Why does everyone want Hinrich? What am I not seeing? He just looks to me like a more expensive Blake. Decent but not great at any facet of the game. Tell me why I'm wrong.
almost 3 years ago
David Piper
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http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/7/7/941087/blake-v-hinrich-pt-24-the-contracts
Truth never was or can be propagated by fire and sword - Albert Gallatin
Thx - for remembering - I got 224 votes, & 70+ comments
But couldn’t buy a single rec?! These 35 words get 5 recs, and counting counting. Color me jealous – I guess I need to take a more controversial stand! How about Hinrich for Blake as the only move of the season? I’m a little confused as to whether it would work or not, RealGM.
The Blazers would enter the season at $57.4M, in salaries, prior to signing our third string, second-rounders, and may decide to go with only a 13 man roster while continuing to shop Outlaw/ evaluate the backup PF position. I like the symmetry of the below depth chart, which lists each player roughly by minute allocation.
GUARDS: Roy, Hinrich, Fernandez, Bayless, Mills, (Koponen, overseas)
FORWARDS: Aldridge, Webster, Batum, Outlaw, Cunningham, (Claver, overseas)
CENTER: Oden, Przybilla, Pendergraph, (Freeland, overseas)
by Mad Matt the Road Warrior on Jul 8, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Hinrich, according to theory, would fit our system and our needs.
Plays like Blake on offense, which the team is used to. Although adds a midrange game which Blake lacked. Major bump in defense, which was a glaring weakness. The fact that he’s coming off the bench doesn’t mean a lot when it’s Derrick Rose who took his starting spot. And his contract is fairly reasonable for a starting PG, the cost of which declines each year.
μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.
The added defense
Would save Oden a foul or two a game.
That’s worth the bump in price as far as I’m concerned.
by TheThinWhiteDuke on Jul 8, 2009 11:27 AM PDT reply actions
My question is does anyone have an idea of what Nate thinks of him?
he coached him on the FIBA team
Draft Cole Aldrich 2010
Ive been wondering the same thing since theses Kirk wishes started popping up.
Bee, on tha loook. out fore !!!! tha grammar po-lease.
hear, hear!
The guy might be a nice addition, but he is nowhere close to the missing championship link. I see a moderate upgrade at best.
Bring back the Uncle Cliffy!
Hinrich Fights through Screens on the Perimeter
Name one Blazer that did that last year! If you watched the games last year you would have seen the frustration of Oden and our bigs having to switch the Pick and Roll to defend the perimeter because our guards couldnt fight through the picks. This lead to the early foul trouble of Oden especially and Pryz.
and mike rice tells people to like him
and there is the masses of people that dont think for themselves.
fire nate before its too late
pahlees
BE was well on board the hinrich bandwagon well before MR. People were talking about Hinrich before the 07/08 trade deadline.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Jul 8, 2009 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions
That makes no sense whatsoever.
1. I’m easily one of Kirk Hinrich’s biggest fans.
2. I absolutely abhor Mike Rick with a fervent passion.
3. I’m possibly the most free-thinking poster at Blazersedge.
Hinrich
Slightly better on offense, huge upgrade on defense that can disturb even the most elite scorers .
Patience :)
Also
He would really make the transition to Jerryd Bayless a lot easier for our teams short term success, rather then standing pat with Blake as the starter.
Patience :)
by TheGreatDane17 on Jul 8, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Does anyone have any stats on how Kirk defended the quick, young point guards?
I would really like to see some, cuz I ain’t buying it yet.
by BlazerFanFromDenver on Jul 8, 2009 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
not stats...but if you watched bulls vs celtics
hinrich frustrated the hell out of rondo so much that rondo threw him into a table.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Jul 8, 2009 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions
haha yea totally
He was so frustrated he only went off for an average of 19.4 points per game. Well below his average of 11.9. He also threw off his assist averages getting 11.6 instead of his normal 8.2.
