Prince and Lee?
by axel360 on Jul 4, 2009 2:12 PM PDT
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So, we didn't get Hedo. Time for Plan B. Here's an idea.
There was a fanpost earlier about us possibly going after Prince. I love Prince. He's experienced, a winner, great at defense, and just good enough on offense to take pressure off of Roy. There's a reason he was on the Olympic basketball team last summer. (Nate was on the coaching staff too) I've heard rumors about Prince a couple times, and every time we had to give up Joel. Of course, my first reaction was "NOOOOO!". But what if after we trade Joel for Prince we signed David Lee or did a sign and trade Travis for Lee?
This makes sense for Detroit because they get a much needed center (Sheed and probably McDyess are as good as gone and Maxiell is like 6'6 or 6'7). The Pistons would also rid themselves of an expensive small forward when they just drafted Daye and Summers and signed Villanueva (who only played PF for the Bucks because they have so many SFs). And the Knicks dont' want any long-term contracts. Travis only has one year left on his contract. It expires right after next season, so it wouldn't hurt their 2010 cap space. Travis would be perfect in D'Antoni's system. He's an athletic scorer that doesn't like to play defense. D'Antoni wanted Trav in Phoenix and there was a report that a mystery Eastern Conference team in the top ten of the draft like Outlaw. I'm assuming that was the Knicks. I'm not an expert on the cap, so I don't know if a Joel for Prince and than a sign and trade travis for Lee would work, but it seems to make sense.
With Joel and Channing gone, and Greg likely never being a player that averages 40 minutes a game, Lee could still get a solid 25-30 minutes a game as a backup PF AND C. This is important because if we're going to pay him $8-10 million a year, he better get some playing time. I've heard Lee rumors to Portland for a while now. I love his game, but I've always brushed these rumors off because he wouldn't get enough playing time. But if we turn Joel into a stud like Prince, get rid of an unneeded 3, and free up playing time for a guy we (supposedly) covet, why wouldn't we?
I might be crazy, but tell me what you think.
Update: Since Detorit might want more than just Joel for Prince, what if we also gave them Batum? Since they are so similar, it wouldn't make a lot of sense for us to have both Prince and Batum on our team anyway. Even after giving up Travis and Batum, we'd still have Webster to be the backup 3. Just a thought
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I think you're crazy
I suggested the exact same possibility in the Prince thread just a few down on the sidebar.
Three man rotation of Greg, LMA, and Lee or Millsap at 4-5. LMA starts at PF but is our main backup center as well. Lee or Millsap, whichever we get, plays 25-30 mpg, since he plays PF when LMA is on the bench or backing up Greg.
We lose Travis and Joel, and add Prince. It could happen.
I think you have to give up both Travis and Joel to get Prince. He won’t go cheaply. You might have to give up a draft pick, too.
He’s only under contract for two more years. Do you pay that much with the risk that he’ll walk away, or insist on a max contract? Don’t know.
I think it would make us quite a bit better.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
What if
we gave up Joel and Batum for prince? I like batum but he is too similar to Prince to be a backup.
No way
We’re building for the future as well as the now. Prince might be good for 4-5 years. Batum is going to be Prince in 3 years, and for 8-10 years thereafter.
Why is similarity a problem in your backup? If we had a guy who played just like Brandon as our backup SG, would that be bad? If we had a guy who played just like Greg as our backup C, would that be bad?
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Ok...
1) We don’t know if Batum is Prince in 3 years.
2) You want your backup to bring something different than the starter.
3) Who is to say Prince leaves Portland after 2 years?
4) Even if he does, we still have Webster.
OK
1) You’re right, we don’t KNOW. But I am certain, and it is dangerous to tell the future ruler of the world he is wrong. I’ll let you disagree if you ask for permission nicely, though. I’m cool that way, really. (Time will tell, but Batum looks promising, wouldn’t you agree?)
2) Wrong. YOU want YOUR backup to bring something different than the starter. When the starter brings what Tayshaun Prince brings, I (unlike you) would be quite happy to have the backup bring the exact same thing. 48 mpg of Tayshaun would be very cool by me, with the rest of the guys we have on this team. And if we need a backup to bring something a little different, we can always run out Martell, or run a three guard lineup with PG, Brandon, and Rudy.
