Cunningham vs. Bass
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 7, 2010 12:44 PM PST
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Brandon Bass has been a mainstay on Blazer fan wish lists over the past few seasons - and for good reason. Not especially tall, but strong and quick - Bass has a reputation as a high-energy bench player that can rebound, play some defense and make an offensive contribution with hustle plays and a decent outside shot - all at a position of need for the Blazers - Backup PF.
Bass is in his 5th year in the league, but it turns out we have a rookie aka Dante Cunningham that brings everything to the table that Bass does...
First - the Physical:
- Bass: 6'8 250 lbs
- Cunningham: 6'8 230 lbs
Bass comes in a little heavier, but they have remarkable similarities physically. Both are physical specimens and ripped. They are strong, quick and have good hops. Bass has a few extra years of muscle built into his shoulders. However, it was the physical similarities I noticed just now while watching the Lakers @ Orlando that prompted me to research this comparison in the first place. Relying on 82games.com because I don't have Synergy resources, I found some more interesting similarities and positive comparisons favoring Cunningham:
Peripheral Stats (read order Bass 1st; Cunningham 2nd):
Bass and Cunningham draw fouls at a similar rate (10.4 vs. 10.3%) and have similar passing ratings (1.1 vs. 1.4) and block ratings (4.9 vs. 5.3). Interestingly, Cunningham starts to pull away from Bass in terms of rebounding (player rating 19.2 vs. 24.6) based on 2009/2010 stats, so I went back to 2008/2009 for Bass to get numbers that reflected more of his potential contributions (2009/10 hasn't been a great season for Bass' minutes). However - Cunningham still compares favorably to Bass as a rebounder - even using Bass' much better 2008/2009 stats (24.8 vs. 24.6). Cunningham also has a better 'hands rating' (9.2 vs. 11.3) that is even more dramatic if you consider Bass' 2008/2009 stats (5.2 hands rating to go with a 0.3 passing rating).
Shooting Tendencies:
For context, Bass' and Cunningham's raw stats are remarkably similar this season (and for Bass' career):
Using Bass' career stats: 48.8% shooting vs. 49.9% (Bass is at 50% this season) leading to a 6.7 ppg career average vs. 4.1 ppg.
How these guys get their points is also an interesting comparison:
Bass Scoring by Game (2009/2010):
Scoring
| By | FG. | FGA | FG% | eFG% | Ast'd | Blk'd | FTM | Pts |
| Game | 2.4 | 4.8 | .500 | .500 | 46% | 7% | 0.9 | 5.7 |
Dante:
Scoring
| By | FG. | FGA | FG% | eFG% | Ast'd | Blk'd | FTM | Pts |
| Game | 1.8 | 3.7 | .492 | .492 | 86% | 4% | 0.5 | 4.1 |
and the details:
Bass
Shooting Details
Shot selection
|
Shot clock usage
|
Dante
Shooting Details
Shot selection
|
Shot clock usage
|
The data isn't perfect - but it does tell us a few things:
1) Bass takes more shots closer to the basket, but doesn't necessarily score more effectively (eFG%/Blk'd%)
2) Cunningham shoots more jumpers more effectively - but within the flow of the offense (much higher assisted %)
3) Bass creates his own shot more (lower assisted %)
Overall
What this quick comparison does tell us is that the Blazers already have a "Bass-type" on the roster that in all likelihood will be an even better player. Dante's peripheral stats are as good or better, right now (Bass did draw more fouls in 2008/2009); Dante rebounds as good as a happy Bass; Dante shoots better (other than FT's); Dante passes better, turns the ball over less and blocks better.
Cunningham is arguably better than Bass - right now - and there is certainly no way you can make an argument for Bass over Cunningham when you compare salaries ($4M vs. $400K).
I like Brandon Bass' game - but the Blazers do not need him to get his game.
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Interesting
But we get no real sense of defensive differences or match up differences. I would guess Bass’s additional weight helps him match-up wise against taller players. I sure like Dante though and I hated what Bass and Berea did to us in pick and roll last year.
21 + 52=
Cunningham, so far
has been mostly a pick/pop type vs. a pick/roll type. However, he has shown he can go to the basket without the ball as well.
I didn’t address defense because I don’t really know how Bass plays on that side. I can tell you that the pre-draft scouting reports had Bass rated as a decent one-on-one defender, but not as good in help defense due to a low BBIQ. Dante rated very high in BBIQ, and has been an excellent help defender for a rookie.
