Go after Kurt Thomas with our trade exemption?
Milwaukee just signed Hakim Warrick and blew some cap space...and they now have about a million 4/5's on their roster.
Bogut/Gadzuric/Johnson/Warrick/Illyrsiac etc.
A vet like Kurt Thomas serves no purpose for them right now, and could help us out a lot as far as adding basketball IQ, toughness in the 2nd unit, and playoff experience. He also might fit the second unit well as he knows how to play on running teams and half-court teams.
He fits well as a backup for Lamarcus with a nice jumper and solid post D (like Lamarcus). By all reports he's a very high character person and teammate. And how much better will our defense look without Outlaw missing rotations and not boxing players out.
Afterwards we could definitely do the Outlaw for Memphis' pick deal...
which would leave us with...
Miller/Blake
Roy/Rudy
Webster/Batum
Aldridge/Thomas
Oden/Pryzbilla
The best frontcourt D in the NBA?
and Bayless/pick combo to trade (for what?)
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not bad
I’d still like the blazers to go after Turiaf. He’s young, tough down low and a quality defender. Let’s see what happens.
by hugetrailblazerfan on Aug 2, 2009 1:25 AM PDT reply actions
Agreed, but Outlaw for Turiaf can't happen until the Euro cap-space is freed up
I also like Jeff Foster of Indy in the “enforcer” role, but the Pacers seem to be more interested in trying to rid themselves of Troy Murphy’s bloated contract
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I like Turiaf better too
How old is Thomas anyway?
Life's short, Stunt it!!
by Irwin Fletcher on Aug 2, 2009 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Kurt Vincent Thomas (born October 4, 1972)
almost 10 years older than Turiaf (January 13, 1983)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Turiaf makes 340k more than Thomas this year, but Kurt's deal is expiring
I’d much rather have Ronny at 4+ mil/year for the next 3 years, and we already know Roy likes him
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
warriors would not surrender turiaf.
particularly for outlaw.
by so ill so d0pe on Aug 2, 2009 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
This is true.
Outlaw may be a better overall player than Turiaf, but Turiaf does a few things the Warriors need very well. Sort of like our Przy…
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
What do you think it would take?
Life's short, Stunt it!!
by Irwin Fletcher on Aug 2, 2009 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
if you have some inside info from the Warrior's perspective, I'd like to hear it
I’m not saying I think they’d like Travis, but I’m wondering why you think Nelson wouldn’t like a player like Outlaw
Or is it that you don’t think they would want to part with Turiaf?
Don has always had a strange taste in big men. I remember back in ‘85-86 with Milwaukee he had 3 centers (Lister, Mokeski and Breuer) who he used almost interchangibly, but as the years have gone by he’s gone completely away from post play and used the draw and kick or P&R offense, exclusively.
Right now he’s got a skinny 6’10 forward (Anthony Randolph) who’s gonna be playing a lot, so maybe Outlaw isn’t the right “fit” for the Warriors…but I can never really tell what Nellie is thinking, or what kind of wacky combination of players that he’ll put on the floor, if he thinks he can gain a matchup advantage.
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Love it.
He’d be a great veteran contributor.
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer.—Dune
Just because I value rebounds and shooting efficiency doesn't mean I want to argue with you for hours about Wages of Wins.
Not a cap guru like some people on here, but I'm pretty sure we have renounced all of our exceptions to get under the cap in order to sign Miller.
I believe in order to get under the cap a team must renounce all exceptions, ie. trade exceptions and the mid-level exception.
by dario argento on Aug 2, 2009 2:38 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
The Bucks would have to buy him out, first
Then very possibly.
We could trade Travis for him straight across, salaries match. I think that would undersell Travis, though, and we should get something more — a highly protected first round pick, maybe?
It would leave us thin at SF unless Martell is ready to go.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Yeah...
We’d need a first round pick, top 3 or 5 protected to make it worth it. And with Mayo and Gay I doubt they’re going to be willing to trade for Travis. Nice thought, but I don’t think it works.
Supposedly
that was on the table and we pulled it off when the Millsap signing didn’t go through (resigning to the fact that we needed to keep Outlaw at backup 4, gross). Memphis has been after him forever, and loves adding gunners, they’re still in the hunt for iverson. How much would you love to watch Iverson/Mayo/Gay/Randolph and Outlaw try to share the ball?
Yeah, except that Mayo and Gay aren't on the Bucks
by BrewDude on Aug 2, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I love Travis and have mixed feelings about his departure
But he is not worth a top 3 to 5 pick.
Roy would probably play at the 3 and Rudy would see more time at the 2
Life's short, Stunt it!!
by Irwin Fletcher on Aug 2, 2009 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
You are right
I think travis is a bit more valuable than that and the Blazers would be smart to wait on Martell’s health. I think we should be targeting someone a bit younger than Thomas. He can’t have more than a couple years left.
Life's short, Stunt it!!
by Irwin Fletcher on Aug 2, 2009 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, with regards to Kurt Thomas, the Houston Rockets would be a great destination for him.
