Blazer's Point Guard Beyond Andre Miller?
I believe the Blazers have solved their point guard problem for the upcoming season with the addition of Andre Miller. However, Mr. Miller is legitimately old by NBA standards, and the long term answer at point guard has yet to be found. I offer a suggestion for one possible solution that would best utilize the personnel we have now.
We have seen the facility with which BRoy is capable of running the offense in the half-court. But bringing the ball up the court can take its toll on Brandon's energy. Rudy Fernandez consistently demonstrates inspired court vision and passing, in the half court. But Rudy cannot bring the ball up the court, its just not one of his strengths. I don't believe Rudy can "learn" to effectively bring ball up the court. My conclusion is Rudy and Brandon can coexist very effectively as backcourt mates, in the half court. The problem with playing them together is you need to play a point guard with them to bring the ball up the court, which in turn forces one of them (Brandon, again the more versetile) to defend a small forward. Either way, Brandon get's too tired/beat up. The solution I suggest: A point forward.
Be it Nick Batum (in the event he shows his full court dribbling abilities can be relied upon), or bringing some other forward who has the skills to bring it up the court (a la Pippen, Odom, historically Diaw did it for a while, and even Garnett at times), the Blazers could very effectively field a team with Roy and Rudy in the back court, and Oden and LMA up front. (I don't think Webster has the handles at all, so that's a non-starter IMO). A starting lineup with Rudy, Roy Oden and LMA would be a deadly starting lineup, in my opinion.
Whether the Blazers field a conventional starting lineup with a true point guard, or do something less conventional as I am suggesting they could, they are going to be very good for years to come. I am looking forward to seeing how this and future seasons play out. Go Blazers!
1 recs |
130 comments
Comments
the blazers still have
Blake and Bayless after Miller gets to old.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 21, 2009 9:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a fair point
My response would be that a) Blake isn’t as good as Rudy, and having Rudy in the backcourt with a ball handlin, defense playin small forward would be better than starting Blakey and having Rudy off the bench. b) Re Bayless, I haven’t seen him play well enough to make me think he can be a good starting NBA point guard. It could be that he will do so this season. What I have seen of him so far is that he does not have a great feel for the game, handles or vision, but he is good scoring one on one. However, playing JB does not get Rudy in the starting lineup either, and Rudy is better than Bayless.
by goblazer1 on Sep 21, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
why do they need rudy in the startin lineup??
couldnt he be the blazers 6th man? Rudy should not be in the starting lineup, he is a shooting guard, and they got that position covered.. honestly, its not on the coaches shoulders to make Rudy fit somwhere else to get more playing time, it is Rudy that needs to either learn how to handle the ball, be able to guard point guards, or bulk up and guard some small forwards if we wants the playing time. I think Rudy is way to good to be on this team for to long. he could start on quite a few teams. I would love to see Rudy be able to pick up some skills at other positions so that he can get more playing time. He would make a great sixth man, almost like a jason terry.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 21, 2009 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just brainstorming ways to get the best players on the court together
Rudy is one of our best 5, in my opinion.
by goblazer1 on Sep 21, 2009 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah...
but I kind of like him coming off the bench.. But it would be useful to find a way to get him on the court for end of games.. its going to be even harder this season with andre miller.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 21, 2009 10:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
at the end of games though
it seems like there is no spot for Rudy… Miller, Roy, Batum (to shut down star player on opposing team) Aldridge and Oden/Pryzy… I think thats who i put in at the end of the game. Depending on how webster is doing, maybe sub Batum for Webster if offense is needed.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 21, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, my issue is I think Rudy is better than Miller or Batum for scoring in the half court in tight games, which is where I view the Blazers as lacking (see Houston series). If Rudy can play with Batum, ideal because you get both defense and offense. I guess what I’m saying is there should be a spot for Rudy when the game is on the line.
by goblazer1 on Sep 21, 2009 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont know..
miller’s experience at the end of close games is a good thing i think… plus, as posted elsewhere (i think in the roy is selfish post) teams can predict what is going to happen.. Roy in the iso, but with miller on the floor, it adds options.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 21, 2009 10:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who do you think will have the ball in their hands at the end of close games?
Nate has always been crystal clear about that. His best player. Brandon is the PG in the last 4-5 minutes of close games. Don’t expect Brandon to be running around without the ball trying to get open shots behind screens late in the game. The first option will still be Roy taking the ball to hoop if the lane opens up (which means spreading the floor for him) and if not, Roy finding an open man. That’s why Blake, Rudy, and Outlaw finished games with LMA last year.
We are going to have to wait and see how well Miller works with Roy when Roy is handling the ball and creating (basically playing PG offensively) before we will know how Nate will finish close games. We may also see Oden finishing games this year depending on how he and Roy learn to work together.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah
Its going to be interesting to see who is in at the end of games. My first thought was Miller Roy (whoever is better at the sf position) aldridge and oden if he has not fouled out. However if having Miller on the floor clogs the lane for Roy than i could see that being a problem. Since the blazers have 2 solid point guards, i dont see Brandon playing the point as much this season, although, his weight loss might suggest otherwise.
Its also going to be interesting to see where Rudy gets his minutes… he is one of the better players on the team, but small forward is stacked so it would not make much since to have Brandon play minutes there (plus he is 13 pounds lighter) and Rudy cant defend small forwards, point guard is stacked, so Rudy or Roy wont get many minutes there either… Rudy is not going to be happy with less minutes, but i just cant see where he is going his playing time besides at the back up sg. Even IF the blazers traded outlaw, which I am still not convinced they will do, Rudy is still out minutes from last year, unless I am missing something.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 22, 2009 2:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Rudy cant defend small forwards"?
He can defend some small forwards. He defended Turkoglu, Batum and some other SFs in the recent Eurobasket 2009..
He outscored all of them by a good margin.
by amlmart1 on Sep 22, 2009 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but it's a different game in the NBA
In Europe, the tendency is to use a motion offense and pass the ball around to the open shooter/cutter
In the NBA, it’s more about exploiting mismatches. So if Nate used Rudy to guard NBA SFs the other coach would clear a side and drop the ball into the SF in the post and force Nate to either send help, or substitute
We can disagree about what style of play is more fun to watch (NBA vs. Euro league) but “it is what it is” And in the NBA playoffs you’re going to see more “size mismatches” exploited than during the regular season
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair
Part of that depends on the other team’s small forward being bigger or better than Rudy.
Even then, if the SF is the 3rd or 4th best guy on the team, the opponent might go to another player.
by tominhawaii on Sep 22, 2009 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree the NBA is "more" about exploiting mismatches.
But teams in Europe try to exploit mismatches too. Turkey tried to give the ball to Turkoglu in the low post when defended by Rudy. It didn´t work.
The Lakers tried it sending Walton to the low post against Rudy. Rudy fight with him, resulting in an offensive foul. It didn´t work for the Lakers.
I don´t really remember a player who has exploited a size mismatch when defended by Rudy. Maybe it happened, but I don´t remember it, probably because Nate agrees with you and avoided it. I´d give it a try just to see what happens.
I agree we can´t use Rudy consistently at SF but I do think he can defend some SFs.
