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Organizing the Roster

I've gotten a few mailbag questions lately that deserve to be in a post of their own either because of importance or answer length.  This one is probably both, plus it reflects a bunch of other questions that people are asking, so here you go:

Dave,

The Marcus Camby trade looks like a step in the right direction organizing the roster.  How will the Blazers sort out the lineup in the next year?  What do they need to be successful?

Knowing what we know now, assuming neither has a career-ending injury, Greg Oden and Joel Przybilla are the centers of the immediate future.  I know Marcus Camby just arrived but I've stated before I don't think he signs here long-term.  If it makes you feel better positing that the Blazers let Joel hang around one more year and plan on using Camby for the next 2-3 then by all means throw his name in.  The caveats are that Marcus is in his mid-30's already and that you're looking at investing $20-25 million next year on those three centers, which is pretty expensive.  For that reason alone Jeff Pendergraph is a much more likely option in that third center role.  In any case, you're set at this position, if nothing else because nobody better is going to be available to you at a reasonable price.

With the recent trade power forward is locked up as well.  LaMarcus Aldridge isn't going anywhere as a Base Year Compensation player.  He's going to eat enough of the minutes that you don't mind running Dante Cunningham, Jeff Pendergraph, or even one of your other forwards out there to back him up.

Since his defensive ability became evident last season I've felt that Nicolas Batum is destined for the starting role.  His emerging offensive confidence strengthens that impression. He's going to be one of those guys the Blazers will regret having off the court for any length of time.  He's going to blend well with everybody else and will produce without automatically having to score.  I don't think Martell Webster stays happy as a back-up.  He's cheap so the Blazers won't mind having him around but I've heard from decent sources that he's desired by more than one team.  I assume eventually the Blazers will take somebody up on the offer, replacing him with a steady vet or a draftee (either one of which makes a natural reserve).  In the meantime Martell plays behind Batum, perhaps becoming part of a smaller, scoring-oriented lineup as well.  Maybe the Blazers dream up another use for him.  What to do with Martell is one of the more perplexing questions facing the Blazers at the moment.

Obviously Brandon Roy is the starter at shooting guard.  No question about that.  But this is where it becomes more interesting.  You're looking at three names clogging the smaller positions:  Andre Miller, Jerryd Bayless, and Rudy Fernandez.

I don't believe Miller lasts beyond the second year of his contract.  I guess the third year getting picked up is a possibility but that's the outer edge of his tenure here.  He was never intended to be a permanent solution.  That leaves two names, a single position up for grabs, and one key question:  Do you believe that either Bayless or Fernandez can play point guard alongside Roy and Batum?

If you're looking for the traditional, one-stop-shopping playmaker the answer to that question is no, at least from what we've seen.  However I'm not entirely convinced Roy and Batum need a complete point guard, provided Nic can eventually bring the ball up the court a little.  Could the Blazers go point-guard-less, playing three guys with OK-to-good handling ability and passing sense?  If so then both Bayless and Fernandez are candidates for that third guy.  Rudy needs the ball less, has way more range on his shot, and is a more versatile passer.  The problem with Rudy is that he can't defend NBA point guards.  In reality he might not be able to defend NBA guards period.  You'd have to switch matchups to hide him defensively.  Or maybe you posit that an Oden-Przybilla-Aldridge-Cunningham-Batum frontcourt can cover those bases.  Bayless can probably learn to defend point guards but he needs the ball and his style of play to flourish on offense.  Neither one is a perfect fit as a starter.  Either one would do well as a third guard, depending on what you want.  I expect next fall we'll start seeing more experimenting along these lines.

The longer-short-term solution might well involve packaging Webster and whichever of the Bayless/Fernandez duo you like less as that third guard for a starting point guard who fits well...someone to become the heir apparent to (perhaps usurper of) Andre Miller's position.  That would leave Oden and Przybilla at center, Aldridge and Batum at forward with Cunningham and either that rook or vet backing them up, Roy and New PG at guard with either Bayless or Fernandez as your third.  Pick up an emergency third point guard, develop Jeff Pendergraph a little as a PF/C reserve and you have a solid lineup there.  The problem, as always, will be finding the point guard you want at that price.  You won't be getting an All-Star but if they can find their clear starter I don't think the Blazers would mind.

Click through to read about the critical extra ingredient the Blazers will need to be successful.

Star-divide

Here's the thing, though...none of this will make a bit of difference unless the Blazers also develop a key factor they've been missing:  a clear pecking order on the team.  Every great team, every great lineup, has one.  If you're a 90's-era Blazer you better make sure Clyde and Terry are copacetic with what you're doing before you go jacking up 20 shots (which basically means you better be really hot that night).  If you're a 70's-era Blazer you find out how you fit in around Walton and Lucas, not over the top of them.  No matter who the L*kers pick up--Odom, Artest, Andrew Bynum--you know who's in charge of that team.  If you don't know you're going to get smacked down.  More to the point, you're not going to get the ball even if you do see the court.  Tony Parker wanted to be a star in San Antonio long before Coach Popovich and Tim Duncan let him.  He had to understand whose team this was before he emerged fully.  It's no accident he emerged fully as Duncan hit his apex and slowly declined.  And by the way, when Michael Finley and Richard Jefferson came in there, stars or Olympians or not, they were distant third place.

One of the main issues with the recent roster is multiple guys like Webster, Outlaw, Bayless, and Fernandez who are considered quasi-stars in the making, who in essence say, "Give me 20 shots a game and I'll become your next big guy."  The problem is, a lot of NBA guys can say that same thing.  Only the best of the best actually get 20 shots per game and those positions are almost always hard-earned.  The worth of most NBA players is determined precisely by what they do when they don't get 20 shots...how they fit in alongside the guys who do. 

On this team you have two crystal-clear main scorers in Roy and Aldridge.  Maybe you could argue they need one more...maybe.  They certainly don't need multiples.  On a normal team the one or two guys in the lead--your Bryants, LeBrons, Garnett and Pierces, Duncan and Parkers--would have thumped the Potential Insurrection Brigade into shape.  But this team was constructed almost whole cloth out of young players who are either learning how to do that or learning how to take that.  I know Brandon Roy is a leader on and off the court.  I wonder, though, how many times Brandon has looked a teammate in the eye and said, "If you take that shot again instead of me I'm going to make sure you don't see the ball for a month."  I wonder how well some guys would take to hearing that...whether they'd consider Portland a fit anymore under those circumstances.

This is one of the reasons we've been arguing for more veterans for a while now even if that means slighting some of the young guys.  Players like Juwan Howard and (presumably) Marcus Camby are solid gold in this situation because they can contribute fully without disrupting the order of the team a bit.  Is this ever going to be Howard's team?  Is it ever going to be Howard's night?  How many times is it even going to be Howard's shot?  Those days are a decade past him.  But when you look up at the end of the season Howard, Camby, and non-52-point version of Andre Miller will have won as many games for this team as the four players mentioned above.  They don't have to ask about the pecking order. Roy doesn't have to tell them a thing.  They get it, they know where they fit, and they know how to get the most out of their games within that framework.

This is also an argument for smart consolidation of the younger part of the roster.  If you can trade a couple of those guys for a definitive starter (as mentioned above) you not only clarify roles you allow more of a chance for the players who remain.  Bigger and more consistent opportunities translate into players staying happier, less ambiguity and discontent surrounding your stars, and thus less need for the stars to crack the whip.

Having Jerryd Bayless dominate a couple games, Rudy Fernandez set a rookie record for threes, Martell Webster churn out awe-inspiring quarters, and Travis Outlaw hit buzzer-beaters certainly makes the team more exciting.  In the long run having it all happen on the same team, a team which lacks consistent performances from any of said players, probably doesn't make the team better.  Eventually we need fewer guys to get excited about (that kind of excited, anyway) and more guys to depend on.  Clockwork predictable .700 ball beats randomly exciting .550 ball every time.

Until this roster gets a few chemistry calluses and truly becomes Roy's and Aldridge's team from top to bottom they're not going to find the rhythm and sustained success they need in order to go deep in the playoffs.  If it doesn't happen, no matter who we bring in here, we're going to see Roy and Aldridge continue to be the main guys but everybody else ebbing and flowing intermittently.  With enough talent you can still get wins that way but you won't win long or clearly enough to beat the teams where everybody knows who they are and has committed to same.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

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great post

this, in a nutshell, is the thing to watch the next 12 months:

The longer-short-term solution might well involve packaging Webster and whichever of the Bayless/Fernandez duo you like less as that third guard for a starting point guard who fits well

I’ve been saying for over a year now that we only have long-term room for either Rudy or Bayless, not both. I’m still convinced of that. Martell is the obvious (and only remaining) choice to package one of them with to go out and get it done. throw in draft picks and cash. Now, WHO can we go get? Devin Harris might be available this summer. Not perfect, but he’s just 26 years old and can do most of what you want your PG to do.

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:22 AM PST reply actions  

That, I think, may be one of the more interesting questions of the summer

Personally I’m saving it until then but I have a preliminary eye on about three players, maybe four.

—Dave

by Dave on Feb 18, 2010 12:25 AM PST up reply actions  

come on, don't tease us like that

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Are three of them Chris Paul? :)

by JonathanPDX on Feb 18, 2010 12:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Let's guess:

Billups
Nash
Felton
Joe Johnson?

by travis13 on Feb 18, 2010 12:37 AM PST up reply actions  

LOL

0-fer. However Joe Johnson would be interesting in a non-point-guard point-guard way. Most consider him and Brandon similar.

