Rudygate Reaction
by Dave on Feb 25, 2010 12:35 AM PST
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PrintYou all have had a chance to discuss it but I'm getting multiple requests for a response to the Rudy Fernandez quotes from Spain yesterday, implying that he's not happy with his situation and would consider returning to his homeland. So here you go.
First of all, if you're surprised by this you're probably also surprised that Brett Michaels isn't actually going to marry the chick who won Rock of Love 8 (or whatever they're up to). With the year Rudy was having I'd be shocked if he got through the season without this kind of thing happening. I've mentioned that long before yesterday, I believe. These guys are superstars in their home countries. For the most part the only media folks that want to talk to them consistently come from their native land. But those folks want to talk to them a lot. And they all have the same questions: Rudy, why aren't you playing more? Rudy, when will you be an NBA superstar like you were here? Rudy, are you happy? Rudy, when are you coming home? It's one thing when your season is going decently, even if it's not everything you expected. You can be coy and play the game. But when your year has gone to pot so far, what are you supposed to say? "Why yes, I am planning on becoming a superstar soon. Yes, it will be with this team because I am happy here. I know I'm averaging fewer minutes and points than last year but this is all part of the plan. You'll see!" Even with the best of intentions you can't give that interview with a straight face. When you're struggling you wouldn't be human if you didn't mention that you felt stuck playing behind Roy, that you wish you could do more, that it's not easy to deal with. This is not the same as your garden-variety NBA player going to the national (or local) media to demand a trade. It's more like your garden-variety NBA player getting interviewed by his hometown paper, giving answers to people who worship him, letting them know that he's still alive, still a great player, and still planning to fulfill his dreams even though they don't see him as routinely.
Naturally there are two sides to the story. Rudy hasn't been playing well enough to worry about minutes. He has improved his defensive and rebounding presence this year, which is to the good, but the primary reason to have him on the floor remains offense. His offensive confidence is low...shockingly so in some games. He's passing up shots he used to hit in his sleep. He's hesitating in situations where he used to act so quickly you couldn't track him. He's not been Rudy since he returned from injury. You can talk about coaching or teammates or astrology or whatever you wish but the fact remains this is the NBA. You must perform. You cannot give up that which makes you special (and marketable) or else you will not play. In 10 minutes or 30 it's up to the player to produce. If he can't, he cannot blame anyone but himself. As Mike Barrett aptly stated in tonight's broadcast, if every performance reflected the one we saw in Toronto we wouldn't be having this conversation. As much as people want to bag on Nate McMillan, players from Martell Webster to Travis Outlaw to Jarrett Jack to Sergio Rodriguez to Nicolas Batum to Jerryd Bayless have gotten the chance for more minutes as they've played better. Some have prospered with those minutes, some have fallen on their faces, some have been up and down, but they do get their chance, as Rudy has (and certainly will again.)
On the other hand you can understand Rudy's frustration completely. He plays a different style than most of his teammates. He came from a system where he was able to fill multiple roles and explore his potential to contribute. The NBA is far more specialized. For all of their skill the vast majority of players make a living doing one or two things extremely well. At least on this team (and to be fair on many) those one or two things don't include covering as much of the court on both ends as Rudy tries to. The Blazers don't play his type of offense. He has to find his niches here and he's struggled to do so. The Blazers haven't made it easy, either. Rudy himself identifies a key problem: he's playing behind an All-NBA player who averages 37 minutes per game. He can switch positions as he did tonight but then another young, hungry player (in this case both Batum and Webster) get under-played, creating the same problem in somebody else's home paper. Whatever Rudy had in mind coming to the league it didn't involved picking up scrap minutes off the bench. He's going to want to start, if not become a star. If there's not opportunity to do that on this team then it's not his ideal situation. It's perfectly accurate to say this isn't fair to him, at least from his perspective. He shouldn't be content with the way things are right now.
You have the potential for a toxic spiral here: less-than-ideal situation, underperforming player. How do you fix it? We saw the short-term answer tonight. Just hit your shots. Nobody at this point is expecting Rudy to be an All-Star. He'll be valuable if he can simply hit that three-pointer for this team. As long as he's doing that the passes, rebounds, and spectacular layups are much-appreciated gravy. If he's not doing it the spiral is going to continue. Some will ask why it can't be the other way...why the spiral can't be broken by Nate simply giving him more minutes to perform in. We just explained it above. More minutes for Rudy means fewer for someone else. The coach cannot look his other players in the eye and say Batum or Webster or Miller or Bayless has to sit so Rudy can get back on track. Not only is it royally unfair to those players, by putting players other than the ones performing best out there he's given the rest of the team an agenda besides winning. Maybe you get away with that with a guy like Brandon or LaMarcus who's your star. Maybe you even get away with it for a while with a veteran carrying a proven track record. But a second-year guy like Rudy who's standing in a thicket of young guys just like him all trying to earn the same minutes? You're going to kill the team doing that. If the roster gets thinned out, that's different. But right now it's pretty draconian. Hit your shots and the playing time will come.
My guess is that this matter will be resolved exactly this way. Rudy's not going to miss forever. At some point we're going to see a consistent return of the old Rudy confidence coupled with some of the nice little things Rudy is doing this year. At that point minutes will be found for him.
I believe a longer-term solution is coming down the pike as well. Either Rudy is going to be part of a more orderly Blazer roster or Rudy will be traded to make the roster more orderly for someone else. Which way that scale tips will depend on his performance, his long-term goals, and how many different positions he can fill on this team. Rudy will be criminally easy to move in a trade package if it comes to that. I don't think it would take too much of a nudge to make him more comfortable here either. One possibility would be to relieve the Raptors of their rather expensive back-up point guard this summer. Provided the Blazers' pocketbook could stand it and they had confidence in their frontcourt to make up for a whole host of backcourt defensive sins, running Calderon, Fernandez, and Batum mixed in with Roy would nearly automatically create more motion in the offense. This is just an off-the-cuff example, of course, but it does illustrate that staying or leaving, the Fernandez issue is nowhere close to insoluble.
As far as Fernandez' ability to just pack up and leave, this is a murky area. I am asking around for opinions and counsel and should be able to give a better report soon. Here is my gut-level reaction (which may be wrong).
Leagues have procedures for players under contract coming from Europe to the U.S. This involves buyout terms set in a player's contract which, when met, free him from further obligation and allow him to make the switch. No reciprocal buyout terms exist in NBA contracts to my knowledge. However any player can retire from the league for any reason at any time (indentured servitude being illegal in this country). To do so he only need file with the league. According to Larry Coon's salary cap site he would go onto a Voluntarily Retired list, forego all the remaining salary on his contract, and would not be able to return to the NBA for one year. Theoretically this means that Rudy could "retire" at any time, head home, and play for anyone he wants. He could likely return to the NBA after a year as well, although there again you run into murky waters. If a drafted player's rights are owned by a team and that player cannot reach an agreement with said team, instead signing in another professional league, the player's rights are retained by the drafting team for a year after the player quits playing overseas. Would the same hold true of a player who "retired" in such a way? If not, the NBA would likely fix that loophole. It's also possible that this eventuality is already covered in the CBA but it hasn't been brought to light because the situation hasn't come up.
That said, you have to consider international law and the fraternity among professional sports leagues here. Should the NBA for whatever reason decide that voluntary retirement was not a kosher way to get out of a contract for these purposes Rudy would pretty much be stuck, at least if he wanted to play basketball for a living. They could sue in international court for breach of contract, with Rudy trying to walk out on a legally-executed deal in order to work for a competing agency. European leagues would also be reticent to facilitate this kind of move. The implications for players moving not only across the pond but from league to league in Europe are frightening.
My guess is that whatever outs may technically exist (or at least appear to exist) in the NBA-CBA language in reality the legal and fraternal issues would prove stronger. This is why you don't see players jumping ship whenever convenient. As I said, I'm sure more information will be forthcoming in the comment section and via e-mail. If anyone sorts this out with authority I'll let you know.
