Martell Webster's Minutes: An Analysis
The hot topic of the last week or so has been when Nate McMillan will finally pull the trigger and start Nicolas Batum. Dwight Jaynes summed up the arguments for Batum nicely. Since Batum's first game back I've been pushing for McMillan to ramp up Batum's minutes as quickly as possible and since last weekend Batum's play has made not starting him seem like a criminal act.
Of course, there are a few extenuating circumstances to consider here that make this decision more difficult for McMillan than it might appear.
First, Brandon Roy's health obviously overshadows this entire discussion. It's been touch and go for the last week or two. McMillan has already been juggling his lineups like crazy this season. Any consistency he can find in a starting lineup will be valued more than it might usually. If he decided to start Batum now then he would have a second lineup change to deal with once Roy returns. Perhaps he would prefer to make those switches together.
Second, applying the brakes on Batum to ensure he doesn't feel pain in his recently repaired shoulder is a consideration. When push comes to shove down the stretch, McMIllan has shown no hesitancy in playing Batum for entire fourth quarters at a time. But if he can save five minutes here, five minutes there at this point in the season and Batum's recovery that's a good thing.
Third, and perhaps most important, there's the role and development of Martell Webster. For nearly his entire career, Webster has left the coaching staff and fans scratching their heads, not knowing what he'll produce on any given night. That started to change this January when Webster strung together the best month of his career, stepping up in Roy's absence and getting red hot from the three point line. McMillan relied on Webster so heavily that Webster actually played every single minute of the second half of a back to back. As I noted at the time, that's a pretty big deal.
The question facing Nate McMillan: How do I reincorporate a ridiculously promising Nicolas Batum into my rotation while still hanging on to as much of the career-best production I've been receiving from Martell Webster? While sliding Webster to the 2 might work in the immediate short-term, Roy will be coming back sooner rather than later. While fitting too many productive players into a rotation is a relatively good problem to have, it's not necessarily an easy one to solve. Certainly Webster is going to take a smaller share of the minutes but exactly how much smaller should that share be?
To start answering that question, it's important to get a sense for what situations have led Webster to play his most productive basketball this season and also to determine whether/when his personal success has translated to team success.
Click through for an analysis of Martell Webster's production based on his minutes played and how that might explain Nate McMillan's current decision-making process.
-- Ben Golliver | benjamin.golliver@gmail.com | Twitter
To address these questions, I turned to Basketball-Reference's game logs for Webster this season. I split his 50 games into 5 categories based on minutes played. Those categories....
- Less than 20 minutes played: 10 games
- 21-25 minutes played: 12 games
- 26-32 minutes played: 10 games
- 32-37 minutes played: 9 games
- 38 and more minutes played: 9 games
Note: these categories breakdowns were not 5 clean groups of 10 games because there were a large clusters of games around the 20-22 and 25-27 minute mark.
What jumps out from those categories first is a pretty striking inconsistency in playing time for Webster. This shouldn't really come as a surprise. He's been yanked up and down this season as guys have been injured and then returned from injury. Credit to Webster for maintaining a solid work ethic and team-first attitude throughout.
Now let's take a deeper look at his statistical production when broken down into these categories. The goal is to answer the question, "How many minutes have been ideal for maximizing Martell Webster's production?"
A note on the graphs below. I divvied up Webster's game logs into the 5 categories listed above and looked at Webster's points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks. As Webster's contributions come on both ends of the court, I thought it worthwhile to look at all of these indicators.
I averaged his production within each of the 5 categories and then standardized that production to "Per 48" minute numbers so that we can easily compare how productive he is when he plays lesser minutes to how productive he is when he plays larger minutes. Obviously, he's likely to score more points (or grab more rebounds, or block more shots) when he plays 35 minutes instead of 20 minutes. But is he scoring more points per minute when he plays more minutes or does his production taper off during games where he stays on the court longer?
Let's look first at Webster's scoring.
On the X axis you'll see the 5 categories I've created based on how many minutes Webster played. On the Y axis you'll see his average points per 48 minutes in each category. As you can see, in games that Webster has played less than 20 minutes, he is averaging less than 10 points per 48 minutes. By comparison, in games that Webster played more than 38 minutes, he is averaging more than 20 points per 48 minutes.
