BE + KP2 Podcast Episode 4

Because I’m bored.

The official naming of the podcast.

BEN: Welcome back to another episode, Episode 4 of the brand newly named "The Dontonio Wingcast" starring myself, Bed from BlazersEdge and Kevin "Super Cool" Pelton. We talked about how we were struggling to name the Podcast and we said that our favorite name was "The Dontonio Wingcast" named after former Blazer and Sonic Dontonio Wingfield. The problem that we had was he ran into some character concerns. I guess he has assaulted some police officers at some point, maybe served a little jail time. I’m not entirely sure on the details. But then in the interim you actually did some research and found out that he has rehabilitated his image, isn’t that right?

KP: Yeah, the most recent story seemed to indicate that he’s coaching some youth basketball teams and trying to help young prospects from his hometown in Georgia from following some of the same path that he did. Obviously the NBA part of it was good, but he had some struggles as he was growing up along the way, as befitting a Blazer in the Bob Whitsitt era. But he seems to have gotten things figured out right now. And Dontonio Wingcast is an awesome name.

BEN: It’s a great name. That was never the whole bag and it appeals to our nerdy NW basketball roots. And now that he’s rehabilitated, we’re about second chances here. I mean we’re gonna give Michael Beasley a 14th chance once he gets out of rehab and we’re obviously willing to give Dontonio Wingfield a few extra chances, so by naming our Podcast after him we’re standing fully in support of his youth basketball coaching movement and we also hope that maybe he’ll come on at some point and tell us about his experiences.

KP: As I mentioned earlier on G-Chat, I have a bunch of Sonics basketball cards on my desk here at work that were compiled by a former coworker of mine and now two of us in the Seattle Storm offices have split them up, and there are at least three or four Dontonio Wingfield Sonics cards on my desk. So that’s pretty sweet given the name of the Podcast I think.

Briefly reminiscing about collecting basketball cards.

Segment 1:

LaMarcus Aldridge: where does he stand, what’s next and is there a better, younger 4 in the NBA? The evolution of the Power Forward position: has any position changed more over the last decade than the 4?

BEN: We’re still waiting for this LaMarcus Aldridge extension to go down. It’s probably gonna happen in the next four weeks I guess. But it kind of raises the same question that got raised when Brandon got his extension, which is "What’s next for LaMarcus?" I wrote a little bit about it… and the overarching theme of the LaMarcus piece was he needs to get more assertive and there are a lot of different ways he can get more assertive and aggressive, and I think that’s a natural thing as he grows older. So when we were looking at the comparables for LaMarcus, and even though some people still say he has a ceiling that he can still reach that may even be higher than Brandon’s ceiling, when you look at his comparables you don’t necessarily see tall same-type players do you?

KP: No, he’s very young and that helps out his comparable players, because age is such a major factor in that. But his rebounding holds him back a little, so it’s the finesse guys that show up on that list. I think David West is high on there, Vin Baker with all the negative connotations that come with that – that aside, before he had all the trouble off the court, Vin Baker was a great All Star player, especially his first year in Seattle, and I think that’s kind of the mold that you see in the numbers is guys that relied on the mid-range jumpshot but can also score in the post and aren’t terrific rebounders. And Baker was an All Star, David West has been an All Star the last couple of years. So I guess that sets the template for where I see LaMarcus Aldridge.

BEN: And this was something I touched on briefly at the end of that post, but that second half of last season where the Blazers were running off all those big victories, I think LaMarcus had me sort of swearing profanity in amazement at what he was doing more often than any other player. Brandon’s the kind of player who takes your breath away because he’s so smooth and so natural and so gifted, but LaMarcus is the type of player who just makes you swear out loud, "Wow that was really something." And I think that’s promising for next season and what should hopefully be his first All Star season. One other statement from that post that people latched onto was that I said there wasn’t a younger, better power forward playing basketball right now than LaMarcus Aldridge. Would you agree with that?

KP: Well I think the way you phrased that was there’s not anybody who’s accomplished more and is younger is a good way to put it. Because there are guys who are younger and have more potential. I think Blake Griffin is someone who could come in and be a very good power forward from day one at the age of 21, but in terms of guys who have done more in the league and are younger than LaMarcus, you look at that list and I don’t think anyone has so far accomplished more. If you’re going to put them over him I think it’s mostly on the basis of potential, don’t you think?