A deal of Thomas to the Rockets for Brian Cook and $3,000,000 in cash considerations should do the trick.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
If we go over the cap
to sign pendergraph and cunningham, do we get our trade exceptions back?
Roy, Aldridge, Oden, Rudy, Batum, Outlaw, Webster, Bayless, Blake, Miller, Joel... Holy crap!
pretty sure not.
once renounced they are gone. i’ve heard the blazers get cap room after the cap holds come off for their eurostash players. which would allow for a somewhat uneven trade again but the diogu / sergio exceptions don’t come back.
the blazers will be able to use their MLE next year though when they are over the cap.
Correct
Any exceptions held by the Blazers were lost or renounced when the team went under the cap to be able to sign Miller. And those exceptions can never be regained.
BTW, the OP’s idea wouldn’t work anyway since Thomas makes $3.8 million this year and the trade exception from the Diogu trade was only $2.9 million.
I'm pretty sure we still have the
Ike Diogu trade exemption. I know we gave up the mid-level one though. The Ike Diogu one is like 2.2 million right, what’s Thomas’ salary?
no, we don't have it
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
KP announced that once the season begins
the Euros salaries were coming off of the cap opening up about 2.5 in space. Wouldn’t the trade exceptions then be given back as well? Why would KP of traded Diogu if he knew he wanted to be under the cap for the summer and the trade exception he was getting would be given up? That trade was part of the trade deadline, wasn’t it?
He thought it might be useful at draft time
It also might have proved useful if, instead of signing a free agent, we had done an unbalanced trade.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Check the ESPN trade machine. It was recently updated with the Miller deal, now both the Sergio and the Diogu exception are gone
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
What is a bit weird is that they don't show the cap space blocked by Darius anymore
Which sites like ShamSports and Storyteller still do. And they neglect the cap holds for the unsigned Euro draft picks. All in all not very accurate numbers in terms of cap space. Should be better again in the offseason.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
it isn't tradeable
and he’s not on the roster so not showing makes perfect sense.
But we get cap space for lopsided trades that we don't have
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
bought out contracts can't be traded
so showing it in the trade machine makes no sense really. the trade machine isn’t intended to show everyone’s total salaries it’s intended to show tradeable assets
When it enables deals that aren't possible and shows us having $7 mil cap space, that renders it pretty useless
It should show up as a contract that can’t be traded. Unless the NBA took it off the books, for which there is no announcement by the NBA or the team. Last year we had Steve Francis on the books, also a contract that can’t be traded since he was bought out and waived. Memphis had a similar contract with Antoine Walker. Etc. Etc.
"I'm addicted to polo y'all...respect my fresh" - Travis25Outlaw
Hmmm. Makes you think, and hope.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
our cap space is wrong
but as i recall bought out contracts have never shown up on the trade machine. miller shows up now but his salary has not been deducted from the portland cap space.
i played with this last year and i’m almost certain steve francis and darius miles did not show up.
The cap space is wrong
only because it doesn’t subtract the $6.7 million used by the Miller signing. Otherwise they have exactly the same number that I do.
I’m assuming they’ll get it updated in the next day or so.
No, he just
always needs the first twenty or so games to get loose and into game form. Besides, he’d be playing about 10 minutes a night here unless foul trouble. We’re really bringing him for instruction, leadership, and vet tips for the guys.
could we....?
trade travis for a back up 4 like turiaf or thomas and then sign bruce bowen to the vet min
I like the idea but
Bowen would want minutes,(whatever he had in mind) and if Batum and Webster are healthy then there are very few if any for him. He is going to want his minutes or coat-tail for a championship. I don’t see the Blazers as a coat-tail team like the Celtics/Cavs/Mavs/Spurs/Lakers. The Blazers already are deep, young, have length, match-up well to most teams and not fully developed like the Celtics, Mavs, Spurs, Cavs,. Bowen’s presence would bring defense, toughness and experience but he might not get used enough and would that create issues?
Bowen is considering retirement if he doesn't get more than the veteran minimum
http://twitter.com/NBA_Rumors_news
Now that Monty Williams knows he isn’t going to the T-Wolves, will he lobby for his old friend Bruce to join the Blazers? Nate’s a vacation now, so I doubt there will be any acquisitions for the next couple of weeks, unless he already signed off on the deal before leaving town?
And since the Blazers don’t have an exception, it’s hard to see how they could scrounge up enough $ to interest a veteran FA at this point in time. I think the roster is “locked in” until the Euo-holds come off of the cap-space this fall. I do expect a mid-season trade, with Travis being the odd-man out, his expiring contract plus the Euro hold money means KP could acquire a backup PF who’s making just over 6 mil$ in return
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Aug 2, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
solid thinking
Maybe sooner. But it’s hard to say who goes. I don’t see trading Travis. What he does is special. In both sense, yes, but the dude finished off the Celtics when BRoy was out. Back early in the season when the Celtics were just tearing it up. He puts the ball in the air like he just don’t care. Whatever Travis is, he is not chopped liver.
big men depth and the playoffs
No, Travis isn’t chopped liver, and KP will get good value for him when (not if) it comes time to make a deal. Ask yourself this:
If Hedo had decided to play for Portland, where would that have left Outlaw?