I think Bass has been hurt by the surprising lack of minutes/role in Orlando
but I would take him over Dante in a pure player-for-player choice. As you said, the salary piece is a big component, and Dante will continue to develop as a player. Dante has made the decisions over the last few seasons more defensible, but I still think this franchise would have been much better off using RLEC on Hinrich and chasing Bass as an FA than it is with Miller drawing a larger FA bid and Dante.
Free AK1984.
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by blazeraddict on Mar 7, 2010 1:16 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I don't know...
Miller is starting to look like he will pay off down the stretch and into the playoffs. His assist to TO ratio since the all-star break is stellar and it looks like they have integrated him into their sets enough to use him effectively and when no one else is taking the ball to the basket, he pushed through. Can’t argue with Bass probably making a bigger impact with the Blazers than DC at this point in their careers.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Agreed
Bass may have added a little more this season, but I would not exchange them. I really think Dante has a brighter future than Bass. He has been a bit like Batum last year. None of us expected much, but he has made an immediate impact and shown that his impact may be far greater in the future.
Do you guys see Dante beefing up and turning into a legit power forward or staying lean and learning to go against bigger small forwards? I tend to lean to the former, but the latter has its appeal. His only problem now is that he is stuck between these two roles, and does not match up well against really big guys down low or really quick guys on the perimeter.
by unemployedreflection on Mar 7, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions
I think he has been better against quicker players than advertised
but that is simply opinion. I think he suffers more against bigger guys, such as when he has to switch onto a center.
but even when Dante's been matched up against centers
he’s still found a way to box them out and secure the rebound
I think he’ll be a stretch 4. Ferno should add the corner 3 to his repertoire this summer and then he’ll be a staple in the Blazer’s offense for years to come
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Mar 7, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
definitely a stretch 4
one on one, you wouldn’t want him guarding Bynum, for instance. But as a help defender mixing it up in the middle – he is very good like that.
another nice thing about Dante
is that he can play out on the perimeter on offense and still come “flying in” for rebounds and loose balls. Cunningham has great instincts for anticipating the angles on rebounds (aka an “out of position” rebounder)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Defense
A Dante, Oden Batum shift will be hard to score/board against next season
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
I'd like if we turned him into more of a power 3 than stretch 4
if you see a difference (i do). My distinction between the two is considering power 3’s being natural SFs strong enough to play the 4, with stretch 4’s being more natural PFs quick/skilled enough to play the 3
Batum is an excellent defender for the speed/quickness/finesse/shooting types of 2’s and 3’s (the kobe/wade/joe johnson mold) but lacks the bulk to deal with the best power 3’s (the bron/melo/artest type). I could see DC keeping his current role most nights but receiving increased PT when we match up against teams on which those types of players take prominent scoring roles.
He certainly can play against stretch 4’s as well, which gives us more options, but batum’s performance defensively against dirk makes me think that batum might be a better option against shooting bigs who won’t take advantage of him in the post (dirk/bargnani/channing)
"When jumpers are outlawed only Outlaw will take jumpers"-LoadedOrygun
by DominicanAvenger on Mar 8, 2010 3:39 AM PST up reply actions
He could fill out a bit more...
But I don’t know if you want him too heavy….usually guys that bulk up in the NBA don’t look as big/cut as he does when they come into the league. LA has added some bulk but was a year or two younger. I don’t think we want DC to go much higher than 240 unless he can do it and still keep his quickness.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
agreed
he will fill out a little more, but if he keeps that speed up he culd turn into an anderson/varejo type defender, fast, strong and annoying..
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
he is fantastic
in a 2-3 zone though, and for that reason I think he is fine at the 3. Really that’s what we should be playing with our second unit, say next year. It helps Fernandez out a lot, but hurts Webster and Bayless (don’t have the IQ). Batum is golden in either zone or man.
I like the post
I was excited about the possibility of Bass last summer but have been impressed with DC’s contributions this year. He plays a little smaller than Bass in the post but he is quicker and more athletic. It would be nice to see Bayless and DC work on the pick and roll/pop and make that a feature of the offensive for the second unit.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Last summer I wasn't as high on Bass as some of the other FA big men, like McDyess
mainly because Brandon isn’t an option to play backup center. Bass has the bulk to bang, but like your numbers show, he’s not that great of a rebounder and he’s not really a threat to block shots
Given the choice, for a 4 mil/year backup 4-5 I’d rather have Turiaf, even though Ronny’s stats aren’t as good. He’s got some playoff experience and will play the 10-15 mpg role and always foul hard if he can’t swat the shot
Of course the Blazers went with Camby instead and that’s fine, even though Marcus is skinny in his lower body, like LMA. Oden and Pendergraph should provide the “beastiness” down low in years to come.
