Let's Talk About Martell Webster
by Dave on Aug 2, 2009 11:05 PM PDT
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Photo Courtesy of Tod Clark
Now that we're in the month of August and the start of the new regular season is closer than the end of the last one it's time to address one of the bigger roster issues facing the Blazers this year: what the heck to do with Martell Webster.
Having done this for a number of years now to me it seems like just yesterday that Martell was the franchise's most promising rookie, destined for stardom. In and after his first year in the league he was considered all but untradeable, for a team in Portland's situation anyway. Now, four years later, Webster is coming off of a season-ending injury into a muddled roster spot boasting a semi-spotty résumé himself. If there's a bigger question mark on the team than what's going to happen with Martell I'm hard pressed to identify it. The possibilities range all the way from earning the starting spot to getting traded.
Let's look at Martell's strong side first. If you take the corner and sideline looks that Nicolas Batum saw last season and give them to Martell on a regular basis the other team is dead. If he's that wide open Webster is going to hit a bunch of shots, most of them from three. Other teams will not be able to sag off of him, leading to less pressure in the interior, making Martell a valuable offensive asset no matter how many points he scores. Webster also has good size for his position. His game has taken leaps and bounds since that rookie season. He's actually transformed from abysmal to adequate in his understanding of the game and his ability to play defense. You see more rebounding effort out of him than he once evidenced as well. He's got a valuable skill, he's got effort, he's got potential, and he's got size. This sounds like a guy you want to give minutes to.
Flipping the coin, Martell is not, nor will he ever be, the defender that Nicolas Batum is already. We're praising him for staying in front of his man. When that's an achievement, you know you started pretty low. Martell has become more aggressive off the dribble as he's grown older but he's still only able to finish when there's a straight, unbroken line between him and the hoop. There's little or no left and right to his game. His handle is still spotty. He's neither a creator nor a passer. He seems destined to be more than just a weak-side shooter but he's not the kind of guy you can rely on to show consistency in more than shooting from the weak side. And the more this team wants to win at an elite level the more it's going to need and value consistency.
Conflicted feelings about Martell's game aside, he's also trying to re-emerge into the most stacked position on the team. He hasn't proven himself any kind of shooting guard and even were he to show those traits he can't find minutes around Brandon Roy and Rudy Fernandez. Coach McMillan has experimented with Martell at power forward in small lineups before but that's not a sustainable option and those minutes are precious as well. Seemingly cemented at small forward, Martell joins a corps featuring last year's starter and the primary bench player for this team over the last couple of seasons. There's not going to be a simple, bloodless solution for that traffic jam. Somebody's going to win minutes and somebody else is going to sit for long stretches. It's hard to imagine Martell being left on the bench if healthy. On the other hand if you want defense you're going with Nicolas Batum. If you want offense you're probably more comfortable with Outlaw at this point. Martell has skills in each area but he could play second fiddle in both. On the other hand that balance and experience could be just what the starting lineup needs. Yeesh.
I must admit that I'm rather at a loss as far as predicting what will happen with Martell. I am not sure what I, myself, would do with him. My suspicion is that the coaching staff and management, like all the rest of us, are waiting to see how the roster battle plays out.
I am reminded here of a Food Network show called Chopped. The premise is four professional chefs cooking against each other using 3-5 mystery ingredients that are usually ill-matched and of which they have no foreknowledge. The key factor is time. They are given 20-30 minutes to complete each dish, period. This roster situation feels like there's 10 minutes left in the round and we're staring at one of the ingredients we haven't used yet...one that takes 25 minutes to cook properly. The plate is set otherwise except we're required to throw in this last thing and we have no idea how to integrate it without dominating the dish and there's no time to treat it well. Chefs who get into that situation on the show usually end up throwing a lightly-salted piece of licorice on top of their mashed-potato entrée and praying. I'm wondering if the Blazers won't take exactly that approach.
Solve the mystery for us. What will happen with Martell this season, provided he's healthy. How will he be used, if at all? How can he help the team and what is the potential for disruption or displacement? What do you do if you're Coach McMillan? Let us know below.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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I think Martell will start off slow
But after he shakes off the rust, he’ll get back in the swing of things and earn some minutes behind Batum. He’ll earn his way into a solid backup. Trout or Martell won’t be here by the end of the season though.
I miss Martell. Come back soon!
He'll deffinintly start wayyy rusty
the expectations, the roster battle between him Batum/Outlaw will get to him at first, but he’s gonna be fine… quarter to mid way through he’ll be the martell we remember
by Lil0drummer0boy on Aug 2, 2009 11:19 PM PDT reply actions
Can't solve the mystery...
only Martell can.
But I think Miller might play a role in whether Webster gets a chance at more playing time. If Miller can emerge as the solid third scorer that the Blazers need and hit some big shots down the stretch, Outlaw’s role will be filled and he will most likely be moved for a back up PF or as part of another deal.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
But why would we keep Martell if we have enough scoring?
Martell and Travis are both scorers. Following your logic seems to say that if Miller is that third scorer, either of these guys could go. In fact, Batum’s defense becomes even more valuable on the starting unit.
But remember, Travis is a back-up PF. This is a role that could not work night in and night out with Martell.
So is Martell gone if Miller can score?
How about we keep all our talent until we fill up the Rose Garden with so many banners PA will think the luxury tax is cheap?
I think Martell has less trade value and more potential for non-scoring improvement.
Also he’s more of a court-spreading, sweet-shooting scorer than a black hole of taking it 1-on-1 like Outlaw, which while they both have their advantages, Nate probably likes Martell better.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
RT: Martell has less trade value
For now, he has negative trade value due to his injury. But even if he returns and is healthy Outlaw’s expiring contract will always be more attractive to another GM than the LTC that Webster signed last fall
at this point Marty is a “throw in” by the deadline he may have value on his won, but not as much as Travis. Putting the two of them together with the cap-space at the deadline might fetch a stud SF with a contract up to 10mil.
But I’m more interested in acquiring a veteran PF/C, heading in to the playoffs
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I think the Blazers still have hopes for Martell on the defensive end...
Outlaw is a one trick pony, but he has carved a niche for himself on this Blazer team. A niche that a lot of fans, and bloggers, undersell when they want to trade Outlaw for a bag of chips. He was the third scorer for the first three quarters and really the second option in the last two minutes of the game. What Portland needed to obtain before trading Outlaw, or obtain in a trade involving Outlaw, was a guy who could score 12-16 points most nights and 25 on any given night and hit big shots in crunch time. I think Miller fits into this role (in addition to others) making Travis the odd man out because Martell is more versatile.
I guess it could be Martell that gets traded but I tend to agree with the idea that Outlaw has more value because his is an expiring contract and because he has defined the role he could play for another team while Webster’s role is a bit mirkier. Martell is more valuable to the Blazers because they can afford to wait and see what happens with his foot and what he does to reach his potential. They can trade Travis because Batum is the future and Rudy and Roy can log effective minutes in a 3 guard line-up if Martell is slow to come back from the foot injury.