I also agree it can be more difficult in playoffs.
by amlmart1 on Sep 22, 2009 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds right
He’d struggle against LeBron or Melo. Turk isn’t really a low post player, so if they put in him the low post it somewhat takes them out of their game, and isn’t likely to be really effective.
Same with a lot of other SFs. What he gives up in size will be at least partly made up in quickness.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that grabbing
Diaw on a smaller contract (after this one expires) would make a lot of sense.
Hell I’d be willing to go Blake/Outlaw for him now, (but LB wouldn’t), for a real versatile guy who could play point forward/3/4, play solid d, and be unselfish. I’m for adding anybody who plays D, moves w/o the ball, and passes well.
Batum/Rudy/Roy I think would be a very solid backcourt down the line, and I’d love to see Miller and Diaw as stop-gaps to get us there.
by darkhelmit54 on Sep 21, 2009 9:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Batum is already a better ball handler and passer than Diaw on the national team
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
by Norsktroll on Sep 22, 2009 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's just the role he's in w/Parker
because France has no bigs whatsoever, but ask any Charlotte or Phoenix fans, and passing is the one thing that Diaw’s great at. He’s not a star by any means, but he’s an amazing passer.
by darkhelmit54 on Sep 22, 2009 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this midway point in his career, Boris Diaw is almost strictly a high-post facilitator at the 4.
I highly doubt that Diaw ever comes to Portland, but if he it’d be as a backup to LaMarcus Aldridge.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
by AK1984 on Sep 22, 2009 3:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was the whole point
of trying to grab Hedo Turkoglu. He was the only free agent who showed point forward capability, which would allow for the amazing combination of Roy and Fernandez in the back court. We didn’t offer all the cash because he was a stellar player. Hell, he doesn’t even fit our de facto requirements for attitude. We wanted a point forward.
I am fully on board with hoping Nic can become that. My only fear is that he might wait until his later pro career to fully realize it, and we may not have all the right pieces at that point to make full use of it.
by Decaf on Sep 21, 2009 10:16 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
we could have Batum
understudy Diaw for a little while while we institute it.
(if Charlotte starts out very poor, and Dre and Batum are playing well)
Blake/Bayless/Outlaw for Diaw/?
Miller/Diaw
Roy/Fernandez
Batum/Webster
Aldridge/Diaw
Oden/Pryzbilla
I think that would be a really nice well rounded team, solid 9 man rotation where everyone’s getting 20-30 mpg. A lot of good passers out there.
by darkhelmit54 on Sep 21, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Diaw wouldn't be bad
An upgrade over Trout, I’d say.
by goblazer1 on Sep 21, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point
I was also in favor of this for these reasons, as well.
by goblazer1 on Sep 21, 2009 10:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm a fan of the idea
And as already posted above, I think that was the idea behind hedo. But who would defend A quick scoring pg?
by Oggbog on Sep 21, 2009 11:19 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
pat answer:
nobody/team effort/rudy/nic/broy
No worse than what we have now, and nobody can cover those Parker/CP3/AB types
by goblazer1 on Sep 21, 2009 11:25 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I think that
Nic or Rudy can do as well as most PG’s anyways. Parker & Paul will light up anyone, nobody other than that am I extremely worried about with (a more developed) Oden, Pryzbilla, and Aldridge underneath.
by darkhelmit54 on Sep 22, 2009 12:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could Batum learn to fill the role of point guard?
There’s been no one of the dimensions of Magic Johnson since Magic Johnson. Scotty Pipen played point forward, but not consistently. Batum was entrusted with ball handling responsibilities in some of Spain’s resting games in the European tournament. In one game, he handed out 8 dimes. Is he a point in the making?
by Trutherlizer on Sep 22, 2009 1:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Scotty P is the prototype
For the bulls, he often brought the ball up. And the 2000 Blazers were at their best with Pip playing (and Damon on the bench). Anyways, the problem is who can bring the ball up, not who can run the offense. BRoy and eventually Rudy can run the O together just fine, IMO.
by goblazer1 on Sep 22, 2009 9:00 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I find it doubtful, frankly, that Nic would ever be an effective point in the NBA
…and it would be odd if Nic were ever to be entrusted with ball handling responsibilities on the Spanish team. Would be odd because Nic is French.
The counsels of impatience and hatred can always be supported by the crudest and cheapest symbols. For the counsels of moderation, the reasons are often intricate, rather than emotional, and difficult to explain. And so the chauvinists of all times and places go their appointed way: plucking the easy fruits, reaping the little triumphs of the day at the expense of someone else tomorrow, deluging in noise and filth anyone who gets in their way, dancing their reckless dance on the prospects for human progress, drawing the shadow of a great doubt over the validity of democratic institutions. And until peoples learn to spot the fanning of mass emotions and the sowing of bitterness, suspicion, and intolerance as crimes in themselves - as perhaps the greatest disservice that can be done to the cause of popular government - this sort of thing will continue to occur.
by Love on Sep 22, 2009 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice catch
I’m not sure how many people read that comment and missed the “wrong Euro country” reference, but i know I did!
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best 5 for Portland
If Rudy could get PG handling skills improved, at the end of games when Blazers go iso on Roy you’d have Webster and Rudy in the corners and GO and LA down low.
What a brutal 5 to finish a game with, there will ALWAYS be a miss-match and it will get exploited.
by The realist on Sep 22, 2009 1:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I expect Miller to be in the game at the end, for the next 2 years at least
and I will be very surprised if he isn’t, unless the games are already decided by then
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few comments
1. Rudy can already bring the ball up court fairly effectively, and it isn’t something that is beyond him to develop further.
2. The main reason we aren’t likely to see Rudy at PG a lot is because he isn’t really quick enough to be able to defend most PGs. Yet, we will see him play this position at times.
3. I do not understand how someone can write off Bayless because it is too hard to learn how to run the offense and play PG, and yet believe that Nic can learn to run the offense and play point forward.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 22, 2009 2:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just imagining a possibility .....
1) Brandon lost 10+ pounds to get quicker.
2) He’s got a traditional PG in Miller that unlike Blake wants/needs to handle the ball.
3) He’s working on his catch and shoot game which will play well when Miller handles the ball.
4) He sees Rudy’s overall contribution to winning, but perhaps doesn’t want to defend SF’s any more, and sees Webster and Nic able to take all the SF minutes.
5) He still wants/needs to handle the ball to play his game.
So despite Brandon’s earlier reluctance to play PG, he might now see splitting his time between SG and PG as a way to let Miller run the offense when Miller is playing, but still get himself plenty of minutes with the ball, creating the offense. Brandon is effectively playing PG on offense much of the time he plays with Blake now.
Therefore, try a 3-guard rotation of Miller, Roy, and Rudy. Roy and Rudy together could get the ball up the court, so the only issue is defending the PG. Between them, they should be able to defend most PG’s as well as Blake. Blake is still around, as is Bayless for now, or Miller can play a few more minutes, if there are some really bad PG match ups.
PG – Miller 32 minutes, Roy 16
SG – Roy 20, Rudy 28
4th guard – Blake or Bayless
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 4:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i have been looking at the minutes for a while now...
trying to figure out possible scenarios…with yours, blake would not be in the rotation?
