Andre Miller and the Portland Trail Blazers
by Dave on Oct 14, 2010 10:15 PM PDT
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PrintThe rallying cry surrounding the 2010-11 Portland Trail Blazers has been simple and oft-repeated: Just wait until we get healthy! The hope behind the assertion is that this league hasn't seen what the Trail Blazers can do yet because of the (hopefully past) injuries that assailed the team last year. Along with that hope comes a tacit admission that the Trail Blazers themselves haven't seen what the Trail Blazers can do yet.
The number of times the projected best lineup of Andre Miller, Brandon Roy, Nicolas Batum, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Greg Oden both started and clicked flawlessly together last year was zero. The offense sputtered at the beginning of the season trying to integrate Oden. Just as momentum started to surge Oden went down. Then Roy went down as well and the field was left to Miller, Aldridge, and Jerryd Bayless only later joined by a returning Batum, healthy Rudy Fernandez, and newly-acquired Marcus Camby. Each combination did well enough in isolation, not only holding down the fort but making enough progress to top 50 wins and gain a playoff berth. The assumption has been that a bunch of different lineups clicking well enough would merge into one, dominant super-lineup. Even with pieces missing that hasn't been in evidence.
Miller is one of the main figures at the center of this evolving conundrum. He's a good player. Some consider him a great player. Even his detractors would put him somewhere close to that border. Talent and skill have not been an issue in Portland or anywhere else he's played. The question dogging him since the moment he arrived in the Rose City is fit.
As has been discussed ad nauseum, backcourt mate Brandon Roy might as well be a middle-aged woman shopping for jeans when it comes to point guards. The ones that fit at the top don't fit at the bottom. The ones that look good in front are a wreck from behind. The requirements for a perfectly-tailored, designer-brand pair are so specific that they'd wouldn't be affordable even if you could find them. Eventually you either make the best of an imperfect look or go scrounging in the closet for some sweats. Miller is the Blazers' attempt at the former. So far success is in the eye of the beholder.
On the heels of Roy's post-practice comments seeming to indicate that he should be the focus of the offense, the issue has been dissected yet again from multiple angles. Over at CBS Sports our own Ben Golliver looked at last year's play and this year's competition. He offered that Roy could not go it alone and intimated that Miller's performance would be a litmus test for the success of Roy's teammates. Equally impressive was this Fanpost from B.E. reader atomiccafe, breaking down Miller's aptitude compared to those of his NBA peers. His conclusion? Miller may be not be the best fit skill-wise but the Blazers will have a hard time finding better. These fields, particularly the skill-fit issue, have been well-plowed and I won't belabor them. (You can read them anywhere and we've addressed them before.) But the response to the discussion makes clear that a couple of other arguments remain less-tested and unsettled. I'd like to approach the matter from two angles under hot debate right now: role and what it means to be a "team".
Role
One of the concluding sentences of atomicafe's Fanpost reads:
So the question is, would you rather have a very limited player who can shoot, or a much higher quality offensive player who can't as your second option?
The trade-off suggested from the Blazers' point of view is giving up desirable skills in order to obtain a greater role. This is exactly the benefit Miller brings. He's a point guard with an offensive bent. From his rookie season he's traded on his scoring prowess. It's a part of his game that he's not been willing to dampen, at least not for long. With Miller you do get a bona fide scoring option, which is part of his attraction.
The problem from a role perspective is quickly evident considering the events we highlighted in Paragraph One: the Blazers are expecting their entire lineup healthy this season. Last year's injuries left Andre happily ensconced as the second option in most games, sometimes the first. Roy permanently kicks him out of the latter spot. Aldridge clearly trumps him as the second scorer. The great hope inherent in those returning players is that Oden will become a force down low and Batum will develop as an all-around scoring threat. Oden's game would ideally allow him to be the third scoring option outright and someone who touches the ball even on plays where he doesn't take the shot. That bumps Miller to no greater than fourth on the list. And the guy yet behind him has been receiving attention and accolades around the league for his potential.
Andre Miller did a fantastic job of bailing the Blazers out of a disastrous season last year. Portland spun triple cherries getting a player who could fill that second scoring role. As the team evolves that same quality is going to spin up lemon-single bar-cow pie. It's not a winning combination because they're trading needed skills for an advantage that they no longer need--that may be a detriment considering the lineup--when they're healthy. At this point the Blazers may be better off with that player with targeted skills who isn't their second option in the offense. At the very least you have to say that Miller's role versus his desires and ability is unsettled. It has been since he arrived, really.
What It Means to Be a Team
The harshest flashes of anger in response to Roy's comments about his own offensive role came from people who decried the loss of team emphasis in his individualistic-sounding comments. This is misplaced. Whether Roy can lead the Blazers to a title remains to be seen. Either way, he's a proven scorer, an All-NBA-level talent, and clearly the best player the Blazers have. Barring a trade for another team's disgruntled superstar (perhaps allowing us to debate Roy v. Wade) he'll remain the hub of the offense and the team as long as he wears the uniform. As such, his responsibility is to claim the spotlight and direct the show while everyone else falls in line.
NBA teams are not, and never have been, egalitarian entities. The 1976-77 Trail Blazers are heralded to this day as one of the most self-giving squads in history, defeating the star-laden 76'ers by dint of said teamwork. It's true that on any given play a shot could come from anywhere depending on where the defense fell apart. But there was a clear pecking order on that team. Bill Walton and Maurice Lucas were first, followed by Lionel Hollins. The other players were cast members from Gilligan's Island, absolutely necessary for the stars to play off of but locked into their roles. Bob Gross and Lloyd Neal and Dave Twardzik are remembered for all of eternity in these parts precisely because they deferred to the Big Three. Had they tried to take over one of those spots Bill Walton would have asked what they were smoking. Then Luke would have killed them. If that didn't solve the problem they would have been traded or the Blazers wouldn't have gone as far as they did.
Portland's other great teams, led by Clyde Drexler, had an even clearer order. Drexler was The Man, period. Porter was his amazing sidekick. Everybody else, no matter how talented, formed their games around Clyde. I remember commentators saying repeatedly that Jerome Kersey easily could have been a 20-point scorer were he not a part of this team. In a game I saw in person (I forget the opponent now) both Drexler and center Kevin Duckworth were unopposed on the break and Duck had the ball. Duck looked over at Clyde and clear as day asked if he could be the one to take the ball to the hole this time...not demanded or assumed, asked. Clyde nodded and only then did Duck go in for the dunk. With a small flick of the wrist the ball would have been in Drexler's hands immediately, neither questions nor moping permitted.
These were both amazing teams in every sense of the word. But "team" did not mean everyone had equal say, equal attempts, or even the full role to which their talents entitled them. Those teams prospered precisely because the players surrounding the stars conformed their games to the star's needs. Once that happened then the star could comfortably work in the other guys and take advantage of their talents. But if his hands weren't on the wheel nobody was getting anywhere. Elegantly worded in interviews or not, Brandon Roy is correct in expressing his desire for control and primacy in the offense. Any kind of struggle that threatens to prevent that harms this team and goes against the definition of team itself, at least as far as the NBA runs. If Miller and Roy aren't on the same page--and circumstantial evidence and backstage rumblings both indicate they may not be no matter how much they doth protest--then the situation must be addressed.
Returning to Ben's words, it is on Andre Miller to show his value to this team (emphasis on this team, which is in a different spot that last year's). He is neither a core member nor a possible bright spot in Portland's future. He is a hired gun. He is in the last guaranteed year of his contract. His talent is not in question. His benefit in this situation is. Unless his performance and the team's become seamless his role, at least as the team defines it, will remain unfilled despite his ability.
At this point the only sureties are that the end of this story has yet to be written and that the journey between here and there will be interesting.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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"He's a hired gun"
I wish he could shoot.
by 52therim on Oct 14, 2010 10:26 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Trade Miller So he can escape Roy's selfish a**
by Blazingatrail24 on Oct 14, 2010 11:08 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Roy might be seen as selfish to you,
but he takes responsibility for the performance of the team, and relishes the pressure of the last second, game deciding play. Roy’s ego goes w/ the territory. He’s the Alpha.
Regardless of your position, Old Man Dre has no power here. He must bend, fill in the cracks, and pick up whatever crumbs Roy tosses his way, because that’s life on Roy’s totem pole.
Hierarchy is what it is in the pride, and old animals are not consulted, but rather ostracized, when they’ve outlived their usefullness.
by damonrayhymer on Oct 15, 2010 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
In other words,
Roy is the man.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 15, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Hierarchy is what it is in the pride, and old animals are not consulted, but rather ostracized, when they’ve outlived their usefullness.
I don’t really understand the point of this. A great basketball team is always going to have more egos than can smoothly coexist. The key is to make every player feel that their individual interest is aligned with the team interest. With the Lakers, that involved getting Pau and Bynum involved early so they would be there (mentally) as secondary options in the late game, and would be focused defensively. With the Spurs, that always meant giving Parker the spotlight with the starting lineup, limiting Ginobili’s minutes but always sort of telling Ginobili that he was “the one.” With the Celtics, it almost destroyed the team, but it involved an incredibly delicate balancing act to convince Pierce of his continued importance as it became more and more obvious that Rondo was the best player on the team and needed the ball in his hands. Even if it’s not Dre, a team talented enough to win a championship is going to have a talented player who doesn’t feel he’s being utilized to the best of his abilities. That guy needs to be coddled and brought into the fold and told he’s important so he’s there at the critical juncture.
by atomiccafe on Oct 15, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree
And the comparison of players to animals who have outlived their usefulness is somewhat unsettling to me.
To be honest, I think Dave and some others are placing too much emphasis on hierarchy in explaining this situation, as if every conflict can be resolved by referring to the hierarchy table, seeing which person is higher and then telling the other person they need to suck it up. There are always going to be mutually beneficial solutions, as shown by your examples, and a simplistic hierarchical view pretty much takes those off the table by reducing things to a “player A wins, player B loses” dichotomy.
#52
I agree too
On offense, the objective is to score. If we go with more iso Roy, the defense can double team Roy or triple team Roy. If we look at past seasons, if he can’t get free he kicks it out with two seconds on the clock for a low percentage shot. The Blazers could improve their offense by looking for a high percentage shot every time down the court. If Roy is double teamed, he doesn’t have a high percentage shot, but someone else is open. If you move the ball early enough you get the high percentage shot. If the other Blazer players are making shots, the opposing teams can’t double Roy and he gets good looks, but this is only set up by developing other scoring options. The hierarchy idea doesn’t always work – you have to hit the open man. If Roy is doubled and LA is covered and Nic is open, the ball should go to Nic with enough time on the clock for him to get a good shot. Or, if Dre is open the ball should go to Dre. Too often in the past to years we have seen the Blazers run out the clock rather than develop a shot.