Or if Utah had decided not to match on Millsap?
Jon Givony had a rumor that if Millsap’sffer hadn’t been matched that Portland would’ve dealt Outlaw to Memphis for a draft choice. Evidently the Griz like his game
Nate said several times last week that one of the offseason goals was to add a banger. I don’t think he’s satisfied that a “rookie” (Pend) will be that #4 big man
Let’s say there’s an injury to Greg or Joel, who plays backup center? LMA? OK (I’m not happy about that) but then who plays the “extra” PF minutes? Travis or Pendergraph? That’s not good enough for a contending team, not to my way of thinking
When the playoffs roll around and Greg and/or Joel get into early foul trouble, will Outlaw or one of the rookies give Nate solid post play and rebounding? Against teams like San Antonio or Denver? Really?
A midseason deal for a veteran PF is a necessity, #25 is KP’s best “expendable” asset who plays at a position of depth, and by then we should know how Webster’s foot is doing
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
tearing it up?
that was the worst road trip of the year for the celtics. they were playing like butt.
I'd still think it is unlikely that we get Bowen,
But this shows that there is some sense in the whole idea happening.
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
the nba will be a better place if he retires.
bowen is a dirtbag. he’s attempted to injure other players dozens of times and some day hopefully karma will come around for him. i sure as heck don’t want him on my team.
some people say “guy you hate when he’s on the other team but love when he’s on yours”. sorry i’ll hate this guy no matter what team he’s on. i can’t think of a current nba player i dislike more.
how many of us
haven’t visualized kicking wally szczerbiak in the face?
be honest now ;^)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Bowen
I just can’t stand the guy. Maybe if he was a blazer it would be different…maybe
Life's short, Stunt it!!
by Irwin Fletcher on Aug 2, 2009 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't we have a little cap space left?
Couldn’t we just use that to trade for him? Uneven trade. No exception required. I’m on board. He’s the kind of player we need at the 4.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
Probably this is what we could do.
(We have zero exceptions everybody. to sign a player with cap space requires you to relinquish them ALL.)
We have some cap space left so that is maybe something we are working with?
*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.
I think you mean Kenny Thomas.
Kurt Thomas is still in great shape.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Outlaw fans like me frown upon this
he’s surely worth more than a pick. He is great at getting his own shot and he’s clutch. You can’t teach that! I wouldn’t mind Kurt but I don’t think we have room on the roster for him.
We need a back-up PF who is a wide body to finish this out
Someone to come in and bang on both ends.
We will get more salery cap room when the season starts
after petteri kopenenen and alike come off the books. If we wait til the season starts then we still get to hold the rights to these guys. This is good because it gives us flexability for an uneven trade. I think we should wait a couple months into the season so we can let the roster work its way out. Work out if there are any injuries. Let the rookies show what they can do. Let martell and the young guys show what they can do. Then after playing for a couple months we will know what the glaring weakness is for this team. At that point we can trade outlaw and or bayless and go get a backup PF or go get a new starting SF. I always thought the biggest needs for this team is a good starting point guard (done with Miller) and we also need an enforcer. A player like dennis rodman to come off the bench and set a standard.
If we dont make a trade into the season I would say that the team is sitting well with no weaknessess. Oh and one more thing I think Daunte Cunningham is better fit for this team than outlaw so please please TRADE OUTLAW!!!
Cunningham better than Outlaw
WHAT A JOKE, hahahahahaaaaahhhaaaahhahahahaaahha
by Planet29 on Aug 2, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
reading comprehension please?
He said better fit, not better/more talented player. And I definitely agree – his style is much better for our team’s needs, and give Dante a couple years and he could be a nice solid bench player. Lower risk, lower reward than Outlaw.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
by austinpwnz on Aug 2, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Travis high risk style is what makes him so great on a team like this.
This is a team where even the superstar often avoid taking risky shots like the plague.
Obviously, you live by the high risk shot and you die by it, but Travis is a welcome renegade in my mind.
I heart taxes.
what about bruce bowen
i think we could do better, but its a thought
We're trying to finish the roster with a back-up PF
That’s all we need. Bowen in nice, but he is another SF. Pendergraph can’t be expected to be ready yet.
Trade Outlaw to Memphis for there 2010 1st round pick
and use the cap space to get a decent backup PF (Glen Davis) and the pick to Drft Cole aldrich in 2010 (to replace Pryz)
Draft Cole Aldrich 2010
That rumor had to be phony. If Memphis was willing to trade its UNPROTECTED 1st pick
for Travis we would have already done the deal. It would probably be a top 3-4 pick in the draft. We would then be $5.9M under the cap once the season starts. Even if we didn’t want to keep the draft pick we could have traded it with the cap space to get someone much better than Travis. You might even get Rubio for that pick plus Bayless (although I’m not a big Rubio fan, KP might be). There would be many possibilities. So I don’t believe the rumor was ever true, or the pick was going to be top-10 protected or something like that, else we would have done the deal regardless of the Turk or Millsap offers.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions
the rumor I saw
said “draft pick”, with very little details. Memphis would be fools to make it unprotected. I highly doubt it was.
