There Ain’t No "Show Time" Without Playing Time
Let me apologize up front. The one table below is only about 10% of the data I’ve compiled, but the other 90% (not given) speaks to the same point. I don’t have time to finish this post properly so I’m throwing it out there as it is, before the data gets old.
I’m not an ISO fan, but I don’t mind a certain amount of ISO plays.
From a coaching standpoint you have to think any coach might play it somewhat safe with a 25-point lead. And perhaps even think that a hobbled Roy gives us enough oomph to win this game even if our offense is not running smoothly. But nobody expects to go 4 for 26 in the last 18 minutes of regulation (I think that’s close to what the numbers were) regardless of what kind of sets you run. But this is not the first time we've given up big runs or gone ice cold. So what is the problem?
Although tremendously important, I think the problem is more fundamental than what kinds of plays are being run. I have never seen a year where for great lengths of time our offense stalls out, and our defense puts on a premium "Swiss Cheese" commercial, as it has too many times this year. I’d like to see a stat on who’s gone cold offensively, and who has given up the biggest runs this year. And then I’d wear it for Halloween next year - it's sure to be quite scary.
What in the World is going on:
We're the 3rd youngest team in the league with extreme lack of playing time together.
To illustrate the quandary, below is a table of 3-player combinations, and I think it addresses much of our ills and woes on offense and defense, I chose to compare with the Hawks because they are a team that is at the top, and perhaps leading the league with players that have the most playing time together.
The combined minutes for the Hawks top 7 units with playing time, 3-player combinations, is 8445 minutes. The Blazers combined time is 3928 minutes, but 3 of the Blazers top 7 spots have Blake, with Blake and Oden in one of those. When you remove Blake, Oden slides into another two of those top spots, and Przybilla into the other. So after you remove Blake, Oden, and Pyzy our top 7 units that have spent the most time together total 3287 minutes. With our current rotation our time spent playing together is roughly 39% of what the Hawks have played together this year. Or, if you like it better in the inverse, the Hawks rotations have spent 257% more time playing together than we have.
This doesn’t look as bad as seeing the numbers, so here is the ugly in all it’s glory.
Hawks
1440:04:00 - J. Johnson Jo. Smith A. Horford
1285:53:00 - M. Bibby J. Johnson A. Horford
1192:32:00 - J. Johnson M. Williams A. Horford
1191:44:00 - M. Bibby J. Johnson Jo. Smith
1159:23:00 - M. Bibby Jo. Smith A. Horford
1110:02:00 - J. Johnson Jo. Smith M. Williams
1066:04:00 - Jo. Smith M. Williams A. Horford
Blazers
751:50:00 - A. Miller M. Webster L. Aldridge
684:13:00 - A. Miller L. Aldridge B. Roy
541:50:00 - M. Webster L. Aldridge B. Roy
393:46:00 - A. Miller M. Webster B. Roy
325:25:00 - J. Howard M. Webster J. Bayless
299:30:00 - J. Howard M. Webster B. Roy
290:36:00 - J. Howard A. Miller J. Bayless
You don’t even want to look at 5 player rotations. So close your eyes.
The Hawks top 3 units have played together 1367 minutes. Their #1 rotation has played together 809 minutes this year.
The Blazers top 3, have spent 417 minutes together. Oh wait, we have to minus out Blake, Oden and Przy. Our current 5-player rotations (top 3 combined) have spent 262 minutes together, and we have played 3 more games than the Hawks. That's right - 262 verses 1367 for the Hawks, that's at least twice as much!
To state it in terms of games played with a full 48 minutes:
We’ve played 58 games and our top 3 units have spent 5.45 games together.
The Hawks have played 55 games, and their top 3 units have played together for a whopping 28.48 games this season. 5.45 games compared to 28.48, It’s like trying to compare Dakota Fanning to Demi Moore. I might like Dakota better, but if I’m a producer I don’t even think about giving Dakota the role of a ladder-climbing-corporate-backstabber hoping to give Michael Douglas the shaft. She doesn't have the experience.