I love the team as is with one exception…back up PF. Pendy could step up but I would like to see a veteran added to help with rebounding and interior defense rather than having Outlaw play the PF position.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
The big question is whether the foot is healthy.
If i is, I lose no time trading Travis Outlaw to an Eastern Conference team OR the Memphis Grizzlies for some sort of backup PF and/or a first round draft pick.
The ideal situation would be to trade him for just the pick, thus creating cap space.
Marty is my starting SF if he’s back, and I’m going serious hockey substitutions with a speedburning 2nd unit of Miller/Rudy/Nic/Pendy/Oden.
I keep Pryz as the starter not because I dislike Oden, but rather I want to keep Miller and Oden together as a pair. Thus he’s on the “backup” running unit.
And I’m playing the two units AS units, and I’m playing the second unit a ton…
I really hate using Travis at the 4 because he’s congenitally incapable of boxing out. So he has to go.
Sorry, Annie.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Aug 2, 2009 11:20 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I like the second unit...
but I think LaMarcus would benefit even more than Oden at this point from playing with Miller in that up tempo unit. Maybe we start “Pendy” and bring LaMarcus in with the second unit.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
No, I think you need to keep Roy and LMA as a pair. You can't run Pendy and Pryz at the same time either, there has to be more scoring pop on the floor.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
The think I'm most excited about in the coming season is that I think Nate is going to SERIOUSLY try the speed unit idea. And now he has the horses to run it...
Realistically, that will be Outlaw at the 4 of the second unit if he doesn’t get shipped.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I know we are supposed to be talking Webster here...
I just don’t see Nate using Miller in the second unit. I love Blake but Miller will make everyone better, that includes Roy and LaMarcus.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Well, presuming you're right (and Miller is unquestionably the better of the two)...
That means you need to start Nic and run Marty off the bench — because Nic is the ONE AND ONLY Blazer that runs correctly. (LMA actually runs really well for a 4 also…)
You’d have
Miller — Roy — Nic — LMA — Oden
and
Blake — Rudy — Marty — Travis — Pryz
That’s definitely the way you want to have things shake out come playoff time (where the best starting 5 wins) but during the season that is not a bench that is going to MURDER people.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Miller is really a wild card for the Blazers
Nate can essentially run out the same team as last year and look pretty damn good. But Miller could really transform the team into something that Blake and Roy never could.
When guys get rewarded for running out on the break, they generally keep doing it. Miller will reward guys for out running their man down the court. Blake did on occasion. Roy rarely does. So it makes sense that guys would quit running and conserve energy. Maybe it will be different after the first few breakaways.
Also, I really hope we see Miller reducing Roy’s minutes at the point, or initiating the offense so that energy can be put into defense and transition.
OK, I will get back to Martell now… He has never really played with a veteran distributor. It will be interesting to see if he can benefit from the addition of Miller by getting out on the break and by keeping up the constant motion in the halfcourt.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Watch him move without the ball in that 24-points-in-a-quarter video clip...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVXnJDBtnI
If he can get back to moving like that with Miller in the game, watch out.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I remember without watching it
I hope that is the first of many more amazing moments for Webster in a Blazer uniform.
It will be fun if the first unit has Webster running off of screens, back and forth all over the court and then the second unit has Rudy doing the same. Those two guys could wear out some defenders as the game goes on.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
i was really excited to see martell breakout last season
the chemistry that he and rudy showed in that first game was magnificent. it was leaps and bounds better than his play the year prior. Sergio, Rudy, and Martell would have formed a trio that would have rivaled the “Bash Brothers” from Mighty Ducks 2.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Aug 3, 2009 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
pin down screen and curl offense
If Blake is the PG with the second unit, this is the best offense to run
Przy to set the screens, not sure what Travis will be doing…could use another big man to set screens…deal Outlaw for a veteran PF/C
Rudy and Martell come off the screens and Blake delivers the pass on time (which is one of Steve’s strengths, BTW) and the two wings play pop-a-shot from the perimeter
this reminds me of Dr. Jack’s offense for Jim Paxson, back in the day
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Best thing about that clip
Is the announcer: “this shows the variety of Nate McMillan’s offense” or something like that.
Given all the complaining about Nate’s inflexibility, I found this hilarious.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
with that starting lineup
you only have LaMarcus to really spread the floor with his college three shot. Nic looks like he will get better at the deep ball with time, but still this lineup leaves wings to sag off and clog up Roy or Miller.
I think it will be interesting to see how things develop. Your proposed starting unit could actually do really well, but as tssbro commented, Miller is the wild card. If he does get Roy easier shots even if there is less of a threat behind the arc, this lineup would be great. Hard to tell how Roy will play with an uptempo style, perhaps he has just never had a shot creator with him to allow him to run free.
It seems like the first month of the season will be a lot of mixing and matching. Rudy’s off the ball movement combined with either Travis’s improved spot up three (or Martel’s beautiful looking jumper)
That is true, but
From what I have read, Miller will make everybody on our team that he plays with better. BRoy and LMA do most of our scoring anyway, so IMO it would be more important to make the second unit better.
If Martell’s foot is better and he hasn’t lost his touch at the 3 and is starting than he would give the first unit that extra scoring threat. If not, Batuum’s is being schooled to be an offensive threat. That would also give the extra threat. I don’t know if you would want to put Martell in a running unit right now.
Therefore as true as your statement is in my opinion, Miller would better serve Greg, Batuum, Rudy and Outlaw. You could even throw JBay in the speed mobile in place of Travis and put Batman at the four?
bbk
by BBK on Aug 3, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions
the key is Martell. If he is healthy and ready to go, I expect to see Travis become a Memphis Grizzly. Maybe a three-way deal where we take Kurt Thomas off the Bucks’ hands and give Memphis Travis for a first.
optimism ftw
For some reason, I still believe that the New Jersey Nets would be the optimal fit for Travis Outlaw.
1. The Nets have an opening at the starting small forward position, as Bobby Simmons, Jarvis Hayes, and Trenton Hassell are a craptacular trio.
2. The Nets have a sizeable trade exception obtained from the Vince Carter trade.
3. The Nets own the Dallas Mavericks 2010 first-round draft pick — which was acquired in the Jason Kidd trade — and that’d be a perfect asset for the Portland Trail Blazers to acquire in return for Outlaw.
I’d make that deal this second, too, since I have faith that Dante Cunningham could adequately fill the backup power forward spot behind LaMarcus Aldridge.
Yet, if it’s at all possible, I’d love to turn my above trade proposal into a three-team deal by adding the Indiana Pacers to the mix, with Jeff Foster heading to Portland and Jerryd Bayless heading back to the franchise that originally drafted him.