How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009
right
Givony wasn’t specific, even the Griz wouldn’t be so dumb to hand over their #1 for Trav. But he did say that Memphis was disappointed that the deal fell through, so at least we know that Outlaw has one “suitor” (just north of Starksville, too. My how convenient…)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
So...
David Lee
Ronnie Turiaf
Sheldon WIlliams
In that order. Sheldon would be a distant third for me would have to come cheap. Who else is out there that is a real possibility?
David Lee would be perfect in my opinion. He can play either the 4 or 5 and brings the type of hustle we need. I honestly haven’t been up on trade the last couple days lately but from the comments I have seen he is still a possibility later on in a sign and trade right?
Turiaf would be great as long as he is aquired by some combination of Outlaw, Bayless and/or future picks. I love how hard he plays. I am afraid we may have to overpay for him though.
As I said above, I think Thomas is just a little old to give up a young talent like Outlaw.
Life's short, Stunt it!!
Lee is going to get a 9-10 mil/year contract
To make a deal KP would probably have to combine Outlaw and Przybilla and I want to add toughness to the roster, and you don’t do that by dealing Joel
Turiaf is making about 500k more than Outlaw, so adding Rex to that deal will push it to 1.5 mil more than GS can handle, and I suspect you don’t want Belinelli coming back to “even things out”
I don’t know much about Shelden Williams, other than he’s 6’9/250 and played at Duke. He made a little more than Turiaf (last year) but he’s a FA so I’m not sure what his 09-10 contract will be…maybe a sign and trade with the Wolves? (They don’t seem to need another PF, but they might be interested in Outlaw) Williams isn’t the playoff savvy vet that I really have in mind, though…
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Lee and the Blazers have already met. He doesn't want to come here...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
not unless a starting role was opened up
and that’s not happening. I think his agent was more interested in Portland’s cap-space to faciliate a deal, until Miller was signed
and that’s OK with me, I like Aldridge and Oden as a starting PF/C combo for the next 10 years just fine. I could see a way to make Millsap’s PT “work” with the other 3 bigs, but not Lee
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
ummm...
“who else is out there that is a real possibility” was meant to be a real question. Didn’t mean to make it sound like there are no other options.
Life's short, Stunt it!!
our backup powerforward...
is going to play 15 minutes a game. we have outlaw who can slide over when necessary. i don’t see how it’s a priority at all.
the whole ‘we need a rebounder’ is silly given the blazers were the best rebounding team in the league last year.
by colinmarsh on Aug 2, 2009 3:41 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
We must have a good veteran backup 4-5. Someone to play if GO, Joel, or LMA gets hurt.
I don’t want to see LMA playing big minutes at center, and that will likely happen if GO or Joel gets hurt. Travis would be a disaster playing big minutes starting at PF, and that would happen if LMA is hurt. The rookies are not an option in case of injury. We MUST have a veteran PF. Outlaw + cap space + possibly another asset will be traded for a PF when the season starts, when we will be $2.3M under the cap again.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
trading away our 24 yr old 6th man and 3rd leading scorer
that played 28 minutes a game, for a 37 yr old back-up power forward that would see 10 minutes a game tops, makes no sense.
I am all for getting a guy like that, just not for anything other than a very low free agent contract.
I have come to terms with the fact that we are going to go into the season with Travis at the back up 4, I just see coaching/management telling Outlaw those minutes are his, and this veteran PF of the Thomas mold is going to ride the pine like Shav and only be used in case of injury
by Peteyhasnohead on Aug 2, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
RT: I just see coaching/management telling Outlaw those minutes are his
That’s part of the problem, though. Assuming Webster is healthy and there’s no injury to one of the other forwards, Outlaw will go from playing 25-30 minutes a game to playing 12-15 behind LMA. Something’s gotta give because as nice as Travis is he’s not going to enjoy that role
This is another reason why I see a deal coming before February, Outlaw for a veteran PF/C who won’t mind playing short minutes, and then (probably) get more minutes in the playoffs
Not another Ruffin, Shav, etc. Someone like Turiaf or Jeff Foster who brings experience and 6 hard fouls to the position
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Exactly.
