Out of the frying pan into the fire: the Blazers imminent playing time controversy
Have you checked your calendar lately? In the next two weeks, the Blazers are going to be getting Steve, Rudy, and Nic back. For the first time, the team will have its full complement of eight perimeter players. On one hand, it is great to see help on the horizon, on the other, this is sure to create another round of PT controversy. Coming on the heals of months of controversy about our PG rotation, this isn't likely to be pretty.
Nate has had trouble dealing with four guards, now he will have five (plus Mills). Equally important, Nate's primary way of dealing with the problem, which has been to play a lot of 3 guard lineups, is likely to become less attractive as the team adjusts to having both Nic and Martell for the first time. Given our lack of a true center, playing a real SF, rather than a 3 guard line-up, is one way to improve our rebounding and defense.
So what should we do, and is Nate likely to strike the right balance? Follow me across the jump.
I'm not particularly optimistic that this transition is going to be smooth. Guys are going to be rusty coming back from injury. Guys who have been playing are going to be disrupted by a changed rotation. Everyone is going to be nervous about their place in the rotation and "trying too hard" is almost inevitable. Couple these realities with the fact that Nate's handling of the PG rotation over the past few months has not exactly inspired confidence, and I think there is reason for real concern.
Let's look at each of the three perimeter positions:
SF: I am starting here, because I think this is the easiest position. Martell has been coming around. It has taken a while for him to knock a year of rust off his game, but his performance over the past couple of weeks seems to indicate that while still streaky, he is becoming productive on a fairly consistent basis. I think it is pretty obvious that you continue to start Martell and gradually ramp up Nic's minutes based on production and defense. Both guys have some general similarity in their game. Martell is a shooter who can defend, and who has the athleticism to make plays in the open court and occasionally around the rim. Nic is a defender who can shoot, and who has the athleticism to make plays in the open court and occasionally around the rim.
Both guys help our defense, both guys can spread the floor for our penetrators, and both guys help our rebounding compared to playing a three guard line-up. Obviously it will depend on match-ups, but I don't think it is going to make sense to continue to play 3 guard lie-ups for more than a maximum of 10 minutes per game.
SG: Roy is obviously going to get the bulk of the minutes here. Hopefully, Nate will no longer have to play him as much, but lets face it, the team needs its star on the floor for at least 36 minutes per game.
The back-up minutes are more of a challenge. Rudy is obviously the teams back-up SG. He is a proven international star and set the record for mosts 3 pointers by a rookie last season. On the other hand, Bayless has shown he can be an extremely dynamic scorer off the bench, and while not a great defender against longer, taller SGs, he is no longer a defensive liability, using strength and quickness to make up what he lacks in length.
Rudy is likely to get most of these minutes, but there may be certain situations where Bayless would be a more powerful weapon off the bench. Against teams without dominant shot blockers, or late in quarters where an opponent is in the penalty, Bayless' ability to get to the line may be a better choice.
Over the long term, Bayless' development does create the possibility that Rudy could be traded. I doubt that the team would be willing to part with such a promising young star on an affordable rookie contract, but Rudy would likely have the highest trade value of any Blazer I would be willing to part with. If KP could score an outstanding big man (not past his prime) it would be worth considering. What do the rest of you think?
PG: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that 4 PGs is too many. Somebody almost has to go by the start of next season.
Mills is the least accomplished of the four, but he doesn't seem like the guy who is most likely to be departing. Why would the team have signed Mills, if they were not convinced that he had potential? As a late 2nd round pick who has not had a chance to show much, he has minimal trade value. The only logical reason to sign him is to develop him, either for our team, or for a future trade. Mills has certainly shown flashes of real potential. At a minimum, he seems like a good candidate to be the teams third string, change of pace, see how he develops, emergency back-up for next season.
Bayless isn't going anywhere unless the Blazers get back a young, accomplished, starting PG. There shouldn't be much doubt at this point that Bayless has enormous potential as a scorer. He is still working to develop consistency on his jumper, and he is still learning how to deal with NBA shoot blockers, but his potential as a shooter and a penetrator is there for all to see. Very few players have Bayless' combination of a lethal first step, strength to finish at the rim, and the ability to stop on a dime and rise up for the jumper. Once he gets a bit more consistent, he is going to be virtually impossible to defend one on one. If you get up on him, he will blow by you. If you sag off him, he will rise-up and hit the jumper.
Bayless already requires constant attention from the opposing defense, this is creating openings for Roy and for the perimeter shooters. Just thinking of Bayless and Oden (or Aldridge) running a full range of P & R options has me drooling. Judging from the limited success Bayless has already had with Juwan and Dante, I can only imagine how successful he could be with someone as big, fast, and powerful as Oden.
Bayless has also made progress in three other areas besides scoring. 1) He seems to have gotten his foul rate under control. 2) He has made big strides in reducing TOs and now has the lowest TOV% of any of our PGs. And 3) he is quickly becoming a pretty decent distributor and now has a higher Assist % than Blake. He certainly isn't Andre Miller, let alone Chris Paul, but he is a guy who is rapidly figuring out how to use his ability to penetrate to create openings for teammates. How good of a PG Bayless ultimately becomes is still something of a question, but the oft repeated lament that, "he isn't a PG, and never will be," should be laid to rest.
Given that all the injuries have most likely taken the team out of WCF contention, I think developing Bayless, in general, and nurturing a Bayless/Roy back-court, in particular, should be among the teams highest priorities. Whether the team is better with Miller, or Blake, or Bayless, on the floor in a certain situation is almost beside the point. Bayless is no longer a liability defensively or as a distributor, so whatever marginal difference may arguably exist is outweighed, in my mind, by the need to develop Bayless for next season and beyond. If Bayless isn't getting at least 20 minutes a night, I think the team is making a huge mistake. If Nate is responsible for that mistake, I will be seriously questioning his future with the team.
Miller is clearly the best all-around PG on the team. A glance at his career stats makes this obvious, and a look at the team's play since Dre became the starter confirms this reality. Miller isn't a perfect compliment to Roy because of his limited shooting range, but they are effective in taking turns as the initiators of the offense during the first three quarters of the game. Miller helps get our other players involved and helps us score a few more easy hoops with fast breaks, lobs, and penetration. We are still predominantly a jump shooting team with-out our big guys in there, but Miller makes us less so.
Personally, I think Nate has been using Miller effectively for the past few games. I want to see Miller with Roy as an alternative scorer during the first three quarters when Roy does not dominate the ball as much. In the fourth, I like seeing Roy paired with Bayless and Martell or Rudy. Bayless requires a lot of defensive attention because he, like Roy, is a multi-threat scorer who can shoot or penetrate. Miller can't shoot, and Blake can't penetrate. Bayless can take the ball on roughly a third of the possessions to give Roy a bit of a breather and use his penetration and the P&R to get open looks for other LMA, Juwan, and Martell or Rudy.
Blake, in my mind, is the odd man out. What he brings to the table is largely replicated by other players. He may be slightly better as a team defender than Miller or Bayless, although I would argue the point, but whatever difference there may be is probably slight. He is certainly the best shooter, but that skill is less critical with the return of Rudy and Nic, and with improvement by Bayless and Martell.
The bottom line is pretty clear. Blake isn't good enough to be the starter, and he is in the way of developing our two young PGs. If it comes down to a choice between Blake and Miller, choosing Blake hurts the team in the short run. Miller is a better scorer and a better distributor. Miller is also a better mentor for the two young PGs whose games are built around their ability to penetrate. Blake might be nice to have for the rest of the season because of his ability to shoot and his comfort with a lot of our players, but he is almost certainly not a good fit for the team long term. Blake's utility to the team largely rests on his ability to play off of Roy. Blake is not a good fit with the second unit which is filled with shooters and needs a penetrating PG who can push the pace to take advantage of the second unit's athleticism.
If you are not going to resign Blake in the summer, does it make sense to keep him for the rest of the season? I don't think so. If we were in contention, his shooting and steady hand would be valuable, but if we are not in contention, what marginal value does Blake bring to the team? Bayless is a better scorer. Bayless has a lower TOV %. Bayless has a higher Assist %. Bayless is probably a better one-on-one defender. Blake is a more proven spot-up shooter, but this season, even that has been very inconsistent for long periods.
Conclusion: Nate is going to have an extremely difficult time getting adequate minutes for four guards given that we will have both Nic and Martell at SF for the first time. Trying to find minutes for five guards is going to be impossible. If Nate reverts to overplaying Steve, as has been his pattern in the past, it is likely going to create significant unhappiness on the part of Dre, Jerryd, and Rudy. Steve is a nice guy who has done a lot for this team over the past three seasons, but his time is now past. The team has outgrown his skill set. KP should try to see what he can get for Blake's expiring contract. Blake could potentially be paired with a variety of other assets to create a package that might return a badly needed big man who could help us both in the short term and for the long haul.
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What a happy problem!!
In Bayless I trust.
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This seems more like, "Out of the frying pan and into the park bench sipping tea."
In Bayless I trust.
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Not necessarily
If Nate gives Blake 25 minutes, most likely Dre, Rudy, and Bayless are all going to be upset, and that upset is likely to impact performance.
by upper left corner on Jan 10, 2010 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
I beat they will still play better than they would if they were DNP-Injured.
In Bayless I trust.
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I "bet"....
Or you just pretend I type in an accent. :)
In Bayless I trust.
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I like lots of Rudy, personally.
I’m fine with Bayless, Blake, and Miller.
Either way, choosing between two things is usually better than being forced to do one thing.
Rudy+Roy+Webster (Batum)+LMA+Howard (Oden) is my happiest line up and I don’t care what would come after (although I’d like Bayless to be the first off the bench, truth be told).
In Bayless I trust.
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Why did out team play worse with 7 more guys?
Either way, choosing between two things is usually better than being forced to do one thing.
Seems like in our case in was better to be forced to do one thing.
by Sound_Automatic on Jan 10, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
Although this may seem to be true, it is clearly false in my opinion.
