system with using utility guards a combination of BRoy, Dre, Batum (pg experience in France), Bayless and hopefully Martell if he ever learns to dribble, would give us any combination of pg we would need. IMO as you said a back-up SG or a back-up shooter that is reliable is what we need most. Maybe, center back-up because of injury would be nice, but with no more playing time then offered if our crew of centers can stay healthy would be hard to find. We have Pendergraph, Howard, and Freeman in case of emergencies. I agree that you can’t have to many centers but to find one that doesn’t want most of the playing time may be rough.
hg
I would guess sanguine (nice word use) implies tolerant, accepting, optimistic...
He seems commendably slow to criticize in general. Far more sanguine than I am on Nate as well. I am just so tired of hearing how interesting players (or plays) don’t fit in “our” system. Hmmmmmmm, what to change.
A while back I posted a quote from Dragic on how his coach instructed him to go out there and play his game and not worry about mistakes…. Who does that NOT sound like. Tight play is not your best play. You have to get on the edge of your ability, not beyond. To find that you have to be allowed to go over and back. Phoenix’s coach developed Dragic. All this talk of Nate developing young players, what, when someone gets injured and they get a chance to play by necessity. Teach Oden to avoid fouls by benching him ? Why not let the refs do it when he fouls out – hardly a new question.
Well, anyway, sure Dragic would be great, till Nate got a hold of him, not that Phoenix is dumping needed talent anytime soon.
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
by Berkeley on Jun 10, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great post
Just to reiterate:
1) Nate supposedly wants to run, but our pace is glacial. Is that poor coaching, a smokescreen, or incompetent players?
2) Our offense is incredibly predictable and easy to stop. Should we get more people that can play in that offense – or change the offense?
3) Exactly right on Nate “the great teacher of young’uns”… Really? Who has improved dramatically (like Dragic) under Nate’s tutelage? Anybody? You learn from your mistakes, and because Nate doesn’t let anybody make any, nobody learns…
4) Taking GO out after 2 fouls should result in immediate termination of the coach this year.
I think saying he wants to run is an overstatement
1) He wants them to run half-court sets and get out in transition (something like the Celtics, I’m guessing). Before you can get out in transition, you need to know how to not turnover the ball. Not all of our players are good at that yet, so they need to learn to take care of the ball in practice and in the half-court sets. That’s the reason for the glacial pace.
2) We are one of the most offensively efficient teams in the league. Yes, it’s often predictable. But it is very difficult to stop Batum on the perimeter, Roy on the drive, LMA from mid range, Miller posting up, and Oden at the rim.
3) Ummm, Batum, Bayless, Webster (I would argue that his midseason performance is evidence of how far he has come), Oden, and Trout all improved a lot from where they started. Yes, you learn from your mistakes, but you also lose games that way.
4) That’s harsh, no he should not be fired for that, but yes, Nate should let Oden learn how to play with fouls. On the other hand, I understand what he is thinking. Human beings respond to incentives and disincentives better than they do to anything else; if players want to PT, the will learn not to foul. Also, there’s SOME (not a profound amount) merit to managing fouls; if you end up in the penalty early on in a quarter, you can get killed.
We are one of the most offensively efficient teams in the league
As much as fans want to complain about Nate (and Roy’s) boring ISO offense, it’s the team’s defense that will need to improve if the Blazers are ever going to pick up the pace and become a successful team in the playoffs. Losing Greg and Joel to injuries last year was huge, but the team played it’s best ball after the Camby trade and when Batum was put back in the starting lineup. Two superior defenders led to much-improved interior and perimeter defense, and the ball was in Andre’s hands more in transition than when Juwan and Marty were starting
I’m hoping for an assistant coaching hire who will change the team’s defensive outlook and challenge the players to make a defensive commitment. I know it’s a tough sell, because Nate is set in his ways, but it simply has to be done at some point, because even with great interior defenders like Oden, Camby and Przy, there still has to be a hand in the face of the opponent’s 3-pt shooters, and Batum can’t be everywhere at once.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
My dream
Is that BRoy realizes that with a competent PG like Miller (and that he doesn’t have to handle the ball every possession), that he can devote more effort on the defensive end. I still recall vividly the great d he played on Joe Johnson several years ago, but he just doesn’t seem to try very hard on the defensive end. It doesn’t seem optimal to ask Batum+the bigs to handle all the defensive responsibilities.
yes, some young players have improved,
but who made the greatest coaching contribution there? I would suggest some of the excellent assistants we have had.
