No Amore for Amare
One of the questions that keeps showing up in my mailbox is whether the Blazers could, should, or would have any interest in trading for Amare Stoudemire. Short answer: No. Or at least I hope not.
LaMarcus Aldridge may not be the power forward of everyone's dreams but he can play alongside Greg Oden just fine. I don't believe Amare can do so on offense. Amare scores 21 per game to Aldridge's 17 on roughly the same number of shots because Stoudemire draws far more foul shots than does LaMarcus. But would that continue if he were a Blazer? I'm willing to bet that LaMarcus could score 21 as a Sun as well. Amare and LaMarcus both rebound about the same. LaMarcus has a chance to be a better defender than Amare. And LaMarcus' price tag is several million dollars less per year, plus he's younger, plus he hasn't had microfracture surgery. There may be a few reasons to value Amare over LaMarcus but in the final balance it wouldn't be worth the cost to the Blazers.
Plus you have to factor in reports about Amare's attitude. His production tends to fall when he's not happy. He's not happy when he doesn't get enough touches and isn't as prominent a part of the team as he feels he deserves to be. What spot can Portland guarantee him? How big of a role will he play here? If you get him you better commit to it being huge and hope that he will concentrate and merit it.
Maybe you're thinking of playing him at center instead of power forward...finding a way to trade someone else besides LaMarcus to get him. I doubt Phoenix would accept, but even were that to happen prepare for your defense to stink. Juwan Howard plays better D in the post than Amare does. Teaming Stoudemire and Aldridge in the frontcourt with the current backcourt would be a defensive nightmare...and not in the good way.
Then you have to consider salary practicalities. Stoudemire makes $16.4 million this year. That's at least three Portland contracts...probably more if you include LaMarcus and have to compensate for his poison pill provision. In no way am I averse to trading three guys for one but the one guy coming in has to be the exact right fit. I'm not sure Amare qualifies.
You also have to consider reports that Amare wants to be "traded to a contender". Maybe I'm old-school, but I'm so sick of hearing this from today's players. There are two situations in which it's legitimate to employ that phrase. If you're LeBron James or Kobe Bryant, clearly the best of the best in this league, and your team has utterly failed to build around you for years then I can buy in. Alternately if you're a franchise player pushing 40 who has never won it all and you have something to give as a role player that would be valuable to a contender but doesn't help your current team much then I'm OK with the request. You've given your prime and years of sweat and devotion to a franchise. They can do something back for you. But outside of those two situations "I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser." Here's a guess: If Amare Stoudemire used his athletic prowess to play defense anywhere above the level of a Jell-o Pudding Snack Pack he'd already be on a contender. What's more, that contender would be willing to pay him the $62 billion he's going to be asking after this contract. In my book that's what you do. You look at yourself and your own play and ask if you've done everything humanly possible to make your team a contender before you ask to be traded to one. If the answer is "No" then it's on you, not on them. Stop casting your eyes to the horizon and start playing ball.
The only scenario that makes sense for Portland is if they're looking at Stoudemire's contract as a massive salary dump. But considering that they'd almost certainly have to trade away already-expiring contracts to get him that doesn't wash either.
There are reasons Phoenix is willing to part with this guy. My prediction is that he gets his chance somewhere, somebody pays him a ton of money, and if that team happens to be a contender now he ends up making them less so by his presence. Just make sure that team isn't Portland. There's no reason for it. More importantly there's no percentage in it.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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well said
you covered all the big reasons not to trade for amare…and agree with all of them. :)
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Part of the reason I'm not pulling punches
is that I don’t think he’s doing right by your team. The Suns made him a star/occasional superstar. Nowhere else would he have found the system that gave him that many points and that much opportunity to run. All he had to do was ramp his defensive game up a little—maybe just pay attention a little—and rebound hard and he’d be leading you deep into the playoffs year after year. Instead he wants to bite the hand that feeds him. He’s not good enough overall to pull that crap. He scores a lot but I can find players to score given the right amount of touches. The Amare that prospered with you had value. This Amare I wouldn’t touch with a ten-foot pole.
—Dave
It's interesting how things change
A few seasons ago, even after the micro, Amare was untouchable. 2nd team all NBA not that long ago. He wasn’t that different than he is today, but his attitude and effort problems became more apparent, and the defense never improved like people hoped.
He could be soooo good, but I don’t think he’ll realize it as long as he wants to be The Man and not play interior defense. Ya can’t have no defense from a big, and expect to win in the playoffs. It will not happen.
Amare is talented enough to fit most anywhere, including us, but I can’t see him ever being okay taking a backseat to Roy, let alone Oden over time. An allstar starter, twice a 2nd team all-NBA guy, and so many teams don’t want much to do with him because of his attitude. It’s funny how things change, and makes me wonder how aware he is of this.
Mortimer
#52
just wanted to take a quick minute to thank everyone for emailing that question to dave and not me. lol
It's because Dave likes Andre Miller as a person.