Although it's not a perfectly linear relationship, generally speaking, the more minutes that Webster has played the more efficiently he has produced points. It's not just that he's scored more points while playing more minutes, it's that he's scored more points per minute too.
We have a chicken and egg dilemma when interpreting that information. Are the increased points causing the increased minutes or are the increased minutes causing the increased points? On the other side of it, is he playing less minutes because McMillan senses he isn't "on" that night or is he not playing enough minutes to get himself going?
There's not a really solid answer to those questions but the range of variability in his scoring rate is pretty big, much larger than any of the other statistics we'll look at below. The difference between 20 points per 48 minutes and 10 points per 48 minutes is huge. The high end portion of these numbers reflects an increased scoring burden in Roy's absence, McMillan's tendency to stick with Webster when his outside shot is falling and Webster's ability to catch fire. The low end portion of these numbers suggests Webster is a slow-starter and/or prone to enduring some serious stinkers.
What's most interesting about this graph is that you might have expected bench wing shooters to see the reverse trend. When they play few minutes and come in to quickly knock down a few shots, their points per 48 minutes would be sky high. When they are forced to play heavier minutes and are asked to provide more than just instant offense, their points per 48 minutes might taper off. Not so in Webster's case. Indeed, it seems like he needs a relatively significant chunk of minutes (more than 20) to get things rolling.
Here's a scatterplot that helps reinforce this point.
(Thanks to The Invisible Ninja, who you can follow on Twitter here, for the data points to make this scatterplot.)
Each dot represents one of Webster's games this season. On the X axis, you have Webster's minutes played in each game. On the Y axis, you have Webster's Points Per Possession in that game. PPP is a nice baseline measurement of a player's offensive efficiency; it takes into account points scored, fouls drawn, free throws made and turnovers committed. Anything over 1.0 PPP is considered a very good game. You'll see by the trendline and the arrangement of dots that there is a decently strong correlation between Webster's playing time and his scoring efficiency. He plays more, he scores more efficiently.
But you'll also notice the confirmation that when Webster plays his fewest minutes he has his worst games from an efficiency standpoint. He doesn't have a single game yet this season where he played less than 20 minutes and produced a PPP greater than 1.0.
Now, let's compare that to Webster's rebounding.
Again, the X axis represents Webster's playing time and the Y axis represents his average rebounds per 48 minutes in games played in each of these categories. Look at the range here: at the low end he's averaging 6 rebounds per 48 minutes while on the high end he's averaging 8 rebounds per 48 minutes. That's a difference, sure, but not a gigantic one and not nearly as big as the range in his scoring that we discussed above. Just look how much more stable the overall graph is.
While Webster is not an outstanding rebounder at any time, he's solid on a per-minute no matter how many minutes he plays. That's exactly what you want from a role player.
Also note on this graph that his performance hits a high-water mark in the middle and then falls off slightly when he plays heavier minutes. This is to be expected when he has been tasked with playing heavy minutes guarding an opponent's star player and when his offensive responsibilities have increased in Roy's absence.
Now let's look at Webster's passing.
The X axis represents Webster's playing time and the Y axis represents his average assists per 48 minutes in games played in each of these categories. Again, the range here isn't huge because Webster isn't really known as or expected to be a big-time play maker.
This chart shows that Webster averages between 1 and 2 assists per 48 minutes (roughly) no matter how many minutes he plays with one exception. If he plays less than 20 minutes he's more likely than not to fail to record an assist. But his most productive passing games are those when he plays 21-25 minutes a night. These games would seem to find Webster in a supporting role and playing stretches alongside Brandon Roy and/or LaMarcus Aldridge (which helps any Blazers' assist numbers).
Let's turn to Webster's defense.
Here I combined Webster's steals and blocks into a single chart. The X axis represents Webster's playing time and the Y axis represents his combined steals and blocks per 48 minutes in games played in each of these categories. Again, the range here is amazingly small: no matter how much time he's playing, Webster contributes between roughly 1.5 and 2.5 combined steals and blocks per 48 minutes.
Interestingly, his per-minute defensive statistical production is at its highest when Webster plays fewer minutes and tails off a little bit as his minutes increase. This indicates that, unlike his scoring, Webster is able to make an instant impact defensively right off the bat. You definitely like to see this from a role player.