My even stronger guess is that we're nowhere near this being a serious issue for Rudy at this point...that the noise is overwhelming reality. The only time we'll have to worry about losing Rudy is when his contract expires or when we trade him. Until then he's a Blazer.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Excellent write-up Dave
I believe a longer-term solution is coming down the pike as well. Either Rudy is going to be part of a more orderly Blazer roster or Rudy will be traded to make the roster more orderly for someone else.
I think is going to happen at the end of season. A lot is riding on przy and oden so depending on how they are coming along, that will answer questions regarding our front court, but with blake and outlaw traded if we decide to pick them up at the end of the year we are going to have another mess in the back. My guess is the organization knows this and is evaluating who is on the ins and who is on the outs. I like Rudy but I can see him going either way frankly. They are going to have to pull the trigger on somebody. I guess we will know soon enough.
#52. Get well soon.
by Eat Politicians on Feb 25, 2010 1:03 AM PST reply actions
This is that same "boil the talent down" angle we've been waiting for forever now.
From the perspective of a general NBA fan, we keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.
It’s going to be really fun to see whether he can make that transition as a GM. Everyone sort’ve expected it to happen with something like Raef’s expiring…. but no.
"It has come to the editor’s attention that the Herald-Leader neglected to cover the civil rights movement. We regret the omission."
Despite Nate's success, I think a coaching change will be evaluated this off season as well.
If that’s the case, personnel changes will, no doubt, hinge on any coaching change that is made as well.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
yep
it’s pretty much got to be Rudy or Bayless packaged with Miller for a new starting PG (Harris/Calderon/etc), leaving the other to be the 3rd guard, then go find a cheap reliable 4th guard
OR
Rudy or Bayless packaged with Przybilla for a new big man who can play both the 4 and 5.
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
Agree
In my dream world, it’ll be Miller and Bayless traded for Harris. Although Calderon would be okay too.
by desperationshot on Feb 25, 2010 1:33 PM PST up reply actions
i love that deal this summer
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
Rudy's comments on Oregonlive
Fernandez refuted a Spanish newspaper account that he is unhappy in Portland and looking to sign with Real Madrid. “Right now, my heart is in Portland. It doesn’t matter if the newspapers talk about me, my contract is in Portland, and I’m happy in Portland.”
I hope it’s true.
by kMak on Feb 25, 2010 1:18 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Rudy expressed frustration with Blake getting minutes at SF ahead of him
and really, how can you defend Blake playing SF over Rudy (in the three guard lineup?) Especially when Blake was playing so poorly at the time.
That said, there obviously isn’t room for Martell, Batum and Rudy on the same team. Especially since Roy is going to pick up minutes at the 3.
I’m not buying the notion that role players earn time strictly on how they just performed. Punitive minute allocation is a recipe for failure. Either everyone gets the same opportunity to fail/succeed, or you foment discontent.
What bugs me most is that players are asked to play roles – play those roles – but then are treated as if they made mistakes and someone else gets their minutes.
indeed
roleplayers are always going to put up astonishing numbers, some nights they might swing the ball more or spend more energy on defense…I don’t want to see Batum’s minutes go down even if he isn’t an offensive monster because of what he brings defensively…
#52. Get well soon.
by Eat Politicians on Feb 25, 2010 1:37 AM PST up reply actions
Blake's role on this team is hard to understand.
Whereas I think Dave is saying that if you perform, Nate will give you an opportunity, you have to be careful how you define “perform”. Players getting the most minutes in his system aren’t simply the “best” players. Rather, they provide something to a greater extent that Nate values. Whether he values the “right” qualities is certainly an important question.
To take Rudy as an example: here is a player who does not take exemplary care of the ball, prefers to dart around trying to make something happen rather than lurking dutifully on the perimeter in case Brandon should need him as an outlet. You wouldn’t call him a great defensive player, probably not even a decent one in the conventional sense. Yet—and I say this without a shred of statistical evidence to bake me up—his presence on the court is a net plus for the Blazers. His risky passing pays off more often than not, he gets a fair number of steals, he creates extra possessions with his hustle, and he buries the 3-pointer when you really need it. He is a clutch player, but I don’t think Nate believes in that concept.
#52
by CatMan2 on Feb 25, 2010 1:55 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Rudy is second in the league in steals coming off the bench
Rudy plays ACB ball. You are open, you can shoot it, shoot it. He is not tentative, and neither should other Blazers be.
Is this true?
I heard Rice say this night, but I always assume he is making those stats up.
Playoff push, oh yeah!
to play devil's advocate
how much of that is because his shot has been off and how much is it because he is afraid of getting the hook for missing?
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
I don't know the reason.
I was just repeating what has been reported. I could assume it was because of lack of confidence, lack of timing, lack of conditioning due to resent injury. Could be from fear of getting punished. Ask Rudy.
hg
If he is being tentative with his shot ...
… because he is afraid of getting pulled, he doesn’t belong on the court in the first place.
I have always thought that was one of the most bs positions I ever heard (not saying you are bs doug – just the idea that players should be afraid of failure). In an environment as competative as the NBA, it all comes down to performance, as Dave just took such great pains to tell us. If you fail to perform, tough. If you fail because you are afraid of failing, not only is that tough, it also marks you as stupid. I doubt the average NBA player is either stupid or so lacking in confidence that he spends a lot of time worrying about failing. If anything, I’d say too many of them have perhaps an exagerated opinion of their capabilities.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
by timg56 on Feb 25, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He is also Tentative with driving
Looking to be bailed out by the officials and more focused on the contact than finishing. I think he is either hurting some or the hard fouls he got a few games back are part of his playing his own Mind games
by Hermistonmelons on Feb 25, 2010 6:55 PM PST up reply actions
i don't think the logjam is rudy/batum/martell
but rather it’s rudy/bayless. we really only have space to develop and play one of them going forward as our 3rd guard, unless you subscribe to the theory that we can play a 3-guard rotation with the two of them and Roy.
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
If it were me I'd be looking to move Bayless and Webster.
I’d be looking for a pure 1 or a 4 that can block out on a free throw attempt
Playoff push, oh yeah!
with Aldridge finally putting down some big shots in the 4th
my only real knock on him now is his inability to rebound a missed free throw. Seriously whats up with that?
by Billy Hoyle on Feb 25, 2010 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
Have you forgotten
Rudy spent the beginning of the year in turmoil because of that time Nate thought it was fatigue from the summer play, then he was in turmoil because he was having back spasms, what then was contributed to much playing time in the summer play, Then he was diagnosed as having a disc slippage and had to have surgery. Then he was in turmoil because he couldn’t be on the court. Now he is in turmoil because he blames his lack of performance on lack of playing time. Can you tell me why that is the Blazers fault? Can you tell me how long it takes to get your game back after surgery? Can you tell me when did Nate have the chance to keep him in the game to build chemistry? How was Nate going to give Rudy equal time to screw up when he wasn’t available for equal time? Martell got the time because Rudy and Nic weren’t available, that is plain and simple the fact.
We all know Rudy and Nic are fantastic pieces, but it takes time to get the game back from an injury. Steve played ahead of Rudy because physically Rudy couldn’t handle long minutes and up until now he hasn’t produced.
Yes, I can defend Blake playing ahead of Rudy when he was playing poorly because Rudy was also playing poorly and couldn’t be depended on because of back problems.
This has been a very bad year for injuries, and Rudy was a part of it, Therefore go back and evaluate the whole year as it happened and look at the whole picture. IMO, Rudy didn’t play as much as he should have due to physical ailments due to fatigue and injury, nothing else.
Well maybe Nate does cater to seniority a might.
hg
It would be different if the guys playing ahead of Rudy were performing better
but when Rudy was sitting, it was for guys that weren’t doing anything at all. Blake was terrible early in the season – and started and came off the bench ahead of Rudy. We know Rudy was injured – but you can’t argue he wasn’t jerked around in the rotation.