3) I didn’t say he would, but I don’t want to give up Batum if he might.
4) Yes, but if Prince leaves and we gave up Nic to get him, then all we have is Martell. And I do not yet know that Martell is going to be healthy AND take the step forward that I think he might.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 4, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have to disagree
It’s basic basketball knowledge that it’s better to have you backup be a little different. That’s why I’ve heard Blake’s name in the Hinrich rumors. They are too similar. Batum is promising but Prince has a freaking gold medal!
Hmm....
I don’t know about this basic basketball knowledge so much. I do think I could be accused of knowing a little bit about the game, though.
There is value in having your backup be different in that it creates one more thing your opponents have to scout and prep against. But there is value in having a backup be very similar, too. He can slot in with the starters any time without them having to adjust their game at all.
If your starter is a one-dimensional player, and you are getting killed because the other team has prepared for that one dimension, then you need to a backup who brings another dimension. But Prince is not one-dimensional. He is a threat to shoot the three, play point forward, penetrate, pass, etc. And I can live with his type of defense at SF for 48 mpg, easily. In fact, if we have both him and Nic, you could bring Nic in with him and Roy at times and have two great defensive stoppers on the court at once, if needed.
Your basic basketball knowledge is probably true for backups of one dimensional players, but it falls flat for multi-dimensional players like Roy or Prince.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
If Blazers sign lee
There would have to be another move after that to free up minutes. That move would most likely be trading Joel.
A couple of things
Now that Turk is gone, David Lee is the most talented FAs available, and he plays a “smilar” position that KP was targeting with Hedo. You could see the Blazers trying to put together a big front line this week, so maybe they’re still working in that direction?
Joel and Blake are tight with Nate/KP, I doubt they’re going anywhere. Even for Prince. I do think Tayshaun is also a player with some of the skills that they were trying to upgrade with Hedo (BBIQ, playoff experience, point forward) Prince doesn’t have the same kind of P&R talent that Turk does, though. He’s more of a “back his defender down and pass the ball if the double team comes” kind of offensive threat (sort of a skinny Charles Barkley)
I have no idea what Dumars would ask for, if KP wanted Tayshaun. But I suspect Joel is not “available” mainly because of his great relationship with Nate/KP. Maybe a year from now, if Oden takes over the center position and Przybilla’s PT shrinks, KP will deal him (to Minnesota for Rubio’s rights might be a possible destination? His family is from MN…) But Joel signed on for the championship ride, and he was the backbone of the team last year. He’s staying
So, if KP is really targeting David Lee, where would the minutes come from, assuming Joel/Greg are healthy and playing 48+mpg? Well, you’d have to consider a “triple towers” lineup for at least 10-12 mpg (LMA, Lee, C) Aldridge can defend on the perimeter, heck, he did a nice job when he had to switch on to point guards, last year. There aren’t a whole lot of SFs that LMA couldn’t stay in front of, and of course he would KILL THEM on the other end.
So, if Nate/KP were contemplating a 6’10 / 6’11 /7’0 lineup (Hedo / LMA / C) how much more of a “stretch” would it be to play a LMA / Lee / C lineup for 5-6 minutes a half? They could pack the paint and rebound the heck out of the ball, and LMA and Lee both run the court extremely well.
Will KP go after the “BPA” on the FA market and then leave it up to Nate to make the pieces fit? (This idea smacks of the Rasheed Wallace, Brian Grant and Jermaine O’Neal PF logjam that ended with Jerm being dealt for Dale Davis.) WIll history repeat itself, or will the quest to matchup with the “length” of the L*kers lead Portland to offer Lee the most $$$ of anyone in the NBA? We should all know pretty soon
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
That is funny...
I will have to break out the “basic basketball knowledge” for my next argument.
There is some truth to the “change of pace” strategy coming off the bench, but I have to agree with the king on this one. Travis is a great change of pace from Batum in Nate’s rotation. He brings “instant offense” off the bench in place of a stronger defender with a limited offensive game. But imagine having two well-rounded players spelling each other and keeping minutes down for each guy while being versatile enough to play together when needed. I think that would be more ideal than substituting a one dimensional player.