I’ve previously mentioned that idea on here, too.
“FROM INDIANA
Jeff Foster ($6,077,500)
FROM NEW JERSEY
Eduardo Najera ($3,000,000)
2010 First-Round Draft Pick (Via The Dallas Mavericks)
Conditional Draft Pick(s) (Via The Golden State Warriors: Top-14 Protected In 2011, Top-11 Protected In 2012, & Top-10 Protected In 2013; If First-Round Pick Isn’t Conveyed By 2013 It Becomes A 2013 Second-Round Draft Pick & 2015 Second-Round Draft Pick)
FROM PORTLAND
Travis Outlaw ($3,600,000)
Jerryd Bayless ($2,143,080)
TO INDIANA
Eduardo Najera ($3,000,000)
Jerryd Bayless ($2,143,080)
TO NEW JERSEY
Travis Outlaw ($3,600,000)
TO PORTLAND
Jeff Foster ($6,077,500)
2010 First-Round Draft Pick (Via The Dallas Mavericks)
Conditional Draft Pick(s) (Via The Golden State Warriors: Top-14 Protected In 2011, Top-11 Protected In 2012, & Top-10 Protected In 2013; If First-Round Pick Isn’t Conveyed By 2013 It Becomes A 2013 Second-Round Draft Pick & 2015 Second-Round Draft Pick)
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=my6g7h
For the Indiana Pacers, the team would get a much-ballyhooed prospect project in Jerryd Bayless.
For the New Jersey Nets, the team would get a one-year stopgap at small forward in Travis Outlaw — who’s vastly superior to the craptacular trio of Bobby Simmons, Jarvis Hayes, and Trenton Hassell — as well as slash guaranteed salaries of $2,500,000 in the 2010-2011 season and $2,250,000 in the 2011-2012 season by dumping Eduardo Najera.
For the Portland Trail Blazers, the team would get a defensive-minded backup at power forward in Jeff Foster — who would also serve as an emergency center, as well as push both Jeff Pendergraph and Dante Cunningham to third-stringer/D-Leaguer status — and, moreover, get some future draft picks in return for the superfluous Outlaw and overhyped Bayless."
Everyone is a winner, too, except for the loony Bayless fanatics, but that’s their problem for obsessing over a third-string combo guard.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
by AK1984 on Aug 3, 2009 1:42 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I bet myself on the way down this post that it was you, AK.
And I was right! Though that’s probably not too spectacular, I’ve just noticed your habit of quoting yourself.
Anyway I’d be down with this trade, it all depends on how much the teams value JBay and Travis. Unfortunately, I think KP and co might value them (especially Bayless) more than this.
And to clarify, that Golden State pick is the first available pick or the two second rounders? Ex. if they made the playoffs all three years, one would only get the 2011 pick?
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
As I read it, the return that the New Jersey Nets will get from the Golden State Warriors ...
for Marcus Williams last year is as follows based on the conditions established in the original deal.
1. 2011 first-round draft pick if Golden State picks 15th or lower that year, but if not …
2. 2012 first-round draft pick if Golden State picks 12th or lower that year, but if not …
3. 2013 first-round draft pick if Golden State picks 11th or lower that year, but if not …
4. 2013 second-round draft pick and 2015 second-round draft pick.
Basically, New Jersey is banking on Golden State being respectable during at least one of the 2010-2011, 2011-2012, or 2012-2013 seasons; otherwise, the return will be just two second-round draft picks in lieu of a first-round draft pick.
Anyway, you’re most certainly right that the Portland Trail Blazers brass values Jerryd Bayless more than me. That’s their prerogative, though.
Regardless, I could see Travis Outlaw being dealt straight up to the Nets for a 2010 first-round draft pick (via the Dallas Mavericks). That, without a doubt, would be a fair deal for both teams.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
So is Jeff Foster the new Kirk Hinrich?
How will I ever forgive myself for the evil creature I have spawned?
I’m not in such a hurry to deal Bayless, but I can understand why AK1984 may be (actually, I think this was AK’s proposal that saved me from my ill-fated “Outlaw and Bayless for Foster and Deiner” trade suggestion…talk about a real “evil spawn”)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yeah, it'd go Kirk Hinrich, Jeff Foster, and then Rasho Nesterovic.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Wow, I'm stunned that I forgot about Mike Miller.
Yeah, he’s second on that list. Yet, with Rudy Fernandez on the roster, there truly is no room for Miller in Portland. Regarding Jeff Foster and Kirk Hinrich, however, there’s still an argument that they’d make a difference.
Of course, trading for Foster is more realistic than Hinrich at this point. Still, I’d happily trade Steve Blake and Travis Outlaw — as well as the draft rights of the three Euros (i.e., Victor Claver, Joel Freeland, & Petteri Koponen) — to Chi-Town for the “Captain” before the season.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
wouldn't the Pacers be much more willing to dump Murphy's salary rather than Foster's?
or do they make a comparable salary? – Elgin
Without you out there, we're nowhere here
yes, and no
yes, the Pacers want to dump Murphy’s 11+mil salary. But who will bail them out? Only the “greater fool”
http://www.storytellerscontracts.info/resources/09-10salaries.htm
and no, Foster is only making 6+ mil. But I figure Indy would “save” nearly 10 mil in an Foster-Outlaw trade, if they let Travis walk after the season. And that’s almost like dumping Troy’s contract, except they get to keep Murphy…
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I like it generally
Except I really, really wonder if you are better off, if you have a speed-burning second unit, to keep Travis as the PF. Sure, his defensive rebounding lacks, but Greg (or Joel, whichever center is there) helps to make up for that. And how many times would Travis beat his man downcourt for an easy bucket or a an easy follow on the break?
You lose something with Travis at the 4, but in a speedburner unit, you probably gain back more.
I also want Greg to start, because we can use his offensive threat in the first quarter. Let him get Miller minutes in the second half — play your units together in the first half.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
How are you answering your own question?
I have never been comfortable with Outlaw in the open floor. Even when he is all alone I cringe until he actually gets the ball up into his hands and into the basket. He has many skills but looking comfortable on the break is not one of them.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Travis is one of the Disaster Runners — but the whole Blazer team runs like a Saturday rec league after four beers...
’Cept for Nic.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Rudy runs a decent fast break, as does LMA. Roy wasn’t horrible at trailing the play, either… just wasn’t comfortable leading it.
optimism ftw
I guess Rudy is okay.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
he did fall into the Euro “run to the three point line and frantically call for ball” rut.
optimism ftw
that was coaching
not rudy. portland needs teaching in fundamentals about filling lanes and timing the pass. high school stuff, really, but obviously never taught to the americans on our team.
hopefully Miller’s excellent BBIQ helps in this regard.
optimism ftw
by Cablinasian on Aug 3, 2009 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Using BRoy in a fast break.