I like your point, but ....
I think you are drawing the wrong conclusion. The offense works with the right personnel on the court.
If Roy is double teamed, he doesn’t have a high percentage shot, but someone else is open. If you move the ball early enough you get the high percentage shot. If the other Blazer players are making shots, the opposing teams can’t double Roy and he gets good looks
That’s exactly what the Blazers are trying to do …….
…… unless you kick the ball to Miller, who’s only open because it is his defender leaving to go double Roy. He can’t make the outside shot, so the defenders recover and now we start the offense through Miller with the shot clock running down.
However, put a shooter in Miller’s spot and see who the defenders are going to leave open to double team Roy.
i dont really think this is about power
its about what is best for the team and even for Roy. the Trail Blazers dont exist to benefit Brandon Roy, Brandon Roy was hired by the Trail Blazers to give them a good chance to win games. Roy is absolutely our best player and should always be the main focus of our offense. however the Trail Blazers also hired Andre Miller to give themselves a better chance to win games. there has been resistance to what Miller brings to the table almost since the moment he was hired for what he can bring to the table. why bring him in if you aren’t going to see how his ADDITION works?
I'd still honk once!
That's an interesting point.
And one that makes the role of the GM, and his lieutenants, so vital, because Roy didn’t hire Andre. Roy was hired as the big cheese, max money, perennial all-star, and with this job comes the juice. Just ask Paul Westhead, Magic’s first coach.
If Roy wants to go back to how it was before Dre arrived, Cho had better get busy, and good money says he’s working on it.
I, personally, like Andre’s game (discounting that ugly shot). Wish it had worked out.
by damonrayhymer on Oct 15, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Roy didn’t hire Andre
but Brandon asked for veteran help after the 2009 playoffs.
Players play. Coaches coach. GMs tweak the roster. Know your role, Roy.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I remember the plea for help.
And I know everyone’s role, but big shots act like big shots, from time to time.
See: Paul Allen
See: Micheal Jordan
See: Magic Johnson
See: Jason Kidd
See: Pat Riley
These guys all generally get their way, and even in the face of bad pub, but life goes on, because they are who they are.
by damonrayhymer on Oct 15, 2010 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Good post. I appreciate the "Team" analysis most.
Otherwise it sounds like we’re ready to throw Miller under the bus.
by panfolk on Oct 14, 2010 10:27 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Outstanding post Dave
If Miller is not moved by the beginning of the season, I fully expect Nate and co, as well as the rest of the team, to work something out, whether it’s between Roy and Miller or Miller and the rest of the team. This year’s Blazers are brimming with too much potential, and Miller is too mature for there to be a repeat of last year’s fiasco. What’s more, Nate probably loves Miller enough to make sure things will work out.
THIS
is the correct way to frame the question this year, I think. And seriously, it’s not a huge knock on Andre if he isn’t. He is the hired gun here. He does have talent. Why should he sacrifice himself if he doesn’t see gain from it and if he’s been in the league for double-digit seasons and the guys he’s pandering to are whippersnappers? I hope that’s not the approach, but I can see Andre’s side if he’s only willing to move so far before he says, “Enough! You guys do know you signed ME—Andre freakin’ Miller—and not some other dude, right?”
—Dave
Why should he sacrifice himself if he doesn’t see gain from it and if he’s been in the league for double-digit seasons
It’s simple, really. Miller doesn’t have anything left to prove as an NBA player re: individual skills and productivity. He’s a scorer who’s not interested in compiling numbers to reach some milestone. Reputations and legacy in the league are formed by post season play and Andre has seen little of it, and much of that was outside his control, his team faced superior competition. The Blazers are his last, best chance of going somewhere he’s not gone before in 10+ years, to the second round of the playoffs and hopefully beyond.
If he complains too loudly he could be traded to a rebuilding team and stuck for the remainder of his career punching a time clock and mentoring youngsters. Roy mentioned back around media day that ‘Dre has focused on getting out of the first round. That means the two of them have spoken a little more than to say "mornin’" as they passed by on their way to the weight room.
It’s not like Andre has to score any points to be content on a basketball court, anymore. But if the team needs him to score 52 (like last season) well, he can get on an occasional roll—you never forget how to ride a bike, after all.
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I can only go by my experience and gut feeling in this matter
which may be quite different from Andre’s, so take it for what it’s worth.
I’m trying to imagine preaching a sermon that was so good it had men fainting in the aisles, women weeping at my feet, children hoisting me on their shoulders and cheering, it leading on SportsCenter, etc. and then having people come to me and say, “Great job, Dave, but it’s a big church and we see your role as mostly outside the pulpit except occasionally when Pastor Roy can’t make it or starts stuttering, then we’ll want another sermon just like that on demand. Until Pastor Roy recovers, that is. In the meantime please file these papers and content yourself with reading the Psalm every Sunday. It’s for the good of the church.” I’d probably do it “for the good of the church” because that’s the kind of guy I am. But I’d also be looking almost immediately for another church that let me do what I was good at doing.
—Dave
Maybe Roy and Andre can grabs beers when they are both out of the League and niether made it outta the 1st Round
But at least their Ego’s will be intact!
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 14, 2010 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions
That indeed is the worst-case scenario
I really don’t think it’ll come to that though. But I bet you either do see Andre leave or you hear reports of a Roy-Miller heart-to-heart at some point.
—Dave
Love to see Nate step up and be the leader of the team and DEMAND this for the sake of the TEAM
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I meant as the Coach leading the Team and Brandon falling in Line behind the coach
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Nate said he thought it was time that the players policed each other
heading into last offseason
Roy called the others to organize workouts at the PF while McMillian was still in Turkey, etc
Sarge is still around, but he’s not the old Sarge
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I dont mean on the floor yelling out plays everytime...I mean as a father figure to those players he has supposedly groomed and they respect him...Doesnt someone they supposedly respect have a voice?
Obviously not when he tells them to run before the defense sets on a rebound and Roy slows it down to run an iso play for himself
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:59 AM PDT up reply actions
there are only 30 churches where Rev Andre can preach to the choir
and of those 30, maybe 10 who are as good as the one where he’s currently on staff
and of those 10, there are head pastors in place who have tenure and the elders aren’t looking to increase the budget
The first Assembly of Charlotte may have a need for Rev Dre’s services, but he’d be heading back downtown to a storefront after living in a nice parsonage out in the country
have I extended the analogy so that it crosses your plane of experience?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
he was mad at the Nuggets for flipping him to Philly
and he still bears a grudge re: Denver
as far as I know, the only team he actually chose to move to was…Portland
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Aside from the situation at hand in Portland, Charlotte is the perfect spot for Andre.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Dre should know better.
It wasn’t that long ago when he was virtually unwanted in this league, and not much has changed, except his age. He has an option year, the team’s option. He had better control his ego, and fall in line, or he will be staring at his last headline moment, understanding that he is an expiring contract, and nothing more, playing out the string in Memphis, Charlotte, or Golden State.
Take a good look around the league. If he is traded this year, you could bet w/ a reasonable certainty that his next team would not pick up his option. Then, when the work stoppage finally ended. he would be vying for a minimum salary, as an emergency starter, anywhere he could find work.
by damonrayhymer on Oct 15, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I totally agree with you on all points but,
it didn’t seem as though there was a long list of teams clamoring for Andre’s services last summer. Perhaps teams want quickness on the perimeter? Maybe Andre has already been on half of the teams in the NBA?
I wonder which NBA teams Andre would be a better fit on. Is there a bubble team Andre could put over the top? Orlando (Yes)?
Andre is in no position to pull a Rudy. I guess that’s my point.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 15, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Orlando’s offense needs shooters worse than we do, I don’t think he would fit there
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
I see Orlando's main issue as distribution.
Every time I watch them they have a huge physical advantage in the post and fail to exploit it. Andre would get the ball to DH for multiple dunks, as well as throw the rock around the perimeter to shooters.
He WOULD be a significant upgrade over Nelson IMO.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 15, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
You should brush up on the different offensive schemes in the NBA and how certain ...
players can or can’t fit within them.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
So you're saying
coaches can’t change their schemes to fit their players’ strengths? As a Portland Trailblazer fan, I’m flummoxed by this assertion.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 15, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
In Orlando, there's no reason to mess with success.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Anyway, Nelson is just better, and actually fits their championship window (aka Dwight's CW).
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Andre Miller couldn't function in Stan Van Gundy's 4-outside/1-inside spread motion offense.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
He was definitely flexible enough to adapt the way he played last year to fit more of our style
ANY role? Everyone has their limitations. Dre isn’t all of a sudden going to develop a 3 point shot. But he’s savvy enough and understands enough of the game to change into a strictly assist-based PG if needed, I think. But it really depends on what we need right? We’ll have to see what they cook up in practice over the next week.
Maybe
In the end, I guess we’ll just have to wait a few weeks to see. These next few weeks will be them working out the kinks in camp (hopefully).
This is my hope
We need to see a nice run in these last pre-season games. Two are against Golden State so the offense should look great so I guess that’s not the final story even if the nice run happens. But if we see the team unable to score consistently even in those games I’m going to be officially scratching my head about the beginning of the season.
—Dave
Amazing post.
I love this part.
Duck looked over at Clyde and clear as day asked if he could be the one to take the ball to the hole this time…not demanded or assumed, asked. Clyde nodded and only then did Duck go in for the dunk. With a small flick of the wrist the ball would have been in Drexler’s hands immediately, neither questions nor moping permitted.
by Nick Van Excellent on Oct 14, 2010 10:32 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
We all know Brandon is that guy
We know that Brandon should have the ball by far the most.
The offense tends to run that way already.
Others may not be in a position to fully utilize their talents, I can buy that reasoning, but that does not mean their talents should be completely ignored.
As you indicate, once you have your hands on the wheel, the other guys are integrated in. Roy has had his hands on the wheel for quite some time now, the other s are not really being integrated in as yet…That is where we are at in the process.
I want my star demanding the ball, he should, but he also needs to be cognizant of how to maximize the talent around him even if that talent is confined to limited rolls.