Imagine Prince and Batum guarding Richard Jefferson and Tony Parker while Roy matches up with Mason or Manu. It might not be an ideal pairing for long stretches but if you need some stops down the stretch, it could be quite effective.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
I was thinking
Lee would get a lot of the backup center minutes as well as backup power forward minutes. There’s 96 minutes at the 4/5 every game. Even if LA and Oden take up 70 minutes, there’s still 28 minutes left. Those would be Lee’s minutes. It would work if Oden and Aldridge aren’t both on the bench at the same time.
I was thinking the same.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
No way with a head bob, hand wave, and a finger snap and a "what ya taliking about willis"
Batum can’t be touched unless its for a player who will be in the league in five to ten years hitting their prime, as well.
A Joel and Travis trade seems like a good move if it yields Prince AND Lee or Milsap as a free agent signing.
I Like Prince- Not the singer
Here is a post I put up on June 30 and everyone said no way to this possible lineup..
http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/6/30/930871/my-best-lineup-if-im-kp
C- Oden and Joel
PF- Aldridge and Milsap
PG- Harris and (Blake or Bayless)*
SG- Roy and Rudy
SF- Prince and (Batum or Webster or Outlaw)*
( )* = assuming some combo of these 5 players will be used somehow. And also assuming that any player other than ROY, LMA and ODEN is available. Can we make this happen? Do you like it? I like that lineup but it probably wont happen. But this is the NBA-anything is possible. (Heck Shaq was just bought for Ben Wallace, Sash Pavlovic, a 2nd round pick and $500,000.) Any thoughts Blazers Faithful? Is this even possible?
by cavejunctionblazer on Jul 4, 2009 2:37 PM PDT reply actions
5 days later...
I still like my line up above, but David Lee could be in for Milsap and that wouldnt botheer me. Prince is the best vet SF we could land in my opinion, but now I feel like after all this Hedo mess, we really dont need a new SF, jsut a PF and a PG.
by cavejunctionblazer on Jul 4, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Because our perimeter defense reeks
(actually, that was a generous assessment of it) and Nic is going to be a very good perimeter defender. And he is a great fit with the rest of the team — unselfish, good passer, good court sense, will be a very good 3 point shooter, etc.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
With what are you disagreeing?
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
They don't
I don’t think they do. He’s a special player.
Nic is good, he's the best we have!
Also, he can be a very dynamic offensive player as well.
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
This is very common
getting attached to your team’s players and overvaluing young potential. You guys definitely aren’t the only ones that do it, though. It’s the worst with Batum. He steps in and is serviceable at best at a young age and all of a sudden he’s more valuable than a 29 year old Olympian.
You can see that Batum is very close
to joining the Prince / Ariza / Battier state-of-the-art small forward club. He’s going to be our answer to Kobe / Lebron / Wade / Durant for many years. And he’s CHEAP. It would be foolish not to hold on to him.
At this point, with a 29 year old
You have to look at the long term. No one here should believe that Batum is a more valuable player than Prince right now, but for this franchise he would be over the next 10-12 years. In a decade, Tayshaun Prince will be a few years into retirement, while Nic will be the same age Prince is now. As jscot pointed out above, if you turn around and trade Batum for Prince, in 6 years you will be without both, with only Webster left and a 25 year old Batum hitting his prime in Detroit. I absolutely agree that Tayshaun is a perfect fit for this team right now, but I think to acquire him at the expense of a player the potential caliber of Batum is steep and narrow minded. It would be a much better trade if the Trail Blazers potential championship window had 2-3 years remaining, but that’s clearly not the case.
I want Greg Oden to tuck me in at night and tell me stories about the old times
This is very common
Overstating someone else’s opinion to make it look ridiculous.
No one says Nic is more valuable than Prince. I’d do a straight-up trade any day. So would KP. In a heartbeat.
Your proposal was that we give them both Joel and Nic for Prince, and for some reason that I don’t understand, give Travis to NY for no real reason at all. Are Joel and Nic more valuable than Tayshaun? I think they are, especially since we would only have Prince locked up for two years, whereas Joel would probably be easy to re-sign, and Nic will be here for at least 6 more years.
