Poll: When Greg Oden Returns, Should He Be Placed On A Strict Minutes Limit?
by Ben Golliver on Oct 8, 2010 9:17 AM PDT
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PrintBack in September, Jonathan Feigen of the Houston Chronicle wrote that the Houston Rockets and their medical advisors have developed a plan to strictly limit playing time for center Yao Ming, who is coming back to the court after missing last season with a foot injury.
Yao will play no more than 24 minutes per game, Rockets vice president and athletic trainer Keith Jones said. There will be no exceptions. If Yao has played his 24 minutes and the Rockets have the ball and eight seconds on the clock to make up a one-point deficit, Yao will not play those eight seconds.
Yao's playing time will not average 24 minutes; it will end there. If he plays 22 minutes in one game, he will not play 26 the next. For that matter, if he plays two minutes one game, he will not play 26 the next. When Yao reaches his 24 minutes, he will be through for that game.
When Yao plays one night, he will skip much of the practice the next day, with the Rockets so determined to limit the demands on Yao that Jones and associate athletic trainer Jason Biles have already outlined Yao's workout schedule from the start of camp Sept. 25 through the last game of the regular season.
Earlier this week, Mike Bresnahan of the Los Angeles Times wrote that Lakers coach Phil Jackson was considering similar plans for center Andrew Bynum, who recently underwent knee surgery.
Bynum has experienced knee problems the last three years, each injury different but nonetheless representing a pattern that has forced Jackson to contemplate the big picture.
..
"We're hopeful that this is the time he's able to start playing consistently through a season," Jackson said. "If not, we're going to have to look at Andrew as a short-minute guy, somebody like Yao Ming who's going to be limited in the amount of minutes he plays."
"If his knee doesn't hold up after having this process, then we'll have to think about what kind of minutes he can play in a career," Jackson said. "This would be a [fourth] consecutive year that things didn't go well. We're concerned. That's why we're giving this extra time, or the doctors asked for extra time for this to heal, so when this heals, his career can go forward instead of having these stops in the middle of the season."
This brings us, of course, to Portland Trail Blazers center Greg Oden, who has suffered a pair of season-ending knee injuries. While the Blazers have not committed to a clear time table for his return, much less a plan for his minutes, members of management have said their desire is to have Oden ready to go for the playoffs.
Would a strict minutes limit help Oden get there, both physically and mentally?
The benefits would be less regular season wear and tear, reduced chance of re-injury, additional recovery time and a sense of knowing exactly what would be expected from you on any given night. The drawbacks would be less Oden and everything that goes with that: more miles for veteran Marcus Camby, more lineup juggling, potentially worse playoff seeding and, perhaps, even the possibility of losing home court advantage in a tight Western Conference race.
It's worth noting the most minutes per game Oden has averaged as a pro was 23.9 last season, but his career high for minutes played was 42 back in 2008-2009, and he played 24+ minutes 22 times that season. Last year he played 24+ minutes in more than half of the games he appeared in.
If you were Portland GM Rich Cho, would you pursue a strict limit on Greg Oden's minutes during the regular season once he returns to the court? Vote below and explain your reasoning in the comments.
-- Ben Golliver | benjamin.golliver@gmail.com | Twitter
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I would put Oden on a strict limit only if
his body dictates it. If he’s capable of playing 30+ then he should play more. The blazers need him on the floor and Greg needs minutes to show what he can do. I think it would be wise to limit him in the beginning, but he needs to be able to play as much as Nate needs him to play at the end of the season.
Exactly.
If he can’t kick the tendinitis, I think they’re going to have to put a cap on his minutes. That’s the type of injury he can aggravate with stress (I think).
On the other hand, if this is just about broken bones and things, I see no reason to cap him. If he’s healthy, let him play. He hasn’t suffered any chronic injuries so far. Yao is being limited because his foot injury is, as I understand it, the kind of thing that will be aggravated by the simple act of playing. If Yao plays too much he’s very likely to suffer further injury. Greg’s injuries have been different. They’re all the types that are supposed to be a non-issue once healed.
And if you think Greg is just brittle, then he’s done regardless. If that’s the case, we should play him as much as possible and hope to swing a lucky trade while his value is high before the next accident.
"...it was like he brought his own personal cross-wind to the arena." - Dave
I think that we've established that his body cannot handle an 82 game schedule.
30 min per game… 24 min per game…. I’d be cool with shelfing him for 3/4th the season and only using him for the streach and playoffs.
The Faith don't panic, the Faith freaks out, burns out small farms and villages in the name of the Faith.
actually, it hasn't been established that his body cannot handle an 82 game schedule
we have a mountain of evidence indicating that big men can sustain injuries early in their career for multiple years – but that has no bearing on minutes or games played later.
Further, Greg has not exhibited chronic symptoms other than the very recent patellar tendinitis – and chronic symptoms are the only indicator that Greg cannot handle a full season or regular minutes.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
when has he been able to sustain a full 82 games...
you’d bet that he’d have a 82 game season vs not in his career, say to the sum of $10,000+?
didn’t think so.
Established thus far.. I’d love to be proven wrong… but not happening.
The Faith don't panic, the Faith freaks out, burns out small farms and villages in the name of the Faith.
I don't know if that's been "established"
It’s been demonstrated that he hasn’t been able to play a full or near-full season without injury, but not established as the way it’s always going to be.
