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The Boxscore's Story

When Henry Chadwick invented the boxscore for baseball, it was a way in which the story of the game could be told without taking up as much valuable newspaper space. It was a brilliant idea. By following the numbers, one could quickly get an idea about who played well and who did not. One could generally see who the heroes and goats were at a glance. While it wasn’t a replacement for actually watching the game, it did give enough information to carry a conversation around the water cooler, or whatever they would gather around before its invention in 1911.

Star-divide

 

A boxscore was meant to tell a story of what has happened. But being filled with numbers caught the eyes of mathematicians, whom I hear rather enjoy numbers. But for a long time, the game remained subjective. Batting averages were nice to know, but were never as useful as the eye test in the minds of most managers. Still, boxscores were kept, and mathematicians silently worked behind the scenes, treating baseball as a pass time, just like the rest of the country. Baseball was always something to be watched and enjoyed for what it was in that moment.

 

In 1951, one of those mathematicians made his pass time public. Hy Turner published The Complete Encyclopedia of Baseball. And the public got a taste of what the geeks had been playing with. In 1969 computers were first used to compile statistics, leading to the publishing of Big Mac: MacMillan Publishing’s Baseball Encyclopedia. No longer were statistics simply some lab-coat’s toy. Statistics were starting to have an impact on opinions about players. Objective measurements were proving to be far more reliable than subjective ideas.

 

Then came the advent of SABRMetrics. Where statistics were brought to a whole new level. No longer were statistics limited to what has previously occurred. Statistics were used to predict the future. David Grabiner, in his Sabermetrics Manifesto (1994) writes that one of the questions sabermetrics can answer is "How many home runs will Ken Griffey hit next year?" In 2003, Moneyball was released, which changed how everyone looked at baseball, especially because of the use of statistics. No longer was watching baseball about enjoying what it was in the moment, but every at-bat, every fly ball was new information with which one could use to predict the future.

 

And that mindset quickly infected the viewing of other sports, basketball included. But baseball has an advantage in statistics over basketball. In baseball, everything can be measured, down to millimeters and thousandths of a second. Jonathan Hale, for example, in 2007 accumulated enough information to determine which umpires had the smallest and largest strike zones. Baseball can be seen from a completely objective angle. Basketball simply cannot.

 

And this can be infuriating for some people. Especially when that subjectivity goes against the home team. What constitutes a foul? Depends on the situation. Depends if any of the referees saw the infraction. Depends on which players are involved. But we can usually chalk that up to part of the game over which little can be done. But statistics are still far behind.

 

Offensive statistics abound in basketball, but there are many arguments amongst the patrons of these statistic over which one is best, or for that matter, even useful. Defensive statistics are even worse. Even those who track defensive statistics agree that it is limited at best. No matter the statistic, predicting the future in basketball is like looking into pea soup in comparison to the general accuracy of baseball. 

 

I think this has to do with the sheer number of variables that one would have to take into account in order to get an accurate picture. Variables that would include mental state of mind, level of effort on each particular play, things that are impossible to measure in detail, even though they may be able to be witnessed broadly. It’s generally accepted that the traditional boxscore in basketball is inadequate. But attempts to go beyond it have also proved inadequate. A coach or general manager with a solid subjective eye can hold his own against coaches and general managers who are tied closely to APBRMetrics (basketball’s version of baseball’s SABRMetrics). And a good eye is necessary for finding developing talent. 

 

But simply talking about statistics is not my only point. It’s my contention that the use of advanced statistics has taken the enjoyment of the games away from many of the fans. Because all the advanced statistics are widely available on this tangle of wires and radio signals we call the internet. Everyone can look at them. Everyone can use their subjectivity to choose an imperfect, but objective measurement. How many aruguments have we seen on Blazers’ Edge over win shares, adjusted +/-, PER, SCHOENE, and everything else?

 

Now, some people have a good idea about how to use statistics properly. And some of the most level headed people on the subject of statistics are the statisticians themselves. Mostly because they are aware of where each statistic shines, and where it falls flat. Basketball statisticians, I believe, are more likely to trust their eyes more than ordinary fans are. 

 

And the statisticians are still able to enjoy the games, because they are doing two things they love at the same time. But for those of us who aren’t that into math, advanced statistics are merely a club to use to beat up people into following our particular "objectivity." 

 

Because of statistics, I have seen people despise players and coaches that are on our own team. I have seen serious posts about trading our best player based on a handful of preseason games. I have seen the tide turn on so many players that used to be able to do no wrong. I’ve seen players booed on their home court, because their advanced statistics weren’t as favorable as originally predicted. 

 

Lies, damn lies and statistics indeed. Statistics leave 29 fan bases unsatisfied, and the thirtieth fan base can’t stay satisfied for long. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I can’t survive as a fan in that kind of environment.

