Schedule and Roy
by Dave on Aug 5, 2009 12:01 AM PDT
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PrintHere I was, all hyped up to do an stirring, long schedule analysis post and...pfffft. The schedule looks pretty normal. It's nothing like last year's early-season grindfest nightmare. On the other hand the Blazers did exceptionally well during that early-season grindfest which set up their 54 wins. There are few extended uphill runs this season but that means there are also few downhill coasting opportunities.
If you're looking for a tough patch, mark down the L*ker games on January 8th and February 6th. They bookend a stretch where 12 out of 16 games are against playoff-caliber opponents. Fortunately only 5 of those 12 tough games come on the road. Other than that you've got some tough 3-4 game spots, but little extended brutality.
The longest road trip for the Blazers this year is 5 games, which happens twice. Portland also has three 4-game trips. Mid-November sees a relatively tame trip featuring Memphis, Minnesota, New Orleans, Charlotte, and Atlanta. December gets hairy with a 4-game jaunt to New York, Indiana, Cleveland, and Milwaukee followed by two games at home and then another 4-gamer to Orlando, Miami, Dallas, and San Antonio. The last 4-game trip comes in January versus Washington, Philadelphia, Boston, and Detroit. The final 5-game swing comes at the end of February with the Blazers traveling to New Jersey, Toronto, Chicago, Minnesota, and Memphis. Of all of them the second December trip is obviously the most difficult.
With the rough trips all done by the 1st of March Portland has a chance to finish the season strong. This is the opposite of last year when they really needed to win in January to pad their record for the spring onslaught. If the Blazers are looking good in mid-February there's a good chance they'll have a fantastic season.
This seems like a year when the Blazers will win and lose solely on their own merits. A couple teams in the West have gotten considerably weaker. Outside of Dallas there's nobody really barking at them from behind. The field ahead is crowded but closely so. If the team can keep their collective heads on straight and punch hard in the early season again there will be plenty of chances to pass teams. If the Blazers lose concentration, however, the margin still looks thin. This schedule won't hurt you, but it doesn't go out of the way to help you either.
The other news that broke yesterday was Jason Quick reporting that the Blazers and Brandon Roy are getting closer to a contract signing. "Closer" is a nebulous term here, as we don't really know how far away they were in the first place. But Roy's agent is described as "optimistic" and agents are usually the best barometers in these situations. There was no doubt about a deal getting done, of course, but it'll still be interesting to see what the eventual terms are.
Let's take this opportunity to talk about Brandon, which is something we don't do much because he's the least squeaky of all the wheels on the Blazer bus. I'm not sure there's much more you could expect of him as far as contributions to the team so we're going to buzz over that discussion for now and go to a more speculative question.
If you ask who the greatest player in Blazer history is I would suspect a majority of people would say Clyde Drexler. Bill Walton would get some votes also, and appropriately so. Had he not gotten injured he would have finished ahead of Clyde even, for championships if nothing else. There's no way that Brandon deserves to be mentioned in that conversation yet. Anyone tempted should look at Clyde's stats and the number of wins he led the Blazers to over his 11+ years in Portland. However I suspect most of us could envision Brandon taking that (admittedly unofficial) title someday. Here are the questions: Will Brandon one day be considered the best player ever to don a Blazer uniform? What would it take to make him so? Why do you think he will or won't make it?
Prognosticate and debate below if you wish.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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It's going to depend on his health
If he stays reasonably healthy, he’ll end up as the best Blazer of all time.
by TheThinWhiteDuke on Aug 5, 2009 12:05 AM PDT reply actions
Exactly
Health. But I would also say a championship or two would seal it.
Life's short, Stunt it!!
by Irwin Fletcher on Aug 5, 2009 7:24 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed
Drexler’s body was virtually bulletproof. Given the same amount of years – My money’s on Clyde for durability. Brandon could very well be onto an assistant coach job after his 10th season.
Portland's PG of the Future - Meet John Wall
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
wow Clyde had a great 88-89
Brandon is, in my opinion, likely to take this title. BBE. It’s his destiny.
As long as he remains a Blazer,
Brandon will surpass Clyde. Now he may not score as many points as Clyde but Brandon is better able to find the right time to take over a game. He reminds me of a Magic Johnson type player, Able to make his teammates better. Clyde could Glyde but Brandon finds the chinks in the armor and destroys them.
Given time...
I think that Brandon could do it. If he is a Blazer for his entire career and stays reasonably healthy into his mid thirties I would say it is a lock. Obviously if he leads us to a title or two that would cement it but I still think that he can be the best even without the ring. Being the player who saved the Blazers for a whole generation of fans who, such as myself, were mere toddlers for Clyde’s glory days probably skews my opinion a bit however I’ve watched enough basketball to more than appreciate how glorious he was and how close those teams were to the top (A healthy limber young Sabonis perhaps). I digress, I think we can all agree he is more likely than zach randolph to be remembered fondly for years to come if nothing else.
Travis Outlaw Is Magic
http://magictrout.blogspot.com
"Roy is more likely than zach randolph to be remembered fondly"?
That’s like saying the Pope is more Catholic than an Islamic ayatollah.
The Greatness of Brandon Roy
His nickname is The Natural. And rightfully so; have you seen a smoother, more composed player in the NBA today? What makes Brandon incredible and why I think he will eventually be the most beloved Blazer in history is because he embodies everything we want our team to be about: Great character, team attitude, and a desire to win that comes in a composed, disciplined package.
He is from the Northwest, which makes him more than a star, it makes him a hometown hero. He attended Garfield High School in Seattle, attended the University of Washington, stayed all 4 years in college (not to be underestimated), and now plays for the Blazers, the only franchise remaining here in the Pacific Northwest. He’s from here, he’s not a big city kid that will look to bounce to big markets like New York, L.A., Chicago, or Miami. Here is home for him, can you name another star player that is totally content to stay here in Portland even with the lure of other opportunities (read; bigger markets and lots more money)
All of this is why Brandon was the perfect player to hoist our team from the JailBlazers days (i shed a tear for Bonzi and Qyntel). From his locker room emasculation of Zach Randolph that officially changed the dynamic on this team permanently, to the way he carries himself on the court every game, he is the Portland TrailBlazers, our all-star, and the shining beacon that represents our ascension from those dismal days of Isiah Rider to the impeccable roster and incredible playoff contender we enjoy today. Roy was the first…the first Pritch-slap in the draft, the first Rookie of The Year, the first All-Star of this new era. And all he has done to live up to it is to be even more than we can expect from out best player.
Now obviously the title of Best Blazer Ever somewhat depends on if Brandon stays with the Trail Blazers and can stay healthy, as Clyde had over a decade of solid performances. But based on the numbers he’s putting up in the last couple years and the fact that our young, talented team will only continue to improve around him, odds are he will continue to put up great numbers and will definitely be in the conversation, at least statistically.
But the main determinant of BRoy’s greatness will be championships. Bill Walton is still considered one of the greatest Blazers ever, because while he was healthy he led us to our only title. Clyde was our greatest player to date, but he was never able to get past the insurmountable hump that was the NBA Finals. So even as great he was and as amazing as the #‘s were for him, he still doesn’t have that “sealer” accolade. If Brandon is able to lead this group to at least 1 NBA title, I think he immediately becomes the frontrunner for BBE. Naturally.
by rip_city_swagger on Aug 5, 2009 12:25 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Roy was the first…the first Pritch-slap in the draft
I don’t know…getting the Bulls to switch draft picks for Victor Kryapa was pretty slap-happy in retrospect, and this trade probably edged out the Roy deals by minutes
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
RoyBot
but that’s just a BE name.
I’m not a fan of the natural either. I hate baseball.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
hmmm
if so it’s been a year or two. They come up once and a while, and I don’t remember when the last was.
I still like “the espresso” for sergio.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
i'm of the mindset
that the players will earn the nicknames and eventually it’ll just naturally fall in place.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
huh? lol. nba players get nicknames by fans yelling them out to journalists or via shaq.
some thoughtfull mind has to invent it first, and that mind would be inspired by what they see on the court.
RT: brandon nickname thread on here?
you mean you don’t remember…the “yellow mamba” conversation?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
oh god
I blocked that one from my memory.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
To be the most prolific Portland Trail Blazer in history, Brandon Roy will need to combine the ...
greatness of Clyde Drexler with the championship glory of Bill Walton. It’s as simple as that, really.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
by AK1984 on Aug 5, 2009 12:34 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
very true
I believe if brandon roy can consistently perform at the rate he does, and win us a championship, (or two, or 5) he will become the best player to ever wear a blazer uniform. To me he is the savior of the franchise, after thos jail blazer years, and has brought us blazer fans something we haven’t seen since the early 90’s and and again during that season where we almost beat that one team in that one series in the early 2000’s. Those days still haunt me but brandon roy is the man to change that.
by NEPBlazer4life on Aug 5, 2009 12:50 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Amen!
He’s already become the face and voice of the Blazers. He’s given us games and moments that will be part of Blazer history forever, and he has the potential to be one of the elite guards in the league.
To me Bill Walton is the best because, while we’ve seen many talented players, he was the guy who lead the team all the way. Brandon Roy can be as good as the heroes of Blazer Lore but even Clyde Drexler couldn’t bring home a ring. If Roy gives us a parade I’ll be the first one to put his name on the “best ever” ballot.
To win a championship, you've gotta have help
Michael Jordan had Scotty Pippen. Bill Walton’s right-hand man was Maurice Lucas. Bill would be the first to say he couldn’t have done it without Luke (he even named his son after Lucas). Did Clyde have that guy? Certainly Williams, Porter, and Kersey were very good, but I dunno.
More importantly, does Roy have that guy, that right-hand man? In the end, his legacy may depend on whether LMA and/or GO ascend to the next level. Then again, it could turn out to be young Nic Batum—who so resembles a young Scotty Pippen—that makes a champion out of Brandon Roy’s Blazers.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Exactly
If he wins, any stats Clyde trumps him in won’t matter (and right now, Clyde’s averages clearly trump Roy’s).
To be the greatest, he just has to win it all. More than once would be nice.
Mortimer
That isn't necessarily true
If Roy has career averages of, say, 19-5-4 (about as low as you can realistically expect, but still) and wins one ring in one Finals appearance, I still would have to say Clyde’s 20-6-6 career averages with two Finals appearances would make him better overall.
Clyde's career numbers
Have the low rookie year numbers and the final 3-4 years of oldness to lower his overall stats. I doubt Roy ever approaches Clyde’s scoring highs, his steals highs, his assist highs, his rebounding… but like Two Deep and others mentioned, Roy is the better closer and clutch player. And leader.
If Roy never wins it all like Clyde didn’t (as a Blazer), then Clyde will be viewed with more esteem than Roy. If Roy wins it all and his numbers aren’t incredibly lower than Clyde’s, I think fan sentiment will place him higher since winning it all means everything.
