What do Mike Woodson, Mike Brown, and Nate McMillan all have in common?
by AtlBlzr on May 18, 2010 8:02 AM PDT
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Hey Blazer fans, I am writing this on behalf of my Dad who has been telling me all year that the ISO play does not work in the NBA. I have always agreed with that statement and after watching it run all year by the Blazers and then in the Playoffs I am ready to boldy announce what he has been saying since last year: The ISO play does not work in the NBA! There are times to run it sure, but for long term success it does not work.
Before the Playoff's started my Dad and I were talking about the 3 teams that run the ISO consistantly, the Hawks, Cavs, and Blazers. He said. "we'll see how far they get with the ISO". I told him I thought we would run nore than just the ISO in the Playoffs. I was right-partially. However, I think that game 6 is a microcausm for the Blazers series with Phoenix. We seem to play so much better without the ISO in the game. In fact we actually tied up the game at one point without ISO. We actually came back by moving the ball, around screens around double and finding the open guy, then the second the game is tied Nate brings in Brandon, the ISO and the slowdown and offense stalls and we get taken apart the last 7 minutes. I know that is harsh but it is basically what happened.
MY whole point here is that All 3 teams went down in this years playoff's to better TEAMS. The ISO actually destroys team basketball which is why it is so odd that the Blazers run such an offense.
My other point is that Mike Woodson has been fired, Mike Brown is essentially on his way out (last year's COY) and Nate is in the hotseat wondering how he can get out of the second round. Well with 1 all-star, 3 potential all-stars, 2 savvy veterans playing at the top of their game, and 4 players who have shown starting potential and brilliance, how can you even begin to think about running the offense around one guy? If it didn't work for Brown and LeBron it will not work for Nate and Roy.
I think that Nates record stands on its own so far but what he has not shown is his ability to develop a cohesive team out there. The way we came in to the season this year was ridiculous. We need to get the rotations established in the preseason (can you imagine a Phil Jackson or Popp coached team where the primary players did not know their roles?). We need to consistantly find Greg and Lamarcus. We need to have guys within easy kick out distance when a player gets doubled. Lastly, how many times have you seen Roy or LaMarcus get the ball and not have a cutter anywhere near them, not behind or to the side. How can they get the ball out effectively when they get doubled? You hardly ever see that with the teams that advance consistantly. Also maybe try a real pick and roll with LMA and Roy or Miller.
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unfortunately no
"Good, Better, Best, never let it rest until your good is your better and your better is your best." Tim Duncan
I also fear not
It’s too easy for Nate to rationalize that his offense would have worked great with a healthy roster.
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
Really? I hope that Nate is not that stupid. He must watch the playoffs and HEAR
what the announcers point out…in addition to watching what is going on in the game!!!
I think that Nate is slow to learn but he does eventually pick up on things…stubborn.
He may notice that Woodson and Brown are fired.
So hopefully, he will change the offense that the Blazers use.
Here’s hoping.
by Natsthecat on May 19, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with that
I think Nate might actually be the smartest/best of the three iso-coaches. Maybe I’m just a homer…
Oh... absolutely agreed! I think that's why he'll be coaching next year.
I just hope he sees the writing on the wall and uses the beginning of the season to push the tempo and to get the team together so that way when they are in midseason form they look like the Blazers a year or so ago that were blowing teams out by 20 points, with that free flowing offense.
He may be wondering how to get outta the 2nd round...
….and Nate is in the hotseat wondering how he can get out of the second round.
…but Nate isn’t on the “hotseat” …maybe next year but not this year
….then the second the game is tied Nate brings in Brandon, the ISO and the slowdown and offense stalls….
His injury has no bearing on it? It was all the stategy?
Phil Mickelson: "A Great shot is when you pull it off.....a smart shot is when you don't have the guts to try it"’
Well
I wish nate was on the hot seat. He needs to change and a little coal under his seat might help him do it.
And Brandon’s injury is exactly why the ISO looked so horrible in the playoffs, a healthy Roy can destroy the Suns even with the ISO offense, (see: Roy, 52 points). His injury made Hill and Dudley look like all-nba defenders when they are far from it, as Kobe showed last night.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
I agree to an extent about the injury.