Of all the complaints that people have come up with regarding Nate’s coaching – there are two that stand out to me: 1) rotation management; 2) offensive schemes.
It’s easy to say players will get the time if they earn it, but it is just as easy to see players do exactly what is asked and still have their minutes redacted.
by blacknoiseNW on Feb 25, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
In who's opinion was the players in front of him was playing worst?
Nate had said that Rudy’s back was bothering him and he was trying to give him rest. If Steve went out and missed a bunch of shots and Webster went out and missed a bunch of shots and Rudy went out and missed a bunch of shots, how can you tell which one was doing nothing to help the team. I have to be honest, I don’t know, I also cannot disagree with you on the 2 things that stand out in complaint about Nate. All I am saying is due to all the circumstances and for whatever Rudy’s bad play was caused from, It was the continues change of injuries that caused the problem not Nate.
hg
The 3 guard line up may have been a test
to see who stays, who goes. As far as I’m concerned every minute Blake was on the floor and Miller was on the floor was competition for the right to stay on this team.
Miller won, which is very good, because he was brought in after Blake’s CHOKE performance in the playoffs last year.
"Oh, and Ted, give my love to the Princesses. Ted2: Who? Ted: You'll see." - Ted, to himself on his and Bill's excellent adventure.
Wasn't there an article last year about how role players put up better numbers
when they’re getting more significant roles (Millsap I think was the test case).
Rudy and Batum should get the wing minutes Roy doesn’t get. They’re our two next best players, and should be getting the leftover minutes. Dividing minutes this many ways hurts all players involved and actually perpetuates the inconsistency (players with less minutes by rule are less consistent).
Point Guards: Miller (30) / Bayless (18) / Mills (Leftovers)
Wings: Roy (38) / Batum (30) / Rudy (28) / Webster (Leftovers)
Bigs: Aldridge (38) / Camby (32) / Cunningham (26) / Howard-Pendergraph (Leftovers)
I'm an advocate of Rudy and Batum...
but saying they are better players than Webster is arguable. The problem with all three (and Bayless) is that none of them have shown consistency whether they are given the minutes or not. Webster has shown glimmers of hope when getting consistent minutes when both Rudy and Batum were down. He put a pretty good stretch together for a while but obviously just lost his starting role to Batum due to his own inconsistency. The only thing we can say about this group is that they are consistently inconsistent…which makes Nate’s job that much harder because he’s trying to figure out who’s going to be hot or not. That being said, Nate’s done a pretty good job. His fallback is to play the matchups and allocate the minutes based on that approach.
We'll miss you #2 & #25!
I have a hard time believing that Aldridge is not the next best player after Roy.
With Greg poised to be third, possibly moving all the way up to 1.
And Martell ranks right up there with NIc and Rudy with regard to talent.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
obviously Aldridge is next best
I was talking about the wing players and minutes (as you can tell from my minute chart). Rudy and Batum are well ahead of Martell overall and should be getting those minutes.
I read the sentence literally and missed that you were only refering to the wings.
I can’t say that I agree with the position that Rudy and Nic are well ahead of Martell in talent and ability. I could agree that Batum has a chance to eventually be the best of the bunch.
I should disclose that I’ve consistently said I think Webster is going to turn Portland’s Big 3 into a Big 4. In some ways I think he has shown more growth and development to his game than any other Blazer. I also think that he has more to show us.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Great read. I predict Rudy’s gone in the offseason, and the team brings in a PG (Calderon is a possibility). Bayless then assumes the role of backup SG, albeit undersized a la Ben Gordon (minus the shooting touch).
Whether it’s fair or unfair that the comments received this much run, whether they accurately convey Rudy’s feelings, next year is the year for a strong run to the playoffs with this group. The front office won’t want to run the risk of a crucial role player stirring up the pot, unwittingly or otherwise.
"I take the little gummy bear Flintstones vitamins…I try not to eat the lady. I try not to eat the man. Just give me the car. I try to find the car. Yea, worst case scenario, I eat the lady." - Ron Artest, 2009
If Rudy is truly unhappy they would trade him.
If not it would be more likely that they will at least wait a year hoping to get more of the pieces playing together to see what they may or may not have. why trade off part of the future if we don’t know yet what pieces we have. Will Joel be back? Will Greg play a longer role? Will Rudy become more of the player he was after getting his game back coming off an injury? Will Martell start getting more consistent? because he is also recovering from an injury. Will we attempt to get Travis and, or Steve back? If not, does that make Rudy less expendable?
To many questions to be predicting what the front office will be doing with Rudy this off season. As of right now I would predict that Martell is gone and Rudy stays, but that too is a premature prediction.
hg
I don't want to be disrespectful
but I don’t think the likes of Kevin Martin or Rip Hamilton are better than Rudy, it’s just the system and the coach tying him.
I can even understand what went on with Sergio, but risks are there to take them. The Blazers can settle being a first round playoff team or take risks and really involve player and let them unleash their talent. Nate McMillan just makes players want to get out of here because they know they won’t be able to play to their strengths and even if their potential is amazing, they’ll never be more than 2nd tier players.
Just look Sergio’s attitude in NY, he looks a completely different player now who’d die for his team, even when his best features are failing, the other day he came up with 8 steals, and that’s what you get when players just try to do their best playing the game they love instead of playing knowing they are stuck.
Remember the Olympics and then think about what Rudy is doing here. Nate is just using 20% of what Rudy can give, and that has to be unbearably frustrating for the player.
Nate is not a good motivator, and he isn’t a good coach.
I first said this a long time ago, and I still stand by it: This teams success isn’t thanks to McMillan, it’s despite of him.
Portland has become the less attractive city to play ball in the NBA.
Portland Trailblazers, where developing Kyle Korver 2 instead of Reggie Miller 2.0 happens.
Nobody expects a Spanish Acquisition!
You nailed it man!
I have been feeling the same way about Nate too. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to any of us that all our former players are doing so much better under different coaches. Sergio’s 8 steals was totally surprising but it shouldn’t have been. Rudy is a free spirit when he plays basketball and so he needs the freedom to do his thang. We all know that Nate isn’t the most trusting coach out there and the moment that a 2nd tier player makes a mistake, he yanks them to the bench. Heck look what he has done to Webster! He had a solid posistion in the team playing significant minutes, averaging around 30 minutes and now he’s getting less than 10 minutes a game. What exactly did he do wrong? Batum didn’t earn his minutes cause he had only 1 good game before being promoted into the starting lineup. Even last season he got the starting job cause Webster got injured. Has Batum earned the starting spot? NO! Don’t get me wrong here, Batum is our future SF but Webster has earned his minutes this season and he should have kept it till next season’s training camp. Unless he play gets worse and so far there hasen’t been any evidence of that. Nate just made a change for the sake of change.
Just so you all don’t think that I am in love with Webster, I think KP should look to trade Webster which would give more minutes to Rudy. Calderon is not the answer, he can’t defend heck he’s worse than Blake so we need to re-think that. Can you all that believe that Bayless is never going to be a PG please wait till at least the end of the season before you judge him? If Bayless and Rudy can develop on the court chemistry then all will be well. The problem with Rudy is that in order for him to play more minutes he needs to either improve his ball handling or get stronger. The only minutes available is backup minutes at SF and PG, so can Rudy play with Roy and either Miller or Bayless? That trio would not be a good combination defensively so what do we do?
If we ran more than there would be more possesions and shots to keep everyone much happier than they are now. But would Nate ALLOW the players to pick up the pace? I very much doubt it.
Batum Earned it
He is the one who will defend the opposing teams best player, and does an effective job of shutting them down. He also routinely will nail that open jumper when the ball is passed to him in the flow of the offense. With Roy and Aldridge on this team that is invaluable.
That is very true
Nic is still in the recovery stage from his injury, I think he will get much better on the offense and the defense as he gets back to game playing conditions.
All these injuries takes time to adjust to, not just individually but team wise. The new group that was formed because of BRoy’s injury developed chemistry and was able to play the part. But, IMO, the team wouldn’t prosper in the long term with the make shift starting 5.