CP3 and BRoy did wonderful in a fast break. Would contineus fast breaks be rough on BRoy’s knee or is it the twisting and turning he does that irritates it?
by BBK on Aug 3, 2009 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Fear and Loathing on the Fast Break...
the whole Blazer team runs like a Saturday rec league after four beers…
I must say, this made me laugh for roughly five minutes straight…
Chaos and Alcohol worked well for Hunter S. Thompson though, huh?
I kinda like that…
Like a Haiku in the half court (methodical and efficient)
and Hunter S. Thompson on the run…
Probably not good for basketball, but its poetic at least.
This is the Edge after all…
Travis will be better on the break
if he has a coach on the floor saying, “I want you to run there, not there or there. And when you do, you will then jump and I will put the ball up there where all you have to do is catch it and slam it down. That is it.”
A good fastbreak PG can make Travis look good on the break. Just watch.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Aug 3, 2009 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
With regards to pace, coaching trumps everything.
As long as Nate McMillan is guiding the ship, y’all are having a pie in the sky pipe dream if you folks think the Portland Trail Blazers’ pace won’t be in the bottom fifth of the NBA.
Yeah, I’m sure Kevin Prtichard has tried to push McMillan into upping the tempo. Yet, even with the GM breathing down his back and Andre Miller now on the team, there still won’t be any run-and-gun basketball in Oregon — unless y’all check out the UO women’s basketball team led by Paul Westhead — with “Sarge” making only tiny, incremental adjustments at best apropos of sporadically running a conventional fast break.
Oddly, the slow-paced nature of McMillan’s system is one of the few things I like about him. If anything, y’all should complain about his obtuse, thick-skulled mindset when it comes to not making necessary on the fly adjustements.
That negative quality reared its ugly head throughout the Houston Rockets series, as McMillan stuck with his extremely rigid substitution patterns — such as playing the ineffective Channing Frye rather than allowing Joel Przybilla or Greg Oden to play through their foul troubles, starting Nicolas Batum five games when it was obviously a bad matchup for him, and not reigning in Travis Outlaw’s inefficient play the entire time — and, moreover, decided against fronting Yao Ming during the first game in what was a costly choice.
Anyway, my point is McMillan’s implementation of a plodding, albeit efficient offensive system is the last thing people should harp on with concerns to his coaching style.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
I do think that alot of the analysis I see on here is moot
Not only will KP be unable to change Nate — and why should he, Nate runs one of the most efficient offenses in the league with the youngest active line-up — but Andre Miller is coming.
Whether Dre starts or not, a real coach on the floor will change how this team plays. We will start to see who can do what when the ball starts hitting anybody who’s open.
Defense improves with age. I am hoping to stop my whining about that end of the court in the next year or two.
RT: his extremely rigid substitution patterns
I was complaining that KP didn’t provide Nate with a decent quality big man option back at last year’s trading deadline, and then the Blazers got the worst possible 1st round draw (Rockets) and I watched as my worst fears were realized as Outlaw and Frye were outmuscled by their Houston counterparts
I guess you can blame Nate for not being “more adamant” that KP add a veteran banger to the roster when he had the opportunity (with RLEC) but you must’ve noticed that McMillian is still chirping about needing a “beast 4” this offseason and all he’s gotten so far are a couple of “rookies”
I think Andre Miller AND a better veteran option at PF/C would help Nate’s rigid coaching rotations considerably. Instead of having to yell at Travis for giving up the baseline and then getting “rushed” by Outlaw during a timeout, Nate could look down his bench a select a quality veteran big man to spell LMA.
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
RT: keep Travis as the PF. Sure, his defensive rebounding lacks
I’ve got just two words in response to this idea
“Houston series”
If that doesn’t cause a shudder down your spine, you need to get your short-term memory checked
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
You really think that "Pendy" is ready for prime time???
Really, off that summer league. In a year or two, but not off what he showed. Sure, he’ll get minutes. More likely to get significant minutes is Cunningham, and he is playing behind Batum, Webster, Travis (PT) and Roy (PT).
This is a SF article and no one is bringing up the surprise pick of Summer League. Cunningham out-performed his pick value by about 30 slots.
And are we moving Travis to move Travis? At least your argument makes sense. We need a banger PF. You know it. I know it. Nate and KP know it. And the Utah Jazz know it. How about we get Turiaf? KP is a genius with the picks, but maybe we package a pick+player to get him.
If we trade a SF
Then Dante is 3rd string SF and Pendy is 3rd string PF/maybe C in garbage time. I doubt either of them moves into a bench-rotation role barring injuries. If we don’t move a SF then I guess they’re both behind Outlaw at PF, based on what KP’s said.
Trading Outlaw for a backup PF fixes so much. SO much.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
by austinpwnz on Aug 3, 2009 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Travis Outlaw is dealt before the season -- which really ought to occur at this point -- then I ...
feel that Kevin Pritchard should sign a third-string small forward to provide depth at the position in case Martell Webster is ineffective or once again injures himself. Regarding Dante Cunningham, he’s a pure pick-‘n’-pop power forward; he lacks the range to play the 3 and the bulk to play the 5.
So, if Outlaw is shipped out elsewhere as I expect, then Ime Udoka should be offered a one-year, minimum-level contract to come back to Portland. If Webster is 100% healthy, then Udoka would be excellent pratice fodder for both him and Nicolas Batum. Yet, if Webster has reaggravating foot problems, then Udoka could play in a pinch.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Pendergraph
hard to judge based on Summer League.
We’re talking about 12 minutes at backup PF. In probably 1/3 of cases, Travis gives us an advantage due to matchup problems he creates, etc. In probably 1/3 of cases, he’s adequate. About 1/3 of the time, we might be badly hurt with Travis as our backup PF.
Will Pendergraph be good enough for those times? We’re not talking about a whole lot of minutes, so we don’t actually need him to be good, just adequate.
I’m not sure we have enough evidence to know whether he’ll do the job for us. Lots of teams use rookies regularly in their rotation in much more significant roles. And Pendy isn’t a one and done rookie, either, he had four years, so should be a little more NBA ready.
We’ll see.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
RT: Lots of teams use rookies regularly in their rotation in much more significant roles
Sure they do, until the playoffs roll around and every possession means something
And there’s a huge difference between a “lottery talent” rookie and a couple of 2nd rounders
Are LMA, Greg and Joel gonna play all 82 games and average 25+ mpg? If not, the front court (lack of) depth will be exposed, sooner or later
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Big Question is whether the foot is healthy
That is the no 1 issue. The second issue is how long it will take to be able to play 100% on it, much like Greg’s knee time period.
I agree with Greg and Miller, Batuum and Miller. I think Miller would make Outlaw that much better on offense that his lack of blocking out may not be as important. Or he could put some bricks in his back pockets ( :>). IMO, Pendergraph or Cunningham on a speed burning second unit would not be as effective as Travis at this time in their development.
bbk
by BBK on Aug 3, 2009 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Nice 2nd unit, but...