 

And so, for fans who can’t explain the details involved in how to calculate True Shooting Percentage, I would ask you to do something completely radical. Trust your eyes. And you know what will happen? You’ll often be wrong. Glory in that. Because only when we find out we’re wrong are we ready to learn what is right. Statistics are never right or wrong. They just are. And as a result, they can never teach you anything about yourself. This is why, I suspect, that Hollinger, Pelton, and others still use their eyes. Maybe they don’t nail the prediction, but they grow in making it.

 

And in learning how to use one’s eyes, the games become fun again. They become stories again. The regular old boxscore has some meaning left in it. Brandon Roy can be our star player again, even with a few selfish thoughts swirling around. LaMarcus Aldridge can be that eccentric 6’ 11" outside shooter with out being crucified for not being the second coming of Karl Malone. Greg Oden can be himself without all the second guessing and wishful revisionist history. Jerryd Bayless can be a young kid who is still growing into his role. Rudy Fernandez can actually be homesick, and yet still be cheered for being here anyways. Since it’s a subjective game, I’m going to watch it subjectively as well.

 

Maybe this makes me naïve. Maybe this makes me a blind homer. But I’m okay with that. I can’t think of any other way I would want to be a fan. The season is starting. Let the GM be in charge of the future. I’m going to worry about right now. Because now is when the story of the Portland Trailblazers is being told. And in the spirit of Henry Chadwick, it’s a story I have got to hear in any way that it’s being told.

 

Comment 120 comments  |  21 recs  | 

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Though, to expand here, let me state clearly that I probably talk more than anyone else on here about ...

on-court stylistic fit, which is subjective. Thus, sometimes there are pairings of players who are productive individually, but don’t mesh due to having non-complementary, mismatched skill sets. An example of that is Brandon Roy and Andre Miller, who clash with each other in light of being ball-dominant guards without the ability to play effectively off the ball.

Beyond that, however, advanced stats — such as eFG%, TS%, ORB%, DRB%, AST%, TOV%, STL%, BLK%, USG%, et cetera — are more valuable than basic metrics like points per game or any other stat that’s isn’t per-minute or pace-adjusted. Now, with regards to so-called catch-all stats, metrics like PER, EWA, WARP, Win Shares, Win Shares Per 48, Wins Produced, and Wins Produced Per 48 should definitely be viewd with an understanding of their respective strengths and faults. Unlike with WAR in baseball — which is basically a bunch of countless one-on-one individual matchups masquerading under the guise of a team sport — there’s no single all-encompassing stat for basketball. In basketball, teammates do rely on one another for their own production — albeit only to an extent — so other factors like the abovementioned stylistic fit should be taken into account.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 22, 2010 5:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Here's an old comment of mine that fits perfectly here.
“Ironically, I also hate math.

After getting a B+ in Algebra II/Trig in 10th grade, I was pretty much done with math.

I took a (sic) Applications of Contemporary Math course in community college a few years ago, too, but that was relatively simple stuff that a junior high kid could do with ease. I had to pass that class to earn my Associate in Arts & Sciences Degree, though."

http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/4/25/853113/head-explosion#14747610

I feel math sucks, yes. Yet, being ignorant to the intricacies of the sport of basketball is worse to me.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 22, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

You can be aware of the intricacies of the sport of basketball

and still choose to ignore them for the sake of enjoying the game. That’s basically what I do.

For example, I like behind-the-back passes even though they’re statistically 39% more likely to lead to a turnover than a chest pass.

What? Did someone just yell "Hey Brace Face! Get Us a Center!"
That was totally uncalled for…. - Krang

by jamon51 on Oct 22, 2010 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

On one last note, I should add that I prefer to watch '90s-era basketball. Suffice it to say, that physical ...

style of play is missing from today’s game. Maybe I long for it mainly ‘cause I grew up during that time, but I miss it no matter the reason. Slow pace, rugged defense, and strong interior play on offense is what I want to see in the NBA. Alas, that’s not the nature of the game in 2010. Oh well, there’s nothing I can do about it.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 22, 2010 5:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

me too

i am bored of watching guards play 1 on 1 all game long.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

If I was the NBA Czar, then one of the first things I'd do is repeal the bullcrap rules that restrict ...

hand-checking on the perimeter. I’d also tell the officials to cool it on calling technical fouls — since often they’re overzealous with their whistles — plus, under my watch, the NBA League Office would tone it down when handing out fines and/or suspensions for owners/coaches/players speaking out, fighting during games, et cetera.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 22, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd get more team dancers if I was the Czar

I used to go by tominhawaii. My real name is still Tom.

by LukeBabbittFTW on Oct 22, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

less is more

don’t let Blazerfan1 hear you talkin’ like that

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Oct 22, 2010 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

i agree with everything you said in this comment

Michael Jordan is the Nicolas Batum of America
"I was like, 'Wow, we get a run.'-Felix Hernandez
Artis Gilmore for Hall of Fame
due to his low support around Bedge, Rudy Fernandez is temporarily my new favorite player
"The Portland Trailblazers are champions of the basketball world!"-Mike Breen, sometime in June, 2011

by thomasikehara on Oct 22, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

"Palming" or "carrying" or "traveling"

I think you can keep hand-checking out if you are stricter on calling carrying/palming/traveling. If a guard can’t palm the ball on the dribble, his handle is MUCH less secure and he has to pass it under pressure. This solves many of my aesthetic problems with today’s game. I’m not in favor of the old “wrestling in the post” days, though, or hand-to-hand combat on the perimeter…

by flightrisk on Oct 22, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Palming, carrying, and travelling

are all called too often in the NBA, even though it’s relaxed compared to lower levels of the sport. Give the guys some freedom and let them go. Who wants to hear a bunch of whistles?

