Let's Talk Hedo
by Dave on Jul 4, 2009 2:24 AM PDT
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PrintI've been following the Hedo Turkoglu story with rapt interest all day, as I'm sure you have. Kudos to Ben Golliver for keeping on top of it. He is indeed the man in the trenches and his work has been amazing.
The story, of course, has been twisting and turning like a belly dancer on an anthill. Friday morning it looked like Hedo was a Blazer. Friday afternoon it looked up in the air. Friday evening it became apparent that though they had donned the white sport coat and pink carnation, the Blazers had nobody to take to the dance. Obviously that's a letdown, at least for tonight. Here are some thoughts to put things in perspective.
This isn't the first time a team has been used to establish an asking price for another team. We talk about players as family. In some ways they are. But this is also a business. What happened with Turkoglu is within the rules. It could be that he never had serious intentions of signing with the Blazers and this was a cold move. More likely he found it advisable to seriously consider his options and get definite salary quotes from all interested parties even if he was leaning towards one team over another. If it were me, I'd come into Portland thinking that they'd absolutely have to knock my socks off with the atmosphere, plans, and salary in order to get me to change my mind. But I'd still meet with them to see if they could do that. It's called being smart and doing your due diligence. There's no reason to hate Turkoglu for that.
One of the broader lessons to be learned here is to never lose sight of the game. You have to be a little ruthless to operate in this league. Sometimes you have to make difficult decisions about players or contracts the same way Turkoglu made his decision about his future team. Kevin Pritchard has already had to take on that role. (Anyone remember that post saying goodbye to Channing Frye?) He'll have to again in the future. Nobody should complain about that. Loyalty exists, but it's bound to contracts and performance. Don't forget that.
It goes without saying that another lesson is to not count chickens before they're hatched. The massive swing in the story today rivals any in Blazers history. Once upon a time Portland called a press conference to welcome Trenton Hassell to town only to have the Timberwolves match the offer and pull him back. Today it looked like Turkoglu was a Blazer and now he's not. Part of that may have been the team's doing. Part of it was surely the media. We move quickly nowadays. I've never liked quick as much as I like right. Obviously we all need to be careful about jumping at the first thing we hear. Personally I'm not going to be comfortable with the idea that Hedo is a Raptor until I see a signed contract. The only thing that would make this story more perfect (and interesting) would be another reversal of fortune wherein Toronto ended up not signing him and him having to come back for a lesser offer. That would be part of the game as well, eh?
Here's another quasi-philosophical point: Things like this usually work out like they're supposed to. It sounds trite, but it's often true. Think back now. Does anybody really miss Trenton Hassell?
I'm going to be honest with you about a few things:
--Turkoglu always seemed more like a Raptor to me than a Blazer. He fits that team's profile. We also knew from the beginning that Toronto's offer would be bigger and he was in a position where the bigger deal was going to weigh heavier. I was honestly somewhat surprised when the news broke this morning that he was coming to Portland.
--Part of me was also disappointed when the news broke this morning. Granted, I was prepared to warm up to the idea. I could see the offensive contributions Hedo can make. I could see having another all-around stat guy next to Brandon Roy being an awe-inspiring sight. I was more than willing to make the best of it and get excited about it. But I was also prepared to do something I haven't had to do very often since I started this gig: posit publicly that the Blazers might have made a mistake. I tend to camp out on the John Hollinger side of the issue, that Hedo looked good because he was in a system that fit him (and covered for him) and even his "good" wasn't that spectacular. I was worried that he'd need a bigger role, particularly handling the ball, than his relative talent on the team would warrant. Most of all I was worried that we were buying high on a guy whose value wouldn't be great unless he came through in spades. There was reward to this move, yes, but there was also risk. The downside of that risk at least equaled the upside of the reward. The Blazers might need to make a bold move, but I wonder if this was the one.
--The worst part of the deal by far was the five-year, $50 million contract. Not only is that a lot of money, it's just too long. The Blazers don't need a starting small forward for five years. They need a guy who will start for them for two years, three tops (with a tradeable expiring contract in that last year, obviously). If Nicolas Batum or Martell Webster panned out then Turkoglu would have been a millstone around our necks long before the final year of his contract. By the fourth year he wouldn't have been worth a plug nickel in trade. He wouldn't have been happy coming off the bench. I'm not sure he would have been a capable starter at that age either. Portland dodged a bullet here and I'm pretty convinced that the Raptors are going to find that out. Continuing our "ditched at the dance" theme, we're all sad tonight but three years down the road when we've found our beloved (possibly standing quietly behind us all the while) and the Raptors are waltzing with a girl who's aged poorly and is causing them headaches, we'll probably be relieved.