I still think the Roy vs Miller thing will work itself out, I am just concerned that a lack of attention to the other roles could prove our downfall. (continued FBPs and stand around and watch plays and rollers never rolling)
I have seen evidence where where is firmly ensconced as the guy. Rightfully so. I have seen no evidence of "Once that happened then the star could comfortably work in the other guys and take advantage of their talents. "
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
by PDXBuckeye on Oct 14, 2010 10:33 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree
But I’m not ready to pass that final judgment on Roy yet because early on he was too young to know squat (and had no real equal-level vets to show him the ropes the way, for instance, Charles Barkley had with Dr. J) and because since he’s gotten closer to maturity either he or said teammates have been injured. Give me a couple seasons of consistency and lets see where Roy ends up. I’ll be disappointed if he doesn’t turn out to be a huge asset to his teammates but I’ll be prepared to admit it. The only thing we know right now, though, is that without Roy this team isn’t nearly the same and isn’t going anywhere.
—Dave
The injuries last season were brutal for the process
and working Greg in will mean breaking the Roy model to some extent for a while just to get guys used to the inside out play that will make him effective. They were just getting that rolling when his injury hit last season as you pointed out.
"Oh Yeah!" ~ Kool Aid Man
Keep this in mind too
Clyde scored 27 per game in ‘87-’88 and ‘88-’89 before he finally pulled back a tad and everyone else became the players we remember them as. He didn’t emerge as fully-formed Clyde. It was a process.
—Dave
Porter wasn't nailing many 3 pointers early in his career, either
it took 2 summers of hard work in the gym with Petrie before Terry was a confident threat behind the arc
Which makes it kind of silly for anyone to write off Jerryd Bayless, who’s younger than TP was and has played fewer minutes in his NBA career than Porter did in his second season
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
And maybe that's where the real issue lies...
I’m pretty sure Roy and Miller will work something out with the coaches provided Miller isn’t traded. They did manage to get things going last year. But what about Lamarcus and Batum and eventually Oden? Can we get our offense to flow well enough as to incorporate them, or will their talents go to waste? Can we do that with Roy running the offense? Can we do that with Miller running the offense? etc.
And by the way
thank you to everyone who has commented so far (roughly above this line). This feels like the conversation (but in substance and style) that we’ve been needing to have. And I’m not just saying that because of the “good post” subject lines. I mean there’s something to the comments and people are feeding and expanding on them to figure stuff out together.
—Dave
Is part of the problem...
That many reasonable observers have the opinion that we haven’t really seen this group play together? And many reasonable people believe we’ve seen all we need to see? While both positions are reasonable, it seems obvious which of these camps B Roy is in.
by 52therim on Oct 15, 2010 12:19 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I really think the culpability of the coaches
is by far the most understated part of this drama. In the end, it’s their job to set up schemes to utilize both players and the question seems to be constantly punted to Roy to explain what he thinks is best. And yet, Nate has been basically abdicating this responsibility by claiming that we don’t need to change anything because the offense was fine the year before while ignoring the fact that Blake and Miller could not be two more different players.
I feel for Brandon. While I don’t necessarily agree with his apparent position as thinking we need even more iso-ing up, I don’t think he’s misguided in thinking he needs more shots. At the same time, it’s not really his job to figure out how to make that happen, and yet people are constantly asking him about it. It’s a tough situation to be in.
#52
by Royster on Oct 15, 2010 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think you have an interesting, if not critical point, as well
If this whole thing fails, shouldn’t the coaches be held responsible as well? Put Roy and Andre under Popovich and I bet none of this “drama” happens. Hell, Pop has Manu Ginobli, aka mini-Kobe (imo) coming off the freaking bench. That’s a coach that knows how to get his players to play as a TEAM. We need some of that, as good of a job Nate has done so far.
When Nate tried to bring Dre off the bench (to spread some of the ball handling duties around) ....
….this place went bonkers and cliques formed and Andre revolted
Harry Bosch: "Everybody counts....or nobody counts."
by 92wastheyear on Oct 15, 2010 7:02 AM PDT up reply actions
that's how I remember it too...
Maybe the idea is that a great coach has great mind control ability to influence his players into accepting uncomfortable or lesser roles on the team for the greater good. I’m skeptical though, because while I’m sure some coaches will coax concessions from players at times, and set up a team culture where this is likely to happen, I think the key determinant is usually the player himself. It’s a question of whether the guy chooses to accept. Last season, Miller didn’t seem to until around midseason, and even then after he mostly got his way.
A lot of this is on Nate McMillan.
Portland would be way improved with Mike Fratello installing the Hawk offense — which he learned from the legendary Hubie Brown 30 years ago — and making the players play staunch man-to-man defense. The down-tempo, slow-paced style of play would also stay intact, which is a positive when Brandon Roy and Greg Oden are the two franchise cornerstones.
And yes, Fratello wants to coach: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/hornets/2010-05-05-fratello_N.htm There are plenty of former underlings of his who could assist him, too, such as maybe poaching Brian Hill from the downtrodden Detroit Pistons and plucking Eric Musselman from the D-League’s Reno Bighorns.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
The assumption is that Nate has this last year to prove he deserves to stay
I wonder what it would take to replace him mid-season. Not knowing Cho very well, it’s hard to say, but it would be very telling if he cut Nate around new years, if we have a shaky start.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions
It's our assumption
I have no idea what the front office thinks. I’d sure like to know, but if I were Cho, I’d keep my cards close to the vest, too.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I feel as if there's like 0.1% that Nate McMillan is fired mid-season.
It’s be too much of a mess.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
by AK1984 on Oct 15, 2010 12:44 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't expect it
I think we’d have to be doing pretty poorly. We’re obviously not a rebuilding team, and it would probably hurt us short term. Not something that would be good for us.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think replacing him mid-season would work well unless we were below .500 and healthy at that point
Because there is a short list of coaches who would make us noticeably better, and it’s unlikely they would hop on midseason. If we go a different direction at the end of the season, it should be for a proven veteran coach with the experience and credibility to gain the players’ respect from day 1
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Rich isn't firing Nate
unless he gets a priority call from the yacht
McMillian is safe until May. His fate is tied to playoff results
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
As does Mike Woodson, who's actually the best comparison to Nate McMillan.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
McMillian is Mr. Sonic
He’d have to commit career-ocide before Paul and the Vulcans can him during the regular season. Even KP made it until draft day
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I disagree...Once Greg is back ( if ever ) the amount of time Roy should have the ball should be minimal
1, Look to Fast Break
2. Pass Inside
3. If doubled pass to a cutter ( Nic/Roy/Batum)
4. Pass To LaM for a 14ft Jumper
Looks like I just made Nate an 11th Play for his new playbook 2 weeks into Preseason…PWNED!
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 14, 2010 11:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice line...
Andre Miller did a fantastic job of bailing the Blazers out of a disastrous season last year. Portland spun triple cherries getting a player who could fill that second scoring role.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
yes, but
Andre wasn’t signed n July 2009 to be Portland’s second scoring option, it just worked out that way last winter. So the Blazers were lucky, and yet the real reason Miller was acquired was only realized for a couple of months. It was also the reason why Hedo was the team’s #1 FA target during that offseason: to help integrate Oden into the offense.
Of slightly less importance was to provide a extra playmaking option, so the team would be more difficult to defend in the post season. Unfortunately, MIller had to serve as Portland’s the main backcourt scoring option against the Suns (31 points in the game 1 surprise victory) which forced Gentry to focus Phoenix’ defense on stopping #24 from posting and penetrating
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I dont have the stats but I will bet $20 that Andre was more efficient in the paint than LaMarcus
And Including free throws scored the 2nd or 3rd most in the paint of all the Blazers.
They say they need an inside prescence…Andre backing down the point guards and feeding to bigs or passing out or his fadeaway jumper that we have not seen from Roy since his rookie year seems on paper to be a good fit.
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 14, 2010 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Mentally this team needs Phil Jackson to send them their Summer books
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 14, 2010 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I am going to use this idea and post an article on a new rival blog about it
BEFORE the weekend.
MUAHAHAHAHAHArtimer
#52
Don't make that bet.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR4.HTM
http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR13.HTM
Andre Miller was more efficient than LMA on regular close-range shots, although when you account for dunks and tip-ins inside LMA tops Miller overall.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
well, there is a 9 inch height advantage for #12, not to mention standing reach
I’d just like to see the team do one simple thing: recognize a mismatch, and get the ball to the player who has it, then get out of his way
then, when the defense scrambles, make a couple of smart interior passes for a dunk
is that too much to ask?
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
would love to see this as well
are we one of the only playoff teams that can’t figure this out consistently?
I'll take your $20
Miller shot an eFG% of .601 inside; LMA shot .643 eFG% AND was more productive (6.4 points inside vs. Miller’s 5.1).
LMA loses immense efficiency when his game goes outside – but Miller loses even more (and shoots 61% of his shots outside vs. 64% for LMA).
82games.com
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions
If you combine everything, LMA beats Andre Miller at TS% by 0.5%.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Maybe atomiccafe needs to chart this vs. minutes played for the year
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
that wouldn't save your $20
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Then I'll make sure to buy 2 extra tickets on your behalf to this years BlazersEdge send the kids night if you are right
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions
:)
rates are independent of minutes played….
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I know I could look it up easily as I often do but I'm positive watching the games that Andre went to the line more than LmA even after only starting after January
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions
you would be correct
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
You're right, but you've only addressed part of a bigger situation.
Yes, a clear pecking order exists, and it should place Roy at the top. That I agree with. But you failed to address the offensive system in which Roy and everyone operates within. We originally signed Miller, as I believe, to make his teammates better by making plays, passing, feeding bigs – especially Greg – down low, and scoring when the need arises. Now there’s talk coming from Roy, and perhaps from Nate as well, about a heavier emphasis being placed on isolation sets for Roy. The differences among offensive schemes is the much greater issue than who brings the ball up and first initiates the offense. That job should squarely fall to Miller. That’s his role. That’s what he does. That’s what he’s done his entire career, despite the fact that he scores as well. And that’s what I saw him do last season without issue. Once the offense is initiated, Roy should see the greatest percentage of touches. But it is a disservice to Roy, Miller, and the rest of the team to load up on isolation sets. And that’s why I think the culminating paragraph in your post misses the mark. It’s not up to Miller to show his value to the team. He’s a proven commodity. We know exactly what he does. It’s up to Roy, Nate, and the rest of the team (Miller included) to show each other than they can sacrifice comfort (not necessarily touches) for greater long-term success against opponents who would most prefer to deal with isos. They’re perhaps the most predictable and defendable plays in the game, no matter how potent a scorer is.
by ParticleAccelerator on Oct 14, 2010 10:43 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
Do you think Roy can be comfortable getting his touches in a faster situation like Dre runs?
That’s the question that bothers me. I’ll say it: I don’t like watching Roy in iso sets. It bores me half the time and I much prefer people like Miller who get the lead out.
by panfolk on Oct 14, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Bo-ring!!!