Now, let's put it all together into a crude aggregate production statistic.
In this graph, I've simply added together Webster's average points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in each of the bands. You can see that, generally speaking, Webster's per-minute production increases as his playing time increases. So not only does he produce more when he plays more but he produces more efficiently when he plays more. This chart is probably influenced too strongly by his scoring numbers but his rebounding and defensive production soften it a little bit.
In any case, increased production resulting from increased minutes for a role player is actually exactly what we should have expected. Our dear friend Kevin Pelton has explored this phenomenon before.
Webster's Minutes and Blazers Winning
Webster doesn't exist in a vacuum, though. Instead, he is part of a five man unit and a 12 person team (if they're lucky). So do the Blazers perform as well as Webster when Webster's minutes increase?
Not exactly. Let's take a look at the Blazers' winning percentage in each of the 5 bands.
Interestingly, the Blazers have won their highest percentage of games when Webster has played 21-25 minutes per game. They've falled off sharply when they've had to rely on Webster more. This is almost certainly due in large part to the absence of Roy. Interestingly, though, in Webster's truly big minute nights -- 38 or more -- the Blazers fared incredibly well. Credit Webster where credit is due here.
With Batum's return, though, there simply are not unlimited minutes available for Martell Webster. The days of Webster playing 38 minutes are almost certainly behind us. Thanks to Batum's injury, there isn't a large enough sample size to isolate the exact point Batum's production outpaces Webster's but if we are approaching this like McMillan we are trying to find a role for Webster between, say, 10 and 30 minutes a night.
What we are able to notice, though, is that Webster's offensive production (especially scoring and assisting) has dropped off the table pretty quickly if he doesn't play at least 20 minutes a night. When it comes to rebounding and defense, he's been more consistent no matter how many minutes he plays. Taken together, the per 48 graphs above, according to Pelton, "imply (but not certainly) that you're going to get a worse Webster when you cut his minutes." This is a key consideration and concern for McMillan.
While I still personally believe that Nicolas Batum should be starting immediately and that a decrease in offensive production from Webster (even a large decrease) is acceptable collateral damage, this data should help provide some perspective into McMillan's decision-making process. An inconsistent Webster is useless to him. A consistently productive Webster is a huge asset. A consistently productive Webster and the emerging Nicolas Batum is practically a dream world. For the time being, I think McMIllan is happy to take the heat for not starting Batum if it means Webster sees that sweet spot of 20-25 minutes of playing time, where he has been near his most productive and the team has enjoyed the most success.
So Batum Will Never Start?
I'm definitely not saying that.
Looking at the final chart above, you can see that the Blazers have also played some of their best basketball without major minutes from Webster. You'll also recall that Webster's rebounding and defensive statistics and impact suggest he can make decent contributions in those facets regardless of his playing time.
What we'll likely see, I believe, is a transition process that eventually finds Batum starting and playing heavier minutes while Webster returns to a lesser-minute, rebounding and defense-oriented role player.
For the time being though, McMillan's theory of starting Webster over Batum is, if not preferred by me personally, understandable and reasonable given Webster's numberical body of work. At some point down the road, once we have access to more data about Batum's play, we'll be able to say more authoritatively whether 22 good minutes from Webster and 26 good minutes from Batum is noticeably worse than 15 less-productive minutes from Webster and 33 good minutes from Batum. But, at this point, the sample size is too small and it's fair to say that McMillan is on solid statistical ground when he starts Webster to ensure he can play at least 20-25 minutes a night.
-- Ben Golliver | benjamin.golliver@gmail.com | Twitter
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That is what I have not liked about Webster all the time
Not skilled enough to take the starting role from Nic, yet not the right mindset to come off the bench and be productive. I feel the SF2 position is better suited for someone who can come in and provide hustle and heart and to me Dante fills that role much better in a 15 min role.
Martell is a volume shooter and is not suited to coming off the bench and IMO should be the one who is moved with Blake and possibly Trav(who is a PF BTW) for some C help. Moving Webs and Blake would free up almost 60 min and Websters hot Jan. may give him more trade value.