But clearly Brandon is not better than LeBron. LeBron’s team is out too. Out coached and out played by a better “Team”. I said the hotseat because Nate has one more year. So yeah… I do think that Nate has a year though and do really hope he can adjust his style and not be as unflexible.
if nate is back
we will have the same offense…
These problems were obvious at the end of 08 and 09 and were not corrected this year
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
yup
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
so, we have seen enough.... as in "enough already"
If only PA would agree.
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
I agree that the iso-offense needs to go
what I am saying is that with a Healthy Roy, they Blazers win that series against the Suns, even with the iso offense, because the Suns are just not a very good defensive team, and they are a horrible end game execution team. Roy being fulling healthy keeps Portland in the games in phx giving them a good chance to pull out a win. Without Roy, no one else could fill that roll in the iso-offense consistantly. Miller and Bayless both tried their best, but they are not Roy.
Roy would have avg close to 30ppg against the Suns if he was healthy, he consistantly destroyed them when he has played against them over his career.
Now against a better defensive team like the Spurs, (although they seem to run out of gas in the 2nd round) or the Lakers, it would not have worked and the Blazers would have lost.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
whatever happened to our other thread of conversation???
it just dissappeared
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
Ball movement. That's all.
One thing I have learned about Nate is that he uses tactics he is comfortable with. All of his teams have looked pretty similar up to this point, including those Seattle teams. He likes a slow, methodical offense that relies on jumpshots to stretch the defense and soften the middle. He tries to exploit 1-1 advantages in ISO sets. He prefers high-percentage / low – risk plays than going for the home run. He tries to have a free flowing defense that switches on every screen seamlessly. He follows the substitution patterns strictly.
I don’t expect to see a lot of change from this next year.
"What people need to know is that those pictures were taken a year and a half ago, and I've grown since then." - Greg Oden
yeah
the Suns exposed the switching D to get whatever matchup they wanted…..I am sure that when the adjustments come 8-10 qtrs later the opposing coach is going jumping up and down in joy.
Blazer Pride.
by loyal_blazer on May 18, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Both of those other guys got farther than Nate
this year and last year, yet he is the one who is the furthest from being replaced. I don’t get it. The Suns did not have Robin Lopez and killed us by 20-30 pts multiple times. It looked like HS vs. college out there. I see a lot of hesitation in almost all of our players— they looked like they did not know what the hell they were supposed to do all season.
The playoffs are about making many quick adjustments to defeat whatever team is in front of you, game to game. Nate seems to falter and breakdown after adjustment 1.5 oh and that comes 2 games late. If you are already using the least effective strategy on offense and the horse that makes it all run properly is at 50%, you adjust. Did we see that? Did we see adjustments last year in the playoffs?
Nate is so busy squeezing the orange he doesnt see theres a whole tree to tend and harvest.
Win in spite of Nate, lose because of.
Blazer Pride.
I see a lot of hesitation in almost all of our players— they looked like they did not know what the hell they were supposed to do all season.
I think this is at least partly because of all the injuries forcing the blazers to use different rotations. Our units never got a large chunk of the season to work together and become familiar with each others’ play styles. This is probably especially important when bringing so many new faces onto the team too.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
Does that explain last year? They all looked just as hesitent to step up and show their games last year as well.
Except BROY
Blazer Pride.
by loyal_blazer on May 18, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
very true
last year the team started to really mesh well in the final quarter of the season but till couldn’t score in the playoffs. I’m willing to chalk up some of last post-season’s poor offensive play to first time jitters. I’m just saying that Nate isn’t the SOLE reason for the struggles on the offensive end, and I think that with more time to gel the team can, like you said, win in spite of nate.
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
You must have been watching a different blazer team than I was.
Portland did not look like a hesitant team the second half of the 08 – 09 season. Far from it. They looked like a team that was finally getting comfortable with themselves and confident in their ability to beat anybody.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Don't think I was.
The last quarter of last season, Nate let them run. They closed out the season with a great record. It was working pretty well, so, Nate much like a player with a hot hand, Nate sent that plan to the bench for the playoffs. The results of his coaching strategy were not much different from last year to this year.