If you do this deal, you don’t give Detroit Joel and Nic, you give them Joel and Travis. That’s after you sign David Lee to more money than he is worth, knowing that NY is shedding salary and won’t match. But if you are really afraid of them matching, do a sign and trade sending them a draft pick.
Nic + Joel > Prince for a team whose horizon of contention is so long. We should be contenders for at least the next 7-8 years, and probably longer. In 2 years, Prince is out of contract. In 4-5 years, max, he starts to slow down.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Not overvaluing Batum
It’s not overvaluing Batum, it’s just thinking the price is too high to acquire Prince. Joel and Travis are a high cost, but an acceptable cost. For one, Outlaw has said he wants to start somewhere and get more minutes. His contract is up soon and there is no guarantee we will be able to resign him again.
Nic, on the other hand, is still in his rookie contract and will be a RFA in his next contract. So, we should be able to retain him the next time around for non-max money.
Prince only has two years left, at which point he will be 31 and looking for a Hedon’t deal. And we won’t be able to sign him because we will too many other players with big contracts.
Blazers are in "win now" mode
Plus, Roy’s body won’t last another decade. It is already showing signs of not lasting long. When Roy isn’t an elite player, Blazers aren’t championship contenders unless Oden turns into a superstar. We have way too many small forwards anyway. And Webster isn’t too bad a defender either. We need EXPERIENCE. Prince gives us that. The guy has been to 6 conference finals, 2 NBA Finals, is an NBA champion, won a gold in China.
I like the idea of Prince
I don’t like the idea of giving up Batum to get him. I think Batum has already shown the sense for the game that makes players great. He possesses what Blazer fans have been waiting for Webster and Outlaw to show over the past 3 seasons. Outlaw was better last year but I expect Batum to surpass him in 2 years if not this coming year. As for Webster, last year was going to be his break out year and it was derailed. He might still have that year but he has really only shown spurts of potential.
Given the choice of those three right now, I take Batum. And for most trades he would be a deal breaker.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
I don't love giving up Joel
but I think I would if I knew they could get a young guy like Lee, Millsap, Bass that would give them a strong three man rotation at the big positions and then sign a back up center that would see limited minutes, I could get behind it.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Definitely agree
I would never give up Joel unless we would get a guy like prince and i knew we’d be getting a guy like lee or millsap
Because we just won 54 games
And why wouldn’t we try to win now (as long as it doesn’t kill our future, which losing batum and getting prince doesnt in my opinion)?
"Win-now" means "win-now", not "win-now and continue building for the future"
“Win-now” means sacrificing the future for the present.
Not necessarily
It IS possible to make a move that improves a team with out destroying the future. it doesnt have to be that drastic. we’re not trading roy and aldridge.
You can do that, but it's not called "win-now", it's just called "trying to win"
Trading Roy and Aldridge is “rebuilding”. Tweaking the lineup is “improving”. Mortgaging the future for the present (trading all of the young talent for established aging talent) is “win-now”.
Well...
If the Blazers aren’t in win now that means they are in rebuilding mode. And they AREN’T in rebuilding mode. If they WEREN’T in win now mode, they would have tried to do something in the draft. KP loves the draft, but he knows we aren’t rebuilding and don’t need youth, but rather experience.
there is a place in between "win now" and "rebuilding"
Win now teams are like Boston… they either win now or loose for a very long time while trying to rebuild.
Phoenix is a rebuilding team… they know they can’t win with what they have so they must go another route.
We, on the other hand, need to just tweak our roster a little to win. And we’re going to be winning or at least challenging for a very long time. We have a future. Were not win now or rebuilding. We’re in the position we are right now, by having good young player like Batum… Trading them away starts closing our window. Thats kinda why signing Hedo would have been a very good thing. Bad for money.. but good for the team.
my favorite mod is prezofdelete
by In Walks Rudy on Jul 4, 2009 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
This
Arguments about semantics can be really stupid, but we can’t communicate with each other if the words we use mean different things.
lol, yep
my favorite mod is prezofdelete
by In Walks Rudy on Jul 4, 2009 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
btw those are some nice socks
my favorite mod is prezofdelete
by In Walks Rudy on Jul 4, 2009 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
It would be a little easier to follow your comments
if you used the reply button. You have some interesting things to say but the thread is getting lost.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
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