Bayless and Roy= Fire and Ice (TM)
Spread the word
by SpyderRyder on Feb 3, 2010 4:59 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Trading Blake, Travis, and Martell really only leaves you with Rudy as a 3 point shooter!
Before Nic came back, I thought it was a no brainer to leave Martell in the starting unit, but Nic’s play has certainly made me rethink that (along with Martell’s during the same span). I think one of Martell or Travis needs to be retained. TO has shown an ability to be productive off the bench. I still have to wonder if something will click with Martell one day and he will reach all star level.
Batum is shooting better from 3 this year
And shot better in his rookie year from downtown than Webster did. In actuallity I am in favor of keeping Travis as a stetch 4 ala Rashard, Hakim Warrick, or Charlie V.
And Martell will never be an allstar guarenteed.
Bayless and Roy= Fire and Ice (TM)
Spread the word
by SpyderRyder on Feb 3, 2010 5:46 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Sample size
I love Batum but he hasn’t taken enough threes this year to determine if he’s improved from there.
I think you move Martell or Travis but not both. Travis is better as a PF but can back up Batum after the all-star break as well as taking most of the backup minutes at PF.
If you are so good at predicting the future ....
… shouldn’t you be buying lottery tickets and studying the ponies instead of spending your time here?
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
This is another time that Nate needs to earn his money...
There are more than a few Nate critics in these parts. I’ve been one of them on occasion. Right now, I don’t envy him. I posted a while back that Oden getting hurt made Nate’s job a lot easier in some ways. I guess the same was true with the myriad other injuries we’ve had. Fewer options, fewer decisions to make. An easier job overall, I would think.
I wish we had a way of polling what other NBA coaches would do with our line up (anonymously, of course). It would be very interesting to hear what other coaches have to say. In that it’s not likely this is going to happen, I guess we back row “coaches” will just have to keep giving our opinions.
As for me, I’d start Nic.
Does the data really tell the story?
I think you are forgetting that Nate makes real time decisions during the game on keeping Martell in the game or sitting him. If Martell is playing well, Nate would likely keep him in, if not, he’ll pull him. So obviously, when Martell plays more minutes his stats will be up because his production is up.
Fair enough
but I find it hard to believe that Nate doesn’t have access to analyses very similar to these on all his players. Thus, while he does indeed have to make decisions in real time, he presumably has, or should have, a sense of what he would like to do, or how he would like his rotations to work.
Further, the decision of who is in the starting lineup is made without the benefit of knowing who is hot and who isn’t, because it is a decision made some time before the game.
So you give Martell a minimum of 20 minutes a game
As he gives you good defense and consistent rebounding. If he is hot you juggle your lineups to get him more minutes but not at the expense of batum. It might be at the expense of Cunningham or Howard and maybe even some of Rudy depending on how his game is that night. Heck maybe even some of aldridges pt as well.
#52
Fantastic
Once again.
A positive attitude will not solve all of your problems but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort - Herm Albright
Keep the faith.
For me it is simple
Martel needs to start and has earned it despite his inconsistency. Batum doesn’t need to start, he is effective off the bench. Let Marty get his minutes early, see if he’s hot. If he is then ride him like a pony, if he’s not, sit him down. He has shown that he can take it. Though He is the more fragile of the two so pulling him from starting could/would prove a problem.
Seems like we’re creating a thing that isn’t a thing. Who starts is mostly irrelevent anyway. Nate is doing his best job of coaching ever of late and is playing guys based on their play on a given night. Keeping guys in when they’re playing well and pulling guys that start making mistakes or are tired. Oft the same thing.
Batum still can’t buy beer and clearly, to even the layest of laymen, a superstar in the making. Not the BS NBA hype superstar but a real basketball greastness style superstar. He’s like twelve years old too. He can wait. Let’s develop our other young guy and have the best one two punch in the league. Sometimes we can combine them even for the knockout.
by Emperor_Doom on Feb 3, 2010 5:48 PM PST reply actions
Martell has struggled the last few games.
Brandon has been absent the last few games. Coincidence?
It seems that Martell really benefits off of Roy breaking down the defense. The corner three is Marty’s shot, and with Roy in he takes them in abundance. Posting Batum in the corner waiting for a kickout, however, seems like a waste of his talents.