It has to be 4-5, as opposed to an undersized PF only. He has to be able to play 10-12 minutes behind LMA nightly with consistent quality, and be able to fill in 25-28 minutes for a couple of weeks (hopefully not longer) if GO/LMA/Joel is injured.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions
everybody thought it would be "easy" to find a banger
heading into the offseason I heard names like “Bass” and “McDyess” but I knew that KP would have a tough sell to get a FA like that to come to Portland for “this” kind of role. You’re really looking for a veteran who’s not washed up but who also isn’t going to complain about his minutes, either. That’s not an easy cat to find
The old Celtics used to add a couple of vets to their roster like this every couple of years (I was reminded of this after to listening to some Johnny Most highlights on Comcast this afternoon—gotta love ‘em!) Red would sign a guy who had 1-2 good years left and then flash his shiney rings in front of their eyes and get them to sign for cheap and then ride ’em hard until they broke down. Then he’d go get another vet (Bailey Howell, etc) and keep bringing them off the bench to play good fundamentals and give his starters a blow.
Sure, the league has changed since then but there will always be a place for 30+ year old veterans who have already made their money and just want to play for a winner before they have to call it quits. It’s not easy to sign these guys away from the other contending teams, though, and the Blazers (for as good as they are) aren’t as close to the championship as some other teams are, at least not yet. Iif we had gotten past Houston this would’ve been another story…)
So it’s going to take a surgical strike from KP and he’ll have to target the right player who’s on a team that’s going nowhere this winter and who’s GM likes Outlaw’s game. Not easy, but it’s doable—especially if that veteran PF/C isn’t making much more than 6mil$ this year. (I don’t think KP wants to throw in Bayless unless it’s absolutely necessary, because then he’d need to go get another guard for injury insurance and as a practice player, as well as admit he was “wrong” about his most recent lottery pick)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Agreed on all points.
It would be great to find just such a FA vet, but McDyess went to SA, which is a perfect example of going to team that he thinks can still win it all. Right now we can only get one of the perfect fit guys via a trade.
Outlaw plus cap space should get a good, youngish, 30+ year old vet, but Outlaw plus cap space plus another young asset named Bayless might loosen up something even better, which would be a late 20’s, slower-blooming PF/C that could possibly replace Joel when the time comes. That is worth looking for too.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
late 20’s, slower-blooming PF/C that could possibly replace Joel when the time comes.
Not for me, Nate and KP like Joel and I don’t think he’s walking away from PDX after he agreed to stick around the last time. I know it’s going to be hard to pay him and Blake (as well as those near-max salaries to the core players) but I think they’ll accept “fair” offers to “ride the Roy train” all the way to the championship station.
A more-likely scenario is for KP to deal Travis and a proven-to-be-completely-healthy Martell (and the cap-space) for a studly SF who could also play some 4 in a pinch. This would be consistent with Portland’s pursuit of Turk, and KP could parlay over 10 mil with those 3 assets
I still like the “simpler” route the best, though. Travis and the Euro-space for a banger like Turiaf or Foster. I think Webster and Bayless are keepers, at least for awhile, anyway
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I guess I wasn't clear.
Joel isn’t going anywhere. I’ve written that here many times.
I’m talking about the possibility (just the possibility) that with Bayless added into a trade you might get a younger PF/C (late 20’s instead of early to mid 30’s) that is still blooming – as good now as the 30+ vet that has already peaked, but still getting better. In 3 years, when time and injuries finally start catching up with Joel, the younger PF/C will be only 30 years old and ready to assume the role of #3 Big on the team, whereas in 3 years an older 30+ PF might be ready for retirement.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
joel is essentially a FA after the season
the idea that he’s “not going anywhere” seems a bit of an overstatement. you may suspect that he won’t be traded this offseason but his days with the team are very likely numbered.
he may well be able to get more than 7 million if he opts out.
with the way the salary cap is shrinking in 2010
I don’t think anyone can accurately handicap what Joel may or may not be worth next summer to another team
I’m going to base my Przy-speculation on past behavior. Joel already had an opportunity to walk away from the one team that gave him a chance when no one else would and he chose not to sign with a contender like Detroit or San Antonio several years ago. Now he’s on a team that is going places and he’s suddenly going to opt out and look for greener pastures elsewhere? Uh-huh
There “could be” a scenario where another contender makes a “Millsap-like” toxic offer for Przy that Portland decides they can’t match, but knowing “what Joel is” as a player and where the NBA’s economy is headed, what are the odds?
I don’t think KP is going to let it happen, he’s going to make JP a fair offer before things get that far, and Przy will stay in P-town to “finish” what he started
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I don't think Joel's days here are numbered at all.
I believe Joel wants to stay here, as he did previously when he was a FA. It is an ideal situation for him. He knows his abilities and is very good at what he does. The fans love and appreciate his play. But I think he knows that he isn’t going to be getting better as he ages. If he goes somewhere else for really big money there will be new and higher expectations placed on him. I think he will appreciate that playing fewer minutes in Portland as GO gets better will also prolong his career, meaning more money long term. i.e. for Joel life is good, why screw it up?