I want to give Outlaw a chance as 2nd PF. This is not my usual stance, but I think it would be prudent to make sure he hasn’t added rebounding to his arsenal before we trade him away. Last season he managed to take a step back and enter three point land, perhaps this season he can step up and give Mike Rice that haircut he’s been asking for.
Really, I just can’t wait for camp. Folks are going crazy over who’s going to win the battle of the PG and SG, but I think the real fireworks will be for the backup PF role. Yes, the Outlaw/Pendergraph/Cunningham menage a trois will a real slug-fest. Think about it; will Jeff’s interior defense be needed with Oden on the job? Will Dante’s pick-and-pop be needed with Rudy on the floor? What will Outlaw bring?
What we can be sure of is if Martell is healthy, he will start at SF, and Outlaw isn’t about to squeeze Batum out of the rotation. This means that if he can’t cut it as backup PF, Travis finds a new home. Now, if Webster is still hurting at curtain call, Outlaw has some options and Webster is out of luck, and after watching that link that you posted to his 24 pt. quarter, I really hope this is not the case(it had been so long since I’d seen him play, I forget what his game looked like).
I hope that foot is strong, because I would love to see us open the season with a starting lineup of Blake/Roy/Webster/Aldridge/Przybilla, keepin’ it real.
Go Blazers.
by 500dogs on Aug 3, 2009 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
the Outlaw/Pendergraph/Cunningham menage a trois
rec for mixing in the “menage a trois”
I hope you don’t mind if I vote for “none of the above” to be LMA’s ultimate backup at PF from March-May
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Consider this:
You all might find these statistics interesting..
Martell Webster (6’7" Guard) in 07-08:
75 games played, 28.4 min/game,
10.7 ppg, 3.9 rbds, 1.2 assists
.422 FG%, .388 3pt % (1.6 – 4.2 per game)
Travis Outlaw (6’9" Forward) in 08-09:
81 games played, 27.7 min/game,
12.8 ppg, 4.1 rbds, 1 assist
.453 FG%, .377 3pt % (1.1 – 2.9 per game)
—
Who of the two players I listed above is more expendable with those stats? Let’s assume Webster can return to 07-08 form. I love that Travis can create his own shot and he deserves minutes. But who could argue with a lineup of Roy, Rudy, Webster at 1/2/3? Consider the options we have to spread the floor with that group. I’m not trying to throw Travis under the bus. But if Webster makes a real comeback, maybe you let him backup Batum. I think it’s purely situational. Webster will never be able to guard more physical 3s like LeBron or most of the really athletic guys. He just doesn’t have the mass or length. But maybe that’s where you use Travis situationally at the 3 and 4. You can fit Webster back into the lineup but it would be at Travis’ expense for certain.
Outlaw played "Power Forward" for a BIG part of his time, Webster the Nathian Corner 3...
You absolutely can NOT compare rebounding stats for the two.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Well..
I was more looking at 3pt FG% and number of 3pt shots made. I know we had Outlaw at the 4 alot. But he also played backup 3 as well. I’m simply suggesting that Webster could come back and put a dent in Travis’ minutes backing up Batum. The article discusses Rudy and Roy. I guarantee you Webster will not impact either of their minutes. Rudy has arrived in just his first year with the team. Webster even in 07-08 never really earned that praise I don’t think. So, how about this then?
Martell Webster (6’7" Guard) in 07-08:
75 games played, 28.4 min/game,
10.7 ppg, 3.9 rbds, 1.2 assists
.422 FG%, .388 3pt % (1.6 – 4.2 per game)
Rudy Fernandez (6’6" Guard) in 08-09:
78 games played, 25.6 min/game,
10.4 ppg, 2.7 rbds, 2 assists
.425 FG%, .399 3pt % (2.0 – 5.1 per game)
Sorry, but there’s no way Webster sees time at SG next year unless Roy or Rudy are injured.
Zero.
Remember this Marty...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVXnJDBtnI
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
That clip is fantastic
If we could see that level of confidence and skill (yes, skill – he did a great job of running through picks to shake Miles and Korver) on Marty’s return, I’d have no qualms about keeping him and trading Outlaw.
It may be his career highlight
but it’s pretty ridiculous to think that Webster’s season high total for points in a quarter last year was more than three of our starters’ season highs for points in a game this year.
I think Dave is right, but he doesn’t really go far enough. I’m not sure people really appreciate how much better Webster was on offense in 07/08 than Nic was this year.
Deal is, Marty came straight out of HS. Now his body is READY. He's gonna be a monster!!!
It’s all about the foot though. That thing has to be right…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
The foot..
..is what worries me. We need production out of Martell next year before the trade deadline. I have a sneaking suspicion that we may wait until the trade deadline to decide between Travis and Martell. One of those guys I don’t see on our team come playoffs next year. That’s assuming they are both healthy and playing reasonably well.
"The new moron in town is Chad Ford of ESPN.com."
– Mark Cuban
What's to decide?
Keep them both. Is there a rule against it?
by LaoTzu on Aug 3, 2009 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Keep them both? Been there, done that
It was called the Bob Whitsitt chemistry experiment, gone awry
If Outlaw is content playing 12-15 mpg then sure…keep ‘em both. Then maybe you’ll get killed on the boards in the first round of the playoffs, again?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Bottom line, if Martell is healthy, the Blazers have a very talented wing to add to the stable to talented young wings… however, I think that takes depth a little too far. Martell and Batum splitting 36 minutes at the 3, with Travis soaking up the remaining 12-14 at the 4? The math just isn’t working out. Something’s gotta give.
optimism ftw
Dave is such a man's man.
The food channel? Seriously?
The Kings have the best bench I’ve seen. There are easily 14 guys on this team good enough for every bench in the league. Now if we could only get some starters, I’d totally jizz in my pants.
Kings fan
Meet me in Kitchen Stadium
and say that. Not the crappy American one either. I want the chairman, Asako Kishi, and Lower House Member Shinichiro Kurimoto present when I tromp you in Battle Electric Eel. We’ll see who’s manly when we’re grabbing those suckers out of the fish tank.
—Dave
by Dave on Aug 3, 2009 12:45 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Today's secret ingredient is.......
…..THE PICK AND ROLL!!!!!!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
by philly420pdxhilo on Aug 3, 2009 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec for awesome
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
I am not volunteering as a judge if y'all cooking fugu (blowfish)
Or Trout, for that matter. He’s been fried rock hard by posters on this site recently, anyway.
Many Food Channel shows are aimed at men. Manly men. Men who love knives and fire and cutthroat competition.