If Roy doesn’t get hurt immediately before or after and is the prominent leader and star for a championship ballclub, any great/amazing/spectacular highlights and stats from Clyde’s years will likely be overlooked.
In my opinion.
Mortimer
I believe BRoy is the 2nd coming
…of ALL the Blazer greats, rolled into one uber-talented player.
Which really isn’t that fair to the other teams, if you think about it. Combine Petrie, Walton, Lucas, Gross, Twardzik, Hollins, Bates, Drexler, Kersey, Porter, Williams, Sabonis, B.Grant, and Sheed all into one?
K*be Who?
Blazers win!
by The X-man on Aug 5, 2009 12:47 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
That would be one WEIRD looking dude
Walton’s beard, Grant’s hair with Sheed’s bald spot that shine’s like Drexler’s dome, etc.
I'm old school, gotta go with Walton
Clyde was certainly more durable, and was hands down the best finisher in the open court I’ve ever seen, but Walton had that quality of special leadership that very few have-whatever needed to be done to win, he could do it. I was 10 during the championship season and the magical 50-10, so I’m not sure I’m capable of judging other players against Walton rationally. ;)
I wasn't even alive when we won the title and I have to go with Bill
I can’t count the number of times I’ve run into someone older, not even from Portland or necessarily a basketball fan, that when I tell them I root for the Blazers goes off on a tangent about how incredible that team was, and Bill made that entire team click. I’ve seen some old game tape from those years, and he’s on another level. I think it’s entirely possible that no athlete in history has lost a more promising career due to injury than Walton (excluding the true tragedies like Len Bias and Drazen). If he had working feet, he would be arguably right in that Kareem/Russell/Wilt discussion.
Sure, Brandon could surpass that, but he’s got a long way to go to get to the Clyde/Walton level. Looking forward to watching him get there, though.
I agree if Bill had been healthy he would have been right there with
Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. As Clyde said (about 25 times in the funniest interview ever) – No doubt about it.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 5, 2009 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions
It's always funny to me about how great that team was
Because they were very mediocre during the regular season, record wise. Two seasons ago when the Nuggets needed 50 wins for the 8th seed, our championship Blazers team wouldn’t have even made the playoffs!
Of course, there were less teams then, more competition, etc. And I wasn’t alive to see them play to know their greatness.
Overall, I am sick of hearing about the ‘77 team. I want my own championship squad. I’m glad the front office doesn’t try to squeeze ticket money out of fans right now by celebrating the bi-weekly anniversary of the championship season. I am sick of it!
Sick, jealous, same thing. But mostly sick.
Morty
Injuries to Walton and Gross made regular-season wins hard to come by in 1977.
They got healthy at the right time, a few weeks before the playoffs began. The modest 45-win season helped us, I think, because the media and other teams figured us for an easy out.
You’ll look more fondly on the 1977 season when the current squad has a couple of championships.
it was 49 wins in 76-77
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
does anyone else..
Think that the blazers october and november schedule seems really easy other than a few of the top tier opponents? I wouldnt be suprised if the blazers went into december with a 15-4 record..(i know, very optimistic)
by NEPBlazer4life on Aug 5, 2009 12:57 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Remembering the easy games
I hope that the Blazers remember their short comings against the easier teams. For all I love about the team, they did not fare well against the teams that they were supposed to win against. Sure, they won most, but I can remember the fear of the fourth qtr. come backs.
I hope you are right.
Hg
by BBK on Aug 5, 2009 5:11 AM PDT up reply actions
The one thing this team hasn't figured out
is how to completely deflate teams by blowing them out. Sure we had a couple of blowouts last season, but we regularly play to the other teams level. The margin of victory or loss was always pretty narrow. I hope this year we get over that. We really got to stop playing from behind and get better 1st quarter starts.
"Do me a favor. Put your lip over your head... and swallow." Max Goldman
Actually at the end of the season
we had a whole string of blowouts. A lot of that has been forgotten given how we fared in the playoffs, but for the last two weeks of the regular season there was no team better than the Blazers.
Yeh.....I remember people saying
the Blazers were near the league leaders in Blowouts by the end of the season…..but I can’t find a link to confirm this
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
we did but we played 9/10ths of the regular season down to our opponents level
"Do me a favor. Put your lip over your head... and swallow." Max Goldman
I agree;
Those games were against mostly quality teams, We blew by more quality teams than seller dweller teams.
Back to the point. clinchmobb was making, we play down to our opponents and get behind. Nate said all year long to play the game not the win loss record. Therefore I don’t think October or November is any easier then the rest of the season.
hg
Championships & Blazer for Life
should do it, He will never be as spectacular a player as Clyde, If not for MJ, Clyde would have been the NBA’s most dynamic player during his prime years, and night after night I came home from games just shaking my head about some play that Clyde had made that turned the game around or sealed a victory. It might be a dunk, a blocked shot, or even a steal. Often I would think I had seen something physically impossible that he had done. He got us close to a championship three times, brought recognition and respect to team, and represented the community with class as a total gentleman. Being named one of 50 greatest of all time, as was Walton, honored the team as well, and will be a hard act to follow,
But Clyde and Walton both left the Blazers before their careers ended (Clyde asked to be traded and Walton left in somewhat justified anger). As much as I was happy that Clyde finally got his ring, it also disappointed me that he didn’t finish his career here, and that he eventually identified himself as much as a Rocket as he did a Blazer. So the window is wide open for Brandon to become my favorite Blazer.
For me he needs to win a championship and stay a Blazer for life to replace Clyde and Walton as my favorite Blazers. I don’t think he will ever be quite as fun to watch as those two because i don’t think he will ever dominate games the way they could. I don’t think he is likely to make the next 75 Greatest Players team (although with 3-4 championships he could). But if he wins a championship or two (which may have as much or more to do with Greg Oden as Roy) and stays with the Blazers he will become my favorite Blazer of all time for his achievements, his loyalty, and the role he played in turning around the character of team when that was so badly needed,
Of course, if GO should regain his physical abilities, develop his basketball skills, become the NBA’s dominant center of the next decade, and lead us to 3-4 championships, Roy could have some competition.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 5, 2009 1:11 AM PDT reply actions
Different type of greatness.
I don’t think Greg has the passing skills and mid range jump shooting skills of Bill Walton. But he could give Luke competition for the enforcer.
hg
by BBK on Aug 5, 2009 5:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Trailblazers Mt. Rushmore
Staying IS critical, but still means little without winning a championship (which Drexler outsourced to Houston). Health, title, and tight identity with the community, by staying in Portland, will be key to making him the iconic Blazer.
Other things to consider. Who are they competing against? Walton was overshadowed by Kareem, Drexler by Jordan. Roy is up against Kobe, LeBron, D-Wade, CP3, and a host of other MVP candidates.
About dominating games; The SI piece that came out earlier this year had mentioned his vertical leap being something like 42", but that he only uses it when he needs to. What distinguishes Roy from our two other heroes is that he is NOT flamboyant or egocentric. He want to win and he knows that it takes a team to do it. Bill Walton brought distractions to the team by being an “individual”. Drexler has admitted regret that at times he didn’t work as hard as he could have. Brandon Roy’s character and attitude has him out front on my Trailblazers Mt. Rushmore…
Who joins him?
by boiseblazer22 on Aug 5, 2009 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Walton's long hair, beard, and lifestyle were no distraction to the team at all.
The media talking heads went-on about it, but that’s to be expected.
Prove it
How can you stand behind that statement?
The point that I am making is that both Drexler and Walton focused more on “me” over the team, respectively, than does Mr. Roy.
by boiseblazer22 on Aug 5, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Walton was every bit the team player Roy is.
I don’t just stand behind that statement, I jump on top of it, fire it up, and rampage all over your puny argument. MiledAnimal FTW!
oh man, there's a great article in the SI.com vault
about Walton’s teammates all throwing basketballs at him (think dodgeball) and calling him “Dollar Bill” back in the ’75 season
BW was an extremely controversial figure in Portland sport’s history, and he had some “live-in” friends (the Scotts, etc) who had counter-culture connections
but, as John Madden likes to say, “winning is the best deoderant”
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
new question
who is the best Blazer player who played his entire career in red/black?
this should be a short list…
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I'll start the bidding with
Lloyd Neal
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Larry Steele fans
would also make a strong argument for their guy
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
that's a good one
I think Sabas is the leader in the clubhouse
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
buzz!
no, the Rockets use red, white and gold (at least, they did back in the day…)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
The shoes Jorga bought before the playoffs
Because they looked like Blazer shoes but had a Rockets logo on the bottom, had black in them, so I have to say this means I am 100% correct.
M—
Really? I think he could.
If Brandon stays healthy and wins just one ring I think he’d make the list of the next 25 greatest player. I mean are there really that many people infront of him? The late 90’s and early 00’s are full of burnouts. Look at the all-star teams ect. And he’s is getting these all-star votes and all-NBA votes along with the the brightest new stars. He’s in a good position.
by SamGoody on Aug 5, 2009 9:18 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If Roy scores the most on a championship Portland team, they'll only retire his jersey...
…and if he scores the most on two championship Portland teams, he will be remembered as the greatest Blazer ever. And yes, this results regardless of whether he puts up a triple-double every game.
Consider the latest Laker championship team. I know it’s unpleasant, but bear with me. Fifty years from now, will people remember that Pau Gasol was statistically the Lakers’ most valuable player? No. They’ll remember the Lakers’ shooting guard. That guy.
It was different with the Blazers in 1977. Walton was indeed the most efficient player on the court, with Lucas a close second. In particular, Walton’s rebounding numbers were extraordinary. His blocks were the mustard. And he kept his scoring high enough to hold the fans’ attention. Unfortunately for Lucas, Walton had another advantage in the fans’ eyes — he was white. For all these reasons Walton gets remembered as one of the greats.
At the risk of indelicacy, may I suggest that Drexler gets remembered primarily because of his scoring efficiency? He got most of these points by driving to the basket and dunking, another way to get remembered as the “greatest”. He used to brag about his field goal percentage to Michael Jordan. So Jordan teased him, “Don’t fear the jumper, Clyde. Pull up every now and then.” Then again, Drexler might be the perfect all-time great for a oft-insecure fan base. He came to a USA Basketball practice with two left sneakers. He was too embarrassed to fetch the right shoe from the hotel, and so he played in two lefties.
Anyway, if Roy wants to be remembered as one of the greats, he has to win a championship. I don’t know whether this town has another Drexler-sized pass in it; people expect a championship after this damn long, and after all the hype. And if Roy wants to be remembered as The Greatest, he should average the highest PPG in that championship season, preferably about 25ppg.
-1 for throwing-in the race card about Walton and Lucas.