Yes, the players have to take care of the ball, but are they really THAT bad at it ? And if you do lose a few games in the regular season building skills that payoff in the playoffs, that is not necessarily a bad tradeoff.
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
I think
That Miller needs a year with this team without all the injuries before we start saying we need a new point guard right now. That being said, I seriously think that the Blazers need to make a decision on where the future lies. Do we need to go shopping for an established point guard, do we go after a backup in hopes of grooming for the future or do we stick with developing Bayless/Mills? The window for answering this question is going to shrink rapidly as most NBA points need at least 3 years to develop. The Rose’s of the league are rare and virtually impossible to pry from a team once they become established.
I honestly think if there are any trades this summer it will involve a shooting guard. PF and C are abundant in the draft this year, our window for developing a PG is small and getting smaller each year. I think the other possibility is to hold off on getting one this summer, see how Bayless progresses and see if we can pick one up before the trade deadline, if Bayless isn’t working out, as we have some contracts that could be packaged together to achieve that goal.
IMO Miller could definitely play through his contract and possibly get another one with us as a backup/insurance, with Bayless taking the baton from Miller. With Nate’s type of slow efficient iso offense, it doesn’t wear on a player like a run and gun offense would. Miller might not be an allstar, but he’s as close as you get without being one. Plus, I think that Miller is a good fit with Roy if you put one more pass into play on offense, we don’t need Miller to hit the three, just the open man.
At this point, I think all teams are asking for Batum in any potential trades. Not a fan of giving up a bird in the hand for something that could be a mirage.
Get busy livin', or get busy dyin'. -the shawshank redemption.
you know who looks like he'd make a good pg - bryce harper
this would be a really good time to bring the nationals to portland.
Bayless should model himself after one of those PGs in the Finals
And I dont mean Rondo. I think with Bayless’ body type and style of play, Derek Fisher is an excellent role model. Bayless has a higher ceiling in that he can finish at the rim, but um, Fisher has like 5 rings or something. He plays D very well for an aging small PG, hits lots of timely shots and facilitates without dominating the ball. In fact, he plays off the ball a lot. We dont need a dominate PG, just one that plays the right way. I am not sure Jerryd will be able to take that role and Patty might be a little too slight.
Like Dave said, we’ve got Andre for now and he will work. If we cannot get a superstar PG or someone as good as facilitating and controlling tempo as Andre is, then we need a strong minded defensive PG that can hit the 3. I know Chalmers has had some character issues but he could be someone that could be molded into a steady PG with the right coaching. Maybe he isnt a fit character wise, but there have got to be some other defensive minded PGs out there for a reasonable price.
I have a dream
Batum is reportedly going to play PG for France this year, which should teach him to be a facilitator, to control the tempo, can be a tough PG defender, can shoot the three, can drive to the rim, pass, good open court vision. (hitting Martell for those threes, and dishing off to the bigs); What else to you need in a PG? We just need Nate to utilize the talent he has and give Nic more time, and a green light.
hg
Interesting thought...
I Batum could handle the ball well enough, how scary would that be?
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
If Batum ....
That international play can be an asset, as well as a liability.
Don’t hurt yourself, Nic !
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
I have a dream
That Roy, Batum, and another SG/SF with some point guard-like skills can all play together and take turns playing the point guard role
In league that favors penetrating points, why would you intentionally deprive yourself of that advantage?
You need someone quick
Small, explosive PG’s will blow past that line-up too easily. Yes, Batum can guard PG’s, but that can be addressed by using two quick guards (in other words, Monty Williams would throw out any combo of Collison, Thornton, and Paul, and we’d be pretty screwed on the defensive end. Washington could do something similar with Wall and Arenas).
What we need for that to work is another Batum. Or LeBron James. Unfortunately, the reason those players are so valued is because they are so incredibly rare.
