Conventional Wisdom Be Damned, Blazer's Window Is Open.... NOW!
Note: After posting this Sunday afternoon, I couldn't sleep Sunday night, so I decided to expand on some of my thoughts about expected improvements. I added a 3A and a 3B, as well as 4A. Thanks.
Conventional wisdom in sports is often more about trying to avoid the embarrassment of being wrong, rather than taking the risk of being right. What I mean is that most sports writers and commentators are inclined to look to the past to predict the future.
This tendency is very much on display in numerous articles making predictions about the upcoming NBA season (for example, read the ESPN series which polled nearly 50 "experts."). LA and SA have each won four titles in the past ten years. So the vast majority of analysts are ready to pick one of these two to come out of the WC next year. In the East, Boston won two years ago, Cleveland had the best record last year, and Orlando made it to the finals, so each has their advocates. Certainly, this point of view makes a lot of sense. These are five good teams with proven talent and a record of accomplishment in the playoffs. It makes sense to pick these guys as the odds-on-favorites to do it again. However, in the real world last years winners are not always next year's best teams. How many expected the Magic to win the East? Almost no one. Who predicted that Denver would make the WC Finals? Almost no one. Sportswriters rarely have the courage or insight to predict that a team will win until it already has.
This brings us to our beloved Blazers. The conventional wisdom is that they will be good, but that they will not win in the Playoffs until..... well until, they win in the Playoffs. Need I point out that this sort of reasoning is rather circular? ESPN's panel of experts predicted the Blazers to finish third behind LA and SA in the regular season. But not one person predicted that the Blazers would win the WC. By contrast, one pundit each picked Dallas and Denver to win the West.
Marc Stein, who publishes the ESPN Power Rankings, was even less generous. He ranked the Blazers ninth in the league, behind the big three from the east, and behind not only LA and SA, but also behind Denver and Dallas in the west.
To me, this kind of thinking is both short sighted and cowardly. I think the Blazer's championship window is open, now. That doesn't mean that I think they will win this year. It does mean that I think they have a reasonable, if small, chance. It does mean that I think the Blazers will be among the league's elite this year and in the mix come next spring. I see LA and Cleveland as the favorites, but I think the Blazers have as much chance as the second tier of Boston, San Antonio, and Orlando. Make the jump to read my reasons why:
1) Many analysts are failing to appreciate just how good the Blazer's where last season.
Hollinger's Power Rankings, which are based on stats rather than subjective criteria, had the Blazer's third at the end of last season. A lot of pundits seem to feel that the Blazer's "overachieved" last year and they speculate that the team may have trouble living up to last year's 54 wins. The data suggest otherwise, the Blazer's point margin actually suggested that the Blazer's could have been expected to have an even better record. As has been frequently noted, the Blazers had the most efficient offense in the league and ranked at or near the top in rebounding percentage. These kinds of stats are rarely fluky and tend to be very predictive of future success.
2) Season stats from last year tend to mask the Blazer's improvement over the coarse of the season.
The Blazers of November were not the same team that finished the season 19-6 in March and April. Portland was right there with Cleveland and LA in terms of dominance over the last month of the season. This reality tends to be overshadowed by the Blazers elimination by the Rockets. But the Rockets were a particularly bad match-up for the Blazers and should be given real credit for taking the Lakers to seven games without Yao.
I think it is reasonable to expect that the Blazers of this season will look more like the team from April rather than the team from November. Portland's improvement was particularly noticeable on the defensive end. The Blazers ranked 18th in defensive efficiency at the All-Star break and had improved to 11th by the end of the season. In order to move up that much, that quickly, they must have been near the top five over the last couple of months. Oden's return from injury was a big part of the team's improvement. I expect the Blazers to open this season defensively near where they finished it last season. If they do, there is little doubt that they will be among the league's elite teams from opening night on.
3) The Blazers have a lot of players who can be reasonably expected to improve
Jscot did an outstanding job of laying out the case for rational exuberance in his "Da BOM" post. I won't waste your time, or mine, by repeating it. Suffice it to say, there is every reason to expect that a number of the Blazers young players are likely to be better this year than last. We don't need miraculous improvements to move ahead, just the natural maturation that can be expected of most young players. Furthermore, the team has so much depth, that we don't need improvement from every player to be significantly better overall. We just need some of our young guys to take the next step:
3A) As many have noted, Oden is key to the Blazers improvement
A lot of the speculation about Oden tends to be binary: is he a bust, or isn't he? Will he stay out of foul trouble, or won't he? Will he he get his quickness back, or won't he? On one hand, these all seem like reasonable questions. On the other hand, they miss the mark. Oden is likely to improve marginally in several areas; the real question is to what extent will these marginal improvements add up to a significant improvement in his overall effectiveness?
I see the Oden Equation as something like this: 5% reduction in body weight + 5% improvement in vertical leap + 5% improvement in lateral quickness + 10% improvement in conditioning + 20% improvement in confidence + unknown improvement in offensive technique = a much more effective GO
We won't know the final value of the equation until we actually see it on the floor, but I think there is every reason to be optimistic.
3B) SF: Webster/Batum
We will never really know how much Webster's injury affected the Blazer's performance last year. I had high hopes for Martell last season, and felt he was ready for a break-out season. Reports from pre-camp practices give me hope that the break-out may still be coming. On the other hand, Batum far exceeded expectations and demonstrated that he has all the tools to be an effective defensive specialist. Nic's offensive potential remains an open question. He shows lots of potential, but has not yet shown consistent production on the floor. Despite Batum's promise, the Blazers paid a real price for playing him last season. He was frequently a non-factor on offense, and his presence on the floor with Pryz and Blake left the Blazers with only 2 1/2 scorers on the floor (Roy, LMA, + Blake from outside). As Houston demonstrated in the playoffs you can make a team with only 2 1/2 scorers really struggle.
With the return of Webster, the arrival of Miller, and the emergence of Oden, the Blazers have the ability to put five effective scorers on the floor at the same time. If those five are working effectively together, they are going to be extremely difficult to stop.
Hopefully, Nate will now have the luxury of choosing between a defensive SF Batum, who can score, or an offensive SF Webster, who can defend. If we need to cool off an opposing player, send in Batum. If we need additional scoring, send in Webster. Over time, one of the two will establish themselves as the more effective player.
4) A lot of folks don't seem to realize just how good Andre Miller is, nor what a difference he is likely to make.
Miller isn't Billups. Billups is a couple of years younger, is a bit better defender, and has a significantly better outside shot,; however, they do have a lot of similarities. Both are very crafty veterans with very high BBIQ. Both are extremely poised and play within themselves with a firm grasp of their own limitations. Both are outstanding floor generals who know how and where to get the ball to teammates.
I know that a lot of folks are rightfully appreciative of the role that Blake played in the Blazer's success last season, however, make no mistake about it, Miller is a very substantial upgrade. Miller ranked 12th among all PGs in terms of PER at 18.71. 12th makes it sound like he is "pretty good, but not great." If you look a little closer, you will like what you see. Miller is within a single point of ranking 6th, while more than a point above Sessions who is ranked 13th. Furthermore, other metrics suggest that Miller is even more valuable. In terms of "Value Added" Miller ranks 5th, only behind All-Stars CP3, Parker, DWill, and DHarris. Miller also ranks 5th in "Estimated Wins Added" behind the same four All-Stars. Miller is actually above Billups, Nash, and Rondo in both these metrics.
Yes, Miller is definitely getting old, but his production shows no sign of decline. His PER and TS% have both improved each of the past two seasons. Even his 3pt percentage (on a very limited number of attempts) has improved somewhat. Many have questioned whether Miller is going to be a good fit next to Roy because of his limited abilities as an outside shooter. This is definitely a legitimate question. We won't know until we see them in action, but I think looking at Miller's experience next to Iguodala, should be reassuring to all of us. Iggy is even more of an off the dribble player than Roy, and yet he and Miller both prospered together in Philly. I think it is reasonable to expect a few bumps as Miller and the team get to know each other, but there is little doubt in my mind that Miller makes Portland much better for the next year or two.
4A) Backup PG
Not only is Miller a very significant upgrade over Blake, Blake is a significant upgrade over Sergio and Bayless 1.0 at backup PG. Just as Oden's arrival had a huge impact by solidifying our center rotation and reducing the number of minutes we were reliant on LMA or Frye playing center, Miller and Blake solidifies our PG rotation.
Furthermore, I am probably in the minority on this point, but I think there is a real chance that Bayless may yet earn some minutes this season. Bayless struggled in three areas last year shooting, team defense, and effective distribution of the ball on offense. Having said that, because Bayless was so effective getting to the rim and the free-throw line he still scored at an effective rate per possession. If Bayless can find his shot, and the Blazer shooting coach singled him out for praise, he can be a very effective offensive option. The bigger question is whether or not he can improve his defense. It seems to me that this is Bayless' real opening. PG defense is likely to remain a real weakness. Neither Miller or Blake have the speed to stay with the league's uber-quick PGs. If Bayless can demonstrate to Nate that he can become our best PG defender, he may earn some minutes. Regardless of whether it is Blake or Bayless 2.0, the back-up PG situation is likely to be dramatically improved.
5) The key to the Blazers success in the playoffs is home court advantage
I expect the Blazers to approach or exceed 60 wins. I realize that many are less optimistic for various reasons. I have to take this opportunity to give our Fearless Leader, Dave, a bit of a hard time. If my memory still serves, last year Dave, who is always concerned about inflated expectations, predicted 46 wins. The team blew that cautious prediction away. I understand that 60 is a challenge, but barring major injuries to one of the big three (or now big 4) I think it is very realistic to think the Blazers can achieve that level of success.
I fully expect the Blazers to win their Division, and I think it is even conceivable they could challenge the Lakers for best record in the Western conference. The Lakers have more older players and less overall depth. One injury to one of their top rotation players, and the door may be open for the Blazers. If the stars align correctly, the Lakers could be coming to the Rose Garden for the WC Finals. Wouldn't that be something?
Again, I am not saying that the Blazers are favorites to win it all. Their lack of playoff experience clearly makes them underdogs, but they are underdogs with a lot of bite. At this point, I think the Lakers and the Blazers are arguably the two most talented teams in the Western Conference. By the time the playoffs roll around, SA will have 7 players over the age of 30. If they all stay healthy, they may be in the discussion, but that is a very big if. Denver had a magical season and lost a couple of key reserves. Dallas also has a lot of older players and still lacks a decent center. NO just doesn't have enough quality players to complement CP3.
Anything may be possible, but I think the smart money is on LA and Portland in the WC Finals. LA's huge advantage in experience would make them a significant favorite, but I think in terms of talent, the Blazers are the only team in the conference who could give them a real run for their money.
Conventional wisdom may argue that the Blazers are at least a year away, but I think there are plenty of reasons the Blazers deserve to, at least, be in the discussion. If I am prophetic, remember, you read it here on the eve of training camp.
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Greg Oden is the one who can really make this happen, but you don’t say anything about him. Do you disagree or just consider him too iffy?
I totally agree.
I sort of considered that well covered by jscott’s post. You are probably right that I should have shared my thinking on Oden.
I think GO is likely to be significantly better in terms of confidence, fouls, defensive recognition, conditioning and offensive effectiveness. However, he does not need to be dramatically better in all areas for the Blazers to be among the league’s elite teams. If he can average 28-30 minutes per game and about 15 pts, 11 bds, 2 blks. We will be in great shape. Greg is young and he is going to be up and down; he will be great on some nights and struggling with fouls on others.
I think Greg is sure to impact the game in several areas:
1) he is already a tremendous rebounder. If his quickness and his lift are back to near pre-micro levels, he is going to be even better this season.
2) I think he is going to alter a ton of shots once he gets his conditioning and quickness back. Pryz is a real force in the key, but i expect to be even better by December/January.
3) Greg will require significant defensive attention even if he is not getting a ton of attempts. That is going to stress opposing defenses and make life easier for LMA and Roy.
4) I expect Miller to have a significant role in helping Greg’s offensive production. Neither Blake, nor Sergio was particularly good at entry passes into the post, nor very good at pick and rolls. Miller is going to shine in both areas. Miller is also the best alley oop passer in the league. If Greg gets a little more vertical lift he and Andre are going to hook up for some monster jams.
5) Greg playing increasing minutes will free up Pryz to be even more aggressive during the time he is on the floor. Both in terms of oxygen and fouls, he will need to pace him self less than he did last year.
by upper left corner on Sep 27, 2009 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I disagree. I think Our window is more reliant on Brandon Roy. I think a legitimate superstat and a very good big rotation is enough to win a ring, which we already have.
by dario argento on Sep 28, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions
I disagree with your disagreement...well, kind of...
Brandon is solid. It’s almost like a contract, and his contingency has been removed. Greg’s contingency is wide open.
I think what people are saying is that there’s a lot more uncertainty with Oden and that he is more likely to have a net impact over last year because of how he played against what his ceiling is.
by BlazerNation on Sep 29, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
No one is going to pick a team that lost in the first round
after missing the playoffs for six years over other teams that have played in the conference or championship finals.
Because they don't have the talent? Or because the pundits simply won't acknowledge the talent until AFTER the team wins?
I understand why they are not going to make the prediction. I am simply suggesting that they are wrong.
Marc Stein putting them below Dallas and Denver is particularly egregious.
I think the Blazers are pretty unique in the recent history of the league. I can’t think of another team with so much talent and such a dramatic progression.
by upper left corner on Sep 27, 2009 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Dave himself said on the podcast that the Blazers' window doesn't really open until next season.
Are you saying that Dave’s opinion is “short-sighted and cowardly”?
I think Dave is very, very cautious about raising expectations.
I think that makes sense in his role as operator of the team’s largest fan website. Managing expectations to avoid disappointment is probably a smart thing to do. However, it doesn’t mean he is always right:
Last year he predicted 46 wins, and the team won 54. Jscot actually had it about right with a prediction of 55 wins. I projected 50-51 wins last year. This year I expect 60.