Were you even around in 1977? The fans loved Mo. Why must you compare Walton and Lucas in that light? Your statement is not just needlessly incendiary, it’s blatantly wrong. Portlanders loved both players, but race is not why Walton was more highly regarded.
- We drafted Walton. We acquired Lucas in the ABA dispersal draft.
- Walton was the overwhelming #1 pick in his draft class and a superstar talent, on par with Kareem and the other great centers in NBA history. Lucas was a star but not a superstar.
- Walton was a wannabe hippie who loved biking, frisbee, pot, and Oregon, the perfect counter-culture icon for young Oregonians like me back then. Lucas was the strong, silent enforcer and lived a far more conventional and private life, hardly the kind of player who gives most fans the warm fuzzies.
Good points, but I still disagree
I wasn’t around in 1977, but my parents were, and I know the fans loved Lucas. My dad has all sorts of stories about the crowd chanting his name. It’s just puzzling to me why Lucas is never mentioned in the debate over the greatest Blazer. He tops Walton for me. And my comment on race certainly isn’t meant to be incendiary. Not my style. I certainly don’t think it’s wrong. It’s based on Halberstam’s reporting. In The Breaks of the Game, Lucas complains again and again that Walton got more love and money because of the color of his skin. I wouldn’t have said such a thing if I couldn’t cite my sources. Of course, you can disagree with Lucas (though I certainly wouldn’t!). I think your third bullet point supports my view. Walton seems like the ultimate Blazer for many Oregonians because, well, he basically resembles us. That goes for his hobbies — and his skin color.
All that being said, your first bullet point is an excellent argument. I’d say that ABA dispersal doesn’t necessarily mean a guy won’t be a NBA hero — Artis Gilmore and Moses Malone come to mind. Your second bullet is also excellent. Then again, I’d argue Abdul-Jabbar was a little better :)
I haven't read Halberstam's book
so I wasn’t aware that Lucas felt that way. That doesn’t mean he was correct, but I’ll step back from my stance and acknowledge that, sure, it is easier to identify with someone who looks more like your homies, which in Portland means lily white. But if Mo thought the only difference between him and Walton was the color of their skin, he was wrong.
In "Breaks"
the entire racism theme was present throughout the book as Halberstam wrote a ton about how teams often made roster decisions based on the color of a player’s skin in order to market themselves better to the white fan base. From what I remember in the book, though, Luke’s case wasn’t so much about race as about Weinberg being fundamentally opposed to negotiating contracts. Luke had outplayed his original contract salary and wanted a raise, but Weinberg refused to negotiate with someone under contract, and Luke took that as a sign of racism.
Certainly, there could have been a racial component, but Halberstam summed it up best in the following passage:
He liked the clash of will. He was at once an intensely proud black man, justifiably angry about the injustice around him, and a superb and subtle con artist, a man who had in effect invented himself and his persona — Luke the Intimidator. When he was making demands, when he talked about race being an issue at point, it was sometimes hard to tell which Maurice Lucas was talking — the Lucas who genuinely believed he was a victim of such obvious American racism, or the Lucas who knew that his cause was more dramatic if he deliberately cloaked it in himself. Indeed, it was not possible at certain times to tell if he himself knew. (He was capable of complaining that Portland would never pay a black superstar what it would pay a white superstar, which was possibly correct, and, in the next breath, of complaining about the fact that Mychal Thompson, a rookie, who was also, it happened, black, had made twice as much in his rookie year as Luke made, then in his third year in Portland.)
I don’t mean this as an attack on Luke, I’ve loved everything he’s done for the team on and off the court, but it’s a whole lot more complex than just Luke being black in a white city.
Thanks, Royster
That’s an excellent passage. I was going on memory, but that quote shows that Lucas is a complex individual indeed.
What happened to the real world?
First let me note that I was playing collage basketball myself in 77 and had witnessed the college career of Bill Walton under John Wooden (recently voted the greatest coach ever) as well as Maurice Lukas’ career at Marquette.
Bill Walton was often said to be the best college center ever! His main competitor for that honor at that time was Kareem, who was then widely considered to be the best professional center ever. Watching Bill Walton was like watching the game being reinvented.
It was like watching a clinic with revolutionary moves for a center being put on display in a manner that made them look natural. Combining his raw talent and IQ with coach Wooden’s coaching greatness was downright unfair. Many coaches used Wooden’s name in ever other sentence, and millions of young men like myself were out practicing things like the turnaround bank shot along with stop and pop jump hooks.
Marquette was also a good program. They made the championship game in Luke’s final year, but the fact of the matter was that Luke was actually a role player on that team. I believe he was picked 14th in the NBA draft. It is not unfair to say that his professional success was a surprise to many.
During their time with the Blazers, I was a big fan of both of them, but for very different reasons. Luke was the Enforcer, and that role was probably a role that helped the team more than his individual basketball skills. Yes, he was good, I would say his skills compare very well with what LA has done to this point. He was not like LA in the toughness department though, he was Bill Walton’s protection on the basketball court. Mess with Bill, and you were going to have to deal with Luke! This was his claim to greatness. He could fight, and he was willing to do it. I loved the fact that big Mo was on our team!
This is not meant as an insult to Luke at all. He is the greatest enforcer that I have ever seen on the basketball court. He was also a very good basketball player as evidenced by the comparison to LA. But the truth is that he was not a premier player in and of himself; he was truly one of the all time great role players. I love ya LUKE!
With that being said, whoever would bring race into a discussion (including Luke) about who was better does not really understand how great Bill Walton was. He was not only a great talent and a great athlete, with a great desire to win, he was probably the smartest player basketball wise to ever play the game! To give you a very reasonable comparison, Tim Duncan is a mere shadow of what Bill was, although you can see from Tim’s game that there just may have been some copying going on. Larry Bird was an assassin, but despite his passing skills, he was not the great team player that Walton was when he was operating out of Jack Ramsey’s wheel. Walton’s team concept was way ahead of Larry’s.
I could go on, but the truth of the matter is that you are comparing players who were at totally different levels. To use a couple of today’s players as a comparison, don’t you just know, because it is obvious, that Chris Paul is better than Steve Blake. I know they play a different position than what Mo and Bill did, but the difference is just about as great. Really, a silly comparison.
To attempt to answer the question,
It is either 1-Lead the team to 2+ championships. 2 titles would be a new high water mark. PPG does not matter too much as long as he is among the leaders. The perception must be that he is leading the team.
OR 2-Be awesome, win one title, stay a good long while, then leave amicably, like Walton didnt.
Winning one and leaving in a snit has been done. Being great for years with empty fingers too. As Milhouse Van Houten once said: “That job is taken”. To be the greatest Trailblazer ever BRoy needs to, um, idunno, forge a new path?
I think about this frequently
I have never seen Walton play, I have seen Drexler play in bits and pieces but I have read books detailing their play as well as numerous articles. I think if we’re talking about at their very peak, there is no doubt Walton is the greatest Blazer of all time. I’m just talking about individual peak, not even counting the team achievements. One of the greatest centers ever (when healthy). No question. Clyde is ahead of Walton if you take into account his longevity, consistency (not that he didn’t have moments of brilliance) and the fact he had his very best years as a Blazer. Personally (like a lot of people) I give the sentimental edge to Clyde because he was the face of the franchise and such a likeable guy. Walton is a good guy and it’s not like he’s not proud of the fact he’s was a Blazer but I never felt he was a Blazer-for-life kind of guy. Sadly Clyde couldn’t end his career in Portland but he’s still a BFL.
Now to Roy. I don’t think Roy playins to 100% of his potential he’s going to surpass Walton’s peak. So if that’s your def of “greatest” no he’s not going to be. I think he can surpass Clyde if he stays healthy (very healthy) and continues his career arc. He’s not going to beat Clyde stat wise but you do need to adjust for inflation (Clyde played in a more high scoring era I believe). As momentous as the first darling Blazers championship was a SECOND championship with Roy as the catalyst would be much much much more delightful delicious and meaningful. Why? Because as happy as Portland was when the Blazers won that first championship the NBA back then was not very popular, Portland embraced that team and that victory but to the rest of the world it mights as well have been a NCAA baseball title, which is not bad but not major. So if Roy were to bring a title to Portland, nay, the whole damn state of Oregon then he would be beloved and he would be bestowed title of greatest, regardless of Walton’s superior peak or Clyde’s more impressive numbers over a long period.
by neutroticblazerfan on Aug 5, 2009 1:45 AM PDT reply actions
Can't believe every thing you read
IMO and many others, Bill Walton was not a nice guy. IMO only again he was a rebellious rebel that created problems that only he could solve. Looking back that was not as bad as it looked then. The new generation of hippies in those days was not liked at all. His BBIQ and abilities was all-Star caliber.
Bill Walton was great, but if we had gotten Sabonis when we drafted him, he would have surpassed Bill and Clyde. He could pass as good as Bill, Shoot from the outside as good as Bill and he wasn’t the rebel as Bill was. But, he was a Russian, and in those days of the cold war that was 2 strikes against him. When Sabby did get to come over with his bad knees and going into the Jailblazer’s era, he was still pretty great.
I think BRoy has the love of the fans, not only because he is great but because of the era we just got out of, to be the fan’s greatest.
hg
by BBK on Aug 5, 2009 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Sabas is Lithuanian, not "Russian"
and there is a difference, especially to the Lithuanians
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Lithuania is the only country in the world
That the average person knows where Portland, OR is on a map, or has even heard of it.
They deserve our respect.
Mortimer
You are right.
I listen to the gossip of the cold war and thought it was the USSR that wouldn’t let him come over It had something to do with him playing so poorly in one of the international bb tournaments. I do not know that much about the political aspect of it all. Sorry for the mistake—-my bad
hg
actually, he could have come over
the Soviets gave their athletes permission to play overseas starting in 1989. Sabonis, age 25 at the time, could have came to the NBA for the 1989-90 season. Instead however he chose to play in the Spanish League for the next 6 years before finally starting his NBA career at the age of 31. Thus, the NBA title fortunes of up to 4 teams (1990 Pistons, 1991-93 Bulls, 1994-95 Rockets, and the 1990-95 Blazers) were all potentially affected by his decision to play in Spain rather than the U.S.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
The NBA is the third most-popular national sport in 2009, same as in 1977.
Statements like “As momentous as the first darling Blazers championship was a SECOND championship with Roy as the catalyst would be much much much more delightful delicious and meaningful” may be true for you, but it sure wouldn’t be true for me and a lot of other folks who were old enough to follow the team in 1977.
golf was bigger
at least it was to the CBS producer who switched the national feed to the Kemper Open as quickly as possible following the Blazer’s championship game
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I love Brandon Roy.
Who’s with me?