Rondo’s numbers against Chicago in the post-season:
Game Number Assists Points
1 7 29
2 16 19
3 6 20
4 11 25
5 11 28
6 19 8
7 11 7
Per ESPN
Rondo torched Hinrich. Just absolutely and completely. And this is a guy with a weak offensive game.
JAWESOME!!
?
Kirk wasn’t guarding Rondo for most of the series. He was guarding Pierce and/or Allen to make up for Rose and Gordon’s terrible defense.
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
okay so he was thrown to the table by Rondo, because he wasn't guarding him?
And Paul Pierce had an above average series as well
Pts
1 23
2 18
3 24
4 29
5 26
6 22
7 20
Averaging 23 points.
Ray Allen also average just over 23 points well above his average with his numbers being:
1 4
2 30
3 18
4 28
5 10
6 51
7 23
Man I am just pointing out that saying “he can guard quick pg’s” is something he can’t or doesn’t do. And if he doesn’t do it why? And what does everyone seem to be basing this info on, because every thing I can find shows that quick PG’s consistently light him up.
And the only severe Achilles heal with our team is that we can’t guard quick PG’s (JJ Barea, and Aaron Brooks anyone?) and if Hinrich can’t either than why get him?
JAWESOME!!
What you aren't allowing for is that Kirk was only one of 4 defenders on those guys
And of the other 3, Derrick is still a downright lousy defender, John Salmons had a groin injury, and Ben Gordon had a hamstring injury for the last several games. Kirk did not play any one guy consistently, partly because the Bulls switch too much on offense and partly because Vinny would move him onto guys who were hot to slow them down. It was like that all season.
Not to mention, you can’t judge perimeter defense entirely by looking at another guy’s offensive stats. Great offensive players get theirs, but you’re still better off with a defender that slows them down, challenges shots, and pushes them out of their comfort zone. Plus, offense does not depend entirely on defense – we see guys hit crazy shots all the time against stifling defense, and we see guys throw up bricks when they’re wide open.
If you watched Kirk at all this season, he played very good defense in spite of playing on a team with virtually no defensive scheme and quite a few lousy man defenders.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
I need to see a single point where he slowed or stopped a quick pg to believe this though
I saw him get burned by Rondo on drive, by Pierce on Pull-ups, and go sailing past Ray Allen as he nailed a jumper. At some point he must have defended one of these guys right, so at least one of these guys should have gotten under their average.
And I mean to be a point guard defender he must have done something at some point to stop a good fast point guard right?
Barea dropped 20 on him.Box Score
Aaron Brooks dropped 18.Box Score
Chris Paul dropped 29(I’m not hating on that no one can stop Paul) Box Score
Devin Harris dropped 42 on him Box Score and 14 (have we found the one time he stopped someone?? Box Score
Jose Calderon 23 Box Score
I mean does he just not guard the PG’s on these teams, these are big PG’s who reasonably could not run past him
Chauncey Billups
Andre Miller pt 1
Okay he did a good job during pt 2
He does a great job with Mo Williams Season against Chicago, and that’s the thing he can’t stop the quick slashers, and that’s what we need someone to stop the quick slashers. I am calling his whole PG Defender title into question, but what we really need is help against quick PG’s, and if he can’t provide he’s should not be worth trading for.
The only reason to trade for him to provide defense against quick PG’s and I just can’t see where he provides it… He also does a good job against Steve Nash in the game just prior to being put on the DNP list Nash pt 1
And when he comes back keeps him to a point below his averageNash pt 2
But for a title of PG defender™ he should do this with consistency, because we are giving up a lot of offense (Travis and Steve) in order to get him. And if quick point guards just can’t be defended, then we should instead counter, with our own major offensive weapon, to counter-act it if we just can’t stop it. And by giving up two key guys for our offense, we would be doing exactly the opposite of that.
JAWESOME!!