Same way with Batum, it took him this long to get back to the starting 5 and it will take longer to get the chemistry. In the long run, IMO,. he will just get better and better.
hg
Can we see some evidence to back this up?
Or is it just your opinion that most former Blazers who were here under Nate are now performing better?
Sergio hasn’t earned a starting job. Jack has basically managed to maintain what he had here. Channing Frye is putting up better numbers but only because he’s getting a lot more minutes. He performed as well here when he was able to get consistent minutes. That was difficult on a team that also sported Aldridge, Oden and Pryzbilla on the roster. Perhaps you may be thinking about Von Wafer. Wait…. he’s not even in the league, is he?
So who is on this list of players you refer to?
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Damn ... I forgot about him.
Guess I’m going to have to concede.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
It must be that playing time
But when trading players turns them into overnight candidates for Most Improved, that doesn’t speak well of the coach or management
Nobody expects a Spanish Acquisition!
Which former Blazer is a candidate for that?
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Remember the Olympics and then think about what Rudy is doing here. Nate is just using 20% of what Rudy can give, and that has to be unbearably frustrating for the player.
What is the other 80% of Rudy’s game? And how can you integrate that into playing with Brandon Roy? Rudy is a star on the Spanish team, he’s a bench player in Portland and for good reason: Roy is much better than him.
And yes Sergio did get 8 steals in a game, he also got four points and one assist and shot 2 for 8 in 30 minutes. And his +- was -19. That was a horrible game.
Nate’s not perfect by any means, but he’s not half as bad as some would like to think.
by In Walks Rudy on Feb 25, 2010 7:47 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
That was an example of what a motivated player does
Anyway, if you want to take a look at stats, he has a FIC40 of 13.8, 10th among PG’s in this league after Paul, Nash, Williams (Deron), Billups, Kidd, Rondo, Calderon, Westbrook and Baron Davis, and he was leading the Kings in +/- by a huge margin.
Both looks and stats say the same thing: he was misused and underrated.
The other 80% of Rudy’s game consists of fast breaks, shooting a very good % off the dribble, clutch playing and cutting. That’s 4 out of his 5 main weapons that aren’t used
Nobody expects a Spanish Acquisition!
So what team is Sergio the starting PG for?
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Portland didn't think these guys sucked.
Otherwise they wouldn’t have drafted them. And I would take either one back.
But it is rather difficult to make a believeable case for them playing much better due to being away from Nate. Sergio had the chance to seize the starting job. He was the primary backup. He didn’t do it and he wouldn’t start for Portland today.
Jack might be the starter for the Blazers, had he stayed. I thought he could. But a lot of people here trying to use him as proof that Nate screwed up are the same ones who castigated the guy when he was here.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
The New York Knicks
He came off the bench on his first game and already played more than Duhon, after that D’Antoni said he had a new starting PG and Duhon disappeared from the rotation.
But hey, take a look for yourself, this is him against the Celtics in his second game as a starter before he even had one practice with the Knicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaEdrwG_-0w
Nobody expects a Spanish Acquisition!
despite of him?
sorry, but I just don’t think that happens in the NBA (or any other league for that matter). The coach is just as important to a winning team as it’s all star. It’s no accident Nate has been in the running for COY for the last three years and is seen by every analyst as a great coach. Bad coaches make bad teams. Just look at Mike Dunleavy’s recent career. Or heck check out the how Nellie is destroying the GS franchise. Those teams have enough talent to compete, but their coaches stunt them.
As for sergio, let me know when he strings together more than 2 nice games in a row. And remember, Chris Duhon looked like a beast in NY. Bad teams inflate players value because they can play minutes they shouldn’t.
Nate is not the problem. If players aren’t behind their coach they will not have a winning record. 54 wins does not happen with terrible coaches.
Come on, let's be honest here
The coach is just as important to a winning team as it’s all star
There are any number of examples to the contrary, but let’s run down a few. The Celtics are a terrible team with Doc Rivers for 4 years, add 2 all star players, and win a title. Can anyone say with a straight face that Doc Rivers was just as important to that team as KG or Pierce?
The Pistons make 2 straight finals, winning one with Larry Brown, widely considered to be a great coach. They switch to the mediocre Flip Saunders but keep pretty much the same players and proceed to make the next 4 ECF’s.
In 05/06 and 06/07 the Clippers win 46 and 40 games respectively with Dunleavy coaching and Elton Brand playing at least 80 games. He tears his ACL 8 games into 07/08, and then win 23 games instead, despite the roster being basically the same outside of Brand.
The 95/96 Spurs win 59 games and a playoff series with Bob Hill coaching and a healthy Robinson. Robinson gets hurt the next year, and despite upgrading to Gregg Popovich, they win 39 fewer games.
Coaching isn’t completely meaningless, but it’s more about avoiding complete disasters than it is about improving the team. I’d bet 10 times out of 10 on a team coached by Mike Dunleavy starring Michael Jordan if it were playing a team coached by Phil Jackson and led by Corey Maggette.
#52
by Royster on Feb 25, 2010 10:44 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Horrible title
He wasn’t being honest, just mistaken. Other than that, nice post.
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!
Now you be honest
Magguette’s averaging 20 pts. Jordan’s been retired for 17 years 12 years 7 years. I’d take Magguette 3 times out of 10.
good points
but I don’t think the blazers of last year are anywhere near the level of any of the teams you cited, We had one all star and a cast of young supporting players, many of which are inconsistent. Not exactly KG, Pierce and Allen or Robinson/Duncan. Dunleavy had decent seasons with a clippers team that should have been much better than that. We had a 54 win year with ONE all star and a supporting cast of ridiculously young and somewhat inconsistent players. I may be overvaluing the coach, but you are most definitely under valuing him. I’m not saying he’s going to be a hall of famer (maybe though, who knows), but to say that Nate is holding this team back is ridiculous. The progress we’ve made under him has been unprecedented. There is no way we are still in the play off hunt this year with Mike Dunleavy, Flip Saunders or Bob hill.
I disagree that coaching is more about avoiding disasters. This may be true for a team like the celtics who have all star players who are as old as coaches, but for the 2nd youngest team in the NBA to post 54 and then still be in the playoff hunt with the type of decimating injuries we’ve had it takes alot more than a mediocre coach. I understand that the guys got his flaws as a coach, but I’ll take him over most of the coaches in the league (barring Popp, Sloan, Adelman). Gotta give credit where its due.
The Spurs' best player aside from Robinson
in 95/96 was Sean Elliott. How is that appreciably different from LaMarcus/Andre?
Or, a few more examples that fit the “one all star and a bunch of role players” mold. Miami in 2007/2008 with a banged up Wade missing a lot of games and limited by injury and a HOF coach: 15 wins. The following year minus Shawn Marion but plus Beasley and a healthy Wade and a rookie coach: 43 wins.
Since Tim Duncan came into the league up until last year the Spurs won at least 1 playoff series every single year. The one year they lost in the 1st round (2000)? Duncan was hurt and missed the playoffs.
Heck, I think Adelman is one of the best coaches in the league, and look at Houston, without Yao they go from being a 55 win team to a .500 team.
It’s not that coaches have no impact whatsoever, just that the most of the time a coach has a real significant impact is when it’s negative. There are exceptions, mainly because of the difficulties of motivating certain players (i.e. Rodman, Baron Davis, etc.) where a specific coach has a greater impact, but we’re in the playoff hunt this year almost entirely because of Roy, and the fact that our depth is better than most other teams’. It’s not that Nate is a better coach than Riley, but if you swap out Miller, Lamarcus, Rudy, Webster, etc. for Chris Quinn, Haslem, Cook, and Ricky Davis, I can guarantee you we wouldn’t be in the playoff hunt.