That said, I’d be fine with 1/4 of the season and the playoff run to the championship too, if that was likely. I’ll check with God and get back to you with His plans.
"I come to you now, at the turn of the tide." -- Brandon "Gandalf" Roy, April 24th, 2010
It ain't "established"
GO isn’t suffering overuse injuries like Yao Ming. Understandably, because he’s far, far lighter than Yao.
Having said that, I’d put a strict limit on GO’s minutes early on. If he’s pain-free by the all-star break, say, I’d remove the cap.
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
Good to see that what I came to say was said with the first comment
We should play Oden as health and stamina dictates not out of fear that too many minutes will cause an injury.
Can I get an Armon?
I'm not an expert but my opinion stated on Blazersedge should be regarded as such
I don’t think a minute limit is going to prevent some guy from landing on Oden or Oden getting hurt diving for a ball. I say play him the max minutes the doctors and trainers say he can play. That is, if he’s healthy enough to play those minutes.
I used to go by tominhawaii. My real name is still Tom.
by LukeBabbittFTW on Oct 8, 2010 9:26 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
It could kind of prevent it.
Just in that the fewer minutes he plays, the less opportunities he has for injury.
Disclaimer: everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazersedge.
I agree.
Most of the issues so far have been freak injuries. You can’t stop those by limiting minutes … you just have to hope that he’s luckier than before.
Yes, at least at first
We have to remember that he only has 82 games under his belt, so he is going to make mistakes. I also believe that Przybilla will be coming back at approximately the same time, or shortly after Oden, so I don’t think limiting his time will put such a strain on the roster or on Camby.
Now, once the playoffs start, minute limits have to change. I don’t like the Rockets hard and fast rule as a permanent rule.
A limit won’t prevent a freak accident, like some guy rolling over on his ankle, or some contact-based injury. But it can limit the likelihood of injuries caused by wear and tear or fatigue.
I would rather trade him for someone who can chew gum without breaking a knee.
If the Blazers limit Greg’s minutes a la Yao, would he agree to re-sign for less money?
Would the time limit eliminate or at least greatly reduce the likelihood of injury for a guy who hurts himself getting off the sofa?
Would the time limit limit Greg’s effectiveness to the point that it’s pointless?
Would the Blazer trainers still find a way to sabotage Greg’s health as everyone thinks they do?
Do we know that Greg’s injuries are the result of more minutes than his body can handle?
Given Greg’s propensity to foul, would a 24-minute limit actually reduce his average minutes per game?
Ah, but you're forgetting something, Grasshopper
Namely, whoever the Blazers trade for will promptly LOSE his ability to chew gum without breaking a knee.
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
Yes and also a WEIGHT limit
Until Oden shows any ability at all to stay healthy the Blazers are wise to focus most of their attention on keeping him that way. This means keeping his weight down and minimizing stress to his joints. Weight might be more important than minutes, but reducing the risk on both fronts is the savvy move.
Yes.
The Blazers really blew it when they allowed him to bulk up during his first comeback.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
In spite of their claims otherwise, I think there was also a connection between the bone chips, impact with Maggette's brace and the broken patella
the diagnosis and treatment of which could also be attributed to Blazer management.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
Amen
Which means that, if correct, GO has only suffered TWO knee injuries—the mysterious, tiny cartilage lesion which led to GO’s microfracture procedure, and the patella injury initially sustained in a collision with Cory Maggette’s metal knee brace. (The latter was likely never treated properly, thus the medical staff’s reluctance to acknowledge that GO’s later patella fracture was related to the knee collision.)
These injuries were sustained by different knees, and seem to have no connection whatsoever.
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
except they
are connected to the same main frame….Oden’s Body
[Good defense "releases" your offense]
Good point! :-)
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
the patella injury initially sustained in a collision with Cory Maggette’s metal knee brace. (The latter was likely never treated properly
You have proof of this, I presume? Or is it just a strong hunch based on circumstantial evidence? How would you suggest the Blazer’s medical staff treat a patella that had been run into by a metal knee brace, any differently than they did from April-December, 2009?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
circumstantial evidence is very strong
considering he lost time after the collision to bone chips
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 8, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
What, no suggestions for the medical staff re: how to treat Greg's knee after the collision?
other than “put your house on the market ‘cause you aren’t long for this town?”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Oden's injuries aren't repitive use.
Yao Ming’s were. It doesn’t make sense for Oden to play with strict restrictions because his injuries are of a different nature. The only way to avoid catastrophic “freak” accidents like the one’s Oden has suffered is to not play him at all.
by erastus25 on Oct 8, 2010 9:33 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
Tendonitis is often a repitive use condition.
The fact that he already has it before making a full recovery hints to poor body mechanics IMO. Poor mechanics and balance don’t necessarily improve with increased use. They could get worse, even, the more minutes Greg plays.
I hate to be a doom-and-gloom guy. I love Greg and I hope his contract situation, and the Blazers’ desire to win, don’t cause him to rush into physical activity before doing all he can to balance his body as well is it can be balanced.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
this may be misstating cause and effect a bit
The fact that he already has it before making a full recovery hints to poor body mechanics IMO.
I suffered bicipetal tendinitis as a college pitcher that plagues me to this day – which as you allude to – was a mechanical issue. My fastball dropped from 85 to 65 because I threw with all arm instead of using my legs and torso to accelerate my arm. Under the stress of college competition – my arm didn’t hold up.