Again, you are assuming that those point totals are a result of Kirk's defense.
He often isn’t matched up against the PG on the Bulls because Ben Gordon and Derrick Rose aren’t as good of a defender, so Kirk generally takes the bigger scoring threat. Yes, he’s better against bigger guys than he is against super quick guys, but this doesn’t mean he’s not better at super quick guys than what you have now. The team has actually asked him to bulk up in previous offseasons because he gets stuck on the bigger guys so often, and some people have speculated that this has cost him a little speed. It’s all a bit theoretical what he’d do if defending PGs routinely, because he hasn’t done it due to team needs.
I don’t have game tape of the whole season to go back and break down his defense in all of those games you listed, and a couple of them were horrible defensive efforts by the whole team, including Kirk. But it’s also nowhere near what you make it sound. For the record (and assuming I can count):
In the Brooks game, you linked the wrong Houston matchup – but in the game he did score 18 against the Bulls, Kirk was only in the game for 8 of those points. The other 10 came with Kirk on the bench.
In the Paul game, he only scored 7 points while Kirk was on the court, 22 while he was on the bench.
In the Calderon game, 15 points were with Kirk on the court, 8 while he was on the bench.
In the Billups game, 13 points with Kirk on the court and 12 with him on the bench.
In the Miler game, 9 points with Kirk on the court, 11 with him on the bench.
This doesn’t control for what portion of time they were on the court together, because I have no time for or interest in spending hours sorting through old stats to do anything more comprehensive. And it completely doesn’t establish that Kirk was even guarding the guy while he was on the floor – it’s solely to point out that judging a guy’s defense just off of an opposing player’s box score doesn’t work.
You don’t lose any offense trading away Blake – and I thought the point of trading away Outlaw is that the team has too many guys to have the minutes to go around. Offense isn’t much use to you if it’s sitting on the bench while other guys play. Plus, I don’t think we even actually want Outlaw – that’s the trade people here keep suggesting. We’ve got a bunch of forwards, including our own crew of tweeners to get minutes for already.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
by wjb1492 on Jul 9, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously, I'm glad you take the time to periodically post here.
I oftentimes avoid replying to the Kirk Hinrich haters due to my short temper, so it’s better for me that you debunk their ignorant disdain of the “Captain” in a calm, reasoned manner.
these are good points
That’s all I’m asking for. While it certainly doesn’t establish him as a defender, it shows that he isn’t a complete sieve.
Now to continue my one man push to show people that Travis is worth something. Ugh.
JAWESOME!!
Hey, I totally get that concern
I’m well-practiced at defending Kirk because he gets so much crap on BlogaBull, especially since Ben Gordon decided to sign elsewhere. I completely understand how frustrating it is to have people want to dump a player you like – even if it’s a necessity for the team, it’s irritating to not have their contributions appreciated.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
We've had this argument before and you're quoting the same bs.
Those numbers are inflated due to the number of overtimes, and the majority of those numbers came against Bulls starters.
If you had actually WATCHED the game, you wouldn’t be throwing numbers around that tell you nothing. You would have been impressed by his defense.
You don’t just need Hinrich to guard quick point guards; you need him to fight through picks, guard the best offensive wing if necessary, run the pick and roll, and drive to the hoop & pull-up for a mid-range jumper, while shooting 39-40% from distance. Only the last of list Blake can do.
Patty Mills - PG of the future. Book it.
Yea I totally missed the greatest series of these last playoff (except our series of course)
You can watch Allen Iverson and think he’s god’s gift to basketball. And you can watch Shane Battier and wonder why the heck he is on the team. I mean sweet for the call-out, but please point me to something aside from I’ve got this bridge, you can totally see it, I’ll sell it to you. You want me to show you how I own the Golden Gate… well my last name is Golden and here are 40 other people who will tell you I own it…
And the points from the filler (Travis) is going to come… because he stopped the other guy from scoring them?