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 22, 2009 4:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
at the practice facility yesterday
KP alluded to Rudy playing a fair amount of PG as a possibility, which makes me think that possibly he’ll move Blake or Bayless, but who knows.
by darkhelmit54 on Sep 22, 2009 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
this comment was also made back in July
before Andre was signed. The thinking was they’d try Rudy and Bayless in the same backcourt during the preseason
I seriously doubt KP is planning on “phasing Blake out” of the lineup or is anticipating trading Steve. It could happen if KP gets a great trade offer that must include Steve’s expiring contract, or if Blake complains about his PT and wants to be dealt. The odds of these happening before Feb are probably less than 10%
I’m expecting 48 mpg for the the Miller-Blake tandem during the regular season. The “Rudy at PG” experiment will only last during the preseason as a “hedge” against future injuries to Andre or Steve.
and, if the Blazers get into garbage time situations during the regular season, then Nate can trot out the Bayless-Fernandez backcourt to help both players get more minutes
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i was actually just writting a fanpost about the minutes...
even though it has been a bit overdone. It seems like with Roy losing some weight, Rudy and Roy playing small forward is not an option or at least not a good one.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 22, 2009 4:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 guard lineups
I would say that if the opposing coach chooses to play a 3 guard lineup, then Nate will have an awesome “counter” with PG-Rudy-Roy
but the Blazers shouldn’t be planning to use that “small” lineup trio on a nightly basis
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nate used the 3-guard lineup mostly as a pro-active weapon, not as a counter move.
Good coaches, with good teams, can make the other team match up with them. If you are always responding to match ups forced by the other team you are going to lose.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, but I don't see that philosophy with Nate
McMillian is a defensive coach, and he’s more interested lineup balance and being able to guard the other teams players (i.e., not getting exploited by defensive “size” mismatches) then he is in creating quickness mismatches to force the tempo an outscore the opponent.
For example, against Houston in game 6 Nate started a 3-guard lineup against the Rockets. This proves your point, right? Well, Tthen why did McMillian wait until game 6, when it was clear from the first half of game 1 that Batum/Outlaw weren’t going to get it done, versus Artest and company? Was Nate stupid? No, he just tried hard to make his “conventional” lineups work until it became obvious that he had to “go small”—and then the team still got blown out and Rudy scored 2 points in 41 minutes, anyway
We’re about to find out “would’ve happened” last year, if Webster had been healthy, except that instead of Batum getting the short end of the stick re: PT as a rookie, there’s going to be several unhappy young veterans who will have to accept reduced roles. Toronto has already said they’re going to give Hedo a rest during the preseason, so perhaps Rudy and Nic will come into camp a little “more tired” (or dinged up?) as a result of their Eurobasket participation?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't prove my point or your point.
Nic was playing poorly so he tried another option. That’s all that proved.
What proves my point, is that Nate had a rotation involving Rudy last year that he used in virtually every game regardless of match-ups with the other team. That included a 3-guard lineup for about 10 minutes a game. That rotation was very predictable from game to game, so he wasn’t countering the other coach’s lineup. It’s that simple. How can you possible dispute that?
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I answered that, below
Webster was out, Batum was a rookie, etc. This is a new year, Roy is now playing at 206 lbs (not 215) So don’t assume the rotations will be identical to last year’s mix, etc
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that is right
I think you are both right to an extent. In the past, I think Nate has been more reactive than proactive, in general. I think the three guard lineup last year was reactive, in response to Martell’s injury, but proactive, in the sense that Nate was going to go with it to some extent despite matchups.
But we’re entering a new phase. Our playoff spot is not really in doubt anymore. Instead of trying to survive, we’re one of the beasts of the West, and teams need to respond to what we are doing, rather than the other way around.
Nate saw last year that a three guard lineup could be very effective. It will be even more so if Oden is really a dominant force in the middle. I am not convinced he’s going to abandon it entirely, or only use it when other teams go small. He may well use it at times just to make the other team find a solution.
If we have a dominant defensive center, that will somewhat negate any mismatch problems, with the other team left struggling to negate our quickness advantage with three guards. And of course, if they go small too, most opponents won’t have three guards of the same quality as the ones we can put on the floor, and putting three guards out there means they have less help to try to hold down Greg and LMA inside.
Ultimately, we have an embarrassment of riches, in that we can create mismatches while giving up little to the other team.
And Nate doesn’t have to run a three guard lineup in response to another team doing so, either. Nic (and probably Martell, too) is fully capable of defending an opposing guard.
We’re going to be good enough this year that we don’t have to react to the other team, they have to figure out how to react to us.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah,that.
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 23, 2009 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the 3-guard lineup will only last as long as
the other coach doesn’t substitute a SF who is 220+lbs and can post up guards effectively. As soon as Nate sees Roy (etc) getting scored on down low, it will be time to get Martell back in the game
Like I said before, the 3-guard lineup will depend on matchups, and Nate tends to “think defensively” re: defending the paint. It’s too easy for the opposing PF/C to spread the floor so LMA/Greg can’t give help from the weak side without risking a defensive 3 seconds call
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They play at both ends of the court.
After that small forward chases Rudy around the court without success, he won’t have enough energy left to post up Roy at the other end.
Seriously, … I’ll never forget the hilarious sight of Ron Artest chasing Rudy in a 360 degree full circle around a screen last year. Artest finally just stopped dead in his tracks and then Rudy received a pass and went to the hoop for a layup.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's Rudy's play on You Tube.
I had no idea there was a video of this play, but I just found it on You Tube. It has a nice finish over Yao too. This is the last play (#1) on the video and starts at about 1:35.
My favorite Rudy play of the season. Link
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice
rec
"BEER IS LIVING PROOF THAT GOD LOVES US"
- Benjamin Franklin-
by We-B-Dunkin on Sep 23, 2009 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are a lot of teams
that don’t have both a center and PF who are able to spread the floor. For this to be a problem, you have to have a team with a SF who is too strong for Brandon, and quick enough to not be denied the ball, and a PF and C who are good enough shots to draw the help away.
When Melo tried to post Brandon for a game winning shot a couple years ago, Brandon blocked the shot. Quickness matters as much as size, unless you are dealing with someone who outweighs you be 50 pounds.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 24, 2009 2:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I could see this as Brandon moving more towards the point
You had this:
PG – Miller 32 minutes, Roy 16
SG – Roy 20, Rudy 28
I still hope we’re going to see the second unit as a unit on occasion. So try this out:
PG — Miller 28, Roy 12, Blake 8
SG — Roy 23, Rudy 25
Granted, that cuts Rudy’s PG a little, but if we are doing a lot more running, I don’t think it matters too much. More action in fewer minutes is probably the best way to keep players content.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 22, 2009 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so blake is only getting 8 minutes a game?
he is going from a 31 minute starter to a 8 minutes a game? If the back up pg is only getting 8 minutes a game, wouldn’t it be better to give those 8 minutes to bayles and just trade blake?
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 22, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could happen
It would mean Blake would walk at the end of the year, though.
I’m not saying I want to see this, because I don’t. But it wouldn’t shock me.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 22, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor Jeff Blake.