Putting those kind of minutes on that small amount of players adds a much greater chance of injury.
For winning a few games by heart, it is great.
For surviving a season and going to the playoffs, it is terrible.
So in the end, I suppose my definition of success simply differs from yours.
In Bayless I trust.
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I think that trading Steve is a good idea. I think between the rest of them
there will be plenty of minutes between “getting back in playing shape” and needing rest from playing TOO MANY MINUTES!!!! LA, ROY in particular…are both playing injured and I think would both welcome time to rest during games.
Did you mean to use "Concussion"?
and implying a headache, or was that supposed to be conclusion.
Oops!
I think that must have been a typo combined with a spell check mis-highlight. It does makes my head hurt. Thanks for straightening me out.
by upper left corner on Jan 10, 2010 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
Thoughts
1. Mills goes back to Idaho. That’s where he went before Blake ended up in the hospital, he’ll certainly go back there, unless he somehow gets on court against Cleveland and hits 15 straight 3s, bringing us back from a deep deficit to win the game. It doesn’t mean giving up on him, it just means he gets to develop there rather than in Portland. They wanted him to go to Europe, and almost certainly told him if he signed he’d spend real time in Idaho, and that’s what is happening. I’m about 95% sure this happens.
2. Dante has been playing some PF for us, quite a bit, actually. Nic said Nate had talked to him about playing PF some. He has the length, if not the bulk — against some PFs, he’ll struggle, against others he’ll do great. Look for Nic to take some of Dante’s minutes, some of Juwan’s (LMA sliding to center), and perhaps a few of LMA’s. I’m about 75% sure this happens.
3. As a result of #2, there will still be some SF minutes for our guards.
4. Hopefully, we’ll see Roy down under 40 mpg, with Rudy taking 5 mpg from Brandon, and picking up 10-15 to start from the other guys. As Rudy gets back into condition, hopefully, that bumps up to 25 mpg or so, total.
5. I don’t see a trade unless we really can get a big man who A) can significantly help us this year and B1) will fit nicely into our rotation next year or B2) we’re only trading away someone we didn’t expect to have next year. Barring a trade, look for Nate to try to distribute minutes fairly evenly among Andre, Jerryd, and Steve, with Andre getting a few more and Steve getting a few less on average, but variations depending on game situation.
Elaboration on #5. If the decision has been made not to keep Blake, then any big stiff would do in a trade, as long as the salary isn’t too egregious. If they still see Blake as a potential member of the team next year, they won’t trade him for anyone who isn’t a potential help next year as well. I know you disagree, but I’m pretty sure they view Blake as a long term member of the team, the backup to Jerryd when Andre has ridden off into the sunset.
Second Elaboration on #5. If we can somehow grab that wonderful creature, the big man who would help this year and fit in the rotation next year, we will probably trade Steve or Andre, whichever is necessary to do the deal.
I think Jerryd and Rudy are pretty much untouchable right now except in a blockbuster. And a blockbuster could happen — but I don’t see trading either of those guys for a role-playing big man. They are both the kind of player that can simply blow a game open for you, and Rudy adds to that the uncanny ability to nail a 3 right in your face with the game on the line. You don’t trade that away for the guy who is going to be your backup PF when your window opens.
One more thought about Jerryd’s minutes. I don’t think he’s going to go Stephen Jackson on us and demand a trade if his minutes drop down to 18-20 again, as long as he gets more when the shots are dropping. Jerryd’s career is still in the future, this has primarily been a fun glimpse ahead. We’ve seen some games where he’s really struggled, enough of them that he’ll accept not getting 30 mpg every night right now, that he doesn’t have the consistency to necessarily warrant that. As long as we don’t see 10-12 mpg for Jerryd, he’ll be fine. After all, next year he’ll probably be starting and getting 30+.
One of the PGs will almost certainly be gone next year. Either Steve will be traded or not re-signed, Andre will be traded, or Jerryd goes in a blockbuster. My money is on Jerryd becoming the starter, Steve being re-signed as an inexpensive fourth guard (with most guard minutes split between Roy, Rudy, and Bayless), and Andre being traded in a major acquisition.
#5 #10 #52 #88
by jscot on Jan 10, 2010 9:54 AM PST reply actions 3 recs
this
One of the PGs will almost certainly be gone next year. Either Steve will be traded or not re-signed, Andre will be traded, or Jerryd goes in a blockbuster. My money is on Jerryd becoming the starter, Steve being re-signed as an inexpensive fourth guard (with most guard minutes split between Roy, Rudy, and Bayless), and Andre being traded in a major acquisition.
This is the most obvious solution. we need/want Rudy and Bayless to get 30+ minutes a game. There is no way to do that with Miller still on the team. Blake would likely accept a role as the 4th guard, getting 15 minutes a night, and what a luxury it would be to have him in that role. if he has to step up and play more due to foul trouble or injury, you know you are getting a guy who won’t make too many mistakes, won’t turn the ball over, and who will hit the open shot.
The concern of course is that losing Miller means you are losing the only guy on this roster who has the proven ability and track record to run the fast break and get people easy baskets in the half court on a nightly basis. Sure, there are other guys on the roster who could potentially do those things, but none that have proven it. That worries me.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
I think Blake becomes Steve Kerr for this team in the long run.
And Miller is gone.
That is my uninformed guess at least.
And I bear Miller no ill will.
In Bayless I trust.
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by staylost on Jan 10, 2010 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Could be great if it happened
But Steve Kerr only started 30 games in his 910 game career. Steve Kerr had no illusions about being a starter. Steve Blake has started more than 63% of his NBA career (286 out of 453 games). Is he really happy coming off the bench, while he is still relatively young, or would he prefer moving to a team that would give him a starters role?
Yeah, it is a best case scenario.
In Bayless I trust.
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Steve will do what he's told and not complain
the thing that worries me more is that if KP finds a decent offer and makes a deal including Miller next month, then Nate will go back to starting Blake at PG. Not just this spring, but next fall as well
When it comes to Portland, you can’t think logically re: lineups and logjams…Nate and KP are more touchy-feely. We can all hope KP will trade Blake and “remove the temptation” from Nate to start him (or play him long minutes, as he did with Jack) but I’m not going to hold my breath that Steve is going anywhere, anytime soon. Unless there’s a blockbuster deal and it requires Blake and his salary to be a part of it
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
If the consensus is that Steve Blake is a great fit as ...
… the backup PG / 4th guard, what is the problem with him starting next season?
Going on the assumption that Andre Miller is traded (I wouldn’t make that assumption), Blake being next season as the starter would likely mean the following:
Jerryd is not deemed ready to be the starting PG
or
Portland wants Bayless leading the 2nd unit (the role originally envisioned for Miller this year).
Either way I don’t see any problem. Ultimately what matters is that which makes the Blazers the strongest team. Nowhere is it written that Bayless has to be the starter by next season. So long as he is seeing an increase in minutes and more importantly, his role in the scheme of things, he is not going to complain. When you are looking long term, as Pritchard is, there is no good reason to rush things.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
I just don't see a future where Blake plays less than 30 minutes
as long as Nate is the coach. I am fine with having Blake around (heck, even prefer it) if he is going to get spot duties, but I just do not see it happen based on past history.
I even think Blake would be fine in spot duty. But as long as Nate is the coach, I doubt it happens. I really hope Nate proves me wrong, though.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
This 30 mpg is a fallacy
Even when Blake started at the beginning of the year, in the first five games he played between 20:17 and 30:54.
His minutes were higher in the flukey 2 starting PGs lineup. After that, up to and including the Houston game (Rudy’s first game out), he had seven games with PT between 21:42 and 29:07.
Before the Oden/Rudy injuries, except the flukey lineup games, he was averaging around 25 mpg. Then, they went on that stupid road trip where Dean played him 40 mpg. Since then, he’s exceeded 30 minutes twice — against Phoenix when he was on fire (I hope no one complains about keeping him in that game) and against S.A. when Roy was out.
Nate has only played Blake 30 minutes three times except for when he was using the fluke lineup. Even the Christmas game where he torched Denver, he only played 21 minutes.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Even if 25 mpg is the average, that's still way too much
Considering Miller, Bayless, Batum, and Fernandez are all superior players. Batum and Rudy comes back, Blake should get less than 10 minutes.
And as I stated above, I just do not see this happening. Blake is the security blanket and he will get way too many minutes, as usual.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
It's still a fallacy
It was 25 mpg before Jerryd’s emergence. Do you think Nate hasn’t noticed Jerryd’s emergence?
Now, with Rudy out, Blake is still only getting 25 mpg. When Rudy comes back, do you really think he will take none of Steve’s minutes?
What was the projected starting lineup in that Houston game, before it turned out that Rudy was out with an injury? Andre, Rudy, Brandon.
Except for that crazy road trip when Dean was in charge, Blake’s role on this team has been decreasing, even with the injuries. I don’t see any way that guys getting healthy is going to reverse that trend, and especially since it will probably take Steve at least a month to really regain his strength/conditioning.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Really? Do you think Jerryd's emergence alone makes a difference?
If so, that’s great. But need I remind you, this is what Blake’s minutes looked like when we had our full compliments of players, minus Batum: 26, 20, 25, 31, 27, 38, 27, 31, 23, 32. Also, let’s actually look at your claim that Blake has been averaging 25 minutes after we came back from the Demopulis road trip. I came up with 27.44 per game, which I guess you can round down to 25, but also round up to 30. In contrast, both Dre and Bayless (which was also his time of emergence) came up with 26.78. Yes, Blake still got the most minutes even though we can agree that he is the least talented of the player out of 3.
Past behavior says he is going to play Blake and play Blake often. If anything, Webster is likely to lose all his minutes when Rudy comes back. While you like to claim that my concern is a fallacy, the historic data suggest that there is a legitimate reason for my concern.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
In jscot's defense
In the last game, Jerryd entered the game before Blake. Admittedly Blake was in his first game back, but that still says something.