—Dave

by Dave on Feb 18, 2010 2:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Devin Harris, Tony Parker, Ramon Sessions, …

by Norsktroll on Feb 18, 2010 3:55 AM PST up reply actions  

pfeee

no 3pt shot, need lot of ball

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 18, 2010 3:58 AM PST up reply actions  

All younger versions of the Andre Miller type. A number of players are imaginable, it’s not like there is a shortage of good young PGs around the league only we have trouble securing one. I don’t care if the PG shoots 3s or not, I care if he sets up other players and is a scoring threat, and ideally a good defender of his position. Besides, Harris and Parker shoot 30% from three. That’s enough to not sag off completely, but allow them space to operate.

by Norsktroll on Feb 18, 2010 6:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed on Miller point

But we all here had concerns about fit, did we?

And I forgot to mention no one of them playing good D. And I don’t think we need one more star like Harris or Parker. Agree with Dave on good role players instead…

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 19, 2010 12:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Parker should certainly be a target...

That Spurs team won’t be around much longer, and when it goes, Parker should be available for a reasonable price.

He would bring fantastic experience without being far too old. And while he’s not a the perfect complement to Roy, given his mediocre outside shot, he’s proven that he can play with another star guard who likes to attack the hoop, as well as a big man who needs to be fed. Interestingly, Parker and Miller have almost identical PERs this year.

The big question: how will his game hold up as he ages? Small PGs who rely on speed don’t age with grace.

Two more names to consider:

Mo Williams. Seems like he might be available if LBJ leaves Cleveland. Roy isn’t half the passer that LBJ is, so I don’t see Williams as a great fit, but he might be a solid option.

Andre Iguodala. No, we wouldn’t have a real PG, but Andre can handle the ball and dish it pretty well. And unlike Rudy, he’s a lock-down defender. Between Andre and Batum our perimeter D would be so good that we might not need a real PG with Oden/LA/Joel providing a great backstop.

"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave

by DC Blazer on Feb 18, 2010 6:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Good choice on Parker.

Don’t forget he was a teammate of Batum’s in the Nationals and Parker is an ideal of Batum’s so the Chemistry is there. But from what I have read, I would still push Mills for this year and next while we still have Dre. Bring over Petco for the third string and move JBay and Rudy to back-up SG as neither is really a pure PG.

hg

by BBK on Feb 18, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions  

I like Parker

he could postentially do for Portland what Billups has done for Denver

every mountain-climbing expedition needs a “sherpa” who’s been up to the summit, before

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

If anyone, Bayless is the parkeresque type on the team.

by Norsktroll on Feb 19, 2010 12:17 AM PST up reply actions  

right

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 19, 2010 1:03 AM PST up reply actions  

How about Mill?

I haven’t heard his name mentioned, but he should be in the running for 3rd pg at least. If we keep Dre through next year, he may be ready for starting or the second.

It has been speculated that Martell may be Groomed to be a reserve 2G with BRoy beating himself up so much and needing more rest.. That is if Rudy and or JBay becomes the back up PG.

Batman may also play the four at times to relieve LMA. Nevertheless, for now, Cambyman, Dante’s Inferno and Batman, makes up a pretty good defensive team. With Camby and Batum and BRoy getting health, I hope, there is many options that we have this year that could carry over to deciding for next year.

because of all the questions that I alone have, that includes some of our European players, I think I will think about it this year. It is too early to tell

hg

by BBK on Feb 18, 2010 9:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Let's see now ...

you package Rudy and Martell for a quality PG (which I agree we need). But now you’re absent our three best 3 point shooters (Blake, Martell and Rudy). The 3 is an enormous weapon in today’s NBA so I think it highly unlikely that we’d lose all three of those guys …. or maybe not even two of them.

Bayless though would be viable.

If this Blazer team doesn't light your fire, then your wood is wet!

by TwoDeep on Feb 18, 2010 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

three point shooters need to bring another skill

On top teams, the guy who spaces the floor also excels at something else. Battier and Bowen are/were good defenders, Billups orchestrates the offense, etc. etc. Although there is some indication that Martell might be developing into a decent defender, and there’s speculation that Rudy could play in the backcourt with Roy, neither is there yet. Both rely on the three point shot as their calling card. The three point shot is one of the easiest parts of the NBA game to improve as your career goes along.

It’s much more likely that Nic and Jerryd learn to shoot the 3 proficiently than Martell and Rudy learn to defend or attack the rim as well as Nic and Jerryd. This is particularly the case given that Nic and Jerryd are a good deal younger.

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 9:09 AM PST up reply actions  

They are all young

24 (Rudy) is still young historically

Roybot: "Then he said "My girlfriend is from LA." to which I replied "Well then you need to find a new girlfriend."’

by 92wastheyear on Feb 18, 2010 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree pretty much completely. Except for one big thing.

You did not mention Greg Oden at all in the pecking order section, and I believe that he will be a huge part of this team if we chose to resign him.

From what I have seen of him, Oden is almost as dominate offensively as anyone on our team besides Roy. He was one of the league leaders in FG% and when he wasn’t shooting the ball, he was drawing a double team almost every single time. In my mind, he has much more offensive potential than Aldridge.

LMA is great, but until he develops a legitimate inside game and even a semblance of a left hand, he is rather one dementional offensivly. His shot is awesome, but you live and die by the jump shot.

Oden can dominate if he gets minutes, and I see the real problem down the stretch being how to balance his touches with Roy’s.

The rest of the team will need to figure it out, and Dave you said exactly what I think needs to happen, but I hope and do truly believe that if Oden stays healthy he can be an incredibly dominate center on both ends of the court.

by dip city on Feb 18, 2010 12:28 AM PST reply actions  

This.

Healthy Oden will be a 3rd or maybe even 2nd option on offense. As always though, we’ve got the ‘he has to stay healthy’ clause…but then again, if he doesn’t, I don’t think we have much of a shot at a championship anyway. So I feel like we have to build as if he will be, as the reward is worth the risk.

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Feb 18, 2010 12:32 AM PST up reply actions  

yeah, Oden is already a much more efficient offensive player than Aldridge

I don’t see how he’s behind Aldridge on the pecking order, healthy permitting.

Aldridge is a good player, but just not efficient enough to be the #2 guy on a title team, to say nothing of his other shortcomings.

Free AK1984

by jksnake99 on Feb 18, 2010 12:33 AM PST up reply actions  

I love LMA, but Oden is dominates the attention of the other team

He stronger and bigger and more athletic that almost every single center in the league, and every player who has ever played against him knows it. There is no center who has a more complete package than Oden.

He not the strongest (but damn close), not the biggest (also close), and not the fastest (but way bigger and stronger than anyone fast than him), but combined he may have the most potential of any center in the league.

It is a bold statement, but I think it is completely possible. I hope the management can try and look past the injuries and see the amazing potential.

by dip city on Feb 18, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions  

But, what if??

With Greg in the low post or right now Camby LMA’s shots are more important. Therefore Greg or Camby and LMA would be the combo second option. depending on what the opponent’s tries to take away. Any way you look at it our one two three punch with Batum and Dre for now looming in the back ground, that makes for a tough team to handle.

Also, if you are talking about shortcomings don’t forget Greg’s fouls. Nevertheless both are young and both can work on their shortcomings

hg

by BBK on Feb 18, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions  

I see LMA as the #3 option, assuming Oden develops and stays healthy

Greg is Kareem, LMA is Worthy, Roy is Magic (not a perfect analogy, but you get the drift)

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

True!

This is my only one issue with this great (a mean GREAT) post by Dave! Maybe greatest and clearest post I ever read from you, Dave!

LMA is better scorer than Greg, obviously. Even without post game. But being better scorer and being better offensive player and/or offensive coordinator – is a lot different! LMA creates only for himself. Period. Even with not-so-polish offensive player we have in Oden right know, he contributes in TEAM offense much-much more than LMA. All those double-teams he commands and passes to the cutters are very-vere good! Havn’t seen that from LMA at all.

Speaking about PG I still see one man way ahead of others for this job. Its Captain Kirk. He fits perfectly with this group bcs:

1) He can shoot 3s
2) He defends 1-2 and occasionally 3 positions very well
3) He don’t need ball in his hands to be effective
4) He knows exactly about his pecking order
5) His age is right coincide with our team core.

Maybe price isn’t exactly right. But if we’ll be able to convert Martell or Dre into him and look at things closely in his last contract year (2010-2011) before long-term decisions, i’m all for it.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 18, 2010 3:29 AM PST up reply actions  

why would we want hinrich

We just traded away a guy who basically does the same things but better.

Sure, Blake didn’t play great defense, but Hinrich stinks on offense.

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 8:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Oh, come on!

I don’t need stats to evaluate players. If Kirk gonna shoot stand-still-wide-open 3s like Blake did, his numbers will look much better believe me. And why we need another offensive stud with Roy-Oden-LMA on the court? Kirk is GREAT defender and better distributor/coordinator than Steve is. Its about team chemistry and settled roles on the team, not about collecting the best available players on the market!

One more word on stats. Just look at Chuck Hayes stats and than remember what he did to LMA last year in the Playoffs. Period.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 19, 2010 12:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Who's your daddy?