The numbers speak for themselves. We simply have not spent enough time together as compared to the top teams in the league. This, IMO, leads to very tentative offensive sets, late shots, poor shots, defensive nightmares, etc. And a good defense will eat up a team that has no idea what they want to do with the ball. Why were we so good last year after a timeout, we knew what we were doing.
The good news: We have room to improve as much as anybody in the league, as this last leg of the season should help us likely more than any other team. If not for any other reason than we will benefit from the playing time more than anyone.
Maybe it’s oversimplified, but many of our problems (not all) lie largely due to playing time. We’ve had some stretches in games where we looked rock solid offensively, and yes, even defensively. When the weak side defensive has rotated over correctly, we’ve smothered some good teams. But these oh-so-hard-to-take bad stretches won’t go away until we log some time together.
I feel our great push at the end of the season last year was due to the same reason: We had a young talented team who had logged some good minutes together.
Here’s to hoping we log some minutes, stay injury free, and find some good rotations.
--- Cheers.
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Great post
You overlooked something important. Of our top seven three man combos, every single one of them includes at least one player who didn’t play with us last year, and five of the seven include TWO players who didn’t play with us last year. And two of them include not one rotation last year.
In other words, we didn’t have experience together from last year to help us, either.
And familiarity does indeed matter.
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!
by jscot on Feb 23, 2010 9:06 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Thanks, if I go to bed right now I should get 4 hours of sleep…
but I thought a few folks might be interested in those kind of stats.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
Where in the world are you?
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!
Vancouver, WA. Combo Swing/Grave, but way past my bedtime tonight.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
rec'd for the dedication
we all appreciate the post. compiling data like this takes nearly forever. i’ve never completed a post with all the data i originally intended to. about a third the way through you decide enough is enough. nice work
by dirtboydave on Feb 23, 2010 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
It’s not really that much data, just didn’t have the time. But thanks.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
WA not BC
"The one thing we said about this team right away is they mirror what their coach's personality is and that's to be hard-nosed and play extremely hard and play with intensity." - Alvin Gentry
Like people in the Couve can't enjoy the olympics.
When I’m traveling, I like to pretend that I am from the BC one, ay.
#10 & #52
Cambridge
http://www.theportlandarms.co.uk/mbbs2/
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!
you can't take Boring away from us!
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
It is not just minutes together
Many of the Blazer players don’t have that many minutes of floor time period.
Absolutely, youth and no experience – it’s a rough road.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
plus guys are trying out new stuff
Like Bayless passing the ball and Rudy doing anything other than hitting threes. Rudy is a great example of the poster’s point. With Sergio he looked better since they had extensive floor time together.
It’s probably not going to get immediately better with Nic emerging in the starting line up soon. We can see it now which means in two or three games the coach will make the change.
by Jacksonville on Feb 23, 2010 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
It’s probably not going to get immediately better with Nic emerging in the starting line up soon
Maybe, maybe not. Nic played “in-between” Roy and LMA quite a bit last year, so Batum and the other two Blazer stars have already developed “synergy” in the past
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
not to mention
the defense of Batum and Camby would be good to have in the starting lineup at the beginning of each half to help “set the tone”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
totally agree it's the right move to start Batum
I’m just saying that (from above) Webster is in 5 of the top 7 Blazer three man combos this year.
Also gotta give Nate credit for starting Batum last night. Given his defense, a two point night from Batum is completely different than a two point night from Webster.
The team is quick and long with Camby, Aldridge, and Batum. Despite the rough start I still think this Camby trade will work out well. Assumeing they can stay on the floor together.
by Jacksonville on Feb 24, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
rec
Here’s to hoping we log some minutes, stay injury free, and find some good rotations.
I was really looking forward to being able to watch this happen this year.
#10 & #52
Me too, and in a big way.
I’m just amazed that we still have this much to be excited about after all that’s happened.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
Well, we've had enough to get a start on next year
as far as players getting used to each other.
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!
Absolutely
I expected some rough patches at the beginning of the year while guys got used to playing together. I figured that by January they’d be playing like a well-oiled machine. Alas, we’re stuck in some sort of NBA version of “Groundhog Day,” playing November ball over and over and over again.
That's definitely one way to put it.