Dave thinks the window doesn’t open till next year. I disagree.
I do think it takes courage to see the breakout coming before it happens, rather than after it happens.
by upper left corner on Sep 27, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions
It takes no courage to assert here that the Blazers are a contender.
Go to Silver Screen & Roll and bet your house or car that the Blazers will finish ahead of the Lakers this year, THEN you can talk about courage.
I'm with you
to be honest, since no one here ever gets called out for being wrong on predictions, except the more conservative ones (and even then usually just Dave) I’m not sure where courage plays into this at all.
Point well taken, but....
….obviously I’m not talking about physical courage or even about the cajones necessary for high stakes gambling.
However, I think I have a point too: sports pundits tend to take the “safe route” of picking “proven” teams and rarely “see” new powers until they have already arrived. To the extent that fans make predictions that are worth more than a warm bucket of piss, they/we tend to be reluctant to be dismissed as extreme “homers.”, I am attempting to argue that all these forces tend to obscure the rational reasons the Blazers should be in the mix for next season.
by upper left corner on Sep 28, 2009 2:35 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think any NBA guru dismisses those reasons,
to the extent that they’ve done enough research on the team to know that those reasons exist. I just think the youth and inexperience of the players is a bigger factor historically than all the reasons you listed.
From what I’ve read from the savants, they feel the Blazers are close. Sean Deveney ranks them #6 in his preseason poll (see my fanshot on this). No one is saying the Blazers have no shot at the title, just that they aren’t in the top level of contenders. I agree with that assessment.
Most of those reasons in your list can be qualified with an if:
- If the Blazers can pick-up this season where they left-off last season.
- If Greg, Nico, Rudy, and the other young players continue to improve.
- If Martell can regain the game he was showing before his injury.
- If Andre’s game shows no decline and he and the team adjust well to each other.
- If they get home-court advantage.
As Dave and others have so often said, the amount of success a team can reasonably be expected to achieve is inversely proportional to the number of ifs attached to that success. The Blazers still have more ifs than the teams ranked ahead of them.
You and I agree that the Blazers’ championship window is now open. I just think that to get through that opening they will have to strip naked, oil-up, and lose a lot of skin.
by MiledAnimal on Sep 28, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Again, I see your point, but other teams are facing some rather large questions too.
For example, SA has seven players over the age of thirty including two of there biggest stars who are attempting to come back from significant joint injuries.
Can Shaq and Ilgauskas keep it together for one more season? How about KGs knee, and how much does Sheed still have in the tank?
To a certain extent, several of teams are “unproven” even if they have had significant playoff success with some of the players on their current rosters.
Once again, I am not disputing the fact that LA and Cleveland are significant favorites. I am saying that the Blazers belong in the conversation with the other teams one level down. Teams I would characterize as having a legitimate chance to win the Championship if a number of factors break in their favor.
by upper left corner on Sep 28, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Notice I did not mention injury as an if factor?
We can speculate about injuries to every team in the league. I prefer to assume continued health when players begin the season in good health. I also assume injuries will occur to every team during the season, but because it is impossible to know which teams will get hit worst, the best we can do is assume a roughly equal hit to all teams we are evaluating. So saying that the top teams have ifs based on possible injury means the same thing for the Blazers and is a non-factor for our discussion.
The real point is that these Blazers have won nothing and proven nothing in the playoffs. There’s little in the way of a track record. The teams ranked above them — and some ranked below them — not only have a track record, they’ve won a playoff series or two.
I think you’re really just peeved at Marc Stein ranking us #9. Don’t listen to that guy, he hates Blazer fans and enjoys ragging on our team the way a naughty boy enjoys shooting his BB gun at a hornets nest.
by MiledAnimal on Sep 28, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
How many of your "ifs" do we need to see major improvement?
Probably two. That’s not a lot.
The big factor here is we have a whole lot of ifs and we don’t need that many of them to happen.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Well, injury is more of a factor for an old team than a young one. So I think it's still valid.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I disagree
Every team has a whole load of “ifs”, despite what Dave says. “If” Kobe and Pau stay healthy, “if” Kobe’s game doesn’t start to decline earlier than expected, “if” Artest doesn’t go insane on court or get locked up off court, if Odom doesn’t go mental at key points, if, if, if.
The question is not how many ifs you have, but how probable/likely all of those ifs are.
Many of those ifs for the Blazers aren’t all that unlikely. We already know Greg is in better condition, and he played without foul trouble at the USA camp, so it is a pretty likely if that he is going to be at least marginally better this year in the foul department, and at least marginally better in other areas as well.
We don’t need most of those ifs to be a better team than last year. We only need a few of the likely ones to pan out for us to be a better team.
Everyone assumes the L@kers are going to pick up this season where they left off last season. It isn’t an “if” for the L@kers. Why do people make it an “if” for Portland?
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
I think you answered the question as to the quality of "if's"
right there, at least about the Lakers. The injury one is pointless to add, because it applies to everyone. “If” Brandon and LaMarcus get hurt, “if” Dwight and Shard get hurt, etc., etc., which makes it largely a wash. Obviously for the spurs and Celtics it’s more of an issue since their key players have a recent injury history, but if you’re going to throw it as an “if” for one team, it has to be there for every team.
Realistically, the Lakers have only a couple "if"’s. First, can they stay motivated, and a massive second one in the form of Crazy Pills. Plus, they have essentially a no risk proposition in the form of Bynum’s expected improvement.
Comparing that to us where we need 4 or 5 uncertain things to really click for us to win a title next year is a bit of false equivalence. Sure, most of the things we need to be a better team are fairly likely and I personally would be pretty shocked if we weren’t but to make the leap to winning a title next year? Most of those are a lot more up in the air.
Except that everyone is building into their Blazers analysis
“if” Oden is healthy.
As to winning a title, my comment is below:
The window is open, but not very far yet. We probably aren’t the best team, but it isn’t always the best team that wins. Sometimes injuries change things, sometimes a team just gets hot at the right time.
Next year, we’ll probably be the best team.
Yes, we need some uncertain things to click for us to win the title. We aren’t the favorites, not even close.
And LA has both Odom and Artest crazy pills. And with Odom, they have the “just came off a contract year, wonder what will happen” thing. And they have the fact that other than Bynum, any change in performance from any of their key players is likely to be downward — they aren’t young and improving.
What is the likelihood that none of our young players improve significantly, that Miller doesn’t help significantly, that Oden isn’t in better condition and more effective, and that Martell comes back and makes no contribution? Virtually nil. Some of those things are going to happen. The “if” for the other teams in the league is “if” Portland’s sophomores don’t take the normal freshman to sophomore leap in productivity, because if even two of them do, it’s going to have a major impact.
So I’ll say this. The only thing that will keep us from winning at least four more games this year than last year is the kind of injuries that would also deep-six any other team. And any team that wins over 55 games is a legitimate threat to win it all.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Well, as far as Oden
he gets factored in the same way that people factor in KG with the Celtics and Manu/Duncan with the Spurs, in that past history has shown it may be a little more of a concern. Talking about injury ifs for guys like Kobe, Gasol, Dwight, Roy, LeBron, et al is a completely different beast because those guys have never been injured for extended periods, so you’re banking on something happening that goes completely against past history. It’s certainly within the realm of possibility, but if it applies to everyone, then it cancels out.
My point being that the total of our questions necessary to win a title both in terms of quantity and quality is more significant than teams like the Lakers, Cavs and Magic (my three favorites for next year). Sure, the odds of every one of our questions being answered negatively is virtually nil, but in terms of winning a title, the odds of enough being satisfied are pretty slim, too. I think everyone would expect to finish with a better regular season record than last year, but that’s still a long ways from winning. We’re firmly in “dark horse” territory now, and while I wouldn’t be surprised if we finished with a top three or four record in the league, I would be surprised (pleasantly) if that translated into a finals trip.
Sure, we talk about “60-63 win teams can win a title”; of course they can. Teams with 54 wins have won titles, but that didn’t mean we were realistic contenders heading into the playoffs last year. Recent playoff success has seemed to be by far the most important predictor of a team’s ability to win in the postseason, and outside of the 2008 Celtics, no teams in the last 30 years have won a title without having at least won one playoff series the previous year. So for me to think we have a shot at bucking this trend and winning the title and not just a series or two, I’d need basically every single one of our questions to be answered extremely positively. While I have no doubt that one or two questions will turn out extremely well, the odds of every single one of them turning out extremely well are probably about the same as every single one turning out negatively, which, like you said, is slim.
Were we actually disagreeing here?
My point being that the total of our questions necessary to win a title both in terms of quantity and quality is more significant than teams like the Lakers, Cavs and Magic
We’re firmly in "dark horse" territory now, and while I wouldn’t be surprised if we finished with a top three or four record in the league, I would be surprised (pleasantly) if that translated into a finals trip.
I would take these two quotes as the essence of your comment, and I actually don’t think either upper left corner or I would disagree with them at all.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
"Next year, we’ll probably be the best team."
Its conceivable we could be the best team next year. I don’t think we’ll have reached the level of the Lakers and Cavs at that point though.
Perhaps that's my optimism coming through
but I think we’ll surpass the L@kers, and I can’t read the impact of Shaq on Cleveland. That’s a big risk they’ve taken (I would have taken it, too). But we don’t even know if he’ll be in Cleveland next year, and I’m not sure how many more effective years Z is going to have.
They also may have to deal with a Delonte West implosion. I wouldn’t bet on them being one of the top two teams next year.
I also wouldn’t bet against them. I just can’t read how this thing is going to work out for them.
And I would never count them out as long as LeBron is there. Even if they are only the 10th best team, he could go on a tear in the playoffs that would take them all the way.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Agreed
And conversely, I’m not ruling out considering us a much better team if we finish with the same record as last year. Getting to play something like 25 teams on the tail end of a back to back was kind of a hidden benefit for us, as Barrett pointed out. Now, we not only have to play more rested teams, but teams will be taking us more seriously, too.
That's right, but...
Every year there is a team or two who shocks the basketball world. I agree with the article. In fact, the sentiments are exactly what I’ve been thinking for months.
by BlazerNation on Sep 29, 2009 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
rec....realistic optimism
i got us at 58-60 wins for the same reasons. Natural progression and an added facilitator. People talk about our D needing the upgrade more then our O because statistically the D was ranked lower but like you said, our D was good by the end of the year and will improve with age. It was the O that was in need of help against top tier defenses. We need easy looks , not B going 1 on 3 or a LA deep jumper over and over, Miller will get LA and Greg easier buckets and that will make us better and imo the 4th best team right now behind la, bos,and cle. Good read, thanks
"show me a good loser and i'll show you a loser" - coach
I'm not "hurryup09" for nothing
For years now, I’ve seen ‘09-’10 as the season when the Blazers’ championship window opens. As you say, they’re not favorites yet by any means. But the favorites don’t win every season, and I feel the ‘09-’10 Blazers have as good a shot as anyone other than a healthy Laker, Celtic, or Spurs team.
On one point, I think you don’t even go far enough. You rightly point out that Miller is an upgrade over Blake as starting point guard. But the more significant point is that Blake is a MAJOR upgrade over the rookie Jerryd Bayless as back-up point guard. Barring injury, there will be a rock-solid point guard on the floor for the Blazers at all times this season, and that’s huge for this team’s prospects.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Agreed on backup PG
I went back and added a few more thoughts to my original post including a riff on the backup PG rotation. Thanks for the input.
by upper left corner on Sep 28, 2009 5:56 AM PDT up reply actions
Great minds think alike
Your additions make a strong case stronger. Barring injury, I project the ‘09-’10 Blazers to defy conventional wisdom by winning 60 games and making it to the WCF. If the Lakers aren’t as fortunate in the injury dept, the Blazers could even take it a step further. And the geezer Celtics & Cavs hardly seem unbeatable. It’ll be an upset if those teams DON’T suffer key injuries, especially to the Celts’ Big 3 and to Shaq. Talk about the over-the-hill gang…
I’d call the ’09 Blazers a serious dark horse to go all the way. Which makes this season the most anticipated one for me since the Drexler/ Kersey/ Porter days. (I never believed in the ’sheed Blazers—even when they made the WCF. No character.)
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
I have been trying to temper my enthusiasm
as to not be labled a homer,however i am a homer.I predicted 55 last year & was scoffed at.After I went over the schedule for this year i figured it at 62 barring major injury. I don’t see Denver repeating what they did last year as they have lost depth & some of there players have a history if injuries. S.A. will coast in the reg. season to stay healthy. I got 62 with 2 more home wins & 6 more road wins. The window is definately open.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
Are you me?
I’m at 62, and was at 55 last year, too. The year before I predicted 39 (after Greg’s injury).
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
I'm the Irish version.
Instead of ruling the world i just want to rule a pub.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
I'm not sure that's just Irish
There’s a whole lot of Scots who feel the same.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Quite true
I also know some Aussies who would join up,so which pub shall we target.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 28, 2009 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions
You'll have to decide
I’m busy with planning world dominion, so you’ll have to handle this without me.
If you are typical Scots and Irish, you won’t be able to coordinate anything, though, unless you decide to target an English pub. But then, the goal is to take it over, not destroy it, so I think this is doomed to failure.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Curse foiled again.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 28, 2009 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions
As an American ...
… of Scots-Irish and Slovene decent, I realize there is a better option.
Brew your own beer.
hakkaa päälle !
I like this take
and to an extent you’re right on the money. Sports writers and pundits have to hedge their bets when throwing out predictions for the year. It’s safe to predict the Lakers as favorites. However, risky predictions just for their own sake aren’t that valuable.
LA and SA have each won four titles in the past ten years.