Greg is suffering patellar tendinitis not because of poor mechanics, but because he is stressing his knee tissues differently during rehabilitation. Poor mechanics would manifest themselves in running – and he is running far less now than in the past. Rehabilitation exercises are mechanically sound or he wouldn’t be doing them.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
I don't know, dog.
Your shoulder girdle isn’t a weight bearing joint—you use your knee when you stand, walk, or push off to lift a weight. If anything, tendinitis in his knee before he starts going full speed could suggest his mechanics are REALLY bad. It certainly fits his hip/knee profile, that has been beatin’ to death already.
You had a 85mph fastball? Vrrrroooom!
I think I threw 50 in pee-wee league once…
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
pundits have commented on Greg's "running" style
which could potentially be a poor-mechanics source of tendinitis. However, I think this tendinitis manifested during rehabilitation – which is a very controlled environment not subject to additional stress from mechanical flaws.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
It could show how cruddy his rehab environment was too.
I mean, you’re supposed to be re-development the continuity, flexibility, and strength of the joint. Inflaming the tendon seems indicative of poor treatment IMO. IE- the staff is allowing Oden to over-do it (again).
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Poor mechanics and balance don’t necessarily improve with increased use. They could get worse
OTOH, Greg and his agents have consulted with other doctors (Vancouver BC, etc ) and they could have suggested that he change his balance and mechanics and these changes may be resulting in the patellar tendonitis, as his knee tendons adjusts to the new movement and “track” of his joints
The delay of Oden’s return to the floor does not automatically need to be negaitve news
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I love it!
I hope you’re right and appreciate the optimism.
Cheers.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
That's what he's doing
not playing at all. GO need’s to brace up those knees, take some anti-inflammatories and get out on the floor and play. Is there any player in the NBA that plays pain free? His team needs him now!
No
Because IMO opinion an N.B.A. center is not played to be porcelain.
If the medical evaluation is that he is healed? Then you treat him as healed with the only concessions being to physical stanima and readiness and actual game time play and situations.
Add to that my opinion that in a contract year, we NEED to know what Oden can do, or can’t do. Are we potentially signing a guy who can be a starting center? Or are we signing a guy only capable of carefully limited back-up minutes. The harsh truth is this needs to be known….so IMO you push Oden as much as you would in good concious push any healthy center on your roster.
That’s my opinion. Think about it, I find it interesting that this question raises it’s head in relationship to Greg Oden…and yet I’ve never heard it asked in relationship to Przybilla. Przybilla who supposedly suffered a more serious 2 injuries to his knee…and yet nobody is waiting to wrap Joel in bubble wrap.
We all want Oden to do well. We don’t want to see him injured. I think subconciously or conciously we all know what seeing Oden crumpled on the hardwood again would mean. And we all so much want to NOT see that image…we fear it.
But IMO we as fans need to get past the “mental” aspect of Odens injury as much as Oden himself will have to get past it….
N.B.A. center is NOT a bubblewrap position. It simply cannot be.
I even think The Rockets are being foolish. Yao can either play, or he can’t. Do they think 24 minutes is a magical bubble of time on the court that will protect Yao? Because every injury happens in an unforeseen split second of time…and that time split second can happen in 24 minutes as easily as 32 or 40.
IMO these are athletes and players and you simply cannot shelter and protect them to a healthy career.
I do think medical clearance is important…but healed is healed….either you are…or you aren’t.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
by Krang on Oct 8, 2010 9:35 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
things are black or white
…unless they are gray
I agree with you to a point...
but if Yao’s are from the strain of being used constantly then less use might actually help him extend his career.
Maybe...
….in Yao’s case…if it’s stress fractures to the foot? Maybe. But only maybe.
I think Yao can come down or have an another player land on his foot…as easily and unexepectedly in any 24 minute timeframe as he could in an extended time frame. I have serious doubts if Yao is predisposed to injury…that limiting his time is really going to help. But since Houston is a competitor to The Blazers…
I think they should hold him down to 12 minutes a game….
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
less use might actually help him extend his career
The classic example of this in pro sports is pitch counts in baseball. Once the player reaches the majors and is being paid millions, the emphasis is on his number of career appearances, not how long he pitches in any given game
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
At least Yao has had a career to extend
what will we be extending the case of Oden? More time on the court or less time in the hospital?
[Good defense "releases" your offense]
Oden is the 3rd or 4th best big man on the roster
A minutes limit probably isn’t an issue for a backup. This should take care of itself unless (until) Camby gets hurt.
by lankownia on Oct 8, 2010 9:39 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
When Oden is healthy he is the 1st best big man on this roster
no one else comes close to having the same impact on a game
by sammymohawk on Oct 8, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
never
has he shown himself to be as good as Camby. compared to Aldridge…there have been some flashes. But the consistency is never there. Even Darko Milicic flashed some serious talent in brief dominant moments.