Fascinating to read about locker room heierarchies and the notion that every team is “somebody’s team.” LeBron/Kobe/Roy are obvious, I’m assuming Durant and Nash?, Dirk, Parker…who are the guy(s) on each team presumed to be the straw that stirs the drink for that team? Thank you, I’ll hang up and listen.

by torridjoe on Feb 18, 2010 12:29 AM PST reply actions  

the more obvious observation

is that the team’s that DON’T have a clear “number one” guy, all generally underperform, and never seem able to climb out of mediocrity. just looking at the west, notice something?

Lakers – Kobe
Denver – Melo
Dallas – Dirk
Utah – Deron
Phoenix – Nash
OKC – Durant
SA – Duncan
Portland – Roy
Houston – Yao
New Orleans – Paul
Memphis – ?
clippers – ?
GS – ?
Sacramento – ?

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:33 AM PST up reply actions  

after tonight, obviously.

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:37 AM PST up reply actions  

but he's also a rookie

which mean he can’t really “own” the team yet. they are giving it to him, and he can certainly take it on. very similar to Roy. he kind of took on the team late in year 1, then built from there. same thing with Tyreke now that they’ve cleared out Martin. But he’s gotta couple of years yet to really mold the team around himself.

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Sure rookies can "own" teams

Lebron, Durant, Shaq, Robinson, Paul, Iverson, Jordan, Grant Hill, Damon Stoudamire, Vince Carter, and Elton Brand all pretty clearly “owned” their teams as rookies, and you could argue the same thing about Roy, Rose, Jennings, and a few other guys as well. If a guy comes in and is immediately the top guy in the pecking order and go-to guyr, how is that any different than “owning” the team?

Admittedly, a lot of these cases were due to a leadership void in the rest of the roster, but how is that any different than Kobe “owning” the post-Shaq, pre-Gasol Lakers, or Lebron “owning” the Cavs of the last few years?

#52

by Royster on Feb 18, 2010 10:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Larry Bird

Boston flipped from 20-60 to 60-20 in his rookie year

Red made some other shrewd moves, but that was a turnaround for the ages

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions  

A few thoughts, and another way to put it:

Thanks for this post, Dave.

This hit me earlier this season and it’s another way to look at this roster, not unlike the way you are: the ol’, seemingly-dumb cliche that this team has TOO much talent isn’t exactly incorrect. KP has done such a great job of identifying young talent, and I think Rudy, Bayless, Martell, Nic, and maybe even Dante can become 15-20 ppg guys on good teams. Eventually. Maybe. But these guys are young, and Nate’s refrain of “you gotta sacrifice to succeed” just doesn’t work with young, developing talent. Frankly, how can we expect someone like Rudy to come off the bench and play 15 minutes per game over the next three years? Consolidating and bringing in vets makes some sense, but that’s tough because although you find better role players and the team may strengthen, you’re losing talent and you won’t get proper value in return. There’s a chance you kick yourself when one or two of those guys goes on to have great careers, and your Camby or your Nash that you consolidated for goes limping away from an NBA career. Damn, right?

So, it’s tricky. It’s certainly not a bad problem to have, but we’re all going to second guess everything, and understandably so.

One thing I do disagree with you on, Dave: I think Bayless CAN and has already done pretty well as the PG. It’s not his natural position, but give him time, and he’ll work his way into it. I really do think we’re seeing it.

by travis13 on Feb 18, 2010 12:30 AM PST reply actions  

great post

the likelihood is that we WILL trade one of these young guys and he will go on to have a nice career. and someone will second guess us for making the deal. but what you have to remember is that he wouldn’t have gotten the same opportunity here. he never would have became that player. If you have two second young guys both getting 15mpg on an inconsistent undefined basis – neither one will reach his potential, or at least not at any fast rate. But trade one of them and give the other 30 mpg, and bam, all of a sudden he’s going to develop that much better.

could you move the wrong one? sure you could. but doing nothing almost guarantees you are wasting both of them.

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:36 AM PST up reply actions  

I know, I know

And Outlaw is already one of these casualties. One of my favorite guys on the team. Ultimately, after being pretty upset, I know he’ll have more of an opportunity to grow on another team.

by travis13 on Feb 18, 2010 12:39 AM PST up reply actions  

and conversely

Batum (and Cunningham for now) will both get bigger roles and more minutes to develop into better players. Keeping Travis very likely would have stunted Batum’s growth the rest of this year.

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:42 AM PST up reply actions  

I thought the opposite.

It has several shortcomings.

1) Stating as a “trueism” that young players can’t understand and buy into the concept of hard work and sacrifice. That may be true with some young people. It may be what a lot of people here are like. But it isn’t true of everybody. Try asking those Marines in Afghanistan if they believe it is true. I truly feel sorry for anyone who thinks concepts such as the ones Nate preaches are long past their day and no longer have meaning.

2) Exhibiting indecision. It is a wishy-washy argument to worry both about having too many guys who get in each other’s way in developing and having some of those guys go elsewhere and blossom. Take a position and defend it. If you believe the roster is too crowded, indicate the guys you think should stay and forget about what happens to the guys you want to let go. Making decisions is not always easy. And sometimes you make wrong ones. Or at least ones that look bad in hindsight. The people who seem to think that being a GM is easy are likely the same ones who are first to criticize after the fact. Don’t believe this? Just look at the number of people who say Pritchard screwed up by not taking Durant over Oden.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 18, 2010 7:48 AM PST up reply actions  

That may happen

It would be MUCH easier if the PG of the future were already on this team.

—Dave

by Dave on Feb 18, 2010 12:37 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't get the hype over Mills.

At all.

Really. At all.

Garden Variety Internet Denizen. Play Jerryd Bayless.
WORD UP.STAY.FRESCO

by Dheepan on Feb 18, 2010 1:19 PM PST up reply actions  

backup QB syndrome

the list of NBA championship PGs under 6’ tall in the last 30 years is a

(wait for it)

very short one

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

with the L*kers they run the triangle

and their PG is generally tall

Boston has Rondo, he’s 6’3 with exceptionally long arms

The Spurs have won with Johnson and Parker. They’re the exception. I would have no problem with Tony Parker in a Blazer uniform, but I suspect Pattty Mills is “no Tony Parker” (TP is taller and weighs a bit more than PM, regardless)

The best example I can give Blazer fans is Damon Stoudamire. When Mighty Mouse was in the game, he was a liability on defense (and he was even more “stout” than Mills is) The Blazers had to “cheat over” to help defend Damon’s man when he was posted up, and that tend s to create open shots for the opponent. Stoudamire could penetrate but he could never finish in the tall timber, and from what I’ve seen of Patty, he’s similarly “challenged” when he ventures into the paint

Mills is a role player, not a potential NBA starting PG on a championship team. That’s my take and I’m sticking to it

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 19, 2010 9:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Brandon Roy?

I was blinded to that by sick alley-oops and facials

not to mention Greg crotchifyin’ suckas

by Tyler Durrden on Feb 18, 2010 2:36 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Interesting stuff

Bayless, Rudy, and Martell may have a chance to step up in the closing of the season and show who really belongs. I like them all and would love to see all three stay here long term but we need some consistency. This team still has a lot of growth and work to put in before they can answer these questions and Roy and Aldridge need some more playoff experience. In the end I think if Oden can recover and come back healthy next year he might determine who stays and goes (from a basketball standpoint) more than anyone including Roy.

By the way, I read this:

Or maybe you posit that an Oden-Przybilla-Aldridge-Cunningham-Batum frontcourt can cover those bases.

And thought you said LINEUP, not frontcourt. Can you imagine trying to match up against that?

by JonathanPDX on Feb 18, 2010 12:42 AM PST reply actions  

good post
Bayless, Rudy, and Martell may have a chance to step up in the closing of the season and show who really belongs.

Absolutely! the other HUGE benefit of the Camby trade is that we should know more about all 3 by the end of the year. that can only help our summer plans.

I like them all and would love to see all three stay here long term but we need some consistency

Exactly! Knowing you can count on a guy for X night in and night out is MUCH more valuable than having a guy who will give you 2x one night, and 0x the next. The averages are the same, but you will win a lot more with a team full of the first type of guys. This is one reason Aldridge is more valuable than many give him credit for. Despite his shortcomings, he has gotten to the point where you know you can pencil him in for 18 and 8 every night. You need guys like that on your team – even if they never go off for 40, or don’t draw a ton of FTs or score a bunch in the last 3 minutes. That 18 and 8 still was a huge part of the win.

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Very True

The trade clears things up so much. Watching Cunningham in person last night I was very impressed, I think he has the potential to be a rotation player. This kind of team needs a guy who can play smart defense, move without the ball, and hit the open jumper every time. I usually don’t get excited about rookies but we don’t need All Stars, we need role players and both our young kids look like the right fit, and cheap too!

by JonathanPDX on Feb 18, 2010 12:51 AM PST up reply actions  

dante is an ideal 8thish man

knows his role, wont get unhappy with it. can produce instantly on both ends without getting plays called for him. doesn’t make bonehead mistakes. great great pickup.

absolutely the kind of guy you love to have in that spot of the rotation.

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 1:00 AM PST up reply actions  

and able to play two positions.

#52 #10 #7

by Cablinasian on Feb 18, 2010 1:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Yeap!

Totally agree. We have enough talent on this team! Bring in some hard working role guys to smooth out things.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 18, 2010 3:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Exactly and it goes even deeper

To win a championship not only requires great talent but consistency as well. In the finals the intensity of defense is so cranked up that windows of opportunity to complete the pass that leads to an open shot open and shut in split seconds – much tighter than regular season (we saw a slight example of this from OKC in their defense recently).