By the way, though the story told is going to be Hedo jilting Portland I think it's entirely possible that some of these misgivings showed through on the Blazers' part today as well. There may have been second thoughts about this deal, some not likely to be made public. The Blazers had to make a pitch-perfect presentation to convince Turkoglu to take $5-6 million less and live in a less optimal city (by his way of thinking anyway). Turkoglu had to show commitment and drive to justify the biggest, longest contract of his career, a contract that would certainly burden the Blazers down the road. The most likely explanation in all of this is that neither of those things happened.
Sadly, that doesn't change the fact that the Blazers are still without a confirmed acquisition, which was probably not their "A" plan. You can characterize today as understandable. You may characterize it as ultimately for the best. You can't characterize it as positive. There have been teams in this position before who have made expensive stabs at the wrong players to compensate. There have also been teams who couldn't use their cap flexibility at all. Either result would be a serious blow to Portland's growth curve. The Blazers optimal plan definitely involves adding quality help right now. They've been building towards this moment for the last couple of years. They now have to tread the fine line between being patient, waiting for the right move, and just letting the opportunity slip by.
In one scenario the Blazers have time. The cap space doesn't go anywhere on its own. They have flexibility in trade matters right up until the Feburary deadline. In another scenario they're going to have to scramble now. This one would be invoked if they had a domino-like plan that started with signing a free agent, continued through making a trade, and finished with extending the contracts of Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge...which is a very likely scenario. It's quite possible that those steps have to happen in order: the free agent signing to make full use of the cap space, the trade then being conducted under the 125%+$100,000 over-the-cap rule, and the contract extensions putting us irrevocably beyond the cap limit. If the Blazers wanted to take back 25% more salary than they sent out in trade, for instance, consummating that deal before signing a free agent would lose them a significant amount of their remaining signing space. If this is the case, the trade won't wait forever. Also locking up Roy and Aldridge is a big deal...certainly the most important step in the team's future of the three listed. You don't want that issue to linger. One assumes that the Blazer brain trust has a Plan B at the ready. If not they're probably burning the midnight oil as we speak.
I would not have been entirely displeased to see Hedo Turkoglu as a Blazer. I am not displeased to see that he is not. I am mindful, though, that we have veered off of the highway and onto the shoulder here. I am hoping that the hand at the wheel is steady and confident in bringing us back...that we'll neither drive up an embankment nor overcorrect and swerve across traffic trying to get back.
It's going to be an interesting summer. This may be the biggest challenge of Kevin Pritchard's career.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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props for the hard work Dave
and I thought I was up late…
We caught a break.
Playoff fever got the best of us. I like our team NOW. I liked Sergio and Channing, but they weren’t going to win us a title. Batum, Martel and Trout were the big losers in this signing and now that it isn’t happening we will get a chance to see if Martel (assuming he’s healthy) and Batum can fulfill the promise that they have shown. To me, Batum is the key to what we have put together thus far. I hope that KP keeps in mind what he already has. We drafted a banger and a guy in Claver who has Turkoglu skills and could be that stat sheet guy in two years, when Turkoglu would have been in the third year of five. Who knows what Batum will be in three years? Bayless, Oden, Batum and Martel all have break out years and we make a small deal for a defender at point guard we could be really good next year and more importantly for years to come. While not signing Turkoglu may close the window on a title this year, it leaves the window open for years to come. One thing I do have faith in is KP’s eye for under utilized talent. I wouldn’t be surprised if we make a tiny deal to get a guy that makes fans say “wha?” Only to discover that the dude can log some important role player minutes. What I will say is thank you Raptors.
If we start the season without signing anybody, I’ll be okay.
Dave: per your comment that the worst part was the 5 yr./"$50M" contract...
This from David Aldridge, quoted by Ben in his long-and-expanding piece below:
A league source divulged late Friday that Portland’s offer to Turkoglu was actually $57 million over five years, not the $50 million that has been reported.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Hey Cap experts
Who do we have to renounce or cut to get to 57/5? I don’t know how we get that high. 50/5 seemed much more feasible.
Are we cutting someone like Outlaw then? Blake? That doesn’t make sense.
Morty
Maybe it was a sign and trade
"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes."--Thomas Paine
Just like your face.
See? That makes no sense, just like back loading Hedo’s contract. Unless they really wanted to make a HTEC.
I thought the 5/50 WAS with doing as much backloading as we could, with the 8% raises and whatnot?
M—
For some reason, I thought we could reach 10M in cap space if we renounced the EUR folks.
If so, a starting salary of 10M with 8% raises per year is 5 years, 58.7M (If I did my math right… no guarantees, I’m out of practice)
Does that include Claver?
With how high we seem to be on Freeland, I’d be surprised if we renounced him, but doubly surprised if we renounced Claver.
I think you’re right though.
MO
According to the recent post
By AK198something (thanks AK), here’s the word:
Cap holds:
Victor Claver ($1,012,900) {22nd Pick @ Rookie Scale}
Joel Freeland ($824,200) {30th Pick @ Rookie Scale}
Petteri Koponen ($824,200) {30th Pick @ Rookie Scale}
Total: $49,982,722
So, the total minus Joel and Pete: $48,334,322.