I think that a possible answer to this
is playing solid TEAM defense, and taking advantage of size mismatches on the offensive end.
that's true, as well
when Roy and Miler were both healthy, they were taking turns posting up small PGs and creating double-teams, fouls and easy baskets
it takes a team defensive effort to prevent penetration and close out on 3-pt shooters. Portland has done it for flashes in the past, but they need to become much more consistent with their rotations and overall effort
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
What we need for that to work is another Batum
What we need is a 6’4-6’5 kid with long arms who can defend PGs and SGs and penetrate, run the pick and roll and drop in floaters from the dotted line area
Someone like…Dominique Jones
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
DX says he can
so I’ll go with the opinion of the guys who have studied the film
DJ might not be Steve Nash, but at least his college system had a PnR as part of their offense
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I had the same conversation
a few weeks back, I was blogging with someone that feels the same. THAT SOUNDS GREAT, NO SUPER GREAT TO ME.
hg
I don't think Nic was ready this year
to be an NBA point forward. He was ready to be our primary perimeter defender, an amazing spot-up shooter, and a 4th or 5th option on offense. After another summer of playing that role in Europe, and hopefully learning some tricks from Diaw, Nate will probably trust him more.
What else to you need in a PG? We just need Nate to utilize the talent he has and give Nic more time, and a green light
I actually beat you to this vision by a few months. I too think Nic can develop into a point forward, and in a year or two he, Roy and Bayless will have enough ballhandling skills to run the offense without a true PG like Miller being necessary. Batum is actually very similar to a young Nate McMillian as a tall wing who can handle the ball, make post-entry passes and shoot spot up 3-pointers (as well as defend the 1-3 positions with tenacity)
Frenchy needs to work on his back to the basket game, so he can take advantage of smaller players when they’re switched off onto him, like Steve Nash was during the playoffs. (It’s too bad Monty’s gone, because he was helping Nic improve at an excelerated rate, despite Batum’s shoulder injury.) Eventually, I’d like to see #88 take the ball on the wing and back his opponent down, like Tayshaun Prince does. If the other team sends a double-team, then Batum could whip a pass to the open man for a shot or another skip pass
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Dave the Agnostic.
Funny for a man in your profession, but you seem to be an agnostic when it comes to Bayless. On one hand, you seem to agree with the skeptics that he isn’t likely to become a starting PG. OTOH, you seem to recognize that he has some utility as a bench scorer and acknowledge that the Blazers can afford to give him some time to see how he develops.
As usual, you seem to be taking a position down the middle, which seems pretty reasonable. However, I think your position is based on some assumptions that are debatable:
I believe he can develop certain aspects of his game that have been lacking, his outside shot being one example of recent improvement and his defense going somewhere on the “to do” list. I don’t think you get the full Jerryd when asking him to play outside of his comfort zone though. The brilliant Jerryd isn’t the facilitator or the shooter, it’s that guy who pounds the opponent’s skull for 15 free throws and 40 points. If I had to guess (always a perilous process) I’d say he’ll not become just a point guard in this league and may never start as a traditional point.
You say, “The brilliant Jerryd isn’t the facilitator or the shooter.” This is undoubtedly true, at this point. What makes Bayless special is his ability to get to the basket and the line. As I have stated repeatedly, over the last twenty years, there have only been a handful of second year guys who have gotten to the line over 5 times per/36. All most all of these guys have gone on to become big time scorers.
Where I question your logic is in your apparent conclusion that Bayless’ brilliance in this one area somehow reduces the likelihood that he will develop as a distributor or shooter. You seem to acknowledge that he is improving as a shooter, but at the same time, seem highly suspect that he will improve as a distributor. Why?
The evidence is limited because Bayless’ playing time has been limited. Furthermore, the evidence is confused by the fact that Bayless role has fluctuated dramatically. Many of his minutes this last season were at starting SG and back-up SG. It was not till after the Blake trade that he got moderately consistent minutes at back-up PG. Still, the trend in the evidence seems pretty positive:
AST%: 2008-09: 18.3; 2009-10: 22.3; 2010 Playoffs: 27.9
TOV%: 2008-09: 19.3; 2009-10: 13.8; 2010 Playoffs: 9.6
To me, it seems illogical to assume that because Bayless is great at getting to the line, and is a very good scorer, he can’t learn how to pick his spots and how to distibute the ball. Particularly, given his age and the fact that he was moved to SG for his one year at UA, it seems reasonable to expect that it is going to take some time for him to make the transition to NBA point.
Bayless AST% is very close to other young PGs like Evans, Rose, Jennings, Hill, and Dragic. It is only when you compare him to guys who had four year college careers, like Collison and Lawson, that his numbers lag.