I can’t stand it when Roy dribbles out the clock while the rest of the team shifts weight from foot to foot, waiting for him to do something. It’s a team sport, danggit. Cleveland ran mostly ISO sets last season with the best player in the league and look where that got them.
Stealth > Wealth
That may prove true
As with the “can Roy integrate teammates” question above I want to see a full roster running plays—iso or not—before I pass final judgment. But even if what you say proves 100% true at least we’ll have answers. Andre will have shown that his value to this team is negligible. (Note that this does not mean his value overall is…emphasis on “to this team”.) The Blazers will then need a different point guard. But even more likely than that if the whole system fails is that after this season the Blazers will have a new coach and we won’t have to worry about this issue, or at least not in the same form.
—Dave
You've made a great point.
All of us fans simply need to see some games with CONSISTENT lineups. We’re passing a lot of speculation which may or may not be applicable to a healthy roster. That said, I’ve thought of another question, which in part I am posing to myself. How good of a play maker is Roy really? Pritchard signed Miller because it made decent sense and there wasn’t a huge risk, especially given the money. But was there any thought among him, staff, or the organization that Roy’s play making is at a level that needs supplementation? If it is good enough, maybe it is time to let Roy essentially play PG. I’d sure like to see him run the pick-n-roll with Greg.
by ParticleAccelerator on Oct 14, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Another question which will be tested
especially as Oden returns. The Blazers will need some synergy between Roy and the rest of the roster even on those iso sets and Miller can’t be the only guy feeding Greg if he posts. Mark this down as something to evaluate at mid-season.
—Dave
One thing beyond health,
is that our best players are very young and they’ve had to learn along with Roy. Roy will improve and he will bring LMA and Batum and others with him. I just want variety in our offense.
Miller can’t be the only guy feeding Greg if he posts
A lot of players can feed Oden the ball when he posts, he’s a big target. But few are as adept as Miller at connecting on the risky lob pass when Greg is fronted. Or seeing the small crack in the defense and threading the needle with a pass that leads to a dunk and free throws. These are things that can’t be taught during a walk through, it takes court vision, anticipation, years of trial and error and confidence gained from experience. Camby has it, Rudy has some of it but with a bit too much bravado. Besides these 3 the Blazers are just an OK passing team. Miller makes them much better in this area, as well as in transition
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
exactly
I guess if he makes it his business to build Roy’s confidence for the sake of the church than maybe in turn people can appreciate, benefit from, and learn from his passing prowess!
Yes
What many people seem to be concerned about is less about Roy vs. Miller in terms of a pecking order, and more alarm about Roy being unwilling to adjust to different offensive sets outside of his comfort zone.
If Miller’s not the right point guard, then so be it. The bigger concern may not be if Roy ever gets his custom-fitted pair of designer jeans allowing him to feel right, and more of what happens when a more formal event comes along where it’s not the right choice to wear jeans at all. (insert panic here!). You know, say a formal ballroom dance like the playoffs, or an opponent that wants to go out and run a marathon, leaving you totally at a disadvantage in your very comfortable jeans. What then? It’s a fashion and basketball disaster, that’s what!
Okay, so this mixed metaphor doesn’t help anything. But I think the simmering unease has much more to do with thoughts about Roy and a potential ceiling to what the Blazers can achieve without more flexibility and willingness to progress from the star player— or a willingness to adapt to the idea of a fellow star-level offensive weapon, even if nobody is fooling themselves that Andre Miller is that player.
Ben’s article spoke to the idea of needing to compete with “multi-star” teams and the challenges of rising to the top. The concern goes beyond Roy being faulted for being the player he is, but has everything to do with the notion of “team” that Dave brings up.
by HowlinJoeWolf on Oct 14, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
willingness to adapt to the idea of a fellow star-level offensive weapon
If the Blazers spin triple bar and hit the CP3 jackpot we’ll have fun finding out. Even if it’s not Paul, it seems likely that at some point in the future Roy’s going to have to share the rock with another volume shooter, whether it’s LMA, Oden, or one of Rich Cho’s missing pieces
I consider Andre Miller to be a practice lap for Brandon, and he’s trying to spit the bit
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
good stuff
I just don’t get Roy. Is he spoiled,or just plain stupid. Probably both.
However, I would not be surprised if Nate and him have daily conversations about the direction of this team. This is a love affair, no question about it…they are each others salvation and continue to hold the rest of the team hostage.
[Good defense "releases" your offense]
Late accolade
But finally someone in here has got it right…Roy and Nate are the most influential people that will determine the success of this franchise. They have been so un-flexible that they have handcuffed this team into limited options on getting to the next level.
I’ll go as far to say that both Nate and Roy are holding this team hostage. Roy (with the help of Nate) has put himself on a level with Dwayne Wade…he’s not even close. Roy has not matured at all since he came into this league. He continues to rest on his laurels and that is always a bad sign to progression and getting better. If it’s iso’s Roy needs to live on to be a successful player, then he will never be more than he is right now. (often injured, worn out, and not enough energy to play defense) Lets have a brain check , OK Roy?
For some reason Roy has never checked in to the “team” hotel. I find this not only annoying but quite puzzling. I had no idea that he would have a commitment based on how many times he touches the ball. Perhaps it is the only way he feels he can perform his best. If that is the case then we should take a closer look at who will lead us to the next level.
I will take another step and say this ; hearts and minds. This Roy and Nate love affair for style, is continued sad news and raises more doubt than belief for this team.
This should not be about Andre Miller…he is an 11 year veteran and you simply can’t reinvent him. He compliments the “team” atmosphere that I hope we are looking for. Roy needs his teammates to accommodate him and his and Nate’s (slowest of the slow) style of play.
Portland ranks 30th (last) in the NBA for ’pace". How foolish is that for a youthful team?
[Good defense "releases" your offense]
by WyEast on Oct 15, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly and here's proof
1 . In the playoffs the games we won against the Suns were the ones Roy didn’t play.
2. Against the Rockets Ron Artest said that Roy was the best player he’s ever played against. Then Roy went out and ball-hogged us out of the playoffs against an inferior team .
Roy lost a mind game to Ron Artest! Ouchies.
I can only hope that Roy is bluffing when he says he wants more ISOs for himself. That would be brilliant. I suspect however it’s more likely that he is a megalomaniac.
The analogy of
the middle aged woman shopping for jeans is hilarious. However, it should be all woman shopping for jeans. I know, having a wife and a daughter. Oh, and then there’s shoes and purses.
Anyway, don’t you think a high BBIQ guy like Dre can adjust to whatever role he needs to play? That would be feeding BROY, LMA, and GO. If one of them get’s hot, just keep feeding them. If your a PG with shooters (ducks on the floor) it’s an easy game. Bring the ball up court, pass the ball to a shooter or a post up player, and let them go to work. When and if everyone is healthy, he can truly move into that true PG mode.
Except if he's being asked to play a role that just isn't him
John Wayne as Ghengis Khan. Nothing wrong with the actor. Nothing wrong with the subject. Dis…as…ter in practice. You have to get Miller to be at least a little Miller-esque. If you’re looking for Steve Blake Part 2 you’re beyond Miller’s ability (and I’m sure desire) to adjust.
—Dave
this is very important, I think
we don’t want or need Miller to change per se – just take a back seat in general and be ready to apply his style when the matchups dictate or opportunities arise.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 14, 2010 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I prefer to pretend that movie never came out. Sooooo painful to watch
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
AND it killed almost everyone who made it
Shooting where nuclear tests were done, and then bringing that same dirt and rocks back to the studio… man.
Such a bigger disaster than any other movie, ever.
M—
#52
I didn't know this part
That’s CRAZY. Thanks for sharing
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
The eccentric billiaonaire
alone in his room screening this fiasco night after night. In this case Howard Hughes not Paul Allen.
by Jacksonville on Oct 15, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Trade Miller
He’s just a hired gun, and we need to get our pg of the future. The pg we are going to try and make long runs into the playoffs with. I know it’s easier to say “trade --” than it is to actually make a trade, but I do think Cho is trying to trade Miller.
That aside, we do need to change our offense. Well Dave’s last comment says what I was trying to type better than I could.
by desperationshot on Oct 14, 2010 10:54 PM PDT reply actions
Unfortunately, Miller’s value will be much higher next summer as a mini-Dampier contract than it is right now
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
It's a team option so February would be the time for " The Flaming Bag Pass"
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:43 AM PDT up reply actions
But he's not a true expiring contract
Teams could trade for him next offseason and waive him immediately after without having to pay him for a half season
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
clarification, sorry
It’s not a team option, it’s just an unguaranteed year. So there’s a much later deadline after which he can be waived. Team options must be decided on by the start of the free agency period, where an unguaranteed player can be waived much later in the summer with no financial consequences. I’d need Storyteller here to explain the rules precisely, but this is close enough
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Who would you target?
I can’t think of many viable upgrades at the point at this point for a variety of reasons – unfeasible trades, huge contracts, age, etc. There’s always the draft, but the Blazers are trying to contend.
by ParticleAccelerator on Oct 14, 2010 10:57 PM PDT reply actions
This is why I think you've seen the famous Cho silence
My semi-informed guess is that behind the scenes trades are being proposed/floated but when it comes to practical options there aren’t any palatable ones right now.
—Dave
Cho is going to craft a golem out of clay, breathe life into him, and sign it to a minimum level contract.
It will look kind of like a slack-jawed Steve Blake. But with even less lateral movement.
The silence is just because he’s working on it.
by HowlinJoeWolf on Oct 14, 2010 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
If looking to solve this quagmire in the 2011 NBA Draft, then target Nolan Smith as a late first-rounder.
Meanwhile, though, that isn’t a practical way to handle this situation, as it doesn’t fix things in the meantime. As it is, I say push for a three-way trade involving Charlotte and Washington. Andre Miller goes to Charlotte to start at a position of need there in point guard, Boris Diaw heads off to Washington to start at a position of need there in small forward, and Kirk Hinrich comes to Portland as a floor spreading, defensive-minded off guard to complement Brandon Roy. If a throw-in or two are necessary to get Charlotte and/or Washington to sign off on the deal, then the draft rights to foreign prospects such as Joel Freeland and/or Victor Claver can be added as filler. Oh, and with regards to those trite platitudes about culture and junk that the previous GM spewed forth back in the day, I don’t care one iota if Hinrich is an alleged alcoholic or anything of that nature, for the dude can ball and that’s what matters.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
why Nolan Smith?