The player with the ball cannot afford that split second of doubt that his teammate is A) going to be there and B) is the going to make the shot and is therefore the right guy to pass to.

The only way to remove that costly split second of doubt before the passing window shuts is a past consistency of that teammate being there to catch the pass and consistently making the shot.

by LaughingJon on Feb 18, 2010 6:45 AM PST up reply actions  

we should know more about all 3 by the end of the year. that can only help our summer plans.

Quick commented the other day that KP hasn’t had the chance to see “everybody” play together with Oden and make a final assessment of “who should stay and who can go”. So there might be some hesitation from the front office to make changes this summer, based on the results of the regular season and playoffs

For example: after the Houston series, there was a general unhappiness re: the post season play of Blake and Outlaw. But they were not jettisoned until the next Feb (even though Miller was brought in to help with the PG position…Andre was clearly not KP’s “first choice” in July)

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 12:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Travis looks sad in that clippers shirt!

:(

"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.

by Blazin' on Feb 18, 2010 12:43 AM PST reply actions  

it's the clippers

Sad is the team’s official emotion

by Ben Schuarmer on Feb 18, 2010 10:27 PM PST up reply actions  

It is possible to win without a single star or clear pecking order

The pistons in 2004 definitely did not have a single star player. It was a combination of four great players, who all shared the offensive load evenly

It can be done, and the Blazers could do it with essentially the team we have now.

by dip city on Feb 18, 2010 12:44 AM PST reply actions  

that is the exception to the rule though

hard to think of another example in the past 50 years. do you really want to build your team around an anomaly?

"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare

by douglast on Feb 18, 2010 12:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Larry Brown

Veteran players…much different situation.

—Dave

by Dave on Feb 18, 2010 2:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Besides

I’m pretty sure that any team with Chauncey Billups has a pecking order. Chauncey just doesn’t put himself at the top of it scoring-wise. He’s directing traffic though and I doubt many people cross him.

—Dave

by Dave on Feb 18, 2010 2:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Agreed

I don’t think Denver is really Melo’s team, it’s Chauncey’s. Those guys all know what they were with Iverson, and what they are with Billups.

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 18, 2010 3:13 AM PST up reply actions  

right

the Billups trade turned the Nuggets around. Karl was interviewed last year and basically said the team was headed nowhere until Warkentein pulled off that heist

Paul
Billups
Camby? here’s hoping KP’s deal for Marcus will make a smidgen of the same impact

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 12:08 PM PST up reply actions  

typo

*Pau

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 3:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Kind of a hint to one of your picks for the job )))

Great fit on offence. Great leadership. My concern is age.. and defense.. as result of age too.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 18, 2010 3:44 AM PST up reply actions  

I don't buy the pecking order argument.

On some teams perhaps. And maybe to some degree on most teams. But as a nice simple concept that explains all the important stuff? Nope.

I’d say the guy at the top in Utan goes by the name of Jerry Sloan. And in San Antonio, Tim Duncan knows who the top guy is. The one wearing the sport coat. How about Orlando? Dwight Howard is the best player on that team, but Stan Van Gundy tops the pecking order.

Boston seems to be doing ok with three All-Star caliber players, plus some young talented guys that want to show their stuff. Perhaps it is because they buy into the concept of a team being better than a group of talented individuals. Basketball is still a thinking man’s game. Just ask a guy by the name of John down in LA. He did ok with it. Pecking order is fine when you have guys that may have trouble fitting in. But you don’t have to have it on the court. If you can execute effectively, you will get good shots and a well executed offense doesn’t depend on one or two guys taking those shots.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 18, 2010 8:32 AM PST up reply actions  

There are guys who put up efficiency and scoring numbers

comparable to the “Stars” who are not Stars. Becoming a star requires a certain level of performance, but essentially it is about being selected by the media/marketing world to represent the league. Perhaps there is something to this notion of American individualism! ;)

This is also why fans who focus their interpretation of the game on individual statistics are really missing the boat on what makes a team successful.

"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.

by Blazin' on Feb 18, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions  

the star thing is more about media and merchandising

Recent Boston and San Antonio teams similarly had multiple first rate scorers. And both could play lock down team D like the Pistons.

Star thing is mostly hype cause they want to make money. Teams win championships.

"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.

by Blazin' on Feb 18, 2010 2:50 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Yes

Agree on several levels.

One, it’s not so much a pecking order, as team focus and identity, and accepting roles within that concept. This could mean diferent levels of inequality, from the Kobe Lakers to the Billups Pistons.

Two, the alpha dog doesn’t have to become one through scoring, or at least just scoring, and it arguably helps if he isn’t – Duncan, KG, up to Russell. Even Jordan and Kobe are as obsessed with winning as scoring. The challenge for Roy is to lead as one whose skills are heavily scoring oriented; if he does yell at a teammate for taking a shot, I would hope it’s becaus it’s a bad one, not because it’s his.

Third, flowing from the second, is that it isn’t just about scoring. As Dave said, Chauncey creates the (scoring) pecking order, and doesn’t put himself on top in doing so. Same with KG, whose on court generalship was more on D. What this allows is for people to not just accept their roles, but embrace them, as they complement; and do so not out of submission, but finding their own identity. Ben Wallace might be a good example, though he did want his shots – but not too many, generally. Things may be a bit more complicated in Portland, where the elite starting defender, Greg and Nic, also have offensive potential. So yes, Nate (and Roy, and maybe LMA and Andre) will have to do some advanced calculus to find the right – and evolving – balance.

Finally, they might have to consider speeding things up a bit. Efficiency wins, but volume keeps people happy, unless you’re Shane Battier. A faster pace expands the pie.

by Epimenides on Feb 18, 2010 7:05 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Interesting points.

I too think of pecking order as a limited way of understanding locker room/chemistry dynamics. Every team is going to have a unique social structure. And different ones can be successful. But in general, with human relations in an organization, there is a tension between the organic social structures that arise from the group, and the top down structures preferred by management. There are many ways to negotiate this tension, but doing so effectively is critical. An organizing principle or shared mission is very helpful in this. For example, a strong desire to win a championship.

"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.

by Blazin' on Feb 18, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

You are saying

More or less even the Stars and the number one is really another role player?

hg

by BBK on Feb 19, 2010 4:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Well, technically .550 ball will beat .700 ball 12.7% of the time.

I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.

by haildablazer on Feb 18, 2010 1:15 AM PST reply actions  

Heard that the Knicks are planning on

waiving Brian Cardinal. Cardinal is a hustle player, a big body and average player. We have a roster spot available so why not use on him. He will certainly be able to produce more than Pendergraph. Worth a look!

by VinnyB on Feb 18, 2010 3:41 AM PST reply actions  

I disagree regarding the future of our

problem at PG. Bayless still has a ways to go but I believe that he will get there. How can you say that he can’t play with Roy? Roy isn’t Michael Jordan, if Brandon worked a little more than he might be a better fit for Jerryd. Roy has said that he could play with Bayless but YOU don’t think so? You must be right and Roy is wrong then! Bayless has yet to start a game with Roy and you’ll want to ditch him already? That’s messed up.
One thing I agree with is that Nate and Kevin (with Roy) will have to figure out what kind of PG they want. Do they want a classic playmaking PG like Miller, Kidd or a jumpshooting PG like Blake, M.Willams? There is one situation where I would consider trading Bayless, first the Nets would have to win the Lottery this summer. Next they obviously pick John Wall. Wall is a PG and Harris is a PG. They can’t really keep both so what do they do? I’d offer them either Miller and Webster for Harris and Dooling or Miller and Bayless for Harris. The only way New Jersey does this is if they get Wall otherwise we’d have to give up far too much for an inefficent offensive player. Harris’ PER this season is at 16.1 , Miller’s is at 17.5 and Bayless is at 15.2.
Assuming we get Harris, who controls the offense? Harris or Roy? Devin likes being the man in New Jersey so how will he take to being a jump shooting PG?
As I see it, what we need from our future PG is
1) at least average playmaking skills
2) ability and willingness to play without the ball
3) 3pt range
4) a lockdown defender

Bayless can still develop those quailites if they are taught to him and he is allowed to make mistakes. I can’t believe that we can actually discuss this when the season isn’t over yet. Now that Blake is finally gone, Bayless will get his chance to play the PG spot. We should know more at the end of the season so I wouldn’t give up on him just yet.

by VinnyB on Feb 18, 2010 4:36 AM PST reply actions  

Neither Harris nor Bayless

match your requirements… I see only C-Bill and Kirk do. With some flaws…

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 18, 2010 5:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Steve Blake.

If the Blazers decide to trade Bayless, I’d bet on Blake being back.

I don’t see Bayless going anywhere though. I think Pritchard has more faith in his guys than a lot of fans at BE do.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 18, 2010 8:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Actually, much more faith that i would like to see

If you would offered Bosh for LMA + some Rudys or Baylesses would you pull the trigger? I do. But I’am afraid KP would hesitate because of that “faith”, “love” and “my guys” labels on them.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 19, 2010 1:11 AM PST up reply actions  

I no longer waste my time wishing for fantasy trades.

And as Pritchard’s track record to date has racked up far more successes than failures, I have no problem siding with him when he thinks that “his” guys are keepers, or in his ability to accurately judge if a trade is good enough to warrant sending some of those guys out.