If this were the NFL and we were talking about QBs vs. coaches I’d understand, but stars, and players in general have a much greater impact in the NBA. That’s why teams led by Mike Dunleavy and Don Nelson can do well in the playoffs or horribly flounder. Often they’re the difference between not quite getting there and winning a title, like the Bulls possibly not winning 6 titles without PJ, but they defintiely weren’t winning 6 titles without MJ (Or swap out Houston with Hakeem and Rudy T).
#52
by Royster on Feb 25, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I feel like you said
what i’ve been trying to say further down. But you said it oh, SO much better.
Rec
Using your argument ....
… then it doesn’t really matter if Nate’s the coach or not.
I agree with you that what the players do has far more impact than what the coach does. But you can’t argue that great players are the reason coaches have success and then turn around and say that our players are not winning because of the coach.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
by timg56 on Feb 25, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
My point was never that the coach has no impact
just that it’s laughably small compared to that of your best individual player. Swap out Nate and Riley from this year’s team and the 07/08 Heat and there’s probably a difference of 4-5 wins either way. Swap out this year’s Roy with that year’s Wade, and it’s probably a 20-win difference.
Now, if you go down the line, it wouldn’t take long before you’d find the player your coach mattered more than. Maybe the coach is more important than your 3rd or 4th best player, I don’t know given that it’s all relative anyways and it’s just not something I really care about that much. People constantly complaining that Nate is the sole reason for everything that ails us are almost definitely wrong, but my statements hardly preclude him being a factor just because he’s not the largest determinant of our record.
#52
Two sides. What a concept.
Good read, Dave, thanks. I’ve been in the camp saying “PLAY HIM” but when you put it that way (at whose expense?), you’ve got me. In recent history, I said Blake’s expense. When Roy was hobbling I thought it was a golden missed opportunity. In the present situation, I’m at a loss.
Question: regarding this E.U. which you’ve proposed, Jose, Rudy and Nic mixed with BRoy… Aren’t you still bringing a guy in off the bench? I’m not saying it’s crazy, just trying to understand the idea. I assume we’re not moving Batum up to start at 4.
On the other hand, were this a liener roster I could see him being an All Star 6th man, first man in at any position from point short of center.
by jiminut on Feb 25, 2010 5:20 AM PST via mobile reply actions
The EU and US leagues do respect each others' contracts, but it's possible to move from country to country while under contract after a buyout (some problems doing it in season) and some owners have bigger pockets and egos than others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosman_ruling
It all depends on what a team would be willing to do for Rudy, what the Blazers’ plans for him are, and what he would want to do. Marko Jaric got bought out of an existing deal this season. One or two European teams also tried it with Milicic, but he had some trade value left as a player and expiring contract so that got denied by his team(s). If a deep-pocketed club like Real Madrid, Barcelona, or a team in Greece really really really wanted Rudy, they could of course approach the Blazers during the offseason and try to negotiate a buyout. If Paul Allen and Kevin Pritchard would even think about it is a different story.
As for the retiring and then coming back, I can’t think of a perfect example where that has happened for a player with the intention to play overseas right now (at least one talented enough to undoubtedly continue with an NBA career). Josh Childress kind of forced Atlanta’s hand when he signed with Olympiakos during the offseason when he didn’t like their contract offer and got no great other ones, now ATL has to yearly make him a qualifying offer to keep his rights a restricted free agent which is a pain since it means a pretty big cap hold on their budget. Jason Williams most recently tried the retiring and coming back route after the had signed with the Clippers, and the NBA barred him from playing in that season in order to sign with a playoff contender (he is now back in Orlando).
FIBA upholds the terms of NBA contracts
and they are the governing body of European basketball. The only way Rudy can play overseas is a) after his contract ends or b) create a toxic environment and is granted a buyout.
Yes, he can also “retire” but he won’t be playing basketball for over a year in doing so.
One thing to remember is that Rudy’s not making a ton of money here like his teammates, as his buyout was costly. Playing time & exposure are his ONLY rewards for being here instead of Spain in the first place…
Patty Mills - PG of the future. Book it.
by Blazerholic on Feb 25, 2010 5:38 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
As for Rudy wanting to leave the nba
Can anyone imagine him giving up his dream after two years? He’ll spend his life as the proverbial small-town washed up guy who used to be a high school quarterback. “I coulda been a contender”. Not saying it’s impossible, I just seriously hope he has more self respect.
by jiminut on Feb 25, 2010 5:39 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I don't think he really wants to leave, that's the Spanish media asking every star player (from Spain, or even from the US) if they would want to come play there
The answer is usually “if an opportunity arrives…” or “we’ll see”. Something to that effect. It’s not like Rudy or his agent demanded a trade, a coaching change, or even a style change in those interviews. Sergio’s frustration in his interviews was much stronger. Rudy just stated what doesn’t work, while blaming himself and his surroundings (stuck behind Roy, Nate’s different philosophy) at least equally. He undoubtedly thought he would have a bigger role when signing the contract, so it’s not all smooth sailing. But nothing is imminent.
wut? he could prosper in Europe basketball-wise
i don’t think the NBA is as important to Euros as it is to Americans
by Theghostofsomeonefamous on Feb 25, 2010 6:52 AM PST up reply actions
yes but the point is..
…that euro-basket is not nearly as important to euros as the nba is to americans
Not really true. Basketball isn’t that big in the general population (as say soccer in most countries or nordic sports in some in the North and East). But it’s HUGE in a number of small cities with teams with a long tradition. You get fans at least as excited as those in Portland and much more excited than your average NBA fan in some cities in Spain, Greece, Italy, Germany, …
There is no international court
in which the Blazers have any legal standing. Perhaps there’s a trade treaty or something under the WTO that would apply, but there’s no international tort court.
To sue in this instance, the Unites States Government would have to take up the matter. I don’t see that happening.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
FIBA has no international authority to promulgate int'l law
that can only be done through sovereign states. The NBA and FIBA are micro-organisms as far as int’l law’s concerned.
I'm a really really ridiculously good looking orange mocha frappaccino drinking manhammer sandwich
FIBA has authority over Euroleagues. They also have a deal with the NBA
to honor NBA contracts. There will be no suing or applications of international law, it’s not applicable here, and FIBA will not cross the NBA.
Patty Mills - PG of the future. Book it.
by Blazerholic on Feb 25, 2010 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
agreed.
this would def go to arbitration. No way FIBA would cross the NBA.
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on Feb 25, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
what's your legal background?
just curious. Also, see my comments below.
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on Feb 25, 2010 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
They don't need an int'l court
They can sue in state court under a long arm statute or in fed court. FIBA and Real Madrid likely have more than enough “Minimum Contacts” to satisfy International Shoe, and Helicopteros Nacionales De Columbia v Hall.
see
Subject matter Jurisdiction:
• The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of all civil actions arising under the constitution, laws, or treaties of the United States. 28 U.S.C. § 1331
• Diversity Jurisdiction- The district courts shall have original jurisdiction of all civil actions where the matter in controversy exceeds the sum of value of $75,000, exclusive of interest and costs, and is between-
• Citizens of different States
• Citizens of a State, and foreign states or citizens or subjects thereof; and
• Citizens of different States and in which foreign states or citizens or subjects thereof are additional parties. 28 U.S.C. § 1332.
Domesticating the judgement would be a separate issue.
Both FIBA and Real Madrid have a heavy interest in not messing with the NBA.
Note: I am a law student and not an attorney, no part of this communication is intended as legal advice and should not be relied on as such. If you have legal questions, please seek out an attorney licensed in your jurisdiction. Law students are not allowed to give legal advice.
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on Feb 25, 2010 2:35 PM PST up reply actions
Good read, but after listening to Quick yesterday I think your conclusion is off
The team isn’t going to force a guy to be here who doesn’t want to be here. I’d be shocked if Rudy is back for next season.
by Theghostofsomeonefamous on Feb 25, 2010 6:51 AM PST reply actions
And I think he´ll be back next season if NY doesn´t make a really big offer.
NY will be willing to have both Sergio and Rudy.