Two teams have combined for nearly 80% of the championships since ‘99. Going back further, the Celtics and Lakers have combined for over half of the total championships in NBA history. Thus far it doesn’t make sense to make grand predictions for teams that haven’t proven themselves. We take note of Orlando (slightly) exceeding expectations because it was (slightly) unexpected. Most of the time in the NBA, it’s business as usual.
Additionally, for every example of a team exceeding expectations and making a great playoff run I’m sure there are equivalent examples of teams that were supposed to do well that never put it together. The Mavs in ’06. The Baby Bulls. How many pundits picked the SSOL Suns to go all the way?
Basically, I need a REALLY good reason (other than my Blazer fandom) to pick our squad as an NBA finals participant over teams like the Lakers and Spurs. I need a pretty darn good reason to pick the Blazers over the Spurs or Lakers for a WCF berth. I go down the list of reasons to pick these teams for deep playoff runs and it’s all very even until we get to recent playoff success.
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
I think you´re right in your observations but not so optimist in your predictions.
Time will tell but I´ve predicted 64 wins.
Besides everything you said, I think we´ll see an increased commitment (read last Batum´s interview where he talks about players conversations), increased competition inside the team and more experience playing together (Bayless, Oden, Rudy and Batum hadn´t played with this team before).
If the mountain come to you, run. It´s a landslide.
Don't like the answer? Ask a different question.
Very nice post, thanx. Much Agreement.
But, ask who is Most Likely…
will get you LAL/ CC/ BC/ SAS.
Most likely to break out of the pack with a real chance? Add DN/OM/PT.
The Blazers are now in the elite. Fans say the middle to upper end, critics say tail end. So does the vegas line with the odds on NBA Champion “Futures” (not sure if its exactly how they work but I’ll use it as equivalent to odds at per $100).
1 LAL 180
2 CC 300
3 BC 500
4 SAS 800
5 DN 1,200
6 OM 1,200
7 PT 1,500
all else 4,000 / 10,000
http://www.sportsbook.com/livesports/indexmember.php?sportsname=basketball
Ask for “Most Likely” and that’s what you’ll get. LAL better than 2:1
Ask "Who has a legitimate Long-Shot chance? Blazers.
Ask for “A Great Chance to Beat the Odds” and this homer thinks they are a legitimate 10:1 or better, so, a good bet. We know the Blazers can beat every one of those teams. They have to prove they can cut it at that upper level. They need to beat those teams on the road.
1. I thought they overachieved last year even though I predicted they would win 56. But that was based on a healthy squad all coming in early to camp and hitting the ground running. Then came the injuries that disrupted the preseason and the starting lineup. Then came more injuries. It went from anticipating extra wins to delayed development. I recalc’ed to 46 as realistic. They beat that primarily because of …
2. the significant improvement between All-Star game and season end. Just consolidating their second half pace makes them a better team. Any improvement over the second half pace means a double impact over a full season.
3. Couldn’t be better for a hardcore basketball jones; 8 guys under 25 with nice to great skills already and upside for all. That’s a lot of room for likely improvement and no reason to suspect and downturn from any on the squad.
4. Andre is a solid baller and smooth killer like Roy. For an old man he can still do a few things…
http://www.nba.com/video/channels/play_of_the_day/2009/03/18/nba_20090318_pod.nba/
5. Here I disagree: Home court advantage, aka chasing the win total, will not be best for the development they need to win in the playoffs. They need to be willing to experiment with different line-ups and combinations and they need to spread playing time to preserve Roy and give all the kids a chance to play. I think they would still win 58 and have more tools for injuries and playoffs. Think of it like this: does Roy taking all of the game-winning shot opportunities help others develop that trait and confidence? its becoming a better team that will win playoffs, not where they start the series.
Oden 1-5: yes yes yes yes yes. Oden is the Blazersedge!
Lots of yummy goodness in your post.
Your point about the sports book odds is a good one. I agree that I like the Blazers at 15-1, and agree with your 10-1 odds. Think I will plunk down a $100 on the team this season. It would make a victory just that much sweeter.
Regarding your comments about home court advantage. I agree that it should not be the sole focus of the team. We do need to try lots of combos, rest Roy and LMA, and develop young players. I do think winning the Division and securing one of the top three seeds is critical.
I think Nate will have to adjust as the season develops. If we are close to the Lakers at the All-Star break, I think you have to make a real effort. If we are in a dog-fight with Denver, we need to go flat out. If we are somewhere in the middle, we can relax a bit more.
by upper left corner on Sep 28, 2009 4:40 AM PDT up reply actions
The window is open
but not very far yet. We probably aren’t the best team, but it isn’t always the best team that wins. Sometimes injuries change things, sometimes a team just gets hot at the right time.
Next year, we’ll probably be the best team.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Nice summary of the situation
How come it took me 15 paragraphs to say what you said in one sentence?
Oh well, hope my thoughts added something to the conversation. Did you see that I added a bunch more to my original post?
by upper left corner on Sep 28, 2009 4:25 AM PDT up reply actions
LOL
No, I hadn’t noticed. Good stuff.
If I’m so good at boiling things down to one sentence, how come my fanposts are always long?
Obviously, somebody needs to break down the supporting info, or the concise summary just develops into a “I think” “Well, I think” argument. By putting the supporting info out there, people can discuss the various points and the relative strength of them, which makes for good discussion. But sometimes, once all the work of giving the supporting argument is done, it helps to boil it all down, too.
Nice post before the update, even better now.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Sometimes it is difficult to know when to expand on a thought and when to just shut up.
I feel like I repeat myself a lot, but when I try to be more concise, I frequently get comments that lead me back into rephrasing the same general point of view. Sometimes I wish I could just number my arguments. Somebody would make a comment and I could just respond with “22” or “13b.” It would save a lot of typing. Occasionally I even wish I could take this approach in my discussions with my lovely, charming wife. Oh well, if we didn’t occasionally repeat ourselves, how would we pass the time?
I really enjoyed your Da BOM post and as usual find that we share a common perspective. I couldn’t be more excited about this season. The last time I was this psyched was before the 1990 season when we got Buck Williams. I remember picking up my paper and thinking “that’s it, that is the missing piece.”
I felt the same way when we got Miller this summer. I think a lot of people don’t even begin to realize how good he is. Getting him for 2 + 1, for $20 million was a major score in my mind. Hopefully, he comes in really hungry. It is amazing that he has played at such a high level for so many years without ever getting the level of recognition that I think he deserves. He is quiet, and he has never been on a truly elite team, but his play has been almost at an All-Star level for a long time. Hopefully he sees this next 2-3 years as his time to shine.
by upper left corner on Sep 28, 2009 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I love Miller's contract
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Echoing what jscot said
You have to open the window before you can climb through it. I think I’m up there on the homer scale at BlazerSedge and agree with a lot of the OP’s analysis except for the 60 wins part.
I don’t know how to look up stats or even the meaning of stats, but one thing I’m sure of is that winning 60 games is hard. I do not think it happens that often. I think expecting 60 wins fails to account for the losses that will probably come from the other good teams in the NBA.
That's why you predicted 62 last year
You’re going all realist/pessimist on me now. You’re just a contrarian. Sometimes contrarians do well, but sometimes they get burned. This year, we’re going to fry you.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
That was because someone already picked my number
If I would have been the first guy to post in that thread, I might have gone mid-50’s. I think the Blazers are going to win their division and get to the WCF, I just don’t think 60+ wins is easy to do in the West. I don’t think they’ll have over 56 wins this year.
You were wrong by 8 last year
so now I expect 64.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Yeah, that's your prediction, isn't it?
I’m in good company.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
I picked 63. One of us HAS to be right.
by MiledAnimal on Sep 28, 2009 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm a little confused
You think we can win 63, but you think it will take a virtual miracle for us to win a championship?
Do you know how many teams have won that many games and NOT won a championship? I don’t know the percentages, but I would guess at least 1/2 of the teams that have won 63 have won it all.
In 1977, a team that won only 49 won it all.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
In 2006, a team that won 67 lost in the first round.
Virtual miracle for us to win a ring this year? Don’t know if I’d go with odds that long. Let’s just say we’re a dark horse.
OK
I’d agree with that, and ulc would too, from what he said.
So what are we talking about here, anyway?
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Go Balzers
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
I should hate you.
Because in the end, there can be only one.
If the mountain come to you, run. It´s a landslide.
European wars
have always been so profitable and uplifting.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Like our cars, I guess
The market for our wars is sometimes even bigger overseas, if not as concentrated.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Lets' be honest here.
Europeans don’t know how to wage war anymore.
We may not make the best cars any longer, but no one tops Americans when it comes to war.
hakkaa päälle !
Just watch us
It may not be very long.
Economic upheaval, social strife, growing Muslim population bring racial conflict.
Within 20 years, a demagogue is going to come to power in some European country, and who knows where that will go?
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
We're like Dictatorbusters
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Agree with your points, add road wins!
I agree with and provide the following to support your points. I think the metric that will reveal if we are primed for a deep playoff run is road wins.
“1) Many analysts are failing to appreciate just how good the Blazer’s where last season….the Blazers had the most efficient offense in the league and ranked at or near the top in rebounding percentage.”
Statistically, the blazers played the best DEFENSE in the league over the last ten games of the regular season! See below!
“2) Season stats from last year tend to mask the Blazer’s improvement over the coarse of the season.”
Over the last 10 games of the regular season, we played incredibly well, and much of this was DEFENSIVE, not the efficient offense we heard of all year:
* #1 in opponents points allowed (wide margin)
* #3 in opponents field goal percentage
* #1 (tie) in opponents 3 point percentage
* #1 in opponents assists allowed (wide margin)
* #1 in opponents rebounds allowed (wide margin)
“3A) As many have noted, Oden is key to the Blazers improvement”
Oden had a fantastic rookie year per minute played, despite healing from microfracture surgery, never being in shape, and getting injured twice during the year. He seemed to never get in the flow of things, and got in foul trouble alot. Despite that, he put up once in a generation offensive rebounding numbers, and his shooting accuracy topped that of the rookie years of the all time great centers of the last 25 years. These are the two things you want from a center on offense: o-rebounds and accurate shooting.
According to basketball-reference.com, his rookie year offensive rebounding percentage was 15.7%. This is right up there with the rookie years of Rodman (15.6%) and Moses Malone (15.5%), and above Buck Williams (13.7%) and Barkley (12.5%). These are generally considered the greatest offensive rebounders in the last 35 years. Dwight Howard led the league in offensive rebounds this year by a far cry, and he had 13.8%.
Let’s look now at shooting, using true shooting , which factors in free throw shooting, as the metric. Here’s the results: ,Oden 0.599, Robinson 0.597, Shaq 0.584, Olajuwon 0.564, Ewing 0.526. Some have commented that Oden was less of an offensive focal point that the others, but if you normalize PER for USG, he comes out above everyone except Robinson.
Looking to his 2nd year, we can expect a big PER jump. Looking at the history of PER jump from rookie year to 2nd year for a long list of noteworthy big men, the average 2nd year PER jump is 2.5. This would take Oden’s PER to over 20 (20.63). This would be better than Dwight Howard’s 2nd year PER. This is mainly a jump in scoring from rookie to 2nd year when looking on a per 36 minute basis of about 2.5 points/36. If you add the 2.5 average to Oden’s rookie year number, you go from 14.8 to 17.3. So if Greg plays full starter minutes, he could be a 17/13 player.
The key will be staying out of foul trouble, which I think will improve alot as he’ll be in much better shape.
“4A) Backup PG. Not only is Miller a very significant upgrade over Blake, Blake is a significant upgrade over Sergio and Bayless 1.0 at backup PG.”
Point guard was an overall relative weakness for the Blazers last year, with a positional net PER of -0.2. Philly had a point guard positional net PER of 3.8 (3rd in league), which is about the same PER advantage the Blazers had at power forward (LaMarcus/Travis). So adding Miller is a very significant upgrade to the team. We covered quite well one of our weak PER areas, bringing in the PG from the team with the 3rd best net PER in the league.
Blake played 55% of PG minutes with a net PER of +1.2, so he outplayed his opposition. It was our backup PGs that take our rating negative: Sergio (30% of PG minutes at net PER -1.1) and Bayless (11% of PG minutes at net PER of -5.9).
So any minutes that effectively we replace Sergio/Bayless with Miller takes our PG net PER from -1.0 to +3.8, and any minutes that Miller displaces out of Blakes 55% increases of PG net PER from +1.2 to +3.8. To put these in context, Roy is 3rd in the league in SG net PER, at +6.1.
Great comment, lots of substantive analysis and excellent stats.
Let’s hear it for collective wisdom. Your stats confirm what an upgrade Miller is going to be, and how dominant Oden is likely to become.
by upper left corner on Sep 28, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Just one point
Don’t read too much into the last ten games, because the schedule was relatively soft. We were playing well at the end of the year, but the schedule helped us.
It would be a mistake to ignore the fact that we were a better team the last third of the season. But it would also be a mistake to assume that we were quite as good as we looked those last ten games.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Agree
10 games is a small sample size. I prefer looking at the post-All Star break games.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Even that is a flawed sample
1. We had a significantly easier schedule post-break than before the break.
2. Greg missed half of those games.
So it isn’t really a good predictor of what we’ll do this year.
Post-break, we played 14 away and 16 home. Only 7 of the away games were against winning teams, and a lot of the toughest away games (LA twice, Boston, Orlando, Utah twice, Denver once, Phoenix twice) were in the first half. We did have at San Antonio twice, but they were pretty much a shell by the second time we played them.
Less than 1/4 (7 of 30) post break were road games against winning teams. Before the break, it was 15 of 52, almost 30%.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Okay, point
But since half your games are road games and about half of opponents should be winning, a fourth of our games being road games against winning teams is fairly normal.
And yeah I know it was a weaker schedule, but it’s still a better sample than the last 10 games. Also basketball-reference.com can split stats post- and pre-all star break.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Yes, it's a better sample
Last year, we had 22 home and 22 away against winning teams, 19 home and away against losing teams.