What? Did someone just yell "Hey Brace Face! Get Us a Center!"
That was totally uncalled for…. - Krang

by jamon51 on Oct 22, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

A well done post

It’s my contention that the use of advanced statistics has taken the enjoyment of the games away from many of the fans.

This struck me as very similar to a position I’ve seen advocated in other fields. Paraphrased: A technical understanding of a subject detracts from the qualia of a subject. It’s often brought up in discussions in art and entertainment (and in this case basketball), but also in scientific fields.

Example: Does understanding Rayleigh scattering make a sunset less beautiful? I emphatically declare, “NO!” A technical understanding only enhances appreciation and this applies to basketball as well.

I use advanced statistics in basketball discussions both on and off Blazers’ Edge, but I also love the “feel” of watching a great game of basketball. I think they compliment each other. Did you know that Roy’s shot with .8 seconds left raised his TS% to 56% for the game*? Man that guy is amazing.

Of course, there are buzzkills out there who will use technical information specifically to undermine a person’s subjective feel of something (e.g. love is just chemical reactions in the brain), but I don’t think basketball statistics are an inherent obstacle to the enjoyment of the game. And as you said, people like to use statistics to provide a veneer of authenticity and objectivity to their biases; it’s only human nature ("individuals unwittingly select principles that happen to provide intellectual justification for preferred conclusions.")

However, we shouldn’t be against advanced statistics because some people use them as a crutch. We should understand their strengths and weaknesses while using them to enhance the game we all love.





*I totally made that up, but you get the idea

Can I get an Armon?

by Magnum on Oct 22, 2010 7:23 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Yup

Seems like no one appreciates wins anymore. Seems like the only thing many fans appreciate are dunks and stats. What about the miracle of a buzzer beater, or a thread the needle pass, or score after a timeout? I blame fantasy sports.

I used to go by tominhawaii. My real name is still Tom.

by LukeBabbittFTW on Oct 22, 2010 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

+92
I blame fantasy sports.

Harry Bosch: "Everybody counts....or nobody counts."

by 92wastheyear on Oct 22, 2010 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Seems like the only thing many fans appreciate are dunks and stats. What about the miracle of a buzzer beater, or a thread the needle pass, or score after a timeout?

Regular season wins for a contending team are over rated, unless you’re a coach. Playoff series wins are the currency of the NBA.

I prefer the pass that leads to the dunk to the finish itself. Last night, Camby threw a pretty dewdrop lob to LMA that led to an easy score. Aldridge received the attaboys but he did the easy lifting. The real source/impetus of the play was Marcus’ court vision, anticipation and willingness to take a calculated risk with the ball. (and all for one metric that will just show up as a plain old assist in the boxscore)

Eyes >>> stats. If all fans watch are the ESPN highlights, they’ll never discover the nuances of any sport.

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Oct 22, 2010 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

back in the olden days when the only way to enjoy the blazers from out of state was to watch a gamecast online. I never jumped out of my seat when someone’s assist number increased by one…however when rudy throws a pass between someone’s legs for a layup, that gets me excited.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

old school Blazer fans value team play

it’s a holdover from the Walton era, where back-door cuts were timed perfectly and met with a bounce pases leading to classic lay-ins

the younger kids appreciate Roy more, because they grew up (like Brandon) with a steady diet of watching MJ crossing over and dunking on ESPN

There’s no going back to the way it was, but every once in awhile I’ll see a play that reminds me of the unselfish style that won a championship back in ‘77. Those plays tend to stand out because they’re so rare

When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!

by two4larue on Oct 22, 2010 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

plain old assist?

maybe if you stop at the basic box score, but they keep track of where on the court assists generate points, assist %, turn over %, turn overs on passes. The stats say Camby is a pretty good passing big man. The stats support the eye test.

Can I get an Armon?

by Magnum on Oct 23, 2010 3:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

As it is, AST% and assist ratio both indicate Marcus Camby is a fine high-post facilitator.

AST% = (Assists X 100) / [{Minutes / (Team Minutes / 5) X Team Field Goals} – Field Goals]

Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) / {Field-Goal Attempts + (Free-Throw Attempts x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers}

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 23, 2010 4:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've never done fantasy basketball, but love APBRmetrics.

The only fantasy sport I do has been fantasy football over the past several years, as it’s the sport best suited for fantasy play and can provide a connection with friends who’ve began their careers and/or moved away.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 23, 2010 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

You are wrong
Does understanding Rayleigh scattering make a sunset less beautiful? I emphatically declare, "NO!" A technical understanding only enhances appreciation and this applies to basketball as well.