I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
by haildablazer on Sep 22, 2009 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miller 30 mpg, Blake = 18
and that’s “as low as she goes” for Steve
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have Rudy playing no minutes in a Rudy/Roy backcourt,
and you don’t have a 3-guard lineup being used as part of the “regular” rotation. Therefore, the only minutes you have for Rudy in the “regular” rotation appears to be 10-12 minutes while Brandon is resting. Is that correct? I am certain that won’t happen.
There’s 144 rotation minutes available at PG, SG, and SF. Roy is going to play at least 36 of those minutes, so that leaves 108 minutes for Miller, Blake, Rudy, Batum, and Webster. Unless a Miller/Roy backcourt just doesn’t work (i.e. Roy’s effectiveness drops significantly) Miller is probably going to get at least 28 minutes as the starting PG.
So then we are down to 80 minutes for Blake, Rudy, Batum, and Webster. That is probably manageable for one year – something like Rudy 26, Blake 14, Batum 20, Webster 20, is one possible solution roughly based on last year’s rotations (with Webster substituting for Outlaw, and Blake in Sergio’s spot). Another possibility is a predominantly Roy/Rudy backup backcourt as discussed in this thread.
But Rudy only getting 10-12 minutes behind Roy just isn’t going to fly. If Rudy gets less than 26 minutes (last year’s number) I think he pulls out his Paul Allen autographed “Get Out of Jail for Free Card” and he is out of here by the trading deadline.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I've answered this question, before
There was a fanshot last spring that showed some “lineup efficiency” stats when either Roy or Rudy played PG. They weren’t just bad, they were dreadfully bad. Why anyone would want to “force’” an all-star SG into playing any minutes at the PG when he isn’t interested in that role and when the team already has two above-average veteran PGs already is beyond me
unless…the goal is to find more PT for Rudy
Last year, the SF position was manned by a rookie and a ‘tweener (Batum and Outlaw) So naturally, Nate had to scramble and “shift” Roy over and play a 3-guard lineup wih Rudy at the 2-guard, following Martell’s injury. This year Webster is back, Nic is improved and Brandon is 10+ pounds lighter. And yet, the 3-guard lineup is still being proposed as a nightly option, regardless of how large a SF Roy might have to guard? This would make little sense, unless the goal was…to find more PT for Rudy
Rudy is a good-enough player to win his own minutes on an NBA team, without helping him out by jury-rigging lineups and jerking the team leader from PG to SF, during every ballgame. The roster problem that KP has created is basically unsolvable, if everyone stays healthy. As much as we may try to push and tug the minutes around, it comes down to this question? How is Rudy going to be a long-term Blazer, as long as Roy is an all-star SG? And how long are “ifs” and “maybes” going to be sufficient answers for a contending team, heading into the season?
I’ve got a few more questions, like…
If the Rudy/Roy backcourt is supposed to be a focus during the regular season, then why did KP sign Miller and not deal away Blake, already? And, how much can really be determined by playing Roy and Rudy at the 1/2 for 5 minutes a game, anyway?
How are Batum and Webster ever going to develop as young SFs if their minutes are spliced away and given to Brandon, in an effort to accomodate Fernandez?
We’re going through a lot of trouble for a player who might not even be around in 12-16 months, regardless. If Rudy was a transcendant talent who’s presense on the roster was absolutely necessary to guarantee future championship success then it might ultimately be “worth it” to make Roy flip-flop defensive positions every 5-10 minutes in a game. But I think we can agree that at best, Rudy is just a piece of the puzzle, not “the” cornerstone that can’t be removed without the foundation caving in. I think we’ll see some “Rudy at PG” experimentation in the preseason, but by the end of October the Miller-Blake tandem will be entrenched at the PG position.
Because the goal is to win ballgames, and not to keep all the wings happy
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Winnar.
There was a fanshot last spring that showed some "lineup efficiency" stats when either Roy or Rudy played PG. They weren’t just bad, they were dreadfully bad. Why anyone would want to "force’" an all-star SG into playing any minutes at the PG when he isn’t interested in that role and when the team already has two above-average veteran PGs already is beyond me
unless…the goal is to find more PT for Rudy
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Sep 22, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see something different in Rudy than you do.
I’ll never convince you so I won’t try. All the questions will be answered for real soon enough (but I will happily take any bet you like that Rudy will average more than 12 minutes a game). So I’ll simply answer your questions.
First, offensively Roy plays PG most of the time when Blake is in the game, and that went pretty well. So I don’t think those stats are meaningful. Roy is going to have a much bigger adjustment giving the ball to Miller and playing with him. Roy has yet to play with someone like Miller in the NBA. I could turn around your rhetorical question and ask why would anyone want to "force’" an all-star SG into changing his game to play with Miller? The answer is the same to both questions. Because hopefully the team gets better.
“Why did KP sign Miller and not deal away Blake?”
Miller was a free agent. do you want KP to waive Blake because he got Miller? There is no guarantee that Rudy can play backup PG (I put the probability at no more than 50%), so it would be crazy to get rid of Blake unless you were sure Rudy could play PG.
“How are Batum and Webster ever going to develop as young SFs?”
How is Rudy going to develop if you give him 10 minutes behind Roy only? It’s the same issue. I’m betting on Rudy, but like I said it’s not worth trying to convince you. But worst case, there’s still 38 minutes available at SF, and probably closer to 42 if you push the PG option for Rudy. So there is plenty of time for Batum and Webster to show what they can do at SF. At the start of the year they will probably share about 20 minutes each, so this is a non-issue. Rudy isn’t stopping Webster or Batum’s development.
You keep framing this issue by saying we shouldn’t accommodate or keep Rudy happy, or we shouldn’t juggle roles to get Rudy playing time. Great! I’m not arguing against that.
Batum played only 18 minutes a game last year. Was that to keep Rudy happy? No, Rudy got more minutes than Batum because he contributed more. If Rudy can contribute more than Blake at backup PG, then give him the job. If a 3-guard lineup contributes more than giving Batum or Webster an extra 10 minutes, then give Rudy that time. That’s all I’ve said.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
offensively Roy plays PG most of the time when Blake is in the game, and that went pretty well. So I don’t think those stats are meaningful.
The stats I was referring to was when Roy was playing PG, not Blake. I know you think that since Brandon handles the ball a lot on offense that makes him the “functional” PG…but when Steve was in the game, the Blazer’s “PG” rating was much higher. Typically, Blake doesn’t get much credit for the way he gets the team into their halfourt sets and makes sure the other players are getting the ball in good positions to score. All everyone sees is Brandon in ISOs or P&Rs pounding the rock, so they think he’s got enough ball-handing skill to be a passable PG, but that’s only a part of the job description.
In the end, it doesn’t matter how much “we” like Blake, since Nate and Brandon’s feelings about Steve haven’t changed over the summer. Miller is going to demand 30 mpg by his play in camp and preseason, and Blake won’t give up the rest of the PG minutes to Bayless or any hybrid guard combo. Rudy’s chief competition for PT will be Batum and Webster, and may the best man who will help the team win games in the short and long term get the lion’s share of the available wing minutes
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to 82games.com, Roy played 4 minutes at PG last year
Functionally he played PG much more, but if you go by when Roy was the smallest player then he only played 4 minutes at PG. During those 4 minutes the team played pretty poorly, but it really isn’t a large enough sample to be at all meaningful.
by trk on Sep 23, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have a comman theme about winning games...