When Greg Oden is on the court it changes the entire complexion of a game
I love Camby as much as the next guy, but Oden forces the other team to have a different offensive approach. He impacts every possession that he is on the floor for. It is not just about numbers. Oden is in his early 20s, Camby in his late 30s. And if you do want to look at numbers, I believe Oden’s rebounding, block, and scoring metrics from when he was on the court last year do outweigh Camby’s. Maybe this is an out of sight out of mind situation, but I have never seen an opposing team change what they do for Camby in near the same way that they have to for Oden. That applies to both ends of the court.
by sammymohawk on Oct 8, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
and to expand on the point
Greg is not Darko. He is not Michael Olowokandi or Kwame Brown. He is the #1 pick worthy, big time impact, once in a generation center that he was billed as, and has just been inhibited by injuries. He is not a backup on this team. He is one of the three pillars that our championship hopes are built around. As a Blazer fan I would love to diminish his importance to feel better about the situation as well, but that’s not being honest with ourselves.
by sammymohawk on Oct 8, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
don't feed the trolls
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
It's like with the current political climate
a vocal minority is driving the perception even though they don’t represent the majority’s viewpoint. I know I get sucked in too easily, but someone has to act as a counter balance, right? I just love this website so much that it’s hard for me not to comment when someone says GO is the 3rd or 4th best big man on our team and has never shown himself to be as good as Camby.
I don’t do it for you and Norsky and the others who know their stuff…I do it so the casual Blazer fan who reads these comments doesn’t think Greg is worthless.
i understand the sentiment
and your comments helped me not to feed the troll :)
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
Preach, Sammy, preach!
Not that the naysayers are listening. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.
Even if GO goes on to lead the Blazers to a championship, the haters will point to his stats and say Kevin Durant is better. But you’re correct: when he’s on the floor, GO forces opponents to distort both their offense and their defense, creating opportunities that pad GO’s teammates’ stats. More importantly, those opportunities lead to Blazer victories—EASY ones very often.
The latter point is both overlooked and important. Contending teams have laugher wins—the kind that allow their stars to rest entire fourth quarters. That’s why the contending teams are so much fresher than the Blazers come playoff time.
When GO was going good in the weeks prior to his last injury, you’d occasionally see Roy & LMA lounging on the bench yucking it up towards the end of games. Without GO, that NEVER happens.
I was born in '52, and I believe in #52. Hang in there, GO.
You too, Przy: everyone knows you're the heart & soul of the Blazers.
Spot on sammy...
and a rec for you…
Greg is absolutely the third leg of the Blazers championship stool…
(please excuse the early morning triple threat analogy)
A quick review of the PERs anyone?
Dwight Howard (why not?): 24.07
Oden: 23.14 (backup? really?)
Aldridge: 18.3
Camby: 17.91
Przybilla: 11.18 (15.46 in 08-09)
Dante (in case you meant him): 14.38
…or did you mean in the league? because then the only two big men with higher PERs were Duncan and Howard- so 3rd would be an acceptable assessment.
"I love Pluto. Everybody loves Pluto."
by rpresto2 on Oct 8, 2010 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wasn't Oden's most recent injury early in the game? 1st half at least, right?
I’m not sure I can point to his injuries and say that they are the result of him playing too much…and since I can’t do that I’m gonna lean towards no with the caveat that we should do whatever ensures his health for the playoffs (though we should not ignore the importance of getting a good seed if we plan to navigate the Western Conference Playoffs)
i think
until is deemed fully recovered from this last injury, then sure, limit his minutes.
once ‘fully healed’, then i would think no limit. the idea being to see if he can handle it. if he is injured again, i think then that’s the time to consider a cap on his playing time. the basic idea being to find out what kind of car you’ve got here, one that you can rely on all the time and ride hard, one that looks and performs great but only in short spurts, or something in between. without testing it, you are never going to know.
as an aside, i’d like to know more about how the rockets arrived at the 24 minutes/game number? given their GM, i would doubt he would accept some random number without a little evidence as to why that would be beneficial. i wonder what the supporting argument for 24/per with light day after practices was?
I think we are assuming...
“When Oden Returns” means he is deemed medically “fully healed”. I don’t think you have Oden return…until he is deemed medically fully healed.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
true
i suppose i meant to imply after he was comfortable playing in nba games again. after a year away, i expect it’ll take him at least a couple of weeks of playing games to feel comfortable. until then, i think limiting his minutes make sense. after that point, arbitrary as it is, i’d play him as much as possible or made sense.
No
if Oden were a veteran who was well-established in the league, then I would be more apt to say yes and save him for a postseason run. But unfortunately, he’s still trying to figure out who he is as an NBA player, maximize his potential, and feel his way through a game. He won’t be able to do that sitting on the bench. I’d rather having him learning this stuff on the fly mid-season than in April
"I want to be traded to a contender" is almost always code-speak for "I'm a loser."
-Dave, 2/5/2010: http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/2/5/1297509/no-amore-for-amare
by douglast on Oct 8, 2010 9:46 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
sitting on the bench
he can do it next to a pair of crutches, with a suit on, for a full game or do it for half a game wearing a uniform … and playing the other half
It sounds like you've made up your mind
But is it really as cut-and-dried as you are saying? Sure, there are potential benefits to limiting his minutes, but Greg is a game-changing force when he is on the floor. There are very real benefits to playing him more. That’s what the organization needs to decide, is whether the potential benefits outweigh the known benefits of having him on the floor playing, and then balance that with his injury history. I’m glad I’m not the one making that decision.