Over all playing Webster with Roy and Batum with the freeflowing offense of Rudy and Miller seems like a win-win situation. Probably can’t justify not starting Batum after this season, but for right now coach has found a combination that is paying dividends. I like it and hope he sticks with it.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
Ben, I recommend you compare +/- per minute vs playing time per game
I think this would tell us a lot on how effective Martell has been overall, PPM being necessarily limited. Marty has improved his RBs and D enough that he is impacting the game in other areas even when not scoring (against most opponents). We have enough data now for +/- to be predictive.
Not only do I feel it is a shame laughing off starting Batum, I think it is a shame laughing off starting Rudy, too. If Rudy were not just coming off back surgery, this would have been the perfect time to test him to see how good he could be at SG.
On the other hanf, this is not an effective test for Bayless because obviously he is starting alongside another PG (IMHO a damned good one).
Sometimes Nate does odd things. He is no where near as straightforward in his decisionmaking as the Blazer organization wants us to think. But he is oddly stubborn in what he believes.
Ironic
If Rudy were not just coming off back surgery, this would have been the perfect time to test him to see how good he could be at SG…On the other hand, this is not an effective test for Bayless because obviously he is starting alongside another PG
Last year when Blake was out I reasoned that it would be a good time to start Bayless alongside Roy and keep Sergio coming off the bench with Rudy. This year when Roy goes down for awhile, Rex starts while Rudy remains a reserve. Of course, acquiring Andre Miller has changed the equation at PG, but as long as Blake is around the Jerryd’s development at PG will remain on hold
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Rec for working in a slam on Blake in a Martell / Nic post.
Not really though. But I at least wanted to make sure the effort didn’t go unnoticed.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Bayless v. Rudy
Bayless plays a far more similar game to Roy than Rudy does. Bayless is able to run the same plays they call for Roy – I don’t think this would be Rudy’s forte.
"My shoulder is OK. And away we go." -- Nic Batum
"wang-dang diddly wubba SPROING wow-wow" -- Dave
that's true
but if you look at the two players in terms of experience, Rudy has played much more pro ball than Jerryd, and last year the reason Nate gave for starting Sergio (when Blake was out) was that he had been in the Blazer’s system longer
I wonder where Rudy’s head is at, considering that he was the #2 option at SG when the season started, but (perhaps due to his back injury) he hasn’t been Nate’s choice to start at the 2 while Roy has been out
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Granted
However, I see Rudy playing a similar role to Bayless as Blake has played to Roy – wait for the pass for the open three or get free for a midrange jumper. Rudy brings far more offensive weapons to the table than Blake (being able to leak out for an ally oop, for example) so it isn’t a perfect comparison. However, I think Bayless + Rudy are also far more suited for a run and gun / fast break game than Roy and Blake (can’t speak for Roy + Miller as we haven’t seen enough of that combination yet).
"My shoulder is OK. And away we go." -- Nic Batum
"wang-dang diddly wubba SPROING wow-wow" -- Dave
I agree with including +/-
I’m generally not a big fan of that stat, but over the course of a season, I think it can be fair measure of the value a player brings to his team.
The other aspect that might have helped explain some of the variation in Martell’s minutes analysis would be a timeline marked with certain events. For example, as Ben notes, when Roy got hurt, the Blazers probably look to Martell to score more. So not only does he play more minutes, he gets more shots/minute. A similar albeit smaller impact may have been felt when Rudy went out.
Conversely, when Greg & Joel got hurt, did Martell’s minutes go up because all the forwards had to pick up some slack? And did his defensive burden increase because he no longer had a post presence to back him up., which arguably might lead to a drop off in his perimeter defense.
In other words, how do changes in Portland’s available roster affect Martell’s minutes and the demands placed upon him?
Great stuff Ben,
my personal opinion, Martells trade value will never be higher than it is right now. We still have Travis coming back, and Claver in Spain…..
Something has to give at some point, and the Blazers need another big man for the playoffs.
Small ball does not win championships.....
Go Blazers !!
Good stuff
another chart I would like to see is the relationship of Webster’s shots per game and his shooting percentage. My naked-eye impression is that he needs several minutes to “warm up” before he gets his jumper dialed in, which would argue against a 6th man bench role for Martell, or that he might be called upon as an effective late-game sniper who Nate could send into the game for a 3pt opportunity.