Certainly, Bayless isn’t a sure deal and is probably more of a risk than some other young PGs, but his potential as a scoring PG is probably greater than most of his peers precisely because of his explosive ability to get to the hole and the line.
Finally, I think your comment about Terry Porter is a good one. You want a scoring PG who can get to line and hit the 3. I think it is reasonable to expect that Bayless will develop in that direction. Terry took several years to develop 3 pt range. He was good at getting to the line, not as exceptional as Bayless, but good none the less. Porter and Bayless have very similar bodies and both played a hord nosed aggressive style on both ends of the floor.
by upper left corner on Jun 10, 2010 10:12 AM PDT reply actions
I am not a JBay lover, but I love your optimism.
You opened my eyes with your post, and I am all for developing what we have that is already familiar with Nate’s system whether then gambling on someone else that may not be as good or better in the long run. Besides, we should get an extended year on his development because of the hectic season we had.
I just forget how young and inexperience he is, so I will buy into your post and support JBay at least until the end of next year.
hg
Even as a 19-year-old sophomore at UCLA during the 2006-2007 season, Darren Collison was already ...
showing the innate qualities like court vision, deferential personality, and an ability to make plays for others that’s needed in a point guard. Unlike skills such as shooting efficiency that can be improved with practice, being a floor general who’s proficient at dishing out assists is an ability that players are either born with or hone at a very young age. It’s rare for a player to develop pure point guard skills by the time they reach the NBA, with guys like Terry Porter being outliers. The same fact applies to wings, too, which is why OKC fans better hope Kevin Durant’s career path is more like that of the anomalous Rick Barry than George Gervin.
Exactly...
Bayless doesn’t have the vision. That is mostly innate, and very tough to teach. He also thinks score first, and that also is very tough to take out of a player’s head. If you try, you typically see a player in the air, with no where to go… (turnover).
ULC, you are a consistent Bayless honk, and your use of stats adds to your argument, usually, but then you say that
The evidence is limited because Bayless’ playing time has been limited
Well, yeah, exactly. So what makes you so sure, on such limited sample size, that he CAN develop the vision and unselfish attitude of your prototypical point guard? You can’t laud his improve shooting, quoting his improving stats (based on the ridiculously small sample size of 6 playoff games) on the one hand, and ignore the stats that seem you indicate he’s not an assist guy…
I think Bayless can learn to be a decent NBA player, but he’s not shown anything to suggest he’ll be a leading assist man in the NBA.
and 1
floor general who’s proficient at dishing out assists is an ability that players are either born with or hone at a very young age. It’s rare for a player to develop pure point guard skills by the time they reach the NBA
Noting the words “floor general” and the phrase “either born with or hone at a very young age”
My thoughts as well …..and would just add that the NBA has become a training ground for young potential players. These players cannot be as fundamentally sound as say a four year guy coming out of a good system. You would think that a point guard position (floor general) would be extremely BBIQ sensitive as well. Not that you can’t develop BBIQ, but it helps to get the fundamental foundation built far in advance of entering the NBA.
I would also add, that it doesn’t appear to me, that Nate has any special skills at developing players. Drafting so many young and fundamentally lacking players, it would almost become overwhelming. (so he just plays it safe with a suffocating system that will always put limitations on what the player can do, or subsequently develop from.
whatever skills your born with
sometimes needs the right environment before they can be recognized (even by the player himself). College is a players choice that can give him an opportunity to mature, develop, discover, and apply those skills and thus be better prepared to enter the NBA.
The reason why I point out early entry into the draft is because once you enter the pro world, you are immediately thrust into an environment of production and entertainment. Some average and above average players will find themselves on the bench and with less minutes to hone their skills. At least in college, the player has a choice of what school he attends (and coach he can learn from) and can get his “basketball degree”, take it out in the world with a foundation to build upon…
There is no doubt, it depends on the player, but there has been an influx of raw talent into the NBA for quite some time now. Rosters are full of these players and NBA teams keep adding specialty coaches to to the staff to help them develop.
In short a lot of skills and wisdom can be developed in college and at less cost, more environmentally friendly, and the added bonus of an education. Sure the player’s career is “on hold”(money wise) but for most it will have payback and could help solidify their career.
One could ask the question…how many players have gained benefits from playing under the systems and coaches the likes of John Wooden, Dean Smith, or Mike Kryzewski. Sadly, due to the “new wave” environment for pre NBA players, the college atmosphere could develop into an ‘organized playground" of sorts. The atmosphere can’t help but change, when so many freshmen are going into the NBA.
