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A Hindsight Prophecy...Earned vs. Will Earn..



Okay, please bare with me. Let me very BODLY state that I HATE hindsight commentary. I hate the inevitable rash or emergence of "I told you so", "I always knew" or "I would of done it differently" that accompanies situations as their definition becomes a known adversity.

Let me also state and make clear that is NOT what I want to do, and that my admission is thus...At the time as a fan, and as a fan that was aware of Brandon Roys College knee problems, Pro knee problems, heel condition, I wanted Brandon Roy resigned. At the time, I was among the SUPER majority that were clamoring not for caution or thrifty long term economics in the resigning of Brandon Roy, but I was among those that said, "He's our Superstar. Sign Him.". I believed at the time that as a R.O.Y. and multiple time All-Star, if we did not sign Roy to a max contract, he would of been given that contract by another team anxious for a chance to obtain a very rare commodity in the N.B.A., ...a top star player. I thought we had very little choice, and that it was the correct thing to do. But that doesn't mean recent statements by Larry Miller in relationship to The Blazers negotiations don't bother me and here is why.

Star-divide

In the recent Q and A in the Oregonian, when Larry Miller was asked " How much did you know about the condition of Brandon Roy's knees when he signed his contract extension? "-The Oregonian

Larry Millers answer was: " When he was drafted, we knew there were problems with his knees. When we talked about his extension last summer, it did come into play and into the discussions. But at the end of the day, he was the face of turning this organization and franchise around. He was Rookie of the Year, three-time All Star - it just made all the sense in the world to give him the deal we gave him. There was some consideration given to (his knees)  - but as we looked at it and talked - we decided he has earned this. He has earned this max contract regardless of what problems might come along."-Larry Miller

So what's my beef you might ask? Isn't Larry Miller almost exactly echoing my thoughts before the jump? Well "almost" but not exactly....

What bothers me in his response is specifically this statement: " As we looked at it and talked-we decided he has EARNED this. He has EARNED this max contract regardless of what problems might come along." -Larry Miller

IMO that is exactly the wrong attitude to have when evaluating a player for his NEXT contract. In my opinion, you should treat each negotiation restricted or free agent almost like it is a brand new player, and brand new deal-which it is...

You don't offer a Max Contract extending 5 years into your teams future to a player, (Even Brandon Roy) based on you believe he "EARNED" it...you look at the next contract as what is he likely to "EARN"...

Because, and I love Brandon Roy...BUT before he signed that contract with The Blazers...the truth is all he had "EARNED" was the right to negotiate for a  contract as large as the one he did finally receive. His play had justified the right for him to ask for the amount he ultimately received...but before he received it? He hadn't yet EARNED it.

So now in hindsight, we are left with very real fears that Brandon Roy may never be able to EARN the contract that he signed...or more precisely perform at a level that commonly Max Contract players are expected to perform.

I don't blame Brandon...for either his condition today, or his obtainment of a Max Contract Yesterday. I don't even Blame The Blazers for taking the risk with Brandon Roy...and I still believe...I still believe that the ultimate jury is still very much out as to how much Brandon will be able to contribute.

But Larry Miller and The Blazers were wrong....if they gave Brandon Roy that next contract based  primarily and solely on his performance BEFORE....the signing of the new contract. Performance before, should only be used by The Player, The Players Agent and The Team to determine what "likely" market value The Player would be able to obtain....but not looked at by the Franchise as his past performance has already "Earned" him this next contract. Because that is a subtle but huge difference between He Has Earned...thus we give....or we think He Will Earn...thus we give....

HIndsight Prophecy? Had The Blazers announced or failed to sign Brandon Roy, and he had gone to another team? I would howled like a kicked dog. I would of called Larry Miller and The Blazers a poorly run franchise. Even if Larry Miller would of announced at the time that negotiations failed because of longterm concerns about Brandons Knees vs. What Brandon wanted as a player....I wouldn't of bought it.

But that is because I'm a fan. IMO Larry Miller and whomever is negotiating with Brandon or whatever player, cannot afford to be a fan during negotiations. They have to be willing to look at the whole picture. Even if that means being less of a fan, and coming to the conclusion that it's highly unlikely that The Player will be able to perform at a level that makes his being paid Max amount a wise decision.

Do I blame The Blazers or Larry Miller  for coming to the conclusion they ultimately came to? No as I already said, I don't blame them. It would of been a devestating PR nightmare...almost unrepairable to let Brandon go.

So even though I do not criticize the ultimate end...I do reserve the right to criticize the apparent approach that brought us to that end.  


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I'm sure economists have played with this...