Quick makes his living finding drama
And increasingly, creating drama where there is none. He’s the last person I’d listen to (next to Conzano) about an issue like this.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Feb 25, 2010 10:29 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
lol
does anyone like Canzano? Or does he only get air-time because he’s so divisive?
by Billy Hoyle on Feb 25, 2010 11:28 AM PST up reply actions
Rudy is not going to mess it up with his contract, and I don’t think he is coming back to Spain anytime soon.
Those comments about the Spanish media always asking players if they are comfortable in their teams and if they plan to go back to Spain are true, but not because they are big starts here (because they are not, except Pau Gasol) and Spanish media want them all to be All Stars, is just the obvious and common questions to the people who is representing your country basketball in the best basketball league in the world.
Most Spaniards don’t care about the Blazers, Lakers, Raptors… they just want to see their country fellas doing good in the best league. Do you think that Spanish media care so much of those Spanish soccer players playing outside Spain? They care only about one or two when there are dozens out there, best soccer leagues are Spanish, Italian and British, so we don’t care how our players do in other countries so much, we just see the best soccer every day at home.
I personally think Rudy is not comfortable in Portland because he is tied to a system that requires him to do something he is not. In any game he played in DKV or with the Spanish NT you will never see him standing in the corner, then running to the top of the arch when a teammate drives to the basket play after play. Rudy is not a role player, for his good or bad, he is not.
It happens in Portland that a ball dominant all star player is the pivotal point of the team, and there is a coach that wants every player do exactly what he is told. It is obvious why Rudy don’t get so much minutes some games, cause he is not doing what he is told to do, stand in the line and make the three, if threes are not falling, Rudy is not contributing, as simple as that. So the only way out for Rudy is to be the sixth man coming off the bench with freedom to spark the team… and this team is filled with angry players wanting to do everything in 15 minutes, the shortest path to failure.
Is Rudy the problem or is Nate? I do think they are both. Rudy pairing with Roy is not Rudy’s future, and Nate’s monolithic system is not the future for a team full of young talented guys.
Rudy minutes FTW
by ABSF on Feb 25, 2010 6:53 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Blame the Spanish press
It was the week when Real Madrid lost a big game to Barcelona (with Ricky Rubio).
The newspapers Marca and As are Madrid sports papers and were making the point that the club should invest in a (actually any) big time player. If Rudy were to be aked he very likely would choose Barcelona over RM.
This thread has been a very interesting regarding Nate’s system lack of flexibility and upside regarding anything more than first series exit
by blzermexfan on Feb 25, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
" Sergio’s 8 steals was totally surprising but it shouldn’t have been."
But we need to avoid the greener grass syndrome. We have players who have put up incredible numbers in some games and then been a human vegetable in other games.
Just as some others, I have been wondering if players leaving the Blazers and doing better is indicative of an inability of Nate to use the players in a way that brings out the best in them.
However, I don’t think there is strong evidence of that so far. Channing Frye for instance, he’s obviously doing way better in Phoenix than he did in Portland but that clearly is partly to do with him being used in an unorthodox style of team ball (a style that I don’t think is capable of producing success in playoffs), and also Frye apparently worked his butt off to develop a 3 point shot that he didn’t have before- that part of it is a matter of individual development on the part of the player that is not related to what team he’s on.
In the case of Sergio, it’s way too early to judge how well he is performing on a sustained basis, and also stats are not the be-all and end-all, as should be evident when you consider a player like Batum.
But I do agree that the issue of whether playing for Nate stunts some player’s development is one that shouldn’t be swept under the rug, I just think there is not a case to be made so far. One other thing is that stunted development can also occur due to having too many rotation-caliber players on the team. And I think that indeed is a big issue for the Blazers as I and some others have blathered on about a great deal this year. But that one is not a coaching decision. And, in fact, in my view KP has taken a big step in addressing the logjam problem by trading Blake and Outlaw for Camby.
don't forget Jarret jack
He’s had a his best 2 years as a pro since being dealt. shooting 49% (41%) from the field this year, averaging 10.9 and 5.0 assts. did we give up on him too early and he just got a lot better, or was it the system? consider he spent last year in Indy and this year in Toronto.
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
Do I live in an alternate reality where Jack didn’t put up similar numbers in Portland as a starter?
And sure, Channing is having a much better season in Phoenix, but he has now fallen off in favor of Robin Lopez and is shooting sub-40% the last two months. Don’t make me mention his rebounding numbers or his dwindling playing time in that time span, either.
And Sergio? Love the guy, but man, he couldn’t even last half a year on a bad Kings team (putting up similar numbers as he did in Portland in his time there), and then was traded to an even worse team where he doesn’t have to compete with any other PG for minutes.
But hey, let us also forget the likes of James Jones and Ime Udoka who can’t get into the rotation on other teams, yet found ways to be productive and help win games in their time in Portland.
The grass is greener on the other side indeed.
Founder of the "Crash Batumcoot" Movement.
by damir on Feb 25, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Jarrett's actually scoring at an insanely efficient rate this year
a 60% TS% is absurd for a guard, he’s just a less significant piece of the offense than he ever was here. His PER has gone up the past two years despite having a lower usage than his last year. I think it’s safe to say that Jerryd’s been solidly improving since he left.
And Sergio not playing well with the Kings? On what planet did that happen? A 17.1 PER means he was producing at roughly the same per minute level that LaMarcus has for us this year, at least statistically. Maybe he was included in the deal because NY wanted him and Sacto already had a ton of money and minutes committed to 2 other PGs who were playing well in Reke and Beno. You might as well make the claims that Steve Nash and JO washed out of Phoenix (originally) and Portland because they weren’t getting minutes ahead of KJ and Kidd/Cassell or Sheed/Grant. Not saying Sergio is anywhere in the same universe as those guys, but every trade is hardly an example of a guy washing out.
As far as James Jones and Ime, the issue at hand is that we’re talking about developing/stunting the growth of young players. Players like Jones and Ime are what they are whether they’re in Portland, Miami, SA or wherever. Any differences in their production can be attributed pretty much entirely to how well a particular situation fits them personally.
There’s hardly a preponderance of evidence supporting the claim that Nate is messing up the development of a bunch of guys, but there’s enough smoke here that I think it merits a minor concern at least.
#52
Jack’s TS% as a starter in Portland was 57%, hardly what I would call “terrible”. His TS% also fell off to 55.5% in Indiana eventhough his USG% went up. In fact, his USG% this season in Toronto is about the same as in Portland. His ORTG has gone up, but his DRTG has gone down, while his TOV% is slightly up. He’s going to finish the year with less WS eventhough this Raptors team is one win away from matching Portland’s win total from that season.
The increased PER for Sergio can be attributed to him actually hitting his shots at a decent clip in Sacramento, but that wasn’t even enough for him to be awarded more playing time because his minutes per game went down.
We are basically arguing very low single digit percentile differences, and in many cases less than a percentile that swing either way – if we want to go the advanced statistics route.
Founder of the "Crash Batumcoot" Movement.
I'm using his most recent numbers from Portland
as evidence of the results of his development here, we might as well compare Sergio’s rookie year to now if we’re going to talk about their peaks.
As to Sergio, his minutes will go down because their other PGs were having career years. Like I said, claiming it’s an indictment of “washing out” because he wasn’t playing ahead of guys playing extremely well doesn’t make sense. Is Sefolosha playing poorly in OKC because his minutes have gone down, or is Harden just playing well? Saying “wow, this guy sucks because he couldn’t even get minutes in Sacto” isn’t an argument any more than it was for those other guys.
#52
In addition to damir's comments ...
… shouldn’t we expect some improvement on Jack’s numbers and performance simply due to maturation and increased experience?
I have no problem with Jack being in a Blazer uniform. I think he’d make a decent backcourt mate with Brandon.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
by timg56 on Feb 25, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny how one of BE's favorite whipping boys ....
… is now being used as an example of Nate can’t develop guys and Nate/KP gave up on him too soon.