I miss Martell. Come back soon!
by mannyfresh1 on Aug 5, 2009 2:05 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Man-Crush
I am totally infatuated with the man and his game.
by boiseblazer22 on Aug 5, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm gonna be that guy
I think any analysis of a schedule pre-season is pointless. We don’t know who will be the surprise good teams and who will be the surprise bad teams. And on that note we don’t know where we fit into the 09-10 galaxy until we start playing.
by thrilliam on Aug 5, 2009 2:10 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Huh?
This makes no sense to me.
How can you not analyze a schedule based on team talent from last year? Of course chemistry and such changes a little bit. But it’s not like the Lakers are going to suddenly implode or the Bobcats are suddenly going to be a playoff team. Then you look at tangibles like back-backs, etc etc. Saying that it’s “pointless” to analyze the schedule pre-season, is pointless.
Regarding Hedo Türkoğlu:
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
He will be. When using various criteria he already top 3 and close to Drexler, and sometimes better.
As others have said, the only things that could keep him away are his health, and maybe that he entered the league only after his senior college year so his totals will be lower than those of some all-time greats. What is especially impressive is his versatility, adding something in about every category.
E.g. this one is impressive: 1 game out of all games in the last 20+ years with more than 50 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, and 0 turnovers. Result: Reggie Miller, Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, Brandon Roy, Michael Jordan again. Not bad, huh?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=2lwSG
Even when you take the turnovers to 5, that list is still fewer than 40 players (incl. a lot of MJ, some LeBron).
Blazers ever who had a season with more than For single seasons, from 1946-47 to 2008-09, playing for the Portland Trail Blazers, requiring Points >= 1500 (Roy had > 1700 last season) and Assists >= 300 (Roy 400) and Total Rebounds >= 300.
Result: Clyde Drexler 6x, Brandon Roy 2x, Sidney Wicks 3x, Mychal Thompson 1x, Tom Owens 1x
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/tiny.cgi?id=s2fo1
If you tighten the criteria a bit, 1 season of Roy, 2 seasons of Wicks, Thompson, Owens fall out. In fact Roy isn’t that far away from Drexler in assists and points, only Clyde was a significantly better rebounder. And it will be hard for Roy to catch up to that playing next to some very good rebounders, with a smaller size, and playing 2.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
and then...
you toss in pace.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Indeed. Cablinasian makes a good point when considering PER (pace and minute adjusted) and WS below.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
I will go out on a limb
Batum will be the greatest of all time. I am freaking amazed about the amount of talent he possesses. He has such an amazing upside, we have not even scratched the surface.
Huh? He is playing for France now.
I only fear if he truly becomes so good (hard to say how likely that is), he might not be with the Blazers anymore.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
Turkey vs France and Nic was not in the box. Now I see that this scoreboard (undated!) actually is reporting the last game in 2008 when Nic was not on the team.
It's a stretch
You are counting on a lot of potential materializing. I don’t see it happening unless he become way more assertive. He could become too expensive to keep, along with all of the other good parts that we have. How do you know that he will even have a substantial tenure as a Blazer?
by boiseblazer22 on Aug 5, 2009 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Batum doesn't have the handles
And as long as he plays alongside Roy, he will never be even the top player on his team. Even if he somehow becomes a comparable offensive force (seriously doubt Batum ever gets more than 16 ppg), he will never be the distributor or have the ability to run an offense like Roy.
Batum makes a terrific defensive player who hopefully won’t be an offensive liability as he matures.
a batum point forward
holy cow batman… i think i just wet my bed.
that would be a nice dream.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
I like thinking of Brandon as wheel
Let’s take this opportunity to talk about Brandon, which is something we don’t do much because he’s the least squeaky of all the wheels on the Blazer bus
That would be steering wheel
That would be navigating wheel
That would be big wheel
That would be wheel around an Oden pick and stuffs on K*by
That would be wheel of fortune for the Blazers
Come on you creative folks – add a few more???
If he signs that proposed max contract
Wheel of Fortune
Can I buy a vowel?? Ooooooooohhhhhh!!!
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
We doing predictions yet?
I have us down for 92 wins.
by Sabonis4Ever on Aug 5, 2009 3:39 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
That's not enough for a championship.
We gotta win 16 playoff games to win it all.
You’re saying we lose 6 games during the regular season?!?! Why do you even follow this team if you hate them so much?!
M—
98-0 has a nice ring!
And it would eclipse the perfect NCAA seasons of Knight and Wooden etc by more than double. Probably be on ESPN for the next century or until ESPN runs out of gas bags – nah that’s not going to happen.
does that count the preseason schedule?
inquiring minds want to know
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
The ultimate fear of injury.
Just looking at the stat sheet, it may take longer, but remembering Clyde as Clyde was, he relied solely on his athletics. Didn’t work at any thing specific to make himself better. Therefore, barring no injuries, BRoy will pass Clyde as the all time great for no other reason then hard work. I am not taking any thing away from Clyde. He was great and is one of my favorites. Bill Walton was a head case plain and simple, but if not for injury would have been ahead of Clyde in the all time greatest to wear a Blazer uniform.
hg
by BBK on Aug 5, 2009 5:00 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
He must stay healthy and lead the team to a championship
First off, let me just say that I had forgotten how amazing Clyde’s stats were. I remembered the scoring and the highs of the early years, but I forgot how well rounded he was. Look at him in ‘95-’96. In the twilight of his career his productive was still very impressive.
I think Brandon will surpass Clyde if he stays healthy and manages to win a championship, or at least come very close a couple of times. He won’t put up number as impressive as Clyde’s. Clyde won because Clyde was individually awesome. Brandon has innate ability to lift his team that Clyde lacked, despite the stats. Moreover, I think Brandon might be a better closer. Brandon is like Pujols in baseball. When you need a basket, you know he’ll manufacture it. Period. I didn’t have the same faith in Clyde. When the going got tough at the end against top caliber teams, Clyde would jack up crap just a little too often. Brandon’s patience and discipline are what set him apart on the court, and his IQ and leadership off it.
Clyde was much more multi-talented than Brandon is currently, and I suspect will ever be.
He would cruise effortlessly through games and then do something (often spectacular) when it really counted that only made a small statistical difference (e.g. one more rebound, blocked shot, or steal) but he did it at a key moment when it would turn a game. He found ways to win beyond simply going one-on-one and scoring, which of course Brandon does well. Clyde would come up with a huge steal near the end of the game, or go get a key offense rebound, make a great defense play, or hit a shot. His stats were great, but it was his flair for the spectacular, and the ability to make a big play at the right moment to change a game or seal a close victory that got him recognized as one of the 50 Greatest NBA Players. Nevertheless, Clyde was not able to get us a championship, although he came close three times. If Brandon can get a championship or two, and stay a Blazer throughout his career (something important to me), he’ll become my all-time greatest Blazer.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 5, 2009 7:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Brandon's only been in the league 3 years
and has had quite a few spectacular game saving or changing plays. Block on ‘Melo was potentially game saving (if he hit), Cheikh Samb dunk changed that game, several late game steals to close it out (Atlanta? comes to mind), I honestly can’t think of a ‘clutch’ rebound…not to mention all the ‘clutch’ shots or fouls drawn. Give him time and if he keeps his health, he’ll have a top 50 player highlight real!
"Do me a favor. Put your lip over your head... and swallow." Max Goldman
Seems like there was a "Cutch" rebound
in or around the Melo block
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I can picture it but don't remember it specifically!
"Do me a favor. Put your lip over your head... and swallow." Max Goldman
Yeh...me too
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Roy often grabs key rebounds late in games
That amazing vertical leap that he keeps under wraps? You see it regularly in crunch time.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Yep, he's been in the league for 3 years and never been out of the first round of the playoffs.
So let’s not get carried away. Give him time and then let’s see if he makes the next 75 Greatest Players list. I’m sure Clyde will still be on it, and I hope in 10 years so will Brandon. But it is way early to equate a half dozen or so great plays that Brandon has made with what Clyde did rather routinely in his prime years.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 5, 2009 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Clyde = top 50 because...
He was genuinly considered the second best at his position for most of his career. Roy from a shooting perspective is already better than Clyde and is considered in his third year to be in the top 5 of his position. Top three in my mind. If healthy he will continue to mature and become an even more efficent scorer
by SamGoody on Aug 5, 2009 12:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Any later era and Clyde would have been crowned the league's best
It was that MJ fellow that sucked all the air out at the time.
The thing about Roy is he more the leader than Clyde. Brandon is getting that more each year. The main thing for me is the rings. Bring home a couple or three rings and the conversation changes. Roy may never be as spectacular as Clyde but he is craftier and more efficient to me.
but Terry Porter was the clutch (offensive) performer on those teams
when Portland had to have a score in a close/late situation, more often than not it was TP who would drive the ball into the paint and give up his body to get to the FT line
or Clyde would drive and kick the ball to TP, for a 3 pointer
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Terry was clutch when we needed it, but it was usually something that Clyde did
that turned a close game around, or put us in a position to win. I don’t think Terry got too many votes for 50 Greatest.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 5, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I feel you're right DC Blazer.
When the going got tough at the end against top caliber teams, Clyde only had his spin move or the jacked up shot from deep that would too often clang off the front of the rim (that is why it was mostly Porter who got the ball at crunch time in big games—I know I certainly always wanted TP to have the ball in his hands then).
Definitely, Roy is a much better closer.
Walton remains my choice for the best Blazer ever, but Roy will soon overtake him.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
Clyde always had his head down while he dribbled
The remarkable thing was how effective he was playing like that. He was kinda like the sheepdog in the Warner Bros cartoons—the one who was always beating up on the Roadrunner despite his completely obscured vision.
In the open court, Clyde was unstoppable when he wanted to score. But in the halfcourt, he’d force things badly in crunch time. Clyde wasn’t in Roy’s league in those situations.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
I also remember his leg-kicky thing
when he glided or on his jumper
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Clyde was known to be sensitive about his jumper
one time after he hit a 20 footer to win a game, a reporter questioned Clyde’s accuracy from that range and Drexler got a little miffed (“what’s wrong with my jumper?”) Which was notable because it wasn’t one of the “canned” responses that the Glide was famous for…
but whever I saw Clyde take a “leapin’ leaner” (as Schonz used to call ‘em) and the ball would CLANK hard off the rim I would say "…that’s just the first pass to the other team’s fast break"
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
RT: the sheepdog ... who was always beating up on the Roadrunner
Why would a sheep dog beat up on the roadrunner? Step your game up!