David Aldridge hinted that the cap will likely be around 58M on July 8th. So they could probably get close to 9.7m to start, while still holding onto Claver. It would have been tough to hit 10M exactly, but the overall contract total would be pretty similar (except to Hedo, of course, who seems to have been very watchful of the totals, down to the dollar)
According to Storyteller's sheet
I read that the cap for Portland was currently $55.745 at the draft. Renouncing the three foreign picks, Frye and trading Sergio brings us to $47.321 which is about $10M under the projected cap of $57.3M. Starting at $10M the contract @ 8% increases brings $58.666. Starting at $9.800M the contract yields $57.493M.
They must have wanted Turk badly to blow away the future for the present.
Hah, not bad, nearly identical.
David Aldridge gave slightly different cap projections, and AK had a slightly different numbers for our salary figure, but very similar overall.
Ditto
It seems like the Blazers have a plan B and it involves a trade of some sort this summer. Quick reported they were already back on the phone lines. However, I would almost like to see us wait until the trade deadline now. That is when and where we will get the best value. Other GM’s are going to see that we are sort of reeling from this Turkoglu let-down. If I were them, I’d play hardball in any deal with the Blazers. Hopefully the Blazer’s braintrust will remain steady and won’t do anything silly and stupid.
Can I buy you a fish sandwich?
Seems to be a debate as to whether to save the cap space for a lopsided trade, but...
seems that if we do a lopsided trade, we have to do it now, could be wrong on that, as I recall Dave or Ben writing a nice piece on potentially “waiting,” but …
It seems some FA’s are actually going to sign “below market” deals this summer, simply bc there are not enough teams with cap space to drive up the price: aka: sounds like we could get Gortat for 6.5 million, and having an “asset” like that signed, would seem to be more conducive in working out a trade…
ex: Detroit could use a young big man, Gortat in a package with Outlaw and some “sweetners,” could be very attractive for Teyshaun, also…not saying it’ll happen, but there are options there
We technically have until the trade deadline to do a lopsided trade.
That is in February.
Personally, I’d rather go into the season having already completed the lopsided trade, or with knowing how we’ll utilize the cap space. Will make things easier during the season.
Morty
We have until our cap space evaporates or the deadline to do a lopsided trade
whichever comes first.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes he will likely get the full MLE there
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
I saw the photo but only wondered how small Hedo looked compared to KP
And that KP looked like he gained a little weight, so he didn’t tuck in his shirt.
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
I'm thinking Turkoglu was plan "F"
“Fugedaboutit!”
As far as not doing anything silly, I would add the word “else” after anything.
Obviously, I am quite delighted that Turk found a better deal elsewhere… good for him, good for us.
The eternal optimist
It’ll be for the better. Besides, this is now where KP earns his stripes. We’ll see how he reacts to the situation and if he can rebound with the same glam as we’re used to.
@#$ %@$!@#$!!!
I am so mad it is unquantifiable. Hedo was perfect. Portland is debilitated when it comes to signing free agents. The only advantage we have at the moment is to execute a lopsided trade. I hate that people are taking the stance that they didn’t want Hedo in the first place. That is a defeatist attitude. We should be striving to create the best roster possible, Hedo presented that possibility and we should be pissed that we missed that opportunity. apologies for my anger, I have been drinking.
jigga
Tony Luftman Is an Animatronic Robot created by Cyberdyne Industries for the purpose of the destruction of the entire human race, no one shall be spared.
Hedo was NOT perfect
At best, he was better than doing nothing. He could well have turned out to be the $50 million millstone Dave describes. So I think we should be bummed, but with reservations. You could even make that, “relieved but with reservations.”
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
I didn't want Hedo in the first place...
OR the second place…or any place after that. When the word came down that we were signing him, I sighed heavily and determined to make the best of it (In KP We Trust, right?).
Does this make my attitude defeatist? I don’t think so…I believe that the right move is still out there and we can sign a free agent point guard (Sessions/Bibby looks pretty damned good) and then find a trade for a backup PF or a starting SF (love to see them make a move for Crash Wallace or Battier). This was ALWAYS my thinking. Defeatist? Hell no…
Hedo would have been interesting, although his relationship with his wife is reminiscent of how things shook out with Sabonis…lol But did we really want interesting? An interesting that would have required a shift in the team approach? Nevermind the fact that he would have been a $50 million albatross… Financially, this was a bad move from the beginning…irresponsible at best.
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
Neither did I...
but i was warming to the idea of getting hedo. now i get the much more enjoyable task of ripping Hedo relentlessly and laughing at him when the blazers get rings before he does. wouldn’t it be great the first time the Raptors came to town everyone in the RG made whipping noises when turk got the ball (assuming bringing actual whips to the arena isn’t a good idea)?
by retirecards51 on Jul 4, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Me three
I didn’t want Hedo, accepted and learned to like the move, and am now happy that we didn’t sign him (especially for >$55 million). Now, though, I’m feeling a little lost and empty wondering what the next move might be.