Someone with even a rudimentary understanding of sunsets knows that if there were more particulates in the air, the sunset would be more spectacular

Do you even watch sunsets?

Harry Bosch: "Everybody counts....or nobody counts."

by 92wastheyear on Oct 22, 2010 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

you like your stat

I like mine

and I think we know which one is better

Harry Bosch: "Everybody counts....or nobody counts."

by 92wastheyear on Oct 22, 2010 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Magnum just hates getting PWNED

I used to go by tominhawaii. My real name is still Tom.

by LukeBabbittFTW on Oct 22, 2010 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

There's a secret message, anyway

When the world knows Nico Batum as "The Inevitable", I'll be very happy with where he is as a player.

by ictoagsn on Oct 22, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well played

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Oct 24, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

SIMPSONS DID IT! SIMPSONS DID IT!!!

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Oct 23, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Love me some advanced stats.

MPOTCP>PGOTF

by jksnake99 on Oct 22, 2010 8:05 AM PDT reply actions  

I have a family member that is a retired chemical engineer. he passes the time compiling data on horse racing results. He is not really a fan of horse racing, he just needs easily acquired data for his study, and cheap beer at the track.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

more power to your family member.

MPOTCP>PGOTF

by jksnake99 on Oct 22, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

it is really impressive. His database is massive, and he does it for a hobby. I am not sure what his point is…I think he is trying to find trends to beat the system, but I am not sure. He doesn’t really care about gambling. Though he puts a dollar on the races, for some reason.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

cool;

I enjoy looking up all kinds of stats, and paying attention to predictions has helped me somewhat in fantasy hoops. Don’t maintain databases or anything. Stats have definetely increased my enjoyment of baseball games as they happen. I can’t say the same about basketball— they may even had decreased my enjoyment of the games slightly. I’m not quite sure. Certainly not by much though, and they provide me with endless entertainment between games.

MPOTCP>PGOTF

by jksnake99 on Oct 22, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno what it is, but whenever I hear stats about basketball, it just bothers me. I am fine with stats all over the place. I am in involved in marketing, engineering and tech for pete’s sake, and we use stats all the time. There just seems to be too many things out of anyone’s control in basketball. On top of that, there is a bunch of human nature when measuring basketball stats. I don’t think anyone is unbiased enough with perfect vision to be able to classify an event accurately, plus there are too many other things going on to make it accurate.

Stats can get close, and if everyone is being compared on a level playing field using the same bad numbers, then that is fair, I suppose…I just want to believe basketball is more about creativity than strategy, unlike baseball.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Basketball isn’t baseball, obviously, but if I didn’t feel like my favorite team was taking as much advantage of the numbers as possible (not at the expense of things like scouting), I’d be pretty annoyed and would want a new front office, that’s for sure.

MPOTCP>PGOTF

by jksnake99 on Oct 22, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think there's a good point here.

Statistics should be used in the correct way, there’s no doubting that. Simply shouting from the rooftops that Troy Murphy is awesome because of PER or WoW is lacking, I feel, and I’m an advanced stat fiend. I don’t trust the statistics absolutely, and I try my best to be aware of their specific weaknesses.

Having said that…

I think there is something to be said for looking at the data we have. I certainly want our management team to be inspecting data, because there are valuable truths you can learn, particularly in regard to your own players. Our eyes are biased. My eyes only see Nic’s good games, which is awesome since I’m a big Nic fanboy.

I don’t think everyone needs to love stats. But, for me (an admitted stat geek), statistics only increase my enjoyment of the sport. It’s a living data set with cool blocks and dunks! I’m going to continue following the PERs and TS%s and TRB%s and arguing for Greg’s per-minute stats, but I understand if some people want to kick back and watch.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 8:20 AM PDT reply actions  

This pretty much sums up how I feel, too.

I am a data geek. I love data of almost any kind. I like seeing overall trends and interesting results that don’t come to mind easily or aren’t obvious.

I really like understanding that a long 2-point shot is bad, and that LMA’s jump hook was a good attempt and move despite it bouncing out.

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Oct 25, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

BIG REC. Thank you for verbalizing what I have been trying to say for a long time.

Many people have forgotten there is an actual exciting game being played by humans….at what point will there be Survivor stat geeks?

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 9:02 AM PDT reply actions  

I understand that

I think it is great. Basketball will continue to provide a fun challenge to mathletes, since there are so many variables. However, it does nothing for me, because I can’t ever see it reaching a point where there is reasonable reliability in the numbers, unless there is an entity that starts measuring EVERYTHING that happens, not just playing with the numbers in the box score.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is why I don't trust advanced stats

link

It just plain old sounds made up. and Per 48 is silly since almost no one plays 48 minutes a game.

I used to go by tominhawaii. My real name is still Tom.

by LukeBabbittFTW on Oct 22, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

it don't matter

there are still too many variables. Teammate’s actions, coach’s and front office decisions, opposing players, injuries, illnesses, mentality, and role all effect player’s numbers.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

so isn't this an argument more for per-minute rather than aggregate

seeing as a player can control a lot more what he does rather than how much he plays?