BEN: The only other person I can see for a legitimate argument for being younger and better is Josh Smith, but Josh Smith has all these positives and ridiculous statistical nights. But you have some huge holes too: his outside game, sometimes his head’s not always in it, he misses fast break dunks during NBA games. He’s a phenomenal player, one of my favorite players, but he has all these things that make you think this guy’s never gonna win a title. He just has that red flag about it, and he’s the only person who’s in the discussion. The way Henry kind of changed the question when I was talking with him about this, he asked overall who’s the best young power forward? And I guess Chris Bosh is just leaps and bounds above everyone else. He’s only a year older than LaMarcus which is amazing to me. But besides Chris Bosh it’s LaMarcus, Josh Smith, and then a pretty big gap. Anthony Randolph gets brought up here. I think there’s a big difference between LaMarcus and Randolph at this point, especially in terms of what they’ve already produced. Maybe not in terms of potential but definitely but definitely numbers.

KP: A guy like Randolph is where Aldridge was a couple years ago, where you’ve seen the flashes and certainly he’s put up some good numbers in limited minutes. But he hasn’t shown what LaMarcus showed in the second half of last season that was the big difference that was the consistency night-in, night-out where you know you’re going to get that kind of production from him.

BEN: And Anthony Randolph you don’t know if he’s gonna be crying or have a towel over his head or what you’re gonna get from him. So Anthony Randolph aside, the other young guys. One of them the Blazers chased was Paul Milsap. And I think Aldridge has to be over Paul Milsap at this point. He has to be over Blake Griffin, one of the names that you mentioned. But I think that could change as early as the end of this season or maybe two years, just based on Griffin’s game. And Griffin’s interesting because do you see him as sort of a throwback power forward with some modern accoutrements that you might expect from someone more agile like LaMarcus or someone with more range, but at the same time he’s still a banger, he’s still real good around the rim, he has a great nose for the ball. He’s almost like a hybrid of the old style plus the modern face the basket forward.

KP: His game is definitely that throwback aspect. He’s got size, he’s got strength, he’s got explosiveness in his moves around the rim. When he worked out for the Clippers and they brought all the media in during the NBA finals, apparently it went well generally but it was just a disaster when he started shooting 15 to 20 foot jumpshots. He showed a lot of improvement in that regard in the summer league and I think eventually he can become a pretty good mid-range jumpshooter. To an extent he’s so good doing the other stuff that you almost don’t want him doing that. And that’s something you talked about with LaMarcus in that post, which is the pick-and-pop, 20 foot game is fine but we don’t need you shooting 3-pointers with this team.

When and why do 7 foot 4s fall in love with their jumpers? How does Blake Griffin fit in? A hybrid between throwback and modern 4s? What about Rashard Lewis? Paul Millsap? David Lee?

BEN: Yeah, and I don’t understand why these 7-footers fall in love with their jumpers. It’s one the weirdest developments in modern times with these big guys. And I think it actually gets entrenched probably in freshman year in high school with some of these guys before their growth spurts. They’re super talented, super athletic players, and they’re farther out from their basket so they have to start working on their 3-point shooting so they can get on the court, and they’re playing basically face the basket the entire time. Then they shoot up 6 inches and all of a sudden they have to do this back-to-the-basket game and that’s a lot of hard work. And they’ve got to rebound on both ends and that’s not much fun. So they think well Dirk can do it, if Dirk can stand outside and shoot 3-pointers and I’m still pretty coordinated, I can do it too.

It’s a really strange phenomenon, the young power forwards today. It’s like you have a large group these days, guys like LaMarcus, Randolph, who are way more confident facing the basket. And then you have another group – I don’t want to call them fat guys but they’re sort of fat guys – guys like Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, or even Josh Smith, a high school player up your way, who they almost get pushed to the 5 or they get pushed right underneath the basket, at least in the younger levels, and they’re basically there just to clean the boards and do nothing else. From where it was 15 years ago where you had power forwards that could do a little more offensively but still play tough defense, it seems like the power forward position has really stratosphied where either you’re a face-up guy or all you do is rebound and you’re just a hustle guy. And there’s no in-between. Maybe the future in-between is gonna be Blake Griffin, but other than him who’s in between on that spectrum?