If Marty needs 20-25 mpg to be effective, the resulting 23-28 mpg at the SF position is not enough PT for Batum’s natural progression into NBA stardom…and that’s assuming Roy never plays another minute at the 3, which in turn would squeeze Rudy and Bayless’ PT at the 2
We’ve known there’s a logjam at the wing and guard positions for awhile now, its just that it’s been difficult to keep all the players healthy. It’s becoming clearer which players are the “keepers” and who will need to be pruned, but only KP can make that happen
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Martell turning his head twice at the end will give Nate and excuse to start Batum. Great job Martell,
way to help the team out.
yep
Marty gets posterized by AK47, over and over
I was multi-tasking for much of the game (inevitable outcome) but I couldn’t help thinking to myself on those baseline blow-bys “where’s Nic?”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Scoring VS shooting percentage
Tonight’s game against Utah offers a clearer picture of Martel’s contributions VS Batum’s.
Martel’s stats look good: 38 minutes and 20 points
What Ben failed to chart or point out was Martel’s shooting percentage (this season: .397FG, .371 3PT).
Tonight Martel went 8-17FG, 3-9 3PT, 3Rbs, 1Ast, 2Sts (/- -14)
What did his man do? 8-9FG, 6-7FT, 6Rbs, 8Ast, 2St, 2BS (/- +11)
What did Batum do with his 14 minutes? Perfect shooting: 3-3FG, 2-2 3PT, 8Pts (+/- +2)
You can only wonder if Martel is being “show-cased” or what man-love Nate really has for Martel.
The real question is Martell vs. Rudy.
If Rudy was traded away, Roy, Nic, and Marty could share the wing minutes. Marty could play 14 minutes at the 3, and 14 minutes at the 2. I think in some facets of the game Marty is better than Rudy (defense and rebounding) and he is a better small forward than Rudy. Rudy is a slightly better creator, a better ball handler and passer, and could play PG in a pinch. We have 3 guys who are better PGs than Rudy, but only 1 who is a better SF. I’m not decided yet on who the better long term back up SG is between the two of them. Marty may be more willing to play a significant long term back up role than Rudy, although we really don’t know. Time will tell. Rudy certainly has more trade value, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he is the better fit for us.
Batum been in the pros longer than martel
I think Batum should start, He has nore time in the pros in euorpe hes play against men
at early age.which make him better than martel,I would put martel in the second unit but still play him 24mintes a game.Trade blake, traives and Bayless if we trade anyone
Put Roy at the point at times martel at the 2
What is with fans infatuation with starting?
Are Manu Ginobili and his coach the only two people in the world who don’t care about who starts?
All this clamoring for Batum to start sounds a lot like Andre Miller.
It's one of the steps in convincing one's self that they are knowledgeable enough ....
… to be an NBA coach or GM.
To be fair, it probably qualifies them to be an expert. Of course the number of experts out there (our own Dave exempted) who know what they are talking about the majority of time can be counted on one hand of a lousy electrician. (I’m referring to the guys who get paid to do it.)
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Agreed, but...
there are some players who fare better than others coming off the bench. As I recall, John Havlicek spent much of his storied career as a sixth man, but was always on the floor in crunch time.
It may be that Martell performs better in the starting lineup than he does coming off the bench. Remember, when you come off the bench, much of the flow, tempo, and style of the game have already been established, and a player has to either fit in with that, or be able to change the game to accommodate his style. A starter, however, is on the floor during the moments when the game’s ebb and flow first starts to become apparent.
There is also the intangible that many players seem to feel — being a starter almost seems like a bit of an honorific. I could picture Batum being the type of person who is comfortable coming off the bench and Martell being a person who needs to be a starter to feel needed.
by hercher on Feb 4, 2010 9:28 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Well said
I actually think both guys are fine with coming off the bench, it’s just that Martell doesn’t seem to perform as well. It might be mental or the ebb and blow thing you mentioned.
My comment was more in regards to fans perception and how they are practically insulted if their favorite player is not starting.
You took the words right out of my hands.