Or rather, likes him so much that he’ll throw anyone who doesn’t under the bus. :p
πεντήκοντα δύο
Could not agree more.
Well said Dave… LA is going to grow into the perfect compliment to Greg, Brandon, and Batum.
If healthy the Trailblazers win their next championship 2011-2012
Can’t wait.
great writeup
you are spot on. I’m so done with Ama’re talk.
PS – thanks for the new sig. I was long overdue
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
The only scenario that makes sense for Portland is if they’re looking at Stoudemire’s contract as a massive salary dump. But considering that they’d almost certainly have to trade away already-expiring contracts to get him that doesn’t wash either.
also amare can opt in for next year so there’s no guarantee it would be dumped.
Why would he not be clamboring to play with Nash?
Does he not shower Amare with easy buckets?
His situation seems really similar to Marion’s, who fell off the map after leaving the Steve Nash Suns. The grass really isn’t that much greener.
Holding out for Hedo
Lesson of this story
Steve Nash makes merely decent players awesome.
"Good evening Blazer fans, wherever you may be!"-Bill Schonely
...on offense
You know how you can add “in bed” at the end of fortune cookies. Statements about Nash are like that, you just insert “on offense.”
by unemployedreflection on Feb 5, 2010 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
statistics are one thing
but statistics illustrated in a line graph = smackdown
If offense and particularly how a player shoots is all that matters then you'd have a point
but it isn’t. Marion was a legitimately great player before Nash and changed very little.
He was a 21.0 PER guy before Nash and became a 21.5 PER guy with Nash (next to no difference), which just happens to coincide with the years that ought to be a players prime (so it was a wash). He was a big factor in the Suns playing the style they did because he created an extremely high amount of turnovers which is vital for that system.
Attributing Marion’s success to Nash is a complete and utter fallacy. Two way street there. Marion was doing near the same thing with Stephon Marbury at PG.
Marion peaked at 23.6 PER in 05-06... playing with Nash.
His two best statistical seasons were with Nash at the helm.
"Ain't nothin' in this world for free."
Ya... the heart of his prime
Marion was 26-29 w/ Nash. That is pretty much the definition of a players prime. He also wasn’t in a different world with his overall numbers, he was just tick better. You may as well say that Marion made Nash great because Nash was never as good as he was when he was with Marion. Nash was a 20 PER guy before Marion, then had 4 seasons averaging around 23 PER w/ him. The argument that Nash made Marion is a silly one. Marion has had an all around game from the start. He got a couple more open jumpers with Nash, and that’s pretty much the extent of things.
Yeah, Nash didn't make Marion
it was playing with all star PGs for the first 8 years of his career that made him.
#52
True
it didn’t matter whether he played with Marbury or Nash, Marion got the job done on both ends of the floor.
I don't necessarily disagree with the conclusion, but the method is suspicious
he used 3 categories that are very highly overlapped in this graph. The result is deceiving because it looks like all 3 stats prove his points while actually they are the same one.
Also, can you imagine LMA playing with Nash?
Glad we won’t ever have to play against that team.
Holding out for Hedo
Testify!
I wholeheartedly agree. Your reasons also reflect why Phoenix has been trying to trade him for over a year now. They sagely understand that he is not worth a max contract. I am fine with him going elsewhere.
Am I crazy...
for thinking that LMA and Oden will eventually bring out the best in one another? I know they weren’t clicking when Oden went down this year, but on paper they seem like a perfect fit. If you had to pick a type of center to play with LMA, he would look alot like Oden … and vice versa. I know it’s homer speculation, but Roy/Batum/LMA/Oden just seems like it should, given adequate time to play together, fit perfectly. I am still not sure how the PG situation shakes out, but that’s another post.
In other words, I agree completely Dave. Amare = don’t want.
by unemployedreflection on Feb 5, 2010 3:59 PM PST reply actions
That would explain the straightjacket
that makes it so hard to type.
by unemployedreflection on Feb 6, 2010 8:19 AM PST up reply actions
I've never been confused
as the biggest LMA fan in the world, but no way in hell I want Amare on this team.
he is basically what we hope LMA doesnt turn into.
Ball handling and dribbling are my strongest weaknesses."—David Thompson
Amazing how far Amare's stock has fallen
but we should give credit to the blogosphere for being able to recognize/understand net vale.
Players are the sum of their parts (offense/defense/contract/attitude).
Don't forget Dwayne Wade and possibly Brandon Roy
who could legitimately ask to be traded to a contender (Chris Paul??)
Definitely not Amare!!