In prime time, the Food Network’s mise-en-scène shifts to masculine arenas like the Kitchen Stadium on "Iron Chef," where famous restaurant chefs wage gladiatorial combat to see who can, in 60 minutes, concoct the most spectacular meal from a secret ingredient ceremoniously unveiled just as the clock starts: an octopus or a bunch of bananas or a whole school of daurade. Whether in the Kitchen Stadium or on "Chopped" or "The Next Food Network Star" or, over on Bravo, "Top Chef," cooking in prime time is a form of athletic competition, drawing its visual and even aural vocabulary from "Monday Night Football."
Starting vs off the bench
Last year we found ourselves in a substantial deficit at the end of the first quarter in many games. Blame it on the 2nd unit, or blame it on the lack of offense from Pryz, Batum, and partially Blake. Martell’s offense was sorely missed last year. However depending on whether Miller starts or not, I’d be more comfortable having Martell come off the bench. I’d be more infavor of starting Batum at this point. Granted I know he is still young and has flaws in his game, but I’d just like to see a defensive SF now that our starting lineup has a 3rd competent scorer.
Nic still does have a lot to prove, but at this point I feel more comfortable with Nic continuing his role from last year vs giving Bayless the backup position. If we had to clear a player…I’d be much happier clearing out Trout to make way for Batum than I would clearing out Blake to make room for Bayless.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Aug 3, 2009 12:30 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah..
This is a very accurate assessment. We do have rough first quarters.
I still think Travis is the player most impacted if Martell comes back strong.
Blake, Rudy, Webster..
As a second unit that’s pretty crazy.
To Turkoglu, who's going to feel this way every time he thinks about the good people of Portland. Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
agreed
i’ve always felt that Trout was the odd man out. Last year we may have needed him, but this year I think that Martell and Rudy can share the load and fill the void that Trout leaves behind.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Aug 3, 2009 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions
WebMart may be key
to the playing time and lineup dilemma but that doesn’t mean you have to dump Outlaw. He is health insurance that may pay a dividend. The Blazers don’t know what will happen with Webster so you keep some depth at both 3 & 4. Outlaw may actually step up one more level and the Blazers have the luxury of finding out.
Travis overmatched by a big power forward? Let him sit and GregZilla stand up – I like that look a lot anyway. Pendergast MIGHT be an option for a couple of minutes and a couple of fouls. They’ve got time to find out, if they play him some. Won’t they have some cap room back if they want to buy some more beef?
As to Webmart, what’s the rush? I don’t care about the first half of the season at all as long as he has his wind and his touch back by April. And there are plenty of other logs in the jam, right? TAKE YOUR TIME!!! (I shout)
I’m with timbo (and PR Nate) on having the starters back and using Miller with Oden and Rudy. I think Outlaw could work well with that unit (or maybe Inferno) and really push the tempo. If Martell can join them, all the better.
The biggest reason is to pair Oden with Miller to promote his offensive development as that could have a huge impact come playoff time.
I don’t care much about the playing time melodrama. I don’t think Nate does either. Nate should just run them all ragged when they are in and the minutes will stretch out. Besides, the minutes will change from game to game depending on match-ups and the score. i want to see Roy get some knee rest off-time through the year and especially want Nate to invest some playing time in developing Nic, Rudy and Bayless and to rehab WebMart.
60 wins is not the goal this year – it is 4 wins, or 8 if they can… 12 if they click on all 10 cylinders.
in other words, they keep Webster, they keep Outlaw, and they should give guys a chance to play and grow instead of getting caught up in worrying about winning each and every regular season game like its the playoffs. You want someone not named Roy comfortable taking game-winning buzzer shots in the playoffs? Let them try a few during the regular season…
I'm a big fan of Martell Webster
He’s my favourate player on the team after Brandon, maybe tied with favourate, so I am biased for sure.
Last year he was looking unreal before he got hurt. My prediction is that he will become the team’s third leading scorer and have a great season.
Oh yeah, Martell needs to enter the 3 point comp. I can’t see him losing. But like I said, I’m biased.
by hugetrailblazerfan on Aug 3, 2009 12:51 AM PDT reply actions
I just remember...
Jason Quick drooling over one player before pre-season camp last season, and that was Martell. He was impressed about just how much better his attitude and work ethic was, especially compared to Trout. If he can get that same fire in his belly, I wouldn’t be suprised to see Martell finally blossom into a VERY good small forward. I still think that Batum is the future of the position, but for now, the best thing would be for Martell to live up to his potential.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
by philly420pdxhilo on Aug 3, 2009 1:10 AM PDT reply actions
Timbo
That clip only makes me beg for the season to start now.
Martel will come back and will be nothing short of spectacular. Remember, He already had 2 seasons in, it wont take him 1/4 as long to shake off the rust as it did G.O. I just cannot wait until the Martel doubt is put to silence and we move on. As quick as we are as fans to forget about how good someone is, it only takes a genious like Timbo to link the video of 24 points in a quarter. Martel has a stroke that Outlaw can only dream of. And I say that in the kindest of ways.
People don’t want to hear it, but Outlaw is not Jermaine O’Neal, he won’t go somewhere and be an all-star. We knew what we had when we got rid of Jermaine, we just had someone who happened to play better than him (RASHEEEEEEED!!!11) With Outlaw we know what we have, and we have someone in front of him who happens to be an all around better player (Telly) Outlaw fit a need last year but this year he will be gone.
With love,
Shribs
"Intent is prior to content, the question is, does this generation really want truth?"
"Cogito ergo sum" -Descartes
I think Martell has become better in the mind of many fans the longer he has been injured. Yet the team expects nothing significant/consistent from Martell next season.
If he can give them something, fine. That’s like adding another FA in the words of KP. If he can’t, that won’t kill the team.
They wouldn’t have tried to attract Hedo if they were confident Martell was the up-and-coming SF solution giving them all that. Like Dave wrote his handles aren’t great especially with the off-hand, his lateral quickness is suspect, his ability to create his own shots off the dribble aren’t all that good (though he is a very good pick-and-pop and especially catch-and-shoot player). That was before his injury. At the moment, he is barely running like normal, much less jumping, dribbling, etc. Coach Monty talked to him about just catching – stabilizing – shooting, nothing fancy, no crossovers, no additional dribbles. That will be his role at the beginning of the season if he is back to health. Stand in the corner. Catch. Shoot.
Now he did show good signs in one pre-season game against Sacramento, especially in combination with Rudy expecting passes when moving towards the rim. If he can build on that, he could become more valuable. But it would be a bit much to expect him to have improved his game while rehabbing a foot without being able to stand on it and extrapolate from that game. And yes, I know he once had a great quarter against Utah that contributed to his legend. Only he never converted that into consistent great games. He rarely again went over 20 points, and never over 30 in a game.