When the world knows Nico Batum as "The Inevitable", I'll be very happy with where he is as a player.
yup
I commented below before I read yours, but we pretty much say the same thing. We can’t damage a career that hasn’t started yet . His career gets damaged the most by not playing. So lets figure out what we have here and not continue to hold the team hostage to his health. There is a lot more to consider, than a singular person who might not ever make it in the NBA.
It’s a tougher decision, for sure, when you have to accept the responsibility of the consequences, but you have a team/business that you are trying to get to the next level.
Right now Oden is ‘potentially" the biggest sail on your ship but you’ll never discover if the patches hold by not hoisting it into the wind.
[Good defense "releases" your offense]
You can't, because Oden is in a contract year and wants to play.
I’d go a step further and say that instead of getting back on the floor, Greg should spend this winter working on better balancing his body. Then he should be played 20 minutes a game. Otherwise, he’s going to have tendinitis and nagging injuries for the rest of his career (he might anyways, of course). But he’s got A LOT of money at stake with this campaign and I’m sure he and his family are excited about him getting his first BIG contract.
Bynum and Yao have their deals in place, no? That’s why I don’t think these situations compare. Would it be fair to Greg to limit his minutes and potentially affect his value? I say no, which is unfortunate for his long term health, and possibly his long term financial potential as well.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 9:54 AM PDT reply actions
Fair to Greg?
Are you kidding me? This has nothing to do with being fair to Greg and has everything to do with what’s best for the organization. I think we’ve been more than fair to his over the past years. It’s time we put him to the test to find out if we should keep him.
Paul Allen's an "interesting fellow"
What's best for the organization
is for Greg to have a long career with as few nagging injuries as possible. My bias is that Greg, although injury prone, has been mismanaged. The Blazers should have concentrated on balancing his body and hip/knee mechanics rather than allowing him to bulk up in order to compete on the floor. So I tend to think Greg needs to recondition/re-balance his body, not lift a bunch of heavy weights and play ball with a nagging tendinitis condition.
What’s fair for Greg right now is to be able to play as much as is he is capable of in order to increase his market value. I don’t think that’s best for he or the organization long term, of course, but it’s an understandable position for him to take.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
ORLY?
What’s best for the organization is for Greg to have a long career with as few nagging injuries as possible.
I kind of thought the best thing for the organization is to have a dominating center. If that happens to be a healthy Greg Oden, awesome. You can’t dominate playing less than half the game.
As the next sentence in my post points out though,
my focus is on THIS YEAR: getting Greg back as balanced and flexible as possible, taking as much time as is necessary. My assumption is that the training staff has prioritized Greg’s strength and ability to bang over him balancing his body and rebuilding the mechanics of how his hips/knees move. This assumption is supported by how much weight the training staff allowed Greg to put on during his first ‘comeback’. I tend to think of the Blazer training staff as fairly shortsighted—more akin to field medics rather than the type of holistic staff I think would bring out the best in Oden’s long term career. We don’t want a guy with nagging injuries and I think rethinking the parameters of what a healthy Greg Oden looks like would give the team a better chance of having such a player long term.
Obviously, the goal is to get Greg into dominating 35mpg game shape. How you do that is up for interpretation. If you’re confidant the training staff is doing the best job possible, I hope you’re right! I reserve the right to be a skeptic and would love nothing more than to be proven wrong.
But injury recovery is all about treatment. Greg isn’t a doctor, he’s doing what the training staff tells him to do. That makes them partially responsible for the type of career he goes on to have. They should be thinking WELL beyond this season, however, and I think we should be too.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't disagree entirely,
but the Blazers and Greg are faced with a contract situation to resolve. Certainly the focus on THIS YEAR makes sense, but the Blazers will need to decide about making a long-term commitment at the end of the season. How will they know what he’s worth if we never find out?
If we baby him through it, sign him to a 5 year contract for a billion dollars, and it turns out we’ve already seen his best year, it will be a franchise-killing albatross, like Eddie Curry.
Curry IS available
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
Ew.
If he becomes a Blazer I hope he doesn’t take after Rasheed and start throwing HIS game towel in anyone’s face. I’ve heard where that game towel has been…
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
The ref will probably take care of this for us.
Tweet! Tweet! Tweet! :)
Si equum mortuum flagellēs, non celerium currat.
Then we should put him on a strict 6 foul limit.
by 52therim on Oct 8, 2010 10:38 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
perfect
let him play hard as he can for 6 fouls and let the minutes take care of themselves.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
It truly may be a moot point for the first month...
between lack of conditioning and rehabbing his brain as much as his leg, he’s going to look very rusty, I suspect, for quite a few weeks.
No.
He is 22 years old and we have to give him an extension after this year. I really dont want a 22 year old on the team who in his 4th year in the NBA still wont be able to play over 25 mins a game regularly without us worrying about getting himself hurt.
WITH ODEN ON OUR SIDE
Exactly
We need to use this year as an evaluation to see if we want to keep him. If he’s still unable to play lengthy minutes after this season we need to let him go.
Paul Allen's an "interesting fellow"
I think the big question after this year
is whether he can be upright at all. If he truly is as brittle as some believe, the Blazers will figure that out. One more major, season ending injury, and I say just release him outright. If he goes to some other team and becomes a stud, so be it. But you have to try to get him through the year and have him ready for the playoffs.
yes
i’d say 30 minutes tops. he’ll probably foul out before then anyways.
and make him wear freaking kneepads/braces.