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

i dunno, both Nic and Rudy don’t enjoy doing “the Portland”. Are they both really just corner 3 shooters?

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm confused as to how this relates per-minute to per-48.

And obviously it takes some watching to understand the context of the data. No one is disputing that at all.

But, we can look at usage and efficiency and get an idea of what a player’s role is. Then we watch the games and see if it matches up. Form conclusions from there. It’s an eyes, ears, and data approach.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

but his role is often times external to the player.

Like when bad teams “showcase” a player for a trade. They do everything they can to beef up his numbers.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

this is exactly my point.

Teams will give a player a ton of minutes to beef up his per-game totals. That’s why we can look at the per-minute stats and see if anything’s actually changed, or he just got more time because he’s being showcased

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

wait,

more minutes doesn’t equal higher stats…you need to add more touches, more plays designed to get him easy baskets, etc. Things outside the player’s control.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

His statistics would change there.

Usage would be a huge tip-off. And again, it’s eyes, ears, and number. Stat-heads aren’t so engrossed by their excel spreadsheets that they don’t understand what a showcase is. Situations matter, absolutely. That’s why we don’t say Nic is the most efficient player in the NBA. Given his role, he had a great opportunity to be efficient, but I still take Roy scoring over him.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

the owner could just decide he likes nic more, demand the coach swap nic and roy’s roles. Wouldn’t this influence the stats without there being a way to measure what the owner wants?

There are no “well, the owner is just donald sterling” variables.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would argue

stat nerds aren’t complete sycophants who stare at a spreadsheet and wait for it to tell them what to think.

There are two parts: data and interpretation.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have nothing against stat-nerds. I think they are awesome. I am glad they are enjoying what they are doing. I want them to continue to find a way to evaluate basketball in meaningful ways.

In my opinion, combining math (which I don’t hate, but I don’t love, I understand and live with) with something pleasurable, intense, exciting is less than ideal. It is boring. It reminds me of work, when I’d rather be reminded of basketball.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

It would make sense to me then.

Per 48 instantly makes the stat sound inflated. Especially when someone first discovers it and they compare someone’s Per 48 to another players average. I’ve seen a lot of Oden folks do that.

I used to go by tominhawaii. My real name is still Tom.

by LukeBabbittFTW on Oct 22, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd venture to argue that per-36 is more applicable than per-48, but per-minute stats ...

in general are undoubtedly more valuable than per-game stats. As it is, per-game stats are poorly weighted—especially when attempting to compare players to one another.

Also, pace-adjusted stats are necessary; otherwise, everyone would be slobbering over guys like Monta Ellis, as well as other players in up-tempo offenses that inflate their per-game stats due to the absurd amount of possessions.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 23, 2010 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

I hate the per 48 stuff. Irresponsible people through it out there when they compare a dude that plays limited minutes to a dude that plays 40+ minutes per game. They never admit that maybe there is a real reason why the limited minutes guy never plays!

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

C'mon now.

Are NBA coaches infallible? Nate played Juwan over Camby in the most important quarter of our season last year. He subbed out our bigs when they only had two fouls.

The thing is, NBA coaches are very biased. Per minute is just one component of things to look at, “how good is this player?”

Was Devin Brown better than Marcus Thornton last November? No! But he played more and accumulated more stats, so he’s better?

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

so that could mean the real reason is that the coach sucks.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

if that were true

then how we would bring that into our evaluation of the player? It might not be his fault that he’s not playing a lot of minutes.

Greg. Greg was fantastic per minute last year, but was held back by foul trouble. When referring to his talent level and impact on games, we refer to his per-minute stats but reference why we’re using per-minute. It makes no sense to bring injuries and foul trouble into the equation when we’re looking at his offensive/defensive talent. We can mention later why he isn’t playing big minutes, but minutes and minutes alone aren’t nuanced enough.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

but we don’t need a bunch of very well thought out formulas to tell us that greg is good, but has foul problems. It is obvious to everyone that watches him.

It is probably fun for you to calculate it. And that is fine, but I’d chose something else to do with my time.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe Blazer fans don't need it

but most people don’t watch every Blazer game. So, while your eyes tell you he’s good, some Wizard fan in Lincoln, Nebraska might’ve seen five seconds of a Blazer game and thought he sucked. Stats are a way to quantify the whole sample size, instead of what we see.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

See....that is the problem with stats

they don’t explain why a Wizards fan is in Lincoln, Nebraska

Harry Bosch: "Everybody counts....or nobody counts."

by 92wastheyear on Oct 22, 2010 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Or why anyone is a Wizards fan

What? Did someone just yell "Hey Brace Face! Get Us a Center!"
That was totally uncalled for…. - Krang

by jamon51 on Oct 22, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wizards are awesome

I mean have you even seen lord of the rings? They can fight demons made of fire all the way to the lake in the middle of the earth and then go on an acid trip and become even more powerful!