I’m not following the movements in college ball yet, so please enlighten me.
by premthegrem on Oct 14, 2010 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's a scouting report on Nolan Smith.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nolan-Smith-1118/
More than anything, I see him as a replacement for Jerryd Bayless.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Kid does look interesting,
but I am in AJ’s camp. He has a teardrop floater, stop and pop, slashing the lane, heady floor general skills, and defensive acumen. All he’s lacking is a killer outside shot.
Smith must have an outstanding wingspan to height ratio
to get AK’s attention
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly the type of trade ....
that needs to be made. Well put AK1984.
Count me in on the AJ bandwagon.
I see tremendous potential in his game, in virtually every aspect except the 3-ball which needs a lot of work
by premthegrem on Oct 15, 2010 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions
3-ball which needs a lot of work
Watching him shoot with Andre on Casey’s PF video last week, it looks like Johnson brings the ball back over his head a little too far, and then has to exert extra effort to squeeze the shot off towards the rim. Decent arc, but his accuracy isn’t there and it won’t get better as he tires during extended PT
Townsend’s gone, but someone will need to work with Armon on mechanics, like they did with Bayless the last 2 years
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
If Paul Allen wants to find a shooting coach with Seattle ties, George Irvine must ...
be out there doing something.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Okay, here's a recent article on him.
http://www.seattlepi.com/cbasketball/344082_where19.html
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Thanks for the link.
Why do you feel he can be better than Bayless? If anything, he seems to be a Jerryd Bayless clone. He can score, he can awkwardly shoot the 3, and last season he had 3apg playing 35 minutes a game. Based on my admittedly superficial look at his profile, he does not strike me as a great pg prospect.
by premthegrem on Oct 15, 2010 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions
The major difference is he's a better player off the ball, is much more lower usage than ...
CP3, Billups, Parker
anything less wouldn’t be an upgrade, as atomiccafe’s fun graphs illustrated well
Tony might not be the best stylistic fit, but I’ll take a former final’s MVP in May/June anytime I can get one. Even if he’s a high-usage PG who a low-percentage shooter past 16-17 feet
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
so does everyone else, including Brandon
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
In fairness
I feel plenty of PGs could win finals mvp if they had the luxury of being guarded by Boobie Gibson for 30 mpg
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
atomiccafe's graphs showed Bayless to be right there with Parker.
Maybe this is an “addition by subtraction” situation, a la Martell and Outlaw.
The question that’s been burning in the back of my mind lately is which is the superior back-court tandem…
Roy/Miller?
Roy/Bayless?
or
Roy/Mathews?
Miller has his shortcomings, but we really haven’t seen him play as our starting PG with a healthy roster. If he starts connecting on alley-oops with regularity, that could speed up our offense substantially and put a stop to the excessive double-teaming that our opponents get away with.
I’ve long been a Bayless Believer, and if he continues the trend he was on after the all star break (where has ULC been?) this debate is over. Only time will tell.
Mathews is killing it out there. I’m very curious to see how the team flows when Wesley is putting in his stretches at PG. If it goes well, the team might be able to put Bayless in the backup SG role where he would for a dynamic duo with Armon Johnson. This would be ideal.
Stealth > Wealth
Remember that Parker had his worst year by some distance last year. I like Bayless, but Parker is still the better player and more proven commodity at this point.
You had me for a bit
But Armon should not be getting run on a good team (yet). I’m all for starting Roy/Matthews, but why not bring Bayless off the bench as part of a 3-guard rotation with those guys?
Great post Dave. Since hearing Roy's comments yesterday I haven't been able to reconcile a clear opinion about them.
On one hand it’s good to hear the star of the team say he wants to run the show. On the other hand it seemed like he could be making a move in spite of his coaches and teammates interests. This post helped me with perspective, something that has been a bit tenuous ’round these parts recently! Thanks mang!
I'm a Greg Oden honk, yeah.
Even when I was still a Sonic fan, I liked Oden more than Kevin Durant.
by AK1984 on Jun 12, 2010 12:20 AM PDT
by Tyler Durrden on Oct 14, 2010 11:03 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Things I like about Dre
Durable,can pound small pg’s in the post and a good passer
things I dont like,crappy jump shot,crappy shot selection,overall poor D and he dont seem to get it that he is not a HOF player who is going to be a backup soon
by southern oregon on Oct 14, 2010 11:07 PM PDT reply actions
He is no spring chicken and would not start for a lot of teams which would no doubt be a problem for Dre
by southern oregon on Oct 14, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
That would be because they already have Rondo
So there would be no need for Dre to even be on the team in the first place.
Nets,No,Utah, Miami,Nugs and maybe not OKC or SAC
by southern oregon on Oct 14, 2010 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions
He would definitely start on Miami
The other teams have established point guards. Otherwise, he would start. For example, he starts on Portland because otherwise, our PG would be Bayless.
Dre starting with 3 ball hogs in Miami would be amusing
by southern oregon on Oct 14, 2010 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions
There was some thought of him signing there in 2009, although the NBA ...
landscape was wholly different back then for obvious reasons.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
What you see is what you get,Dre is too old and stubborn to change his ways
He might have a good time in NY or GS but they would still stink
by southern oregon on Oct 14, 2010 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Miami already has the low-usage variety of that in Carlos Arroyo.
Mario Chalmers is there for defense, while Eddie House is there for shooting.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
The 2 go hand in hand
Like Roy, he generates his assists from having the ball and dishing as the defense collapses on him
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
There'd be no reason to look to Dre for assists when ya got playmakers like Wade and Lebron on a team
You’d want someone to play defense and hit shots, not be a creator.
M—
#52
if he could do that
we wouldn’t be talking about trading him would we?
I'm a grown man stuck inside the mind of a 3 year old
by The Arkitect on Oct 15, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I did not mean to imply that he is ever going to sniff the HOF
by southern oregon on Oct 14, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
very few get to sniff the HOFF
Pamela Anderson, KIT,…
Geriatric Dunk Squad!
1/4/10 - Juwan Howard dunks on Chris Kaman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkOqDgLb6s
3/7/10 - Andre Miller Tomahawk jams on the Denver Nuggets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-JVgm7F1QA
4/12/10 - Marcus Camby drops 30 and 13 on OKC to cement 50 wins. http://www.nba.com/blazers/media/camby_chant_041310.mp3
by Eat Politicians on Oct 14, 2010 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought I was old...
Geriatric Dunk Squad!
1/4/10 - Juwan Howard dunks on Chris Kaman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTkOqDgLb6s
3/7/10 - Andre Miller Tomahawk jams on the Denver Nuggets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-JVgm7F1QA
4/12/10 - Marcus Camby drops 30 and 13 on OKC to cement 50 wins. http://www.nba.com/blazers/media/camby_chant_041310.mp3
by Eat Politicians on Oct 15, 2010 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions
overall poor D
below average individual defender (and few PGs can contain elite penetrators without help)
above average team defender (knows the league and communicates well when he’s on the floor)
this does not add up to “poor overall D”
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yeah, Andre Miller is an all-around average defensive player.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
But you think Roy and LA are crappy defenders?
by southern oregon on Oct 15, 2010 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Brandon Roy is a lazy defender, while LMA's one stregth on defense -- which is switching ...
up top and guarding perimeter defenders — makes him a glorified Jared Jeffries on that side of the ball. So, as it is, I’d say they’re both below average with the potential to be average.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Watching our star player play defense is one of the worst things about being a Blazer fan right now
He can do it. He shows it for a couple plays at the end of close games. But the rest of the time, you can tell he doesn’t think it’s his responsibility. It bugs me.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions
It was like that at Washington, too, where Bobby Jones covered for Brandon Roy.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
I mentioned it in the last few days
Brandon’s stated goal for last season was the all NBA defensive team. If our defense it going to make a big leap, he needs to take that goal seriously. We can’t just have a hole on the perimeter.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Between Lorenzo Romar and Nate McMillan, Brandon Roy hasn't ever had a ...
defensive-minded head coach. Honestly, I don’t think Roy gets it.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Me neither
Lets offer Larry Brown $20 bazillion dollars to come to Portland and show Roy how it’s done
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
not exactly
I’m not sure if there is an effective defensive rating system that can clarify – but Roy’s defensive +/- was much better in 2008/2009 than in 2009/2010 – with the logical conclusion that last year, he played hurt and the team suffered for it (and the inverse – that he is a positive contributor to team defense when healthy and fully capable of making individual defensive stands as shown by his block on Carmelo in 2009).
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I like the 2nd half of your statement in parentheses
But it can be true while being mutually exclusie of the first half
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
but as opposed to being "clueless" as a team defender
we have stats that say otherwise. He helped team defense when healthy in 2008/2009 and hurt it in 2009/2010.
82games.com
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions
His on/off numbers in '08-'09 say that we were a half point per game better on defense when he was in
In the same range as Blake and Batum, with Batum getting half the minutes Roy did. It ranks him 5th on the team behind Przybilla (1st in NBA), Aldridge, Fernandez, and Blake. While this is above average, it’s also his high water mark thus far, which is frustrating for your franchie player and team leader. Especially after he claimed to have a newfound focus on defense heading into the ‘09-’10 season. From watching games, I feel like he was a disinterested defender long before he got hurt last year
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Being .5 points better defensively with him on the court
is well within the margin of error for +/- in a single year and doesn’t really prove much, particularly when most of the time he wasn’t on the court, defensive sieves like Sergio and Trout were out there. I’d trust Basketballvalue’s net efficiency ratings more which have him as essentially neutral on defense in 2008/2009 and a clear negative last year. Far from any all-defense dreams he might have had no matter how you slice it, though.
I think it’s far less that he’s clueless and more a lack of effort, fueled by a perception that he needs to conserve himself to carry the team on offense. Although admittedly, I think you could characterize his belief that he can be an elite defender while conserving that much energy as naive. As you pointed out in the Melo example, he’s certainly capable of being an elite on ball defender when he tries.
#52
I'd agree that the 82games.com data is most useful for showing a significant difference between years
So many variables go into +/- that it is hard to draw anything but generalizations from them….but this I do think it is valid to characterize Roy as a defensive opportunist and neutral as a team defender when healthy. Most clearly, he was a team defense liability last year.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Roy seems to be clueless with regard to team defense, which hurts his score a lot IMO
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
It's like when he had 10 steals in a game...much like 2k Nba its like Im done with that I'm moving on to the next challenge while forgetting what he can do when he puts his mind to it
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
He’s shown plenty of flashes, especially in crunch time (Forcing Joe Johnson into 2 24 sec violations, blocking ’Melo in the post) but flashes of 1 on 1 defense do not win playoff games, let alone titles
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Team denfense does though and at times Roy seems to have in his mind that he is the offense and forgets about the past on what he can do on defense when he takes the challenge
Could be more on Nate in the huddles telling Roy to look for the outlet pass and slowe it down though: ;)
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions
League Wide Usage
Here is the usage rate of the highest usage player from each playoff team from last year (min 2000 minutes).