I think Jerryd will have a short leash now, though. If he comes out cold, he’ll get yanked and he might not get many second half minutes.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
Sigh, sigh, sigh
After the road trip, Blake has averaged 27.44 minutes, but that includes 38 (if I remember accurately) in the San Antonio game when Brandon was out. I think we can discard that one as not indicative of anything. I’m pretty comfortable with saying Blake averaged 25 mpg after that road trip.
Before the Rudy injury, Blake averaged 25 mpg when Rudy was taking some minutes, and Jerryd wasn’t. After the Rudy injury (ignoring the Demo road trip) Blake averaged 25 mpg without Rudy taking any minutes.
What does that tell me? It tells me Blake (except for that road trip) obviously lost some minutes to Jerryd and Andre (he isn’t starting anymore, remember), but recouped them from Rudy’s minutes.
Now, Rudy is coming back. What’s going to happen?
Well, you can wring your hands about it if you want, I suppose, and assume that Blake is going to get 25-30 minutes, ignoring the return of Rudy and the emergence of Jerryd.
But in all probability, Jerryd’s emergence guarantees that he’ll get more playing time than in the past, and Martell’s progress guarantees that he’ll get real minutes, and Rudy’s track record gaurantees that he’ll get some time, not much tonight, but more later.
And that means Rudy might take some time from Jerryd, and some time from Martell, and some from Brandon, but he’s going to take some time from Steve, too, especially since Steve isn’t well and strong yet and might not be really fit for a month. And if Steve averages more than 20 mpg over the rest of the season, I’ll be very, very surprised.
But I suppose we’ll see what happens, won’t we? Going back and forth over it isn’t going to accomplish much.
As to Blake being the least talented, of course he is. But his defense is rated better by Synergy, and his playing style fits what Nate likes. Bayless and Miller have both been inconsistent. And really, from a few games making a big deal over Blake playing 40 seconds more per game than the others is not really worth much. They played the same amount.
You don’t like him playing as much as he did, I didn’t either. I suspect Nate will still play him more than I would really like to see. But I don’t think Nate is going to just bench Rudy and/or Jerryd and/or Martell just so his buddy Blake can play lots of minutes. That is not what is going on here.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Keep Miller and let him continue to play next year with Oden back!!!!!! That is one of the main
reasons he was signed I believe. He was the only one who would feet the big guy! Also Miller can continue to work with LA at the rim. And run the fast break. Miller is needed next year if the Blazers are to be in contention. Unless someone ELSE suddenly decides to learn how to get the ball to the center….which I do not see happening. Bayless needs someone to teach him. Also Miller can continue to teach DC and JP. I just think the flow of the game seems to be much better when Miller is on the floor….eventually Brandon will see how much easier his game can be with Miller on the floor. Also Bayless and Miller play well together.
i see this point, and don't disagree
but it essentially means trading either Bayless or Rudy then, or having one of them rot on the bench all next year, which would be monumentally stupid.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Re: teaching
Umm…do the Blazers really need Andre Miller for teaching purposes? I mean, the head coach was a point guard himself, after all. Certainly one thing most of us could agree upon is that Nate does not have his job purely because of his abilities in dissecting the X’s & O’s or his uncanny ability to use players’ minutes most effectively.
Personally, it seems to me that his most effective coaching comes as a teacher.
So, while I’m in the keep Andre around camp, it’s certainly not because of hid teaching ability.
Bayless can probably learn well from observation
and from on court situations. But there’s nothing I’ve seen or heard about Andre here or in the past that makes me think he’s willing or interested in teaching in a more direct capacity. Perhaps this is mostly speculation, but he comes across as being far too reserved and quiet for that (not to mention the competition at the PG spot would make most people think hard about giving their competitor more ammo).
Whatever Miller is, he’s also only here for one more year. Even if he’s the best PG we have, I don’t think given the options he’s worth investing in at the loss of a better long term fit. Getting one year of supposedly improved post passing to Oden isn’t going to mean anything in the long run, unless we somehow win it all that year and then regress. If we’re going to be successful long term, it’ll have to be without whatever Miller brings I think.
exactly my thoughts
re mills , LMA sliding 2 play 5 and DC playin 4.
The Princess of Blazersedge
It just takes an iron fist to keep the riff raff under control and her princess hand is mad strong- Idoltime
rec for saving me the typing
jscot somehow managed to accurately and completely itemize every thought in my head about this fan shot.
My next step
is to put the thoughts into your head. Then, we’re really getting somewhere. :)
#5 #10 #52 #88
That beats hell out of the backup plan.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Thanks for your usual insightful post. Afew reactions
1. Makes sense. Although at some point the team might question how much Mills is going to improve when he is obviously playing against guys who don’t have the talent/speed to hang with him. Maybe you decide that he is better off practicing with the big boys?
2. Makes sense. Nic becomes a replacement Travis at back-up PF. Boy that could lead to some interesting fast break opportunities with LMA at the 5 and Nic at the 4 and Miler/Bayless at the controls. I can’t think of many teams that could get up and down with those guys.
5. If you play all three PGs roughly evenly (say Miller 18, Bayless 16, Blake 14), don’t you create constant whiplash of styles for the team and make it hard for any of the three to get a rhythm?
You have frequently stated your belief that the team would like to have Steve back next year. If that was the original plan, why bring in Miller, and why sign Mills? Was Miller just seen as insurance in case Bayless didn’t show improvement? If Miller is the starter, Bayless is the back-up, and Mills is the project, what role does that leave for Blake? Seems to me something has gotta give.
You seem to be postulating a summer trade of Andre and resigning Blake for cheap. I wonder if Blake with his expiring contract might be easier to deal. I’m also questioning Blake’s fit with the second unit.
by upper left corner on Jan 10, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
Counter thoughts
1. I’m very doubtful of Mills getting any PT either way. Which is best, D League PT or NBA practice? Don’t know. In this case, at least until he regains full conditioning, perhaps D League PT.
2. I especially like this while Rudy is in and Brandon is resting. We could really open up some games that way.
5. I see them all getting a few more minutes than that, at least at first. Rudy’s minutes won’t be that high at first, and since we’ll be running Nic at PF some, we’ll still see some 3 guard lineup. As Rudy’s minutes come up, I hope to see some drop-off in Blake’s, if Jerryd can show some consistency.
#5 #10 #52 #88
I would like to take a look at this from a defensive and overall size perspective, rather than just worrying about relying on a big man.
Down through the years a number of teams in college basketball have won big with marginal size and great offensive and defensive quickness. Some of the old UCLA and Oregon State University teams (under Wooden and Miller) come to mind.
So who are our best midsized defenders with good quickness and athletic ability (Good at collapsing on bigs (good team defenders) and yet can also use their quickness to cover the perimeter). Nic, Dante, Martell, and Jeff all possess the physical characteristics that can, “intimidate,” offensive players causing them to, “rush,” their shot attempts. This is should be the defensive core for the rest of this season..
Now for the secondary core of defenders. guys that may lack to a certain degree in an attribute such as length, quickness, toughness, strength, mindset and the like. The second group of defenders includes Lamarcus, Brandon, Andre, Jerryd, and Rudy (In order of their ability to help on the defensive end). Adding up the first and second groups, that is nine players—and with the high energy output necessary for undersized players, nine does not seem like too many.
In the third group, comprised of our more limited defenders, we have Steve, Patty, Juwan, Shavlik and Travis. These players are more valuable for their potential offensive contributions and should be used in specific situations as the need arises. With the youth that is involved in the first two units, there will be some playing time available for these guys as well. I would see Steve, Travis, and Juwan mixing in situations that we can maintain a certain level of defensive consistency.
We still have a pretty good mix in order to cover for our missing big men. We are hurt the most in defense and rebounding by their absence. That is why I think it may be advisable to consider things in this manner. And this is why I think we can still win. As John Wooden used to say, the most important trait he looked for on the Basketball court was quickness. And in many cases, quickness trumps height.
#52
by KINGofMACct on Jan 10, 2010 10:52 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I like your thinking...
Certainly, the Jordan-era Bulls lacked a significant offensive big man (Horace Grant, Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, Will Perdue, Dennis Rodman, among others) and were able to win. I don’t see a Rodman (6’8", 240 lbs) on our bench but Pendergraph (6’9", 240 lbs) is similar in size/build. And certainly Aldridge is a much better scoring threat than any of the big man options the Bulls had during that era.
You significantly underrate Steve's defense
Synergy rated him better than both Andre and Jerryd. Both Steve and Andre are excellent team defenders.
Other than that point, your post is excellent — but only to a point, of course. Jerryd is quicker than Shaq, but that doesn’t do much good. The three games we lost this week were all lost due to superior size/strength inside.
#5 #10 #52 #88
The three games we lost this week were all lost due to superior size/strength…
Size and strength factor heavily into who I picked for the core group. To this, I would add tenacity and toughness along with speed and quickness. The key here is the ability to disrupt big men (our true weakness at this point). This is partly why Blake ends up in the third tier on my scale. My focus is on our current needs.
Jerryd is quicker than Shaq, but that doesn’t do much good.
I am not thinking only in terms of the primary defender, but as a help defender to stop the dribble, etc… Both he and Andre actually rate more highly because of their quickness and strong hands.
I consider Steve to be very good at maintaining contact on the perimiter (a steady and willing chaser), but I do not see him as being strong enough or athletic enough to deter shots close to the basket. I have seen him repeatedly, on inside plays, get a hand on the ball to little or no affect. I am not sure if Synergy’s stats are really account for that type of inside play.
Thanks for the input though jscot. I would really like to see us play consistently tough with or without our big guys.
#52
by KINGofMACct on Jan 11, 2010 10:21 AM PST up reply actions
So far, so good
I would really like to see us play consistently tough with or without our big guys.
Sometimes, you just get overpowered, no matter how tough you play. In general, we’ve done pretty well.