It was Wile E. Coyote who chased (but never caught) the Roadrunner. (He had a mail-order account with ACME)
The sheep dog had a wolf who tried to get into his flock, but never succeeded. They would greet each other and punch the time clock before (and after) every “shift”
cartoons with 100% predictable (and violent) endings, somehow they never seem to grow old…
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Actually I think the "wolf" who the Sheepdog protected the sheep from
was Wile E Coyote (but he could talk)
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
Ralph and Sam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_and_Sheepdog
Ralph (named after a Warner Bros. employee) has virtually the same character design as another Chuck Jones character, Wile E. Coyote—brown fur, wiry body, and huge ears, but with a red nose in place of the Coyote’s black one; (usually) white eyes instead of Wile E.’s yellow; and, occasionally, a fang protruding from his mouth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAYkGZrFxa4
Enjoy
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
See I was right and you were wrong!!!
Ok, you were right and I was almost right
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
It is forgotten
Clyde also had a knee injury that slowed his game termendiously while still a Blazer. So all our great players was marred with potential injury.
hg
Nearly every great player was
Jordan broke his foot, Stockton and Magic had knee things, Bird had a 60-year-old’s back, etc.
Roy is clutch like Clyde was.....
But his “D” keeps him off the top shelf. And I don’t foresee that getting any better.
2-4 the who
Clyde wasn't exactly great on D either...
was he?
I ask because it’s been so long, i really don’t remember now. I know Walton was huge on D as well as the offense.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Clyde's D
Clyde was a big steals guy, especially in the first half of his career. But most of his steals were of the gambling variety, often leaving him out of position if he missed the swipe. While he had the skills (back in the hand check era) to lockdown when needed, he generally only did in key moments and/or late game situations and more often than not cruised on defense throughout most games.
He was also a good help defender, coming over to get steals and blocks shots fairly regularly.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
cool thanks
I noticed the steals but had a memory of him being the gambler. Good to know about the help defense because I didn’t remember that. It’s been a LONG time though.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
I hope not
Because if that is the case he will win as many titles as Drexler did for us. My hope and guess is that the Allfather Greg Oden will go down as the greatest Blazer ever.
Can anyone name a 7’ anywhere near as athletic as Greg that didn’t at least play in conference finals? We already saw a raw center in the finals this year and we will see ours in years to come.
Dikembe Mutombo
in his prime. Freak athlete. I don’t think he ever made it past the second round until he has just a backup center with the 76ers and Nets.
Mutombo played center for the Sixers when they played LA in the Finals in 2001
They traded Theo Ratliff to Atlanta for Mutombo that season.
A three-pointer is not a "triple." A triple is a hit in baseball.
A three-pointer is not a "trey." A trey is either an ESPN sportscaster or something that bad spellers eat cafeteria food on. - Dave on Mar 20, 2009 10:00 PM PDT
A trey is actually a playing card or die or domino having three pips. - pipgras on July 31, 2009 9:22 PM PDT
And he was the starter
A three-pointer is not a "triple." A triple is a hit in baseball.
A three-pointer is not a "trey." A trey is either an ESPN sportscaster or something that bad spellers eat cafeteria food on. - Dave on Mar 20, 2009 10:00 PM PDT
A trey is actually a playing card or die or domino having three pips. - pipgras on July 31, 2009 9:22 PM PDT
Clearly not the same player though
That he was with the Nuggets.
Mutombo's numbers:
5 years in Denver: 13 pts, 12.3 rebs, 3,8 blocks per game, 1 Defensive Player of the Year Award (94-95)
4 1/2 years in Atlanta: 11.6 pts, 12.7 rebs, 3.14 blocks per game, 2 Defensive Player of the Year Awards (96-97, 97-98)
1 1/2 years in Philly: 11.6 pts, 11.6 rebs, 2.45 blocks per game, 1 Defensive Player of the Year Award (00-01)
When he got traded to Philly, he was still a premier defensive player who was brought in to try to contain Shaq in the Finals (nice thought, but no), and his production hadn’t dipped very far since his Denver days. After his run in Philly he was 36, and his body started breaking down in the next year with New Jersey and the following year with the Knicks, and then he went to Houston to be Yao’s mentor for 5 years.
A three-pointer is not a "triple." A triple is a hit in baseball.
A three-pointer is not a "trey." A trey is either an ESPN sportscaster or something that bad spellers eat cafeteria food on. - Dave on Mar 20, 2009 10:00 PM PDT
A trey is actually a playing card or die or domino having three pips. - pipgras on July 31, 2009 9:22 PM PDT
eclecticspider: good to see your post.
I am hoping you are right. If he can develop that mid range to close jumper and maximize his hook sky is the limit. He is almost there on defense. Can’t wait.
hg
This torpedos my certainty that Roy was going to the Knicks
And I was worried so.
LETS WORRY ABOUT LMA NOW, WHY WONT THEY SIGN HIM??!?!?!?!
Blazer Fan
Also I am confused as to whether KP is the devil or a genius today, someone pls help
I get so confused
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Aug 5, 2009 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions
KP "caved into" Roy's agency demands
so he wouldn’t miss his August vacation
“you heard it here, first” — not John Canzano
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Can someone help explain something for me?
What does “close to a deal” mean for Roy? What possible discussion could take THIS long? Roy is asking for a max contract of 4 years plus a player option 5th. I assume Blazers management want him for 4 years, right? How does that discussion take weeks? I mean literally think about what they could be discussing by phone and in meetings. Because it’s not about money. We know Roy will get a max contract.
How is it possible that something so ridiculously simple as the final year of a contract takes weeks of negotiations? He’s our franchise player. Is our front office trying to convince him that he’s too big of a risk for a 5 year contract? I really don’t get it.
Regarding Hedo Türkoğlu:
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
I think their argument would be that
if he were to sacrifice some time and money on the contract it’d give them more flexibility to put a better team around him. Being the star of a better (i.e. championship) team would allow him to more than make up for the money in endorsements.
I think our front office is making prudent financial decisions with their money
Which by the way is their money. Their money.
I support them wholeheartedly
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Aug 5, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
you have to understand NBA contracts
its just not a matter of deciding how many years you want a guy and how much money to pay them.
These contracts have ridiculously complex structures and incentives built in, all of which must work with the other contracts on the team both now and in the future. THe amount of up-front money, guaranteed money, player option years, incentives for playoffs, all-star games, and NBA Finals and titles, all of that has to be worked in and work perfectly.
I laughed when everyone was panicking because talks were slow. Brandon is going to be here, there’s no way Paul Allen and KP let him go anywhere. The Blazers are being smart and are making sure they sign him to a contract that sets the table for other negotiations (LA, Oden, Batum, etc.) as well as sets us up well for the next few years in terms of cap space, flexibility, etc.
The difference between a 4 and 5 year deal might sound small, but realize that its actualy a much more complex deal
by rip_city_swagger on Aug 5, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What I see from Roy
From the moment I first watched him in his rookie year, I thought he would be a Paul Pierce type player. He isn’t as big as Pierce, but he’s got more range and he’s smoother. Beyond that, they play a very similar game. So very often you just watch the game, and suddenly you notice in the box score that Roy has 25-6-6 and you wonder how he got there because he very rarely takes the ball out of the flow of the offense.
Now, with Andre Miller on the team I bet Roy’s scoring dips a bit, down to around an even 20. I also bet his assists move up by about one, and he’ll be a much more efficient player because he’ll go 1-on-5 a lot less with Andre helping out. Of course, I thought the same thing about this last year with Rudy and Oden supposedly helping him out. With that in mind, Roy could go out and get 25 ppg.
As for his prospects of becoming the greatest Blazer ever, he has a looong way to go. A title is basically a must, and he’ll have to be a 22-6-6 type player for at least a dozen years here. I honestly don’t know if he ever does it. The title, sure, that is very possible. But I think the team is so deep and balanced he won’t garner the individual accolades to push him past Clyde. He will be good enough to bring himself into the discussion though.
I am not so sure
This is the kind of comments we heard when he was coming into the league. He has proven them wrong every step of the way so far. Rookie of the year, 2 all stars. That is a major in season accolade for every year he has been in the league. I have decided that I will not doubt The Natural. His scoring ave will go up this year I suspect….look for in the neighborhood of 25ppg …assists may go down if anything …..just a hunch
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
Also very possible
With Miller running the point Roy could just be a SG now, which would allow him to score more and facilitate less.
and remember what Iggy said
he scored more with less shots with Andre serving him dinner
Roy and his teammates should be Miller’s new beneficiaries
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I hope unlike PP, he can win without two HoF'ers alongside him
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Aug 5, 2009 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
To be fair
Pierce took a team with Antoine Walker as the #2 option to the ECF. Pierce had some stupid management, bad coaching, and bad egos around him for a lot of his career. Portland has a very solid management team, a good coach, and a talented team.
The thing is Roy is...
Amazingly effecient. Last year he shot over 50% for most of the year. It dipped to 48 but still amazing if Miller does his job then scoring opportunities will increase and so will Roy’s average
by SamGoody on Aug 5, 2009 1:07 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The thing is Roy is...
Amazingly effecient. Last year he shot over 50% for most of the year. It dipped to 48 but still amazing if Miller does his job then scoring opportunities will increase and so will Roy’s average
by SamGoody on Aug 5, 2009 1:08 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
2+ Campionships, and the title is his.
Anything else is gravy.
Portland Trail Blazers, Future World Champions 2010-2021.
Brandon Vs drexler first three years
Brandon Points: 955, 1416, 1765
Drexler Points: 628, 1377, 1389
Brandon Reb: 250, 348, 370
Drexler Reb: 235, 476, 421
Brandon Ast: 230, 430, 400
Drexler Ast: 153, 441, 600
Brandon TO: 116, 136, 153
Drexler TO: 123, 223, 282
B. Games Played: 57, 74, 78
D. Games Played: 82, 80, 75
B. Minutes Played: 2015, 2792, 2903
D. Minutes Played: 1408, 2555, 2576
Brandon wins in points, but also had more minutes. His turnovers are incredible. His three pointers blow drexler away. His FG is about the same (pretty good considering there’s a decent amount of threes in there while Drexler took few threes and missed the few he took. Drexler surprised me with his assists and rebounding showing that he definitely had more game than just scoring.
Roy also leads with FT’s with a blip in his second season.
Something I’d consider here is also pace of game. This would allow for greater rebounding and assists as well as scoring. If I remember correctly Drexler played at a much higher pace.
Will Roy be the best player ever? Out of the past players we’ve had, i think so. It’s tough to call because Stat wise Clyde did produce in multiple areas. His steals were in the 100’s/200’s while Roy is constantly below 100. Pace can adjust for some, but I suspect not all.
Roy’s edge is his leadership. I remember watching the Blazers collapse in big games. I haven’t really seen the Blazers do that. They’ve had minor let downs, but I can contribute this to youth, and I see that improving. What’s remarkable to me is how young this team is and how error prone it should be, and how it really isn’t. I mark that up to coaching and Roy’s leadership as well as the other players willingness and desire to step up.