Wow. The Blazers should consider a little external audit of their training staff.. just in case. Except for a blink at the end of the season last year, we really never get to see the core together out there after having enough time playing to get used to the other pieces.
Or I need to re-watch that movie and figure out what it is you do to break that curse. Does PA have to tell KP that he loves him? Does someone need to put Oden in a bubble? Does this have anything to do with Nate?
#10 & #52
Just a matter of time now...
I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
No I don’t.
But looking at the Blazers data it starts to become hard to evaluate. That is, that the deeper into the bench you go, the playing time starts to get small. And how much weight do fewer minutes carry.
For example: if you look at the top 20 based on performance, several player combinations with little time together comes to the top. A 3-player group might have a great run over 10 minutes. But how would it look if they played 100 minutes. There’s no way to tell.
Cunningham has 7 of the top 20 spots, 9 of the top 25. And of course all of his are smaller minutes. But adding all those up starts to accumulate a lot of minutes, so that the volume should start to count for something.
NBA.com defaults to overall /- (i.e. largest point diff) which will bring most of the longer time combinations to the top. Performance (/- per minute) will have shorter time durations. Which makes sense, the longer a group plays together the more the +/- should resemble the +/- for the year.
The main post was based on combinations that have the most playing time for both teams, for the purpose of showing how little time we’ve played together.
Here’s a list of our players and how many times they show up in the top 20 player combinations based on performance. But remember it’s hard to compare Roy to Cunningham. Roy’s combinations have about triple the minutes of Dante.
The #1 3-player combo (performance wise) was Roy, Przy, Dante but they only played 26 minutes together with a +/- of .866 per minute. .866 per minutes is equal to winning the game by 42 points.
6 – Brandon Roy
5 – LaMarcus Aldridge
6 – Andre Miller
6 – Greg Oden
6 – Martell Webster
7 – Travis Outlaw
1 – Jerryd Bayless
3 – Nicolas Batum
4 – Rudy Fernandez
6 – Steve Blake
0 – Juwan Howard
7 – Dante Cunningham
2 – Joel Przybilla
1 – Jeff Pendergraph
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
HMTL remove some of the +'s
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
My one concern in this group is Bayless.
With his amount of playing time you’d think he’d have a few spots in the top 20. Especially the way he’s always referred to as a spark off the bench.
Juan has only 3 in the top 50, they are ranked performance wise 33rd ,47th, 50th, but that doesn’t concern me as much as Bayless. Bayless also has only 3 in the top 50.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
In the Utah game
The announcers mentioned how Jerry Sloan credited having a long stretch without major injury as a source of their crazy hot streak. It’s value is not always apparent to fans, but consistency is key.
Consistency, a word I should have definitely used, that’s really a lot of what it’s all about.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
I’ve edited the post – let me pull down a paragraph that likely wasn’t there when you read it.
To state it in terms of games played with a full 48 minutes:
We’ve played 58 games and our top 3 units have spent 5.45 games together.
The Hawks have played 55 games, and their top 3 units have played together for a whopping 28.48 games this season. 5.45 games compared to 28.48, It’s like trying to compare Dakota Fanning to Demi Moore. I might like Dakota better, but if I’m a producer I don’t give Dakota the role of a ladder-climbing-corporate-backstabber trying to give Michael Douglas the shaft. She doesn’t have the experience.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
5.45 games ZOMG
Seeing that, it puts in context why Nate wants Roy to play and Batum to start the rest of the year. If we get those guys along with Andre and LA some run together for the rest of the year, no matter what happens with the playoffs this season, we’ll at least have some continuity going into next year.
I have never seen a year where for great lengths of time our offense stalls out, and our defense puts on a premium “Swiss Cheese” commercial, as it has too many times this year.
First of all thank you just for the laugh. Love the Swiss Cheese sentence!
Thank you for all of your hard work and it is something as a fairly new to basketball fan..that I didn’t really think about. Makes a ton of sense.
One of these days I will get the grey box thing....only the first part was supposed to be in the box!
in HTML you close a pair of tags with a slash inside the ending one ..
less than – slash – blockquote – greater than
you gotta add the slash
Re-sign Travis Outlaw !