The thing is, everyone gave Nate credit last year for starting to run THAT late in the season. I don’t understand why he didnt TRY this earlier in the season. It takes 65 games to try running with your young athletic team? This causes the Blazers to go into a tie and draw the Rockets. I cant imagine if he tried running after 30 games what their record would have been. They were in a 3 way tie for 2nd….I think its safe to say they would have gotten at least 1 more win to take sole control of 2nd place. Winning in spite of, losing because of.
Blazer Pride.
by loyal_blazer on May 18, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I've never played in the NBA, so this is supposition:
I think the perception that Nate didn’t “turn them loose” to run is wrong. It was never a case of being turned loose. The operating principle was to play hard, well executed basketball. Turnovers are not a sign of well executed basketball. Additionally, a running game is not incompatible with well executed, high percentage basketball. You can have a faced paced running team and not make a lot of turnovers. But to do so you have to know what you are doing and be able to do it without having to think about it. I believe a significant factor in being able to do that is being comfortable with your teammates, knowing their tendencies and having the confidence and trust, both in them and yourself.
The more you have that as a team, the easier it is to make the instance decisions that are needed to push the pace without increasing the risk of turning the ball over. This is what I believe we saw at the end of last season.
I guess there is one school of thought that says “Let the team run and don’t worry about the turnovers. With time, the team will learn to not make them.” I don’t believe in that viewpoint. Bad habits become ingrained and it is far more difficult to untrain a person than it is to teach them how do it right from the start. That seems to be Nate’s approach. And lets not forget that he has had to coach a team where – before this season – everyone was young and just learning. He didn’t have the luxury of veteran players who already could do this.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
my thoughts exactly
at least we don’t have Nellie or D’antoni on the bench.
Nate also benches guys who take a certain amount of risk
so that will inhibit running. Yelling at the team to run, as he has done, and then benching someone for a turnover, which he has done, sends the message to a player that I better not turn the ball over. Coach yells run, but he will bench if I make a mistake, I want playing timeI will walk it up.
On your last point, our offense had the same problems as last year and the year before even with the addition of veteran players. the big difference this year was we did not have Travis to shoot without thinking when the team was in a slump during the game.
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
Nobody seems to be considering
The use of ISO plays for clock management. It’s really the only play if you really want to control the tempo, which is part of Nate’s strategy.
Your dad is Dwight Jaynes?
Just kidding, he only had the same comments on his blog. And I agree, it’s at least something to think through. In the playoffs once the speed slows down, the other team focuses all scouting and game-planning efforts on just you, and defenders play extra hard, iso offenses don’t fly very well even with some of the most talented players.
I'm probably a total noob but what exactly is wrong with isos?
I’ve heard d.jaynes and a bunch of other guys talk about the iso offense era being over. I’ve always thought the iso offense is something that can be run as many times you want to. Plus, when you have B.Roy, a guy who can flat our score, make the right pass if needed, why not?
In my opinion, the main reason the cavs lost is because they didn’t take advantage of mismatches they had. If I were the coach, I would’ve used Shaq much more. Neither Perkins, wallace, or Davis could match up with Shaq. They had terrible spacing too.
And Atlanta…they were always a bit overrated. Their bigs are undersized. Horford plays out of position at C. I actually credit woodson for hiding their defeciency for as long as they did. The hawks main problem was not their offense but defense.
Go Blazers!
when you spend a season going to one guy exclusively on so many plays
the rest of the team does not develop rhythm or chemistry. plus it gets pretty predivtable and playoff defenses can take the main ISO guy out to an extent ala Lebron in that Celtics disaster, i mean series…
Sure the scorer will get his more often than not, but the rest of the team folds under playoff pressure because they often get put into situations they did not confront during the season.
That is the base theory anyway.
I was watching that game 6 saying dump the ball to Shaq, dump the ball to shaq…he came to play that game and they still barely got him the ball. But that is what happens when you rely on only one guy so much, the rest of the team does not know to react when the pressure is on…
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
by PDXBuckeye on May 18, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or maybe the rest of the team isn't good enough?