What is the big deal about starting anyway? As long as Batum finishes games, what’s the big deal? This team has had to change personnel on the starting lineup far too much already and you all want some more? Just before Roy got injured, we were playing as well as we have all year. Batum’s shoulder does not look 100% yet so he’s better off playing with the 2nd unit. What I like about the 2nd unit is the energy that they bring, Bayless, Rudy, Batum and Dante are all high energy guys. They complement each other really well and it would be a shame to break it up.
Besides Webster has earned his spot and while Batum has mostly outplayed since he’s been back, it still does not compare with what Martell has done all season long. The one to blame here is Kevin Pritchard. Don’t forget that Outlaw is coming back in a couple weeks and you know that Nate will play him at SF too. Just when Dante is starting to put some good games together, Travis comes back to take his minutes away. If we are going to build a team to compete int he Playoffs then we need to develop out young players. Sure the older guys can help but only if they have been there themselves and Blake and Outlaw aren’t experienced (Playoffs only) enough to help. Trade Blake and Outlaw but not Webster or Rudy. I’d only trade Rudy or Webster for a really good player i.e Igoudala, Jamison.
Webster needs only 20-25 minutes a night anyway so whats the big deal with that? Its not like Batum is ready to play 30+ minutes so why would we trade Webster now?
by VinnyB on Feb 4, 2010 4:13 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
While I'm not always that high on some of your opinions Ben, ....
… your analysis and explanatory efforts are first rate. I for one appreciate the work you do greatly.
As can be expected, we are seeing continued player bashing with the usual sprinkling of obligatory trade proposals in the comment section. Which is a shame when you consider how fortunate we are to have the collection of guys we do.
Martell Webster is having a fine season and yet people can’t appreciate that because they are convinced there’s somebody better. Also forgotten is that Martell doing it after missing an entire year or that he’s all of 24 (or is it 23) years old. As for Nic, he just turned 21 and is only in his second season. What’s the rush to annoint him as a must to start? Least we forget, one of Portland’s best ever small forwards – Jerome Kersey – was a bench player his first three seasons on the team, even though he showed great potential. If Ben’s analysis is showing that Webster is a very productive player when he’s getting around 25 minutes, then give him those minutes. That still leaves the same amount of playing time for Batum. There is plenty of time for Nic to grow and the odds are he’s going to be a starter again. But it doesn’t have to be this season or next. From the indications I’ve seen, Nic wants to play basketball and it’s not that big of a deal whether he starts the game or not. In fact he shows a greater degree of maturity about the issue that a lot of fans.
If I’m in McMillan’s shoes, it’s a problem I’d beg to have. Two talented, outstanding young men who want to work hard and are as committed to team success as much as they are to personal success.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
What I don't understand
Is that it seems a lot of Blazers fans want 5 starters and then no one else on the team that is talented enough to challenge the starters for minutes.
That is because those players will never have to start...ever
If you have starter talent on the bench they will all want to start and will be unhappy if they don’t start and will demand a trade if their demands to start aren’t met ….so it is better to trade them now while their value is high and get a nonstarter talent guy to replace them …because these type of guys will know that they are not starters and will never demand to start. Also it should be noted that starters will never become non-starters …it just doesn’t happen (and they will always demand a trade if they are not starting). Conversely …non-starters (after their rookie years anyway) never become good enough to start. It is important to note that these role will always be determined in their 2nd year in the league (sometimes even in their rookie years), regardless of their actual age.
" Welcome to the Bedge....where good, is never good enough"…Rudiculous
by 92wastheyear on Feb 4, 2010 8:33 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't buy this argument.
In the first place, it pretty much is an argument for having a guy with less talent in place of one with more. You are going to have to make a very convincing case for why I should do this.
As for these guys “knowing” they are not starter quality, nor ever wanting to start …..
….. uh, never mind. I forgot to consider the source. (What was it you were saying about my being stupid only 70 – 80 times or so?)
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
by timg56 on Feb 4, 2010 11:33 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
They don't want 5 starters Tom.
They want 5 all-stars starting. To me, that’s the thinking of a retard. (Note to any sensitive types not named Rahm Emmanual – you can’t tell from just reading it, but I’m using the same pronunciation as the bearded guy in Hangover used. Totally different word from the one you may be thinking I’m using.) (It may mean the same, bnut a totally different word none the less.)