We play in the West.
It’s not that our post-break schedule was “easy”, it might have been tougher than some Eastern teams faced. But it was easy compared to pre-break, and easy compared to what we’ll likely face this year.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
19-6 for March and April
Almost one third of the season. I agree the schedule was somewhat easier, but the play was definitely better. Greg started to show a bit more. Blake was back from injury. Sergio played better for the last month.
I get folks wanting to “see it before they believe it”, but not expecting improvement from this team is just silly or stupid.
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions
"It would be a mistake to ignore the fact that we were a better team the last third of the season. But it would also be a mistake to assume that we were quite as good as we looked those last ten games."
Agreed. Our play at home down the stretch was unreal though— we were just destroying quality opponents at the RG— Lakers, Spurs, Jazz, Suns, Nuggets… we beat them all by 20+.
Yes
And the thing that really was good about that is not that we were shooting the lights out, but that the defensive intensity was there from the start of the game.
That is repeatable.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
And not just at home, either
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
I completely agree. I don't think by any means we should be considered favorites, but you have to at least consider the blazers as a legitimate contender now.
The main reason? Brandon Roy is a superstar RIGHT NOW, so there’s no reason a team with a true superstar, a very solid big rotation, and a very good supporting cast can’t win it all.
A lot of people on here on here thinks our title hopes rest FULLY and ONLY on the shoulders of Greg Oden, but I disagree. I think Roy is the real catalyst. A good big rotation can win it all, as we saw last year with LA, and the year before with Boston. ( yes, Garnett was a dominant big man, but not a center, and LMA is already on par with the stats of 07-08 Garnett) A superstar is more important than a dominant center in this posters humble opinion.
I am a big LMA fan
His Off. #‘s may be on the level of KG’s of 07-08 but defensively it’s not close. I hope LMA can make that jump soon, otherwise I do agree with the offensive firepower we have & an improved team D we can compete with anyone.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 28, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
True. LMA so far is not even close to KG's defensive prowess, but I think he will get there.
He has a very similar body type, and at times seems like defensive genius. He had sequences last year where he completely shut down the other teams whole offense. He has the tools, and at times shows he has the mental acuity. Experience alone I think will propel him into elite defensive status.
by dario argento on Sep 28, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions
This is why it drives me crazy when people label LMA as soft
People forget he just turned 24.I always here this about Greg, bigs take longer to develop. LMA is nowhere near his prime, he will get better. I also am of the belief that his game is a perfect compliment to GO when they learn to play together the Blazers will dominate at both ends of the court.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 28, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
you think he´ll get there?
I am very optimistic about LMA future, but I do not expect him to become a Garnett type player on defense.
If that happens we will win many many many titles.
I don't know if LMA will get to Garnetts leve on D or not.
I do however think he will make significant improvement in the next 2-5 years,with several of the other young players on this team doing the same. Portland will have a dominant team on both ends of the court. Team defense is the key the chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link type of thing.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
What he said. No, LMA will probably never be as good as Garnett defensively, but he could.
Like I said before, at times last year he looked like a defensive specialist, so he has the capability. Most all world defenders in the NBA will tell you defense is about mental toughness, so I truly believe it’s up to him.
by dario argento on Sep 28, 2009 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
LMA will never get anywhere near Garnett's level on D.
Garnett is a former DPOY. You are going to tell me with a straight face that you think LMA can get to that category? I’d settle for good defense from him at this point.
All the physical tools are there
It’s a question of mental commitment.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Being a solid defender
is more a case of mental commitment. Being an all timer like KG is more about passion and devotion. Anyone can be a solid defender in the league on par with the a borderline 2nd team all-defense guy, but unless a guy is truly devoted to it, they’re not going to rise to the level of a Garnett.
I think by now, as a 23/24 year old, it’s pretty clear that LaMarcus doesn’t have any particular passion for defense. Not that he’s Amare or something, but I don’t think he relishes it in the way that KG does. I could see him developing into a Sheed-like defender (in one of his typical years, not his all-world play in 2004), which would be more than enough.
I feel the same way about these KG comparisons as I did when people were throwing out “Duncanesque” adjectives about him. It’s no different from comparing Roy to MJ in my eyes.
by Royster on Sep 29, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think you may need to be prepared to adjust your thinking on LMA this season
I think your take on LMA were justifiable, if arguable, for the first third of last season. LMA was noticeably batter as the season progressed. I expect to see more improvement this year. I would encourage you to look at him with “fresh eyes.” It is easy to get locked into a position and not adjust it even when a player’s performance changes. You may prefer more traditional POWER forwards, but LMA has real skill on both ends of the floor.
I think I need to do the same with my take on Bayless. I tended to focus on the potential rather than the problems. Maybe he will figure out how to tap into that potential, maybe not.
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think we need Greg to be a Hall of Fame center
I do think we need him to be better than last year. If he’s playing at a 14/10/2 level, that’s enough to put us in the mix. If he starts putting up 18/12/3, look out.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Honestly, I'm not worried about him playing better. He was a rookie, and was VERY productive with his minutes. He will only get better.
I think we only need him to stay healthy and out of foul trouble….and for Nate to let him foul out occasionally. Seriously, how is he going to learn how to play in foul trouble if he doesn’t get the chance? Bigs playing with foul trouble is a certainty in the playoffs, and he needs to learn how to do it now.
by dario argento on Sep 28, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not either
I only say “if” about Greg getting better because of all the nervous nannies around here.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
What Dario said
Rec
Rooting for Greg Oden to Foul Out! FTW
I want to see that old face get mopey, then determined.
Not being a half-step slow from injury recover should help with his groping hands. They say he is coachable but even at the USA camp he was doing some stupid pushes. Typical rookie. Now its his growth year.
Greg Oden is the Blazersedge!
Everyone forgets that the Blazers' future was looking bright BEFORE "the Oden draft"
Yes, a dominant center helps one’s title prospects. But look how many NBA championships have been won WITHOUT that guy. Being too lazy to look it up, I’ll guestimate that, at least since the Bill Russell Celtics, a majority of NBA champs have lacked a great center (e.g., Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, & Hakeem).
If GO eventually lives up to the hype, that’s so much gravy. If he merely becomes very good—and he’s already well on his way to that at 21 years of age—the Blazers are still looking very strong going forward.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Better revise that guesstimate.
Wilt, Walton, Clifford Ray, Willis Reed, Kareem, Parish, etc.
by MiledAnimal on Sep 28, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait a minute!
I was a Bay Area resident and Warriors fan when Clifford Ray played. So I’m biased in his favor. But by no measure was Ray a “great” or “dominant” NBA center. He’d be the first to say it! In fact, Ray was one of the people I was thinking of when I made that statement. Clearly you either never saw Ray play, or time has dulled your memory. When the Warriors won it all, they’d just traded away a guy who WAS a great NBA center: Nate “The Great” Thurmond. In Nate’s absence, the Warriors used a “two-headed center” of Ray and George Johnson—another defensive specialist. Those two proved adequate in the pivot, while emerging young talent at the guard & small forward positions put the team over the top. Classic example of why great centers are NOT necessary to win championships.
BTW, you can’t make much of a case for Robert Parish having been great either. When he was a Warrior, they called traveling on him every time he touched the ball. The day he became a Celtic, that changed. Remarkable! The Chief was certainly good—better than Ray—but not great by any means. He won titles with the Celtics because they had Bird, Parish, McHale, Dennis Johnson, et al to complement him. The Chief a dominant center? Not even close.
Again, it’s just a guestimate. But my hunch is that if you go down the list of post-Bill Russell NBA championships, a slight majority have been won by teams lacking a dominant center. That doesn’t mean you wouldn’t love that guy on your team. Just that he’s not necessary for your team to win it all.
As for Wilt, even he makes my case for me. Of course he was great. In fact, he was the most dominant center of all time. The guy could score 50 points and grab 20 rebounds in his sleep. In fact, he actually averaged 50 points in one season. Just try to wrap your head around that! So why didn’t his team win practically every season? It wasn’t that he didn’t have talent around him. Often he did. It’s just that basketball is a team game, and as useful a weapon as a dominant post player is, it’s far from a guarantee of success. Nor is it a prerequisite.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Er--I didn't mean to include "Parish" in the list of Celtics who complemented Robert Parish
Although a pair of Chiefs certainly WOULD have made for a dominant center.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
In defense of the Chief
Living in Beantown through the glory days of Bird and Co., I feel the need to defend the Chief. He was the Celtics enforcer. He was a rock in the middle on D, and was a monster on the D glass. He had a sweet, unblockable baseline turnaround J that seem to come at critical times, when we really needed a score.
I loved the Chief. In fact, I often think of the Chief when I think about what Oden should become… And I get really excited thinking that Greg could indeed surpass the Chief’s impact….
In a league full of guys like Bill Lame Beer, the Chief was absolutely that big body in the middle champions need. Dominant? Maybe not… But ‘not even close’?? Can’t agree with that…
Blazers: RUN away with the title!
KP: Please don't trade the next decade's Scottie Pippen (Batum), Spanish Larry Bird (Rudy), Bill Russell (GO) or Captain BRoy - at least until they 3-peat..
I'm with you
He had about 7-8 years where he was one of the top 3-4 centers in the league, at least. Year in, year out.
His first three years weren’t great, and his impact lessened as he got older. In that respect, he wasn’t dominant like Kareem, who had a huge impact until he retired. But you could have built a championship team around him even if you didn’t have a Larry Bird.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
The other great thing about the chief
He had the best scowl in the league.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 29, 2009 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
We're not really in disagreement here
GO was hyped as a “generational center.” I.e., a “great” or “dominant” one. That means a guy in the category of Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Thurmond (OK, maybe that’s the Bay Area homer in me), Kareem, Duncan, Moses Malone, Hakeem, and the healthy Walton. Clifford Ray? Come on. Robert Parish? Closer, but still no cigar.
By contrast, Parish is more the kind of guy who GO could develop into and help the Blazers win a championship or two WITHOUT being one of the great ones. If GO turns into a “generational center,” then you’re talking about a potential Blazer dynasty.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Ray was a terrific defender but you're right, not a dominant center.
I was actually thinking of Thurmond when I wrote Ray’s name.
by MiledAnimal on Sep 29, 2009 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Never won a championship
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
That he was, title or no
To this day, if you ask Kareem who was the best defender he ever faced, he’ll say Thurmond without hesitation. And Nate could score & rebound, too. The stats show that very clearly.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Nate Thurmond was badly inefficient, though, which was his downfall.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Not really
His greatest strength was defense and rebounding. His downfall was lack of team strength, so too often they had to rely on him for scoring, which just wasn’t where he was most effective.
Put him on Russell’s Celtic teams and they probably win just as many titles as they did with Russell.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
No, Nate Thurmond's downfall was truly offensive inefficiency.
This isn’t even a worthwhile debate, either, but I’ll waste my time with it nonetheless.
HALL-OF-FAME CENTER #1 (1963-1977)
16.5 PER (Regular Season Career)
42.1% FG% (Regular Season Career)
47.0% TS% (Regular Season Career)
15.2 PER (Playoff Career)
41,6% FG% (Playoff Career)
45.7% TS% (Playoff Career)
HALL-OF-FAME CENTER #2 (1961-1975)
19.8 PER (Regular Season Career)
51.6% FG% (Regular Season Career)
55.4% TS% (Regular Season Career)
16.8 PER (Playoff Career)
47,1% FG% (Playoff Career)
51.5% TS% (Playoff Career)
Who, during that era, would you rather have manning the pivot on your favorite team? Okay, I rest my case.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
I'd take either one, actually
Especially if you can surround him with those kinds of players.
You really think Boston wouldn’t have won those titles if they had Thurmond alongside White and Havlicek and the rest? In fact, if they had, Thurmond’s efficiency would have been higher.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Agreed
Although I suspect you are wrong about the champs. Kareem helped his team to a few.
OK, I’ll check, just because I’m curious, starting with 1970.
70 Willis Reed. I don’t know if you want to call him dominant or not, but he was MVP.
71 Kareem.
72 Chamberlain.
73 Reed. MVP again. I think he counts as dominant.
74 Cowens (not dominant)
75 Clifford Ray (not dominant)
76 Cowens (not dominant)
77 Walton.
78 Unseld. I’d call Wes dominant, he was Finals MVP.
79 player who shall not be named due to geographical proximity to Portland. Not a dominant center (though very good).
80 Kareem.
81 Parish. I’d call him dominant by this stage in his career (he was 19/9.5/2 that year).
82 Kareem.
83 Moses Malone.
84 Parish.
85 Kareem.
86 Parish.
87 Kareem.
88 Kareem.
89 Ugly flopper. Won’t even type his name. Not dominant.
90 ibid.
91 Cartwright. Not dominant.
92 ibid.
93 ibid.
94 Hakeem.
95 Hakeem.
96 Did they have a center? Longley? Not dominant.
97 ibid.
98 ibid.
99 Duncan.
00 Shaq.
01 Shaq.
02 Shaq.
03 Duncan.
04 Okur/Wallace/Campbell? Not dominant.
05 Duncan.
06 Shaq.
07 Duncan.
08 You could almost call it Garnett, even though technically he played forward.
09 Bynum. Not dominant.
I see a whole lot of Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem on that list, with Walton, Chamberlain, and Moses Malone in there as well. Just counting those, that’s 19 out of the last 40. If you include Reed (little doubt in my mind) and Parish (Hall of Famer), that’s five more, and Unseld makes 6. To me, that makes 25 championships out of 40. 26 if you count Garnett, who is a dominant big man, and 27 if you count Gasol/Bynum (I don’t, Gasol is a very good player, but not what you would call a dominant big man. Very skilled, though).