Basically, the teams exploit star players under rookie contracts; the contractually-established system prevents stars from earning their fair market value. To some extent, lucrative second contracts are artificially inflated by the restriction of the number of free agents owing to the same 4-year-rookie-scale system.

One might argue that EVERY player able to sign a second contract after the rookie contract is inherently “rewarded” for past performance — that they have, effectively “earned this.”

That said, I wouldn’t place too much credence in the words coming out of Larry Miller’s mouth. He’s the shmoozing public face of the franchise, trying to paint a happy face on everything rather than attempting to be analytically precise.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Nov 20, 2010 11:34 AM PST reply actions   3 recs

Besides..

……it is impossible to give a player the exact contract he will earn in the future. Nobody is able to see the exact future

Harry Bosch: "Everybody counts....or nobody counts."

by 92wastheyear on Nov 20, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions  

But isn't it possible...

…to look at X-rays and MRI’s and determine that there is a degree of risk that a players performance will deteriate rapidly? And while nobody can see the future, I agree, I still think you approach NEGOTIATIONS trying to evaluate what the likely future of a player will be, not with a fans eye to what the player has accomplished in the past.

  Listen, had Miller simply said, “We were aware of Brandons Knee condition, but we felt investing into Brandon Roy was worth the risk.” Then I’m fine with that.

  It’s only very precisely his saying this risk was taken because they felt he had “earned” it…that I have issue with….

  I absolutely love Brandon Roy as a player…but if every MRI and every specialist in the world was coming to you and saying….This guy will be lucky to be playing in 2 years…and you ignored this information because…well he looked real good the previous 3 years….then you have made a “Clap if You Believe In Fairies” mistake.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 20, 2010 12:13 PM PST up reply actions  

The Dejuan Blair approach

Harry Bosch: "Everybody counts....or nobody counts."

by 92wastheyear on Nov 20, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions  

why would any team give a player a max contract based primarily on his potential?

I doubt there has been one max contract ever signed by an NBA player who hadn’t “earned it” in the past, to some degree (except for perhaps Darius, but Roy is no Miles)

the OP should have just stuck with his first 2 paragraphs, the rest is over-analysis of a no-brainer decision

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 20, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

But I disagree with this...

   I don’t agree that teams exploit “star” players under rookie contracts. Rookie contracts simply are…what they are…and first round players make good money. Hypothetically, let’s say Brandon never had the career he has had….that his knee had immediately hampered him right near the start…would anyone say The Blazers exploited him, or would it simply be a story of we took a risk and lost?

   Did The Blazers exploit Oden…or given his struggles has he been blessed being able to make the money he has been able to make as a #1, #1 pick?

  Even if you want to believe what you are saying precisely…I believe the arguement that EVERY player able to sign a second contract after his rookie contract is inherently rewarded for past performance-that they have effectively “earned this” is stopping short. True…as I said, Brandon EARNED the right to negotiate for the type of contract he ultimately received….but that reality is he hadn’t EARNED anything else…and The Blazers owed it to themselves to carefully weigh the risk vs. reward from the P.O.V. of what they felt he would be able to contribute going forward…not looking back. IMO all contracts should be offered from the P.O.V. of is this player going to of this potential value to the team going forward….you never reward in retrospect….

Which sounds somewhat cold….but it works both ways. I do not hear or see anyone suggesting Oden return money to The Blazers OR give The Blazers extra years for the lost seasons he never played. Infact, Oden will use this all to his advantage.

So if The Blazers entered negotiations with Brandon with any thought as to what has he “earned” past tense…as opposed to focusing primarily on what is it likely he will earn? Then I have to say it was a mistake.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 20, 2010 12:02 PM PST reply actions  

Whether the rookie money is "good" or not is irrelevant...

The system constrains the amount of money an NBA player can receive through his first 5 years if he’s a first round draft pick. The difference between what a player was paid and what he woulda-coulda-shoulda been paid if allowed to shop his services and to have the rate set by supply and demand, is a form of institutionalized theft. The money that SHOULD have been in Brandon Roy’s pocket — let’s say a Rookie of a Year in year 2 at SG is actually worth $10M instead of $3M or whatever and an All Star in years 3 and 4 SHOULD have been able to make $15M per year and instead had to settle for $4.5M per year or something…

In short, the system essentially robbed Brandon Roy of something pretty close to $30M over the four rookie years, unpaid salary which went into billionaire Paul Allen’s pockets so that he could pay it to Darius Miles…

Roy, more than any other player in the league, maybe, truly did “earn it” for the second contract.

The fact that he did manage to make millions and millions of dollars under the system is no matter; the important fact, from his perspective and that of the team, is that he SHOULD have made something close to three times more…

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Nov 20, 2010 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Sorry...