Can you tell us what you base your lack of faith on?

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 19, 2010 8:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Koponen

" It was as if the Suns hatched a fiendish plot to ruin John Wayne's movie career by casting him as a cowboy." - Dave 2/10/2010

by jamon51 on Feb 18, 2010 12:35 PM PST up reply actions  

he's got the size

but will he have the shot and the savvy? Time will tell

I’m tired of waiting for young Blazer PGs to develop; the future is next fall. Better to deal for an established veteran who will “stand up” to the coaching staff, instead of Nate/Demo trying to squeeze another poor kid into the recently-vacated Steve Blake mold

but if there’s any young PG who could do a Blake impersonation (and hopefully improve on it) it might be Petteri

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 3:55 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't see them

trying to squeeze Jerryd into a Blake mold.

This is another “Bedge fact”, that Nate only wants a PG like Blake. Facts don’t bear that out — he always played Jack at the end of games instead of Blake.

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 19, 2010 1:06 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm referring to risk averse

A/TO ratio. With Jerryd, it’s like taking a racehorse and yoking him up to a plough horse

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 19, 2010 8:57 AM PST up reply actions  

If you want Jerryd to be a great one

(and they do) it is far better to yoking him for a while so he doesn’t prance all over through the farmer’s wife’s vegetable patch. A great race horse has to learn to stay on the race track.

I don’t see Jerryd getting pulled every time he makes a mistake. I do see a conscious effort on his part to run the offense, and I do see him getting pulled if he is out of control on 2-3 plays in a row. That’s as it should be, in my book. We don’t want him to be only a scorer, or only an explosion waiting to happen. We want him to be a quality combo guard who can take care of the ball but is also an extremely dangerous scorer at times.

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 19, 2010 10:47 AM PST up reply actions  

especially now that we learn from Jason Filippi about Rudy being "untouchable"

I love these Euro interviews, the scouts will say things that KP would never let “slip out” over on this side of the pond

If Paul isn’t going to let Rudy be traded under any circumstances, then there’s only one role for Bayless in Portland, and that’s at PG. We can talk all we want to about “combo guards” and “the guy who plays alongside Roy doesn’t have to be a pure PG” but every contending team needs a ballhandler who can settle things down and get the team into the halfcourt set and make sure they get a good shot and not a turnover. Brandon is great but he’s not “that” guy. Neither is Rudy. Miller won’t last forever. If Jerryd doesn’t develop into the next Terry Porter (and soon) then the alternative is to “go shopping” for another young veteran PG before Andre is worn out. And we can scratch Rudy off the list of potential assets that KP has to deal with, if the owner has anything to say about it

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 19, 2010 4:29 PM PST up reply actions  

I am certainly no horse racing expert ...

… but to follow up on jscot’s post, I seem to recall hearing about trainers doing pretty much what you decribe – matching up a young colt with a older more docile animal.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 19, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Neither Harris nor Bayless

match your requirements… I see only C-Bill and Kirk do. With some flaws…

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 18, 2010 5:55 AM PST reply actions  

That photo is sad.

Though I like the trade, that photo of Blake and Outlaw is incredibly sad. They both look like they’ve been sent to their room for a timeout and don’t know what they did wrong.

by LaughingJon on Feb 18, 2010 6:50 AM PST reply actions  

well they were traded to the CLIPPERS

What happened to this season???? It went under the surgeon's knife. But its not over yet. Hold tough. This team will be battle hardened. Tough. Honed to a fine edge. They will be playing playoff style – nine man rotation – for a significant portion of the season. Dividends will be paid. - Tiparillo on Dec 15, 2009 11:48 AM PST on Game 26 Preview: Kings vs. Blazers on Blazersedge

by Tiparillo on Feb 18, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Darnell Valentine story

I shared this anecdote the other day…I remember reading a news story about when Darnell was traded to the Clips at midseason (to provide more PT for some young PG named Porter, BTW) and in typical Valentine fashion, he arrived at the LA gym all smiles and talking about “how glad he felt to be playing for the Clippers!”

The writer quipped that the LA trainer immediately rushed over to take Darnell’s temperature, because no one in his right mind would want to join that juggernaut back in the ’80s. Sometimes, the power of positive thinking is a crock. I think #14 learned that lesson the hard way, in LA

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 3:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Dave's lineup leaves us

with the same suspect lineup as before. Just exchange Batum and Webster. Bayless, Fernandez, Webster, Batum, Cunningham, Pendergraph; all those young middle of the road players won’t tke you anywhere because they’re role players. That puts the burden on Roy and Aldredge. Miller isn’t going to be here and Oden isn’t bankable. Looks like we’re back to where we started unless we pick up a third quality scorer. May I suggest Rudy May or Iguodala. I’m sure other players of similar high quality are available.

by oregonslee on Feb 18, 2010 7:01 AM PST reply actions  

Didn't Rudy May retire from the Expos back in '79?

I met him once in the early ’70s when he pitched for the Angels. Nice guy but not much of a basketball player at this point.

by LaughingJon on Feb 18, 2010 7:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Nor do trade proposals.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 18, 2010 8:38 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm definitely sure ....

… that trade proposals have no meaning, worth or value. At least the overwelming majority of them. Every now and then we get a thoughtful one. Norsetroll’s review of the potentially available centers a few weeks ago was an excellent rundown of who Portland might be considering and what it might take to make a deal happen.

Of course I still could be a flaming something, even if I am both sure and correct.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 19, 2010 7:29 AM PST up reply actions  

point guard

As far as long-term answer to point guard, I don’t think anyone should write off Patty Mills, I think he possibly could prove to be another Aaron Brooks.

by lsjogren on Feb 18, 2010 7:06 AM PST reply actions  

You want Aaron Brooks?

Player A: PER 12.95 , TS% 52.1 , 3P% .366 , Pts/40 17.9 , Ast/40 4.8 , Reb/40 3.1 , OffRtg 105 , DefRtg 108 (lower is better)
Player B: PER 15.22 , TS% 53.2 , 3P% .268 , Pts/40 20.2 , Ast/40 5.0 , Reb/40 3.1 , OffRtg 109 , DefRtg 111
Player C: PER 15.71 , TS% 54.4 , 3P% .395 , Pts/40 21.6 , Ast/40 5.4 , Reb/40 2.9 , OffRtg 107 , DefRtg 110

Who are they?

A – Brooks’ second season (‘08-’09)
B – Bayless’ second season (‘09-’10)
C – Brooks’ third season (‘09-’10)

My point? When you adjust for pace and minutes, Brooks’ stats aren’t that impressive. He’s about as efficient as Bayless. He’s a better shot from deep, and that’s about it. So, if Patty is another Brooks, that’s nice, but it’s nothing we don’t already have.

"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave

by DC Blazer on Feb 18, 2010 7:40 AM PST up reply actions  

speed, outside shot

Those two talents alone make Mills a useful piece and an easy fit on the roster.

by blacknoiseNW on Feb 18, 2010 8:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions  

Mills will always be a defensive liability, which is something we can’t particularly afford with Roy as our long-term SG. Other little point guards have been buffered by two quality defensive wings (Ginobili and Bowen helped out Parker in SA, Artest and Battier helped Brooks). But Mills will always be exploited no matter who he ends up switching onto so long as he’s playing in our backcourt (although Batum could help some).

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions  

that's my inclination

I guess being under 6’0 doesn’t necessarily cause point-guards to be a defensive liability, but the only player that short that isn’t considered poor on defense is probably Chris Paul (although your mileage may vary).

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Those two talents alone make Mills a useful piece and an easy fit on the roster

but not necessarily a PG. Mills could play alongside Roy, but the mismatched tempos that the two players prefer would be either comical or frustrating to watch…kind of like a pushmi-pullyou with two brains and no consensus

and “what atomiccafe said” re: tiny guards getting abused by average NBA guards

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions  

I brought up the size issue atomiccafe because Mill's isn't unusually small

as a bench player, I wouldn’t see Mill’s as being a clash of style with anyone

by blacknoiseNW on Feb 18, 2010 4:21 PM PST up reply actions  

I think he would probably do fine as a bench player (if he’s good enough offensively). I guess I misunderstood and thought you were talking about him as a long-term starter in the backcourt. At that point, his size would be a problem. In shorter stints against opposing backups, he wouldn’t be exploited probably.

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

gotcha

lsjogren had the top spot of this particular thread, and he made the comment “long term PG like Aaron Brooks”

I’ve speculated that one of the uses for a waterbug like Mills is to prepare the other players for the quickness of Brooks and other small PGs during practice sessions (think of it like an NFL “scout” team) Mills could also come off the bench and be a tempo-changing “PG” for a few minutes each half, but Bayless is already providing that and Jerryd has a better NBA body

Patty as the long-term starting PG alongside Roy? I think that’s a contrast in styles and tempo that would be like oil/water

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions  

The difference IS the outside shot

And it’s huge right now, since Bayless likes to shoot it, and misses it a lot.
One more summer of shooting 500 3s a day should get him up there, and then (health willing) he can be that force at Combo-guard.

by TheThinWhiteDuke on Feb 18, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Et tu Dave?

I guess I have to face the fact that I’m probably the only guy here who believes in McMillan’s idea of running out two units. I truly believe he wants to change the paradigm. Turn conventional wisdom on its ear and say “Hey, you all keep playing the way you want. We have two units which are both capable of whipping your butts and we’re about to prove it.”