So apart from any miracle improvements, Nic is by far the better prospect going into the next season. His three point shooting in his first year (.369) wasn’t all that worse than Martell’s in his third and final healthy year (.388). Let’s say the main SF next year plays 25-30 minutes and takes 4 threes per game which is what Martell did (Nic took less, but e.g. more than Trevor Ariza), and now there probably aren’t more minutes and opportunities with Roy (who will also play some SF), Miller, Greg, LMA, Travis, etc. all needing shots so that’s not too low. In Nic’s first year vs. Martell’s third year, the difference comes down to 1 more made three about every 15 games if both would take 4 attempts/play the same minutes. Even if Martell takes and makes one more three than Nic each game because defenses sag off him, is that reason enough to play Martell more with all else Nic can give you on man-to-man defense, and with his athleticism to get blocks and rebounds, and improving handles? The French team IS using him as a SG at least as long as Parker is out. And he took 3, 5, 3, 4 threes in the last games, and hit them at a pretty nice rate (7 of 15 in total with one bad game, 4/5 in one game). Now you add Miller to the game, who can find players for open looks, on the fast break, driving to the basket. There is little doubt to me that will benefit Nic at least as much as Martell.
So to me at the moment until he comes back completely healthy and improved, Martell is the odd man out and not Nic or Travis with Nate trusting him on 2 positions and late in games to create his shot. Only no team will take him at the moment (at least at a fair price) until he has proven that he is healthy again and contributes, so we have until at least the deadline to see what he can do again.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
by Norsktroll on Aug 3, 2009 1:21 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
They wouldn’t have tried to attract Hedo if they were confident Martell was the up-and-coming SF solution giving them all that
that’s not entirely true, KP just likes to stock talent, especially if they had in mind to move Travis if they got Hedo. There’s no way they keep Travis and trade Martel…..
"Intent is prior to content, the question is, does this generation really want truth?"
"Cogito ergo sum" -Descartes
Mostly because Outlaw has trade value and Webby doesn't.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
by austinpwnz on Aug 3, 2009 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't agree that's the reason
I think when you look at what the 2 players offer, it is clear that Martel is a much better talent than Outlaw. Outlaw has had more years in the league out of high school than Martel, was drafted lower, and can do what? Jump high to shoot over a defender? We saw how well that worked in the Playoffs. If they thought Travis was going to be great, why did they not extend him before Martel? Why pay Martel 5 mil a year while he’s injured instead of Mr. 4th qrtr?
"Intent is prior to content, the question is, does this generation really want truth?"
"Cogito ergo sum" -Descartes
Could be. Just sometimes I get the feeling fans expect a one-stop solution player with the skills of Granger/Durant on offense and Batum/Ariza on defense back. Wohoo if that happens, it’s just extremely unlikely he has added that much to his game – while being injured. Dave observes weaknesses, so do I, so does DraftExpress, Hollinger, …
I’m not against keeping Martell for his obvious shooting qualities, and in fact I think one reason no major lopsided trade was made in the last 6 months is that the team wants to see what they have in him before making a move. So I wouldn’t expect any changes in that regard until at least the deadline. But until then, it sounds daring to trade a player who has shown what he can do (and what not, but is already working out hard) in favor of a player who comes back from major injury and couldn’t do all that before.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
RT: already working out hard
Do we know what Outlaw is working on? From his twitter/facebook has he said anything more specific than “I just got back from the gym”? I wouldnt mind seeing Travis come back to fall camp all “buff” and ready to bang, but I’m not counting on it. I know Outlaw’s dad (“big John”) is “strong, like bull” but so far that physique hasn’t been transfered to his son
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I agree with you
This is a good evaluation from Portland’s point of view, and becomes trade motivation once Martell proves he’s healthy and at least 90% of what he once was.
However, from the point of view of another team right now, Martell may never play basketball beyond a Shavlik Randolph (“had a lot of promise before his big injury”) level. And Coach Demo I believe said that “every team has called about Travis” or something to that extent. So it’s their perceived or perhaps their assured value that makes Travis a better trade chip (for now).
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Not to me
“it is clear that Martel is a much better talent than Outlaw”
by LaoTzu on Aug 3, 2009 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I dont see how you can see it any other way
Honestly. I’m not being baised, I like Outlaw, he had a purpose, but with the way the roster is…I just don’t see him having the same impact on our team. I just really don’t see how you can see it any other way. Would you care to shed light on why you think Outlaw is better?
"Intent is prior to content, the question is, does this generation really want truth?"
"Cogito ergo sum" -Descartes
by Shribby on Aug 3, 2009 2:15 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
All we can say is:
Outlaw is a better creator/handler.
Webster is a better spot shooter.
Other than that, we can argue over who the better rebounder, defender, blocker, runner, culture man, etc. Then we’ll start to sink into terms like “injury prone” & “BBIQ.”
We won’t get anywhere.
Nic is far superior than either of them anyway.
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
by staylost on Aug 3, 2009 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
RT: Outlaw has trade value and Webby doesn't.
not only that, but even more important is their contracts. Travis’ is expiring and that alone makes him a more valuable trade asset then Martell, regardless of their health or offensive production
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Great statement
But it would be a bit much to expect him to have improved his game while rehabbing a foot without being able to stand on it and extrapolate from that game
That’s been bothering me, too.
I was very confident that Martell was about to break out last year, and that game increased my belief.
But part of my confidence was the reports of his hard work, superb conditioning, and increased confidence. All that has to be rebuilt/regained. I don’t think the “break out” Martell is likely to be seen this year. If we see the third year Martell this year, it would be good. That will help us, but it isn’t going to be the main ingredient in our improvement to 72 wins or anything.
Martell could be great next year, but it would be a shock if that happens this year.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
True, we heard about the "breakout" Oden last summer
and all the hype made the not-bad reality look disappointing by comparison.
We're in a tough spot with Martell aren't we?
We have Martell through (at the very least) 2010-2011 with a team option for 2012-2013. Without demonstrating that he’s recovered fully, he will be tough to move this year. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems he’s in Portland for all of 2009-2010. But you know Pritchard is praying he comes back strong. It will give us a ton of options both this season and next in terms of trades. At least he broke his foot before we offered him a contract extension. Can you imagine if he hadn’t? Instead of 5/year, I’m not so sure he wouldn’t have asked for 6-9/year and gotten it somewhere.
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
Sorry, but it's too early to talk about Martell when he hasn't even been cleared to run
and jump on his foot yet. Supposedly that will happen this month, but it was also supposed to happen in April. Wait a month and we should know something worth talking about. Right now we have no idea how well he can play at the start of the season, when he can play at full strength again, or even if he will play again.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 3, 2009 2:28 AM PDT reply actions
As long as Webster gets 100%
heathly, I think that he will be starting by January. Personally I believe that we’d be better off with having Batum come off the bench. Webster is the better shooter and with Blake moving to the second uint, we need better 3pt shooting at the wing positions. But I guess that it won’t really matter who starts as long as it isn’t Outlaw. Since Outlaw has the better trade value, he should be the one to get shipped out. Perhaps we could trade the trout for a backup PF.