I like Cunningham a lot, but he’s more of a 4-3 with great fundamentals
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
yeah - what prompted this post was exactly that - we already have what a lot of people seem to want from Bass
but that doesn’t mean we don’t need more.
A healthy Oden would be that “more”.
Nice post
Very interesting to see how similar they are.
Never really realized how similiar they were
And I’m very very very high on Bass. If Cunningham turns out to be a Brandon Bass type player, than I’ll be ecstatic.
Lover of everything Batum.
#88
I like the comparison of Dante and Bass
I’m not sure it is a perfect comparison due to differences in play (Dante is a bit more of a spread 4 than a post presence), but I like the comparison as Bass is a player than is mentioned so much in regards to the Blazers.
I actually think Dante can be a better fit in Portland because he is more of a spread 4. He can hit the open shot and keep the defense from clogging the paint. He’s got a great nose for the boards and has shown he has a high basketball IQ. Solid on defense as well.
If Greg comes back and is the low post presence that everyone expected of him, or even close to this, we will really start to appreciate the outside shooting of bigs like DC and LMA. I also love the fact that he doesn’t need the ball and scores best while in rythem of the offense. His asst’d percentage is over 80%. That’s what you need from a role player when you have guys like Dre, Brandon and LMA.
Dante may be better as a post type player
with more time on the floor with a true center. He does not log much time at all with Camby, and was not getting many minutes when Joel and Greg were playing t the beginning of the season…
Right now he is either on the floor with howard or aldridge…not the same dynamic…
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
It's a little like comparing Dante to Carl Landry
They are pretty different and Bass is pretty different too. He’s just a lot bigger than Dante and Dante will never be big like him until he’s 10 years out of the league and drinking Bud Lights. I wouldn’t mind a trade (Rudy maybe) for Bass and keeping Dante. We can usee the beef inside more than we can use Rudy on the perimeter. In fact, Bass rebounds, tip-ins or lay-ups will be worth more than wild Rudy 3’s in playoff games.
Yikes
Rudy is worth so much more than Brandon Bass (or he will be, when it comes time for KP to trade him)
Besides, KP isn’t going to sneak a Fernandez deal past Paul Allen, unless there’s a really big name coming back Portland’s way
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
this sentiment drove my research
Bass only takes 10% more shots inside than Cunningham, but is less effective when he does – and Cunningham rebounds better. Otherwise, the similarities are remarkable – and certainly support the idea that Bass would be an unnecessary expense (trade assets or straight salary) considering that Dante can do what he does, and some things better.
If nothing else, this shows that the Blazers can go get a true defensive post presence to compliment LMA/Dante. The jury is still out on Pendergraph being able to do that.
the Blazers can go get a true defensive post presence to compliment LMA/Dante
You mean…like Greg Oden?
I’ll be the first to say that Portland could use another banger, but at this point there’s no way to “go get one” until around draft day. Since the goal for the Blazers is to get past L*A and the other top teams in the WC, KP and the front office should continue to look at ways to improve the roster to match up with those elite teams. I think that the MLE (or perhaps a sign and trade…) could be used in July for this purpose, but it’s a bit early to speculate on which FAs would be the best “fit” for the 2010-2011 Blazer’s roster. A lot will depend on how the team competes in the post season, and how successful they think they will be re: signing Marcus Camby
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
as I noted before - Oden is the "more" that is needed
but I was meaning that the offseason focus should be another defensive big….
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 7, 2010 10:07 PM PST up reply actions
It will be tricky
Because with Greg coming back and Camby (hopefully) resigned and LMA playing his 35 mpg, Portland won’t have a major role to offer another FA big man (or even Freeland. etc) The trick will be to find another blue-collar guy like Joel. When Nash signed Przy (which may have been John’s best contribution to Portland’s roster during his time as GM) nobody thought it was a big deal—what was a Przybilla? Another project? A stiff? Well, we know now what Joel became through hard work, and there’s no reason to believe another diamond in the rough isn’t out there—and that will be the challenge for KP and the scouts, to find out who that guy is and bring him in to compete with Pendergraph for those backup 4-5 minutes and just maybe the Blazers will catch lightning in a bottle, again.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I think that with
Oden/Aldridge/Camby
even with all the injury trouble I like leaving the extra minutes (injuries or not)
to Dante, Howard, Pendergraph. Six is more than enough, and there’s a lot of toughness in that group.