KP: Well don’t you think LaMarcus is in between? I think that’s a challenge. It’s really hard to be good at both of those things. I remember thinking that about Kevin Durant when he was at Texas, how hard it was gonna be for him in the NBA to continue doing what he was doing as kind of a post-up player in college and also a 3-point threat. And low and behold he really struggled with that his first season, he spent too much time on the perimeter, the Sonics never gave him the ball in the post that year, and that was part of why he took a little longer to develop into that offensive force that people thought he was going to do. He showed more of it last year.

Rashard Lewis was another interesting example we had in Seattle. There was one year where basically the Sonics decided to make Rashard a post-up player. Every game he was getting a couple looks in the post and he not coincidentally had his worst 3-point percentage since he became a starter that season because all of his focus was directed at becoming a post player. And then ultimately we saw it pay off down the line where he became a much more versatile player because he could take small players in the post or go out on the perimeter and shoot 3-pointers. And then he went to Orlando and became the league’s leading 3-point shooter. So I don’t know exactly what the moral of that story is, but it’s hard to do both of those things very well.

BEN: Well which camp do you fall in, because I think it’s pretty clear which camp I fall in. The stuff that’s making me jump up and mutter swear words with LaMarcus is when he’s working inside hard, getting to the basket, dunking on people’s faces, yelling at the other team’s bench, grabbing rebounds with his elbows out, doing all those tough guy things. I’m not getting too excited when he hits 20 foot jumpers. And I’m definitely not getting too excited when Rashard Lewis is canning 3-pointer after 3-pointer and he’s supposed to be their power forward. I don’t know if that’s just the internationalization of the game but I’m just not crazy about seeing power forwards do that.

KP: Well are you crazy about going to the NBA finals? Because the Magic did that with Rashard Lewis. If you look at the finals the last few years, there’s always these key guys who make an impact in the playoffs. There’s these undersized power forwards who can defend reasonably and can shoot the three. Lewis last year, but also Lamar Odem for the Lakers. He’s not quite Lewis’s range but he fits that mold. James Posey playing the 4 for the Celtics in the 2008 finals. Robert Horry year after year. James Posey in Miami the year before. You can come up with so many examples of these guys that become incredibly valuable in the post season because spacing on the floor is so important and if you can stick four guys who can shoot the 3 around one guy in the post, or three guys who can shoot the 3 around two guys who can run the pick-and-roll at the top of the key which is the other thing Orlando has done so well the last couple of years, that becomes really hard to defend.

BEN: That’s a good point. So here’s my trick question for you. Now that you’ve made the convincing argument for all these versatile shoot-first 4’s, how come your top two free agents on your list for the summer were Paul Milsap and David Lee – not guys I would necessarily want shooting 3 point shots, guys who are more traditional?

KP: First off, Milsap’s agent told everyone in Portland he can shoot 3’s and Jerry Sloan just won’t let him.

BEN: Of course I remember that and he’s what, 1 for 11 for the season? Or 1 for 11 for his career?

KP: I think you can take it too far. I heard people say that Leon Poe wouldn’t be a good pick-up for Cleveland because he can’t shoot it all, but all he does is shoot 55% from the field and rebound like crazy. It’s all a balance, and you can’t go too far to one end of the extreme or the other, but Millsap and Lee are really good at what they do. But I also thought that if Lamar Odem were a 25-year-old power forward – a lot of having them as the top two free agents on the market. If Lamar Odem was their age and being the type of player who can stretch the floor he would have been the guy, because he has the ability to do a lot of things those guys do – and also the ability to shoot on top of that.

How Steve Novak helped me win an argument over KP2.

KP: I think where this debate started between the two of us is we were talking about where has been the biggest positional change in last 15 or 20 years in the NBA, and you argued power forward because of the evolution of the ability to shoot. And I disagreed at first and threw out point guard because of what’s happened just in the past decade with the rules reinterpretation helping quick guys. But then as I’ve been working on some stuff and thinking about it, I’ve come around to your point of view. You’ve sold me on this because I was writing about Steve Novak the other day of all people. And he’s virtually identical to Brad Lowhouse and Matt Bollard, these guys who we have their basketball cards in our basements, these 6’-11" big men who could not rebound at all and all they did was shoot 3 pointers. And back in the day these guys were considered just freaks of nature because what 6’-11" guy would want to spend all their time around the 3 point line. But nowadays they’d fit right in with everybody else.