I think he and Blazers will come to a reasonable agreement for his services. But if he finally does opt out, I believe it will just be to get some leverage for a higher salary from the Blazers. The lower salary cap in 2010 should keep the offers reasonable, I expect he will “allow” the Blazers to match any offers he gets. Unless we make some home run deal for Outlaw to get a better PF/C at a similar or younger age, I believe the Blazers will “match” any reasonable offer that Joel can get elsewhere and he will agree to stay.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions
with Joel's injury history
I don’t think it’s likely that he’ll have as consistently impressive a year next year as this year. Which might mean he doesn’t want that to be his “contract year” and he’ll stick around. Hard to say.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Who is this mythical team willing to pay a 32 year old Joel
more than $7 million a year. He does a lot of things well, but he’s not exactly Ben Wallace circa 2006 who was coming off 2 straight DPOYs, 5 straight all-defense selections, and 5 straight all-NBA teams. Joel’s very underrated, and in an economy like previous years, maybe he’d snag an offer like that, but he’s not going to transform a team, especially with teams learning from Big Ben’s debacle with his contract.
Even Anderson Varejao, whose contract should be seen as an absolute ceiling for Joel’s is getting paid under $7 million next year. Joel may opt out and get more total money, but I can’t imagine he’ll be getting a raise on the last year salary he earned last year. He’d probably be looking at something more like the full MLE deal that Dallas gave Diop a couple years ago.
Will that up-and-coming 27-29 year-old PF/C
be content playing 12-15 mpg behind LMA, and what is his contract status?
(It’s a nice idea, hypothetically, but you’re looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack kind of situation. I’m going to need a “name” to comment any further on that possibility)
Greg’s going to play more and Joel will get less PT as time goes by. Przy keeps himself in pretty good shape and he could be productive for another 4-5 years as a backup C. So I don’t think it’s necessary to go looking for his replacement in the near future. After Brandon/LMA get their extensions signed, it might be a good idea to approach Steve and Joel about “fair” contract extensions, however.
I observe that job security is important to everyone, these days
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
My original point was
simply that Outlaw plus cap space should be enough to get us a 30+ backup PF/C that we both want, but if there was something even better, i.e. a younger version of an equally talented backup PF/C with perhaps some additional upside, then adding Bayless would not be too steep of price to pay. I agree with your point that it might be “looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack” – and I commented earlier that it was just a possibility, but it “is worth looking for too”.
Improbable … yes, and I accept your skepticism. I’ll retreat now and go work on a trade for CP3.
I’m a huge Joel fan so I hope he can continue to play at a high level for 4-5 more years, and hopefully fewer and fewer minutes will be necessary because Greg gets better. I’m just a little worried he may wear down a quicker than some big guys because of his style of play (basically that would be jumping into the highway in front of oncoming trucks).
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
I don’t want a huge ‘impact’ player at 4/5 with Oden, Aldridge, and Pryz there, I want some vets to fill out our roster, not miss their rotations, and help move the ball around.
I would love to trade Outlaw/Bayless for a high future draft pick(s) or someone like Rubio (if he signs and has to wait two years to come over his value will drop), and fill out the roster with high character vets like Thomas and Desmond Mason.
Miller/Blake/Koponen
Roy/Fernandez
Webster/Batum/Mason
Aldridge/Thomas/Cunningham
Oden/Pryzbilla
Outlaw has to go for a multitude of reasons.
1) We need SF minutes to develop Batum.
2) We need SF minutes for Rudy(on offense)/Roy(on defense) to get Rudy 28-30 minutes a game.
3) We need SF minutes for Martell (hopefully he can come back from the injury).
i.e. there are no SF minutes left for Outlaw.
4) There’s only 10-12 minutes at PF for Outlaw when LMA is resting, and perhaps a couple minutes if we go small with LMA at center. We did that some last year, but if things go as expected with Oden we won’t do it near as much, if at all, this year.
5) He can’t play backup center, which we will need if Joel or Oden goes down, and he would kill us matching up against strong PF’s for extended minutes if LMA has to fill in as backup center in the event of a GO/Joel injury.
i.e. there are only a few regular minutes at PF for Outlaw, and he’s not the 4-5 we need in case of injuries.
6) Outlaw is like Z-Bo without rebounds and with less points. He won’t rebound (it’s so pathetic our announcers make embarrassing bets with him about his lack of effort to get rebounds, which he always loses BTW), he takes poor shots instead of passing the ball to the open 3-pt shooter (which is often Rudy standing wide open), and his defense is awful. Just like Z-Bo we will get better without him.
7) Outlaw was necessary when this team only relied on Roy and LMA as scoring threats. Now we are loaded with scoring threats. We have Rudy, GO (who will get the ball down low from Miller this year), Miller, Blake (a much better 3-pt option than Travis), hopefully Martell, and even Batum should be a better scorer this year (and take the ball to the hole, which Outlaw could but never does). We simply don’t need Travis to go one-on-one anymore. It’s time he goes to a team that wants his scoring without rebounding, passing, or defense.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Good summary
but the other side of the coin is that KP will tell Nate to “keep feeding” minutes to Travis until the trade is completed, to keep his trade value from dropping more than it already has
Fortunately, Dean Demo said (on Talkin’ Ball the other night) that the Blazers were still getting lots of calls about Outlaw this offseason, so here’s hoping that…
1) fall camp and preseason come and go and Martell’s foot is fully recovered and he looks like he did in the first half against Sacramento, last September
2) one of those teams who are “interested” in Trout will still have a hole at SF and they also have an “extra” veteran big man who has a salary under 6 mil that they are willing to deal
3) then KP will pull the trigger just as soon as he has those Euro-holds off of his cap-space
The longer the wait, the messier this situation could get…but of course if Martell can’t go (or if another forward gets hurt in pre-season) then all bets are off, and KP will look like a genius for not “dumping” Travis back in July ;^)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Yep, expect the unexpected. There are no 5-year plans in the NBA.