But then you go into the comfort of Roy and how that should account for something. Truth is that with Blake playing significant minutes, this team will not win a playoff series. He is too easy to guard, he just isn’t a big enough threat to play along side Roy if we are to compete for NBA championship. Maybe Rudy and Roy don’t mesh right away, but figuring out away is far more important than another first round exit.
by TeamChemistry on Sep 22, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truth is that with Blake playing significant minutes, this team will not win a playoff series
you need to define “signficant minutes” I made a similar comment about Blake as a starting PG following the playoffs, and I was making proposals for the Blazers to upgrade the starting PG position since last winter. But I’ve also maintained that Steve will be one of the best backup PGs in the league, and that Nate/Brandon/KP really like him, and that I expect SB to be extended and not dealt before his contract expires next July.
As far as Rudy and Roy “meshing” as a backcourt, the ‘08-09 stats revealed that neither played the PG that well, and the aquisition of Miller tells me that the Blazer’s brass were pretty sure that Roy/Rudy wouldn’t be a viable backcourt combo for at least the next 2 years
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those PG stats are based on 3-5 minutes per game
and stats like that don’t convince me of anything.
I personally don’t like any of these stats that try to break up team performance vs player combinations because they can’t be based on apples vs apples (there are 5 guys on a team and opponents change players too).
But if stats like that are your thing, Roy’s best +/- performance last year was when he played with Blake or Rudy.
Roy with:
Blake +11
Rudy +11
Sergio +3
Bayless +6
LMA +10
Przy +10
Nevertheless, you keep advocating in this and other threads that Roy and Rudy shouldn’t be playing together, even though Roy plays better with Rudy (or Blake) than anyone else on the team.
You’ve also said that the 3-guard lineup shouldn’t be a regular part of our rotation, and that it isn’t a weapon, just a counter move. Well clearly it was part of our regular rotation (we used it virtually every game). Moreover, the Blazers best 5-man player combination in Win% was the 3-guard lineup with Roy, Rudy, Blake, Outlaw, and Przy.
So if you want to live by the stats, you will have to die by the stats.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
your proposal is for Roy and Rudy to play in the backcourt for 4-5 mpg
so I think the poor stats for either of them playing the PG position (without Miller of Blake being in the game) are relevant
the better stats with them playing together at the “wing” positions don’t answer the defensive questions (who will defend the larger SFs?) and Roy’s off-season decision to lose weight
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stats are only relevent if there is a large enough sample size to be statistically significant
In this case there isn’t, so the stats Roy and Rudy in the backcourt together are pretty meaningless.
by trk on Sep 23, 2009 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, y'all made me seach, and I found the fanpost
Here’s the link
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/5/17/875651/combo-guards
The issue was PG purity, not offensive efficiency. And the salient comment I remembered from Nick Van Excellent was this:
The bad news is that a backcourt of Roy and Rudy looks like it might be a disaster. Both of them are shooting guards, and although Roy can run the point effectively for stretches, he’s just not going to cut it as the teams full time distributor.
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's very convincing ????????
According to the ratings you are basing your argument on Sergio ranks higher than Blake, Billups, Parker, Miller, Harris …. In fact, Sergio is #4 on the list just ahead of Blake at #5.
Obviously then, we made a big mistake. We should be starting Sergio, with Blake his backup, and Miller sitting on the bench in street clothes.
End of argument.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you still like the idea of playing a backcourt of Roy-Rudy after reviewing that chart
Then all I can say is “wow”
First, I hear that ’the stats say Roy and Rudy at the 2-3 was a great combo!" Then Roy decides to lose 10+ pounds during the offseason…oops!
So, then the argument morphs into “A-ha! Brandon is skinny, now so he must be getting ready to play more PG” Except the stats say he and Rudy really suck at playing PG
How about…we let the scoring PGs score and the real PGs play PG? Nah, then Rudy won’t get his 25-30 mpg, and we can’t have that!
(deciding to focus on Sergio was a nice red herring, BTW)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You brought up the chart.
According to you Rudy can’t play point guard because he is low on the chart, but Sergio is #4 on the chart. So what’s the correlation between the chart and the ability to play PG if most of the best PG’s are way below Sergio, and Miller is way below Blake? How can you use the chart when it agrees with your position and ignore it when it doesn’t? The chart simply has no correlation with a player’s actual ability to play PG. Chris Paul below Sergio is ludicrous.
Personally, I could care less about any of these statistics. The only thing that matters is if a player contributes to the team winning. My position is simply to give your best players a chance to play and see if that works. I’m done arguing about it. We’ll see lots of combination’s in pre-season, and perhaps early in the season. It don’t matter what you or I think, we will know soon enough.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't have to have a high "PG purity" to be a good PG
And if someone who was playing a different position is moved to a PG role, it is reasonable to expect their assists (and their PG purity rating) to increase. Really that says more about the role that a player is playing than it does about the roles that they are capable of playing.
by trk on Sep 23, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chris Paul scored 67 on that list, 2 pts ahead of Blake, but 16 pts behind Sergio.
So if we could get Chris Paul we should give him the backup spot behind Sergio.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy besides Pau Gasol is for the Spanish national team "the" cornerstone that can’t be removed without the foundation caving in.
Spain has won the 2006 World Championship, the silver medal in Eurobasket 2007, the silver medal in the 2008 Olympics and the 2009 Eurobasket. They could win without Calderon, who was injured during the Olympics and didn´t play this summer. They couldn´t do it without Rudy. That won´t probably be the case for the Blazers, because they have Roy-LA-Oden, but I´d do everything is possible and something more to keep him in the Blazers, because he increases their chances a lot, IMO.
by amlmart1 on Sep 22, 2009 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let me put it to you this way
Rudy is a really good player, but he plays behind Roy at SG. For Rudy to “progress” as an NBA star, he’s going to need to play more SG minutes than will be available for him in Portland, unless Brandon gets injured. As much as folks try to move Roy around to PG or SF to make more “room” for Rudy to play in Portland, the fact remains that he and Roy will always defend NBA 2-guards the best,. Neither player is going to get “bigger” to defend SFs regularly and neither player has a PG’s mentality—nor should they have to start thinking “pass first”—they’re scoring guards who can effectively put the ball in the basket in different ways.
I think that it will be in Rudy’s best interest to eventually play for another NBA team. Not because I dislike him, he’s a great player with a great personality—who can not like Rudy? I just see the PT conflict at the SG position as being impossible to resolve, and any attempt to “circumvent” the issue will just lead to frustration for the team and Fernandez. I know Portland’s management thinks highly of Rudy and they’ll need to be blown away with a trade offer before they’ll deal him away, but that offer should come as he improves and another NBA team has an opening at SG and has a player that KP really likes, in return. How soon this will happen I have no idea, but I’ve put the timeline during the next 15-21 months, as an estimate
I don’t know if you remember Drazen Petrovic, but the Blazers were in a similar conundrum back in 1990, with Petro not getting enough PT playing behind Clyde Drexler at SG. Drazen went to New Jersey and became an NBA all-star, and I can see Rudy’s career path needing to make the same kind of “transition” before he gets the opportunity to really shine
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who can say Petro wouldn't have outplayed Ainge
and we beat LA in 90-91, or Chicago in 91-92?