I had a hard time seeing how getting Turkeyglue made us win a championship
I could see how he made us better on the offensive end. I could see how he could make us so much better that whatever he lacked defensively (and who will forget that block of Kobe in the finals?) was a net positive. But—unless KP & co. had a trade that would have perfectly fitted Roy, Hedu, Aldridge & Oden (or some other combination)—I didn’t see the Blazers so dominant that a championship was imminent.
It really all depends if 8-9 exceptional atheletes can cohere on both ends of the floor after playing nearly 100 full-tilt games. And I can’t see him fit on this team. Hell, I can’t see Oden fit, and he’s been with us for a year.
Good luck, KP. I hope you guys can figure something out while you have the chance.
Honor Alaa Abdelnaby.
First in the NBA. At least alphabetically
Sleep well Ben.
I however, work graveyard with internet access so I will stoke the midnight posts for ya!
B.S. Liberal Studies OSU '06
Trade for Gerald Wallace!!
Let's not talk Hedo.
Just like Dave said, he looked more like a Raptor than a Blazer. Lets move to PG talk!
Roy Tribute
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
by Net Ranger on Jul 4, 2009 3:09 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
In KP we trust?
I’m interested to see how KP deals with the trade landscape…his draft night resume is unassailable, and he’s done an outstanding job building the team…but we still need to see how he handles the next step. We haven’t seen him handle major free agent or trade issues…and his first foray into a big-name signing ended, well, like this. Moreso even than the Roy/Aldridge draft day magic, I think the next year will come to define KP’s tenure as GM. Not only does he have to deal with this whale of an issue, but now he has to work the trades he feels we need, and then resign two franchise players to long term contracts.(And while Roy is straight forward in that we should throw large bags of money with dollar signs stenciled on the outside at him, Aldridge is trickier. Do we sign him to a max on the promise of his potential, or give him a lesser offer because he hasnt developed completely yet?) I have faith in KP, but it will be fascinating to see where he goes with it. Heady days to be a Blazer fan.
This is not an anti-KP rant, but rather....
An appeal to everyone who keeps using the term “Pritchslap” to cease and desist doing that. I’ve never liked the term because of it’s obvious negative connotations toward women. It’s also insulting to anyone in the NBA who does business with KP and the Blazers. Who’d want to make a trade with the Blazers and then have a bunch of Blazer fans crowing about how they’ve been “_____slapped”? Not that all that many NBA execs. know or even care about what we say here, but still, let’s show a little class, OK?
KP is going to have good days and bad ones. Yesterday wasn’t a very good one because we’re told that he and Nate were very high on getting Hedo T. For me what’s probably the most embarrassing thing is that the announcement was made that he was coming to Pdx, there was a special radio show about this, and everyone was acting like it was a done deal. Wheels must really be out of sorts.
So, the band plays on. I’m sure there’s more moves to come.
Go Blazers!
by kuhnsmith on Jul 4, 2009 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 19 recs
Ban a word?
Shall we start burning books you find offensive as well???
Enough with the censorship, people. Guess what? When the usefulness of a word fades, so does its usage… It just takes time.
I don’t use the word, but not because some PC jagoff rants about it’s “offensive to women” or some such whine… Good lord people, get over yourselves and police your own language…
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
We've got people here to police for us
"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes."--Thomas Paine
The word "jagoff"
Is offensive to people who do it.
Please cease and desist your persecution of hairy palmed individuals.
by TheThinWhiteDuke on Jul 4, 2009 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Please accept my humblest apologies...
hairy.
well played, sir…well played…
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
I'm trying in particular to figure out how exactly this phrase is "offensive to women"....
can someone enlighten me? I’d also like a female’s opinion on this matter… Sophia or Twggy perhaps….?
Blazers win!
The term "Pritchslap" is, of course, taken from the term "bitchslap"
which implies that slapping women (bitches) when they get out of line is the accepted norm and justly deserved. When a man is bitchslapped it implies that he is weak and womanly and that the bitchslapper is somehow superior and justified in his treatment of the bitchslapee. Bottom line is that Pritchard doesn’t like the term.
"Aneurysm".
When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie
by annthefan on Jul 4, 2009 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've said it before, but..
the term refers to slapping LIKE a woman, not slapping a woman. The thinking being that a man to hit another is one thing, but to do so effetely is an additional insult.
Bottom line is this is a chat board and nobody in the NBA cares what we say.
It's = It Is
Its = Belongs to It
by 12sharks on Jul 5, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What if a child read it?