Sometimes it just comes down to the team not being very good around the star player. To me, this is Portland in pressure situations. Rudy, LMA, Bayless aren’t guys you want taking shots down the stretch of games – even if they are wide open.
Could be...
But you’re right we need to surround Roy with players that fulfill their roles to the tee. We need some bruce Bowens, Sean elliots, robert horrys, steve kerrs, kendrick perkins, to just do what they are supposed to do. Who knows? maybe rudy, lma and bayless will turn into those guys. I thought bayless did a fine job this post season. He played good D and provided an offensive spark when we needed. Role fulfilled. Rudy….not so much. He was supposed to be our primary wing scorer. Fail. Then primary bench scorer. fail. I still think Rudy can be a very good player in this league but maybe not the sixth man the Blazers envision him as.
Go Blazers!
how many passes down to the post are there in the last 6 minutes of any game?
rare occurence when it runs through Roy only…
The guys around them are talented, but there was cofusion all around the roster all season long, injuries played a part, but Webster nearly falling out of the rotation affected his play, varying minutes affected rudy’s play, a slew of guys were jerked around a lot in terms of role and playing time, it is hard for them to get settled in their role in those conditions. mechanical rotations for non-stars don’t help…
Batum could score 8 of our first 10 points and he would still get subbed at the 6:00 mark in the first and often not see court time until the 2nd half…stuff like that….
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
Confusion summed up for me...
How can “mechanical rotations” lead to guys being jerked around with playing time? I don’t see how those things can both be happening at the same time. Aren’t the “non-stars” the slew of guys whose minutes varied and they couldn’t settle into a role? Honest question…
I have seen both of these arguments made and still don’t see how they both are happening at the same time. Nate is too predictable with rotations. Nate does not give guys consistent minutes to get into a groove.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
having a rotation plan is one thing
but when you get a hot hand going, stick with them, Nate NEVER does that. Players are trained their entire life that being pulled from a game is a bad thing, you are not giving the coach what he is looking for, unless your are drop dead tired and really could use the break. Batum sitting at the 6 minute mark in the first, no matter how well his shot is going down is just a bad move, ride him until the D starts stopping him or he starts to cool off. btum is the easiest example of this happening to.
The other thing that happens is something I speciafically tracked in one game a while back: who was benched and when. 5 consecutive players pulled from the game on a night our offense was visibly struggling the last guy to make a shot was the next guy on the bench. It was crazy. The play by play essentially read Roy makes 2 point shot – Fernandez in for Roy, Bayless makes 2 point shot – Webster in for bayless, Batum makes 2 point shot – Cunningham in for Batum///there were missed shots and turnovers in between made baskets but over that period of time, if you made a hoop you were the next guy out.
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
Oh man, I thought I was the only one who noticed this!
It was one of the most infuriating things! I’ve seen this pattern for the last 2 years. Usually a guy will make about 2 shots, and then he gets called to the bench, maybe in the middle of the quarter. It’s like Nate’s saying, “Good job, now take a breather.” I’m guessing it was a habit developed because Mac didn’t know how to handle the depth issue. Which is weird because you’d think he should do the opposite, which is pull the guy that’s struggling instead.
LA really made the Sun's D look bad last night
Derek Fisher abused Nash on multiple plays that I saw. Really exposed him. Is Pau that much better than Lamarcus? Of course it does not hurt when your superstar is going off for 40.
by LicketyBrindleDowntheMiddle on May 18, 2010 11:33 AM PDT reply actions
Guys like Pau and KG
have spent so many years being the #1 option on teams. They’ve had to learn to pass, rebound, defend and do everything cause their teams needed that from them. they’ve been through the fire. Now they’re both in a situation where they are only the second or third options on their respective teams. this is cake for them.
Lamarcus is getting there but he’s never had to go through seasons and seasons of literally carrying a team in doing everything. This postseason was good for him cause he had to carry the team. Was he great? No but I think it made him a better player. It will make him that much more of a deadly third option behind Greg and brandon. And for a guy who want to be a great player; what doesn’t kill him only makes him stronger.
Go Blazers!