The majority of champions have had a center who was a multi-year all-star or who at least was having a dominant year. In fact, if you take out the Jordan teams and the Detroit teams who had Rodman on the boards, you don’t find many at all without a very, very good center.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 28, 2009 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice research. At least ONE of us isn't lazy!
But based on that list, I’d say I was correct—by an eyelash. I guessed that a narrow majority of post-Russell titles had been one without great or dominant centers, and by my definition, I’d say that 21 of the last 40 champs clearly fit that description. Unseld & Parish were merely good/ very good.
However, if you categorize Willis Reed as great, then the numbers are flip-flopped: 21 of the last 40 champs featured a great center. No doubt one could make a good case for Willis Reed having been a great center. He was no Wilt or Russell, but he could really compete with those guys. I’d argue that playing in NY had something to do with the perception of Reed’s greatness.
But I might be wrong. It might be that the injuries Reed played with late in his career color my recollection of his abilities. For the sake of our little discussion, what matters is how good the center was at the time his team won a title.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Hmm
Unseld had a career average of 14 rpg. Career. 13 years. But he wasn’t really a scorer or shot-blocker so I’ll give you that one. An amazing rebounder, though, one of the best ever.
Parish in the years his team won:
81 19/9.5/2 only 31.7 mpg. Per 36, that’s pretty impressive.
84 19.0/10.7/1.4 35.8 mpg.
86 16.1/9.5/1.4 again only 31.7 mpg.
Parish is a Hall of Famer. If you don’t want to consider him a great center, that’s fine. If Greg ends up only being “good” on that level, we ought to win more than one championship. Parish’s per 36 numbers match up pretty well with Duncan’s in most of Duncan’s championship seasons. You could say that Parish only got championships because of the players around him, but you could say the same about Duncan. I’d take Duncan in his prime over Parish in his prime, but these are two great players.
Reed
70 21.7/13.9 (they didn’t track blocks back then.
73 11.0/8.6 (only 27.2 mpg).
I would call Reed a dominant center in 70, but not 73.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
LMA is nowhere near on par with Garnett '07-'08, even statistically
Garnett: 25.3 PER; .588 TS%;16.8 rebound%; 12.6 win shares
LMA: 19.1 PER; .529 TS%; 12.5 rebound%; 8.9 win shares
A 5.8 point gap in PER is massive— that’s roughly the gap between an average player and a solid all star (but non-MVP candidate)… and remember that some advanced statisticians think PER overrates LMA because it doesn’t penalize him enough for his low TS%.
LMA was 23 when last season started
Comparing him to Garnett at his peak doesn’t make much sense to me.
The comparison is only in terms of physical tools and the possibility that LMA may develop into a Garnett level All-NBA player.
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions
of course that's not fair.
quoting Dario Angeto, though:
and LMA is already on par with the stats of 07-08 Garnett
That’s what I was responding to. Of course, I could also point out that age 23 KG already had a PER of 23.6 and even age 21 KG had a better PER than last year’s LMA…
He doesn't need to match Garnett
The main point I had is he will improve . The best thing for LMA is he gets to do something KG never got to do. Play next to a dominant big man.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 29, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough
Dario made the comparison you were right to question it.
I doubt LMA ever gets to that level, but I do think he has substantial room for improvement. I will note that KG came to the NBA at 18 so he was in his third season by age 21. KG’s stats also likely benefited from being the primary focal point of Minnesota’s offense and from the fact that he was not rebounding next to Greg/zilla.
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope, LaMarcus Aldridge will never develop into a Kevin Garnett esque player. It's impossible.
Seriously, the possibility of that ever occurring — especially on defense and offensive efficiency — is nada. At best, Aldridge might catch up to Chris Bosh overall. That, however, is still unlikely as all hell.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Miller is a great hedge for an injury to Roy
They are both able to create for themselves and for their teammates. They’re not exactly interchangeable, because Roy’s game is more well-rounded, but Miller can facilitate the offense when Roy is on the bench or on the injured list.
And I hope this isn’t interpreted as a knock on Roy’s durability; as a LAL fan, I just have come to appreciate having a player(L.O.) that can do a superb job of filling in when injuries strike.
The only problem I have with a Miller/Roy pairing is this: while Roy complements Miller, Miller does not complement Roy. If Miller can’t be as productive as Blake playing off-the-ball, the Blazers’ margin for error decreases.
Best case scenario, Miller will bring something to the table to offset his disadvantageous perimeter shooting. Worst case, the Blazers will have to ride Roy hard again and hope others can step up in timely fashion.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
Fair comment
but I’ll answer that our worst case scenario is this:
Miller can’t complement Roy well, so Blake continues to start, and Miller makes our bench much more productive, by facilitating for Rudy, Outlaw, and whichever center and SF loses the battle for the starting spot.
But you are right that there is no guarantee that the Miller/Roy combo will be great. I think it will work effectively, but we’ll have to wait and see.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
something else to monitor
I took a look at Miller’s Usage Rate and PER. Generally, when his USG% is high, so is his PER; conversely, his PER drops when his USG% is low.
I presume Miller’s USG% is going to decline a bit, due to pace and due to Roy’s status as primary facilitator. So, it will be interesting to see if Miller can do more with less, or if he requires a lot of touches to be productive.
FYI: Miller’s USG% last season was 21.8%; Blake’s USG% was 16.9%; Roy’s USG% was 27.5%
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
The drop in pace won't lower Andre Miller's usage rate, but playing with Brandon Roy will do it.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
It really depends on how much he plays with Roy
I doubt his usage rate declines significantly when Roy isn’t on the court. It obviously will when he and Brandon play together.
I’m not a Blazer fan who expects Miller to play near All-Star status or anything. I think because his fit isn’t perfect with Roy that he’s going to only be a marginal upgrade over Blake, for any minutes he takes from Blake. But when you look at what we got from backup PG last year, over 48 minutes we are going to be much, much better at the point. The real upgrade is in our backup PG contribution. And the net result is that PG for 48 minutes was a weakness for us last year, and this year it is going to be a strength.
If Bayless somehow makes the leap and pushes his way into the rotation, it will be even more of a strength, because the only way that happens is if he becomes good enough to actually take minutes away from two good players.
But then, PG is just one of the reasons we have to be optimistic.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
Question: How do you think the fit between Miller/Roy compares to Miller/Iguodala
Iggy is a Roy-esque type guy who scores off the dribble and produces pretty high assist numbers. I am not aware that they had a lot of problems co-existing. It makes me wonder if some of the concern over fit may be overstated.
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Between Iggy and sweet Lou, the Sixers were filled with ball handlers and not guys who were “catch and shoot” along the lines of Blake. Admittedly, the Sixers offense was considerably less efficient than ours but the idea that Andre can only play surrounded by guys who don’t need the ball is a fallacy.
What I keep coming back to are the past experiences of every Olympic player who would come back after playing with Kidd on the national team and then talk about how they want their GMs to trade for him. All of these (Kobe, Duncan, LeBron) were guys who are seen to dominate the ball or who “need” the ball in their hands, but after actually playing with him and seeing how much easier he made their lives, none of that mattered.
I think Roy’s a little apprehensive given that he’s never really played with a guy like that (which Andre Miller is, to a lesser extent), so he’s going through the process of adapting to that change. Hopefully once they get on a real NBA court and Miller can make his life easier his concerns about their fit together will disappear.
I haven't watched a lot of Miller/Iggy games
I can’t really comment too much on that.
But I know what the 3 point threat from Blake adds to Brandon’s game, and I know the impact of guys playing together for a few years — synergies develop.
Miller has neither of those.
I expect Miller and Roy to learn to play together effectively. I think it will take time, but it will happen. They both know the game.
I think Miller will lose a little of his effectiveness with Brandon, whereas Steve gains effectiveness next to Brandon. Miller’s usage rate will drop. I expect the Miller/Roy combo to be overall better than the Blake/Roy combo. But I expect the highest 48 minute efficiency will be to ensure that all of Blake’s minutes come with Brandon. Or if you prefer to state it this way, the most effective rotation will be to ensure that either Andre or Brandon is on court for all 48 minutes.
Well, scratch that. The most efficient rotation is for either Andre or Brandon to be on court for 36 minutes, we blow everyone out, and they put up their feet and let Jerryd play the fourth quarter.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Sounds about right to me.
I suspect that this will be Nate’s approach initially. I expect something like Blake 20 min —Miller 28 min, with Blake on the floor with Roy at the beginning of the season. If Miller/Roy proves effective, Nate may change it up some as the season progresses.
I particularly liked your part about the blow-outs and Bayless getting a few minutes!
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Matchups...
A couple of points to consider:
I agree that all of Blake’s minutes should come with BRoy on the court. But the reverse is not true, all of BRoy’s minutes should not come with Blake on the court – I expect Miller, even if he doesn’t start, to close out tight games.
I’m not sure that “Miller will lose a little of his effectiveness with Brandon” though. At least I hope not, at least not after a couple of months. I mean, Dre should clearly benefit from being able to pass the ball to a great shooter like BRoy, right?
Now, if you’re comparing how effective our four possible guard rotations are, and if you think that Miller/Rudy might be more effective than Miller/Roy (given Rudy’s better skills at moving without the ball), I could see that…
I don’t know what statistical measure = “effectiveness”, but I could see Dre/Rudy outproducing Blake/Roy in some measures.
This all comes down to matchups, to me, which is why I’m happy to see Blake starting with Roy. I think it’s pretty clear that Blake/Roy and Miller/Rudy are better pairings than Blake/Rudy and Miller/Roy…
Man, I wish we could watch the practices…
Blazers: RUN away with the title!
KP: Please don't trade the next decade's Scottie Pippen (Batum), Spanish Larry Bird (Rudy), Bill Russell (GO) or Captain BRoy - at least until they 3-peat..
I wish we could watch the preseason games.
Whats that about? I got to see summerleague games why not preseason. If anyone has a link to seeing them on the net. I would greatly apreciate it.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
I agree
I agree that all of Blake’s minutes should come with BRoy on the court. But the reverse is not true, all of BRoy’s minutes should not come with Blake on the court – I expect Miller, even if he doesn’t start, to close out tight games
Are we quoting each other? I think I’ve said the exact same thing about a zillion times on other threads.
I expect Andre to play more than Blake (assuming both are healthy). And I expect Andre to finish the games.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
At first gance
Replacing Rodriguez with Miller or Roy is a significant overall upgrade. Upon closer inspection, i’m not sure one can take it for granted.
I’m not sold on Blake playing the role of primary facilitator/backup pg. Playing with Miller or Roy ought to bring out the best in him, but a productive pairing with anyone other than those two is dubious. Looking at the Blazers’ top 20 5-man-units on 82games.com, Blake is paired with Roy in 18 of those units. In the 2 instances he was not, accounting for just 120 minutes total, production was negative.
While it seems simple enough to have Miller assume Rodriguez’s 15mpg backup pg duties, and chalk that up as a big bonus. However, consider the following statements:
a. We know for a fact the Blazers’ most productive 5-man-units always feature a combination of Roy and Blake/Fernandez. For the most part, these lineups depend on Roy to facilitate the offense.
Neither Blake nor Fernandez are adept at facilitating the offense.c. Defensively, Philadelphia, where Miller played 36mpg, did a relatively poor job of defending opposing PGs; while the much-maligned Blake did a relatively good job in Portland in the same category(see 82games.com, By Position).
d. On top of that, there’s an issue w/ Miller playing primary facilitator: Roy simply does it better. Will Miller be as effective as Blake or Fernandez alongside Roy?
Presuming Miller and Roy aren’t going to be as efficient or productive as proven combinations, the issue is whether the benefit of having Miller at the helm for those 15 backup minutes outweighs the cost of having him taking minutes away from both Blake and Fernandez.
Cordially yours,
The Devil’s Advocate!
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
The emphasis on "Neither Blake nor Fernandez..."
was an error. it should just be considered the 2nd point on that list of statements
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
We would expect an LA fan
to be the Devil’s Advocate. It’s really the same, isn’t it?
If Miller and Roy click better than Blake and Roy, it’s all good. If not, I see it this way.
20 mpg Blake/Roy in the backcourt, with some of those with Rudy playing the 3 on offense, and Roy playing the 3 on defense (or more likely playing a zone).
15 mpg Miller/Rudy in the backcourt.
13 mpg Roy in the backcourt with PG and SF to be determined, based on how well Miller plays with Roy. If the Miller/Roy combo works better than Blake/Roy, Miller gets those minutes, with Rudy perhaps picking up a few more at SF. If not, Blake gets those minutes, though Rudy might get some of the PG minutes as well.
At worst, we get 33 mpg of Blake-Roy and 15 mpg of Miller-Rudy, which is an upgrade over Sergio-Rudy. But I don’t believe that happens for a minute. I think Miller is going to fit well enough with Roy to get those extra 15 minutes, and we’ll have Miller get 28 minutes, Blake 20, and one of either Miller or Roy is on the court the entire game, with both of them on the court together for 12-15 mpg, including closing out the game.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
May I humbly suggest that you are way over-thinking this issue
Miller is much better than Blake. Miller is light years better than Sergio or a rookie year Bayless.
Miller is just below All-Star level in most metrics, and although his defence isn’t great at this point, he is probably better than Blake and certainly superior to Sergio.
It remains to be seen what combinations will prove most successful in terms of utilizing Miller and Blake. But all the hand wringing about Miller/Roy seems very overblown given how well Miller fit next to Iggy who is in many ways a poor man’s B Roy. Miller knows how to play. Roy is an extremely smart player. They will figure it out, and it will not take months and months for them to do so.