six wasn't enough this year
but I agree, in a normal year you want 6 bigs…and I didn’t really count Travis Outlaw in “that” group heading into this season (even though he was considered a “stretch 4”) because he doesn’t play defense or rebound like a PF. Cunningham does
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
camby aint coming back
and he has made it fairly clear in his statements
by GreatOden'sRaven on Mar 10, 2010 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
you must've read different comments than I have from Marcus
or perhaps you “read into” Camby’s comments differently?
Portland can offer MC more money than any NBA team in July. Will they? I don’t know, but the Blazers definitely need a veteran player like him even if they decide he’s not worth the expense. If they do, would Marcus turn down Portland’s offer to play for less $ in another NBA town? It’s possible, but unlikely
but I ain’t writing him off, for comments you think he made fairly clear
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Our buddy two4larue is rightly fond of Rudy
but I’m fond of strong interior play. The fans love all that flashy passing and deadly 3 point shooting from guys like Rudy but what do they know. When the playoffs come round we’ll wish we had a Bass or Landry to box out Lamar Odem et al.
not just the fans
if you saw the translation that amlmart1 did a couple of weeks ago re: (Blazer Euro scout) Jason Filippi’s comments on Rudy, then you’d realize how much Allen is enamoured with #5 and how he’s already shot down at least one trade proposal involving Fernandez.
(here’s the link)
As much as you’d like to see Portland add another banger for the post-season, that window of opportunity closed on the 19th. If you’ve been around Bedge for awhile, you’ll know I was making “Travis for a veteran banger 4-5” trade proposals since last June so I understand the need. There’s just no point in wishing for Rudy to be flipped for a beast rebounder at this time…even if KP had the desire he couldn’t make it happen
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
we did get the 2nd leading rebounder.....so the call was answered
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 7, 2010 10:08 PM PST up reply actions
I approved of the Camby deal
Unfortunately, Marcus has had the same buzzard’s luck as Greg and Joel. The other disadvantage that Portland has without Oden/Przy is strength. You can see it when they play teams like Utah and Denver and the Portland bigs aren’t strong enough to deal with beasts like Nene and Boozer. LMA and Camby are tall, but they can be bodied out of position below the waist. Howard and Cunningham are the same, as much as they try, they’re giving up too much lower-body leverage.
Only Pendergraph is built solidly-enough to bang, but he lacks experience and is easily tricked into fouls. Oden will be Portland’s great “equalizer” but he’s also missed a lot of developmental time and he’ll have to “start over” learning how to deal with all the veteran tricks (that lead to silly fouls) and win the respect of the refs to stay out on the floor long enough to be a difference-maker. It’s frustrating, because guys like LMA and Camby are just one healthy Oden away from being long and tough to deal with, but without Greg they can be folded-over and pushed under the basket, when the game action gets rough
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yes, I was right with you as I hoped for a Ronny Turiaf type player
Still, the consolidation is incomplete and the summer is just around the corner. It may be a banger or it may be a super point guard but something good id coming our way.
+1
Cunningham = jamon51’s favorite (uninjured) Blazer.
" It was as if the Suns hatched a fiendish plot to ruin John Wayne's movie career by casting him as a cowboy." - Dave 2/10/2010
Very nice post
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#10 #52 -- #5 #7 & #88 are back!
The guy to grab
is actually Ryan Anderson… is not getting any run right now in Orlando cuz Rashard is being paid a jillion bucks and Matt barnes is actually playing decent. Oh, and Bass is getting 5m, while Anderson, who is 2nd on team in PER, is only a 2nd year guy. Van Gundy is a moron, but don’t get me started! Anyway, Anderson can shoot, defend, knock down 3’s, and plays a very cerebral game. Guy has a decent post game, too, but is required to hang out at 3pt line so as not to disturb Superman down low. Would love it if we could get him..
#teamdante
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by BlazerFan1 on Mar 8, 2010 11:06 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Bass
No jokes about making a side by side comparison of Trout versus Bass?
What a wonderful window of opportunity to make a lame joke!
I suspect there will be better "Trout" fishing
in Memphis than in LA (or Portland) this summer
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I was on the Bass bandwagon before the season started
and I still think he would have made a good addition (if the rest of the team had stayed healthy). But we also would not have found out that our rookie DC was as good or better(my opinion). I would rather see Dante playing ahead of Howard. Actually, Pendy too. He has great tenacity and as said, a high BBIQ.