I was a fan of Jack. I had no problem with a Portland PG rotation of Jack and Blake. What is really funny is that you are talking about a guy who had the starting job ahead of Blake and lost it. To another BE whipping boy. Maybe the really big mistake was Nate’s inability to utilize Blake, forcing KP to deal him.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Bob Gates-Gait-Gate!
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on Feb 25, 2010 2:41 PM PST up reply actions
What's with all the Gate?
Can’t we all just get along? On our own side of the fence. No need for gates.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
I hope coaches don't read fan blogs
Fans love and overestimate the value of their home team’s players. There is a tendency on these sites to blame coaches for the shortcomings of the fan favorites. Fans will say things like “player X is not scoring because the coach doesn’t give him enough minutes” or “player Y would shoot a higher percentage if the Coach didn’t wreck his confidence.” When a player isn’t playing well ultimately the blame lies with the player. It is up to him to step up his game. NBA coaches are not conspiring against their own players. Most of the players in the NBA get the minutes they deserve. For Rudy If he’s not hitting his 3’s at a high percentage than there’s really no reason to give him significant minutes. When he shoots well like last night against the Raptors Nate gives him minutes.
I love the Blazers and all in all the fans here are great but the tendency to blame coaches for everything is very strong here. We love our players and many here thing KP is a God, so that leaves Nate to shoulder most of the blame when things go wrong. Yet Nate very rarely gets credit for the things that go well. Personally I think Nate has done as well as one could reasonably expect given the adversity this team has faced this year.
JRogero
by JRogero on Feb 25, 2010 9:34 AM PST reply actions 5 recs
Last year at this time I would've said the same thing.
But now i’m not so sure… Was our stretch of wins in december/january despite the injuries really due to some magical coaching, mystical x’s and o’s, and mythical half-time pep speeches?
Or does it have alot more to do with the fact that we ARE a really deep team, and that depth was on center stage display? Not to mention nobody would’ve expected Juwan Howard to play at the level he did for as long as he did…
I’m not saying that Nate doesn’t deserve any credit for that stretch, but I would lean toward the idea that the victories and successes were despite of him, as others have said.
Just look how he was outcoached, plain and simple in last years playoffs? Look how Jerry Sloan outcoached him just recently? We can all agree that he’s stubborn, set in his ways, and almost never makes adjustments on the fly. He was the perfect coach to get us where we were last season, but for the amount of talent we have on this team he is NOT the one to take us to the next level.
But, despite all that, i’m not sure who i’d replace him with…
"outcoached" isn't plain and simple
as you are stating. How about our players were outplayed? You can’t say we win despite the coach but lose because of him. That’s ridiculous. We win when we outplay the other team, and lose when we don’t.
Everyone knew going into the Playoffs last year that a) we had overachieved by even making it, and b) that Houston was the worst team for us to face, matchup-wise. So saying we were outcoached is a stretch at best.
And the Jazz game? Even if you had some magical way to prove that we lost due to coaching, which you don’t, so what? It was one game. Guess what, we’ve still won more games this year than we have lost. If we were in the East, we would be in 5th place right now. All this, with no legit centers, Roy out for a third of the games, Batum out the first 45 games, no Outlaw, I mean, what do you really expect?
by Billy Hoyle on Feb 25, 2010 11:38 AM PST up reply actions
I love that dichotemy as well.
The good is because of the players, but the bad is due to Nate. If the team loses because of lack of energy, or failing to execute, it’s Nate’s fault because he has the wrong guys out there or has them confused in the roles or should simply have “coached” them to execute correctly.
When the team beats team it maybe shouldn’t, it is all because of the players and Nate’s rotations, substitutions, timeouts and play callings were so much fluff.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
I understand the knee-jerk reaction
to the “nate-hate” that you think i’m all about, but honestly I never said that it was entire the coach’s fault, just as it’s not all to his credit that we’ve done so well despite the injury plague.
Nate’s a good coach. Like i said in my first comment, I have no idea who i’d replace him with. He’s done a heck of a job for us, and he has many strengths. However, I feel that his stubbornness and his lack of adaptation will be a liability for us now and going forward. (It’s not good when most everyone on Blazers Edge can call your substitutions before you do!!)
@Billy Hoyle: Yes, Houston was a terrible match up for us. We were likely going to lose that series either way. But how long did it take nate to even think about changing his strategy? Game 5? Yeah, there were some close games but it was never a close series. I feel (and i’m sure some agree) that Nate’s inability to adjust, or coach on the fly really held us back. You’re not going to win any kind of series if you never adapt.
@timg56: I’d like to say again, Nate’s a good coach. But not the right one for our situation as of now and going forward. He’s fantastic at teaching fundamentals, but fundamentals don’t win rings.
" Personally I think Nate has done as well as one could reasonably expect given the adversity this team has faced this year."
The team has performed well under adversity- so give Nate credit for having been able to accomplish that.
And considering all the changes that the injuries have entailed, I really don’t think there is a basis to contend that Nate lacks the flexibility needed to be a good coach.
We don’t yet know how the team will perform when it has everything going for it. I really am not sure whether Nate will be up to that or not, but I see no reason to assume beforehand that he won’t.
Main thing is, I think we need to get off the manic-depressive binge of wanting to trade all the players and dump the coach after they’ve lost a couple games and we want to give them medals after they’ve won a couple.
I'd argue Nate is one of the best coaches under adverse conditions
His offensive philosophy – valuing discipline over dynamic matchups – fosters better basketball in younger, less experienced or more one-dimensional players. Take away player rotation choices and his minutes allocation are difficult to second guess.
However, when faced with optimizing a deep roster, I’m less than enthusiastic about Nate’s chances of getting the most out of talented players.
That seems to be the missing part of the equation. Rudy Fernandez is a supremely talented player that has proven his skill at the highest levels of competition. If you can’t find a way to get the most from those talents, you lack a vital something as a coach.
by blacknoiseNW on Feb 25, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
If you are correct in your assessment of Nate's ability to optimize a deep roster ....
…. and I’ll agree that at a minimum it isn’t yet proven that he can ….
…. are there examples out there where coaches have been able to do so?
Is it possible that what Nate is trying to do is something that has little in the way of previous roadmarks to guide the way? When was the last time a ciach had a team this young and apparently full of talent?
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
I think the "holding it together" argument in favor of Nate
is highly overrated.
What he did was what a blind monkey could do – play the players that were left. We were deep, so those players performed pretty well and were stoked to be getting minutes.
I’m sorry, but that’s not coaching magic. that’s just playing the guys who are still dressed. He had no other choice. The players are what made it work.
by sagcat on Feb 26, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
“Or does it have alot more to do with the fact that we ARE a really deep team, and that depth was on center stage display?”
Some of the success during the injury slump was due to the fact that there are some players who had heroic performances but who have been very up and down.
I’d say, yes the Blazers are an incredibly deep team when Martell, Rudy, Bayless are playing at the top of their game. They look like a really shallow team when those guys are crapping out though.
How to get the best out of those guys night after night, I don’t know the answer but that is the question the Blazers need to answer and I’m sure they are deeply aware of that.
Definitely consistancy is the main issue right now
But I guess my point is that I don’t believe Nate deserves the lion’s share of the credit for how well we performed during that tough stretch. Which most people (analysts, opposing coaches) seem to want to do
I love BLazers Edge
(and this write-up is full of the usual snappy, funny style Dave)
but this whole issue just stinks of media fear mongering.
Imagine a news man sitting on the coastline. He sees a few dark clouds on the horizon so he sends in his report “Potentially violent storm to hit mainland today!” The general populace is sent into an uproar.
Then the newsman sees the clouds dissipate and the sun shines through. Does he send in a report saying that his earlier headline was in fact false and that the entire population should just calm down?
No. His report says “Crisis narrowly averted!”
Rudy isn’t going anywhere.
we can still win........
by RastaMonsta on Feb 25, 2010 10:44 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
My favorite thing
is reading the value of our beloved players. We think Steve Blake, Sergio, Outlaw, and Jarrett Jack were stiffled under Nate.