Even if there is some marginal reduction in Roy or Miller’s production, I would be willing to bet that it will be more than compensated for by increased production from our bigs and our perimeter shooters. I expect Miller to help Oden, LMA, Batum, Martell, and Rudy. Some will benefit from better entry passes, some from oop passes, some from getting out and running more, and some from teams collapsing to defend Miller on the drive or in post ups.
by upper left corner on Sep 30, 2009 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe Miller is the superior PG
What my argument boils down to is the idea that Miller isn’t a spot-up shooter. Blake and Fernandez are probably superior to Roy with regard to spot-up shooting. The idea that Miller(and even Roy) won’t be able to space the floor as well as those two will make things more difficult for everyone.
So, the idea that Miller will increase production of both bigs and perimeter players ought not be taken for granted. It cannot be doubted: Miller does not optimize spacing. So, to a certain degree, the Blazers big and small will have to deal with Miller’s defender pestering them as they drive to the cup, receive passes into the post, make a back-to-the-basket move, and rebound the ball.
To be fair, Miller’s postgame is probably superior to LaMarcus Aldridge’s(that’s a shame) and Greg Oden’s. And to be fair, Miller’s ability to jumpstart the fast break with his rebounding, make critical passes in transition, and finish on the break make has made him a highly effective player for a decade. But the Blazers have been reluctant to post up or fastbreak!
So, unless they change their style to suit Miller, his potential can’t be realized.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
I understand the argument and you did I nice job of laying it out
I think the fit between Miller and Roy is a legitimate concern my response was to say that I don’t think it is insurmountable. Here are a few thoughts:
1) Miller played well with Iggy whose game is pretty similar to Roy’s and I don’t think it caused too many problems to have too driving ball handlers on the floor at the same time;
2) I think Roy isn’t used to being a spot up shooter, but that doesn’t mean he can’t quickly become effective in that role. Roy has said he has been practicing catching and shooting this summer. Personally I think it would be good to seem him drive a bit less in order to reduce wear and tear and potential injuries.
3) You are right that Miller is not a spot up shooter, on the other hand he is a good scorer which will force his man to stay home on defense. If you leave Miller he will catch the ball start driving and either hit the pull up or dish to the open teammate. Miller may not extend the defense quite as far as Blake does, but overall he is enough of a threat to keep teams from just packing the middle.
4) I suspect that Martell may be a better pairing with Roy and Miller than Batum. Martell (or Rudy for that matter) would provide the same kind of 3pt threat that Steve does. Combining two creative ball-handlers with two excellent shooters in LMA and Martell should make for adequate spacing.
5) My point about Miller helping everybody besides Roy is valid when I look at the roster. He will be able to play pick and roll with the bigs, lob to the bigs and driving wings, he can hit the bigs or the open wing if opponents try to double him when he posts up his man. Making things easier for the rest of the team should compensate for whatever marginal loss of production he and Roy may experience because of the spacing issue.
If you disagree I would be happy to hear your response to these points.
by upper left corner on Sep 30, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
There's nothing really left to discuss.
we just have to suffer a little longer and wait for the season to start.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
I'll add one more point, though
Miller is an excellent shooter, just not from 3. As long as we have a 3 point threat at SF, I think it will be fine. And I do think we can find one or two players to throw on the court at SF who can make a 3.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
All of the Blazers PER should drop,
except Oden.
And they will win more games.
Deeper Bench = Lower Averages
Martell's might be higher
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
It better be!
Blazers: RUN away with the title!
KP: Please don't trade the next decade's Scottie Pippen (Batum), Spanish Larry Bird (Rudy), Bill Russell (GO) or Captain BRoy - at least until they 3-peat..
LOL
I expect Nic’s PER to go up, too. And I won’t be surprised if Rudy’s does.
And I won’t be surprised if we play at a higher pace quite often, which may mean LMA’s goes up.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
PER is time and pace adjusted.
"If the Lakers are Hollywood, then we are South Central." - Clipper fan.
by Cablinasian on Sep 30, 2009 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, I knew that
My brain was just temporarily spouting even more meaningless drivel than usual.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
You´re a pessimist who likes to look like an optimist.
Very Brittish IMO.
If the mountain come to you, run. It´s a landslide.
I think most British
are optimists who like to look like pessimists.
But the pessimists among us do like to look optimistic.
Rather hypocritical, I suppose.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Sigh
We’re part of the United Kingdom, part of Great Britain. The English are part of it as well, just a less important (in the things that really matter) and more annoying part.
Is it ok for an Oregonian to consider himself American but not Californian?
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
The majority of Americans
can’t tell you the difference between England, Great Britain and the UK.
But then a majority of Americans lack a basic knowledge of geography of their own part of the world, let alone that of the rest of the world or it’s history.
hakkaa päälle !
A couple of years ago
the BBC ran an article referring to Mexico as an American state.
Stupidity strikes sides of the Atlantic.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
My favorite was the University of Miami professor
who gave his class a geography test. I can’t remember all the details on what percentages copuldn’t identify some of the basic fetures, but the one I doubt I’ll ever forget is the 28% who couldn’t identify on the map the Atlantic Ocean, which was just outside their window.
hakkaa päälle !
Of course
So is France, Italy, Russia, California, and Lousiana.
Because of the strong federal links between your states, you’ve virtually forgotten over there what “United States” means, and “state” has come to mean “regional area with a distinct but subordinate government.” But that is only a narrow regional meaning which the rest of the world wouldn’t adopt.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Another believer
I already have money down as Blazers as NBA champs at 15-1. Pretty good deal, I say.
See, ULC? That's courage.
Well, it is if you put BIG money down.
by MiledAnimal on Sep 29, 2009 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I already said I was in for $100.
I am a real estate investor and a renovator of old houses. The past two years have been brutal (my net worth has been cut in half), $100 is all I can afford at this point.
Did I mention that I hate Bush and the bankers?
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I could go on and on about Alan Greenspan, derivitives, sub-prime lending
and how Phil Gramm managed to talk everyone into repealing Glass-Stiegelman. The bottom line on this crisis was unbridled greed, unrestrained by proper regulation and government oversight.
I have a minor in economics and spent fifteen years as a lobbyist working for various consumer interest groups in four different states. I would humbly submit that I know a heck of a lot more about politics and economics than I do about basketball.
by upper left corner on Sep 29, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Come on, ULC
we all know it was those darn poor people swindling the good honest mortgage brokers out of loans. Isn’t that common knowledge now?
lol
Yeah, watching the Fox News crowd try to blame it on liberals, Fannie Mae, and poor people would be pretty funny if it didn’t hurt so much.
by upper left corner on Sep 30, 2009 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Here's a take from economist Walter Williams:
Most of our country’s serious problems can be laid at the feet of Congress and the White House and not at capitalism. Take the financial crisis. One-third of the $15 trillion of mortgages in existence in 2008 are owned, or securitized by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Ginnie Mae, the Federal Housing and the Veterans Administration. Banks didn’t mind making risky loans and Wall Street buyers didn’t mind buying these repackaged loans because they assumed that they would be guaranteed by the federal government: read bailout by taxpayers. Under a capitalist system, financial institutions would not have been intimidated or encouraged into making risky loans and neither would they have been bailed out if they did so. Social Security, Medicare and its coverage of prescription drugs have an unfunded liability that exceeds $100 trillion. When those roosters come home to roost, they will make the financial meltdown we’ve been though look like child’s play. Not withstanding all of the demagoguery, it is capitalism not socialism that made us a great country and it’s socialism that will be our undoing.
That's one take
But, the general consensus is closer to what ULC stated. People were overextending their ability to take on debt, bankers were happy to make mortgage loans to less than qualified buyers, and investment banks were happy to repackage it as derivative investment vehicles such as STRIPS. All were motivated by greed, or technically speaking, did not correctly cost out the risk of a mortgage-based derivatives. Everyone thought mortgages were a safe investment since it is tied to a piece of real property….Oops, now we know better.
In regards to the taking more risks due to likely bailout argument, I find that a little thin considering no one really had a clue om regards to how big does a corporation has to be to be considered to big to fail. It sounds more like self-serving drivel since good # of Economists were arguing for no bailouts for any companies. I was finishing up my MBA at a top 50 school as this was happening, and it lead to some interesting perspectives, shall we say. (My background FYI: BA in Econ and Finance, MBA in FInance) I really have my doubts that your average CEO is smart (or crazy, or amoral) enough to drive up short term gains while practically killing off long term gains by relying on an uncertain bailout.
One last thing before finishing this up: Practically everyone in my class knew that the economy was going into the toilet a year before it hit rock bottom. Mind you, we were just bunch of first year MBAs with many of us having no background in Finance or Econ previous to that year. Yet, there was enough material out there for us to predict that the economy was going to go into a downward spiral, although the severity was surely a surprise. It’s interesting to hear that the CEOs of big investment banks didn’t see it coming when a bunch of snot-nosed kids in a classroom can figure out what’s going on. (at least to me) What worries me now is that the banks that have survived are buying up all the ones that ran into trouble. What this does is increase the unsystematic risk (the overall market risk, or the risk that cannot be negated by diversification) of the commodities market and therefore, bigger risk of a market failure. This is what the Economists and finance academics are most worried about currently since government hasn’t stepped in to put a stop to this thanks to lobbying by the big banks. Ugh…
My problem with the "general consensus" is this
People were overextending their ability to take on debt
Politicians and the media blame other politicians, bankers, investment banks, investors, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the Bank of England, Gordon Brown, George Bush, Congressional members of whichever party they want to blame, mortgage appraisers, etc, etc, etc.
The fact is, no one held a gun to the head of someone and forced them to overextend their ability to take on debt. But no one wants to come out and say that those who did that have a share of the blame, too. That’s not politically popular, because those people are hurting now, so you don’t kick someone when they are down.
But ultimately, they made their own decisions, right? Sure, some people are in trouble not because they overextended, but because things happened beyond their control. But that’s a minor part of the picture.
The whole West decided debt was a cool thing to do, because you can get what you want now even if you can’t afford it. A materialistic society went crazy, and the whole society is paying the price.
Politicians encouraged it because it helped people to feel good about how things were going, so they could stay in power. Banks encouraged it because they were making big profits. Investors encouraged it by purchasing mortgage-backed securities because they could get a nice return on their investment, and they didn’t stop to think about the risk. All those people encouraged it, and benefited from it wrongly, but ultimately, the people who actually made the decisions were those who overextended and spent money they didn’t have.
There is one other guilty party that no one wants to talk about, because it would be to admit that we took a defeat. Al Qaeda. They waged economic warfare on the West on 9/11. Those attacks were not primarily about killing people, but about attacking the US politically and the West economically.
The West delayed the impact by chopping interest rates to mitigage economic damage, but greedy people used low rates as an opportunity to overextend — and eventually, the house of cards collapsed (at least partly). You can trace at least part of the problem back to 9/11, and the historically low interest rates that followed.
Now, we’re trying to mitigate the damage with more low interest rates and insane government borrowing. The Piper is still going to be paid, though. Either we will inflate that debt away (most likely) or we will have austerity measures that will kill economic growth and prosperity for a generation (politically unpalateable, won’t happen).
I just resigned as future ruler of the world. Who wants this mess?
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
by jscot on Sep 30, 2009 3:32 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was wondering when you were going to finally realize ...
… that being ruler of the world was not what it is cracked up to be.
Growing up in DC helped develop an interest in politics and government at an early age. As a bonus, I was selected to participate in Boys State for the District (still don’t know how that happened). Little things like voting always meant a lot to me (one reason I hate vote by mail) and the only time I failed to vote was in 1976, when I was deployed to the Med. Figured it was too much trouble to try go through the absentee ballot process and besides, what chance did some peanut framer from Georgia that no one had heard of have of winning. (I still hold myself personally responsible for Carter getting elected.)
I’ve come to the conclusion that a large number of politicians deserve to be beaten and tarred, except for the fact that we as the voters are really the ones responsible, just as you point out that we are ultimately responsible for the economic down turn. But as you also point out, personal responsibility is something more and more folks are finding it easier to disavow. Me, I can’t shake the upbringing my parents, a Catholic HS education and military service laid on me. So I’ll still work and invest money, rather than spend every dime I earn plus several more that belong to other people, volunteer my time working with students, getting them interested in science or programs like Junior Achievement and keeping an eye out to ensure that the one thing government won’t grab is my right to be armed.
hakkaa päälle !
It was fairly well known that banks had no reserves for a bad economy. Heck, I put it on applications a year before it happened and until then I had no background in finance. And British comedians knew it was coming in early 2008 or even before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzJmTCYmo9g
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
This is utter BS
Frannie and Freddie did not get into the sub-prime business until very late in the game. The private sector was responsible for the explosion of sub-prime lending and the explosion of mortgage backed derivatives that decoupled risk from the loan originators. All of this was made possible by Phil Gramm, the ultimate Republican free market guy, sneaking through repeal of Glass-Steigelman during a lame duck session of Congress after Bush was given the Presidency by the Supreme Court in December of 2000.
Conservatives and free-market advocates have done a lot of fancy footwork to try to shift the blame onto Barney Frank and Frannie and Freddie. You can believe their shtick if you find it ideologically convenient, but the overwhelming evidence and the judgement of history will be the same for this crises as it was for the Great Depression. Lack of appropriate government regulation allowed Wall Street and the banks to take excessive risks. They lost and we are paying.
In my case, I have lost half my net worth in the past two years in spite of the fact that I had taken great pains to reduce my risk by having a 40% equity position in my little real estate portfolio of five high end houses. My business model was based on being able to borrow against that equity to meet the cash needs of my business. In spite of perfect credit, I found myself cut-off overnight. The banks went from being too generous and handing out money to anyone with a pulse, to not lending to any small business. I managed to keep things going for a while by selling a couple of properties at significant discounts. Eventually, I had to lay-off all five of my employees. I had one living in a Motor Home in my driveway and another living with his wife in my basement. Essentially we all had our lives blown up by the greed of the bankers and the ideological rigidity of conservatives who think all regulation is bad regulation.