Thanks for this comment, your thoughts on Steve add a lot of light to your viewpoint as a whole, and I think it is pretty sound.
Steve seems to have good instincts/awareness as to when to double down, and that provides a significant defensive deterrent effect — but you are right that he doesn’t often have the strength to take the ball away.
#5 #10 #52 #88
by jscot on Jan 12, 2010 12:04 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm more of an ACC guy than Pac 10, so I'm not getting the UCLA (or Oregon)
comparison regarding marginal size. The John Wooden teams I recall had guys like Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton and even Swen Nater in the middle. None of those guys paint a picture of marginal size for me.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
The 64 Bruins won the NCAA Title with no player over six feet five inches. In the years 80-82 UCLA won big with a six foot six, two hundred ten pound guy playing center by the named of Mike Sanders.
Oregon State also had some highly ranked teams in the early eighties with AC Green playing center at six eight and two hundred and twenty pounds. These teams were known for swarming defenses that would body up with their arms extended, thus causing a lot of misses that might not otherwise be expected. It was truly surprising that their defenses held up as well as they did against larger more powerful players. In other words, it really did work!
These TEAMS emphasized movement and basketball fundamentals at both ends of the floor—truly some of the greatest basketball ever played and extremely enjoyable to watch. John Wooden and Ralph Miller were two truly great basketball coaches. Height was good, but skill and quickness trumped height most of the time for them.
In a sense, with some of the more skilled centers in the NBA who can run the floor, move quickly, and even play away from the basket at times, we are seeing history repeat itself (Al Horford, Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Al Jefferson, and Dwight Howard all fit this mold to a certain extent). It is still the same game today as it was when Ralph and John prowled the sidelines; if it worked so well back then, it will work today. Big, slow centers are going the way of dinosaurs, that is, unless they are really big and really strong.
#52
honestly
I don’t see Blake being with us for much longer. I see Patty going down to the D-league. Dre/Rex will split minutes at the point. And then Rudy/Brandon/Nic/Marty will split the minutes at the 2/3, with occasionally Nic playing the 4 and Rudy/Brandon a few minutes at the point some times.
Just how I see it.
I'm not saying, I'm just saying.
That;s still a huge drop in minutes for everyone not named Brandon
Say he’s playing 38 mpg at the 2, and Rudy gets 8 mpg at the point. If Rudy gets the rest of the SG minutes, that puts him at 18. Of course, since Dre/Rex only have PG minutes to split, both are down to 20 mpg, and then Webster/Nic are splitting 24 mpg at the 3, plus Outlaw then only plays like 10 mpg backing up LA.
Even completely eliminating Blake from the convo barely helps.
#52
I see what you mean but
I don’t know, I don’t see the projections being like that really, while I think it’s still some-what of a log jam I think it’s definitely manageable. The versatility of a lot of our guys is what I think would make it work for this season at least. Next year I’m not so sure because LMA won’t be getting a lot of backup 5 minutes which would allow Outlaw to play more 4 ( if we re signed him). Blake is definitely the odd-man out though for this season, I hope. And we’ll see how we play it next year.
I'm not saying, I'm just saying.
What is your take, Royster? If you were in Nate's shoes what sort of a rotation would you envision?
I definitely agree that it is going to be tough even if Blake is removed from the equation. If Blake is still getting 20+ it becomes a giant mess.
by upper left corner on Jan 10, 2010 3:50 PM PST up reply actions
Well, my take is probably pretty unpopular
and not really realistic, mainly because I’m not as high on Rudy here long term as pretty much everyone else here, so I see less of an impetus to find him as many minutes as possible. Here’s what I’d prefer once everyone’s back.
At PG, I’d keep Miller starting, playing about 25 mpg, with Bayless behind him playing 20. Depending on matchups and how they’re playing on a night to night basis I’m fine with swapping that, though. Roy takes the other 3 PG minutes as part of a Roy/Rudy backcourt. Blake does his best Jud Buechler impression.
At SG, Roy plays roughly 35 minutes, Rudy plays the other 13. Nothing special there.
For the SFs, I leave Webster starting, at least for the first month or so, and playing 20 minutes, Nic plays between 20-25, Rudy takes up the rest (or Roy, if you want to get into semantics, in which case Rudy would take those minutes of Roy’s at SG). Webster sneaks in 8 minutes as a backup stretch PF as well.
I’m too lazy to get into the big man rotation, but Travis plays most PF minutes, Juwan plays both PF/C, LA has to pretty much play C, and one of Dante/Pendy is back to the end of the bench.
So to sum up, you have Miller playing 25, Bayless playing 20, Roy playing 38, Rudy playing 18-20, Nic at 20-25 (41 between them), and Webster playing 28. All these pretty flexible, though. I personally would prefer Roy at a little less, but even in my imaginary lineup where I don’t have to worry about any Blake minutes, I don’t see us reasonably playing him less.
As to the Rudy thing, it’s not that I don’t love him, I just like what other guys give us in the roles he’s asked to play. In terms of as an off the bench energy guy, I like Bayless in that role (kind of a Manu/JET/Barbosa 6th man-type role), and as a crunch time guy, I don’t think him and Roy are collectively good enough ball handlers/distributors to play the 1/2, and I think we need Webster or Nic’s on-ball defense at rebounding at the wing’s, especially considering LaMarcus’s poor rebounding.
Long-term, I like a 3 guard rotation of Roy, Bayless, and starting PG to be named later. Not that I don’t think Bayless can’t start, but I think he’d be underutilized in a role where the primary role would be to get Greg and LaMarcus the ball. Coming off the bench I think would allow him to attack a little more and do his thing, although I’d still be fine with him playing crunchtime minutes or more than the starter if that’s the case.
#52
that makes the most sense to me
although, I think that martell might have more potential as a swing 4, but that’s 100% a guess (based on physicality and shot blocking).
by Sound_Automatic on Jan 10, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
I doubt that
He’s really a 3/2 and doesn’t have the height (6’-7") nor the bulk to body up big, powerful 4s.
I think we need to move 2-3 players from the Miller/Blake/Bayless/Rudy/Webster/Batum/Outlaw group
Not because its bad to have that many good players (we’ve seen how many injuries can happen), but just because we don’t want ridiculous playing time shortages.
#52
steve blake is IMO immovable. He can't have any trade value
i think Outlaw is the most likely to go first and then perhaps Miller.
If I had my way, Steve would just dissipate into thin air
S
The Princess of Blazersedge
It just takes an iron fist to keep the riff raff under control and her princess hand is mad strong- Idoltime
Blake has trade value.
Expiring contract = very high situational value.
In Bayless I trust.
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And one of the few expirings
that offers a useful player for a reasonable price. Most expirings being dangled are either ridiculously overpaid role players (Ilgauskas) or moderately priced end-of-benchers. A team like the Knicks (although they don’t have much we want) could use both the short term PG/shooting help and the cap room for 2010.
well...
David Lee is attractive…but KP would probably have to give up Rudy
Something like this?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yk3742y
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Props
for making a trade w/ a BYC player work. I think the Knicks would say they give up more talent, but the added cap room HAS to be appealing.
Rudy is the clincher
If the Knicks don’t think they can resign Lee this summer, at least they’ll get a potential all-star with a very affordable contract out of the deal
I don’t really want Gallinari or Landry that much, but sometimes you gotta do what you’ve gotta do…obviously the trade hinges on the Blazer’s ability to resign Lee…he wasn’t keen on coming to Portland last July, but with Joel’s status up in the air perhaps KP will have an easier sell? Lee and LMA would be no great shakes as a defensive frountcourt, but at least Portland would be more competitive for rebounds with Lee in the starting lineup for the rest of this season. Maybe they’d run more, at least you’d think they would
I doubt KP would make this trade, I think he’ll get more for Rudy if he waits…but a deal like this would rebalance the roster and free up some PT for Bayless, Webster and Batum
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don’t really want Gallinari
The more I think about Danilo, the more I think he might be a good fit for Nate’s offense. 6’10, 225 and shoots 40+ from distance? That sounds like a quasi-PF who can help spread the floor, a less-athletic version of Outlaw. I don’t think the young Italian would play out his contract as a Blazer, but he’d fill a role in the short term (that 16 PER isn’t bad, but a lot of his success is probably due to D’Antomi’s system…the downside is that acquiring Gallinari in the deal also might add to Portland’s roster logjam and it would likely push Cunningham to the bench…)
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Gallinari is in no way or shape a power forward. He is less of a 4 than Martell, Nic, and Travis.
#52 #10 #25 #88 #5
Victor Claver
same body type
Like I said, I’m not high on Gallinari, but his presense in the deal would make the numbers work, even better than Jeffries. And if Danilo was acquired I could see him “do the Portland” in Nate’s offense
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
"Steve would just dissipate into thin air"
If the team has decided to not extend him, exactly that is the most likely scenario. He would go away rather quietly with nothing in return like Channing last summer. He would be available the rest of the season, and next summer they can figure out of they re-sign Mills to back him up, bring over Koponen (remember him?), or take on yet another project as the third backup.
It’s a possibility that on paper would solve one rotational problem. I’m not sure Nate would support that though, especially not if he still has a strained relationship with Miller until then and doesn’t have something more passionate to say about Bayless than “he did some good things for us” for a few games in the season or potentially the playoffs.
assuming you mean by the start of next season, then I agree. and the number is 3
we can get rid of two of them just by not resigning them. just doing that, we are left with Miller/Bayless at the 1, Roy/Rudy at the 2, and Batum/Webster at the 3. Let’s put together a hypothetical minutes breakdown
3: Batum 24, Webster 24
2: Roy 36, Rudy 12
1: Miller 28, Bayless 20
We still have a problem – Rudy should really be getting about 25-30 minutes. Where do we find those extra 13-18 minutes? I suppose we could push one of our 3s to the 4 for 10 minutes a night, and play Rudy at the 3. that gets us closer. That might work, but it means we are committing to going small ball whenever LMA is not on the floor, or playing LMA at center for 6-8 minutes a night. That could work.