That was a similar situation, and we will never know if moving Petro was the right move. We do know that without him we lost in 90-91 and 91-92.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who said? Rick Adelman and Geoff Petrie?
the Petro-Drexler backcourt couldn’t guard Kevin Johnson or John Stockton (etc) and that was before the hand-checking rules
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not that simple.
Petro is 4th all-time NBA career leader in 3-pt shooting. He was 3rd team all-NBA in ‘92’ ahead of Drexler, Porter, Ainge, et.al. The guy could play ball and it was very evident whenever Adelman let him off the bench.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me put it to you this way
If a Roy-Rudy guard combo is more effective than Roy-Miller or Roy-Blake, then we’ll see a Roy-Rudy guard combo, even if it means someone playing “out of position” or Roy “moving around to PG to make room for Rudy”. The question is not who is out of position, the question is which guard combos are best.
And Rudy doesn’t have to be part of our best guard combo, he only has to be better than Roy with one of our PGs and he will take minutes from that PG.
Same at the wings. If a Rudy-Roy wing combo is more effective than a Roy-Nic or Roy-Martell combo, we’ll see that combo, even if someone is being “pushed out of position”.
That’s really all that needs to be said. Rudy only needs to be more effective next to Roy than one of our other guards or one of our other SFs/wings for us to see Rudy and Roy on the court together. Given his deep threat, and the value it brings in synergy with Roy’s penetration threat, I’m quite certain that we’ll see it.
While I think it is possible we’ll see Rudy and Brandon together in the backcourt, I think it is more probable that we see them together on the wings. Miller and Roy need a deep threat at the 3, and I pretty much expect that our closing lineup in close games this year will be Andre, Brandon, Rudy, LaMarcus, and Greg. We may not see that every game, but I strongly suspect that will be what we see in close ones.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 2:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They could also put Martell
in for that same deep threat tho.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
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by jpaulson on Sep 23, 2009 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that way neither Rudy or Brandon
has to guard the opposing small forward.. Nate did not really like having Roy guard sf last season (he did it anyway) i think he will like it even less this season with Roy being 10+ pounds lighter… but thats just speculation.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 23, 2009 2:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are right
and if Martell is as effective as Rudy that is what will happen.
Personally, I think that Martell could be as effective as Rudy but am doubtful as to whether it will happen this year. I thought he was ready to break out last year, but missing a year has both physical and mental effects.
We’ll see.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 2:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
very true
I am hoping that he is awesome this year, but I would not be surprised if it took him a while to get back to where he was at.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 23, 2009 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Serious Question jscot -
It’s hard for me to imagine that Roy is going to give the rock to Miller in the last 3-4 minutes of close games and then run around and try to get a catch and shoot behind a screen. I think Nate goes with his formula – give the ball to your best player, and Roy tries to penetrate and shoot or dish off.
But Miller can’t sit in the corner and spread the floor for Roy as Blake does so effectively. How do you see Miller being used at the end of close games?
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Miller has the ball
and we run Brandon off some screens to get him the ball in medium range position rather than 30 feet from the basket.
He’s working on that mid-range jumper, remember.
I have two pictures in my mind. The first is Brandon getting the ball way outside, and working to break down his man.
The second is Brandon getting the ball at 12-15 feet from the basket, and he hasn’t even used his dribble yet. If he drives past his man, there isn’t time for any help to come, when he starts that close to the basket. So the help has to come before he even dribbles the ball. Help from where?
Of course, you can design your whole defense to deny him the ball in that position. That’s going to work really well for you, if you leave Andre open to penetrate. Or Rudy open for the 3, or to cut back door for the oop. Andre will connect with him, you know. That’s pretty much a given.
Of course, you can have your big men help to deny Brandon the ball by cheating out on the screen. Except, well, there’s this little thing called an off-the-ball pick and roll, where the big man setting the screen rolls to the hoop. Of course, Andre just might possibly be able to find a big man rolling to the hoop. So you probably don’t want to have your big man cheating out to deny Brandon the ball, because an alley oop to Greg or LaMarcus isn’t something you really want to happen, either.
Of course, there’s always the possibility that Brandon starts around a screen and then cuts back toward the hoop. So Brandon’s man can’t be cheating around the screen the other way, either.
Ultimately, you’re going to get the ball to Brandon in a better position than 30 feet out, unless the defense gives you something easy and deadly first.
So you give the ball to Andre but run the play to get Brandon the ball in killer position, and take whatever the defense gives you. The worst thing that happens, in my opinion, is Rudy shooting a wide open 3, and Rudy is an assassin, a clutch player who is going to knock down probably better than 50% of wide open 3s at that point in the game.
I think “Nate’s formula” will change because this kind of offensive attack will become so effective in the regular season that Nate and Brandon are going to want Andre to have the ball in that situation.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
good stuff
I expect Miller to be in the lineup at the end of close games; you just can’t leave his BBIQ on the bench in those situations. Roy will get easier opportunities to score, like you mentioned, and Andre will make the defense pay with penetration from the weak side if they rotate to cut off Brandon’s drives
I think Travis will be the “odd man out” of these scenarios
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think so, too
LMA is on the court. The question is Greg or Travis. I think Greg’s offensive rebounding and defensive strength, and Andre’s ability to get him the ball for easy buckets, means Greg will be in.
I could potentially see Travis in on offensive possessions, especially if we are down three, and Greg in on defense. Travis does seem to have ice-water in his veins in the fourth, and as long as he is here, I’d be inclined to look for ways to use that to advantage.
If I thought it would work, and I were the coach, I’d be tempted to sit him all game until the last 8 minutes and then say, “Travis, your time to do it.”
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the reply.
I think "Nate’s formula" will change because this kind of offensive attack will become so effective in the regular season that Nate and Brandon are going to want Andre to have the ball in that situation.
I was thinking the “Miller to Roy attack” will have to become very successful “in the rest of the game” before we will eventually see it late in games. I think Nate goes with his highly successful “give it to Brandon” formula until it’s proven that Miller can make plays for Roy with equal or better efficiency.
The problem with Miller handling the ball at the end of the game is that it creates the risk that the defense is able to deny the ball getting to Roy at all, i.e. one more thing to go wrong in the offensive set. While we have other good players to step up, I still like our premier player making the decision to take it himself or give it up at crunch time. Seems to me it is usually Kobe with ball at the end of games, or it was MJ with the ball deciding when to give that last shot to Kerr or take it himself.
I’m glad to read that you have a lot of confidence in Miller. If Miller is deserving of taking over that responsibility we will certainly be much improved this year. It’s going to be great (hopefully) watching Roy and Miller learn to play together, as well as what I hope Miller can do for Oden and others.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Miller is all world or anything
but I think he is excellent at reading defenses.
If the defense denies Roy the ball, they are going to give up something that makes them pay.
If Brandon is in an iso, and Rudy’s man leaves him to double Brandon, we’ll take a wide open 3 in a heartbeat. So also if Rudy’s man leaves him to help deny Brandon the ball.
It’s just not that easy to deny someone the ball when the other team is running him off screens.