It’s becoming more of a showcase for the NBA and thus they are robbing talent from the college ranks leaving team building and fundamental honing behind in the wake.
This is probably more of an answer than you wished, and I apologize for that….It’s difficult for an old school believer, like me, to accept all the new approaches…. So I guess my comment is a bit bias and probably clouded with sentiment….
ULC is a big enough Bayless believer for all the rest of us
but the person who needs to be convinced the most, is Nate. As soon as I see Bayless and Roy playing together at the 1-2 for several long shifts every game, then the jury is still out, re: Jerryd
No amount of stats and optimism can replace this simple fact: for Rex and Roy to gel, they have to play alongside other at the PG and SG. We simply haven’t seen that combo enough to know how productive they can be, because for whatever reason Nate hasn’t put them in the game together without another PG (Bake/Miller) being out on the floor with them.
Like so many other things in life, seeing is believing. Blazer fans will come around re: Bayless when Nate and Brandon show “that” kind of confidence in him. Here’s hoping it starts in October from the first day of camp. No more “second units”! How about a 3-guard rotation?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I think the playoffs demonstrated Nate's increasing trust level
In the playoffs, you do what you think gives you the best chance to win.
Bayless has come a long way in a short time. The seaon started with six straight DNP-CDs. It ended with Bayless averaging over 25 minutes per game in the playoffs. Obviously, Blake was traded, and Roy was hurt. But Nate had other options: he could have played Rudy more (20 min/game); he could have played Andre more (35 min/game). The fact that he chose to play Bayless is a good sign.
I too am anxious to see what a Bayless/Roy pairing looks like. Ultimately, that is what will determine whether or not Bayless stays or goes. No matter what the stats look like, Bayless will never start unless he can play effectively next to Roy. He has to shoot better, he has to be able to feed the post, he has to set up teammates with his penetration, and he has to be able to defend. If he can do those four things it is going to work out.
by upper left corner on Jun 11, 2010 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Last season I remember Andre Miller commenting that Nate wanted to point guard position to have zero turnovers
Dave’s response
The quote probably wasn’t a reliable basis for judging the offense.
I can remember Barrett commenting during the game when the Blazers had a very low number of turnovers that Dean would flash him a smile and hold up his fingers. That tells me that Nate and Dean are very concerned about controlling the ball (risk-averse) Drafting a young PG and handing him over to this coaching staff is not a good organizational strategy. It’s been proven over 5 years. The best PGs acquisitions for the Blazers are veterans who already know the NBA game, like Blake and Miller. Bayless may survive the Nate/Dean gauntlet, but Jerryd’s going to be given more of a chance because he was a lottery pick
Draft wing players. That’s what Portland needs, and then trade from your excess depth for a proven PG, at least as long as Nate’s the coach. (I suggest Tony Parker. He’s somewhat available, experienced, and still young enough to fit the Roy career timeline.) If it takes surrendering LMA to get him, then oh well. This coaching staff has a better track record re: developing a starting PF than a young PG, and it’s not even close
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I would Love to get Tony Parker if we could
I think tony and Batum could play quite well together, but I don’t think we should give up that much for him; Not because he isn’t worth it, but because I don’t think we need him that bad. I think LMA’s game is going to be needed when Greg is developed, and Greg will be developed.
hg
Maybe not right away
but a decision re: Tony is going to be made by the Spurs in the next 12 months, and there isn’t another high-quality late-20s PG who is available, unless you count Devin Harris.
I like the LMA-Oden combo, a lot. I’m not looking to deal LMA, unless the return is a proven PG like Parker who fits the timeline better than Miller.
Camby could start alongside Oden and do well. I’d try hard to get DeJuan Blair in that hypothetical LMA-Parker deal
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Bayless? PG? Still? Hahaha
Right now he’s a backup 2 guard at best. He’ll never be a Stephon Curry. If he was 6’6" the thought of ever playing him at the 1 in this league would have never existed. But he’s only 6’3" so we have to put in somewhere, right? :p. Moving along…
LMA seems to be about 3-5 years behind Roy when it comes to maturity. With that said – I’d like for us to still through his growing pains & not trade him as I see him being a beast in 3-5 years time. If Greg gets/stays healthy that’ll be an added to bonus to LMA – those two could compliment each other perfectly.