After this season, I think our biggest needs are 1) identifying (and acquiring if needed) our starting point guard, and 2) finding a backup 5 who can be a credible starter for long stretches if needed. Bonus if he can backup the 4 spot as well, but that’s not critical. It’s possible Joel is still that guy, but we really should hedge our bets, considering the injury he sustained. I no longer think the backup 4 spot is that big of a priority. Between playing Martell or Batum there, and the Cunningham/Pendergraph combo, I think we have that spot covered. Keep Howard or a similar veteran on the team for emergency needs.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
looking at it the other way (getting rid of Miller)
we have this:
3: Batum 24, Webster 24
2: Roy 24, Rudy 24
1: Bayless 24, Roy 12, Blake 12
This allows us to get everyone there minutes without having to play one of our 3s at the 4 spot, opening up time for Pendy/Dante, or an offseason acquisition.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
That's still low
Bayless only at 24 minutes, Roy only at 36? Realistically Roy’s going to be in the 38 minute range, and our starting PG (whoever it may be) should be closer to 28-30, which would cut Blake’s minutes down in the 5-6 minute range. Personally, I’d be fine with that, have him play more of a jacque vaughn type role, but I’m not sure I can see Nate playing him so little.
The other issue for me is the even split between Nic, Marty and Rudy. Maybe it’s just me, but I’d rather see any two of them playing 36 minutes than all 3 playing 24. Not that I think they’re bad, just that I think the marginal gain you get over those last 12 minutes for any of them is more than the first 24 minutes for one of them.
#52
I'd love to see Roy at 34-35 mpg
It could protect against injury and extend his career, and if we don’t have too big of a drop-off when he’s out, that’s what should happen.
I’d be thinking this, if I’m the coach:
3: SF1 28, SF2 20 (I’m thinking SF1 is Nic, but Martell is making a case….).
2: Roy 24, Rudy 24.
1: Bayless 28, Roy 10, Blake 10.
I could definitely see games where Rudy takes 5-6 of Jerryd’s minutes, if he’s on fire. I could see games where Blake hardly gets a sniff, if the other two guys are both tearing it up. I could see Jerryd eating into Rudy’s time, as well. And if Blake can’t miss from 3, I’m going to leave him in a little longer.
This is all based on trading Miller, and I don’t know what you get for him. It can’t be another PG/wing, or you just made it worse again.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Roy/Rudy defensive backcourt
either Nate will have to play a zone, or these two are going to have difficulty defending the perimeter against quick guards
This is the crucial decision that Portland will have to make re: Rudy…because after Nic returns the days of playing Roy at SF are going to be virtually over. And there’s no going back to the days when Bayless was an emergency backup
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Roy will still play some SF
until we get some big men. Nic will slide to the 4 some.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Batum is skinny
don’t you remember him trying to defend Artest last April? Ron abused Nic and Nate had to sub Travis in early in the 1st-3rd quarters
Martell is the 3-4, Nic is more of a 3-2-1. Best perimeter defender in Portland since…ever? He’d be wasted as a post defender
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
would have to be limited matchups
Batum does suffer against tanks like Artest, but against the Dirk/Sheed type perimeter PFs out there, he could potentially see time. At best though it’s a stop-gap solution to alleviate PT concerns and the team’s lack of legit bigs.
Precisely
I don’t see Nic as a PF next year. Actually, if Nic and Martell are our PFs, I would see Martell playing the PF some against stronger PFs, and Nic against the finesse PFs.
Against Phoenix, LMA would defend Amare, and Nic would play “center”, defending Channing, in all probability.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Move them for what?
We can obviously just let Steve and Travis expire, but that seems a sad waste. That still would leave us two deep at the 1-2-3 positions. If only Travis rebounded like a 4….
#5 #10 #52 #88
I have liked the international players enormously but
given the fact that they each seem committed to playing all summer for Spain and France (this seems more ‘important’ to them, and they enjoy it more, than playing for the Blazers), and given how they each manifested injuries which have rendered them basically useless this year, not too arguably related to this extended use, given also that their trade value may well be high —
Trade them. That, and don’t bring back Outlaw. Have Dante Cunningham work all summer at extending his range to hit 3s. Lamarcus the same.
Blake has minimal trade value. But the international players in a package may bring a serious rebounder Jeff Foster type since neither Oden or Joel at this point are sure bets for long minutes everafter.
If Chris Bosh might come to Portland in some complicated deal then yes and goodbye to Aldridge.
I ususally don’t comment on personnel matters as rosterbation is a vice.
ignacio
I'm sure you could get anyone to jump for Batum+Rudy for Jeff Foster.
And, uh, see above on Blake’s value in a trade.
In Bayless I trust.
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trading Rudy AND Batum for a Jeff Foster type
would be a steal – for the other team.
I’m not saying these guys are untouchable, but trading either of them in a package should get us a solid starter back. trading both together should get us a borderline all-star back.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
Right... this is a silly trade in my opinion.
In Bayless I trust.
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there's no "borderline" about it
young talented players on rookie contracts are like gold, KP will hesitate to deal either one of them, so he’d have to be offered a real difference-maker (borderline superstar) to consider parting with both of them
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
There's a chance Brandon will end up playing for Team USA at some point ...
Do we trade him too? Yes, I’m sure it’s important to both Nic and Rudy to represent their countries over the summer and yes, they both ended up missing tons of time this season. But … I was surprised they didn’t look into Rudy’s back more at the end of the season and just assumed he needed the rest. I’m sure it would’ve helped a bit but seems like it was a bit more serious all along. Now, if their injuries resurface later this season (or if there’s another) then if I were KP I wouldn’t sign off on them playing at the FIBA World Championships and they’ll have to understand that. They can’t go play if the Blazers say no. If their fine at the end of the season then let them … Nate will be there too with the US Team so it’ll be much easier to monitor their health. Trade them because of the Spanish and French Teams … no, just wait until the end of the season and see how they’re doing.
And if I was the GM above you I would trade everyone away for a whole team of Millers.
In Bayless I trust.
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Then we'd both get fired for incompetence
by tominhawaii on Jan 10, 2010 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
As long as we get good severence packages.
In Bayless I trust.
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I liked it, looking at the two teams now on ESPN Trade Machine, but are washington really going to trade away their only viable centre?
It's a tune-out fest.
Yeah
That’s the problem. I think only crappy centers are available and then folks always say “you don’t trade smalls for bigs”.
by tominhawaii on Jan 10, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
good post
ULC, your post is well written and echoes my own thoughts. While I agree with much of what jscot writes in the comment above, I still don’t think that does much to alleviate the minute crunch. I agree that Mills will almost surely be sent to the D-League and can develop there. He won’t be an issue this season. And Batum probably will take some PF minutes in a small-ball lineup.
But even with all that, once you factor in Roy, you’ve essentially got around 105 to 110 available minutes at the 1-3 positions to be divided among six guys (Blake, Miller, Bayless, Rudy, Webster, Batum). Even if you go even-steven, that works out to only about 17 or 18 minutes per guy. And let’s face it, it’s impossible to rotate that way. What that means in practice is that, on any given night, one or more of those guys is likely to play 10 or fewer minutes. And NONE of those guys is going to be happy getting that little playing time. Once Outlaw comes back, it gets worse. This is going to be a BIG problem.
So I completely agree with ULC. Unless there are more injuries, the Blazers are going to have to think hard about making a trade before the deadline. They need to trade one or more smalls for a big.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
Bayless' newfound range has rendered Blake obsolete on this team
You covered this, I just wanted to emphasize it
Dictated, not read. The management.
Now, if only rex would stop stepping on the line...
Or wear smaller shoes.
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
Finding the range for a couple of weeks does not count.
I think Bayless has it in him, but don’t count this stuff before you’ve got it locked in.
In Bayless I trust.
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The playing time conumdrum is old news
With injuries to our bigs we are now well past the point where it matters. Miller’s tantrum over minutes proves how irrelevant the point is. Nate will likely continue to employ the 48 minutes from hell strategy with gang rebounding. The return of our athletic wingmen and Steve means lots of fresh substitutions and fouls to give. The hot hand will continue to get the minutes and no one will be complaining (except maybe Andre). The opposition can only beat you with athleticism like the Griz, Clips, 76ers and Warriors demonstrate time and again. This Blazer team is still one of the 2 or 3 youngest teams in the NBA and you can wager your shrinking income that Nate plans to use it. As the undoubted slowest player on the team look for Miller’s minutes to shrink, especially in the 4th quarter when speed and BRoy will be our two best options. It will look a lot like last year’s style only quicker on both ends of the floor.
so, play 4 guard lineups for the rest of the year?
somehow I think Nate would actually go for that, especially if it means getting Blake in there
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I agree
that the Blazers are going to have a challenge in dividing up playing time when all the injured players start returning. It also doesn’t look like it’ll be just one or two players upset – maybe four or five. Is the coaching staff really up to the challenge? Look how well they blended Oden’s talent into the mix. Look how well they planned for Miller’s skill set when there was 10 years of data to be had. It seems that they look at last year’s win total as the end all and be all. Like the acquisition of better talent didn’t have a lot to do with it.
I know there can be justifications for giving one player or another the bulk of the minutes at a particular position. In a way McMillan was really given a gift with all the injuries. A game plan had to be devised for the players on hand instead of trying to get them to play his system. Unlike in year’s past, the talent on the team is more than just role players for Roy. It’s a waste to treat them as such. Will Nate learn from this, or will it be back the the ‘system’? He keeps talking about wanting to run more and having more ball movement but the fact that the players don’t is on him. He has the horses.