Of course Nate wouldn’t say that. He’d just go out and do it.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 18, 2010 7:20 AM PST reply actions  

I would agree with you.

Which is exactly why I think Nate envisions a two unit concept with this team.

We see constant comment on this site about how we have so many good players, have logjams at positions, worry about minute crunches and are always proposing “consolidation” trades. So, if the primary reason we don’t see teams trying to run two separate units is the lack of 10 guys capable of earning significant rotation minutes and we have a team that has too much talent, why isn’t going with the concept a possibility?

Prior to the Camby trade, Portland’s roster had the following players who had proven they could start in the NBA:

Miller (PG)
Blake (PG)
Roy (SG)
Webster (SF)
Batum (SF)
Aldridge (PF)
Pryzbilla ©
Oden ©

That’s 8 of the 10 guys you need. Now add:

Outlaw (PF) – who last season was a 6th Man of the Year candidate
Fernandez (SG) – who was a starter on the Spanish National team

That’s 10 guys. With 5 guys on the roster still not accounted for.

He may not have a defined position, but Bayless seems to have shown this season that he can play in the NBA.

I didn’t include Juwon Howard as a proven starter, though based on his performance this season he’s shown he could easily play 15 – 20 minutes as the 2nd unit PF.

I am also willing to bet that there are a lot of people here who believe Danta Cunningham could develop into a starting caliber player and certainly could earn 15 – 20 minutes.

So where does the argument that going with a two unit arrangement is foolish and unworkable come into play for the Blazers?

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 19, 2010 7:50 AM PST up reply actions  

8 deep

5 starters, maybe 3 of them volume scorers, the other 2 know their role

a 6th man who can provide instant offense, change tempo

additional defensive role players, both on the perimeter and around the basket

of the role players, most of them should be able to make shots when left open

Alongside Roy, Oden, LMA and Batum, the needs that will need to be filled

—a veteran wing who can defend and shoot. Could be Martell, if he’s willing to sacrifice

—a 3rd big man who can defend, rebound and score. Camby is the protoype, a younger man will need to be acquired who can fill this role

—a PG who can play alongside Roy. Could be Bayless/Rudy…ideally a veteran with finals experience (Parker)

Guys like Cunningham and Pendergraph are always useful, but there’s no guarantee that they will morph into that #3 big man, or that they can fill that role as a “two-headed monster”. Keep in mind, last fall Roy said that down the stretch at the end of the season the Blazers’ rotation would “shrink” and they would play 8 guys instead of 2 units. That time is now. Guys like Pendergraph and Mills are going to be practice players, or only come into the game during garbage time, or in case of injury or foul trouble. It’s time to circle the wagons and get the playoff rotation executing at the highest level of efficiency possible.

The more complexity a system has, the greater the potential for mis-communication and breakdown. McMillian is a risk-averse coach, and now is the time to hunker down

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you are drawing little boxes and then trying to fit guys into them.

If some of our guys don’t fit the box, then you figure we should trade them for someone that does.

How about thinking outside the box? Why does Pritchard and McMillan have to follow some conventional script? A script that has more to do with the desire on the part of humans to draw lines around a thing so as to make it easier to explain.

I would rather look at the players we have and figure out a way to best utilize them and take advantage of the skills and abilities they bring to the table.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 19, 2010 7:57 AM PST up reply actions  

i think KP WANTS to follow "the script"

The script is to get your top players through the draft, establish those guys, then find or develop role players who fit alongside them. This is the Spurs model with Parker, Ginobili and Duncan, and I believe KP has spoken of his admiration for what Buford has done. KP’s public comments and his actions so far show his desire to build a long-term contender around home-grown superstars, like the Spurs. They have their top dogs in place, in LaMarcus, Oden and Roy. I believe KP has also KP showed he’s committed to LMA as a big-time building block through the extension, even if many fans don’t agree.

I would rather look at the players we have and figure out a way to best utilize them and take advantage of the skills and abilities they bring to the table.

The model is to bring in complementary players that bring out the best in your top players. I’m not sure why this is “putting them in a box.” All your role players should fit with your stars, otherwise you should trade them and get new ones who do.

That said, I think many of the players that can fit alongside Roy/Oden/LMA may be here already. Management seems to see Batum as such a role player, and Bayless as having potential to develop into a backcourt running mate for Roy. As 24L said above, Martell also looks like a prototypical defender/shooter role player. So if those guys develop nicely, that could potentially be six pieces we already have, and we would just be looking to add an additional guard (Rudy if he develops) and one more big.

by atomiccafe on Feb 19, 2010 8:35 AM PST up reply actions  

So what do you do if you are KP ....

… are following the model you describe, and find out that you have the golden touch, drafting more than 2 or 3 “core” guys?

Besides, the plan you describe does not preclude a two unit strategy. Should Pritchard find himself with 4 or 5 “core” quality guys and 5 or 6 first class “role” guys, he is then in a position to try implementing it.

Lets say Roy, LA and Greg are the “core” guys.

You then have Nic, Martell and Jerryd. You can find a lot of fans here who are of the opinion that at least one and possibly all three may be good enough to fit the “core” description.

Then, whether it is Blake and Joel, or Andre and Camby, you have two sets that perfectly fit the “role” definition. Cunningham is another and possibly Pendergraph. Add in three guys in Europe, two draft choices this summer and the ability to add a guy or two with the MLE and VE and there is good reason for Portland to believe they have the horses to accomplish what few teams can, even the elite of the league.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 19, 2010 3:20 PM PST up reply actions  

changes have been made, and changes will be made

I’m just advancing what would be an ideal 8 man playoff rotation.

In the past I’ve given the warning “don’t fall in love with these players” and Outlaw fans learned the meaning of that, earlier this week. Every Blazer that is drafted is not necessarily going to be a part of the eventual finals team. A core group of Porter-Drexler-Kersey-Williams-Duckworth-Robinson is extremely rare in Blazer history, and even that memorable group only lasted 3-4 years before someone left and then it was broken up to the point where only Uncle Cliffy remained (for awhile)

I know there’s a nostalgic feeling about “teams that stay together for 10 years and win lots of championships together” but that’s not reality. Reality is Portland will have Roy, LMA, Oden, probably Batum and Rudy (if Paul Allen has anything to say about it) for the forseeable future. “All the rest” are up in the air, even though I like Cunningham’s chances to stick around. Putting a supporting cast around the core was the goal of my response, what KP decides to actually do will be revealed in time

But as #25 fans learned this week, don’t “get married” to Martell, etc

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 19, 2010 4:45 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah

better to get 6 good players and play them all the minutes. A tired Lamar Odom is way better than a fresh Dante Cunningham.

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 8:31 AM PST up reply actions  

No

A tired Lamar Odom is not better than a fresh Dante Cunningham.

" It was as if the Suns hatched a fiendish plot to ruin John Wayne's movie career by casting him as a cowboy." - Dave 2/10/2010

by jamon51 on Feb 18, 2010 12:37 PM PST up reply actions  

I see the advantages

but only if you use the two unit system to wear down the other team. If you slow things down on offense and defense, it defeats the purpose. It’s an okay regular season strategy, but one that will only work in the playoffs if the pace and intensity of the game forces the other team to feel the heat. Ironically, pace and intensity are two things we do not bring consistently.

by unemployedreflection on Feb 18, 2010 8:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Exactly

The benefit of the 2 unit system is when you apply the “48 minutes of hell” approach, not when you play Retirement Center Rec League-brand ball.
I honestly think Nate’s transitioning to this style, but is fighting the urge to go Hulk every time there’s a turnover due to a quicker pace or gambling D.

by TheThinWhiteDuke on Feb 18, 2010 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

does pace wear you down?

The Suns are the prototypical “fast-paced” team, and have consistently played with just 2-3 subs, and their starters playing huge minutes. Same with the Warriors.

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 1:10 PM PST up reply actions  

Devin Harris

I think Devin Harris should be our primary target. He is young and a good defender. He’s a OK distributor but can also score when you need him to. And, yes he might be available after things shake out next summer and I think the new Russian owner might like a guy like Rudy.

by ukrainefan on Feb 18, 2010 7:26 AM PST reply actions  

It's funny that Portland "balked" at giving Outlaw up in a deal for Harris.

We were so young and innocent back then. Blake, Jack, and Sergio? Obviously the future.

Batum brings the doom.

by The Running Man on Feb 18, 2010 9:10 AM PST up reply actions  

We allegedly balked

I’m not sure I ever saw something substantiated about that rumor. Seems like one of those things that took on a life of its own.

"One of the bright spots of the young season has been rookie point guard Jonny Flynn, whose name sounds like he should be the lead character in a Broadway Musical. "What are you doing here, Jonny Flynn?" "Why I'm here to court trouble, and woo a girl, and build the most fantastical contraption the world has ever seen!" -- Dave, Game 7 Blazers versus Timberwolves preview

by BlazersOrBust on Feb 18, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Also known as a......

…Bedge Fact

Roybot: "Then he said "My girlfriend is from LA." to which I replied "Well then you need to find a new girlfriend."’

by 92wastheyear on Feb 18, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Jaynes and Vance have their "league sources" (going on 25 years now)

believe them, or don’t

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Henry Abbott thought it was a bad deal. It wasn't such a crazy thought back then. People thought Outlaw was going to be amazing.
What’s more Travis Outlaw, lately, has been something of a marvel. He has been almost perfect at both ends of the floor in crunch time. He has a reasonable contract. He is young. His vastly improved shot shows he works. And he plays one of the few positions on the floor that lets him contribute alongside Portland’s keepers Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Greg Oden.