Here's a question to establish Martell's value to the team:
If the Blazers had held off signing Martell to an extension, how much, if at all, of a contract would they have offered him after it was clear he wasn’t coming back last year?
I’m guessing not 5 years, $25 million—which sounds pretty cheap if Martell returns to form, but quite a nuisance if he doesn’t. I am moved to wonder if they would have offered him a contract at all, given their depth.
My guess is that if they offered him the same contract, there would be a team option in there somewhere.
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
Good point
Martell is probably very happy that at least he got that contract extension last year before things went down the drain.
Although there is a team option in his new deal, the last year is unguaranteed.
The Blazers owe him $4,344,000 for the coming season; then $4,800,000; $5,256,000; and the unguaranteed $5,712,000 for 2012/13. So technically he has 3 years left on his contract, at a price that is good if the returns to form quickly and even improves, and not a huge millstone around their neck if he doesn’t (with the unguaranteed year, he would be an expiring contract at the 2012 deadline). It was a more cautious contract than what the Blazers offered Turkoglu. Or Miles. Or Z-Bo.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
Can't we use Martell as the 3 pt "gunslinger"
like we used James Jones? – Al least until he is fully back and in BB shape.
If Martell can play James Jones defense...
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
Seems to me that two years ago, Webster was about the best perimeter defender we had. Perhaps Batum is better, but I wouldn’t make the gap between them that wide. Webster is a much better shooter, and Batum doesn’t exactly go cutting through traffic either, his drives are pretty much through wide open lanes, or he looks to pass. Passing is probably where I set Batum apart from Webster. Batum has the ability to set others up. But a scouting report on Martell right now is based on information that is two years old. We really don’t know what we have in him……. and remember how last pre-season it was all about Rudy and Martells supposed “connection” on the court? Why couldn’t Webster back up Batum this year? Whose minutes is he taking?
“Whose minutes is he taking” A: No ones, Outlaw will be playing back up PF this year. Cunningham and Pendergraph won’t play.
Huh?
We wouldn’t draft two big men and then guarantee they won’t play. Travis isn’t a physical presence inside. McMillan has said numerous times that he needs a more physical 4. That’s not Travis Outlaw. With the direction this team is taking, I see Cunningham or Pendergraph getting time. It may not be alot (~ 10 mins/game) but they’ll play, even with Travis on the team.
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
Sure we would, they were second round picks
How much did McRoberts and Taurean play as rookies?
I’d guess that Travis won’t be happy with playing 13 minutes a game at backup PF, but we certainly won’t move him just to clear time for a couple 2nd round picks.
Yeah, Pende & Dante will have to make amazing strides to get in before Travis.
Defense and rebounding is where they’d be most likely to be able to offer something different than Travis.
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
Expiring contracts
Trading productive, well liked, chemistry guys mid-season is not great—especially for playoff teams. Bayless can be traded up until February, but he is a young fella that needs time for development. With Roy, Rudy, and Miller, it’s a strong guard rotation.
Blake and Outlaw—expiring contracts. Beginning of the season, add 2.5 mil or so in cap room from the Euros. Whether it’s preseason or beginning of the season, good value can be brought in for the strongest rotation.
If his foot works, and his shot is falling, Martell will start
It will surely take a while for him to get back to where he was before the injury, but when he has recovered, if his stroke is still there and he hasn’t fallen off defensively, having another guy on the court who can’t be left alone will give Roy and Miller more room to operate off the dribble.
Batum was found money last season. Most of us didn’t expect him to make the team. We were surprised when he was signed last year. We expect to see his in the D league and on the pine. Only with Webster’s injury did the opportunity open up for him to get minutes. But he’s a second year player, and he’s going up against a fifth year guy who was just resigned last summer to play that position. I don’t expect him to be able to beat Webster out for the starting spot in veteran’s camp if Martell is healthy and in game shape.
Outlaw and Batum will back up Webster at the SF spot depending on whether offense or defense is required. I expect Webster to be on a short leash though, if his shot isn’t dropping, he’ll have to work out the misses in practice, not games. This team is on a mission to make the finals this year.
My best guess is, Webster 22 minutes per game, Batum 18, Outlaw 20.
What the heck?
Why are people assuming Webster will start? He hasn’t even been cleared to run, let alone play. I hope he returns to 07/08 form as well but let’s be a little more realistic. He missed (basically) an entire year of basketball. For a guy who is in many ways still a rookie, he’s going to have Gregitis next year. I want him back but I’m doubting he would start at any point next year. The position he plays demands so much athleticism.
Regarding Hedo Türkoğlu:
Look at the bright side, Blazers fans -- you dodged a bullet. He peaked statistically two years ago. He's allegedly 30 but could be closer to 32 or 33 for all we know. (Do you trust Turkish birth certificates? And isn't it weird that he played four years of pro ball in Turkey in the 1990s?)
- Bill Simmons of ESPN.com
Good coaching is exploiting matchups isn't it?
I guess in theory it’s a good “problem” to have…
A dribble-once and shoot scoring threat with Travis.
Full-court defense, and backdoor jams (from Miller lobs) with Batum.
Adequate D and keep-’em-honest spot-up scoring with Martell. (Maybe the foot will get there for some of those mean dunks we saw at FanFest.)
Who matches up best with the personnel on the floor, and the opposing the SF - that’s the real question. IMO. That should be what Sarge is evaluating constantly – before games, during games – you have the resources! Dedicate that ongoing evaluation to Monty.
What’s more is you have lots of fresh legs to throw out there. Not to mention Cunningham…
I don’t know, to me, again, it seems like a good problem. Not like you have 1 starting SF and a huge dropoff in talent with your 2nd choice. A bodyshop guy has a lot of hammers. A chef’s got a lot of knives… A good professional knows how and when to use them all, or has a favorite and the others get used sparingly but effectively.
48 divided by 3
is 16. Give them each a Batum-shift from last year and let’s see what happens. – Elgin
Without you out there, we're nowhere here
I wish I had read this yesterday
Even though I’m commenting at the end of a dead thread:
At the beginning of the article Dave wrote:
Having done this for a number of years now to me it seems like just yesterday that Martell was the franchise’s most promising rookie, destined for stardom.
I really, really disagree with this. Aside from his jump shot Webster didn’t really have anything going for him his first couple of years. We even sent him to the D-league for a couple of months. John Nash drafted him to fill the shooting guard hole we had had for years, and he wasn’t really close to filling it.
A beard on a blind man! Too much, I say.
I am hoping
that Martel will be healthy, run his man around, and take his open shots. If he starts passing his open shots to someone who is covered, this team will not be able to wait for him to get comfortable. Make or miss he has to shoot. If he doesn’t; Rex , Dante, or Penderbender will be worked in to the lineup at his expense.
Rudy Tootie..... I just don't get it
Tweener
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