Now, for the rest of my life and my children’s lives, we will get to pay taxes to pay the interest on the money the government had to borrow to bail out the very people who caused the crisis in the first place. I know it had to be done or we would have faced an even larger economic calamity. But don’t expect me to like it, and don’t expect me to buy the razzle-dazzle BS of the people who caused the problem.
by upper left corner on Sep 30, 2009 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions
To be fair
Bill Clinton signed the repeal of Glass-Steagall in 1999, not George Bush. As bad as it may be to see people try and thrust the entire blame on the Democrats for happening to control congress for the past two years, that doesn’t mean it was entirely the GOP’s doing.
It’s more a sign of the complete failing of our bought and paid for political system. Still, that’s terrible to hear about your business. Hope you can turn things around.
I've never understood
why the Democrats were willing to cover for Clinton. If they’d had any sense, they would have helped throw him out and put Gore in the White House. At least, that was my perspective.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Throw him out?
I hope you don’t mean that they should have impeached him in what was the biggest political farce in the last century. The problem with that is that Clinton was, and still is, wildly popular with Democrats. His presidency oversaw one of the biggest peacetime economic expansions in our history while at the same time balancing the budget. Regardless of what people thought of repealing Glass-Steagall and cheating on their wives, it’s tough to argue that Clinton wasn’t a very effective and successful POTUS. Throwing him out of office for lying about cheating on his wife would have set an absolutely awful precedent.
You wouldn't say that
if Lewinski had been a foreign agent and blackmailed him.
Sheer recklessness.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
What?
If I was a high-ranking politician and some slut of an intern sucked me off, took my load on her outfit, and tried to blackmail me for it, I’d say go ahead and tell your story to the press if that’s your goal.
Of course, I’m not some repressed sexual prude like several uptight, intransigent reactionaries who hold back the cultural progression of American society.
Why, by the way, are we all having this flat-out ludicrous discussion?
As a fiscal conservative, civil libertarian, and cultural liberal, I really find myself wanting to argue with “upper left corner” over economics — as he seems like someone who doesn’t want to accept personal responsibility over his own financial difficulties — and with you over the indubitable importance of social liberties.
It’d waste my time to get too involved in such contentious, hot-button issues. I, therefore, will focus my attention back on the one thing that brings us to Blazersedge, with that being basketball. Besides, we’ve already got a plethora of things to argue about regarding the topic at hand.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Since Clinton lied to cover it up
he seemed to view it differently than you.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
AK does irritate, but there is a chance that
time will take care of that.
And I do understand getting a bit hacked off at his comments when you’ve worked hard all your life and he’s not even working at all right now.
hakkaa päälle !
AK, grow up.
As a fiscal conservative, civil libertarian, and cultural liberal, I really find myself wanting to argue with "upper left corner" over economics — as he seems like someone who doesn’t want to accept personal responsibility over his own financial difficulties — and with you over the indubitable importance of social liberties.
Well aren’t you an obnoxious little jerk? I worked 60 hour weeks for the past two decades building up a million dollar net worth, starting from $60,000 in college debts. Along comes a once in 80 year economic crisis that completely changed the behavior of the market and the banks and undermined the business model my company was built on. If it was so easy to see this all coming, genius, how come several of the largest investment banks in the country didn’t see this coming? I was prepared for a recession. I was prepared for a modest decline in property values. No, I did not see near collapse of the credit markets nor a 25% reduction in property values. Did you?
Talking about “taking personal responsibility” for my actions when you have built a similar business and then seen it washed away by forces completely beyond your control. Arrogant, ignorant, and completely lacking in compassion seems to be the order of the day. You are welcome to apologize any time you want. If you don’t, it says a lot more about you, than about me, or about the economic situation.
by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry I got the blockquotes screwed up.....
First paragraph is quoting AK. Lower box is my response.
by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2009 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, and I was under the impression
that Clinton was more Republican than a lot of Republicans on everything except social issues. But I may have that one wrong.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
His actions weren't especially liberal after the Republican takeover in 1994
but you’d struggle to find a Republican more “liberal” than him these days given how polarized it’s all become. He was a centrist and a pragmatist, which made him appeal to a wide range of people, even if it led the most liberal democrats to hate him for not pushing harder on health care, though it would have been mostly spitting into the wind against the GOP majority. He actually cared about running a functional government, which is more than you can say about most politicians these days who are more concerned with winning seats or gathering money for their next election campaign.
And please, please tell me you’re being sarcastic about “if Lewinsky had been a foreign agent”. We’re talking white house interns here. It’s not like they just hand out those jobs to anyone off the street. There are serious background checks involved. And regardless, the fact is, she wasn’t and it’s a huge leap from lying to a grand jury about cheating on your wife to handing out state secrets.
If we’re dealing in hypotheticals we might as well talk about “what if Barack Obama really WAS born in Kenya?” Or “What if George Bush really DID allow 9/11 to happen?” We can only go based on what happened. Bill Clinton cheated on his wife with an American citizen, which isn’t illegal. In an effort to embarrass him, Starr dragged him in front of a grand jury to make him admit to it, and he lied. Maybe if the “I don’t remember” grand jury defense of Rove and Gonzales had been perfected by then he could have just used that and we wouldn’t have had to go through that joke of a “trial”.
I don't think a British PM would have survived
At least not back then.
Lying to Parliament, where it can be proven, and you’re done. Your own party throws you out. Lying under oath would do it for sure. No matter what the subject of the investigation. And if you support things that the other party pushes and most of your own party doesn’t like, they would jump at the chance to dump you.
As to the perjury, you’re supposed to uphold the law, so you can’t just break it, even if it is “just” about adultery. The message is that politicians are above the law, which isn’t a healthy one.
I wasn’t joking about Lewinsky, but I don’t really know that much about your security clearances, etc. It was still extremely foolish. The man was/is a brilliant politician, and trashed his own effectiveness. Too much of his effort had to go into survival, and instead of being able to help his successor get elected, he undoubtedly hurt Gore. It was a waste.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Ignoring all the gross ethical violations
of Starr in the prosecution, which may have been enough to get the case thrown out in a normal court, and not the politically charged Congress, it still wasn’t an open and shut case. If the president is going to be thrown out of office on charges that no prosecutor would pursue in a normal case (i.e. possibly lying in testimony about something immaterial to a dismissed civil suit), the case needs to be ironclad, which it wasn’t.
Not to mention that conviction of an impeachment is completely different from simple conviction of a criminal case. Defining Clinton’s conduct as “Treason or High Crimes and Misdemeanor” is a stretch at best. It’s debatable whether it would have been good for the long term health of the party, given that Clinton’s approval rating was over 70% at the time, but removing someone from office shouldn’t be a political concern, whether that person is Bill Clinton or George W. Bush.
You really think the Democratic Senators
made their decision on a legal basis rather than political considerations?
Possibly lying? You know, I read the Starr report. There was no “possibly” there. He cited witnesses and evidence, and none of that was disputed. Clinton did perjure himself under oath. He was disbarred for it.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
There's lying and there's perjury
Legally proving perjury in his case wasn’t open or shut given the legalese from the proceedings. Just like Albert Gonzales was undoubtedly when he said he couldn’t recall any meetings about political hirings or firings doesn’t mean he can automatically be perjured, neither does Clinton’s testimony, hence all the discussion about the meaning of “sexual relations” and “is”. It’s not illegal to be evasive hide behind narrow definitions. If there had been a competent prosecutor with these things they would have followed up and locked it down.
Again, if this were lying about a case of national security or criminal endeavours, I’d classify this evasiveness as ground for impeachment, but it was a grand jury called about a sexual harassment case. How many sexual harassment cases in the US warrant a grand jury investigation?
I don’t know how “politically charged” implies the democrats were righteous in their defense, but if this were being decided by a rational, non-partisan prosecutor (which it’s pretty clear Starr wasn’t) and he wasn’t the president, it’s pretty clear that charges wouldn’t have been brought in the first place, but because that decision was being made on the basis of political considerations rather than legal ones, they were anyways. Being held in contempt of civil court and being convicted of a criminal charge are two completely different beasts.
If he weren't the president
I doubt hiding behind definitions of “is” and “sexual relations” would help much in a court of law.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
All the rationalization in the world ...
… doesn’t change the fact that he perjured himself and was disbarred.
It all comes back to jscot’s point about personal responsibility. You want to blame Republicans for impeaching Clinton over his lying to coverup a sexual affair. Yet the bottom line will always remain that Bill Clinton was the person most responsible for what befell him. He was the individual who chose to allow a venal temptation over come good judgement (not to mention suppossedly scared vows to his wife).
hakkaa päälle !
I'm getting slack in checking my spelling.
Then against, getting married to Hillary probably did entail scared vows.
I know it would for me.
hakkaa päälle !
I've always said that Clinton was ...
… one of the most successful moderate Republican presidents ever. At least from the prospective of domestic issues.
I think he sucked at handling foreign affairs.
hakkaa päälle !
Yes, Clinton signed it in December 2000, at the behest of Robert Rubin.
You are absolutely correct that there are plenty of corporatist Democrats who aren’t much different than the Republicans. See the current crowd kissing the behind of the health insurance industry by caving on “public option.” Public option is a particularly funny example of Republican thinking; the very folks who say they believe in competition and think private companies are inherently more efficient are scared to death about allowing the government to compete with those same private companies.
Let’s face it, Adam Smith and free market theory is based on a number of assumptions. Free markets work well when all those conditions exist. However, there are many sectors where “free-markets” aren’t really free. As anyone who has studied economic history knows, the best way to get rich is to corner a market (Rockefeller, Carnegie, and now, Gates and our own Allen) and then defend your monopoly or your oligopoly profits.
by upper left corner on Sep 30, 2009 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
As tough as it might seem to you ...
… try talking to someone who lived through the real Depression.
This is a walk in the park.
hakkaa päälle !
My grandparents where middle aged when the depression started and my parents were small children
I have heard a lot of stories. Have you read Studs Terkel excellent oral histories of the depression.
Regarding my business, I planned for the worst economic times I had seen in my lifetime, but I had never seen this. I do find it pretty galling to hear conservatives who have never had the courage to actually build a company lecture me about “personal responsibility.”
by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
AK is the one who said it, and I did direct my ire at him
I do think there is a long tradition of conservatives talking about personal responsibility, and it is an area that I think has a lot of merit. I have been glad to see Obama talk about this issue repeatedly. Certainly we are each responsible for how we react to adversity, but we may not be responsible for the situation that caused the adversity.
However, personal responsibility can pretty easily turn into “blaming the victim.” In the current crisis ten of millions have seen their economic situation dramatically worsen through no fault of their own. Millions have been laid off, tens of millions have seen their home go from being their nest egg to being their albatross. According to the latest figures 30% are upside down in their homes. I am “fortunate” that I still have considerable equity in my three remaining properties. I know many small real estate investors who have gone under completely. If I can manage to keep all the mortgages paid I should be able to survive. Talking about personal responsibility in this context doesn’t make much sense to me. In my experience conservatives tend to take a sink or swim approach and don’t tend to have a lot of empathy for the pain that “free markets” often cause.
by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
The only point here I'd take exception to is your labelling.
You keep referring to conservatives. I probably consider my self to be conservative. And I believe strongly in personal responsibility. I’ve also seen a 40% reduction in my investment savings and starting in 1993 have experienced losing a job 4 times. And let’s not mention watching my 401k from when I worked for PGE disappear thanks to Enron.
I also realize that one deals with it and that whatever I’ve experienced pales to insignificance when compared to the real Depression.
I’d also be curious how many of those folks who are “upside down” on their mortgages bought homes beyond what they could reasonably afford or who took out financing on their homes to spend on whatever purposes. My wife and I bought our town home up here 2 & 1/2 years ago and made sure that stayed with a price range we could afford. We didn’t get the place my wife really wanted, but that’s life.
hakkaa päälle !
I did not mean to use "conservative" as a pejorative
I have many conservative friends and have many thoughtful conversations with them. I was trying to use the term to describe a certain political point of view. In fact, in my legislative career, I was even a Legislative Aide to a Republican who was one of the last of Oregon’s Tom McCall Republicans.
No doubt, some individuals acted irresponsibly and bought more house than they could afford or managed their funds poorly and used their homes as ATMs to cover their shortfall. However, I think the larger picture is that real wages have been stagnant for the middle and working classes for most of the past 30 years. It is only by having women enter the work force that folks have been able to sustain their standard of living.
There have been numerous stories about Countrywide and other lenders targeting low-income, minority communities and other consumers who were likely to be less experienced and sophisticated to sell their sub-prime loans.
I had personal experience with being asked to advise some blue collar guys who were buying houses and who were being set-up by unscrupulous mortgage brokers. I managed to steer them them away from some bad loans, but the point is that a lot of folks do not have the knowledge or skill to know when they are being taken advantage of. These are not stupid guys, just guys who were unfamiliar with the industry and unsure how to read very complicated contracts. We need regulation and consumer protection standards that help protect people.
Every one’s situation and story is different, but I think the take away lesson from this experience is that it is very dangerous to allow the financial sector to operate without appropriate regulation. Particularly when the financial sector is dominated by just a handful of enormous banks who are “too big to fail.”
by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
The mantra that conservatives don't care about others
is a smear that one hears frequently, like Grayson’s comment that Republicans want sick Americans to ‘die quickly.’ No doubt that truly heartless people exist on all sides of the political spectrum, but such folks are relatively few in number and any thinking person would have to doubt that conservatives have a monopoly on them.
Conservatives do feel that the liberal approach to solving social ills often is counterproductive. For example, governement assistance may help an unwed mother buy groceries, but it also lessens her incentive to avoid risky sexual behavior. When the government dollars rise with each kid she delivers, the government is encouraging the rise of single-parent families, which has destructive results on individuals and societies.