This is reason #1 why I say the Blazers training staff is clueless...
make him wear freaking kneepads/braces.
I mean, duh…. I want big Red Bill Walton pads!
i wouldn't put him on a limit at all
the guy’s 22 years old? He’s not a aging C like Yao. Would be ridiculous for him and the team to put him on a limit.
/cambyfive
No
Different people, different bodies, different injuries. Greg’s injuries, to me, don’t suggest that he’s been over-used, or that he would benefit from a 24-minute limit.
Now, some common sense is important, of course. He shouldn’t be playing 36 mpg every single night.
He already limits his minutes via constant foul
trouble, and still gets injured. Overuse doesn’t seem to be the concern. Use does.
He's only averaged 24 min
In his first two years active. He only averaged 28 in college. And he still got hurt. So what’s the point? They’re not wear and tear injuries. He’s 22. The only argument I’ve seen on hear in a long time that makes sense about Oden is that fan post about a collagen deficiency. Somebody needs to explore that.
by displacedblazerfan on Oct 8, 2010 10:25 AM PDT reply actions
collagen deficiency
that was a good read, sounded very plausible.
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
Wow, I am shocked at how many people voted for a minutes cap
I agree with many of the above posters: we need to see what Greg can do. This roster is currently built with the idea that we will have a defensive force center in the middle. If Greg really really really can’t play regularly as a result of injuries, some changes need to be made to the roster as a whole.
Play him, play him, play him
I
No
If he’s healthy, play him. If he gets hurt we’ve got Marcus and Joel.
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
24 MPG for the first four weeks
I doubt he will be ready for more than that due to conditioning anyways.
After the first few weeks, increase that to 28 mpg for another four weeks.
Then, as many minutes as he feels he can handle.
by Rodney Gustafson on Oct 8, 2010 10:26 AM PDT reply actions
yes
hell yes
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" It just takes an iron fist to keep the riff raff under control and her princess hand is mad strong" - Idoltime
No
The only reason to have him play limited minutes is if there is a lingering health problem, and if there is a lingering health problem there is no way he should be playing.
15 minutes through 3/4ths of the season, then bump it up to 20-25 going into the playoffs
By the time the team is in the postseason (knock on wood), he’ll be ready to play 25-30. If the coaching staff is aiming for a solid Oden return with no major injury I think this is their reality, and if he managed to pull it off I think most of us would consider it a huge success going forward in his career.
Absolutely not
First, one has to make two VERY LARGE assumptions to come up with this plan:
1 – That minutes played in NBA basketball games are directly relateable to chance of injury
2 – The Greg Oden’s injuries are related to use
If you remember, Greg Oden’s first knee injury occured while getting up off the couch. The second, I recall, occured early in a game, well below any rational ‘minutes’ threshhold.
The third assumption is that all NBA minutes are created equal. I would state that 1, it’s the number of possessions, not the minutes. 24 minutes versus the Denver Nuggets or Phoenix Suns is different than 48 minutes vs. the Timberwolves.
Additionally, I would say that if usage is indeed a factor in injury, it’s usage over time (say 1 week), not per game. A more rational plan would be to say “250 possessions over any 7 day period”.
M, period. Fresh, comma.
I wouldn't.
This is a big boy league. Unless he’s going to accept 30% less money to play 30% less than he should be playing, either play him or dump him.
i think this will be a non-issue
greg’s foul problems are going to end up limiting him to around 24 minutes anyway. he won’t be in basketball shape when he comes back. that almost certainly will lead to foul issue which have plagued him for a while.
on the occasions when he is able to play more minute i would enforce a limit but I’m not really sure what the right number is.
I'd be satisfied evenly splitting the minutes at center 3 ways.
When one of them gets hot, leave him in for five more minutes. Otherwise, there’s no reason to throw the team on anyone’s back when we have such fantastic depth at that position.
Stealth > Wealth
I recommend drinking more milk or take a calcium supplement
Broken wrist, chipped knee, and broken patella. I don’t want Oden missing more games because of Osteoporosis.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
let's say Oden is at 100% and can play 36 minutes per game
is it fair to restrict his minutes, given that he’s eligible for an extension and will be a restricted free agent next year?
How confident are teams going to be in him once he’s a free agent? Wouldn’t they be more inclined to offer a max deal if he played 3000 minutes, as opposed to 1500-2000?
This is the kind of thing that could drive a wedge between player and team.
While this strategy could help the Blazers, it could also hurt them.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
I'm sure
Fouls will limit his minutes, not health or coaching.
When he comes back, our biggest concern with Greg will return to how to limit his freaking fouls
The 2012-13 NBA season: a dynasty begins.
what are we saving him for?
This guy needs tons of minutes to get to a “factor” level…If he was a proven and established veteran that we were saving for a playoff run then it might be different…but he is still a kid trying to establish himself as an NBA player.
Both he and the Blazers need a "proof of purchase’ that will give themselves an opportunity to finally pursue a future identity.
I’m pretty sure they are still holding on to him as a franchise player and will continue to try to preserve that possibility. Alas, Common sense will likely prevail and we will continue to be held hostage by his health….My take is, it’s time to get the cards on the table and play the hand we have.