I would also be really surprised if KP didn’t understand that the roster will have to be thinned. I would think the guard situation would be the easiest. Is Blake’s ability to dribble the ball past half court and pass to someone really irreplaceable? There are other players that can fill in for his 3 point shooting and I would argue that Miller’s team defense is better. Blake chasing his man all over the court looks good on film, but I haven’t noticed that it really keeps the other team from scoring. It’s just means one less body to double-team. I would much rather see Bayless and Mills learn from Miller’s game. And it wouldn’t hurt Roy to take notes either. Until now, Roy has never had an experienced top level guard with him in the backcourt.
What to do with Fernandez, Batum, and Webster is going to take all of KP’s wizardry. If Roy had the wheels to run more, Rudy would be almost a duplication without quite the skill level. If given some more playing time, I think Webster’s skills would overlap Rudy’s also. The Blazers should not even entertain the idea of giving up Batum. As soon as Batum develops some more offense, he’s going to be scary.
As far as Outlaw goes, he so seldom seems to be in the flow of the game. I think Pendergraph and Cunningham have his skill set covered. Cunningham has the shooting touch and they both enjoy rebounding.
So yes, with the number of quality players returning, dishing out playing time is going to be a dilemma. It does beat the alternative, but I wonder what kind of plans the coaching staff is making, if any.
Trades
Wowee. I hate to even jump in there but we all have to no?
Seeing young guys develop when their playing time gets upped has been quite eye-opening. It seems easy to latch on to a couple of weeks worth of performance and believe that we now know how it all works. I feel kind of dirty suggesting trades because our guys are such great players. All that said….
I never thought I’d say this but think we could trade Outlaw and….. Rudy.
Ouch! Seeing Jarryd do so well along with the rookies it seems that the extra punch we’ve needed to back up Roy has finally come. I really wish Rudy had been one of the healthy left standing so he could have had major minutes as well. I would really really have loved that. It has been frustrating seeing the potential and not a consistent force. I remember the first few games Rudy played as a Blazer and thought he was going to roll with all the great passing etc. He brought so much excitement. Where is that guy?
I know he has some great games but he so often disappears as well. Is it too soon?
Will he get enough minutes to get going? I’ve seen Roy play so many games (not in the last two weeks mind you) where he takes two to three quarters to get up to speed.
Is Rudy one of those guys? Does he need lots of minutes to be consistent?
This much is simple:
Blake shouldn’t be getting more than 20 minutes per game. Been saying that all year, so have a lot of other good basketball people (Hollinger, Kelly Dwyer).
I suspect Nate will further mismanage the rotation.
Hollinger and Dwyer are not "basketball people".
They are writers / columnists. There is a difference.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
You do not need to have played basketball at the highest level to be a good basketball analyst
I will take the analysis of Peter Gammons over John Kruk or Steve Phillips any day. Likewise John Clayton over most any NFL analyst.
#52
I wouldn't disagree with this.
And I happen to think that Hollinger is pretty good. At least he relies on statistical analysis to form much of his opinions. I don’t know that Kelly Dwyer has any particular insight into basketball, other than being a fan of the sport. That he writes well does not mean he can provide insightful analysis. In his case it is more of reporting what he hears from other people. That happens to be his job. It is when reporters go the next step and start believing they are qualified to make judgements in their own right that I lose interest. (See John Clownzano and Dwight getting old sucks Jaynes.)
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Mills to the D League. Trade Steve Blake. Give Jerryd backup PG minutes. Let Brandon play less if Rudy plays well. Let Brandon play big minutes if Rudy doesn’t. Martell continues to start but doesn’t have to play 46 minutes a game (Doubt he will complain). Nic gets backup SF minutes. Juwan, Pendy, and DC hold down the fort at center and backup PF. Though if you can get a big body for Blake, do it.
The key to the plan is to trade Steve Blake. With him on the team, life is complicated. Without him, things get sooooooooo much easier. Between Martell, Nic, Brandon, Rudy, and Jerryd, any contribution Steve brings to the team can be easily duplicated.
Trading Andre Miller and keeping Steve Blake is like quitting your job as Aerospace Engineer to be an ice cream vendor.
Depends on who you get back
and to whom you give the minutes of the traded player.
If you trade Andre and give most of his minutes to Jerryd and Rudy, I don’t think you’ve become an ice cream vendor. Especially if you can get a quality big man for Andre (which probably wouldn’t happen with trading Blake).
#5 #10 #52 #88
Very true but I don't think Nate would dole out minutes that way.
The basis of my post is more about Nate’s decision-making than anything else, and I just realized I never mentioned that above. I simply feel if Steve is removed from the equation the team will run smoother. Nate won’t have Steve as an option, and there won’t be this struggle to find everyone minutes. In two weeks, the Blazers will basically have everyone back that is coming back this year (except Travis), and they will have 12 healthy players (13 if you include Shavlik). I feel very uneasy about Nate trying to get everyone some playing time. Though the team will be thin at center as far as a true big man, they will have 2 players at every position counting Bayless as a PG, Juwan and Pendy as centers and DC as a PF. The two extra players are guards.
I’d like to see one of our guards traded for a center even if that center has a contract beyond this season. Past history has demonstrated that a 3rd string center behind Greg and Joel would be useful given their occasional early foul trouble. I don’t think any center will have a great impact on this season as far as a deep Playoff run so I’m thinking more of someone in Blake’s 4 million dollar salary range. I don’t have any names to throw out there. I follow the Blazers. My knowledge of NBA players as a whole is lacking. Andre Miller is definitely the team’s best bargaining chip for a major trade. No argument there. And losing Andre may not have the impact I think it will. I like the way the guy plays and think he is a great player for the young PG’s to learn from. I know Andre’s not going to take Bayless or Mills under his wing and be a mentor. Mostly they’d have to learn just from watching him play. But I just think another year and a half of him playing for the team would be greatly beneficial to both of our young PG’s development.
If Andre goes and Jerryd and Rudy get his minutes, that could work. I used to believe Rudy would be good at the point and have sort of given up the idea because we have so many PG’s at the moment. But I think Rudy could run the offense and his size would be beneficial. I’m more for Jerryd being relegated to a backup role at the moment. I love his effort, energy and intensity, but he is very inconsistent in my opinion. I just feel if Andre goes then Blake will start. Again, it’s more about Nate and how he would adjust to losing Andre.
I have always assumed Greg and Joel will be back next year. It is possible Joel has a career-ending injury. It’s also possible he will opt out of his contract next year. KP may think you can never have enough PG’s, but I’d be all for stockpiling centers.
Andre is a rental. Whether his option is picked up or not, he is likely outside the team’s championship window. So trading him a quality big is a good option under the circumstances you detailed above. I’d miss Andre, though.
With Joel's injury
the chances he opts out are very low. He won’t be ready to try out for other teams or pass a physical by the time he has to make that decision.
The greater risk is that his return is delayed and we go into next year with only one center. Yet, getting another center is problematic if Joel does return on time — the guy will never play.
The apparent answer is to get one of these guys who can play either the 4 or the 5. We were short on big guys anyway, with Travis (not exactly a bruising 4) as our backup PF. Then, you have someone who can back up LaMarcus at PF as his primary role, but also will be a good backup center in case one of our other centers is injured.
Perhaps Pendergraph is that guy, who knows? I’m not persuaded yet.
You are right about Andre being a rental.
Perhaps trading Steve for a rental big man is workable. I don’t see Steve bringing a very good big man, certainly not one that is likely to be much better than Pendergraph or Travis in the long run.
#5 #10 #52 #88
I have a plan.
In the spirit of resurrecting the careers of players far past their prime, the Blazers waive Steve Blake and sign Dikembe Mutombo. He is only 43, right? I’m sure his knee has healed by now. If opposing teams are embarrassed that the Blazers are defeating them with Juwan Howard at center, imagine the embarrassment they will receive with a Howard/Mutombo one-two punch. It’s perfect. He’s one of the best shot blockers ever and can talk trash to opposing teams in 9 different languages (according to Wikipedia).
Problem solved.
Blake is an expiring
Trade him for someone useless plus a pick, then waive the useless guy and sign Mutombo.
Other than that, decent plan.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Much better.
My brain couldn’t process how to create space on the roster so I panicked and just waived Blake.
How does the trade balance out? Do draft picks have a set value in a trade situation or is it necessary for Blake and Mr. Useless to have comparable salaries?
Draft picks have no value
So it has to be either to a team with cap space, to a team with a trade exception, or Mr. Useless has to have a comparable salary.
We might get a second round pick trading Blake to Miami (they have the necessary trade exception, I think). I’m assuming that if we were trading with a salary dumping team, and took $4-5 million of ugly salary off their hands (perhaps saving them $8-10 million counting luxury tax for a few years), we might get a late first round pick.
Then, if we swing a deal in the summer involving one of our other guards, we can bring Blake back as a free agent to be the fourth guard in the rotation.
Blake’s presence in Portland will never die, you do realize that. 100 years from now, his ghost will still be refusing to leave the court. Quick PGs will blow by the spectre, only to run into a real defender. They will swear Portland is running that six man play again, but on film, the sixth man will never appear. But occasionally, video replays will show the ball, all on its own, dribbling up court at great speed, with offensive players on the wing and few defenders back, only to pull up, back out, and look for Brandon. And the ball will be passed around, and suddenly, a pass will go to the corner, where there is no visible presence, only to have the ball suddenly stop as if caught, and launch towards the basket.
Video replays will be unable to determine whether the shooter’s feet were behind the three point line.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Love the spectre of Steve
As an alternative, why don’t we just hire Steve as an Assistant Coach? Just make sure you take away his uniform so Nate isn’t tempted.
by upper left corner on Jan 13, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
Trade the two expiring contracts (Blake and Outlaw) for some kind of asset
Great post ULC.
It was very difficult for KP to let go of Blake the first time it happened, and he was overjoyed to bring Blake back when he brought him back.
But that’s clearly the best move for the team at this point. Pendergraph and Cunningham have shown enough to be considered viable backup 4s. If Oden and Przybilla both come all the way back from their injuries, the lineups are pretty self-evident:
1. Miller, Mills
Combo 1/2: Bayless
2. Roy, Fernandez
3. Webster, Batum
4. Aldridge, Cunningham
Combo 4/5: Pendergraph
5. Oden, Przybilla
I will miss Outlaw severely and Blake nearly as much, but it seems clear to me what will happen here.