Lol....sorry...but I heard this line on a sit-com last night
what doesn’t kill him only makes him stronger.
in which the other character noted: “You must be the Hulk by now”
Phil Mickelson: "A Great shot is when you pull it off.....a smart shot is when you don't have the guts to try it"’
by 92wastheyear on May 18, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
lol. that's funny.
Gotta remember that line..
Go Blazers!
Pau makes LaMarcus' game look so limited.
He’s a pretty good defender (I think better than Aldridge actually), he’s got more offensive moves and he rebounds better. Really, as I watched the Lakers, I was thinking, wow, if only LaMarcus could give us some of that!
pau is
one of the most talented big men ever. He’s amazing
Ever? maybe
I do not know though, there are a lot of lot of guys that would go ahead of him in my book.
Don’t get me wrong, as much as I hate the L*kers, I love his game, but…
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
I would love an offense that encourages ball movement and is not dependent on Roy going for 20+ points by himself
We have guys who can score. But a lot of times they are seemingly waiting for the kickout in the corner.
by collectiveshane on May 18, 2010 11:48 AM PDT reply actions
And Roy is better at it than all of them
We have guys who can score
He should get the most shots
Phil Mickelson: "A Great shot is when you pull it off.....a smart shot is when you don't have the guts to try it"’
by 92wastheyear on May 18, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
he should
i do not think anyone is arguing that point. Offensive design is the core issue. How do you find the balance between featuring Roy and exploiting the talents of the guys around him. I would argue right now our offense is out of balance in general terms playing too far toward brandon’s strengths while not effectively capitalizing on the abilities of his team mates.
This is where I gotta give Kobe props, his game has transformed over the years to fit the talent on the floor around him. I am not saying Brandon needs to morph his game like Kobe has, but there needs to be some adjusting in style to take us to the next level.
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
In addition to better team shooting percentages
Odom would be rebounding like a madman, Shannon Brown would be showing off his athleticism, Artest would show the world why he is more than just a defensive specialist, Bynum would score close to 20 a game, and Pau would do what Pau does…only more of it.
They’ve proven they don’t need him in the regular season. Now, the playoffs are a different animal, and they might not do as well without him there.
But I get your point. Better question to ask is “where were we without Brandon’s 25 a night?”
thanks for backing me up, son
But really, if you were listening, I have been saying this for 3 years now. I don’t get why it took you so long to trust in what I have been saying. I realize I passed you the ball when there wasn’t a clear path to the hoop, but now you are older and wiser and have some historical data that lends some support to the theory.
PS. the sooner Nate and Co. figure out it’s a team game and that your only as good as the sum of all of it’s parts, the sooner we can celebrate in Portland
Hmmm
I don’t think Greg looks too concerned by that Anthony Carter double. He’s probably looking under the basket to a wide open cutter with a nice field of vision.
That Roy double though…kinda hard to spot the open man in the middle of a jersey.
I guess I should add something more.
It really depends on what iso situation is created. Was Shaq in the post (in his prime) really unsustainable? There are situations where you can effectively isolate a player, the key is isolating (ie removing help defenders) because as those pictures demonstrate that extra defender causes problems when the ball gets stopped.
What doesn’t work is the key player catching the ball around the top of the 3pt arc, then surveying for a few seconds before trying to break his man down. Especially in 1-4 situations and/or when everyone starts just watching and spotting up.
In Channning Frye´s words, starting at 6:00
by amlmart1 on May 18, 2010 2:03 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
really spells it out.
this should be a post.
"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.
wow, serious rec
from a player in a position to know and be able to speak freely. A few rough quotes:
they need to establish what type of team they are, i think you have two different teams you have slow guys who like to play a slow paced game, and then you have guys who really thrive in a running game…. you guys would be an awesome running team .. its just a matter is that the style that coach McMillan can coach… the Blazers have so many offensive weapons… its never like just a flow, this is what the defense gives us… it’s amazing nobody has said we are going to run and give everybody a chance to be a threat out there
Many of us have felt this, this just makes the conviciton stronger for me….
"You be realistic," Oden said. "I’m going to stay happy. All right?"
No No No....
let’s run all the players out of here before Nate.
Blazer Pride.
by loyal_blazer on May 18, 2010 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions
that's the essence of it.