I would like to see us go for someone like Marcin Gortat. He has really been able to fill in at the center spot for Orlando. It really doesn’t look like Joel will be back for next year due to his recent re-injury, and will be a free agent after that.
To summarize: Wade too quick, Kobe too skilled, LeBron too physical - Batum
I would say Dante has more potential minutes at the 3
if there is a plan to bring Freeland over in a year or 2…
Patty Mills - PG of the future. Book it.
Im on team Inferno but...
He has got viciously dunked on twice this season and that could lower his morale and therefore affect his play going into the end of the season. Nene and Amar’e will send him some of their new posters. In all seriousness though, I beleive Dante was a great steal by KP and should be a nice role player for the blazers in years to come.
"Good, Better, Best, never let it rest until your good is your better and your better is your best." Tim Duncan
I doubt NBA players spend much time ...
… pondering those occasions they were dunked on. I most certainly doubt that they do not let it demoralize them or affect their confidence in any way. They all know that if you play in the NBA, you will get dunked on. The whole posterization shtick is something to keep the attention challenged minds of fans and sports writers occupied.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
scratch the "do not"
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
believe me..they remember EVERYONE they dunk on
but not when they were dunked ON
by GreatOden'sRaven on Mar 10, 2010 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
I can believe that.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Bass is much better than Dante
His limited play in Orlando doesn’t show his true ability. He was a very good player in Dallas during the regular season and was downright great during both his playoff runs with the team. SVG runs a very specialized system in which Bass isn’t a key figure, and isn’t really used to maximize his abilities. He’s Dante+ at a minimum.
say it ain't so
No doubt Bass’ minutes are down this year, and his role is different.
However, I used Bass’ stats from his last year at Dallas where it varied significantly from his 2009/2010 rates, and the only ones that really change are his rebounding (which brings him up to Dante’s from this year) and his fouled rate (goes up 6%).
Other than that – his rates in Dallas and Orlando aren’t so different that you can claim a change of scenery has lessened his game. It just isn’t so. Bass is what he is – but what is isn’t is “much better than Dante”.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 11, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions
He would've been the ideal fit behind LMA at the 4.
And by neglecting his stats in Dallas where he was among the best jump shooters in the whole league the last two years you’re completely negating what makes him a special player. He also is a capable 5, as he’s a better post defender than Cunningham, which also would’ve been helpful here.
you need to read the original post, and my reply to you - again
I said it both times – I didn’t ignore Bass’ Dallas stats – and went to them on purpose to improve his comparison to Dante. Only by including those stats does Bass come equal to Dante. And no, Bass is not a capable 5. Bass does score higher in scouting reports in one on one defense – but far lower in BBIQ (and help defense).
I’m not knocking Bass’ game, necessarily. I’m knocking the idea that we need Bass because we have Dante.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 11, 2010 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
You didn't use Bass' Dallas stats.
He was a .489 and .454 jump shooter in Dallas. That’s better than Dante. Not to mention him easily being the better interior scorer. In Dallas and Portland mid range jumpers are of high priority. In Orlando that isn’t the case, thus Bass’ play there.
not sure why you think those stats are better than Dante's
Bass is a career .49% shooter, and his outside eFG% in 2008/2009 was only 44% (the same as Dante’s this season). Further, both Bass and Dante are about more than their shooting percentages from outside – their stats are very close in other areas precisely because they are similar players.
Basically, you are just wrong about Bass being a definitively better player. It just isn’t true – because we have stats that tell us it isn’t true.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 12, 2010 12:44 AM PST up reply actions
but he's not 4 times better
when you compare salaries, Dante > BB
If you wanted Bass now, you’d have to deal (at least) Martell to acquire him, and then Nate would have to sort out the PT at the 4-5 with LMA and Greg. I’m not sold on Bass as a rebounder and defender, and I suspect Portland likes their low-cost options (Pendy/Ferno) well enough to not pursue BB.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Is Andre Miller seven times better than Darren Collison or Rodrigue Beabois?
That’s a pretty horrible way to judge players.