I think you agree that we must go for it this year. We probably won’t get to the finals this season or next season, but the time to start going for it is now. A twist of a knee – and Roy or GO may be lost for a year, or forever. There isn’t always a tomorrow, tomorrow in sports. Sometimes it can take 13 years (1977 to 1990) or 20 years (1992 to ??) to get to the next tomorrow. It’s time to get the playoff experience we need now, to lose if we must, but do it in the 2nd round or the WCF. And who knows, a Kobe twisted knee, a dropped pass on a fast break, or just a funny bounce off the rim, and you are in finals slightly ahead of your time.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that's a given
based on what Paul Allen said after the season, and following KP’s attempt to sign Turk and Millsap
OTOH, you still don’t want to completely “give up” on developing a kid like Bayless, especially when you have him under contract for the next 2 years.
(Don’t get me wrong, acquiring Miller was the right thing to do, because of Andre’s experience and it also will mean less PT for Blake who really shouldn’t be a starting PG on a contending team.)
But Bayless could eventually be “another Billups” and you don’t want to find that out after you’ve included him in a deal “just” to add another 2+ mil to get a backup PF/C. Not unless you’re sure that the veteran big man you’re getting is going to be the “final” piece, and you’re pretty confident that you could get “another Bayless” picking 25-30 in the draft (or using a MLE) next year
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I'm going to play devils advocate here and make some counter points
even though I dont even know if I believe what I’m typing, I just here those same things and thought I’d offer up something different
1.) We are past playing anyone for the sake of development, if you aren’t the best option to help us win now, you won’t see as many minutes for the sake of the future. He also isn’t the answer when we need offense out of the position, or a good of a fit in the 2nd unit without anyone that can create for him
2..) Rudy could play some minutes at 2 while Roy plays some 1, not as likely with Miller and Blake splitting minutes, I pretty much completely agree with you on this point though
3.) Martell does need minutes but he has to earn them, it’s a bad deal for him to lose your spot because of injury but everyone else has developed chemistry with each other, I really hope he is a very nice surprise and comes out a man on a mission and gives us a big boost at sf
He will have a good portion of the sf minutes to play with 2nd unit
6.) He is not like Z-Bo in the fact that Outlaw is a team player, he is the 3rd scoring option for the team and comes off the bench, he isn’t expected to put up huge stats and carry the team. his role is to be a scorer off the bench and that’s what he does and thats really about all he does (I can’t handle watching him play D though, expecially when he constantly tries to run through pics)
7.) We still don’t have enough guys that can create their shot, we do need his one-on-one abilities, he has been pretty clutch too, except for the playoffs where he was the furthest thing from clutch
With all his deficiencies, their is still a role for a gunner coming off the bench just looking to score, but a much minor of a role than he’s been getting
by Peteyhasnohead on Aug 2, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
RT: We still don’t have enough guys that can create their shot
I think Andre Miller is going to render Outlaw’s bench-scoring role obsolete. Not just because Miller is a more-efficient scorer than Travis, but because he can find the open man and help “connect the dots” with the other players on the floor. Andre’s passing will improve Rudy’s offense, as well get easier baskets for Greg, Joel, Webster and Batum.
The reason Outlaw is “like” Z-bo is because he gets tunnel-vision when the ball is passed to him. It’s pretty safe to say that over 80% of the time that Travis is passed the ball on the wing he will shoot it, after 2 dribbles or less.
Trout’s game is suited for a non-contending team that needs offense off the bench, not for a veteran team that has championship aspirations
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
if LMA gets seriously injured
your season goes in the tank anyway, back up PF or not. the same is true of brandon roy. the blazers do not need to add any more players. that need to consolidate if anything.
that's mostly because there's no one to take his role.
We have better replacement players at every other position.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
one more quality big man
You’re not really say that the Blazers shouldn’t be looking to add a backup PF several weeks after they made a toxic offer to Paul Millsap, are you?
Not all injuries are season-ending, there are plenty of “dings and tweaks” that will keep a player out of action for a couple of weeks. As of today the Blazer 4-5 positions are 6 deep with 4 veterans and 2 rookies That’s just too thin, especially when one of those veterans (Outlaw) and one of the rookies (Cunningham) are both too skinny to defend the post adequately against an average NBA PF.