The only point to getting him is to do something we can’t do right now. And if he can’t do it either, then stop calling what I say BS, and start putting your money where your mouth is. Just because people repeat something, doesn’t mean its the truth.
JAWESOME!!
by TheOdenator on Jul 9, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
and as I have pointed out
and provided helpful links to, he stops bad pg’s which we can already do. He doesn’t stop good PG’s which is what we need help with.
JAWESOME!!
Dont have stats
but when I have watched Hinrich play, (which was a handful of times in the last 2 – 3 yrs) he does tend to play better D than Blake. Kirk fights through screens more often than not, unlike Blake who NEVER fights through them (not because he doesn’t want to, he just cant). I dont think Kirk can stop Parker or CP3 one on one, but I think he can be a better team defender. Just my 2 cents.
Nodding in agreement
We are on the same page, sir. And no one seems to mention how many games Hinrich missed last year. Nothing personal against him, just don’t see any evidence of his greatness on either end of the floor.
31 games, all due to a torn thumb ligament that required surgery
That’s his one “big” injury in his 6-year career, and he rehabbed and came back from it about a month sooner than projected (came back early even though it was to a team playing like crap and where he’d be coming off the bench, I might add.)
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
You make it seem like Hinrich is still the starting point guard of the Chicago Bulls
Citing per game stats in a 7 game vacuum where both teams played more minutes than any other 1st round series also lends no credence to your argument.
Unless someone posts a analytical breakdown of Kirk’s defense after every single game, nothing will convince you. It’s been months since the 1st round, and clearly there are biases in both sides of the Hinrich camp.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 10, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's not great at guarding the quick PG's, because no one is.
His defensive strengths are against elite 2’s and 3’s. He was the reason ( in my eyes ) that Chicago – Boston series went 7 games. His defense against Pierce took him out of the game for long stretches. Hinrich also shut Wade down in that series vs the Heat the year after their championship.
Hinrich would be quite an upgrade. He is more offensively talented than Blake, as his midrange game doesn’t allow teams to just play up in his grill like they do Blake. And he would instantly be our best perimeter defender.
by dario argento on Jul 9, 2009 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Chicago's plans were to keep Hinrich if/when
Ben Gordon left.
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Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
There was a rumor they were signing Jannero Pargo so that would open up a Kirk trade again.
by danielfarrell on Jul 8, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
If hinrich is gonna be traded
it will be after the season starts. I think if D. Rose and salmons play real well going into this season and the team shows that it might not need hinrich as much, they are probably gonna trade him for cap relief and a decent backup (hello blake?). So you’ll have to wait until january to know if hinrich is coming to your team or not…
On Behalf of Sue, Wjb, majoyenrac, Bullshooter and all the other Hinrich fans...Ill keep the Hinrich Hope coming...There will be light!
Jannero Pargo does not make Kirk expendable
That’s not to say Kirk absolutely won’t get traded, because who knows – but we needed to sign a 4th guard even assuming Kirk is on the team all season, and Jannero was willing to sign a one year deal for what we had left under the luxury tax.
In honor of the dearly departed, I declare July PB&J month - everyone raise a sandwich to the memory of Ben!
D - ###
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
I don't know how you can say that.
Blake’s averages were, in some cases, higher than his regular season averages, as were his minutes. Among other things, he shot almost 42% from 3 (41.7 vs. 42.7 in the regular season). Versus Derek Fisher and Jordan Farmar, Brooks’ averages were higher in most categories. He did shoot better from 3 against the Blazers, but a lot of those were garbage time points. The thing is that Yao was out against LA and they had no big men, giving the Lakers more leeway to zero in on perimeter guys. Brooks still outplayed Fisher and Farmar. I think you’d concede that both of those guys belong in the playoffs. Also, this was Blake’s first foray into the playoffs and he does have championship experience in college. Maybe he’s not a starter, but Blake’s detractors exaggerate when they bash his game.
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