This article neglects to mention that Bass is essentially a 4/5, while Cunningham is a 3/4, which should account for the rebounding disparity. It also neglects to account for Bass’s far superior jump shot, which can be seen in either of his two most recent seasons in Dallas. Bass defends post players better, Cunningham defends hybrid 4’s better. Bass is the better overall player. Bass would’ve been ideal next to either of our centers going into the season.
not judging players, judging acquisitions
Portland had the opportunity to acquire Bass last summer, but chose to spend their capspace on Miller, after failing to acquire Hedo or Millsap
I wasn’t as sold on Bass last July as a swing 4-5 as you were. In hindsight, sure, BB looks like a valuable guy to have added last summer. But at the time, the Blazers had Oden-LMA-Joel and no minutes for Bass (as it turns out, he accepted a deal from a team who had just as few minutes available, go figure) Brandon was probably more interested to play for a finals team than a young team who just had a 15-20 mpg role available, if “everyone” had stayed healthy. KP drafted DC and JP and signed Juwan Howard to do what Bass would’ve done. That’s less than 2 mil/year for 3 players to provide most of the stats that one player earning 4 mil would’ve provided. That’s pretty fair roster/salary management, especially when you factor in that he signed a top-10 starting PG in the same offseason
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
He also used 3 draft picks and 4 roster spots filling what Bass would've filled by himself
If you’re going to argue Miller as a top 10 PG, that’s your own deal, I’m certainly not seconding that. Add in the age difference there and the additional investment it just wasn’t a smart offseason. We’d be better off long term with 5 or 6 of these guys we could’ve gotten in the draft at point guard. We put too many eggs in the this season basket and we’re already paying the price. Look at what the T’Wolves got for a relatively modest package of taking on bad contracts for picks. Not that they were very smart with it, but it would’ve been worlds better for us to go that way as opposed to the way we went.
Bass was a better long term investment than Miller. And that’s without factoring in what we could’ve gotten with those other draft picks and additional cash.
We’d be better off long term with 5 or 6 of these guys we could’ve gotten in the draft at point guard.
What is there about the last 5 years of Blazer PG development that makes you think that any of last year’s rookie crop would’ve done better than Miller, Blake or Bayless has this year? (note: telling me what their stats are for their current teams is not an answer, because we both know they wouldn’t have had the same success in a Portland uniform playing for Nate)
I’ve seen this “movie” before, and I’m not interested in KP drafting another PG and handing him over to the coaching staff for 2-3 years of development. At some point you have to try something different—for example, Miller and Blake have been the best “answer” at PG during the McMillian/Roy era, not any of the rookie PGs. (Perhaps Bayless will break through, but based on his summer league play the Blazers couldn’t face the thought of starting the season off with Jerryd backing up Blake)
And in hindsight, drafting 2 PFs and signing Howard has provided 3 bodies to play major minutes following the injuries to the centers. Bass is fine and all that, but I doubt Brandon was prepared to play 45+ mpg alongside LMA from December-April
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I agree above any of this we should get rid of Nate
Pendy, Inferno and Howard are all replacement level players. That’s how they were acquired and that’s how they have been used (injury replacements). Getting any one player that’s an upgrade would’ve resulted in better overall play. Bass playing 30 minutes per game is far preferable than Howard Cunningham and Pendy playing that 30 minutes.
On the PG front I’m talking about down the line. Down the line having one of those top PG prospects is better than having a 35 year old Andre Miller, or eventually no one. If you can’t get anything from your PG’s because of Nate, Nate should be gone.
On the PG front I’m talking about down the line.
Down the line (assuming Bayless isn’t “the guy”) I’d rather see Portland acquire Miller’s replacement by trade or FA signing than via the draft. BTW, the Blazers haven’t developed an above-average PG in 20+ years, so you can’t put all of that on Nate. My take is—don’t obsess about and force what you don’t do well. Continue to draft wings and bigs, assemble “too much depth” at those positions then use the excess to target another veteran PG when Andre is worn out. Stay away from the rookie PG fetish, especially now that the team will be out of the lottery for years to come
Do I expect KP and Paul Allen to resist the temptation? No. But if they’re waiting to draft a PG at the 55th spot in the draft, at least that’s better than wasting the 22nd, 31st and 33rd picks on a waterbug
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
It was the deepest PG in a long time
your kind of logic is extremely flawed. Should we have passed on Chris Paul. Is Chris Paul a failure here because we can’t “develop” point guards? There is no developing involved. You have a young guy with talent, you play him. If he’s good you find out he’s good. If he’s not then you find that out too. The issue with Nate is he’s never let a guy have that chance. He’d yank the rug out every single time, no matter what. That’s not how to deal with young point guards if you expect them to ever excel.