…I don’t buy this at all. The “system” did not rob Brandon Roy of anything.

I admit that past peformance is used as a HUGE factor in determing the potential value of a player going forward….but that past peformance whether this is a rookie contract, 2nd contract or someones likely last contract….is not reason to retrospectively “pay” someone.

Because let’s be honest. Lets pretend for arguements sake that at the end of the season before the summer that Brandon negotiated his latest contract, Brandon had almost the exact same career…but on the final game of the season had shattered his leg…and was never going to play again…NOBODY would be in here saying "because the “system” robbed him, he deserves to be paid….we’d all realize that The Blazers as a franchise couldn’t afford to pay a player based on his past performance….knowing for certain there wouldn’t be future level of performance.

  Well yes, this is a fictional scenario, but the only real difference is between evaluatable probability and certainty.

  So no, I personally don’t believe the rookie pay scale system robs players of anything, even if I admit that the most talented of these rookies are playing for huge increases in their next contract or extension.

  It’s still IMO a philosophy mistake to offer a contract based primarily on past performance if you have access to knowledge that would let you concievably know that past performance was not likely going into the future.

  I think the “nice” factor gets mixed into this…and the truth is Larry Miller if he is negotiating cannot afford to be nice…it’s a business. You pay Brandon Roy 85 Million for 5 years and his Knees turn to chalk? Well you better write the checks in ink…..and you better be able to say….we took the risk and we thought it was a decent risk to take..NOT we thought he had earned it…..because he hadn’t earned it, until you slid the contract over and he signed it.

  I absolutely LOVE Brandon Roy as a player. So please let me restate, I would of signed him. Unless I had every doctor and specialist I had look at Brandons Knees all coming back to me whistling taps….then I probably would of offered the contract.

  But also keep in mind it works both ways…this “nice” thing. Because The Blazers are kind of over a barrel with the options and decisions they will face with Oden. If Oden does become a free agent and get a Huge Offer…do you think he is going to be nice or offer the Blazers a retroactive rebate on their offer because he missed so much of his rookie contract? Not going to happen…because Oden will want the opportunity and money…going forward…based on what he can hopefully convince people is his potential in the future NOT his results in the past….Oden is in many ways the converse situation to Brandon.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 20, 2010 6:52 PM PST up reply actions  

How do you evaluate someone's value if not on past accomplishments?

Imagine you’ve worked for a company for four years, you’ve been instrumental in an astronomical rise in the value of that company and the public perception. You’ve reached nearly every bench mark and accolade available. When it comes time to renegotiate your contract extension, all of that gets thrown out and you’re treated like a new hire with no history? Doesn’t that strike you as a little ridiculous?

by zaruga on Nov 20, 2010 1:07 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

Of course past performance is a factor here

but I think the point is that you weigh his past performance heavily with an eye toward the future and Blazers management should have (and I’m sure they did) ask themselves based on what we knew about Brandon and his knees does the potential gain outweigh the risk?

The gain being a proven All-Star who makes his team better, a captain on the court and in the locker room, the risk is having the sun set on a too short career and Roy slipping into mediocrity.

His story is not yet finished being written and ol’ #7 may yet come back strong. I’m holding on to that hope.

"I don’t think it’s lost. I don’t think it’s lost. It’s adversity and something that we have to deal with. We wish it wasn’t like this, but it is."

-Brandon Roy 11/18/2010 as told to CBSSports.com blog

by The_Natural on Nov 20, 2010 1:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Sure...

it’s pretty basic that you are almost forced to evaluate past performance in forming an opinion on future potential….I’m NOT saying that shouldn’t happen.

But imagine that I worked for a company for 4 years and been astronomical in the rise and value of that company….through use of my skills and intellect. But when it comes time to negotiate my next contract it is revealed that I have a condition that is likely to rob me of those same skills….would I expect compassion or mercy from the corporation? Would I say, I’m likely to not be able to write a paper, proposal or speech in the next 4 years, but I’d like you to retrospectively pay me again for what I have already done…not what it’s expected I will do….or be able to do…????

  I think as fans there is a difference between what we want…and what as management The Blazers are burdened with doing….which might sometimes come down to being willing to NOT be a fan…and do what the fans do NOT want done at the moment….and I don’t get the feeling The Blazers operate in this manner.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 20, 2010 1:31 PM PST up reply actions  

imagine that I worked for a company for 4 years and been astronomical in the rise and value of that company….through use of my skills and intellect. But when it comes time to negotiate my next contract it is revealed that I have a condition that is likely to rob me of those same skills….would I expect compassion or mercy from the corporation? Would I say, I’m likely to not be able to write a paper, proposal or speech in the next 4 years, but I’d like you to retrospectively pay me again for what I have already done

Are you a CEO in this scenario?