"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetrated in the name of the noblest causes."--Thomas Paine
I've looked at definitions of the term "bitchslapped from several sources
and yours is one of many. The term is denigrating no matter how you use it or what your definition. As i said before, bottom line is that Pritchard doesn’t like the term Pritchslapped and I have enough respect for him that I’ll honor his wishes and not use that term.
"Aneurysm".
When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie
by annthefan on Jul 5, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can’t say PS was ever my favorite phrase, and admit using it once or twice.
But never once in a million years did I ever think of a woman when I saw it used.
But point taken.
GO
THE TEACHER ......come into my classroom "THE PAINT" for some tutelage.
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"The rancor reflected in that remark I won't dignify with comment. But I'll address your general attitude of hopeless negativism." – Everett "O Brother, where art Thou?"
When I think of PS, I think of...:
1) KP backhanding Kevin McHale
2) KP backhanding Steve Kerr and whoever was GM before him
3) KP backhanding Woj after that huge article about trying to sully Miles’ rep before MILES GOT BUSTED FOR WEED IN MEMPHIS… (to my knowledge Woj has never apologized)
Definitely no women in there
Blazers win!
It’s not like the other GM’s are saying this is really a bad deal for us,
but it’s KP, so lets do it.
GO
THE TEACHER ......come into my classroom "THE PAINT" for some tutelage.
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"The rancor reflected in that remark I won't dignify with comment. But I'll address your general attitude of hopeless negativism." – Everett "O Brother, where art Thou?"
That's because KP just looks and seems like such a nice guy...
They can’t help but be lured into a false sense of fairness before KP whips out his Simpson’s-style “HAHA” laugh and says “Fooled you!” like Dark Helmet
Blazers win!
Words have consequences.
Insulting other GMs has been made it to the internet and to the knowledge of other GMs in the League. It is being held against KP as some seem to think he had something to do with coining the term.
Many seem to think what they write does not mean anything. But the internet goes worldwide. What is printed is now permanent.
Stu Inman: a soft-spoken, witty and brilliant basketball guy -- who had so much to do with Portland's only championship. He believed that you won with not just great players, but with great people. (D Jaynes 2-2-07 Portland Tribune)
Rod.....this is not an attack on you personally but.....
……I have a hard time buying the concept that a bunch of Blazer fans using this (tired) term has any effect what so ever on how another team’s GM going to relate to KP. I just can’t see Ainge getting a call from KP and saying "Wait a minute, Kev……I need to check Blazer’s Edge…..Sorry …no can do on that trade…It appears that some of your unruley Blazer fans have been disparaging me on the interwebs…yeah they have been saying….oh I can’t say this outloud without crying a little bit ….they say that on the Ratliff/Bassy trade that you …PritchSlapped me (stage whisper). You know that that is take off of the “B” word, right? I know you think that this deal would be good for both our teams and I do too….but if I do it , your fans will probably call me names …I don’t think I could take that again…sorry I have to go now…goodbye"
"He wanted to come to a winner, Mrs. Turk wanted to go shopping….."
- Upper Left Corner
by 92wastheyear on Jul 5, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
The one thing that sorta makes what Rod saying true is
Someone like Canzano taking “Pritch Slap” and asking other GMs/execs what they thought of it, which he did back during the Miles fiasco.
Then those GMs tell Canzano “What, he gave himself that nickname? What a conceited jerk!” Of course, Canzano doesn’t correct them (or at least it appears that way), and Canzano riles up the enemy exec. And thus, Pritch Slap is out in the world, and in the head of enemy GMs, and, even worse, they think KP condones it/created it.
It is lame, but stuff spreads.
Here’s the Canzano article link (but you gotta pay for archived stuff on the Oregonian now? Huh?): Part of the article at least.
I was normally more on the side of what 12sharks is saying— not necessarily slapping woman, but slapping LIKE a woman (which, of course, is also naughty to say but not as bad). I also think it has outlived its usefulness/funniness/coolness. It is lame to say now. For that reason, and to prevent it’s further spread, I say we don’t use it no mo’.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Jul 5, 2009 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the second Canzano
got on board. It instantly lost all coolness and cannot be used.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 5, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey now
Miles got busted for weed in St louis, not memphis. and having grown up in STL, i’d bet the quality wasn’t worth the trouble…
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions
There's irony in the fact that Hedo preferred Toronto, when for many years
this has been an unwelcome destination…..exactly because of its foreign, somewhat European, multiculturall feel. Players have also worried that they don’t get much attention in America, a valid point. Well, now, finally, an international player — whose biggest loyalty is probably to the Turkish Olympic Team — sees things completely differently than, say, Allen Iverson — or Stevie Francis, who flat-out refused to play in Vancouver BC.
ignacio
they also didn't like canada due to the exchange rate difference to the US
for a while that difference had diminished but now the gap is widening again. one reason for HT to prefer Portland. Maybe the extra cash evens things out . . . .
put a body on 'em
Not one to second-guess KP and co.
but I’m glad we Turkodidn’t.