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Oct 24, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

but he might have sucked for a good reason during that game

perhaps a variable caused that. Currently stats just smooth over that.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

If Oden commits a turnover and that's all someone sees

then they’ll be biased by the five seconds they see. Stats don’t smooth over it, they include the turnover! It’s just an average. I don’t want to know that a guy makes a shot or commits a turnover, I want to know how often that event occurs.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

sure

that’s again where averages come in. Over the course of a year, those things generally average out. Particularly when you have stats that account for this, like the teams do.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

not really

is it greg’s fault for all of his turnovers if the post feeder sucks at getting him the ball in a position to score? No, now greg’s stats suffer because his PG sucks, or his PF is always too close to him to provide enough space.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

or he happens to play in a conference with a bunch of post-pesterers.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

82Games shows the reasons behind each turnover.

For Greg Oden last season, his turnovers included 16 ball-handling flubs, 13 offensive fouls, 3 bad passes, and 7 that were classified as other turnovers.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR19.HTM

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 22, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

what is a ball handling flub and what is other? Couldn’t the stat keeper miss that the defender pulled the chair out causing the flub?

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

A ball-handling turnover -- with "flub" being a ...

word I added there — is simply that. For other, I assume that includes stuff such as stepping out of bounds or perhaps holding the ball at the end of a 24-second shot clock violation. I’m not sure, though.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 22, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

probably includes having the ball stolen or lost while dribbling

You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.

by austinpwnz on Oct 26, 2010 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

I understand picking apart the flaws with so-called catch-all stats; however, per-minute ...

and pace-adjusted stats are necessary tools for effectively evaluating players. That, without a doubt, is why stats like ORB%, DRB%, AST%, TOV%, STL%, BLK%, USG%, and whatnot are of more value than poorly weighted per-game stats.

"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)

by AK1984 on Oct 22, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Don't be Afraid of the Stats

The basketbal statistic is undergoing an ongoing evolution. I think everyone can agree that nothing is perfect today.

But the stats we do talk about are, indeed, vastly superior to the traditional box score. It helps inform arguments about the Blazers pace and concepts of points-per-game as a reasonable measure.

In one sense, the advanced stats are most useful to people like KP and Cho. They allow those GMs to uncover talent that would otherwise go unnoticed (the whole concept of Moneyball).

From the fan’s perspective, statistics help inform the arguments. Perfect statistics would tell us if Sergio was better than Jack or if there is potential wrapped up in Bayless somewhere.

Statistics can also inform coaching. The NFL is famous for its coach’s reluctance to go for it on 4th down when the stats show, time and again, that they would be rewarded for it. Ditto Nate and his aversion to TOs. Statistics help inform arguments that Nate’s instincts against TOs are counterproductive relative to the gains (in dunks presumably) that would otherwise occur: the Steve Nash argument.

Statistics are an aspect of science. It’s about an objective measure to validate or refute subjective assumptions. They’re necessary; we need them as fans. That they’re (finally!) undergoing a (much needed!) evolution should be greeted with enthusiasm; not scorn.

Buck Williams for the hall of fame

by Phizbin on Oct 22, 2010 9:26 AM PDT reply actions  

hmmm.

Statistics are an aspect of science.

No, they are a branch of mathematics. Hard science does not employ statistics typically, at least not in the study of human systems (quantum mechanics is statistically based, biology uses statistics to track behavioral patterns.)

When the soft sciences started emulating quantitative science, there was a lot of controversy. Just because physicists and chemists had achieved great traction with the use of calculus, did not mean that it should be applied to every discipline.

Social sciences have embraced statistical analysis in an attempt to get the same credibility that comes with quantitative evidence.

They still have not achieved that credibility.

Look at economics. Over-emphasis on statistical empiricism at the expense of common sense has done great harm, as the recent financial meltdown demonstrates. These giant Wall St. firms had math departments who assured higher ups that based on the historical data, and the best theories formed by the data, that the housing market could not and would not drop by 20%. This allowed the banks to ramp up the leverage, which we all know resulted in the fiscal catastrophe of the last 2 years.

Or sociology. They have studies that quantitatively prove what causes happiness. Which sort of job, what junk food, what types of friends, what kind of butter etc. you need to be happy. Hogwash!

The fascination with statistical analysis is our modern day emperor’s new clothes parable. But, behind the scenes, people are using it to their advantage to get funding, to justify lunatic policies, to extend their profits.

In fact, that sunset does not look the same, because we are training our young minds not to see the sunset, but to think about the sunset in a deconstructive way. Rare is the person who can see a sunset with a poetic mind, while dissecting it with a scientist’s. With a statistical approach applied to human systems, even rarer, because humans become mere units and the significance of action and consequence for our lives are reduced to a cold quantifiability.

Brave New World by Aldous Huxley explored this well.

"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.

by Blazin' on Oct 22, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

exactly

I have seen people get swayed by numbers presented by sharp looking people. Anyone that knows anything can make whatever point they want to make using numbers.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

hahaha

"Your best?!?!! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and &^%@ the prom queen"

Super Rodgers Bros.