You draft the best players. Last year we had the cap space and draft picks to move up and get that point guard somewhere. There are literally 10 guys talented enough to be deserving of minutes in the not so distant future. We’ve had the pieces necessary to trade for a point guard for 3 years now, we haven’t done that either. Andre Miller is a nice and average ancient point guard. He’s not going to be the key to this team winning a Championship. He was a very poor use of our money long term. In 3 years we’re going to wish we had a guy in his prime like Ariza or Bass would’ve been making moderate money instead of what will probably be no one. Look at what the T’Wolves gave up for Rubio last year. There’s no reason that shouldn’t have been us. We had the cap space, talent and draft picks to make it happen but we sat on our hand, and then crapped our pants, both in regards to the basic strategy of it, and the players we did draft.
Getting any one player that’s an upgrade would’ve resulted in better overall play
Not if that “one player” winds up having to replace two injured starting centers. Like it or not, Portland needed to add big men to their roster last summer (Frye was leaving, Ruffin and Randolph weren’t coming back) so if they hadn’t drafted JP/DC they would’ve wound up signing “below” replacement level players like Melvin Ely or Jarren Collins. And if KP had spent half over half of his capspace on Bass, then we’d still be looking at Blake as the starting PG heading into the postseason
My suggestion all summer was to deal Outlaw for a veteran 4-5. That wasn’t going to be Bass, but in the end KP turned Travis into Camby, and I can live with that outcome.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Once again.... minutes Bass plays > minutes from Inferno/Pendy/Howard
So yes, that one above replacement level player is better than below replacement/replacement level guys. There’s no reason Howard couldn’t have also been on the roster for his cost after we had Bass. In fact after Bass we still would’ve had 6ish million left under the cap.
The problem with the difference between trading Outlaw and Blake like we did versus like what could’ve been done is we didn’t garner any long term benefits from it. Camby can very easily walk and we will have gotten nothing from two expiring contracts. The market value for 8 million in expiring could have at least garnered us a 1st round draft pick, if not a quality player signed for multiple years. I hope Camby stays, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
Bass is not playing better than Dante
We are all surprised out how Bass has been used in Orlando – but he hasn’t outplayed Dante this season – nor should we expect him to significantly outplay Dante ever.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 12, 2010 12:57 AM PST up reply actions
Bass is a better player than Dante
He has outplayed Dante this season (PER, opponents PER etc). Bass is a +5, while Dante is a -3. He has also done this while being misused. So yes, Bass under normal circumstances, this year, last year, any year is the better player. We’d expect him to outplay Dante is most circumstances. This goes to an even higher degree when we consider one of the voids left in our lineup has been at center, a place where Bass is good while Dante is just flat incapable.
you are wrong about Bass' J - Dante is a better spot up shooter
and Bass is clearly not the better over all player. Statistics tell us how each player actually performs – and Bass and Cunningham are very similar.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 11, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Bass has the better overall numbers throughout his career as a jump shooter.
http://www.82games.com/0809/FGSORT7.HTM
The year before he was even better from outside hitting on 49% of his jumpers (which would’ve been second overall in 2008).
And yes, Bass is clearly the better player. Especially if you just consider their play at the 4, and fit on the team. Inferno has a ways to go before he’s in the same breath as Bass. I also think you should take a look at his playoff stats the last couple years before you go dismissing Bass.
http://www.82games.com/0708/playoffs/playoffs.htm
http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/0809DAL.HTM
The last two years in the playoffs he finished 11th and 11th in roland rating. That’s a player giving you his best when it matters most. And yes, a significant portion of those minutes were with him at the 5.
I guess KP missed those stats
because otherwise he would’ve flew Bass into PDX on July 1, instead of Hedo
Portland had their opportunity to acquire BB. The lack of any Blazer rumor re: Bass last July leads me to believe the front office came to a different conclusion re: his potential “fit” in the Blazer front court. You can bemoan this decision all you want, but I find the drafting of Pendergraph (instead of DeJuan Blair) to be much more egregious than failing to overpay BB to convince him to come out to the NW
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don't think 4 million was overpaying
You know I’m the biggest Blair fan on this board. That’s an entirely different story. Free agency happens after the draft. I’d have taken Blair and Ariza all day over what we got. Getting these ancient players and 2nd round talents doesn’t do what needs done if this team wants to win it’s Championships during the prime of our big 3/4.
you can argue your expectations all day long
but if the Blazers anticipated Bass’ 2009/2010 cost benefit vs. Dante’s 2009/2010 cost benefit – then the Blazers were right and you are wrong.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 12, 2010 1:00 AM PST up reply actions
Cost benefit?