Now, the Blazers “could” go out and fill their remaining 2 roster spots with practice fodder like Ruffin or Shav, or they could do as you’re suggesting and “consolidate” by dealing one of their “extra” 3-4 tweeners for a veteran PF/C and acheive better roster balance. Then, if LMA were to tweak his groin/hammy maybe the team wouldn’t go into a 2-week tailspin trying to “get by” with Outlaw or one of the rookies filling those PF minutes, and maybe they could afford to let LMA take an extra couple of days off doing rehab without feeling like they have to rush him back?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
At what point to we go over the cap.
I figure with resignin of roy / aldridge next year we will probably to over the cap. So I think the idea this year is to stay within the cap…but at the trade deadline if we are really good could it be possible to add a player needed to go over the top but also go over the cap??
it is nice to have a full roster full of studs
in the past we had guys like randolph, on the end of the bench, now we have guys like cunningham bayless, and batum to fill out the 15 man roster.
Batum's in our top 8 or 9 rotation
Book it.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
Do your homework and use your euro holds and space to sign Powe after season starts
Work him in after the all star break.
I actually wouldn't mind that
but he’s getting offers right now, and Portland hasn’t been mentioned as a team who’s interested in Leon (i.e. he’ll be “gone” before that Euro money is available, and he’ll probably get more than 2.3mil to “rehab” from someone else who still has an exception)
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
If we wanted to sign a backup PF
then why draft two PF’s? It suggests that Travis’ scoring is more than enough to justify keeping him for now. I was one of those fans calling for a banger but I’m convinced Oden, Webster and Andre Miller make more than a minor upgrade. This team is really deep, really tough, and can go all the way without a new backup banger PF. If we happen to trade for one before the deadline I believe it will be a quality guy like Turiaf and not a broken down player like K. Thomas.
They were the best available players, which is what KP always drafts.
I doubt either one will be in the league once their rookie contracts run out.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions
As some sub-threads were discussing above
We need a backup PF/C in case of a GO, Joel or LMA injury – someone playing 12-15 minutes who is capable of 20-28 worst case.
You can measure skill and talent with your eyes, but productivity is shown through statistics.
turiaf is a banger?
he’s a terrible rebounder for both a center and a power forward. his rebounding rate is the same as channing frye’s and behind LaMarcus.
he plays with a ton of energy and he has a nice all around game but i don’t see him filing the traditional “banger” role as most people know it.
Yeah, Ronny Turiaf is more of a shot blocking specialist at the backup center position. As a result, ...
he and the Golden State Warriors are a perfect match. That, by the way, is why there’s little to no chance the Warriors will trade him elsewhere.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Trade Exemption
Does anyone else ever wonder what a “trade exemption” is?
Disclaimer: everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazersedge.
It's the thing that we don't have any more, but ...
about 10 people here want to use every day. Actually, that’s a “trade exception”. There is no such thing as a “trade exemption”.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 2, 2009 11:57 PM PDT up reply actions
If I trade away a player with a $4M salary and take back a player with a $1M salary,
then I have a $3.1M trade exception (i.e. the difference between what I traded and got back plus $100K). That means I can acquire another player for $3M more than what I trade away during the next 1 year period, even though I’m over the salary cap. If you go under the salary cap at any time in the year then you lose any trade exceptions (and all other cap exceptions) that you had. That’s why we no longer have any trade exceptions this year. Note: to do the initial trade above the other team had to be at least $3M under the cap, or have a $3M trade exception if they were over the cap. There’s all kinds of special rules pertaining to trade exceptions, so this is just the basic concept.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Aug 3, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions
the all-to-convenient pomel horse in the village square
that was about the corniest movie ever made
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Didn't your town have a pommel horse?
I’m sure there was one in Cedar Mill when I was growing up…oh wait, Cedar Mill doesn’t have a ‘village square’.
What about we trade
Cunningham, Pendergraph and some cash for Dejuan Blair? Or would the Spurs want more? ;)
I wouldn't do it
As I watched the Portland – SA game in Summer League, Jeff and Dante as a pair clearly outplayed Blair. I’d even argue that Jeff himself was just as productive as Blair.
Also, the Spurs only played Blair in every other game. He wasn’t ‘injured’ but my guess is that he needed that rest between games. In light of the health concerns surrounding him, that raises a big red flag.
My favorite thing ever said by a broadcaster was said about Kurt Thomas when he was a knick
I can’t remember who said it but the line was,“This Kurt Thomas. This is a weird guy.” . And that was it, it was left totally unqualified. Every time I see him I think of that line.
by Tyler Durrden on Aug 3, 2009 9:41 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I still want to know
why we ever traded ike diagu, maybe he was bad for chemistry or nate didn’t really like him, but I walways thought he gave us some good toughness and didn’t command the ball too much, considering how we havn’t found a back up power forward, Ike doesn’t look that bad
Don't trade Travis
He’s the third best to fifth best 6th man in the league
"Good, Better, Best, never let it rest until your good is your better and your better is your best." Tim Duncan

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