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 20, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I admitted...

…that I felt the reality at the time was that Brandon Roy would of probably been able to garner that contract from other teams….but that’s kind of where the N.B.A. player vs. Real World analogy breaks down…..

  Read my original post, I even admit I wanted Brandon signed…and don’t fault The Blazers for siging him…

   But you can still evaluate the approach to the decision, the philosophy behind it. And I don’t think the fact that 29 other teams may of been just as willing to make the same mistake you made…is reason enough to justify making the mistake. Even if that is a very real reality.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 20, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Even if one NBA team made that "mistake" and signed Brandon to the max last summer

it still would have been a PR nightmare for Portland. Would we “feel better” now if Roy had hurt his knee and he was the property of another team? Perhaps, but since Portland was going over the cap with LMA’s salary (and Camby’s subsequent extension) anyway, there wouldn’t have been much of an upside for the Blazers to let Roy walk for fear of his future injuries.

The only 20/20 hindsight scenario that really should make a Blazer fan pause is: what if Portland had drafted Durant and traded Roy for a big man, back in 2007? (Don’t you just love hypothetical “what if” questions?) No wonder KP was fired, he failed to consult his crystal ball and then sell this idea hard to Paul Allen, back in June 2007

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 20, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

"if roy had hurt his knee"

…that wording is crux to forming an opinion. Is this a case of Roy Hurting his Knee? Or was Roys condition already something in place, that should of been definable as a potential problem? If you look at today as a unavoidable and predictable outcome? Then The Blazers made a mistake….

  If you look at today, as a separate random event…another injury and not a permenantly declining chronic condition that could of been foreseen? Then perhaps you believe The Blazers made the right decision.

  A follow up question nobody dared ask….was if Miller had received opinion from any medical source advising NOT to sign Brandon or advising that his knees were high risk. He was able to skate by only saying “We looked at it and talked”…well I’d be very curious as to whom he talked and what those conversations actually were…

  My guess? I’ll never be told or know.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 20, 2010 3:29 PM PST reply actions  

it was shorthand

my intent was to say that Brandon’s knee became too sore to continue playing in NBA games for an indefinite period of time

The MRIs that were taken last came back negative: Roy’s knees are now no more injured than they have been since his meniscus surgery, last April. (Assuming we’re being told the complete truth—which I have no expectation or need to know)

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 20, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Thanks...

 (Assuming we’re being told the complete truth—which I have no expectation or need to know)

  Thank you Seargent Shultz… “I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!” …excuse me if I’d rather know the whole truth..even if I don’t expect it.

   Plus if you’ll notice, The Blazers aren’t exactly saying his knees are no worse…they’re just saying they are defining the situation as a chronic condition and not an acute.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 20, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions  

more shorthand

I didn’t expect to have to explain the term “need to know”

As fans, our “security clearance” isn’t high enough to know the real condition of Roy’s knees. We’ll receive the intel that the front office sends via the media, and speculate (or not) about the rest.

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Nov 20, 2010 7:02 PM PST up reply actions  

No...

…no I understood what you meant by “need to know” I just disagree with your evident belief that as far as the health and reality of players fans should be handled with a “security clearance”. I’d rather be told upfront the best possible presentation of the situation and not think it’s being filtered through an intel.

  I believe the fans have the right to know the reality surrounding Brandon Roys knees….our “security clearance” should be high enough.

  But I realize that The Blazers aren’t always forthcoming…but that doesn’t mean it’s okay with me…or that I’ll just say I don’t need to know…

  Ultimately I didn’t “need” to know the truth about KP or why his situation was handled the way it was handled…but for me? I’ll keep asking even if I don’t expect the answers…I don’t accept the idea that my security clearance isn’t high enough to know the truth or reality.

"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"

by Krang on Nov 21, 2010 12:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Your thoughts are sour grapes..

What’s done is done. I don’t know about you but I’m moving on. I’ll continue to be a season ticket holder and support my team. I’ve done it since 1970. I remember watching Geoff Petrie and his picture perfect jump shot, him co-winning rookie of the year. The excitement of drafting Sidney Wicks, and Bill Walton. The list of good memories goes on and on. Yes, we’ve had bad times in the past and now in the present. However, it’s funny that I only remember the good things over those 40 years. Plus, what else will get you out of the house on a cold, rainy. Portland day?

Best of all, there’s alway’s next season!

by toolman on Nov 20, 2010 4:58 PM PST reply actions  

Blazers had little choice. The fans were coming after the Blazers management with torches and pitchforks to sign the face of the franchise and give him whatever he asks for.

by LanceS on Nov 21, 2010 11:45 AM PST reply actions  

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