Seriously? Is Andre Miller 7 times better than Darren Collison?
Heck, Dante isn’t even BETTER than DeJuan Blair, a player chosen later in the draft.
You don’t understand the ins and outs of roster assembly if you’re not getting how this works. Bass is a level or two above Dante. There’s a reason he garnered the contract he got, and getting a player of that value during his prime for 4 million per year is at worst a nice pickup. Dante seems like a decent 2nd round pick so far. Bass has been a very good role player for a playoff team already for multiple seasons. Lets keep our heads on straight.
It's easy for fans and GM's to overrate players
which is why we keep our heads on straight by examining the statistics….
The underlying stats tell us what we need to know – Bass’ skill set is effectively duplicated in Dante Cunningham – with minor differences. PER doesn’t carry much weight here as an effective player evaluation metric – for good reason. I like NET PER with sufficient sample size (like a whole season and for an entire position rather than individual players), but even that metric gets attacked on a regular basis.
You have invoked Miller vs. Collison – but that isn’t relevant to this discussion. What is relevant is that Dante rebounds better, plays better defense, shoots better, handles the ball better, etc. etc. etc. If you want to go back and use Bass’ better seasons, then the playing field is leveled a bit – but not $3.5M better.
Bass isn’t a viable option as a center other than spot minutes. He doesn’t rebound enough, and can’t play good enough defense when that outsized. There is a reason he does not get significant minutes as a center – and it has everything to do with being 6’7. In short spurts, he has an athleticism advantage – but anything more than that and he has a size disadvantage.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 12, 2010 2:22 AM PST up reply actions
Bass is a better jump shooter. Bass is a better more efficient scorer. Bass gets a higher percentage of his shots closer to the basket. Bass has the capability to play the center position effectively as he proved in Dallas. He even played the position at an extremely high level in the playoffs the past two seasons. He’s a better post defender and a better one on one defender.
While on paper it may say that Cunningham is a better rebounder, I’d contest that. Inferno has played less than 5% of his minutes this year with a legit center.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR10.HTM#5man
Compare this to Bass who has played next to either Howard or Gortat for over 95% of his minutes
http://www.82games.com/0910/09ORL10.HTM#5man
and it’s not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
The only real carrot you pluck from all this data is that Cunningham has a better hands rating. We’re comparing catch and shoot power forwards for the most part, is that really relevant to this? Look what it measures, and how few incidents we’re actually looking at.
credit for your attempt - but it falls short
first – the premise is that Dante is arguably better than Bass when you consider the whole of their games….
But the fact is that Dante is outshooting Bass right now, and Bass’ career stats don’t help him out. But shooting is the least of their comparisons. Defense, rebounding, ball handling, BBIQ – all these things matter – and Dante measures up no matter what category you want to focus on.
Not only does Dante play similar enough to make acquiring Bass irrelevant – especially considering cost – he is playing better right now – and right now matters.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 12, 2010 12:55 AM PST up reply actions
Well if you ignore a gigantic portion of data
you can make whatever argument you want.
Dante isn’t arguably better at nearly any measure. The one you’re trying to make the case for is just completely flawed. You’re basing what Brandon Bass is based off 15% of a season that’s just 60 games old, when he has perfectly legitimate data from two previous seasons where he was used much more appropriately and their is mountains more of data in both the regular season and the playoffs.
Your opinion of Brandon Bass is largely centered around a 10% segment of his career on a team where he has been almost universally misused. It’s just silly.Then you refuse to acknowledge just how good he was with Dallas especially in the playoffs.
If the premise is that Dante is arguably better than Bass, then the premise is flatly wrong. Brandon Bass would be playing 30 minutes per game on this team right now. Howard Cunningham and Pendy play 0 minutes on a team that also has Brandon Bass as an option.
Apparently written evidence contradicting the entirety of comment is irrelevant
I asked you to actually read the posts – but you still argue that I am basing the comparison on just this season.
You can lead a horse to water – but you can’t make him drink.
by blacknoiseNW on Mar 12, 2010 2:24 AM PST up reply actions
Your 3 point conclusion is based on this year
You show only selective stats from the past couple years, and your shooting stats are entirely based on this year, even though, after further examination, Bass is still better (when misused).
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