#52

by cloudydays on Oct 22, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

:)

i take that as a compliment.

"The only 'Advanced Metric' that matters is what you see with your eyes." -Timbo, Nov., 2009.

by Blazin' on Oct 22, 2010 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hard science employs statistics

Quantum mechanics as you said, but also thermodynamics, climate science, etc (chaotic systems in general).

Look at economics. Over-emphasis on statistical empiricism at the expense of common sense has done great harm, as the recent financial meltdown demonstrates.

Economics is founded in mathematics, not common sense. In point of fact, common sense often leads people away from the correct explanation (ex. the broken window fallacy). The financial meltdown wasn’t a failure of mathematics and statistical analysis, it was the result of greed and deregulation.

They have studies that quantitatively prove what causes happiness. Which sort of job, what junk food, what types of friends, what kind of butter etc. you need to be happy. Hogwash!

Uh no. They have studies that correlate certain behaviors and happiness, but they don’t prove anything nor do they intend to. The popular media is a large factor in this perception. I’ll allow this image to explain.

The fascination with statistical analysis is our modern day emperor’s new clothes parable. But, behind the scenes, people are using it to their advantage to get funding, to justify lunatic policies, to extend their profits.

Those types of people will use whatever techniques available to them to gain an advantage whenever possible. The problem isn’t statistical analysis it’s the people distorting it to serve their agenda. I have the complete opposite view you do here. I think more knowledge held by more people is a better way to overcome greed and corruption.

The appropriate use of statistics is fundamental to a thorough understanding of numerous subjects. They need to be understood not feared. The more people who understand the pros and cons of statistical analysis the less likely they are to be fooled by a talking head with a few numbers.

Can I get an Armon?

by Magnum on Oct 23, 2010 4:06 AM PDT up reply actions   3 recs

Brilliant post, Blazin'....... REC
Social sciences have embraced statistical analysis in an attempt to get the same credibility that comes with quantitative evidence.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Oct 23, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why do you have to go there
They have studies that quantitatively prove what causes happiness. Which sort of job, what junk food, what types of friends, what kind of butter etc. you need to be happy.

Really? Can you show me one study that isn’t an advertising campaign that claims anything close to this type of assumption? Others have pointed out how off your wording is, but it always drives me up the wall when people talk about the social sciences and how they aren’t a true science. Yes, things are very grey and difficult to pin down using just about any metric. But it is very difficult to study anything in that realm. Trying to quantify the human experience is indeed a fruitless task, but not using statistics would severely limit the capacity to construct a solid foundation of knowledge. In the end we are dealing with people, each of which have unique traits, patterns and experiences. I think most in the field recognize that.

With a statistical approach applied to human systems, even rarer, because humans become mere units and the significance of action and consequence for our lives are reduced to a cold quantifiability.
I think that is a biased view that you and some others like to place on social sciences. I think the practice is to establish sound correlations and quantify the findings, yet at the same time I don’t think many, if any at all, will encompase a life in terms of numbers. People who are drawn to the field are also not usually as cold and calculating as this statement would imply. I think there is a good balance and while the field is still in its infancy, is progressing in a very balanced manner.

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Oct 24, 2010 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also, I'm no expert on the financial crisis

but my understanding was that it wasn’t the guys crunching the numbers. They realized the potential for absolute disaster and warned of it. But losing the advantage that came with all of the risk that was involved wasn’t something that could be easily overcome in the competitive market. There were plenty of red flags coming from the economists, but the decision makers ultimately ignored them.

Again, I’m no economist and I could be pretty off there, but that’s what I’ve heard. Of course everyone wants to pass blame on this one so we may never really know the truth of it.

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Oct 24, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Should have searched before posting

Here’s what I was talking about. It’s a good read, but in particular look at the economists vs. Strategists.

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Oct 24, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like the historical look, even though I disagree with many of your conclusions

I doubt you can find any “stat head” who ever claimed just looking at statistics would replace watching a basketball game. Well, maybe Berri. But I doubt it. And I also don’t get how looking at statistics makes basketball less fun. I can enjoy watching Monta Ellis hit a shot even though I know he’s not as good overall as many people might think.

Statistics are not a way to replace watching a player in a game. But statistics watch EVERY game. That’s one of the big differences.

"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban

by Norsktroll on Oct 22, 2010 11:34 AM PDT reply actions  

There are fans that don’t wanna hear it. For example, lets say you just started dating a HOT girl. She is everything you hoped for. After a few days some random guy comes up and says, “hey you do know that she has a funky pinky toenail, right?”

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

RUDY GAY

"Your best?!?!! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and &^%@ the prom queen"

Super Rodgers Bros.

#52

by cloudydays on Oct 22, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

I guess it goes back to whether you want to root for Rudy Gay

knowing that he doesn’t help you win games, or would rather just root for the cool dunks and not notice the defense.