Miami – 34.9, Dwayne Wade
Cleveland – 33.5, LeBron James
Denver – 33.4, Carmelo Anthony
LA – 32.3, Kobe Bryant
OKC – 32.0, Kevin Durant
Dallas – 28.8, Dirk Nowitzki
Charlotte – 27.8, Stephen Jackson
Phoenix – 27.3, Amare Stoudemire
Chicago – 27.2, Derrick Rose
Portland – 26.6, Brandon Roy
Atlanta – 26.3, Joe Johnson
Milwaukee – 26.1, Brandon Jennings
SA – 26.0, Tim Duncan
Orlando – 25.2, Vince Carter
Utah – 24.8, Carlos Boozer
Boston – 23.8, Paul Pierce
I went in to this with the hope of seeing a pattern, but given that one finals entrant was near the top and one was at the bottom, it’s hard to spot one. Even trying to look and different tier teams doesn’t really show a pattern. The existence of other legit options seems to be a major factor, but keeping your top guy’s usage rate down could go either way (if I had more time, maybe I’d analyze the usage of the top guys on past championship teams… perhaps a fan shot for another day).
Conclusion: It’s not automatically bad if Roy gets the ball more.
by Gargen on Oct 14, 2010 11:21 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Good comment
I think that when people say that iso doesn’t work in the playoffs it’s not really based in any kind of evidence. Of course iso works in the playoffs. You have to have other weapons, of course, and great teams have more than one tool in the belt, but saying iso doesn’t work in the playoffs is absurd.
What? Did someone just yell "Hey Brace Face! Get Us a Center!"
That was totally uncalled for…. - Krang
The Atlanta Hawks called
To say that iso doesn’t really work in the playoffs
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Does anyone have a link to that Basketball Prospectus article?
I’m having trouble finding it.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions
the issue is that good defenses have shut down the all-Brandon offense.
Houston suffocated him in 2009.
by Cablinasian on Oct 15, 2010 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions
That's what it looks like happens to iso teams in the playoffs
That’s why we need 1. Oden inside as a legit low post threat (out of anyone’s hands), and 2. A more creative offense for when the isos get stuffed, and they will.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions
The best example of this most recently is the Atlanta Hawks, which are now stuck in neutral.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
And guess where the rest of the league sees us right now?
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Oct 15, 2010 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Houston did not suffocate Brandon Roy in 2009
They suffocated everyone else – but not Roy – which might have been your point.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Cab's first statement is absolutely right, though
They completely embarrassed Nate’s all-Brandon, all the time offense and turned Brandon into a completely one dimensional scorer, basically a Kevin Durant-lite which absolutely decimated our offense. If it were possible for Roy (or any player, not to pick on him) to score every time down, this wouldn’t have been an issue, but Houston showed that it’s not that difficult to completely eliminate Roy’s abiility to create buckets for other players, showing the need for some more offensive diversity.
#52
yeah - was just clarifying that this was probably his point
Roy looked good against Houston – but the Blazers didn’t.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, and I chalk that up to coaching failure instead of Roy
but it gets a little disconcerting when Roy, who acknowledged the need for help in the immediate aftermath of that series when he was completely exhausted after a 6 game series (basically 5.5 games since he only played 30 minutes in game 1) seems to be going back and endorsing these same coaching failures.
And to be honest, I think the fatigue issue is pretty important, too. I have no doubt that we could win a series or maybe even two playing a similar style if our supporting cast had been a little better, but I just don’t see how Brandon could have maintained that pace. As he said, he was completely wiped, and yet he played less than a third of the number of minutes that Kobe did that year. I just can’t see that being sustainable for Brandon for 4 playoff rounds if we’re going to win a title, particularly with competition that gets tougher as it goes along.
#52
Bravo, Bravo, Bravo
Elegantly worded in interviews or not, Brandon Roy is correct in expressing his desire for control and primacy in the offense. Any kind of struggle that threatens to prevent that harms this team and goes against the definition of team itself, at least as far as the NBA runs. If Miller and Roy aren’t on the same page—and circumstantial evidence and backstage rumblings both indicate they may not be no matter how much they doth protest—then the situation must be addressed.
Amen
Now let’s go play ball.
"You're not too smart, are you? I like that in a man." - Matty Walker in Body Heat (1981)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Oct 14, 2010 11:48 PM PDT reply actions
Dave, you deserve 1000 recs for "Roy v. Wade" alone
That was a quality pun.
Dave, seriously
You are on an epic roll this week. Glad to see you’re not taking things lightly this pre-season.
All day baby, all day!
Not to distract from Andre.
But I liked the point about Brandon. It’s his team, and he should have the ball in his hands a lot.
That being said, I worry about a Royfense™ built upon one ballhandler being shut down, a la the 2009 first round.
But couldnt the baskets come easier coming off screens and off the ball or running the pick and roll and pass back to him going down the lane
I’m sorry but I’m really tired of watching Roy dribble and pass ( not to bigs mid you ) but to the perimeter for those famously " Flaming Crud Passes"
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Hopefully Buck will teach the bigs how to actually set a " Pick" his year and not what we have seen except from Pryz
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Oden likes him some picking too. One of my favorite things about him is he seems to genuinely enjoy doing big man stuff besides dunking
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Oden rolls sheepishly, albiet after a hard pick hoping not to get a moving pick, not expecting the pass unless Andre was on the floor
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Another chart to make...How many assists where to Oden off of pick and Roll's as opposed to offensive rebound put backs?
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions
thats easy
the ratio is 1:0 (no assists recorded on putbacks). Man, you keep setting ’em on the tee for me….
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Greg was called for a lot of cheap offensive fouls, when setting picks
he needs to take some lessons from Przy
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Definitely
But Brandon doesn’t use picks anyway. I’m looking forward to him and Przy freeing shooters on downscreens
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Hopefully Roy will learn to use picks set
Juwan and Camby would go out and set high picks and Roy would either wave them off or dribble about 10 feet around them.
Since Dave is giving us a Dave night...Dave...Are you confident in our training staff and the new assistant coaches implementing their own idea's on offense or defense?
Or did Nate do friendship hires to override a previous Head coach he thinks did him wrong and another Nate guy? It’s Nate’s head on the line so why hire " Yes " men?
Also what do you think about how Hibbert has played in the preseason with Walton coaching him during the offseason? I know it's preseason but the guy has a different mental aspect and confidence which makes me wonder why the Blazers have never assigned a
Big man coach to Oden to offer both Mental and direct disapline…lets not kid ourselves,,,the guy made more in his last 3 years than Roy did his whole ROOKIE CONTRACT yet played 82 games total
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions
from my post "Reasons to Call for Patience"
Assistant Coaches: When they were announced we talked at length about the paltry NBA value of O’s book, the inexperience of Buck, and the set of Bernie’s ways. Since then I have heard little to no speculation concerning their influence on the Blazers. I believe they might be a significant factor in the team not firing on all cylinders yet. My understanding is that Assistant Coaches are the Sergeants of the brain trust hierarchy. They are the go-between for head coach and front office to individual players. When you integrate a new batch of ACs to the system you might be disrupting communication and causing more kinks to be ironed out.
On the plus side I really think that once the head forms this beer will be clear and potent. Bernie might be rough on the rookies but I believe he’ll aid in picking up the tempo in practice and on court. We all have high hopes for Buck instilling his work ethic in LMA and GO and ther rest of the team. O could very well be saving his best know-how for job security.
I am mixed on this
On the one hand I’ve opined that the new assistants are Nate’s way of making sure that he does it his way without reservation. On the other hand I also believe that these guys have to bring something different or, by definition, he wouldn’t have wanted them. Which, now that I read it again, is just what you said in your comment. I think we’ll just have to see. I could do with a little less trickery and a little more butt-kickery on defense. If a coach can get the team there (most likely with Oden) I’ll call the moves a rousing success no matter who is responsible.
—Dave
So if next year we see a new coach brought in and a new offense,,Is this a wasted year or circa Jordan & Pippen 88' - 89'?
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 1:53 AM PDT up reply actions
In all fairness to Doug Collins, he actually knows how to coach defense.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Not according to Kobe :( Trade coaches? Portland would burn
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 1:57 AM PDT up reply actions
The SOS pressure defense is a fine system for international play with the heavy use of ...
perimeter-oriented offenses, but it isn’t effective domestically versus pick-and-roll basketball.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
Maybe since we are so similar to LA..We should try with Roy with triangle offense if we want a non playmaker pg
All For those who want Blake bake say I:
Nay
Nay
Nay
Nay…
It goes on like that for awhile….
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:14 AM PDT up reply actions
then Paul Allen should have hired Rambis to teach the triangle
or maybe he can hire Brian Shaw away from L*A? The the L*kers could hire Nate to replace P-Jack and make K*be happy
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Depends on the team chemistry right?
Which I think Roy is undermining by going above Nate with his comments and Nate has lost this team and its star player which has and will be as long as he is on the team…Brandon Roy.
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 1:56 AM PDT up reply actions
biggest/baddest inmate running the asylum?
Hope not, but it wouldn’t be the first time in pro sports history
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
no
Nate deserves a fair shake because he did a miraculous job last year
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
If you mean by a chicken running with their head cut off and surviving to lay an egg then yes...I agree!
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Still
You can’t fire a coach after winning 50 games with the roster we had most of last year. The coaches who coulda done as well or better aren’t up for hire
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
I havent better recomendations for sure and no I dont want JVG
Im just saying that Nate needs to brush up on his reading of Phil Jackson books during the summer and Walton brought in to mentor and help keep Hreh outta Vegas during the summer instead of working with Hibbert would been a big step to what we are " OWED" for going thru the Jail " Tinfoil" years
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't believe the Blazers can waste years at this point
The players should be taking over some of the responsibility for their own learning, regardless of coaching. All of the core players are veteran enough to do that now. Besides they aren’t winning the title this year anyway so by default they avoid the only other definition of “waste” that matters.
—Dave
So by that...Do you think the team should be figuring it out on there own or do they need a vocal leader thats not on the team?
By watching games and being at games I can tell you that is not Nate McMilian who they have turned too since the summer of the contracts for Roy and Aldridge,
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I wish the was baseball, Dave, but coaching does matter in basketball.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
They're veterans in that they've been in the league for a while
But they still strike me as lost little boys even/especially Brandon. It’s hard to describe, more a vibe that I get. And I have a hard time seeing him look anywhere other than his coach for guidance.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
Funny how Outlaw has averaged 6 rebounds during pre-season...Maybe he isnt trying like he did in Portland
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I hate to say so, but I agree
LMA seems like he’s turning a corner in accepting coaching and improvement to his game.