Getting back to the discussion, it should go without saying that you can’t have a team of 5 all-stars and a bunch of filler. At the very minimum you also need a 6th Man winner (preferrably one who has gotten it more than once) and a perrenial Defensive Player of the Year winner. Yep, without 7 guys like that, forget about winning a championship. Oh, and an instant offense guy off the bench. Got to have that as well. So 8 guys. With 8 guys like this you have a chance. Did I remember the bruising backup PF? Ok, 9 guys. But that’s it, tops. And you probably only need that last guy if your all-star PF is a bit on the soft side.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
“Nic wants to play basketball and it’s not that big of a deal whether he starts the game or not.”
From everything I’ve read and heard from Martell, he feels the same way. I don’t know if we have enough data on either player. Martell’s time off the bench earlier this season was also while he was getting his rhythm back after a full season of rehab.
As far as I'm concerned, who starts and how many minutes each gets ....
…. is the domain of Nate McMillan. I’m not going to try to claim that I think I know what the answers to those questions are. I am pointing out that it really shouldn’t matter to us
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
To be honest
I think the better player should get the most minutes, I just think making a big deal out of who is the starter is just creating controversy for the sake of creating controversy.
I would think
that Nate will start Batum eventually, simply because he may wish to establish the team defensively right out of the blocks. I just see this as a good philosophy, and was the reason they started him last year over Outlaw.
It often is a trade of offense vs defense, but if Batum improves his offense (which it looks like he has) then He wins the minutes by default (even at the end of games)
Makes sense if you get both offense and defense out of one player.
I remember back before last year that Nate would take out Pryz when he thought he needed offense and left the team quite vulnerable on defense and rebounding. So in effect you rob Peter to pay Paul when you have to shuffle one (or two) dimensional players to keep both offense and defense in tact.
Yeah, I think Nic will start too
He’s obviously tender after the injury, there are other reasons beyond that, but that issue alone should keep people from wanting to push Batum too fast. My guess is fans want Batum to start so he’ll get injured again so that they can watch Miller get more minutes.
I don't get the idea that if a guy has been hurt, it's better to bring him off the bench
You warm up, get stretched out, then start the half on the floor while you’re still loose. For Nic to sit for 10+ minutes after pregame warm-ups isn’t exactly doing his shoulder any favors
Same thing for Rudy and his back, or Roy and his hammy. The decision who starts and who doesn’t shouldn’t be made based on “this guy’s been hurt and we want to ease him back in…” If he’s really still dinged up, he’s at just as much risk of re-injury in the 10th minute of the half as he would be in the 1st, and possibly more because all the pregame stretching that was done earlier is now of less effect
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
that makes perfect sense to me
at some point this team will have to start to establish rotations. A set group of 8, maybe 9, players. It will be tough to determine that group this year, because of all the uncertainty (injuries) and the fact that clear winners of those minutes have not yet emerged.
We have a group of average to above average players(outside of the core group) that bring something different to the party. (many of these players are still not fully developed, so you don’t know how they can play with a compliment of more minutes)
What has made it more difficult was the apparent adoption of Nate’s vision of what this team will look like? If we are an exclusive Roy/ half court team then players will be selected based on that. Playing without Roy has given the team a new look and some proven new approaches. Myself, I think it’s a mistake to not take advantage of the youth on this team.
Therefore, we should exploit the values of a defensive minded fast breaking unit that ends up as a full time signature for this team. It doesn’t exclude the half court sets that Roy is accustomed to, it just eliminates the automatic slowdown we seem so set on.
This is why it will be a tough job to determine who the future players on this team will be. (IMO We have an identity question based on the players we currently have)
Who is more effective in the open court game? Batum tops the list, Rudy, LMA, Bayless and actually everyone else except Roy.( a great player,our star, franchise, etc. but isn’t comfortable in the up-tempo open court game)
even Pryz and Oden through blocks, rebounds, outlets, etc.
I guess I drifted off subject, but I think Batum may leave us some hope for some open court play. He may even emerge as the # 2 star behind Roy…We can’t put this guy on the bench (the doctors have cleared this guy to play and like you said, playing right out of the blocks makes more sense than sitting.

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