Mills needs a chance – unlike the Bayless experiment, the Patty Mills experiment never started. I think he could be a legit backup point in this league.
Andre? Love him but I think we all know he only has one more year left on this roster. Besides, he hurts a lot of Trailblazer fans’ feelings by not being the squishy, endearing soul that Greg Oden is.
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
Sadly you are correct in your description of Oden
Even healthy he doesn’t have the confidence or character to put the oppositionon the butts.
Nate McMillan will always be who he is regarding his demand of a low-turnover approach to the game. So ...
yeah, anyone who expects McMillan to change his style also likely believes that pyrite is gold. Anyhow, here’s an earlier comment of mine in which I explain the biggest difference between McMillan and one of his old coaches, George Karl, when it comes to coaching point guards.
“Also, a gigantic difference between George Karl and Nate McMillan is how they manage point guards. Karl wants a floor general who can essentially be an offensive coordinator on the floor (e.g., Gary Payton, Sam Cassell, Andre Miller, Chauncey Billups, et al.) — which is why him and Allen Iverson were a terrible fit, since A.I. lacked the BBIQ to facilitate an offense without a strict head coach (e.g., Larry Brown) riding him — yet, on the other hand, McMillan loves floor spreading off guards who are low usage, passive, and careful with the rock.”
http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/5/29/1492921/lets-be-realistic-about-nate#39379206
All things considered, McMillan is a micromanger who’s set in his ways. That’s an inherent part of McMillan’s personality, too, and the likelihood of him altering his ways is next to nil. Oh, and if McMillan ever had a talented playmaker like Steve Nash as his point guard, “Sarge” would get fired quicker than Terry Porter did in the same situation.
I suggest OJ Mayo
I would love to see Bayless, Fernandez and a #1 for OJ Mayo and a #2.
Mayo in my opinion would give us a unique backcourt that would be very difficult to stop. Mayo is a very good defender, has long arms, plays off the post well, can REALLY shoot, and played PG quite a bit his rookie season and in college. Some will say that he isnt quick enough to guard some of the PGs, I think he moves his feet well enough to stay in front and can always switch to guarding the SG, send Roy to SF and let Nic guard the PG. While he is not a traditional point guard, he and Brandon could split the ball handling duties 50/50. While I don’t know that Memphis would even consider trading him, it would in my opinion be one of the best moves we could make for the long term. It would make us tough, balanced and BIG.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 10, 2010 3:23 PM PDT reply actions
I'm not a fan of O.J. Mayo, but his trade value has got to be much, much higher than that pitiful return. I ...
assume if the Memphis Grizzlies trade Mayo, he’ll most likely be moved as part of a reported package with Hasheem Thabeet and salary filler (e.g., Lester Hudson) for an overrated — yet still highly valued player in the circles of incompetent GMs — chucker like Monta Ellis. Now, I recognize that the Golden State Warriors reportedly rejected that trade this past season; however, I could see both sides working out an agreement along those parameters this summer.
Back to Mayo, though, as I dislike him due to his poor passing numbers for a supposed combo guard, lack of effort on the glass for even a perimeter player, and terrible defensive +/- numbers thse past two seasons.
I realize that it may not be enough to entice Mayo
but seeing as how he is on a rookie salary and they dont have much in the way of bad contracts its difficult to make a move for him otherwise.
I cant defend his +/- on D, but from the eye test he plays pretty decent defense and his D is mentioned a bit. His passing numbers DO need work but at the same time, he isnt being asked to be a facilitator. His rebounding while poor isnt a huge factor for this team as long as Oden is healthy. I dont think you need much rebounding out of the PG position and frankly he should increase his numbers solely due to the fact he will be boxing out people a lot smaller than him.
Just my 2 cents
OJ Mayo is the Blazers' PG of the Future
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 10, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
also one mans garbage is another mans gold
they might REALLY like Fernandez and Bayless. Even if WE know better
OJ Mayo is the Blazers' PG of the Future
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 10, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
apparently people around the league still love Rudy as a starter
OJ Mayo is the Blazers' PG of the Future
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jun 11, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Speaking of PG's
was anyone fascinated by Rondo’s performance in the last game against the Lakers? He reminds me very much of Dre. Extremely crafty around the basket, but can’t shoot a jumpshot to save his life. (Or a free throw for that matter.) In someways he was rendered ineffective on a night when Pierce and Allen were sucking on their jumpers.