Buck and Bayno can be persuasive
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
This cannot be another growing year though Dave...if it is then players will be gone and grow under more capable/less sarge Coaches
And what are they shooting for then? There has to be hope " what are we owed " or are you throwing the towel in now? As a Blazer fan until they elimation game in the playoffs I never throw in the towel…dissapointed in this response from you Dave.
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I give discourse and solutions albiet non professional ones but I would never say with this team
That I have proudly grown to love with Roy and Aldrige ( although he needs to bang and rebound more and block shots ) and the mythical Oden… we " Besides they aren’t winning the title this year anyway – Dave " Where is the hope then?
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:30 AM PDT up reply actions
They are shooting for an eventual title
but if you’re not going to be happy unless they win one this year then you are not going to be happy.
—Dave
And I don't get the disappointment
I basically said they should progress whether or not the coaching proves adequate. It’s not like they’re babes in the woods anymore. That is a good thing.
—Dave
Not disappointed in you...but you give us hope during false praise and you bring us to reality during a 2 game losing steak,
To know that you Dave have weakened your thoughts of a Championship this year….then be honest with your post ( which I know your are ) but what are we playing for? Chemistry? Greg back? Brandon to get it? Chris Paul?
It’s pre-season and yes we are all venting but I havent heard from anyone htat we cant win this year the " Championship " if things pull together. I was born after that and am not religious but it’s sad to hear that I have more faith in this team this year than you do Dave.
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Or maybe you are just pulling a Rich Cho..and for that my hat goes off to you
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Did anyone think Walton would lead them to a Championship in '77? Never say Die Dave
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:55 AM PDT up reply actions
are you really that high on Miami?
jump off the bandwagon, man.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions
There are plenty of teams between Portland and Miami on the “title contention” scale
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
depends on who you ask
APBRMetrics loves the Blazers and predicts great things (such as contending for the WC Championship).
Plenty of issues for the Blazers to work out to realize their potential – but no more than any other contender.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions
what's the proper symbology for "tongue in cheek"?
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Bob Robinson did
the old Oregonian beat reporter predicted a title for the Blazers after watching Ramsay’s first fall camp
based on Bill’s NBA career up to that point, no one would have predicted that Walton would stay healthy, much less be the final’s MVP
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
???
False praise? I don’t think I’ve ever said anything about the Blazers winning it all this year. In fact when I’ve mentioned it I’ve said consistently that this won’t be the year. The reason that you don’t hear more people saying it is because they don’t consider it a viable question or serious possibility. But another way to think of it is that all those people who are predicting the L*kers or Celtics or Heat or Magic to win it all this year are, in effect, telling you that this will not be Portland’s year. How many experts or media people have predicted the Blazers to finish #1 overall?
—Dave
As for what we're playing for
it’s getting better and moving towards that eventual title. Answering all the questions that are being brought up in this post is a start, and there are more. That’s no different than any of the other years save that hopefully the Blazers are closer to the goal than at any time before and should win more. We’re also playing to advance farther in the playoffs and maybe get some actual playoff winning experience instead of that playoff losing experience we’ve had the last couple of seasons.
—Dave
Here's an analogy of how I see this
If I’m off-base you can tell me. (I probably won’t read it until morning though. I have to go to bed at some point!)
My kid is two years old. He’s pretty smart if I do say so myself. He’s counting, doing the alphabet, doing some reading by rote, using fairly complex words and such. And yeah, I’m bragging about him and praising the heck out of him. Then someone comes along and asks, "Where’s his college degree?" And I’m like, "What? Isn’t it a little soon for that?" And the guy says, "Well, what does this counting and alphabet stuff matter then if there’s no degree? And why all the praise for him if he can’t get one?" And “I find your lack of faith in him disturbing.”
See, the Blazers are closer to a title than my kid is to a degree, but it’s more or less the same thing. The praise is real and important and him continuing to work towards reading and math and such is vital. And I have a TON of faith in him! He’s my kid! His progress is also worth following even if the degree is still a little ways away, just as the team is worth following this year even if they only get to the second round of the playoffs (or maybe Conference Finals if things go well).
—Dave
the difference is immediate potential for improvement
a title is not completely out of the question if a bunch of things go right:
1. No significant injuries (true for all teams)
2. LMA becomes an inside out machine drawing tons of fouls and becoming a dominant weak side defender and not being a liability at the point of attack
3. Oden finishes the season where he left off in 2009/2010
4. Team defense clicks like the 85 Bears
5. The backcourt is a multidimensional weapon
6. The bench becomes a multidimensional weapon offensively and defensively
This is all plausible (if not probable) and would make Portland a contender against even Miami if logical advantages at Center and PG offset the disadvantage at SF (and SG/PF are at least neutral)
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions
dare to dream,
and boldly go.
love that feel good universe.
by damonrayhymer on Oct 15, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions
would definitely have been clear if I had said
(but not probable). When everything has to go right, chances are, they won’t.
But hey, the Blazers could have a dream season like OKC did last year.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, he's reaching for that proverbial pie in the sky.
Also, I hate how he compared the vaunted 46 defense coached by Buddy Ryan for those Super Bowl XX winning Chicago Bears with Nate McMillan’s flawed SOS pressure defense in Portland.
If I was Ryan, I’d be insulted.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
this beat your post by 15 minutes so no excuses for missing it:
(but not probable). When everything has to go right, chances are, they won’t.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions
During Nate McMillan's time with the Seattle SuperSonics, he had an extremely diverse member ...
on his assistant coaching staff, Bob Weiss, but that didn’t make any impact whatsoever.
"Some things you can't unsee, bro." (The League)
How does one do a signature? I am going to use this one as my motivation be post this year
I don’t believe the Blazers can waste years at this point The players should be taking over some of the responsibility for their own learning, regardless of coaching. All of the core players are veteran enough to do that now. Besides they aren’t winning the title this year anyway so by default they avoid the only other definition of "waste" that matters.
—Dave
by TheOdenator52 on Oct 15, 2010 2:34 AM PDT up reply actions
The signature requires repeated effort. The only formatted signature you can add to all your posts is the italicized gray one
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
Go to your profile
Click the “My Dashboard” option
Your preferred signature is one of the editable options
#5
It's true, my v key doesn't work properly
We need Miller
He provides the inside scoring we don’t get at Center and Power Forward
;-}
by Hermistonmelons on Oct 15, 2010 5:48 AM PDT reply actions
this statement is in error
unless you are counting foul shots as inside scoring. LMA is demonstrably more productive than Miller at scoring inside (both scores more inside and does so at a better rate – .643 eFG% vs. .601). As AK pointed out – this is because of LMA’s offensive rebounds and putbacks while Miller is a little better in the “close” category.
Miller does draw more fouls – but the other significant difference between the two would surprise you – Miller shoots 61% of his shots from outside (vs. 64% for LMA), but is so atrocious at it that his TS% is lower than LMA’s in spite of the foul shooting advantage.
Law of Logical Argument
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
by blacknoiseNW on Oct 15, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions
You missed the smiley face
Perhaps tongue in cheek would be better if I had such an Icon. Though, with both, what makes them funny is there is some truth to it.
Forget the numbers. Who looks to get to the Rim most aggressively. Bayless I would put as the number one player to do that here. Then Andre. If LA developed and tried, his foul shots would go up
by Hermistonmelons on Oct 15, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
you see well, son of Eomer
perhaps too well
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Hehehehe.
Just when I thought this place couldn’t get any geekier. ;)
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 15, 2010 9:48 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
kind of sad, really
I don’t think I’ve read Tolkein since the movies came out, and I used to go back and read the LoTR regularly, before the trilogy
curse you, Peter Jackson!
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
t4l, you are the best italics-user on the site
I’m saying that right now. No contest.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
someone else is going to have to claim the title of best bold-user
because I rarely if ever go there
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Hmmmm..
I understand your points Dave, and I appreciate what you are saying. But one of my problems is that from the moment Miller arrived, there has been a circling of wagons attitude coming from Roy. Miller was brought here for a reason. Presumably this reason had to do with what his skill set could provide the Blazers. Yet, there has been resistance to the application of that skill set from the get go. And it’s been revealed by our leader in a somewhat passive aggressive manner, through the media.
Perhaps Miller is simply a hired gun, but he is a veteran who could help develop other players games.. INCLUDING Roy’s if there were more of (or any) effort to USE HIS SKILLS. I am in no way advocating turning Miller into our #1 guy. But as has been said many times, the iso’s and pick and rolls Roy seems to be asking for limit this team’s ability to grow. All the talk about Roy working on playing off the ball more was so exciting because it seemed to indicate an acknowledgement that as great as he is, he can get better still, by adding to his arsenal. AND by allowing the players around him to get better. Batum as a slasher and a post up presence, Oden as a post beast, Matthews as a new an exciting option….. if any one of these scenarios become reality, Roy’s life will only get easier and he will only get better.
I'd still honk once!
The number of times the projected best lineup of Andre Miller, Brandon Roy, Nicolas Batum, LaMarcus Aldridge, and Greg Oden both started and clicked flawlessly together last year was zero.
This is technically a true statement, but it’s also true that this projected lineup never started together, isn’t it? Nic was out of commission until well after Greg went down. The point is still valid in that the other four guys never really clicked, but I do think Nic would help as the proverbial glue guy. I would like to see those five guys on the floor together.
Re: Andre Miller, is he harming the Blazers’ ability to develop into a championship team? It seems unlikely the team could win a title with him at the point. While the team might win more games with Dre than, say, Jerryd getting major minutes, wouldn’t playing Jerryd more (or Matthews or Armon or whoever or finding another solution) improve the Blazers’ title chances? Or is Dre’s help as a hired gun in getting the Blazers to the second round more valuable?
Q: Is Greg favoring his knee?
Frye: He favors dunking on your head, that's what he favors.
I'm worried
Since the start, Brandon and Miller seem to have not clicked. You can point to Brandon’s playing style and skills and Millers and say they just don’t mesh…and I think that’s basicly it.
I’ve been worried about the Miller/Brandon equation since the end of last season, because what I observed last season was the same questions and tension we have developing again this season, and IMO it did not subside until Blake was traded and Brandon was hobbled with his groin pull and later knee….It took a lot of adversity to open up Millers role and his best moments came with a Brandon Roy in a severely limited role due to injury and/or totally out of the line-up. So I hate to pat myself on the back, but I was afraid these questions would arise again.