I’d much rather have a hammer-hard defensive PG vet or pick-and-roll expert backup PF than a super-spendy old man SF (that would eat up player-development time from Boom-Boom Batum, our future all-star SF).
Rudyculize: The act of Rudy making others look slow, dim and generally oafish.
http://www.myspace.com/y5k
What a day of emotions
Well what a day that was.
I was warming to the idea of Hedo, not his contract but what he could possibly do with the team. I have thought that this is the FA class for overs. Detroit started it with Gordon and Villa and it will only continue.
Now Hedo was plan A (possibly plan B, C and D as pointed out by Ben on twitter), big thing is what KP and Co do about plan B, personally at the moment I hope plan B doesn’t involve free agency as I’m not a huge fan of what is left, maybe Odom but not ideal in my opinion. Hopefully Lee and Marion aren’t plan B, don’t think either will fit that well with the Blazers.
So plan B might be via a trade, things here get a bit risky. Hopefully we get something out of the cap we have, wouldn’t be surprised to see the squad as is at the start of training camp, I would be slightly annoyed but not surprised.
This will be an interesting few months indeed.
Reposting my thoughts from the mega thread... plus mo'
What silliness.
Really, what the hell is Toronto thinking. This is the exact wrong move for them— we can overpay for a role player who fits us offensively and feel fine with it, for THEM they are basically making a 30 year old decent but not great player a franchise focal point.
Even if ya keep Bosh, ya think having no bench and paying him that much for 5 years is a GOOD thing? Horrible, horrible signng for Toronto. With how much those fans hate Bosh (seriously, read a Raptors fan site comments thread, they hate Bosh), they’re gonna wanna murder Hedo for what he means money wise and how they had to gut the team to afford him. He is a good role player, not an A-level player you build around. And if the Raptors don’t think they are rebuilding, they are crazy socks.
Perhaps, for the Blazers, this coulda’ turned out to be a Brand for the 76ers type deal. We could win by losing. I do like what Hedo could do for us offensively, but if we’re upgrading our SF I’d rather go elsewhere.
Really, the only thing I don’t like is that we liked Hedo and didn’t get him. If KP wanted him, I wanted him.
Oh well. This isn’t anywhere close to the end of the world, and losing out on him may be God winking at us and smiling. Toronto… you are sooooo dumb. Even Hedo at his absolute best isn’t a good fit and value for them.
I know a lot of people will wanna villify The Turk, but this is how it works. This is his last big contract, if not his last contract entirely, and he’s gotta make it count. If he’s truly getting 60 million from the Raptors, well, they win. Good for him. He’s has a career with an extremely short lifespan, and while it is a lot of money during that time, we’re still talking millions. It matters.
So, I don’t blame Hedo, and I’m happy he seems to have got himself a good deal. I don’t think he deserves the deal, and I think the Raptors are kinda really stupid to do it, so we stand to come out the winner still.
I would like what he did for us offensively, but he isn’t the end-all be-all FA pickup of a lifetime. There are still plenty of trades we can do that would be suh-weet. He may be the only plausible FA that would help us, but I usually HATE free agency since you spend out the nose for not much and almost always end up regretting it.
Mortimer
by Mortimer on Jul 4, 2009 3:38 AM PDT reply actions 22 recs
Rec'd. Nice job of capturing our sense of ambivalence. Now let's play FA musical chairs.
Definitely agree that this seems like a desperation move by Toronto. They are hoping to use Turk to keep Bosh, and are likely to loose Bosh and be stuck overpaying Turk. It doesn’t seem very bright to me.
As a true blue Portlander, It is hard to have our city rejected by anybody, but I lived in upstate New York for a year, and found that East Coast folk have funny ideas about the west, in general, and Portland. in particular. I guess Mrs. Turk must not have enjoyed her time in Sacramento. Oh well. Hope she likes snow.
I think Turk was a very creative way of addressing a lot of team needs on the offensive end. OTOH, I didn’t like the defense and I didn’t like the dollars. We lost a good, if unconventional, fit. At least we avoided overpaying.
Looking on the bright side, a number of teams with FA $s are now committed. There are definitely going to be some bargains. It is basically a game of musical chairs for the FAs. The guys who sign first get cushy seats, but this year, there are a lot more guys than chairs. Prices are going to start dropping as guys get worried that they are going to be left out. Another analogy that comes to mind is shopping at a liquidation sale. Lots of crap, but occasionally you can find something useful at a very good price.
I think Pritchard has a fair number of options, and I have no idea which way he will go. He could start looking for a lopsided trade, but if he had a really good one lined up, he probably wouldn’t have been working so hard to land Turk. It certainly will be interesting to see what KP comes up with next. Never a dull moment around here…..
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Leftovers don't taste as good.