My thoughts are that if Roy can stay healthy, he’ll definitely be marked as one of the greatest players and possibly the greatest. I believe this because he’s on a team that has the potential to dominate for the next ten years. Winning makes people great and Roy is better positioned to win more than any other past player.
Oden and Aldridge are also potential players on the greatest ever list. I exclude them from my ponderings. In response to them, though, it’ll be a few more years until you really see these guys explode into their prime. Roy will continue being the center piece of the team even as those guys explode, and thus, even if those other guys have mind blowing stats, I think Roy will likely be first in most peoples minds for what he was able to do from the start.
Either way, I like our team and I hope it meets half my expectations for it’s potential. that’s still five some championship titles.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
by ratbastird on Aug 5, 2009 8:30 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
The Assist;
Many of clydes assist went to Jerome dunking on a fast break. He would have had many more if Jerome’s hands were big enough to palm the ball. Well Palming the ball was just what I read. but I can remember Jeromes dunks, like I can remember Gross’ base line dunks.
hg
another thing
when Drexler came on board in ‘84, Portland was already a playoff team. But they still couldn’t get out of round 1 until ’89, after the Buck Williams acquisition
Roy was drafted following the 2nd worst season in Blazer history (21-61) and led the team to the playoffs in 3 years. If Portland advances past the 1st round this spring, Brandon will have started with much less and gotten more/faster results from his squad than Clyde was able to do
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
That's right!!
More/Faster……or Mo’ fasta….if you prefer
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
Well...
Clyde led the team to the Finals and when he left they didn’t get out of the first round. That’s as big of a difference as taking a team from out of the playoffs to a first-round exit.
—Dave
When Clyde left
during Whitsitt’s introductory press conference he indicated that the ’89-92 championship “window” was closing and the team would be reorganized. The Drexler deal was just a part of this process, the declining “results” were inevitable
Clyde was a great player but like Walton he was a part of a successful team. If we were to reach down and remove other components (take away Luke or Lionel from Bill, take away Terry or Buck from the Glide, etc) they wouldn’t have had the same success.
I would call Walton the better “leader” than Drexler, but neither were great “practice” players (Walton due to foot soreness, Clyde due to indifference) If Roy stays healthy he should surpass them both as the “greatest Blazer ever”
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Who was that other guy we drafted with Roy that year?
When Roy and LMA get us to the finals, which I doubt happens without that other guy we drafted coming on like Buck Williams, Greg whats_his_name, then we can debate Roy vs. Clyde. But none of these guys gets us to finals alone – Walton needed Lucas and Hollins, Clyde needed Terry and Buck, and Roy will need LMA and Oden.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 5, 2009 8:34 PM PDT up reply actions
great players will turn teams around, fast
my favorite 2 examples are Larry Bird and David Robinson. Without looking up the stats, I remember that the Celtics won 20-something games the year before Bird (‘78?) and 60-something games during Larry’s rookie season. That’s superstar impact
And the Spurs saw a similar jump in their W-L record the year the Admiral finally left the Navy
My point was that Clyde came to an existing playoff team and it took them all 5 seasons to “gel” and get past round 1. That is a modest accomplishment, when compared to Roy being brought into a suck-hole of fan apathy and on-court “lack-of-performance” and completely transform the franchise’ direction in less than 3 years
There is no precedent for Branson in Blazer history. Not even Walton had the same immediate impact, but much of that was due to Bill’s injuries
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
semantics
Bill Walton is the best player to have ever played for the Blazers. However, due to the short length of his playing days here, coupled with injury, Clyde easily become the player to have the best career as a Blazer
I think it’s nearly impossible for Brandon, or anyone else, to pass Walton as the best player in franchise history – that guy was just way too dominant. But it’s not hard to envision Roy passing Clyde as having had the best Blazer career ever. In fact, fast forward 5 or 6 more years to the end of his almost-completed new deal. Now imagine he’s added 4 or 5 more all star games and a title or two to his Blazer resume. Doesn’t 6 or 7 all star games and a ring or two trump Clyde’s 8 all star games and two Final’s losses?
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
by douglast on Aug 5, 2009 9:21 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
touche
I shared a similar line of thinking.
Though it’s difficult to compare players from different systems, generations, and positions, I like how you put it.
How do you ultimately define the best? If 9 out of 10 times Roy (in his prime) is able to beat Walton (in his prime) 1 on 1, what does that mean? It’s a 2 versus a 5… it’s not clear that it means much.
But I like to be here. Oh, I like it a lot! Said the Cat in the Hat. To the fish in the pot.
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 5, 2009 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I was thinking while reading your post.
We might have to concede each of them the best in their era. I was here with all three and I feel just as great with Brandon, maybe greater because he is more humble, which really has nothing to do with his skills but maybe it does to his greatness, as I do Clyde and Bill. I am also bias because I was not fond of Bill as a person. That has nothing to do with his ability, just a difference in age.
hg
Here's one way to judge between Walton and Roy:
In the summer of 1977, for which players would the Blazers have traded Walton in a one-for-one deal (excluding position as a factor)?
I can’t remember all the players in the league at that time, but I’m thinking the list might have just one name on it: Kareem.
The same list for Brandon in 2009 could have ten or more names on it: CP3, Dwight, Dwyane, LeBron, Kobe (yechh, but still), D-Rose, KD, Bosh, Dirk, Yao (assuming he’s healthy), Granger, etc.
you lost me with Granger
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah
but he had me on the other points.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
i mean his point still stands though. i compare players to whome they had to beat at their position.
this is why i always put hakeem above shaq. hakeem had more competition at his position and dominated them. including shaq.
True
But I would also quibble with Durant as well….maybe he should do something before we trade Roy for him
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
and Bosh, Dirk, Yao, Rose
all great players, but I wouldn’t trade Roy for any of them:
Dirk-Age, Yao-health, Bosh and Rose aren’t any better than Roy, and may never be.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
not Hermione Granger
not Danny Granger
not anything in the Granger catalog
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
To shrill and dramatic
Probably disrupt the locker room with her “holier than thou” attitude.
hmmm
i might. she’s pretty cool in that geek girl way i like. She’d have to be okay with my gf though because she’s even cooler.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
girls do that.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
I would trade Roy for:
A) Lebron
B) Nobody else
C) All of the above
Not me
but that is just because Wings plus bigs traditionally win more rings (last 30 years or so) than point guards do. The CP3 fans will probably show up shortly to refute this but this is my opinion
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
Perhaps
but their hasn’t been evidence of it yet (or lately to be more precise)
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
And someone will come by and point out Sheed
was the best playa on that team (not me….but someone)
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
but it was a big-point combo. Heck, Duncan was the best Spur and they won a bunch of titles.
I think the point guard not winning titles deal is more due to a lack of good point guards than an inherent inability to win as one. Paul is the best point guard we’ve seen in 20 years.
optimism ftw
I suspect you might be right
but until it happens, I think I am not going to trade my current superstar wing for a superstar point
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
chris paul is WAY better then chauncey ever was despite what happened in playoffs.
i dont think chauncey was mvp caliber player in reg season. cp3 is a top5 player in this league canidate. he was 2nd in voting last year. 20+ 10+
do you guys see roy more in the chauncey level (i.e. leader of a team that can step it up as a closer) or in the top-5 player in the league… totall totally dominant (i.e. kobe, wae, dlebron)
Roy is gonna be a regular MVP candidate
for years to come …….he may not win one ….but he will be a candidate regularly
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
i wouldn't
I know Rudy can fill in, but I honestly like the mentality Roy brings more than a lot of other elements.
I know on paper i’m likely wrong, but I still don’t do it. Not all things on paper are as great in reality.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
cp3 to me has alot of the same leaersihp qualities that roy has.
good character guy. not saying i twould do it but cp3 is a killer.
While I think you make a good point...
I also think it is much more difficult to trade a great big than it is any other player.
Great bigs are so rare; they’re like the Holy Grail of the NBA.
But I like to be here. Oh, I like it a lot! Said the Cat in the Hat. To the fish in the pot.
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 5, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
which is funny
for a while people were trying to promote that point guards were the holy grail over bigs.
History doesn’t reflect that stance, but that doesn’t stop people from having opinions. So I’m what I’m saying is that i definitely agree with you.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
That's an excellent point
And during the year plus that Walton was healthy… you’re right. From the videos I’ve seen Walton is simply amazing and controlled the game in so many ways. He’s what I imagine Sabonis could have been if young and healthy.
I label Walton as number one because he won, as my number one. I label Drexler as two because he never brought the blazers a championship. Roy, with multiple championships, would jump up to number one for me because he brought home the rings. People remember the winners and I think there’s good merit to that. Drexler, for all his skill, never brought the blazers over the hump. Jordan did. Walton did. Roy hopefully will.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Walton and Clyde
Walton wasn’t here long but was elite (especially as a big man when the NBA was a big man game still) when healthy, resulting in the Championship.
Drexler was here for a long time and was great (somewhere between just shy of elite and elite… it’s tough for me to give him a straight up elite when he was always 2nd fiddle to MJ), leading the team to 2 Finals appearances, though never winning.
Despite not ever winning a Championship, Drexler is likely viewed as the G.T.B.O.A.T. (Greatest Trail Blazer of All Time)
For Roy to surpass him, I would say he needs to be here and stay mostly healthy (no major injuries) AT LEAST through his next contract, while also leading this team to the Finals and WCF a couple/few times.
I would venture to say that Roy is more versatile than Clyde was, has a better overall game than Clyde did, and has the game to have a long career (Roy doesn’t depend on his superior athleticism, but rather crafty decisions and killer moves… the same things that help the greats stay great for a long time). It’s only a matter of time.
But I like to be here. Oh, I like it a lot! Said the Cat in the Hat. To the fish in the pot.
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 5, 2009 9:27 AM PDT reply actions
I think Clyde was elite
Much like Wilt…it is not his fault that he played during the Jordan era
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
imagine MJ's will and work ethic
with Drexler’s skill. Do you think that the Blazers still wouldn’t have won against the pistons and Bulls then?
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
and the freaking lakers.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
great point
Drexler was an amazing talented guy – and a freak athlete. Much like LeBron is talked about today. But his entire college and NBA career he pretty much coasted on pure talent and athleticism. That alone made him an all time great. But imagine if he would have had the drive and work ethic to improve his game? Wow, now that would have been something.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
I probably misspoke in one sense
I guess what I am saying is if you want to make a case that Clyde isn’t elite …..you need a better argument than he was always “2nd fiddle” to MJ. Because if MJ is the GOAT, then everyone was 2nd fiddle to him …everyone who ever played
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
THAT
is an excellent point. Heck… that means we still don’t have elite players because NO ONE played at his level with his talent, his desire, and his will. I forget and then I see him play again and my jaw drops. The guys was freaking amazing.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
listen role players....