“Some kind of asset” could be draft picks for the future, or someone to play center this year who will not be on the team next year. – Elgin
OK...so girls in movies where guys wear hockey masks have a better survival rate than the average Blazer player. - Dave
by 22baylor on Jan 10, 2010 4:38 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
What is your rationale?
By almost every measure, Andre has been more productive than Blake, and the team has played better with Andre starting than they did with Blake starting. So why move Andre?
by upper left corner on Jan 11, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Two reasons
1. You can get more for Andre than for Blake in a trade.
2. Andre is not going to be willing to settle for limited minutes behind the troika of Brandon, Jerryd, and Rudy next year. Blake will — and can provide decent injury cover should any of the three go down for a while.
That would be the reason to trade Andre, if he is traded.
#5 #10 #52 #88
I think Blake is more attractive trade bait
because he has the expiring contract. I just don’t know if the front office will let go of Blake given their very obvious fondness for the guy.
It depends on who you are trading with
Some teams want to cut salary. Some teams actually want to improve their team. Steve is more attractive to the salary cutters, Andre to the teams trying to win this year.
Andre only has one more year guaranteed on his contract, and a third year at a team option. That is a very attractive contract to a cost-conscious team — they can treat him as an expiring contract either next year or the following year, at their choice.
#5 #10 #52 #88
One more reason I forgot
why you would trade Andre instead of Blake.
It’s primarily about next year and following years.
Next year, Brandon plays (at a minimum) 34 mpg. I’d actually like to see 30-32 on average, but it won’t happen. If they are all here, Rudy, Jerryd, and Andre will all want at least 25 mpg. That takes us to 109 guard minutes, there are only 96 available, and I doubt we’ll run three guards for 12 mpg. Yet, if any of those four guards sees his minutes consistently drop below those levels, there is going to be unhappiness.
Steve is the veteran PG who knows he is never going to be an all-star, and more than anything wants to win. He may fight for minutes, but if he is reduced to 12-15 mpg, he isn’t going to throw a fit or demand a trade, as long as he’s getting paid and has an opportunity to have a role that matters.
Of our current top five guards, Steve is the only one who is likely willing to take the cut in minutes necessary to make the rotation work.
Ask Andre to play only 12-15 minutes behind Jerryd and Rudy, and we’ll have trouble. But Andre is not the future of this team.
I think that you are going to have unrest unless you keep Blake as a limited minutes role player and trade one of Rudy, Andre, or Jerryd. And if it is Rudy, then you only have one SG and three PGs in your rotation, and if it is Jerryd then you have done nothing to address the future at the point.
IMO, the only way to make it work with a four man backcourt of Andre, Jerryd, Brandon, and Rudy is if Nate and Brandon say, “We want to keep this team together, and here’s how we’re going to do it. We’re going to cut starters’ minutes, and our starters are only going to play around 28 mpg — and that includes our all-star. We’re going to run deep, and go hard every minute on the court, and use our depth.” It won’t happen, but that is what I’d want to do. Then, we wouldn’t have to watch guys “rest” on the defensive end, either.
Since that won’t happen, I expect Blake to be here as a limited minutes fourth guard, with either Rudy or Andre (probably Andre) being traded.
It is also possible that we let Blake walk, and tell Jerryd that he’s our long term starter, but Andre gets one more year. Andre starts and gets 28 mpg, Jerryd gets 20 mpg, and Rudy is limited to 15 mpg backing up Brandon and in the occasional 3 guard lineup. This is likely to result in Rudy wanting out. You simply can’t find enough minutes for Andre, Rudy, and Jerryd — and Andre isn’t content to be that limited minutes veteran role player.
#5 #10 #52 #88
honestly
I don’t think Blake is yet ready to be a 10 minute a night guy. He’s relatively young himself. I doubt he re-signs if that’s his likely role (unless he gets no better offers). I think it’s generally best to fill the backup point guard spots with 1) an eager rookie who doesn’t feel entitled to minutes (someone like Mills) and 2) a true veteran who doesn’t feel entitled to minutes (someone like Anthony Johnson). Mills can fill one of those slots, but I’m not sure Blake is at the point in his career where he’s willing to accept the other.
www.ripcitydispatch.com
I don't think he's going to get rich anywhere else
So if the money is the same, and he has a chance to be a 10-15 mpg guy, who will get a lot more in case of injury, on a championship contender, rather than getting 25-30 on a poor team for the same money, he might just take it. He likes Portland, and he knows they like him, so he’ll always get enough chance to play to be a contributor on the team.
We’ll see what happens.
#5 #10 #52 #88
This is one of your better arguments for Blake over Miller
Future happiness is a bit speculative but seems plausible.
by upper left corner on Jan 13, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
Sometimes you've just got to consolidate
A couple of thoughts:
1. Fans tend to be major homers and overvalue their own players.
2. Portland has been stock piling good players for a long time. But I think we’re one great player away from being a contender. Roy and Aldridge are locked in long term, but everyone else should been seen as potential trade bait. Yes, everyone.
by Foofighting101 on Jan 10, 2010 11:07 PM PST reply actions
everyone else should been seen as potential trade bait. Yes, everyone.
Not Oden or Batum. Everyone else yes, to one degree or another
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Batum, too
Martell has rendered Batum tradeable. It would probably have to be a blockbuster, but Nic is not untouchable.
#5 #10 #52 #88
Even before Martell's recent emergence
I’ve never really understood the idea that Nic is untradeable. He should definitely be considered in the “you need to blow us away right now”, but it’s not like there aren’t multiple acquirable guys (including Martell now, apparently) that could give us a more than a reasonable facsmilie of what Nic did last year, or what we’re expecting from our SF in the future.
He needs to actually take the massive leap forward that so many are projecting before he approaches Roy/Oden level of untouchability, and as we’ve seen with pretty much every one of our young guys not named Brandon, that’s never guaranteed.
#52
well, we heard that Charlotte asked for Batum in a GWallace proposal last year at the deadline
and Portland pulled the offer, that’s not “untouchable” but it’s indicative to Nic’s value in the eyes of Portland’s front office
Roy
Oden
LMA
Batum
Rudy
Bayless
everybody else
The first 3 would require a superstar-caliber to acquire, Roy and LMA are BYC (or PPP or whatever they call it) so they’re virtually untradeable until July
The next 3 would take “more talent and less salary” to acquire. In other words, only in a combo deal for a legtimate all-star, or perhaps for an “unprotected” lottery pick
Any complaints about those rankings? There’s not a huge dropoff between LMA and Batum. Nic is a defensive stopper who can’t be “replaced” by Webster, and Batum could eventually become a big part of Portland’s offense as a slasher and playmaker
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
one minor difference I see
is that Bayless is probably above Rudy, or at least less likely to be traded than Rudy. The front office probably sees Bayless as Roy’s long term backcourt mate, and we would therefore need to get a high-quality, young combo guard or point guard in return. Rudy’s contribution to the team can basically be replaced by parts we already have. We’d just give Brandon less time at the “3” and Jerryd the backup shooting guard minutes to replace Rudy’s minutes at “2.” So Rudy could be traded for a quality player regardless of position, making him easier to deal. I’m not sure who’s “more valuable,” but Rudy’s future role isn’t clear, and doesn’t seem essential.
Well stated
Bayless is the one guy who can fill the biggest hole on the team. He may not be the best player, but he is harder to replace than Rudy.
by upper left corner on Jan 13, 2010 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
Not including a guy in a trade for Gerald Wallace
hardly means he’s untouchable. The guy has played more than 60 games in only half of his NBA seasons. He’s the definition of injury-prone and the worst kind, since a single concussion can pretty much end his career at this point.
As far as replacing Nic with Webster, what more could Nic have done against Kobe or Durant? It’s not like Nic didn’t get lit up last year a decent amount of the time. Caron Butler, Hedo, Iggy, and Gerald Wallace both ate him for lunch at least once each, and Melo dominated him in the one meaningful regular season game they played. Not to mention that Nic was so ineffective in the playoffs that he went from starting to being completely out of the rotation, despite us needing a guy to D up Ron.
I like Nic, but unless he takes a massive leap forward, could we get 90% of what he gives us from Webster? Definitely.
#52
agreed
Nicolas Batum is a player with great potential, but it seems he gets better and better around here with every game he doesn’t play.
what more could Nic have done against Kobe or Durant?
Absense makes the mind forgetful
Last year, Nic defended K*be’s dribble penetration right down to the baseline, moved his feet and forced the Mamba into a ridiculous shot. Sure, Bry*nt got to the FT line but the replays showed no contact between the players, just a smothering defensive effort from #88
Martell has made great strides this year, but by no means has he made Batum any less of a keeper. The two SFs have different body types and while Webster is better at defending more-physical players near the basket, Nic is already an expert defending elite penetrators in space. I’d be glad to keep them both, especially because their contracts are affordable. But if someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to choose I’d deal Marty without hesitation, because I think Nic’s upside (he’s only 20) is much higher. Batum has a better handle, better court vision and a better feel for the game at a younger age than Webster
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
A single play? Really?
One could sift through the game tape and find Webster doing something similar in each of those games. We could just as easily talk about some of Webster’s ball-denial efforts this year, too.
Listen, if you can point out the instance in this thread where I’ve said that Nic should be traded ahead of Webster if we had the choice in a trade (all other things being equal), go right ahead. I absolutely agree that I’d keep Nic over Martell if I was forced to choose, but that’s not the point I was making, which is, if Nic were to not be a Blazer tomorrow (through a trade or whatever), could Webster do a decent job replicating what we ask Nic to do? And I think based on this nearly half-season, the answer is an unqualified yes.