If he is given the clearance to play, then get him on the court. His best “rehabilitation” is playing time
[Good defense "releases" your offense]
Bad Long Term Plan
I agree that he needs time to ease his way back, but to pull anyone out because an egg timer buzzes is just crazy. Budget his energy so he’s not too tired (and gets hurt). When the game is on the line put the best players on the floor. If a pro needs training wheels, then he’s not a pro. There’s no place at this level for porcelain players. When Greg’s healthy use him and (heaven forbid) when he breaks get a different tool. A shovel with a broken handle is just going to make a crappy job. Break the darn thing off and get a new one. I truely want the best for Oden, hope he’s tough enough to stay healthy, and win ten rings. Don’t try to make him into something he’s not. Somethimes we all have to suck it up and move on.
Is he healthy?
Is he 100%?
What do the doctors say?
What did the second and third opinion say?
I’m not going to guess at it as a fan. Those people make a lot of money to know the answer and AS a fan or management I’d make sure their answers were good ones.
"The game was delayed for over 15 minutes with 5:07 left in the second quarter after France's Nicolas Batum, who plays for the Portland Trail Blazers, dunked and twisted the rim. Volunteers and officials scrambled to put a new rim on the basket and reattach a net."
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/olybb/news/story?id=5509394
It doesn't matter
I hate to be a pessimist, but Greg will continue to re-injure himself until he gets his body balanced and fixes the root of the problem. The Blazers training staff has repeatedly failed to do accomplish this. Prendergraph going down last night reminded me that something must be wrong with the way our players are training, warming-up, and cooling-down. Until we take a page from the Phoenix Suns PT book, our players will be injury prone. The problem is we wont go seek specialists or try new things because that would be accepting that the current system is a failure, which should and would result in the training staff being fired. The Blazers old school training system is broken — just like our players.
yeah, Amare didn't have microfracture surgery with the Suns
Robin Lopez and Barbosa have no injury history. Richardson and Nash have been injury free as Suns, too.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
Amen.
They should all be fired. Immediately. If anything, just to clear the bad vibes.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 8, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you're on to something
How many “freak” accidents need to happen before you smell the coffee burning? The organization needs to take a long look in the mirror. This is happening (intentional or not) by design. Lightning doesn’t strike this many times unless somebody’s holding up an umbrella…
or, my little sarcasm missed its mark
the Suns have not been immune to acute or chronic injury.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
He’ll be on a strict minutes cap anyway— its called foul trouble and Nate’s ridiculously conservative handling of said foul trouble.
by jksnake99 on Oct 8, 2010 1:22 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Save him for the playoffs?
I say bring him back 10-20 games before the playoffs to get him back in the flow. Until then keep him hermetically sealed in a medical facility. Half-joking.
by hollywood robinson on Oct 8, 2010 1:32 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm not joking...
I’m totally in favor of that plan.
Bubble wrap, weight limitation and minute limitation guidelines!
By “bubble wrap” I mean, put him in the most advanced knee support device that can act as protector while allowing mobility. Hey Nike, develop it!!!!
All three of these things seem like smart moves to me. Why not approach with caution while putting Greg in the best position possible to succeed?
Greg, I’m a huge fan and pulling for you to become an all-star while you’re a Trail Blazer!!
"I come to you now, at the turn of the tide." -- Brandon "Gandalf" Roy, April 24th, 2010
Playoffs? You kiddin me? Playoffs?
“I just hope we can win a game!”
While obviously we’ll probably win more than just a game but isn’t it a bit of a fallacy to assume we can rest G.O. for the postseason and have him play big minutes there? We need to be on a clear path there first. If by limiting minutes only at the beginning of the year is what they mean, then yeah definitely do that and ramp them up to starter’s minutes starting after the All-Star Break. We did the same thing in 08-09 as I recall.
FACT
Fatigued players are more likely to injure themselves.
Do you think Greg is the kind of guy to let Nate know that he isn’t in NBA game shape and needs to rest, or do you think he’s the kind of guy to push himself to the limit, and in doing so may actually injure himself in yet another way? I think the latter.
My proposal to limit Greg to 24 MPG for the first several weeks or month, then raise that to 28 MPG, and up from there is, as much as anything, an attempt to protect Greg from his own pride and desire to succeed.
He should not be rushed back. And once he is back, it is important that he not be expected or even ALLOWED to do too much. It is for his own benefit, which in turn benefits the franchise.
If he is ready to play in say mid-december, this would mean that he would be playing as many minutes as Nate wants him for before the All Star Break.
by Rodney Gustafson on Oct 8, 2010 2:27 PM PDT reply actions
Focus on a Championship
I think we can all agree Portland isn’t winning a championship this year. They may contend (at best), but they won’t be taking home any Larry O’Brien trophies this year. The only way Portland will win a championship in this era is with a healthy, dominant Greg Oden. Miami is just too talented… With that said, why take any chances during the interim? The best medical professionals in the world can’t say for certain how extended minutes will effect Greg so I am certainly not going to try. Instead, err on the side of caution and limit his minutes. Monitor Oden’s progress. Let his big body get used to the rigors of an 82+ game schedule. Plan for the future: Focus on a Championship
I'm all for planning for the future...
but I still say, with this roster, we should be aiming for the title this (and every) year. What if Wade doesn’t play in the finals? What if Kobe gets hurt? Window opens quickly with just two injuries…
Moving time
B Roy for Brook Lopez….bring over Freeland …trade Joel’s contract and bayless for another big……we can’t have to many!