Rather than engage in an honest discussion of the effects of government handouts, advocates resort to smearing those who oppose them with labels like “heartless,” “mean-spirited,” “taking food out of the mouths of children,” and so on. I hope those who do that will someday consider whether those on the right who disagree with their opinions may actually not be knuckle-dragging troglodytes but fellow citizens who deserve a modicum of respect.
You may be right about motives, but the effect of conservative policy is to leave people to their own devises.
Liberals attempt to actualize empathy with policy. Most conservatives that I know suspend their empathy because they believe that in the long run social services are “bad” for people just as you intimated in your post. Actually, given welfare reform there are now lifetime caps on support.
Obviously you take offense to what Grayson said, but how would you argue with the underlying truth of his statement? What plan have Republicans put forward in the current debate? What universal health care initiative have they put forward in the past sixty years?
In the 1980s, I was the Executive Director of the Oregon Health Action Campaign a citizen’s group working for health care reform and universal access. I have followed these police debates for nearly three decades. The Republican Party has opposed every effort at substantive reform. The effect of that opposition is a total lack of help for the 44,000 people who die every year as a result of not having health insurance. Talk about “personal responsibility,” I think we each need to take responsibility for the outcome of the ideology we espouse and the votes we make every two years.
by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
This is from Tom Curry, Nat'l affairs writer for msnbc.com:
Claim: Congressional Republicans have offered no proposals for overhaul of health insurance.
Fact or fiction?
Fiction. There are at least two major Republican proposals not yet endorsed by GOP leadership. With Democrats controlling the House and Senate, those proposals won’t be enacted any time soon. Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., Sen. Richard Burr, R-N.C., and Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wisc., have introduced a bill that would subsidize low-income people to buy coverage, create high-risk pools for people deemed uninsurable, and expand use of tax-sheltered Health Savings Accounts. Rep. Tom Price, R-Ga., has introduced a bill that would give a tax deduction for insurance costs for people who purchase coverage in the individual market and give low-income people subsidies to buy coverage. Also, Republicans such as Sen. Charles Grassley, R- Iowa, have successfully offered amendments to the Senate Finance Committee bill, so that legislation will have some Republican content.
As I mentioned in my post quite a ways up this thread....
…..I have worked as a lobbyist and staffer in four different states. There is a difference between window dressing and a substantive policy initiative supported by party leadership.
During the twelve years that Reagan and Bush I were in the White House, they never put health care reform (other than tort reform which was favored by the insurance industry) on the national agenda. During the six years that Bush II was in the White House and the Repubs had control of both Houses of Congress, no significant health care reform legislation was ever advanced. The two bills you referenced are nothing more than window dressing.
As hard as Obama and Baucus have tried to generate some kind of bi-partisan dialogue, they have found only one Republican, Olympia Snow, who is even willing to seriously consider supporting a bill. Republicans have become the party of “no” on health care; the party of “no” on climate change; the party of “no” on re-regulating Wall Street and the banks; the party of “no,” period. Rather than trying to solve the many serious issues facing our country and our planet, they have become the party of obstruction, throwing sand in the machinery of state and hoping that Obama will fail.
This problem will not be addressed until conservatives with a conscious encourage their party to stop playing politics and start trying to solve our countries problems. I urge you and my other conservative friends with good minds and good intentions to take that step. We may not agree on the best approach to many public policy problems, but we should be able to agree that we need to work together to solve those problems. Fifty million Americans without health insurance is unacceptable. Forty-four thousand dying each year is a public and private tragedy. I know, my father was one of them.
by upper left corner on Oct 1, 2009 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm sorry about your father,
and everyone else who cannot afford the things in life that rich folks can afford, but you cannot impoverish the nation by buying everyone everything they want or need. “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” doesn’t mean the government is supposed to provide those things. It does anyway, when it comes to health care, since no one who goes to a hospital is turned away.
You’ve condensed three decades of American political history into your version of what happened. I could assemble a counter-argument to every point you’ve raised, which would take way too much time and would accomplish nothing. So let’s keep it simple:
- The federal government’s job is to uphold the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, defend the borders, keep civil order, and ensure a level playing field for citizens and businesses. The federal government in 2009 is a gigantic, all-powerful black hole that regularly violates the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in a wealth redistribution ponzi scheme that would be unrecognizable to those who fought and died to establish America.
- Government is always the most-expensive and least-efficient way of accomplishing almost any task outside of its Constitutional mandates.
- The larger, richer, and more powerful government becomes, the smaller, poorer, and weaker the nation’s citizens become.
I hope that Republicans or someone will continue to shoot-down the endless stream of bad ideas that Democrats and liberals are always proposing in their haste to spend the nation into oblivion and ensure the statist future they have so gleefully set-out for us.
I appreciate your kind words
Regarding your three bullet points
The governments job is to follow the will of the people in so far as it does not conflict with the general parameters of the Constitution. The Supreme Court is the arbiter of the Constitution, and seven of the current nine Justices were appointed by Republican Presidents, According to these folks the government is not violating the Constitution. Government spending as a percentage of GNP has been gradually going up but remains relatively low compared to most other industrialized nations. Wealth distribution in the US has tilted increasingly towards the rich. In fact, the top 5% now controls more of the nations wealth than at any time since the depression. I am less concerned about the wealthy than about the middle class which has been increasingly squeezed over the past three decades.
If you are correct that government is inherently less efficient, then why does the United States spend more of its GDP on health care than any other country? Why are conservatives so afraid that private insurance companies will be unable to compete wit a government sponsored health insurance plan? Medicare spends 3% on administrative expenses, the average private insurance company spends 27% on administrative expenses and profits.
Your third point is just demonstrably false. The US no longer has the highest GDP per capita in the world. Nearly all of the countries that have passed us are European countries that have a larger public sector.
I have appreciated the conversation, and hope that we may some day take up timg56’s suggestion and continue our exchange over drinks. At least we can agree on one thing, go Blazers!
by upper left corner on Oct 2, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Given the immense debt crisis
which governments around the world are piling up, the fact that millions of people are out of work, and the current Iranian crisis is getting ready to blow up, which is going to cost billions inevitably, I think some “no” is in order.
There is a time to spend money on what is already the best health care system in the world (by far), but it isn’t when you are building up debts that are going to blow the economy to shreds.
The time to drastically increase regulation which will put people out of work, and put more banks under, is not now. You get back on a firm footing and look at it calmly when the crisis is past, and then make changes.
Nor is this the time to put the economy further in the tank with further environmental regulations.
The mark to market regulation contributed greatly to the severity of this crisis. It didn’t cause it, but it sure made it worse. Please let’s not rush into more regulations without careful analysis of possible unintended consequences. In the middle of a crisis is not the time to rush regulations. Instead of fighting the last economic war, let’s try to consider what the next war will be like.
The Maginot Line was great for the previous war, but reliance on it meant France was totally unprepared for Hitler’s form of attack.
Obama and friends need to sit down and say, “What is the imminent danger, and what can wait?” More regulation is not the urgent need of the hour. Better regulation needs to be in place, but that can be done next year or the year after. Making the banks spend more money making sure they are in compliance, when they are desperately trying to regain their strength, just doesn’t help anything.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
Yeah, basketball blog isn't really the place
You’re saying ULC, MA, you, and me?
You don’t want to invite AK? He’s old enough to drink now, I think. :)
(duck for cover, explosion coming?)
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
I look forward to meeting AK.
I eat arrogant young men for breakfast, and use their bones to make soup.
by upper left corner on Oct 2, 2009 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Count me in!
I hope I haven’t been too belligerent. Given my history of working in politics, I do have very strong opinions. I enjoy exchanging thoughts with folks who don’t always agree. One of my biggest complaints about most political sites is that we tend to gather with those who share our opinions and never really challenge our preconceived notions.
We do need to learn how to engage in tough, civil discourse. Our political leaders need to learn how to do that too.
by upper left corner on Oct 2, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I consider discussing sex, religion and politics,
as the three topics that beat out sports.
Strong opinions are great. Particularly when they are accompanied by a willingness to listen to the other side, as you exhibit.
hakkaa päälle !
One final comment.
Calling the US system “the best in the world” is a highly debatable statement. It is certainly the most expensive at 16% of GDP, but our health outcomes measured in many ways are far below those of most industrialized nations. Life expectancy, infant mortality, and many more indices indicate that we are far from the best in the world.
Most of our problems revolve around lack of preventative and primary care because so many are uninsured and receive health care only in emergency situations in the most expensive care settings.
The point that Obama has been trying to make to anyone who will listen is that health care reform is absolutely critical to the countries fiscal and economic health. Medicare and Medicaid are spiraling out of control. Health care costs for business have become so high that they are becoming a huge competitive disadvantage for American businesses. Any prudent long range economic policy must include health care reform, and any health care reform must include universal coverage and cost controls. Republican efforts to strip the public option are a giant sop to the for-profit insurance industry and will severely undercut efforts to control costs.
If you want to understand the politics of health reform, follow the money. Conservative Dems have been sucking up enormous campaign contributions from the insurance and pharmaceutical industry that is what is driving the debate.
Until the United States gets public financing of elections, we will never have a government that is truly responsive to the public good.
by upper left corner on Oct 2, 2009 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
It's hard to convince someone
who has been on a waiting list for several months (that’s where I am right now) that your system isn’t far better.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
I am not an advocate of a NHS like you have in GB
I would prefer to see a single payer/private system like they have in Canada. Doctors control their own practice; patients have choice among docs; government negotiates the reimbursement rates with the provincial Medical Associations.
I realize that the NHS has its problems, but your outcomes are still better than ours. You ration care with wait lists, we ration care based on ability to pay. Your system seems far more rational, equitable and efficient. You guys are paying 9% of GDP to achieve universal coverage, we are paying 16-17% of GDP and have 20% of adults under 65 uninsured.
I hope your personal situation has a happy ending. I am sure that it must be difficult. My wife and I have recently joined the ranks of the uninsured, as we had to drop our insurance in order to try to free up money to pay our multiple mortgages. It is scary being uninsured at age 51 and working in the construction industry. Essentially, we are one health problem or accident away from bankruptcy. Medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US. IMHO, our system can only be characterized as barbaric.
by upper left corner on Oct 3, 2009 6:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Better outcomes
are measured by government-supplied statistics, and our government (no matter who is in power) has incentive to play games with statistics, and has a track record of doing so.
In short, I don’t buy it. You always get better outcomes if you treat people more quickly, and it never happens here unless you have the money to go private. And only the top 5%, generally, have those funds.
I make a good income, but can only afford to go private in critical situations, which mine is not. So I put up with something that would have been dealt with in a couple of weeks, at the most, in the US. I won’t show up as a “bad outcome” statistic, unless loss of sleep and pain-induced blood pressure triggers a stroke, at some point.
That’s unlikely. So I’ll just have 4-6 months of unnecessary discomfort and stress. That’s life, I can deal with it. But it doesn’t make me enthusiastic about our system when I know what yours is like.
Equality of misery is not something towards which to strive.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.
And how many of that 20% is due ...
… to their own choice? I was without health insurance for over 10 years. Mainly as a result of the layoffs. I could have obtained individual insurance, but I determined that the cost was more than I wanted to pay. From what I’ve read, a large portion of those under 65 without insurance fall into this category.
The next grouping I’d want to look at is the percentage of uninsured who are illegals. It may seem cold hearted, but frankly, I don’t believe you should count people here illegally.
hakkaa päälle !
You can sum the housing crisis up really easily
Dumb Americans
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Sep 30, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
No it's not
We have one proven player and several maybes. Once the maybes turn into yes’s then the window will be open. Right now there is little to no evidence that Oden, Batum, LMA, Outlaw, Bayless et al have made that leap yet.
Blazer Fan
Your position is like trying to predict the road ahead by looking in the rear view mirror
My whole point is that insisting on looking backwards in order to assess future play results in missing young, up and coming teams until after they arrive. Obviously there has to be a first year that a team breaks through and challenges.
I am not saying that it is absolutely certain that this will be the year. I am saying that there is a reasonable chance and that the Blazers should be discussed in the second tier of teams that are just below LA and Cleveland. Each of the other teams has a number of questions about the fit of incoming players, the health of aging stars, and the development of young stars. Any one of these teams will need several of these issues to break their way in order to beat the favorites, but each has a realistic path to the finals.
Andre Miller – averaged over 18 PER for the last six years, ranks fifth in two other metrics
LMA- PER of 20 + expected to continue to improve
Oden- Per of 18 + near historic levels in rebound percentage
Batum, Rudy, Trout, Martell all are still in development but all have proven they are strong complimentary players
by upper left corner on Sep 30, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry....
I don’t think a team that just re-entered the playoffs last season after a lengthy absence, and got tossed in the first round has the right to say “our championship window is now open”.
We are talented. Do we have enough talent to possibly achieve a finals run? Sure, why not? But if last season was a return to playoff level contention, I see this season as the season we establish upper echelon team status.
It’s not what fans really want to hear, but getting to that championship is going to happen in steps. I think we need a season for Oden, plus to sort out our SF situation. We are so talented that sure anything could happen, even as soon as this season, but while championship is the ultimate goal, I don’t see it as this years reality.
Are The Blazers and we as a fan base getting a little too cocky? What I’ve liked about this team is the mantra of staying hungry and humble.
Oddly, I’m hearing a lot of “We are great” talk entering this season. Well you’ve got to prove it on the floor and with wins. There is a lot of work to do this season before we hang banners of any kind. Lot’s of questions to be answered.
When the window is open, we all will know it. It won’t even be a question anyone has to ask.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
"getting to that championship is going to happen in steps"
That’s not written in stone. That’s usually the way it happens, but not always.
Nobody said in this thread it is going to happen. He said we’ve got a shot at it. We do. It probably won’t happen, but you don’t give up before the season starts. Not when you’ve got a young and improving team that tied for the second best record in the West last year.
As author of Da BOM (Blazer Optimist Manifesto), I hereby certify that we will win 62 games in the regular season. Disagree at your peril.

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