If you give up a player like that, at this early stage of his career, you’d think it would be for something really special.

Devin Harris is a nice player, don’t get me wrong. But he doesn’t knock my socks off like that.

So that was my first thought. This is just crazy talk.-Truehoop

Batum brings the doom.

by The Running Man on Feb 18, 2010 6:34 PM PST up reply actions  

hard to argue with that

Quick said that KP really likes Harris, and Cuban said that Devin scored in the top percentile on his psych exam, before the draft (similar to Clyde, back in the day)

I was making trade proposals last summer for Harris, and the “conventional thinking” was that he and Roy would not be able to co-exist. But Brandon is learning how to play alongside another “lead guard” this year (Miller) and Roy’s hammy may prevent him from being such a dominant ballhandler in the future (his game could change to more spot up shooting and less penetrating, etc)

We’ll see, the signs point to Devin being a “special fit” in KP’s mindset. If NJ gets Wall there could be a sign and trade offer around draft day, and Rudy and/or Bayless would be the logical bait

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

two units

“I guess I have to face the fact that I’m probably the only guy here who believes in McMillan’s idea of running out two units”

I think it’s a great concept but probably suffers from fatal flaws.

When you have a glut of good players like Blazers did at the beginning of the season I can see the appeal of having what essentially amounts to two starting lineups. But the players in the 2nd unit then wind up with less recognition and less playing time than what they need in order to be satisfied with their role on the team.

And if they are that good they are at the very least going to demand substantial salaries. It’s not financially workable to have 10 high-paid players.

by lsjogren on Feb 18, 2010 8:12 AM PST reply actions  

championship teams

There’s some truth to tom’s comment. I mean, what do the Lakers have, something like 7 rotation players and then the rest of their roster is pure garbage.

by lsjogren on Feb 18, 2010 8:13 AM PST reply actions  

beyond that

the “core” of a championship team is defined by 3-4 players. The others can bring useful skills to the table, but are largely interchangeable. The Spurs have brought in a rotating supporting cast around Duncan, Parker and Ginobili, for example. Bowen was a good player for them, but never thought of as a cornerstone, or an irreplaceable part.

by atomiccafe on Feb 18, 2010 8:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Exactly

As far as needing depth to deal with injury crises like ours, the sad truth is that if a team is hit with multiple rotation players out for the season, they’re not going to win a title that year anyways. It’s great that we have enough guys to be able to maintain a decent record, but once Joel went down for the season (arguably even before that with Oden), our realistic title hopes for the season disappeared. It’d be one thing if they were set to come back, but even then, any team whose top 3 is good enough to win a title is also good enough without one of those guys to make the playoffs, which is all that you really “need” out of the regular season.

LA’s gotten by for extended periods without Gasol, but if he were to be out for the season tomorrow, they’re not winning a title even if they had Dante, Juwan and Pendy instead of their end of the bench scrubs, so how important is depth there? Given that winning a title is ultimately the goal, it makes much more sense to maximize the talent of your top 3-4 guys and then hope they don’t get injured than it does to have a slightly weaker top 4 but better backups for them.

#52

by Royster on Feb 18, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Great post

At the same time, I’m not convinced that Martell will be the odd man out, but it’s certainly a possibility. It would be tough to dump Martell AND Rudy because then you are left without a real three point threat off the bench. I could see Martell being content here long term, especially if he and Batum can play together for stretches (Batum at the 4 with a small lineup or Webster at the 2 with a large lineup). Whereas with Rudy, I don’t foresee a scenario where he’s happy here in the long term.

Take a starting rotation of Oden/LMA/Batum/Roy/Miller (or Miller’s replacement after his contract is up)…

Then your primary bench players are Pryz, Cunningham, Martell, and Bayless. Toss in a waterbug PG, maybe bring over Freeland or Claver eventually, add a few vets (all playing spot minutes), mix well, and it’s all good.

2010-11 dream lineup: Oden/LMA/Batum/Roy/Dre; Okafor/Freeland/Cunningham/Webster/JB/Pendy/Mills.

by The Cactus Leaguer on Feb 18, 2010 8:43 AM PST reply actions  

What to make of these past Blazer rosters?

Porter
Drexler
Kersey
Williams
Duckworth
Ainge
Robinson

or

Staudamire
Smith
Pippin
Wallace
Sabonis
Wells
Grant

Both teams had a wealth of scoring options, including players not even listed here. Both teams came near to winning titles but lost to other great teams. I maintain that those losses were not foregone conclusions and that a certain amount of chance is involved in deciding which if two great teams wins a series.

But the team that I’d really like our current one to emulate is the championship team. Yes, Walton and Lucas were the most vital components of that team, but there was really a lot of talent spread around, and they played a style of unselfish, moving team offense that I really loved to watch. I think we have the personnel to do that now, but probably not the head coach. More’s the pity, as far as I’m concerned.

And don’t get me started about trading Martell. The guy is a keeper. What does that mean for the rest of the lineup? Good question, and I have no answer right now.

#52

by CatMan2 on Feb 18, 2010 8:52 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Good post +1

" It was as if the Suns hatched a fiendish plot to ruin John Wayne's movie career by casting him as a cowboy." - Dave 2/10/2010

by jamon51 on Feb 18, 2010 12:39 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that Jack's motion offense would win, in today's NBA

a few coaches have tried it in the intervening years, and none has had playoff success

It was a beautiful style of ball to watch, but it’s better suited for the WNBA

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Of course it would win

The key is to have good shooters and good passers at every position, which that team had, and which this team could also have.

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 18, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

where are you going to get all those good shooter and good passers?

From Europe? Toronto has cornered the market on them

The NBA has become a league of freak athletes. The skills required to play Jack’s system are not being taught at the lower levels, and even if they are most of the players who have mastered those skills are not athletic-enough to defend the freak athletes on the other end of the floor

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 18, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Let's see

Brandon — check.
LMA — good shooter, passing could improve.
Nic — check.
Rudy — check.
Greg — good passer out of the low post.
Jerryd — improving, could be there.
Martell — good shooter, passing could improve.

Looks like we’ve got a decent core of that kind of players already.

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 19, 2010 1:09 AM PST up reply actions  

Nate's not a Ramsay disciple

and their offensive systems are apples/oranges

My point is, the pass and cut style that Jack ran is passe in the NBA. Could it be revived in the future? Anything’s possible. But the way to win now is via PnR and ISO…like it or not

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 19, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

You are right about Nate

but wrong that pass and cut is not “the way to win now”. PnR & ISO are one way to win now, the popular way to win, though Utah is using an awful lot of pass and cut to great effect right now.

But there is absolutely no reason that a team couldn’t use pass and cut to win today. The only reason it hasn’t been done with success is because no one who has had the right personnel has tried it. There is nothing magical about “today” that suddenly turns an effective offensive scheme into an ineffective one.

There is one factor that works against it. In Ramsay’s day, zones weren’t allowed, and his offense sliced up a man to man defense. So you’d have to modify slightly to take advantage of the 3 point line to blast people out of a zone — but no zone with a defensive 3 second rule in place could really stop that offense inside, either.

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 19, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

if Jerry ever wins a title, or two

then the pass and cut might become en vogue again, but I doubt it

like I said, it’s a better system for the WNBA. Or in Europe. In the NBA it’s a relic and when Sloan retires it will go the way of the two-handed set shot

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Feb 19, 2010 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

You assert that

but give no reason. Why is it better for the WNBA or in Europe? Because NBA players can’t pass well enough?

This makes no sense that I can see. Just because “no one is doing it” doesn’t mean it won’t work. IMO, it is simply because A) coaches won’t teach it and B) a lot of players like the ISOs because it highlights their personal ability.

But if you have players who just care about winning, team offense is going to be more effective in the long run. Boston shredded us with it in the first half.

Give Blake the MLE in 2010!
Farewell to #2 and #25, good luck to you!
#7 #10 #52 -- #5 & #88 are back!

by jscot on Feb 20, 2010 6:34 AM PST up reply actions  

I'll agree on the part about the skills not being taught ....

…. which is why Nate is focusing on them with this team. It is also the reason we as fans should show a little patience. Something like this doesn’t happen over night.

I suspect that a primary reason we so often see almost every Blazer holding the ball or dribbling too long is their hesitating to make sure they are making the good pass or taking the best shot. I think Nate and his staff have done a good job of drilling that into them. Now they just have to have it become second nature. Once it does, the hesitation will dissappear and we will see much crisper execution.

And if you listen to what Nate is saying to his guys during the game and what gets reported about his comments in practice and the lockerroom, you should get a strong impression that he’s fairly confident his guys understand the basics and that he’s now trying to get them to have confidence in themselves. Which is why we regularly hear him telling them to push the pace and to not hesitate when they have an open shot. We truly have a wonderful combination here in Portland. A group of very talented young players and a coach who believes in and knows how to teach those “old school” concepts that lead to winning.

Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.

by timg56 on Feb 19, 2010 8:10 AM PST up reply actions  

D Harris

He may be available if NJ drafts Wall. The question is how good is he really?? He was just a body at Dallas (still young) then had some good number with NJ, now he is down a bit, injured some of the year, on a terrible team. CP3 won’t be base year anymore after 7-1, but at 13 mm, we would have to send Pryz, Martell, Rudy, etc., to match. For them to take Pryz, we would probably have to find a 3rd team willing to take Okafor.
My hope is we re-sign Camby, and trade the expiring Pryz/Miller next year at this time for a good player. Also, I disagree that Pendergraph will be the 3rd Center next year. At the very least, I would think Freeland would be bought out and brought over. My guess is if we make a trade, someone will want Dante, who will have a low contract to be a throw in. Is it possible to be a throw in and a deal breaker? No doubt a trade with a crappy team who has 1 good player will want some low priced value and Dante can be the next Carl Landry off the bench.

by shallwemaui on Feb 18, 2010 9:39 AM PST reply actions  

Webster or fernadez

we need to keep one for a three point threat. I know that Batum is better and so is Roy that said they are slotted for starting line up. I think we will end up keeping one of they to play in the second unit, and come off the bench with Bayless. unless Cunningham has the range he hasn’t show.

"I like whatever metric makes a Blazer look better." jonestr

Reporter: Four assists tonight too, Travis. You're starting to shed that idea that you're just a shooter. You're starting to pass the ball more too...
Travis: (Deadpans) Aw, I just got tired..

by farmboy on Feb 18, 2010 10:11 AM PST reply actions  

long term

“Watching Cunningham in person last night I was very impressed, I think he has the potential to be a rotation player.”

I think he’s already earned his way into the rotation.

by lsjogren on Feb 18, 2010 10:12 AM PST reply actions  

yep

He helped make Outlaw expendable, that’s for sure. Dante is the tweener SF/PF off the bench that gives the team what they need, whereas Travis has the mad offensive skills but not enough rebounding or D.

2010-11 dream lineup: Oden/LMA/Batum/Roy/Dre; Okafor/Freeland/Cunningham/Webster/JB/Pendy/Mills.

by The Cactus Leaguer on Feb 18, 2010 10:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Camby or Pryzbilla?

I agree with shallwemaui above. If we can lure Camby back, trade Pryzbilla. I like Joel, but he plays and moves as if he’s 10 years older than he actually is. And that’s before this injury. Camby seems more spry to me than Joel, even at 5 years his senior.

Portland should trade Joel, give the Oden experiment one more year, use Camby as Greg’s backup and select the best available center — if there aren’t better players, that is — in the draft this June. Let the rookie be the third center in the rotation, he won’t worry about minutes.

by CraigDC on Feb 18, 2010 10:44 AM PST reply actions  

Freeland is also a possibility.

Not sure if Joel is a trade asset the way his contract is structured, but if he is, then he could be as valuable (or more valuable) than Marty or Rudy in a deal for our PG of the future.

2010-11 dream lineup: Oden/LMA/Batum/Roy/Dre; Okafor/Freeland/Cunningham/Webster/JB/Pendy/Mills.

by The Cactus Leaguer on Feb 18, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions  

This has been my big question.

Where both Joel and Camby are good on defense, Joel is not the scoring threat that Camby is; one of the quotes that I read was that Camby was hoping to be more then a rent a center for one year for us.

We don’t know how Joel’s or Greg’s injury will affect their playing. We know that Joel was going to require more money next year. Therefore if we package the extra money and Joel’s salary we could offer Camby the same deal. I have loyalty to Joel, but I did for Travis and Steve also. Just because Steve and Travis weren’t as tough as Joel doesn’t make it different. It is a business.

If anybody would have asked, I would have said we couldn’t land a Camby for what we offered, but now that we got him, and Joel and Greg are questionable health and endurance wise, I would think we should put in an effort to keep him. I also think Camby would be a better mentor for Greg because he plays better offense then Joel, but still puts the emphasis on playing tough defense.

 Of course I would like to keep all three, but I don’t think either Joel or Camby would settle for 3rd string center. Camby could back up Greg and LMA so my choice is Camby

hg

s

by BBK on Feb 19, 2010 5:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Tough choice

Joel is younger and play better 1 on 1 D. Marcus is more versatile and has veteran exp. and leadership like Juwan.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Feb 19, 2010 5:33 AM PST up reply actions  

The next (possibly couple) trimming of the roster(s) will hurt basically...

It’s going to be a Rudy, Bayless, Pryz, Martell, Pendy, Dante, Dre…maybe all of them over the next year or 2.

The core, if you will, would appear to be: Roy; LMA; Batum; Oden. The shuffle for Pritchard is obviously to do some magic to get the right fit of the rest of the puzzle pieces. An extremely tough job that most likely will claim the remainder of his hair.

I’d like to see Dante stay when the dust settles, but in reality everyone is up for grabs (with the exception of those 4).

A huge crossing of the fingers with Oden is the sub text of course.

by Knobby on Feb 18, 2010 10:52 AM PST reply actions  

What do you think of this?

For a while, Camby can play Center and PF. Dante can play SF and PF, I think LMA could play SF as well as PF. We know that BRoy can play the PG, SG and SF, JBay can play the one Pg and SG, Rudy can play PG, SG, and SF. Martell can play SG and SF. That could leave Pryz, Pendy, and Dre (because of age) out. In two years also Camby would be questionable.

You are right though all but the your four is exchangeable parts, but if we trade those then we will just get more that wants playing time. Therefore what is the point?

by BBK on Feb 19, 2010 5:26 AM PST up reply actions  

I think Rudy and Bayless can both stay

But the qualifier is that each of them needs to develop versatility.

To [heck] with the stagnant 1-2-3-4-5 roles. Roy, Batum, Rudy, Miller, Bayless – any of those guy should be able to snag a rebound or take an outlet pass and bring it up and get the offense going. No hesitation from any of them.

[As an aside, I loved Bill Simmons’ line this week that Tyreke Evans is a PG only if you define PG as the guy who brings the ball across midcourt.]

Once the ball is advanced – who the hell cares by whom – the offense needs to be versatile, too. These guys should be basically interchangeable parts, (yes I love the triangle offense) with Dave’s smart caveat that Roy is the team leader and there’s a clear pecking order.

The other really big thing is DEFENSE. If all these guys – yes that includes BRoy – develop into the kind of defenders that scare opponents, we’re golden. I don’t buy that Rudy has to be hidden on D his whole career. He’s athletic, hard working and smart enough to become a great defender. If Ron Harper can become a great defender after losing his knees, then Rudy sure as hell can, too. However Bayless might just be too tiny with his tiny little arms to really be an impact defender. Hopefully he can make up for his shortcomings physically with tenacity and quickness which are two of his defining qualities.

by sagcat on Feb 18, 2010 2:27 PM PST reply actions  

Bill Walton's team

Rudy plays pretty good D in my book already, he plays the passing lanes great, gets steals, and has fast hands. He doesn’t always stay in front of his man, but he can antagonise them into hard fouling him LOL.

JBay is short, but is fast enough to stay in front of his man and tough enough to take the abuse of a hard pick. I don’t know about BRoy, sometimes he is a roving defender being available to help out, sometimes he is not a defender at all, some times he is a lock down defender.

hg

by BBK on Feb 19, 2010 5:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Did I miss Patty Mills as a viable point option ?

I really hope the guy gets decent chance to play. We could well use him if he can deliver, and until we try, I don’t think anybody knows. Look what happened when Batum got a chance – better than expected. You’ve got to let him make a few mistakes, he probably is not going to be worse than a Bayless “off” game. Give the kid the ball, please!
Free Patty !

Re-sign Travis Outlaw !

by Berkeley on Feb 18, 2010 4:26 PM PST reply actions  

Mills

“My point? When you adjust for pace and minutes, Brooks’ stats aren’t that impressive.”

Cool.

That makes my claim that Mills could be the next Brooks more credible.

by lsjogren on Feb 18, 2010 5:06 PM PST reply actions  

Mills

With Camby here now, we can pursue my “worst case injury strategy” which is to groom Mills to be the Blazers new starting center.

Sounds like Mills got his first lesson at practice today.

by lsjogren on Feb 18, 2010 5:09 PM PST reply actions  

Here's the 8 man rotation I'd like to see after this season

Starters:
Rudy (30 min)
Roy (36 min)
Batum (30 min)
Aldridge (37 min)
Oden (25 min)

6th man: Bayless (30 min)
7th man: Webster (25 min)
8th man: Cunningham (25 min)

Roy dominates the ball when he’s in, so we don’t need an Andre Miller type next to him (aka Mr. Disgusting Jump Shot). I think Rudy would flourish next to Roy if he was given consistent minutes, and he could spread the floor giving Roy room to drive.

As far as people worried about the combination of Roy and Rudy getting eaten up on defense by opposing guards, don’t forget that Batum can shut down most guards just as he can many forwards as well, thus, we could possibly slide Roy over to guarding the 3 while Batum takes an opposing guard. Also, if we can ever get a healthy Oden in the middle, he could intimidate a lot of potential drives to the basket as he began to do this season. Thus, lockdown perimeter defenders wouldn’t be as necessary.

Then, I think that Bayless is the perfect sixth man. The first guy off the bench who could aggressively attack opposing defenses while either Roy or Rudy take a rest. I really think he would excel in this role (all he needs to do is continue expanding his shooting range this off-season).

Also, if you pair Bayless with guys like Webster and Cunningham in the second unit, I see those guys being able to push the tempo and get easy baskets. I also think those three could bring a little more defensive intensity than some of the guys in the first unit as well.

Anyway, there’s my 2 cents

by adaoh on Feb 18, 2010 10:39 PM PST reply actions  

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