I’m sure there’s people on both sides of the coin.

by Cablinasian on Oct 22, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah, I am not saying that I am that person

but I can understand their point of view. I would probably notice Gay’s bad defense, and I’d be bummed.

by Name's Ash on Oct 22, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I would say you can get that on BE. It's not like this is ABPRMetric.com

Dave is not the biggest stats fan out there even though he uses them to some effect. Ben has become a bigger one with his connection to KP2, but it’s not like he is all over it all the time. He’s more like a beat reporter than John Hollinger.
And the only vaguely stats related post that consistently got rec’ed to the top are Jscotts predictions, and that is just one small aspect of statistics.

"Listening to the media only increases your odds of failing at whatever you are doing" - Mark Cuban

by Norsktroll on Oct 22, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Stats are a useful place to start conversations

and usually a horrible place to end them.

—Dave

by Dave on Oct 22, 2010 1:52 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

So are farts.

I used to go by tominhawaii. My real name is still Tom.

by LukeBabbittFTW on Oct 22, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

LOL

What? Did someone just yell "Hey Brace Face! Get Us a Center!"
That was totally uncalled for…. - Krang

by jamon51 on Oct 22, 2010 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Starting conversations from one side also creates interesting discussion.

As evidenced here.

"[S]ince men enjoyed very great leisure, they used it to pursue many kinds of commodities unknown to their fathers, and that was that first yoke they placed upon themselves without thinking about it, and the first source of evils the prepared for their descendants. For, besides continuing thus to soften body and mind, as these commodities had lost almost all their pleasantness through habit, and as they had at the same time degenerated into true needs, being deprived of them became much more cruel than possessing them was sweet; and people were unhappy to lose them without being happy to have them." -Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?

by T Darkstar on Oct 22, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thank you for the discussion.

It’s been a fun exercise for me to take one side and then hear the response on the other side. And that it has generated such a thoughtful response, that it has reminded me why I like Blazers’ Edge so much. It’s because of the posters who take the time to think about their position and present it well.

So, once again, thank you all for your responses.

"[S]ince men enjoyed very great leisure, they used it to pursue many kinds of commodities unknown to their fathers, and that was that first yoke they placed upon themselves without thinking about it, and the first source of evils the prepared for their descendants. For, besides continuing thus to soften body and mind, as these commodities had lost almost all their pleasantness through habit, and as they had at the same time degenerated into true needs, being deprived of them became much more cruel than possessing them was sweet; and people were unhappy to lose them without being happy to have them." -Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?

by T Darkstar on Oct 22, 2010 2:50 PM PDT reply actions  

cough....

um… Why a calm collected fan?

The Faith don't panic, the Faith freaks out, burns out small farms and villages in the name of the Faith.

by faith on Oct 23, 2010 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Nice post. And yes, I am one of those who advocated trading Brandon Roy and still think that's the winning move if the deal is right.

Now as for statistics and the sports, the reason that stats in baseball are FAR more important than those in basketball relates to the nature of the sports.

In baseball, the game is essentially a one-on-one battle between a single player, a batter, and a single player, a pitcher. And great pitching executed perfectly will defeat great hitting. Therefore there is an all-importance to creating favorable matchups — each pitcher’s career record against each batter is carefully tracked and tendencies studied.

Basketball is a wild scramble, played by 5 players going at 5 players simultaneously in a sport in which great offense is fully capable of defeating great defense, perfectly executed. There is a far greater place for random events. The statistics of the sport illuminate aspects of the game but are not predictive.

Anyway, I’m in agreement with the post. My reasons for wanting to ship Roy are subjective rather than objective: related to his competitive fire (or lack thereof).

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Oct 23, 2010 9:46 AM PDT reply actions  

It's relatively easy to power back for a couple games with the bright lights on, not so easy to be intense through an 82 game season...

Real champions, a la Kobe and Jordan and even the loathsome Kevin Garnett, have an intensity and an unwillingness to lose that drives their entire existences. I really don’t see any indication of this in Max Contract Roy and he’s a piece of gargantuan value in a trade.

What he brings to the table is replaceable.

"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal

by timbo on Oct 23, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

You take any stance

that is on the more controversial side of a hot button topic. That’s just how you roll.

It turns out I overestimated my apathy, but not enough to matter.

by einman77 on Oct 24, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Salary and Draft Position

Nice post. I think we’re often caught up in measuring players against how good they’re “supposed to be”, based on their salary and draft position. Neither of these are really within a player’s control. They represent outside judgments of potential.

Nic Batum was picked #25. What would we be saying if he was picked #3? Drifts on the court, no go-to move, not a scorer, etc. Instead, we have the unfiltered joy of watching this guy grow, because we’re free of expectation. For now, at least.

There’s some consternation from outsiders when we ooh and ahh over a rudimentary Oden post move or hard screen. As a fan, it’s fun watching a relatively unskilled big learn the ropes. Let that be. Picture that he was picked #10. That power and stratospheric rebounding numbers? How lucky are we that there’s a chance this guy might pan out and be a part of the team, toe ring or not.

by Engineering Problem on Oct 23, 2010 10:58 AM PDT reply actions  

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