Resiliency. Playoff defenses are going to box you in to a corner. The adage “you are only as strong as your weakest link” applies here. Because the teams that will succeed are the ones that can adapt on the fly. And this is what makes a great coach. Creating a system that will encourage the players to find the answers themselves, together. Bend, not break.
Too much control on PTB. Not enough trust. Channing’s interview is verification of what I have suspected has been going on.
"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.
Except when you play a team that plays good defense.
Didn’t mean to let that slip. sorry channing.
Go Blazers!
lamar odom
19 points 19 rebounds. Channing… not so much. Too bad the blazers werent healthy against the suns.
Teams with talent win; teams that lack it don't
ISO offense, triangle offense, motion offense: all mean nothing without talent. The Bulls ran an ISO offense with MJ – triangle schmiangle. MJ won games for them down the stretch (that and they played without a point guard but with long guards in Harper and MJ along with Pippen or with dead-eye shooters in Paxson, Kerr, and Hodges surrounding MJ).
The Lakers win with Kobe ISO offense but they have the “triangle” offense which I don’t see in operation except when Kobe decides others are allowed to score.
The Spurs ran an ISO offense around Duncan to win titles and it worked because Duncan was a great post passer.
The Rockets ran an ISO offense around Hakeem to win titles and it worked because MJ was playing baseball!
The thing all these teams have that Cleveland, Atlanta, and Portland don’t have is a true all-star caliber supporting player and clutch shooters. None of them have a true point (Parker, Kenny Smith, Derek Fisher, Ron Harper, Steve Kerr, John Paxson were all 2 guards in my opinion playing the point).
The offense was initiated though their best player when it mattered. This is what Portland does.
Where Portland differs from championship teams is there is no Pau, no Ginobli, no Parker, no Clyde Drexler, no Pippen to be that all star caliber second fiddle who can deliver in pressure games when teams take the ball out of Roy’s hands.
Plain and simple, until Portland comes up with a true second option (maybe Oden? or Aldridge?) that can deliver in crunch time and money time, it doesn’t matter what offense they run. This team cannot run with Phoenix (the butt-kickings Phoenix handed them proved that conclusively to me) so I believe Nate is correct in keeping the pace slow for this team. And 2008-2009 proved that when there is no pressure, the supporting cast can deliver offensively in Nate’s offensive system which was proven by the fact they were in the top few teams in offensive efficiency.
Bottom line to me is this team doesn’t have the horses to win a title. Teams know to just not let Roy beat them because Rudy, LMA, Miller can’t hit shots when it counts. Until someone else mans up or Miller learns how to shoot, this team will struggle in the playoffs.
by jcuw94 on May 18, 2010 6:10 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Completely agree.
Its about all about the talent and execution.
Go Blazers!
I really think roy will end up being the second fiddle to oden.
When we think of roy as the first option, roy is pretty good. when we think of him as the second option, roy becomes almost invincible. He can shoot, create his own shot, pass, and defend with the best of them. That’s one hell of a second fiddle.
How can Oden be the first fiddle? He already has some moves in the post. Limited amount of moves for now but effective. Combine that with the fact that he is probably the strongest guy in the nba outside of shaq, got very long arms, very athletic even after the injury, and has very fluid movement for his size. He is also a good and willing passer out of the double team, an excellent free throw shooter with a soft touch when he gets fouled. Oden’s going to be an offensive monster. And, oh yeah, the league is screaming for just a good center, let alone a dominant center.
Go Blazers!
Either way
Doesn’t really matter which one it is that’s # 1 or 2, so long as we know who it is when the time comes and the team can play like it. Look at Orlando. At times early in the season, it was VC. Then it was Dwight. Then the series against the Cats came, and it was Nelson. Of course, now they’re getting beat by a team that is transitioning from Pierce being #1 to Rondo. One game it’s Paul, another Ray, another Rondo, sometimes KG even.
On the flipside, a team we really look like is the Mavs, or the Hornets a few years ago
We have our Dirk/Paul in Brandon, but then what?
This is a fascinating discussion that has been going on for at least a couple years...