You don't have to use HTML in this environment
You can simply highlight the text you want to blockquote, and then click on the quote icon " in the line between the subject box and the message box.
Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!
well, when you do that you get the blockquote blockquote HTML tags...
pasted around the highlighted text, so that is the HTML I am talking about.
Now, if you happen to hit the little quote icon you are talking about THEN type your text and then hit the little quote icon again, you will note that the blockquote tag that is nicely pasted in does not have the slash in it, so instead of closing the blockquote, you start a new one with a new opening tag. I think that is Nats problem, and so by understanding how to check your HTML tags, you can avoid the problem….
:-)
Re-sign Travis Outlaw !
People get tripped up by it all the time.
I’ve gotten in the habit of using the preview button any time I quote, link something, or insert a picture. That helps.
thanks nats
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
i really liked this post
makes lots of sense to me. i’ve been feeling like portland’s deep bench is a blessing and a curse all at once. thank you for keeping track of those stats and presenting them so eloquently.
Thanks, the stats aren’t to tough, but I labor over the commentary.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
I am impressed with the new approach - more kudos to the coaching staff for keeping us in the hunt!
Thanks for this great effort. It seems a valid analysis and you don’t need to put the rest of the teams in for me to believe it. Here’s hoping when you come off shift this morning you will see all the love you are getting and fall asleep content (but not on the road!).
"The one thing we said about this team right away is they mirror what their coach's personality is and that's to be hard-nosed and play extremely hard and play with intensity." - Alvin Gentry
Thanks, we’re really ramping up at work and I almost killed this post because of it.
Glad I changed my mind, and thanks again.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
hahaha, Nic is Fanning, and Greg is Hannah Montana.
Now let me go, I work for a living.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
rec
amazing post. I really appreciate the work you put into this and it’s quite eye-opening, even though I had already assumed there was more to what was going on than just bad/play and/or coaching (depending on who you’re talking to), I wasn’t sure just what that might be. Looks like you may have found the key!
Now if only we could avoid enough injuries for long enough to shore up the rotation…
The 5-player rotations are surprising, if not shocking.
Our top 3 units have played together for less than a 10th of the season, while the Hawks top 3 units have played together for a little over half the season.
Hopefully everything’s a little more settled now, and we get some burn time together.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
Why do ex-blazers do so well on their new teams?
Sergio never scored 18 pts. in PDX, did he?
Is it the Sarge?
Sergio
rode the pine in Sacramento…because they are so good. Most NBA players can score 18 points given enough minutes. When you are the Knicks and your options are Duhon or Sergio, then you are going to give Serg 30 minutes. It is what it is
Great work bro
You are second to none in terms of getting an auto-rec from me.
Another brilliant post. And I mean brilliant as in jscot brilliant, not Marvin brilliant :-p
Thanks prez, good to see ya.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."
This is all true, but I'm not sure what any of it changes
If’s are fun to contemplate I guess. If Oden could ever stay healthy, he’d be X. If Roy could play a full season, the team would do Y. If Nate would’ve played his best players from day 1 instead of screwing around for the first quarter of the year, maybe our record would be Z.
And for what its worth, the team has underwhelmed even when mostly healthy
by Theghostofsomeonefamous on Feb 24, 2010 2:36 PM PST reply actions
Fantastic post. Tom Ziller did something like this at Sactown Royalty, and I really wanted to see the Blazer angle.
So cool to see the stats. This does explain so much of the inconsistency.
I don’t really have much to say, I just want to express that I really enjoyed this and I’m glad you posted it.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Hollinger
just put up an article (Insider Only) regarding this same concept or a slight twist anyway discussing injured teams vs healthy teams. Can read it here:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-100226
Thought this was particularly interesting:
MOST MISSED GAMES BY TOP-6 PLAYERS
Team – Games
Portland – 162
Golden State – 108
New Jersey – 85
Detroit – 81
I had a guy telling me yesterday that the GS situation was far worse than PTB.
– thanks for the link.
Romance me with that Roy rainbow shot which took flight from way beyond the arc and sailed so high that before it came back down to earth sealing the victory, it kissed the rafters and said "You're mine baby."

