If Nic makes the leap people think he will, then he could become untradable, but it’s never guaranteed. Based on their rookie seasons, LaMarcus was expected to be a legit all star and Sergio was supposed to be some sort of Steve Nash-lite by now. Nothing is guaranteed.
So, given that we have a guy who can give us 90% of what Nic gives us, I think that makes him movable. I don’t have any major qualms with your above listing of guys in terms of their “tradablility”, but really, how far down the list should we have to go before you regard someone as “tradable”? I think it’s a little ridiculous to assert that 50% of the rotation is “untradable”. Just because I’m okay with the possibility of moving Nic doesn’t mean I’m clamoring to send him away for a draft pick or two.
#52
Nailed it
Even if your #1 guy at a position is great, he can be rendered tradable by your #2 guy closing the gap to the point.
I will not be surprised if KP swings a very big deal at some point, and if he does, any of these guys could be part of it.
#5 #10 #52 #88
based on more than 1 play
but that one play was indicative of how Batum excels as a perimeter defender, he can guard elite PGs with his long arms and quickness. Portland hasn’t had this kind of defender in forever, not even TR Dunn was as versatile (Cliff Robinson was comparable, but on a bigger scale)
I understand you’re not advocating tossing Nic’s name into trade proposals willy-nilly. I’m just trying to emphasize how valuable he is in the eyes of the Blazer’s front office and coaching staff
When reached 40 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Nic is only 20
Martell is ancient, on the other hand.
Nic has played professionally before coming to Portland.
I think Nic’s upside is probably higher, too, but I’m not sure how much higher. And we’re in the “probably” range here.
Kelly Dwyer has never talked about Nic being in the running for DPOY. Now, I don’t take anything he says as given, but he’s an unbiased observer who sees what Martell is doing this year, and he wrote that before the Martell/Kobe matchup.
#5 #10 #52 #88
I'm with you on this one.
Marty is nice, but I think Nic has a good chance to be special.
by upper left corner on Jan 13, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
BYC doesn't make it impossible, just more difficult.
But Brandon is untradable because the fan base would burn the house down and LMA is untradable because his salary is long, huge, and predicated on the player we’re hoping he’ll develop into rather than who he is right now. (in other words, every other GM will see him as overpaid.)
I don’t see Bayless in the same vein I see Rudy & Nic, though.
lol @ Batum being untradeable
im sorry that one made me chuckle
The Leeroy Rule: being insistent >>>> being correct
by leeroyjenkins on Jan 13, 2010 7:48 AM PST up reply actions
Oden?
I think Portland would trade him, unfortunately his trade value isn’t very high right now.
by Foofighting101 on Jan 11, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
This probably wouldn't fly, but it has upside
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yjauebh
The rationale:
New Orleans has made it pretty clear that they’ve gotten in way over their heads, salary-wise and need to dump big assets. They have been hoping against hope that CP3 isn’t part of what they need to give up, but their desire to give up West leads to two conclusions: 1) they’re still over the cap by dumping West, and 2) when they do dump West, CP3 would be even more frustrated, and he’d probably want out.
The downside for NO is obviously that they’d almost certainly sacrifice a huge chunk of their fan base. It’s a hard sell to a small market that you have to trade away two of your best players. (Probably their two best, but I don’t want to insult Emeka Okafor in a public forum.) This only leads to the question of whether basketball is doomed to fail in New Orleans, and that’s just sickening to me, given how much I love that city. (and how much that city loves basketball.) Katrina may be ultimately to blame. Seattle may be the ultimate beneficiaries. But I digress.
For Portland, trading away four point guards only illustrates the horrendous problem of carrying four point guards to begin with. And yes, JBay is probably a tiny 2 guard. But the first four of those players listed (TO, Blake, Howard & Mills) have one thing in common – and the one thing that New Orleans covets – expiring K’s. That’s all we have to offer for expiring K’s. Here, Hornets, take them all. In fact, I can see the Blazers using their hardship exemption to sign another player for the rest of the season just to have another expiring contract to make something like this work. Doesn’t matter who it is. It could be me, for all it matters (and I could use the $800k. Call me, KP.)
Throwing in Miller, Bayless and Fernandez makes the deal work. Only Miller stays on NO’s books for much longer, but to drop salary, they have to take something on. Them’s the rules.
And Rudy and Bayless are two guys looking to be very frustrated by their minutes situation with our new backcourt. The idea of trading Rudy makes me sick to my stomach, but then we have to lose stuff to get stuff. And in this case, we get STUFF.
Would New Orleans go for this? It’s PR & basketball suicide, but financial CPR. They go for it only if they figure they have to start from scratch to save themselves. On the other hand, they get seven guys who know each other well and have won together. Well, five guys who have done that and Howard and Mills also.
Would Portland do this? It would hurt to lose Rudy & JBay & Travis from a fan point of view, but yes. Of course we would. Immediately after, we’d need to sign another point guard (or take one back after he cleared waivers) and we’d need to sign another big to back up our two 4’s. We already don’t have a center, so not much changes there, except that we have the roster space to do it.
And we’d finally be on the right side of one of those Gasol-dump-type trades.
One misconception
NO isn’t trying to get under the cap, only the luxury tax. They can do this either by trading West, Okafor, or Armstrong/Brown. They don’t need to have a fire sale quite to the degree you assume. Thus far only other NBA execs have even said West is available, the Hornets have said quite the opposite.
To clarify
Armostrong/Brown means both Hilton Armstrong and Devin Brown, only getting rid of 1 would not solve their problems
You're right
the unspoken premise here is that I suspect the Hornets are in very serious financial trouble. More than they’ve let on. The reason I suspect they haven’t said so publicly is because they need to do something besides scream out that they’re in the market for a Gasol type dump. Doing so would eliminate all leverage they have.
Their arena is empty. Their city isn’t what it was (which – don’t get me wrong – is an American tragedy.) By which I mean, economically, that beautiful city isn’t economically strong enough to support a team.
And the reason I think we’re in a better position than most teams to take advantage of them is because we can offer them our biggest trade assets: expiring contracts & cheap, young talent. Lots of it.
if the Hornets are in economic trouble
I would posit they will hang on to CP3 until you rip their fingers off with him. I expect his value to the team in terms of merchandising, PR, ticket sales and so on far exceeds anything they could save by dumping his salary. CP3 is the only thing keeping that team legitimate.
That's a very good argument, and the biggest
reason it will most likely never happen.
I can’t articulate exactly why I suspect it’s a possibility, but it has something to do with CP3 not wanting to be merely that. I don’t think he’s going to be happy being a one man team that hovers around the playoffs/lottery mendoza line. If he’s unhappy in that role, and that’s all NO can offer him, I don’t think it’s that much of a leap to think they could part ways.
I don’t think they want to trade away their franchise any more than we do, but history has shown weirder trades.
Well, I know my post was long and boring
But I did note that we’d need to sign another PG. The possibility exists of taking one back after new orleans waived him, too. The best candidate for that would be Blake. We’ve done it before with Blake, and it wouldn’t surprise me. The Blazer Organization loves him. I don’t know what the league rules are on how long you have to wait to do something like that, but I suspect KP & Tom Penn know.
Well, they just traded Armstrong
and made me look very foolish for not considering they could just slough off a whole load of lowbies to get under the tax.
Yeah, that's interesting
So far we’ve already seen a few salary dumps, and by far the best player moved to get grease the wheels was Eric Maynor. There still are a couple teams that are looking to dump a few bucks to get under the luxury tax (Utah, Miami, Washington & maybe Houston), so we’ll see what happens. But for the most part, it doesn’t look like any team is going to have a do a Gasol-esque fire sale to get under the tax line.
I'd say the best one was Rasual Butler
Also given away by NO to Clips..I believe for a second rounder in 2016 as well.
NO is stocking up one 2016 second rounders for some reason. Do they have a Nostradamus on their staff?
"I think he’s been doing some good things. I think he’s been doing some good things. He’s had to play a lot of minutes lately with Blake being out. I think he’s been doing some good things." -Nate McMillan
Does anyone here besides me think that far, far more time ...
… perhaps on the order of a couple magnitudes, is spent on theoretical breakdowns of player minutes distribution than what occurs within the Blazer organization?
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
Well, given that there are far more BE members than employees of the Blazer organization
I’d hope that far more time is spent here on theoretical breakdowns. Just like I’d imagine far more time is spent here on nearly every single aspect of the Blazer organization than is spent by the actual Blazer employees.
#52
I'm betting the same holds true even after adjusting for that.
Blazer employees / BE commentators will be the adjustment factor.
Clarence, It's better to have a gun and not need it, then need a gun and not have it.
sagcat
Let me see if I I understand this proposed trade:
Trade away:
Blake
Outlaw
Howard
Mills
Rudy
Bayless
Miller
Receive:
Chris Paul
It would unclog the logjams, that’s for sure.
I like Bayless
However handing him the reins and making him a starter is a lot different then having him come off the bench. Look at Blake he was great last year, this year was tough on him. Now that he is playing backup he is back to looking like the old Blake. Bayless is still learning and I would be leery putting him in the starting lineup. I have seen him do good things like the spurs game. However I have seen other games like memphis were he looked tentative, hesitant and missed a free throw down the stretch. Or the last game were he played 15 minutes and didnt have it going. I dont see us going far without Miller this year.
Rudy is coming back from a injury and likely will be rusty for a while. To tell the truth I believe Blake is the odd man out and the most tradeable. I like all of our players right now and I dont think we should make rash trades for a temporary situation.
We certainly aren't going to get away with playing nice guys who we are loyal to anymore
you fill in the blanks
The Leeroy Rule: being insistent >>>> being correct
Trade Blake or Miller and keep Mills on the Roster
Not a title year so let’s use it to take stock in the young unprovens to see if they fit the big picture.
(I’d prefer we kept Miller as I think it makes Portland more competitive.)
Get Mills some run. The NBA game is very advantageous for speedy players like him, Aaron Brooks, and Brandon Jennings.
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.

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