In someways he was rendered ineffective on a night when Pierce and Allen were sucking on their jumpers.
In the same way, Roy, Batum and LMA will need to be the floor spreaders for Andre, if the RAMBO halfcourt offense is going to be consistently effective
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
It would be more accurate to say how Nate wishes he played ...
Last season I remember Andre Miller commenting that Nate wanted to point guard position to have zero turnovers (probably a slight exaggeration). To me that means that Mills, Sergio, and even Steve Nash will (would) never work out in Nate’s high efficiency offense. What point guards in the league play the same way as Nate played?
If you sort for low usage, at least 20min a game, high TOV%, Nate’s name is all over the list:
Note: I’m a noob at posting links here, hope it works. He has 3 of the worst 15 seasons and 6 of the worst 70 with regards to high TOV%, low usage and minimum minutes played.
One could say, Nate has experience, and may even be an expert, when it comes to turnovers....
Looks like he has shut himself and all of his players inside his own personal closet….the skeletons being high turnover %. It’s one thing to have shortcomings, but to deny your players the same opportunities to turn the ball over should raise some flags Passive-aggressive behavior, sometimes synonymous with stubbornness…The warning signs are there, lets get him some help.
It's too late to get Nate McMillan help, for the only remedy at this point is a career change for him.
McMillan lacks the intelligence, basketball acumen, and personality traits needed to be a head coach.
He's not a Pop
But who is?
He’s obv not the best coach out there. Which would imply he’s not as intelligent as, say, Pop. However, I don’t think it’s fair to say he lacks attributes to be HC when he’s gotten the W’s he has with Portland. I’m not convinced he can’t be the coach of a championship team.
Re: Intelligence
Someone must be behind the vision of low pace, high efficiency, low turnover rate and it does seem to be one way to compete / win. Increasing PPP is a good thing, but the correlation to rate isn’t as clear. Most likely Nate doesn’t feel TOV can be controlled with a high pace.
Re: Basketball acumen
I’m not entirely sure what you mean?
Re: personality
He seemed exactly right getting the donkey’s out of the early line-ups he had. Lately, he does seem to have not had positive relationships with:
- Miller
- Frye
- Fernandez
Nate
= passive-aggressive behavior (too stubborn to adjust and set in his ways enough to do more harm than good) He has a style that is all his own, and consequently not always best for the entire team. Fortunately for him, Roy is a mirror of his play style and might be the only reason this team can compete.
If I were to rate Nate on a 1-5 scale, he would be a 3. But this has to be a curved scale of sorts, because there are so few 5 star coaches. The 5 stars are the only ones that should dictate team identity…all others should let the players do it. Even the five star coaches let the players play…this is just basketball wisdom. (you can be the best coach in the league, but without good players you don’t win) Best utilizing the talent you have is one of the most valuable attributes a coach can have…Examples would be Rivers, Gentry, Adelman, ..these guys, although not great tacticians, would get 4 stars on the curve, because they get the most out of the players they have. The full restraint coaches like Schuler, Carlesimo,Jeff Van Gundy, etc. usually don’t survive in the NBA.
Nate is probably considered to be in the top ten in NBA, but I rate him lower because I think his style of play limits his players instinctive skills too much and also slows the game down so much that defenses are always set before we get into our offense….it is just plain stupid to not take advantage of a transition offense that could get you some easy hoops and also reserve some energy for defense.
Why was Roy so poor on defense last season? Well you could mention injuries. But the real reason was likely do to the fact that he spent so much energy on the iso and other difficult half-court offensive actions, he was too expended to do a good job on defense. Injuries can be a product of fatigue as well.
I’ll admit, I have a sentimental bias on the type of play I enjoy watching and because of that I will tend to reject his coaching style…Nothing personal because I think Nate is otherwise a fine human being and a compliment to society. I really think he would be a good assistant coach, but as a head coach he has always left me wanting…..
all this said…I believe the Blazers have “entrenched” Nate as our coach and probably feel he will be the guy..At some point this could change, but probably not any time soon. His yearly evaluation will put all the pressure on the organization and keep Nate’s options more open for other NBA coaching jobs.
Even if there was a more qualified coach out there, or one that could make a difference, I’m not sure this organization would be able to recognize it or know when the time has come. The only way Nate loses his job is, continued mediocrity or backwards progress.

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