So who knows how it plays out this season. Do Miller and Brandon create and/or discover a way to thrive and co-exist? Is it possible? Will injury open up the role for one or the other again and the point become moot? How does the addition of Matthews affect the playing time and roles of both Brandon and Miller? Last season, it took way too long…but eventually McMillan seemed to discover Miller was clearly the more talented player than Steve Blake….but is Miller clearly the more talented player than Matthews?
I don’t have the answers and I don’t mean to elevate this issue higher than I think it deserves…what happens with Miller, and Miller and Brandon or Miller and The Blazers…will happen. Harsh truth is that at Millers age, his role as a player in the N.B.A. will be declining whether that role is here OR whether with another team. I think Miller deserves some recognition for actually being an remarkable athlete…taking it easy in the off-season, and/or whatever his routine…he’s been an Iron Man and shown remarkable stanima. But eventually age catches all of us, even Miller.
Ideally? Miller is a talent…..but IMO not a talent that we can afford to champion at the cost of Brandon Roys role, or even perhaps Matthews and/or other Blazer guard prospects. Last season I thought McMillans…Miller with the second unit experiment simply did not work. For whatever reason Miller simply did not thrive or seem to produce with the second unit. Ultimately, whether with The Blazers or another team, I think Miller goes from being a starter to being a role player on the bench….how painful that is for Miller and/or how painful that becomes for The Blazers remains to be seen. Right now? The Problem is Miller is probably our most talented, and experienced PG…but that same talent and experience does not mesh well with Brandon Roy.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
So sick of this drama
Every time I hear about the Andre vs. Roy tif , I curse the evolution of the media into the over dramatizing, substance lacking, trash that it has become. Not a damn thing has happened and we have already forced this soap opera back into the mix. Why does there have to be this perceived underlying power struggle? These are two professional ballers, I very much doubt that Andre’s game hurts Brandon’s or vice-versa. I have not heard a single decent argument as to how Andre’s game hurts Roy’s. God I hate the drama.
The simple argument is spacing.
Andre can’t shoot from the outside, which would help space the floor when Roy is operating at the elbow of top of the key. That’s Roy’s bread and butter.
Of course, I believe you can find other ways to space the floor in order to take advantage of Andre’s tremendous upside. For one, he’s money from 18 feet and in and can post up smaller guards. Thus far, however, we havn’t seen a whole lot of that and it’s been more of an either/or proposition when these guys are on the floor together. Either Brandon dominates the ball and Andre stands out at the 3 point line, which is akin to Stacey Augmon standing out there, except Stacey Augmon could pressure the ball on defense, or Andre dominates the ball and Brandon uses his average quickness to run through screens and overall clog up the play. The results aint been pretty yet.
But I don’t think there is a PERSONAL issue here. There’s no evidence of it, at least. These are two professionals and I expect it to stay that way. But if one is going to ‘give’, it’s going to be Andre.
chk yrslf bf u rec yrslf
by Hipster Olympic Team! on Oct 15, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
They both need the ball to be sucessfull
If they are on the court at the same time, one of them is invariably standing around. Roy hasn’t (or won’t) learn to play without the ball, and Andre is all about distributing it.
If Roy doesn’t want to work to make himself available to Miller and Miller can’t spot up and shoot the 3, then their games just don’t compliment each others.
Can't Miller and Roy just work this out?
They both seem like classy, mature guys, and they must both understand how much they need one another. Can’t they just sit down and talk things out? Because that seems like the only way it’s going to get resolved.
On the money
Both your and Ben’s articles were spot on, it’s unfortuante that most of Blazerland don’t understand how team’s opperate.
I kinda feel bad for Miller becaue he’s at that age where he feels like he still wants to be the focal point of an offense, but doesn’t realize that his talents don’t justify him leading the way. He wants to be a key figure and you can tell by his pouting on the bench or the awkward moments where he hands the ball over to Roy that his pride is too strong to realize …he’s not the guy. It isn’t Roy that needed to adjust to Miller, it’s Miller who needed to adjust to Roy and the Portland Trail-Blazers and so far he’s done a lousy job of this. Sure he’s had his moments, but it’s like using a flathead screwdriver on a phillips screw. If you angle it right, you can get it to go in, but it’s not nearly as smooth as using the right tool for the problem. Unfortuantely he just doesn’t have the right skill set and the right attitude to mesh with the team’s only star.
I don’t understand why Blazer fans feel this is all Roy’s fault or Mac’s and why Miller has earned immunity amongst the fans? This is a crazy ass city we live in, that’s for sure because if this were any other star on any other team…the fans would no doubt have that players back and not the back of a guy who was never in the team’s future discussions.
???
How do teams operate?
Miller does not want to be the focal point of the offense. It’s a job that, by default, belongs to a point guard/ floor general.
It’s the Blazers who have initiated the change, thinking that they want to be a “winged rotation” team. A philosophy that they had to adopt because they didn’t have a true (effective) point guard and also a system that doesn’t do a “defensive read” to start the play. True point guards are your defensive readers that direct the team into the best possible offensive transition plays. They are the floor leaders that can get an immediate advantage over the defense and can often produce the most viable options to score more easily. Any smart team would want to take advantage of the “full glass of options” if they have a guy who can do this.
The Blazers have given Roy the ball, and centered everything around him. It will be decided how productive this will be and if they can build from this format…so far they have not ….and this is the reason why fans, whom many of them do know a lot about basketball, have given rise to more doubts and less optimism. Nothing coming out of this years training camp is giving any credentials to increased optimism, so reasoning becomes widespread and polarizing.
I think if you find that players and coaches are on the same page, then things will turn out OK….But sadly, echoes of the past are still coming out of this camp and when “your leader” is anything but upbeat, then fans will wonder what’s going on and will fill in the gaps for themselves….
hey guy ..it’s a “team’ issue” Roy and Nate get to share the responsibility for that, because that is where they have rested their laurels They are this team’s truth or consequences. Of course this is just my opinion, but the product they put on the floor is simply not that entertaining and the novelty of "rise with us’ may soon wear off.
[Good defense "releases" your offense]
I think my take on this
is Brandon’s comments sounded as though he felt it is all about him. Not that he felt he is the leader and that he is clearly the best player and therefore maintains the right to have the ball in his hands more than the other players on the team.
Of course he is the best and does indeed deserve to have the ball the most. What rankled me was the total lack of expression that he is remotely willing to step out of his comfort zone to lift his team to new heights. He is very good at the P&R and his skills are jaw dropping in the ISO. But those are not very effective strategies in today’s NBA, especially in the play-offs. I mean just look at Lebron. The best player in the league, period. He can’t win a championship playing that same style of offense. If he can’t how the heck is B Roy going to?
I guess I was hoping for him to say that while the P&R and ISO are his favorite plays, he is willing and able to adjust his game for the teams success.
I love Miller and have for a long time. It was my hope that he would help Brandon and the Blazers find a larger identity, a championship identity. Give the Blazers the ability to play different styles with their starters, if that is what the game at hand demanded. As we have seen, that has not been the case. Is it because Miller is an inferior PG? No. Is it because Brandon needs the ball more to be effective? No.
My take? It is because Brandon has entered his Kobe Bryant phase. He makes the most money, he is the best, therefore he refuses to improve HIS game because he now feels entitled to remain stagnant. Even to the determent of his team and their success.
I was disappointed in Brandon’s comments, because they sounded arrogant, rather than confident. And that is not what I hoped for.
Did his statements make me less of a Blazers fan? No. Did his statements make me less of a Brandon Roy fan. Yes they did. i admit it. Do I hate him now or want him to be traded? No, of course not. What I want is for the Nate to coach Brandon to become the best player he can and to become the best leader the team needs, even if that means stepping out of his comfort zone. Especially if it means stepping out of his comfort zone.
I think we can all agree that the stagnant offense that the Blazers have run in the playoffs has not worked. I think this is really an issue with the coach and not Brandon.
by BlazerFanFromDenver on Oct 15, 2010 1:35 PM PDT reply actions
Great Post Dave
Exactly the two questions that should be asked?
What is Andre’s role? (and does it fit?)
And is this group becoming a team?
Love it.
Aldridge/the Utah game
On Monday night, in the first half, the Blazers persistently worked the ball into LaMarcus in the left low block. He took a LOT of time with the ball most possessions, eventually cutting across the lane and tossing up his awkward-looking little hook shot and once drop-stepping the other way for a wide-open lay-in. All of that time, neither Miller nor Roy participated in the exercise. Roy stayed in the corner, mostly, and Miller hung out at the top of the key.
This was NOT the offense the Blazers will play when the regular season opens. Roy won’t be that passive; neither will Miller. Aldridge won’t be taking up space on the low block right in the middle of Roy’s finishing area.
The best sequences of that game came when Roy/Batum/Mathews played together without Miller and Aldridge wasn’t the focus of the offense. Maybe that threesome will play together a lot this year and maybe not. The point is simply that the Blazers were playing a pre-season game to figure some things out. They lost the game; Roy took 9 shots; he didn’t touch the ball much except when he initiated his own offense.
So after the game, he says, the regular season will be different. I’ll be getting more than 9 shots a game. The offense will be different. MacMillan agrees. Anyone within earshot agrees. And somehow some fans and some media misconstrue his remarks as an assertion of a tyranny of some sort, mindless egotism.
That’s crazy. The Blazers played well at the end of the season last year with Miller/Roy/Camby/Batum/Aldridge. Not championship caliber good, but well enough to make us think that some growth by Batum and a healthy Oden might be enough to drive the team deeper into the playoffs. Maybe much deeper. That still stands, and a few pre-season games doesn’t change it.
We may have been wrong. In which case, trades will happen, most likely, maybe even firings. But for now, there’s no good reason to abandon the general consensus we had before pre-season: The Blazers are going to be pretty good going forward. Thanks for the reality check, Dave.
by flightrisk on Oct 15, 2010 4:37 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
One thing I think you're mistaken about
He didn’t say he’d get the ball more than that game. He said, or implied, that he’d get the ball a LOT more than he did in 09-10.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
yeah he was signing that purple banner at the scrimmage, yesterday
that’s hard for an Oregon fan to stomach, and he kicked a stuffed duck at the Nike photo shoot a few years back…just when we think you’re one of us, you have to remind us where your roots are
Roy wore #23 in high school and idolized Michael Jordan? (the guy who shrugged after draining a 3 pointer in the finals and later told Bull’s fans “thank God you drafted me instead of Portland!”)
grumble grumble grumble
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I wear Viking's gear, from time to time
and I always have to make it clear there’s no intended connection to the U-dub
my in-laws live in Tacoma, BTW
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
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