And yes, I have confidence in Miller to see what they give you. Where we might have a weakness is if Greg’s man cheats on the screen to help deny Brandon the ball, and Greg (or LMA) doesn’t recognize it in time to punish it by rolling to the hoop. But they’ll learn pretty quickly, IMO.
You are right that it will have to be successful in the rest of the game. But if it is, Brandon is going to want Andre in there, and the ball in his hands.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same at the wings. If a Rudy-Roy wing combo
This thread is about the PG position, not the wings. I submit that neither Roy or Rudy have the defensive chops or the pass-first mentality to play NBA PG as part of a regular (3-guard) rotation.
Do you disagree?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It has wandered around to the wings here and there, too
I’m not sure that either of them are worse at defending PGs than Blake. And if you have three ball-handling players who are all good passers (think Rudy, Roy, and Nic) on the court, you could certainly run an offense without a traditional PG for 10-12 mpg.
So yes, I disagree. I’m not saying that either of them is the optimum PG defensively or a pure PG offensively. That is obviously not the case. But they bring so much to the table offensively that I can easily see the possibility of it out-weighing what is lost.
Remember, this was Rudy’s first year with Nate’s offense, there were the usual language and cultural barriers, etc. We’ll get a much better feel of whether Rudy can run the point effectively if he gets much chance to do it this year. Rudy was great last year for his first year in a new country, new league, new role, new everything.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Blazers either have to find a long-term fit for Rudy
or they will have to move him next summer or early next season. With Webster returning and Miller playing many more minutes than Sergio did, something has to give.
So far Rudy’s received 25 minutes with a combination of a 3-guard lineup, backing up Roy, and a couple minutes in a Roy/Rudy backcourt. While they could continue that mix long term (eventually having to trade Webster or Batum for a lack of SF/SG minutes), I think a Roy/Rudy backcourt better fits Brandon’s natural role.
Whether Rudy is the PG (as I’ve been advocating) or Brandon is the PG (as I imagined above) is mostly just a label. Brandon is going to handle the ball and be the creator a great deal of the time (as he does now when playing with Blake, and does almost exclusively in the last 5-6 minutes of close games). The key is Roy/Rudy being able to defend a PG. Roy dropping 10 pounds or more may increase the probability that between the two of them, one of them will be able to defend the PG for 12-16 minutes a game. That is what inspired my earlier post.
Sure Blake could still play 8 minutes or so a game. By taking a few minutes away from Rudy (as you show) and/or using some 3-guard lineup (which I think Nate will still want to do in spots as a weapon). With his experience that may be enough to keep him sharp, content (but not satisfied), and ready to step in for injuries.
I absolutely love Steve Blake. But ultimately some players are either going to have to accept limited roles or move on. If we extend Blake for a reasonable salary I think he will accept a limited role, but then we can also trade him as part of a good opportunity. Rudy isn’t in that situation. He isn’t going to accept a role of just backing up Roy for 10-12 minutes a game, and I’d bet Paul Allen made certain commitments to play or trade him when Allen made a special trip to Spain to convince Rudy to come over. So I expect Rudy either finds a fit this year or he will be leaving. I’m certainly not going to worry about losing Blake if that is what it takes to keep Rudy and the Roy/Rudy backcourt works.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 22, 2009 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Roy's "comfort level" count for anything?
Brandon and Blake have good synergy going. As Nate likes to say, the starting lineup won 54 games last year. Still, Andre Miller was a great adition and should eventually mesh well with Roy, as well
(do you see where i’m going, yet?)
Brandon is already going to have a learning curve with Miller, at the PG. Your “play Rudy-Roy together in the backcourt for 4-5 mpg” idea is going to cut into the Roy-Blake on-court “relationship” which was vital to the team’s success, last year. Do you think Nate/Brandon are going to be willing to head down that road, while Roy is getting accustomed to playing alongside Miller in the backcourt, at the same time?
Seems counter-productive, to me
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 22, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have a comman theme about winning games...
But then you go into the comfort of Roy and how that should account for something. Truth is that with Blake playing significant minutes, this team will not win a playoff series. He is too easy to guard, he just isn’t a big enough threat to play along side Roy if we are to compete for NBA championship. Maybe Rudy and Roy don’t mesh right away, but figuring out away is far more important than another first round exit.
by TeamChemistry on Sep 22, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry about Roy.
He will get what he wants. Miller is insignificant in the long term. He is only important for a couple of years, and then only if he makes us better.
The Roy-Miller tandem will last as long as Roy wants it to last. If he doesn’t like changing his style to fit Miller, and the team gets worse as a result, Blake will be starting and finishing games. Miller was brought in to make the team better. If it doesn’t work Nate won’t lose many games trying to force an unhappy Brandon to make it work.
Same goes for any effort to make Rudy into a backup PG. That also lasts as long as Brandon wants it to last, but there is a possibility for Rudy to have a longer lasting impact on the team’s success. I think Brandon’s a winner, and he’ll try what he thinks (and what others may convince him) is good for the team. But if he gets very far outside his “comfort level” he’ll speak up, or it just won’t be working, and Nate will shut it down.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Sep 23, 2009 1:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am suggesting a bifurcation of PG duties. Batum could bring it up the court, Rudy and Roy can initiate and run the half court offense. In this scenario Bayless would also gain because he could play a Paxon/Kerr to Batum’s Pippen type roll.
by goblazer1 on Sep 22, 2009 9:03 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Rudy is quick enough to defend PGs
Or at least, he is quicker than Steve Blake or Andre Miller. Rudy has the fastest time on the lane agility test of any player on the Blazers. If he isn’t fast enough to defend PGs, then who is?
by trk on Sep 22, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree about Rudy being quick
He doesnt move his feet like a great defensive player would. He plays a more gambling style. Still, I actually think he can defend the 1 ok. As can Batum. So with either of them in, Roy won’t have to d the pg.
by goblazer1 on Sep 22, 2009 11:56 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Question
How come old point guards likes Kidd and Nash don’t get tired bringing the ball up every game but Roy would get tired if he had to do it in games?
by tominhawaii on Sep 22, 2009 4:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
he is selfish havent you heard?
its not that he would get tired, he just doesnt want to do it, so thats that.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 22, 2009 4:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don't also have to go one on five
in the last four minutes of the game, like Brandon does.
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 22, 2009 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They don't
but guys like Chris Paul and Deron Williams do. Sure they have West and Boozer, but there’s nothing saying LaMarcus can’t touch the ball at the end of the game either.
I think the issue with not running Brandon at the point has more to do with not having another ball handler out there (I can’t say I’d trust Nic, Rudy, or Webster to be able to put the ball on the floor if a team decided to pressure at all), keeping Brandon from defending PGs, and the fact that he simply isn’t at his absolute best if he’s looking to distribute first. He’s a top 3-4 guy in the league at getting his own shot, and you just can’t say the same thing about his distribution.
by Royster on Sep 22, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's another option
There’s this rule in basketball that says one player can throw the ball to another player, even to advance the ball. It’s called a pass. In fact, studies show that the ball can get up the court much faster using this pass technique instead of a player dribbling it all the way. I understand it requires teamwork and is more complicated, but I’d like to think the Blazers could master this technique for advancing the ball up the court.