At the same time we think this is a championship team in 3-5 years, or however far the timetable is now depending on who is hurt or what position the moon is over the Rose Garden.
Look at those players. Look at the teams that are competing this year. Those guys don’t get a whiff of playing time for Denver, LA, Cleveland, Dallas, Utah, or Orlando. I’m sorry they’re not great players, we can’t sit back and hope that Jarrett Jack can come back and lead us to the promise land.
Nate hasn’t killed us here, these guys just weren’t that good. Any scouting report would have agreed. Guys have hot nights, guys put up decent numbers every now and then, they’re not who you want to hang your hat on. Too inconsistent. Trust me, there are no Jermaine O’Neals in that group. This town needs a damn counseling session to let go of the past.
by Haymon45 on Feb 25, 2010 11:16 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
You make a valid point
On the other hand, we have to be able to identify some players -Greg, Rudy, Nic – and say, “these guys are going to be special very soon and we should accommodate and nurture them.”
That’s pragmatic and a path to success, not blind exuberance. Though I think the latter often gets mistaken for the former.
This is a horrible time to evaluate Rudy's value
So much has changed for Rudy this season. The injuries, Webster being back, juggling line-ups, all combined with the typical sophmore slump makes this a really poor year to be guessing on whether rudy is worth it to the blazers.
And let’s not underestimate how much the loss of Sergio affects Rudy’s game. He said in his interview that Sergio was perhaps the only blazer who understood his game, and I think their play together demonstrates that.
It’s too soon to give up on this guy. We’ve seen too much solid play and he has too much potential to not have at least one more season to evaluate his long-term viability.
All day baby, all day!
I agree with it being a bad time to evaluate his value. However,
He has not done much to justify the “More minutes” deal either. Until last night. Guess what? He got em. He earned em
by Hermistonmelons on Feb 25, 2010 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
"One possibility would be to relieve the Raptors of their rather expensive back-up point guard this summer."
That’s rich, Dave. God, even you have contracted the “Grass Is Always Greener” virus that runs rampant here @ BE. Er, isn’t that the same back-up point guard—Jose Calderon—who is now playing behind Jarrett Jack? Jack being the former Blazer point guard who was practically tarred & feathered by BE fans for allegedly not being as good as Jose Calderon (among others)? Jack also being the guy the Blazers unloaded essentially in order to bring in Jerryd Bayless—aka Jarrett Jack with hops and sans experience?
Now you propose—with a straight face—spending a gazillion bucks to get the guy Jack beat out in Toronto? How about just going out and re-signing Jack? I can see it now: the first time poor Jarrett stepped out of bounds preparing to drive from the sideline, the torches & pitchforks would come out all over again. The outcry would arise: “Trade Jack for Steve Blake!”
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
by hurryup09 on Feb 25, 2010 2:32 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
This needs to get a record number of rec's.
I’ve been laughing my butt off seeing all the people who are trying to make the argument that Nate has stiffled talent. Particularly when I see some of BE’s favorite past whipping boys (Jack, Blake, Travis, Frye) being used as examples.
Maybe those folks had a revelation and realized that “Jeez, it wasn’t that they sucked as much as I thought. It was all the coach’s fault.”
And I really like you nailing Dave on the Calderon idea. I almost chocked up my tea when I read that one.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
If you correctly cite the whole paragraph
and not just the portion that you want to use to complain about you would see that I used this as one example of how it would be easy to work around Rudy either way, trading him or keeping him and making his style of play more prevalent on the team. If I were to discuss firm point guard possibilities, which I will certainly do at some point this summer, I would go into far more detail and give more options and conditions.
As a more general note to all: no matter who you are or what point you’re making the following two things are both annoying and counterproductive:
1. Generalizing something as “typical of BE” in a disparaging tone, as if everyone here but you was a sheep flocking to the same behavior and opinions when even a cursory look at the comments shows this isn’t so.
2. Unleashing on a poster (or author) instead of just making whatever point you’re going to make and letting people discuss it fairly. It’s perfectly possible to be frustrated about something while still channeling that frustration into the actual subject at hand instead of other fans.
—Dave
Dave, I'm a fan of yours and of this site
But I think you come off oversensitive here—defensive both of your own post and of BE denizens. I didn’t say that “everyone here but [me]” has the grass is greener virus. What I wrote is that said virus “runs rampant” at this site, and I don’t think you can reasonably dispute that.
It probably WAS unfair of me to suggest that you’ve caught the disease yourself. But really, I was just poking a little fun at you. I was a little surprised to see a bastion of reason like yourself even making the “off the cuff” suggestion that the Blazers spend big bucks to sign Calderon—a former BE darling who has been beaten out by the former BE whipping boy, Jarrett Jack.
My greater point was about how a guy like Jarrett Jack—a solid, ultra-tough, hard-working, still-improving player reputed to be extremely popular with his teammates—gets treated by a fickle Portland fanbase. Certainly, back in the day, Jack had his share of defenders at this site and elsewhere in Blazerland. But they were surely overwhelmed by the Sergio & Blake partisans who blew a gasket everytime Jack stepped out of bounds before driving to the hoop.
Even when Jack would have a great game, I’d read a bunch of naysaying comments and posts about how, sure, Jack had scored 25 points with 10 assists and 5 rebounds, but he’d also had 5 turnovers! So many fans were oblivious to the fact that, especially in the second half of games, Roy would regularly catch a needed breather on the weak side as Jack penetrated, drew fouls, and made the foul shots. Roy would turn into Superman in the final few minutes, but Jack would have helped make that possible.
Personally, I always felt that Jack & Blake were good fits on the Blazers. In contrast to a lot of posters, I found it easy to visualize Blake as a reliable reserve point guard on a championship Blazer team and Jack as either the starter (if he continued to develop), or an instant-offense combo guard off the bench. I found it remarkable how few BE readers saw the potential in the players already on the roster.
Personally, my only objection to the team that KP put together a few seasons ago was their lack of maturity and experience—which time would surely fix—and a lack of plain old beef. Re/ the latter shortcoming, I suspected that if you put all the Blazer players on one side of a scale and all the Rocket, Jazz, Celtic, or Spurs players on the other side, the Blazers squad would go flying into the air. Too many stringbeans and not enough "Maxsaps.’ Even with the additions of Howard & Pendegraph to the roster, I think that still might be the case. But that’s a subject for another post…
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
by hurryup09 on Feb 26, 2010 1:39 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec on the Steve Blake and Jarrett Jack opinion.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
OK, guilty as charged as far as it applying to me.
But you do sound a bit over sensitive to hurryup’s comments. And he is dead on regarding a vocal segment of BE who regularly longing for some other guy while trashing our own players.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Wow
I thought it was a funny comment that wasn’t personally targeting you at all, but rather making fun of the community’s propensity to bounce from negative to positive (and back, and forth, and back again) about a player.
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#10 #52 -- #5 #7 & #88 are back!
I totally object to the usage of the same photo 2wice in repitititition on the MAIN page!! dave!! you're better than that.
but loved the thoughts. peachy?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
Head Czar of Amerika <--- Mortimer said so so there!!!
Fans need to let the players be human. Also, it's Nate's fault.
I see nothing at all wrong or incorrect about what Rudy said.
Dave’s point that in today’s NBA you have to find your niche and excell at it is the truth, but it’s an extremely unfortunate truth. And it doesn’t have to be that way.
Versatility can be valued so long as the coach isn’t a micro-managing “Sarge,” who can’t see beyond the 1-2-3-4-5 pigeon holes.
The Triangle offense has won 10 of the last 18 titles. And one team runs it. One coach. On the other hand, the Spread has taken over college football in five years, because those people aren’t as rigid and stubborn as our current coach.
How many players on the Blazers – right up to Roy! – have to say ’I’m unclear as to what the coach is expecting of me" before we get the message that this coach isn’t doing his job?
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