Getting easier wins equals less fourth quarter minutes for the ‘Natural’. Roy sitting out the last 5-6 minutes in each game will pro-long his already great career. If we continue to sneek out wins with a roy .08 buzzer beater, or a 1-4 set and attack the rim at the buzzer as he gets claubered night in and night out, he wont get the chance to claim himself as the greatest Blazer of all time because of the continuous beating his body takes. Marcus, Webster, Miller, Oden and heck, even Nate have to step it up to get their All-Star on the bench quicker! He already has had what, 2-3 knee surgeries, and a heal problem. With the amount of hits he takes at the rim, the next to go is his back at the age of 25.
Im on a rant, sorry. All-n-all, MORE BENCH TIME FOR ROY = A STATUE OF ROY OUTSIDE THE ROSE GARDEN
I watched the championship game,
and as much as I like Clyde’s game and being just an all round good guy, I have to say that Walton was the the best. It pains me to admit that because he was such a dork and there were no tears shed when he left.
i liked him because he was a dork
although the book i’m reading sheds a different shade of gray over him and his relationship with the blazer doctors as well as his superstar treatment that ended up possibly poisoning the rest of the team.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
until I grew up and learned more about #22
1- He never showed up to practice
2- If he did show up, he was always late and didnt try
3- He wore a ROCKETS jersey when he got inducted into the Hall of fame
4- He wore a ROCKETS jersey when he got inducted as one of the 50 greatest
5- I went to “Ducks” memorial last summer and all the guys showed up, even Porter(he just got hired on to coach the Suns, he was busy but stil found time), But Clyde took a time out at a scrimmage in God knows where to send a 2 minute clip to show his respect, not cool!
Clyde lost my respect for all those reasons. I looked up to him as a kid. But B-Roy is a guy that shows up to practice, works hard and LOVES being/playing in the rose city. Now Thats a stand up guy
by droyden on Aug 5, 2009 9:37 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
....and he would barely show up in time for games,
often with no time to warm up properly.
He would too often try to take over a game by himself and too often it hurt us.
I shed no tears when he was traded.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
As I became more basketball aware and learned these things
I became less a fan of Drexler.
Jordan’s potential without the desire to be as great. there really was no contest between the two because drexler wasn’t trying to be his best. Jordan was.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
I agree, but just to be Devil's advocate...
It wasn’t like Clyde was some lazy bum who never worked on his game or who didn’t care about being great or winning championships. You’re comparing him to someone who was fiendishly dedicated and competitive—as well as supremely talented. Plus: Jordan had some pretty good teammates.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
yup but...
that split second, that little tiny sliver… that’s the distance between winning and not.
I believe the blazers had the talent. They didn’t have that “killer instinct” or that drive to show up at 5am to start working out. Jordan did. Even if Drexler had JUST shown up on time and didn’t do more, I think that would have set a better example for the team and it would have been that much better for it. that little bit more from Drexler, that little bit of leadership and then demanding that others follow could have been the difference between rings and not for us.
Jordan WAS a freak. So was Drexler. Jordan played to his potential. Drexler didn’t recognize his. Honestly, that’s what’s a bit mind blowing. “what could have been?”
Ah well. Still loved the guy, but he definitely fell some in my eyes because I’ll always go “if only”.
I don’t expect to do that with Roy, baring injury.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Clearly this is a sign and trade so that Brandon can go to the Knicks
Also, why isn’t LMA signed I hate you KP why are you messing with my franchise>?>??!!!1
Blazer Fan
Brandon Roy
is a Jedi.
"It all depends on where his growth will come and we think his growth will come within us" -- Kevin Pritchard on Jerryd Bayless
does that mean
he has to watch his back when “the clones” are around?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Brandon Roy, the next Michael Jordan
Or perhaps even michaelangelo? Geez, i think some of the best homers in the league have quite the high estimation of Brandon Roy.
Clyde Drexler is a top 35 all time NBA player. Brandon Roy has been in the league for a couple of years. Let’s not get too excited here. He MAY be a great player or he may not, like sooooo many others with a lot of potential.
I currently live in Seattle and went to the UW around the same time as Roy, so i hope he does well more than anyone. But to already say that he is or is going to be better than Clyde the Glyde is ridiculous. Brandon Roy is a current top 10 NBA player —Clyde was probably top 10 for 10 years or more. Not to mention his ring. Roy hasn’t got out of the first round of the NBA playoffs yet.
His ring...
should have an asterisk or two.
Only won it after joining the defending Champions, who happened to have one of the greatest centers of all time
*Only won it when MJ was out
Other than those two small contributing factors, yeah, he won a ring.
But I like to be here. Oh, I like it a lot! Said the Cat in the Hat. To the fish in the pot.
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 5, 2009 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
hey
go check out the stats of the two players. There is definitely room for a strong argument that Roy is going to be greater than Drexler. Take pace into consideration when you look at those numbers. Also, ponder his work ethic compared to Drexler and his on court IQ.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Unless it was not just purely a joke
Of course you remember his days in Houston, right? When we got to watch him livin’ it up, championship style?
M—
Duh
Still, you made up for it with the line about the bathtub.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
that reminds me
I need to clean mine.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Rookie of the year,
twice an all star, closing out so many games with heroics, the best handles for a guy his size in the league, hardest player in the NBA to defend (according to Artest), and less important but still cool having the most spectacular dunk the the last NBA season. I think he’s done more more than just show potential.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
I forgot to add "....in only 3 years this has been accomplished" .
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
Sorry
But Lebron has better handles, and Kobe probably does too. I also bet the Artest was being polite, because there is no way Roy is harder to guard than those two aforementioned guys.
Here’s where Roy stands for me:
1. Lebron
2. Kobe
3. Howard
4. Wade
5. Paul
6. Roy
7. Melo
they directly asked Artest is he was just saying that at the time and he clearly replied NO, that Brandon was the hardest player he dguarded
by rip_city_swagger on Aug 5, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Again
Artest was being polite. Remember when Shaq said Kobe was his idol in 2004? I love Roy, but he isn’t the hardest player to guard in the NBA.
artest can guard anyone quick anymore including roy and kobe.
BUT he certainly can guard the closers on the lakers competition: pierce, melo, and lebron.
Lebron is a decent ballhandler
But I wouldn’t say he is a GOOD ballhandler, or as good as Kobe/Roy.
In the body of a guy the size of a PF, it is impressive though.
But I am only quibbling.
M—
That could be true
Along with the fact that he’s allowed to travel more than anyone else.
only slightly more than DWade!
"Do me a favor. Put your lip over your head... and swallow." Max Goldman
And it really bothers me
because it isn’t like those guys need that preferential treatment to be superstars.
No doubt!
and then they get fouled!
"Do me a favor. Put your lip over your head... and swallow." Max Goldman
quibbling
how many of those top six players will be listed as all time greats? At some point amazingly good is just amazingly good.
Roy chooses to not be flashy, but honestly I think he could grab that “fame” if he really wanted to. There’s a reason that coaches keep voting Roy in. The guy is mind blowing good in a very subtle way, at times.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Please redo
This time seperate into positions. I mean really you can’t go compareing a 6’9 guy with a 6’6 guy
by SamGoody on Aug 5, 2009 1:19 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Way disagree.
Lebron is tough because he’s a bull. Batum alluded to that just recently. He’s not a great ball handler. Making a point for Kobe has more merit. Still, the primary attribute Roy possesses is his absolute mastery at handling the ball, allowing him to change directions on a dime and to deceive all those collapsing on him. His ball handling isn’t mentioned or appreciated enough…..but it will be.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
i think kobe can handle the bal just as well as roy. lol.
we are talking about guys with very little flaws here. maybe lebron has more flaws. which is scary.
Whenever you guys say "handles" I immediately think of love-handles
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Aug 5, 2009 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
In that case the answer clearly is...
…Big Baby Davis.
Oliver Miller
handles hall of fame
"My avatar picture is of the favorite vehicle I ever owned" -Me
by 92wastheyear on Aug 5, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
I’ve read every comment and, stunningly, not one person has said the magic words: PACE-ADJUSTED stats.
The McMillan Blazers play at a snail’s pace in a generally slow era (when compared to the 80s). Clyde’s Blazer teams were always in the top 5 in pace factor, and this is in an era when basketball had more possessions.
Taking a look at the advanced stats (comparing their best seasons against each other), Clyde’s age-25 season is about equal to Brandon’s age-24 season. Brandon is the more efficient scorer, better passer, and turned it over less. Clyde was a better rebounder and defender.
Though I really dislike PER in many cases due to its flaws, it does do a good job of comparing players that played in different eras and thus different paces. 1988 Clyde PER = 24.1. 2009 Brandon PER = 24.0. Win Shares, which takes into account defense, gives the advantage to Clyde, 13.7 to 12.7.
Why is Clyde considered a much better player, again?
Link
optimism ftw
by Cablinasian on Aug 5, 2009 10:54 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
ratbastird did mention pace as a factor
But I like to be here. Oh, I like it a lot! Said the Cat in the Hat. To the fish in the pot.
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Aug 5, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Did you read my post?
because i think you missed it.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
i like to sneak things in there like that :)
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
oh, and thanks for the pace and PER information
I’m not a stats freak because I just don’t have the time so it’s cool to see the information that I’d love to see handed to me on a pretty platter.
Also, if I understand what you wrote there, you’re taking the BEST seasons of the two and comparing? I strongly suspect Roy has better days ahead, so that’s promising.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Clyde’s best season could be either 87-88 or 88-89… I chose 87-88 due to higher scoring efficiency and PER, though it was somewhat arbitrary. You are correct, though, in saying it’s a comparison of the best seasons of both.
I know Portland ranked fifth in pace in 1992, and around that general area throughout the Drexler years. The overall league played at a helter-sketler pace (excluding Fratello’s Cavs), so fifth was very fast basketball.
The conclusion I came to in looking at the numbers is that if Roy can improve his defense (even marginally) there is a strong argument that he’s the better player of the two. Of course, there is always the debate of Clyde gambling for steals vs. Brandon playing straight up defense, but Clyde was probably a better defender even with that caveat. His help defense was certainly better.
optimism ftw
cool
I think that’s awesome that the best year Clyde had over a ten year period is close to the best year Roy has already had over a three year period. That’s a little mind blowing to me, frankly. I expect Roy to be even a little bit better this next year.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
It is pretty amazing that Clyde peaked in years 5 and 6, playing at a level that Roy has arguably matched in his age-24 third season. If Roy, as we can reasonably expect, becomes a 40%+ 3pt shooter, more focused defender, and scores more efficiently due to Miller at the point, he can bump his PER up beyond Clyde’s career high.
optimism ftw
this is why its better to compare stars by how much they won... not by how their stats were.
establish who was the leaders on the teams and compare their closing abilities and how much their teams won as a result.