I’ve seen it used in vintage NBA footage (in fact I think the one Blazer championship team used it a lot) and I think, with some work, it could prove effective in the modern game.
by LaughingJon on Sep 22, 2009 8:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
PLEASE don't ISO BRoy all 4th quarter!
I think the BRoy iso, despite his tremendous talent, does more to harm our overall offense in the late stages of the game than help it. Sure, if we need ONE hoop at the END of the game, fine, go ISO.
But I really hope that Dre has the ball whenever he is in there, and that Dre is in there at the end of the games, and that BRoy learns how to move without the ball more effectively. I see no reason to change what should be a very good ball movement offense in the 4th quarter, and revert to “doing a Portland”…
I do think we’ll see Nate do a ton of offense/defense substitions down the stretch of late games: Rudy in on offense (to create our 3 G set), Nic in on defense, e.g.
An don’t forget, Rudy is going to get all of the 2 minutes during what should be frequent blow outs in the 4th.
As I said earlier, players care about shots more than minutes. If we up the tempo, we should create enough shots, and keep players who like to run like Rudy and Batum and Dre, happy… I hope…
CoY Nate sure has a tough job this year, but they are great problems to have..
Blazers: RUN away with the title!
KP: Please don't trade the next decade's Scottie Pippen (Batum), Spanish Larry Bird (Rudy), Bill Russell (GO) or Captain BRoy - at least until they 3-peat..
by Visionary2 on Sep 22, 2009 9:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think we've reached a point on BE where it is time to break into rival gangs
Chain wielding, mohawk sporting, Michael Jackson jacket wearing gangs. You all know what I’m talking about. These two gangs will be defined by what positions we think Roy and Rudy can play. We’ve all made our arguments; now the time has come for B-movie drama.
Gang 1: Roy and Rudy are shooting guards. Period. They are highly skilled enough to play spot minutes at point guard or small forward, but that puts them out of position.
Gang 2: Roy and Rudy are shooting guards, point guards and small forwards. Whatever combination smells right today.
I am firmly in Gang 1, and I’m drawing the line. Are you with me, or are you a member of Gang 2? Let’s just hope this doesn’t get (too) violent.
Still on the Rex bandwagon.
by dan_the_man on Sep 22, 2009 11:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm in gang 3: Jerryd is the point guard beyond Andre Miller, until he gets traded or a new guy of about the same age gets brought in
I.e. all bets are off if KP can draft John Wall, or engineers a trade for Conley or someone like that.
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
by Norsktroll on Sep 23, 2009 3:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As for the other gangs, really I’m in neither but tending more towards 1. Roy and Rudy can only co-exist on the floor against most teams if Rudy plays a Nate-style SF on offense (sitting in the corner or running himself free off the ball) and defends the SG on defense, and conversely with Roy as SG/ball handling guard on offense and against the opposing SF on defense. Neither is particularly well suited to be a point guard for most of a game. There are too many lightning-quick opponents for that who would steal them the ball and drive past them.
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
by Norsktroll on Sep 23, 2009 3:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm in Gang 2 and want to trade Batum to created playing time for Rudy
by tominhawaii on Sep 23, 2009 4:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i can never tell when you are serious
most of the time I assume you’re not.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 23, 2009 4:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm 1/2 serious
I don’t like Batum but if he becomes a great player, then I’ll change my mind.
by tominhawaii on Sep 23, 2009 4:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 23, 2009 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like all our players
"if Nate has Roy or Miller in the game at all times, that stagnation will turn into conflagration" -- two4larue
by jscot on Sep 23, 2009 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reason I don't like Batum has nothing to do with him
I like everyone else though.
by tominhawaii on Sep 23, 2009 5:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I will start my own gang..
I will call it #25…. Its time to trade away Roy, LMA, and Greg and rebuild the team around Outlaw. Roy is selfish, LMA is to soft, and Greg is a bust.
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 23, 2009 4:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You missed the optimal point in time, when we could have still rebuilt around Sergio, Rudy, Travis, Channing
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
by Norsktroll on Sep 23, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
darn
i guess I will just have to be happy with what we got,,
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 23, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bukowski in your sig line?
Cool.
My fave quote: "Some people never go crazy, What truly horrible lives they must live"
You’ve probably seen the documentary “Born Into This”. Go forth and spread the word.
- Munky
~ visualize whirled peas
by BlazerMunky on Sep 24, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah thats a pretty good documentary.
I have only read a bit of his work but it is really good. war all the time is one of my favorites. Lately I have been reading a lot of chuck paliniuk.. he is amazing. He has written a lot of great stuff such as fight club, choke, and Diary.. Probably one of my favorite authors!
"The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting"
"I don't like jail, they got the wrong kind of bars in there"
Charles Bukowski
by jpaulson on Sep 24, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can put me in gang 2
Roy and Rudy are both good players, and a good player “playing out of position” is still almost always better than a bad player in his natural position. Besides, Roy and Fernandez have complimentary skill sets: Roy is great with the ball in his hands, and Rudy is excellent playing off the ball.
Defensively, I don’t think there would be a major problem playing Roy and Fernandez together, especially in a “big” lineup with them at PG and SG. Fernandez is so much more athletic than Steve Blake is that he can probably be at least as good of an on-ball defender at the PG position as Blake is. However, even if Rudy is playing PG, he won’t always be defending a PG (because of zone defenses, switches on P&R, letting Batum guard some star PGs, etc). That is why having a bigger/taller guard like Rudy at PG is a big advantage defensively, since he will be able to guard bigger players more effectively when he gets switched onto them, as well as use his extra length to disrupt passes, block shots, and grab rebounds. Overall, having Rudy at PG should be a significant positive defensively compared to having someone like Blake at PG.
Having Roy and Rudy at the 2/3 wouldn’t be as good defensively as having them at the 1/2, because now the size mismatches would be working against them. Still, if they have to guard a bigger player, that means that the bigger (and most likely slower) player will also have to guard them. If they are only guarding 1 position larger than themselves, the drop in defense shouldn’t be that big and they can mostly make it up by exploiting the quickness advantage on offense.
by trk on Sep 23, 2009 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that this is Miller's last contract with the Blazers
2-4 the who
by 24thewho on Sep 23, 2009 11:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Andre will take over for Nate as Portland's head coach in...2015?
I’ll take “off-the-wall predictions” for $600, Alex
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
KP's comment from media day
Kevin Pritchard re. 15th roster spot: “They say you can never have too many bigs. But I’m a former PG + you can never have too many PGs”
http://twitter.com/blazersedge
So either he wants to try Rudy/Roy at PG or he wants to add a 4th PG to the 15-man roster? Either way, it’s overkill. Just add a center at #15 and hope you never have to use ’em
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 4:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I suppose this comment does shed some light on the Patty Mills selection at #55
“A PG is a PG, no matter how small” — Horton, the elephant
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Sep 23, 2009 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love that movie
But Patty Mills as #15 would be kind of a waste for both sides. He needs to get healthy and then needs development time, and the Blazers already have 3 more or less true guys who play PG and 2-3 more guys who could handle the ball if push comes to shove. It would be better for him if they could find him a spot in a team in Europe that is pretty sure to make the playoffs or has injury issues itself, or at least in the D-League.
"I think he can still play" - Kevin Pritchard on Juwan Howard
by Norsktroll on Sep 23, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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