We must endeavor to persevere.
yes
7 mins. each qrt. until the playoffs then 7 mins. first three qrt. and 10mins. the fourth qrt.
yes
A strict cap of 48 minutes a game. Unless it goes into OT.
The problem is
GO needs to play night in and night out to get into game shape and polish his game. If you remember last season his offensive game was starting to smooth out before he went down. He is by no means a “crafty veteran” yet. His game needs a lot of development (offense especially) and the only way that’s going to get done is if he’s playing in real NBA games and logging major minutes.
Ask Stephen Strasburg how well a plan like this works.
They were as conservative as possible with him for over a year. Then he has the worst injury possible for a pitcher.
How about let him play until his body shows tiring, then give him a rest. There’s nothing wrong with observing his play, stamina, etc. and making substitutions accordingly.
Limiting minutes for a healthy player makes no sense IMO
If he’s healthy, he should be allowed to play without limitation. If he’s not healthy, he should sit until he is.
PUT a limit on Oden? Are you kidding me?!?
Just look at the built-in limiters:
1. Only gets 6 fouls before fouling out. Needs 10 to 12.
2. Conditioning. Dude hasn’t run hard for over a year.
3. Injuries. You think he’s NOT gonna get tweaked again — once, twice, three times? Wanna bet on that?
You put Oden on the floor, run him at full speed until he has to come off and repeat as possible.
You DON’T sit around glancing at a stopwatch to hold him to some goofball time limit.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I agree with you 100% if all you care about is winning games in the regular season...
But I want him healthy for the playoffs…
Good post given Yao and Bynum
but those guys also have fairly defined roles on their teams. I’m more worried about the problems we had working Greg into the offense last year and the roles/usage of Roy, Aldridge, and Greg. I think it’s a tougher issue, because when Greg’s on the court he poses an offensive threat despite not being a fully developed player. The problem is, if he’s only playing 24 minutes a game does it make sense to re-write the offense to be more like 2009 Orlando’s or 1994 Houston’s where you can play four three point shooters with a kick in kick out center?
I'm going to have to go with yes. Oden is too important to risk injury in extended minutes. Plus we have Camby and Joel. So there
is no need to push it, I’d prefer Oden could play 35 minutes a game, but one step at a time.
I can't help thinking it's the diet.
He needs a strict 24 hamburger a season cap.
Be cautious, think long-term, but let him play...
It totally makes sense for the brittle repetitive stress injury guy like Yao to limit minutes. It also makes sense for the loaded Fakers to coast through the regs and save Bynum for May.
I don’t think a strict clock time limit makes sense for Greg.
However, I also am thinking championship – this year, and in the future. To get a championship this year, we need home court (top 4), we need everybody including Greg healthy and playing well, and we need a lot of luck… But there is that 5-10% chance there, enough to think championship in October…
For both a playoff run this year, and for future championships, you need Greg on the court and dominating, so I think it’s prudent to be cautious with Greg in the early part of the season. Tendinitis does require rest to heal, and can be aggravated again with overuse, so I personally would like to see tham dial it back a bit to make sure there is zero tendinitis. Keep him in the pool until it’s gone. Then start up again.
He should be limited when he returns, but not by a clock. I think the natural limits of his propensity to foul, and his lack of conditioning (which will lead to lazy arm fouls) will relegate him to short 5-6 minute shifts, once a quarter.
I of course hope Nate doesn’t take him out for 2 fouls, but rather let’s him learn to play through it. I believe you also get breaks from the refs when you have 5 fouls… let’s find out.
Finally, I would tell Greg to “armor up”. Knee braces, big red knee pads, with matching big red elbow pads. Maybe big ol Moses Malone (but red) goggles to complete the manacing linebacker picture… (A new nickname?… Big Red?)
Limit minutes. you have GOT to be kidding me
He has played 82 games in 3 years and averaged less than 24 minutes per game. In those 82 games he has played more than 30 minutes only 11 times. I do not think playing too many minutes has been the problem, he needs to play more minutes a LOT more. Limit Odens minutes to what 15 minutes a game, hahahahahahaha how much more could they be limited than they already have been. Bynum and Ming have both played 30+ minutes on a night to night basis, lets see Oden do it for a least a few games before you talk about limiting minutes.
Who should decide on Oden's playing time when he returns?
-PA
-Cho
-Hat guy
-Coach
-the MSP crew
-his teammates
-Pryz
-the medical staff
-Dr. James Andrews
-Erin Andrews
-Skip Bayless
-Jerryd Bayless’s blog
-Oregon Live commenters
-Blazer’s Edge Fan Poll
-Oden
"Parting ways is not the end of the world. Ultimately, it may not be a bad thing at all, but right now I know the emotions are pretty raw. But it doesn't serve anyone to bash the Trail Blazers or Paul. It is after all a business of tough decisions. So, for the sake of the players, coaches and everyone who believes in Trail Blazers basketball, let's turn the page, move on and keep our eye on the prize." -KP
by The Cactus Leaguer on Oct 9, 2010 2:27 PM PDT reply actions
Yes, with a caveat...
I’d strictly limit Oden’s minutes when he returns UNTIL March, when I would start increasing them in order to get his conditioning, role, and mindset right for the playoffs.
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