Also, I wish people would stop giving Aldridge
such a bad time. He is still a young player and is improving, albeit slowly. I think because Brandon is such an anomaly and they came out at the same time, that people think he should have developed as fast as the rookie of the year and three time all-star starting his second year. Come on, be realistic!!
we are hard on LMA
but I think its because he has a mastery of some of the harder things to do in the NBA (running the floor, silky jumper, good footwork) yet has trouble with some of the things that just require effort (rebounds, help D, interior shots)
With how quickly he developed the Jumper and offensive game, i think people are frustrated that he still hasnt put in work rebounding or learning an interior post game. He says he wants to be an All-Star but he hasnt developed the last few things to take his game to that level. I know a lot of people were expecting this to be that year
Ball handling and dribbling are my strongest weaknesses."—David Thompson
It isn't just a matter of effort, it is about body type
LMA is not a bruising, low center of gravity guy, and never will be. The same physical attributes that help him run the floor and make his jumper impossible to block, i.e. long, lanky body, makes it difficult for him to defend the low post and get position for rebounds.
I’m not saying that he can’t improve, but people need to understand that this is not just about effort.
by upper left corner on Feb 6, 2010 9:28 AM PST up reply actions
Thank you Dave. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I’m so freaking tired of Gavin Dawson gushing about Amare on the MSP. He sounds like an imbecile when he talks about how we need to give up whatever it would take to get him.
I still have faith that Aldridge can turn into a consistent low post threat and second option.
"What people need to know is that those pictures were taken a year and a half ago, and I've grown since then." - Greg Oden
We know the Blazers were willing to give Hedo 5 years, 50 million
And Freeman said earlier this week that they were interested in Amare’ last year at the trading deadline
I’m not sayin I’d ever want Stoudemire in a Portland uniform, but just imagine the consternation if KP made the deal and then tried to sell it to the fanbase…my, oh my
It’s a good thing Portland’s front office is smarter than that…right Mrs. Turkoglu?
Still, I think KP needs to add another big man in the next 2 weeks…he just needs to pick his spots and settle for a “double” instead of swinging for the fences
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
O-ka-for! O-ka-for! O-ka-for!
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by The Cactus Leaguer on Feb 5, 2010 10:34 PM PST reply actions
wow I might be the only one here who think Amare is a little underrated
I agree with every concerns that Dave had – defense, attitude, salary, injury history – but I do think his offensive game is on a far superior level than LMA is.
Yes PPG of 21 and 17 are not that different but Amare’s FG% is a whopping 60 points higher than LMA’s. That’s actually not too far off from their career averages (54.2% vs 48.8%) Their ability to draw fouls are strikingly different as well – career FTA per36: Amare – 8.1, LaMarcus – 3.8.
Talk about how he’d fit with Oden, well, here’s another statement that would probably blow a lot of people’s mind – Amare has been a much better mid-range jump shooter than LaMarcus has been.
Proof: for the past 4 seasons, Amare’s FG% from 16-23 feet have been around 45-48% while LaMarcus’s FG% from same distance are around 39-41%. LaMarcus shoots more long 2s but Amare has also taken that shot often enough to make the FG% meaningful. (all data from hoopdata.com)
Besides the stats, by watching how he plays I think there’s no doubt Amare’s ball-handling, ability to absorb contact and find ways to finish around the rim are clearly better than LaMarcus’.
Now, of course the offensive system orchestrated by Steve Nash has helped Amare a lot, also whether a guy would fit with Oden or not doesn’t depend solely on his mid range jumper. But I do think Amare is certainly capable – offensively – of being a No.2 option on a very good contending team.
Oden would cover Amare’s weakness in rebounding & defense just like he’d cover LMA’s. I’d still hesitate to bring him in though due to other concerns, but I do think he’s a little undervalued right now.
I agree, he's quite a bit better offensively and if it wasn't for his apparent bad attitude
He wouldn’t be so undervalued right now.
Of course, if he didn’t have a bad attitude, he wouldn’t ever be available to get in a trade, so it’s a Catch-22.
I can’t imagine a better situation for a guy like him than playing with Nash during his best years… to not be happy with that, like we’ve heard for a while now, is too much of a warning sign.
Incredibly talented, but just seems too annoying for his own good.
Morty
#52
I agree that we shouldn't trade for Amare
BUT, if you are making any personnel moves based on “who can play with Oden,” you are making a mistake. I know we want to pretend that Greg is still a major piece going forward, but the facts are increasingly difficult to ignore. He hasn’t been healthy in four years. I think we have to build as if Oden is never going to play more than 50 games in a season and deal with what happens if he does develop into the player we all desperately want him to be.
The way I see it
You play for a chance for a title, and Oden gives you the best chance. No replacement we could possibly get gives us that chance.
You plan and play with the hope he’ll be healthy, because that’s our shot at winning it all, and not just being a good team.
With Amare, I say it’s not really about how he’d fit (he can shoot and is a versatile scorer), but his attitude and effort concerns. But we ain’t winning a title by planning for life without Oden without some major changes, so ya might as well go for with it the big lug.
Mortimer
#52
KP can't add "another Joel"
as good as Przy is, he and Greg can’t play alongside each other for anything other than token minutes. Ideally the prefect 3rd big man to go in a “rotation” with Greg/LMA would be better defensively than Amare. And it should be someone who wouldn’t mind coming in off the bench
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

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