Ken Berger, who broke the Artest to L.A. news a couple of days ago, commented in a radio interview that Hedo was the best of this summer’s free-agent group. The better a player, the greater the impact. If Hedo was the best, and there is disagreement over how good he really is, then losing him means there really isn’t anyone left for us except backups and role players.
I was on the Hedo bandwagon....
….I even wrote a Fanpost early yesterday morning laying out my reasons for thinking that Hedo was a good, if unconventional, fit. I am truly disappointed, but trying to look on the bright side.
We lost the best player and the best fit, but now we get to go bargain shopping in a buyer’s market.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Morty is the man, but we all knew that already. REC.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jul 4, 2009 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If hedo can run the pick-and-roll effectively w/ D. Howard
he and Bosh are going to be very dangerous. Not only can Bosh roll to the basket, he can pick and pop from distance too. Unstoppable.
"I've hacked into your brain. You're throwing a party and no one's showing up."
That's part of the problem with Bosh
He’ll pop a lot, which isn’t as effective as the roll, and isn’t that forceful going to the basket. I dunno if Hedo and Bosh will result in easier baskets for each other, just more jumpers.
Hedo fits Toronto in that they’re trying to make a Euro team full of jumpshooters, but he doesn’t fit their rebuilding they GOTTA do, and he’s the sort of player who does well with other good players. He’ll be responsible for more in Toronto, but without a center to dunk down shots on the pick n’ roll, his bread and butter prolly won’t be as effective.
I have no doubt he’ll do decent in Toronto, but he can’t make that team more than a bad lottery team. They need a real talent upgrade, not a good role player.
Mortimer
I ain't had a chance to check 'em yet
I’m surprised too! I thought they were wary of him.
Of course, they stole him from another team, and a lot of it was based on the strength of their city itself, and I know we’d be happy about a guy if he picked us because he liked Portland the city better.
Mortimer
two blogs that I’ve checked thus far are optimistic, even considering their utter lack of a bench.
They hate Bosh as well. Go figure.
Familiarity breeds contempt, as always
What I think a lot of us don’t see is that Bosh takes a LOT of jumpers, like LMA, but instead of being the secondary scorer like LMA is, Bosh is the main dude. He fades late in games, and while he can dribble a lot better than LMA can and take dudes off the dribble, he doesn’t go strong to the hoop.
I think he is an A-level co-star. A better version of Pau Gasol. As the main guy, ya won’t win anything. Ya put Bosh next to Roy, and he’d be amazing.
He’s just not a franchise player who will win games on his own, and since he’s supposed to be, Raptor fans get angry at him. I think it’s misplaced, since Bosh is really good, but just not a guy who can do it alone— and on that team, there isn’t a lot of help.
Mortimer
He’s a fantastic, fantastic player… sure, he takes jumpers, but he also draws fouls and is an efficient scorer.
Agreed on the co-star, but that shouldn’t make Toronto fans hate him. We liked Zach and he wasn’t anywhere near Bosh’s level.
Bosh is great, I agree
He’s just that 2nd tier of great.
I think the Raptor fans who hate him are silly and just don’t get it. They’re “sick” of him not taking over games, not winning on his own, all that sort of stuff— pretty much the same things Pau got in Memphis.
I’d say a lot of us disliked Zach greatly.
Bosh prolly gets more crap from dumb fans who might blame him for not leading the team to the next level, when they had won like 49 games, and then they got worse and worse. I blame the management, though. No way it is Bosh’s fault.
They don’t appreciate him and he will leave them and it is their fault.
Mortimer
looking back through that period in time, the majority of Blazer fans liked Zach’s game…. we definitely didn’t hate him in the way that a lot of Toronto fans hate Bosh.
If he was teamed with a great player, we’d see 2009 Mo Williams times ten – his national perception would immediately skyrocket. Not having a Batman to be Robin to isn’t his fault, for sure.
You happy Toronto? First Vince and now Bosh.
i think we hated zach for a diff reason tho. he was always getting in trouble, loafing to practice, fighting teammates (apparently the suckerpunch is his signature move) and half-zaching it on defense. thats what pissed Blazer fans off. However, Toronto seems to hate on Bosh because he isnt michael jordan. Not every player is able to just take over a game.
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 5, 2009 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
There are Raptors fans who think Bargnani is the player to build the franchise around
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 5, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Skeets & Co. seemed to hate it
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Mortimer = KP?
if not, Mortimer = genius
Blazers win!
by The X-man on Jul 4, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said!
GO
THE TEACHER ......come into my classroom "THE PAINT" for some tutelage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The rancor reflected in that remark I won't dignify with comment. But I'll address your general attitude of hopeless negativism." – Everett "O Brother, where art Thou?"
by Blazer1342 on Jul 4, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting
So the Raptors ended up paying $56 mil over 5 years to a 30 year old with average PER who is likely not gonna get any better… it’s not possible that Pritchard was just playing up Hedo’s value to get some other team to overpay, with no actual intention of signing him? I know, they agreed in principle, but if one side can break it as easily as Hedo did, the other side surely could as well.