Oops--right you are
One could even question whether Clyde was a better defender. I’m sure he had a lot more steals, but he got ‘em by gambling a lot. Of course, given Clyde’s ability to finish in the open court, the gambles were probably justified.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
I still give Clyde the edge… I think both are similar in that they have lockdown abilities when focused in late game situations.
optimism ftw
He did have the athletiscm
so it’s fair to reason with just a little effort he could do better.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Time for a poll: You're building an NBA team today.
You can choose either Clyde in his prime or Brandon 2009 to be your best player. Who do you pick?
bill walton or a year or two was the best
but I think that if Roy contributes what he did last year or slightly more and wins a ring, he’ll be considered the greatest blazer ever, otherwise he needs to do significantly better than clyde to be the best blazer and not even have a ring. and rang makes you a legend
There's no way Bill Walton is the greatest Blazer ever..
Sorry, but Jack Ramsay is the reason we won a title in 77’, not Walton. People tend to forget that Jack was our new head coach that year. Walton was finally healthy and the stars aligned. I’m not calling 77’ a fluke, but it was unarguably a surprise to most of the basketball minds at that time. Then Walton left after what, 3-4 seasons? I think he was with us from 75-79, became a free agent and signed with the Cliipers.
Is your definition of the “greaters Blazer ever” really just winning a championship? Because to me it’s about loyalty to your franchise and an identity as a Portland Trailblazer. Something you would never hear Walton himself admit. Drexler was here for what, 11+ seasons and 2 NBA Finals? It’s not his fault a guy named Michael Jordan (you know, the greatest player ever?) happened to be in the league and in his prime at the time.
Saying Bill Walton is the greatest Blazer ever is like saying Kevin Garnett is one of the greatest Celtics ever.
Anyway, I submit that Drexler remains the greatest Trailblazer ever, not Walton.
Regarding Hedo Türkoğlu:
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
I would argue two points
1.) Walton was a huge influence on the game. Watch the video that’s out there. He’d tip rebounds, start the break, and pass and score like crazy at times. The guy was amazing. The coach the year before Walton was healthy predicted a championship if Walton could be healthy (Lenny Wilkins I believe) but he was let go and never got to coach a healthy Walton. He did predict it because Walton was that good.
Source: Breaks of the Game (book)
2.) Drexler was not the victim of Jordan. he was the victim of his own desire and work ethic. See points above in regards to his work ethic around practice. Jordan was always working out and striving for the next level. Drexler wasn’t. That’s not luck, that’s hard work. I do hold Drexler accountable, in my mind, for that failure of his.
In response to loyalty, I can agree with what you’re saying about Walton. I feel a little that way with Drexler and his Houston love as well. In terms of franchise identification, I think I’d agree that I’d go with Drexler. In terms of effect on the game while healthy I go with Walton.
Walton wasn’t a hired gun, he was a guy the blazers drafted. For me, that makes him different than KG. A championship also DOES color my opinion because at some point, it’s about who wants it more. Walton wanted it. Drexler didn’t. Or rather, Drexler didn’t want it bad enough to workout like Jordan did.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Yeah..
..and I’m sure us winning had nothing to do with the ABA dispersal draft in the off-season of 76. You know, the one where we picked up Lucas? You do realize prior to Ramsey arriving, Portland never had a winning season, let alone made the playoffs in our still young 6 year history. Ramsey is one of the winningest coaches of all time, right up there with Auerbach.
Oh, and then there’s this gem.
Remember the 78-79 season? You know, the one where Walton protested that Portland’s front office was incompetent and didn’t handle his injuries well? He demanded to be traded and refused to play an ENTIRE SEASON. He (sorta) pulled a Marbury. The moment he became a free agent in 79, he bolted for the Clippers and talked smack about his time in Portland for years after leaving.
Yep, that’s the greatest Blazer ever all right.
Regarding Hedo Türkoğlu:
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
Again
it depends on how you define it. On the personal level, yes, you have a point.
In regards to it being coaching more than Walton, you should watch the games. If Oden is half as good as Walton was, no team will touch us.
The book “red hot and rolling” has game footage from the run. No announcers, just raw footage. it was pretty cool to watch.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Nice history lesson
put Walton on an average Blazer team with a coach like PJ or Dunleavy and give his feet perfect health, does Bill lead them to another title? And if not, is he considered the “greatest Blazer ever”?
OTOH, Ramsay did call Bill the “greatest person he ever knew” after Portland won in ’77
Here’s hoping Roy take the Blazers all the way so we don’t have to keep on having this “Walton vs Drexler” debate for the next 30 years. Both Clyde and Bill were flawed players and/or people, but Brandon is a lot “easier” to root for, he’s kind of like a “Jack Armstrong, all-American boy” in sneakers and with scruffy facial hair
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
And don't forget how well we did in the playoffs the next year
after Walton broke his foot despite having almost the exact same roster. Clearly he was just a scrub hanger on and it was all Luke and Dr. Jack.
From my reading of The Breaks of the Game, Ramsey wanted the credit
He actually disliked having great players, because they, rather than Ramsey’s genius system, would get the credit. Typical egomaniac coach.
In actuality, the NBA is a players’ league, and even the best coaches only add an “X-factor.” Doc Rivers was a bust until he got Kevin Garnett & Ray Allen. Put Phil Jackson with the Grizzlies or Knicks and his mystique would evaporate overnight (as did Larry Brown’s during his own NY stint). I don’t recall Ramsey’s “system” looking too ingenius after Walton went down…
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
You mean the 55 and 10 year
then the losses?
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
er
that should have been a reply to royster.
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
I meant the 55 and 10 start followed by the Walton break
and getting bounced in the first round of the playoffs. If it was all Dr. Jack and Luke, we should have been able to at least win a series with Walton.
agreed
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Not a loyalty thing
Walton broke his foot the year after the championship, had surgery on advice
of team doctors but it didn’t heal right. Walton felt the injury wasn’t handled
correctly which led to a dispute with the team, eventually, and unfortunately,
ending with Bill going to San Diego (Clippers).
by hellsfrozenover on Aug 5, 2009 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I donno man..
I don’t think it was the Blazer’s fault that he was injury-prone. The guy did retire early after a huge string of injuries throughout his career. He retired in what, 87? He played in ONE all-star game due to injuries throughout his career. Basically I just don’t like Walton. I’m a Blazermaniac and maybe I’m the first huge Blazers fan that doesn’t care for Walton, but I don’t think of him as a “Blazers great”. I think he happened to be here at the right time. As I said, when the stars aligned with Ramsey and Lucas being “just the right fit”. Drexler is 10x the Blazer Walton was. We’re not talking player skill here. I’m talking about the man and his commitment to our team over a decade plus.
Regarding Hedo Türkoğlu:
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
high arches
Walton had the wrong kind of feet to support his weight and all the jumping that BB requires
if he hadn’t gotten hurt in April ’78 it was just a matter of time
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
but he had bone spurs and other issues
before ’76
Walton’s high arches were ticking time bombs, Blazer fans were lucky we got those 18 pain-free months, otherwise this franchise would be looking up at the Suns and the Jazz
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Fans Love to do this!
I suppose comparison is inevitable.
Who’s The Best Ever?
I don’t really like doing that though. I guess I’m a strange minority. IMO Walton is at the top just for dominating a season inwhich we won The Championship. He was the most, or one of the most dominating players in the world the year we won The Championship and for 3/4ths of the following season. That’s no small accomplishment considering you had players like Dr.J and Kareem around.
But “Better” or “Best”? Go back if you’ve forgotten and watch clips of Drexler in his prime. Awesome. I don’t think there is a player playing today that athletically matches Drexler in his prime, and I’ll include Kobe and Lebron in that arguement. But of course the knock is Drexler was never at The Helm of a Blazer Championship.
Brandon? Any discussion is premature. I love to watch Brandons game. I’ve said it before but he reminds me (Believe it or Not) of Larry Bird. At any given moment on the court it seldom seemed that Larry Bird was one of the most dominating athletes on the floor. But Bird knew where to be, what to do, and he made things happen. Brandon is similar, he hits the big shot, makes the big plays. Brandon is deceptively athletic, as it takes a great deal of strength to make the drives to the hoop Brandon makes, but he is athletic in a way not popular today. Brandon is seldom the Highlight reel acrobatic dunk player, even though those do appear occasionally.
Could Brandon become among one of the best? Certainly, a resume that already includes Rookie of The Year and 2 time All-Star deserves approaching consideration. But so far Brandon has only been instrumental in the emergence of a young team, not the establishment of a perenial winner. Long term health, and ultimately sustained success of the team will be the factors that determine Brandons place. He does have the skills and the will, of that I’m sure. Is he one of the best ever now? Not yet, but I’m going to enjoy his drive to become one of the best ever.
For me, The Blazer Mt. Rushmore is not complete, I’d put Walton, Drexler and Lucas (Yes Lucas, he was a ground breaking PF) plus I give lot’s of points for being a primary in a World Championship run. Leave a spot open, Sketch a few diagrams of Brandon, we will see over the next few years where Brandon deserves to be.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
Lucas was awesome
too bad he had such a huge chip on his shoulder (reasonably place there or not being besides the point).
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Good stuff
Right now, B-Roy averages less points, rebounds, assists, and steals than Clyde. He shoots a lower percentage. He’s a little better from 3 pt range. If he wins a championship that would go a long way towards him catching Clyde. He doesn’t have to play in the Jordan era though. Hey and Clyde did win one, just with Houston. Which brings me to my next point. If Oden becomes what we think he will become, then we’ll be able to say that B-Roy had a better center to play with than Clyde did. LaMarcus will probably be better than Buck also (well it will be close) It will be hard to get as good of a back court mate as Terry was for Clyde. Anyway I guess what I’m trying to say is that a lot goes into how a player looks. The rest of his team is a huge factor, and the rest of the NBA (level of competition) is also a factor. I think B-Roy has a long ways (7 – 9 more great years) to go.
by desperationshot on Aug 5, 2009 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
kind of off topic
but has anyone else noticed that when you type brandon roy into the yahoo search the fill thing fills in “Brandon Roy girlfriend”? Kind of weird. Anyway according to wikipedia (my most trusted source :) ) Brandon is set to be married this month. All I’m wondering is; where is my invite? Must have been lost in the mail…
PS Brandon Roy is very good. I have little doubt that by the time he hangs em up he’ll be my favorite and best blazer ever.
so his nickname should be
Double D?
"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.
But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html
Clyde averaged 8.0 assists one season
How happy would we be to see Brandon even average 7? And Clyde’s high-rebound number was 7.2. Clyde, it seems, was much more of a well-rounded player than he is remembered for. Much as Brandon is much more athletic than he’ll be remembered for.
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