My favorite part about it is that last year, Dwight Jaynes (who is at least the guy with the most access to fans’ ears, who has been saying this the loudest) had a blog post on how great Portland could be because they will have Greg in the middle with shooters all around him, in the tradition of the Houston teams of the mid 90s and Orlando’s current mix around Howard. In one year, this concept becomes idiotic??
I know at this point it is purely an imaginary concept because of Oden’s injuries (and everybody else’s), but I do think it isn’t completely out of the realm of possibility. Oden, Aldridge, Roy – surrounded by shooters (Batum, Rudy, Bayless, Webster) with some role players, (Camby, Miller, Cunningham) could be a very good team. Injuries killed this season…not the iso offense.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Until Brandon and the rest (other than Miller) learn to find Oden and give him the ball in the right position it won't work.
Oden hardly ever got the ball in right positon from Brandon this year, rearely from LaMarcus and rarely from Blake. Miller and Fernandez found him consistantly. (Sergio did last year) When you give Greg the ball out of position it is not going to be productive.
This is clear if you watch the first 15 games or so. Finally they started to mesh, and to your point the offense began to click a bit.
If Nate doesn’t bring this this team into the regular season ready to play again this year. Then I think it says a lot about Nate and where our next major free agent pick up begins.
(BTW… I don’t think that they need to be in mid season form, but it shouldn’t take you 20 games to begin to look like you’ve been practicing together).
It doesn't matter how you start, it's how you finish
It really matters very little if they look great at the beginning. It only matters if they are peaking heading into the playoffs. They need to be healthy and need to have developed a consistent 2nd option. This team right now has 1 consistent offensive weapon and that’s a healthy Roy.
I don’t know if Oden will be that guy. He has a very, very limited offensive arsenal. He isn’t going to remind anyone of Kevin Mchale anytime soon and without a jumper or a turnaround, I’m just not seeing it. Good defensive teams won’t have too much difficulty in a 7 gamer with Portland if Oden is their second best offensive option next season (a la the Celtics against the Magic this season). Like Howard is finding out, you just can’t dunk on everyone. Good defensive teams find that easy to slow down unless you’re as big as Shaq was in his prime.
I think Oden can be a force on the defensive side of the ball and you can run a play for him here and there on offense. But ultimately, this team probably needs LMA to man up and learn how to not pucker up in big situations or there will be no advancing in the playoffs in the next few years.
For the record with the Jaynes comment
Here is the link.
I just think it is funny how we all want to be the first to see the future and hype the next great offense or declare the last one dead. This year the future of the NBA is a “flex” offense.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
You said "Until they learn".
Just what is your expectation on how they should be doing it? Immediately by osmosis?
You don’t just learn something over night. It’s made more difficult when everyone is starting at the same basic level. You lack the experienced guys who can help tutor.
But too many fans here seem unwilling to allow for a learning curve much beyond two weeks, or they say Nate should have made this happen in training camp. I would think that realistic time frame would be closer to an entire season. And that’s being optimistic. Yet we were seeing complaints and criticisms before the month of November was out.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
I think the thought behind the learning curve is that they should understand what the team concept is by now.
The thought is that Brandon and LaMarcus were going into their 4th year, Greg into his 3rd year; Rudy, Bayless and Batum into their 2nd and we were bringing in 2 NBA professional veterans in Andre Miller and Juwan Howard. So basically returning an entire team. Honestly, if you don’t know how to play with the team with 2-3 years of experienceon that team, then that’s on the coach. In college those guys are expected to have it down by mid season of their first year. Just ask coach Cal ;-)
Also, the idea that they're "learning" is that they'd at least try to give it to Oden.
I mean, I can understand that it’s not an overnight process, but the guys rarely tried or attempted. If it’s a play that Nate drew up and the guys can’t execute yet, I would think I would see some TO’s and botched attempts regardless. But instead, it’s like they never really bother.
Greg will force the offense to change.
I hope Nate sees it and decides to roll with the change earlier rather than later…but a healthy Greg Oden will totally change what our offense looks like.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I would say should change
the coach has to make that happen, if the perimeter guys do not pass the ball down to the post nothing will change except our rebounding stats.
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
by PDXBuckeye on May 20, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
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