1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21... I know...
"'Five Dollar Foot-long' is one of the best songs. That's a hot song. You've got the FreeCreditReport.com, and then 'Five Dollar Foot-long' comes on. When 'Five Dollar Foot-long' comes on, they should play that in the club. They should play all those in the club."
~ Ron Artest (link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-090515)
by FibonacciSequence on Jul 4, 2009 3:38 AM PDT reply actions
The Raptors could still balk
This could all be gamesmanship from both sides.
I doubt KP was building up Hedo’s value to screw over the Raptors though. I don’t see what we gain from that, unless it’s us doing a solid for the agent.
Morty
What if?
I started a rumor on Barrett’s blog of baiting Toronto to have to reanounce some players in order to make a move for one of the players they had to give up. I was thinking Calderon, but he is not on the list, darn it.
Anyway that would or could be our gain. That was just joking on my part, but now it could be a reality.
hg
by BBK on Jul 4, 2009 6:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't buy it
Nate just isn’t that kind of guy. Once I heard Nate wanted him, I knew it wasn’t a smokescreen.
Now who knows if Turk wanted an early-termination clause, or some such nonsense. That would certainly have made Portland pause (if we’re talking about Portland maybe being the ones to effectively break off talks).
by TheThinWhiteDuke on Jul 4, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
In a few years, Paul Allen, Kevin Pritchard, and Nate McMillan should thank Hedo Turkoglu for "jiliting" ...
them last night. To be frank, signing Turkoglu would’ve been a grave mistake that’d’ve screwed this team up for years. Again, I’m scared that Pritchard and his crew don’t quite fully grasp a certain thing known as roster construction.
I’ve seen that with the lack of a legitimate third-string pivotman for two straight seasons, rosters in 2007-2008 that included four point guards and in 2008-2009 that included five power forwards, et cetera.
Why was the front office intent on signing some declining, high-usage wing player when the team’s franchise cornerstone, Brandon Roy, was already employed in that capacity and just beginning his prime?
Why doesn’t the front office look to address the squad’s main flaw of perimeter defense? With all due respect to Turkoglu, he’s an average, albeit slow-footed defender against bigger wings and physically less imposing forwards; that isn’t a quality needed on this team.
If there was a course available on roster construction, I’d advise every member of the Trail Blazers basketball operations department and coaching staff to attend it.
by AK1984 on Jul 4, 2009 3:40 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The rosters could be more balanced
But sometimes you hold onto someone who has value, over moving them to balance the roster, especially on a team still developing.
I am sure they see the same things you see, AK.
Morticai
Why did the front office take Taurean Green and trade for Petteri Koponen's rights in the 2007 ...
NBA Draft when Steve Blake, Jarrett Jack, and Sergio Rodriguez were already on the roster? Portland should’ve kept the 42nd pick and taken Marc Gasol in lieu of Derrick Byars — who, despite being a solid swingman in my opinion, would’ve been superfluous with Martell Webster, James Jones, and Travis Outlaw already on the roster — as well as picked a defensive-minded wing in D.J. Strawberry rather than a tiny point guard in Green. The Josh McRoberts pick was questionable, too, since Raef LaFrentz filled the third-string power forward spot, but I can’t hate on Pritchard there due to me also liking the Dukie’s potential coming out of college.
I agree, shoulda' gotten Marc Gasol
And not taking him in the 2nd round is one of the few movies we can second guess KP on.
I guess he liked who he drafted and took a stab on Taurean. I don’t think that is a big deal, to take a stab on a Finnish prospect who still has value (though I don’t think he’s very good), and a guy who won a lot in college.
They got who they liked, never mind how the roster was constructed, since the roster wasn’t set in stone. While developing, might as well get all the dudes ya like and see how it shakes out. Even though most of the guys you mention didn’t end up meaning much, it didn’t hurt us any.
Mortimer
Basically
Unless the majority of your roster is set in stone and you know you want to keep them, drafting for roster balance isn’t a good idea. The roster will change too much to go draft a guy ya don’t think is as ‘good’ as someone else, but they fit you better for that season.
Even if they didn’t end up being the BPA, I’m sure KP was trying to get BPA.
M.
Oh, and forgot to mention
Now that we’re really trying to win, and win it all, roster balance is much more important than taking a flyer on a young athletic player who might become good in 5 years.
I’d be surprised if we don’t see moves made with this in mind.
Mortimer
Its great to be a fan
We can second guess every move but show me 1 GM that hasn’t made a mistake or 2. He doesn’t exist so I’m happy to roll with KP.
While I agree those picks weren't good,
I believe the Derrick Byars pick was made for Philly as part of a draft night trade. It doesn’t change the fact that Gasol is probably a better prospect than Koponen though.
rubbish
nitpicking 2nd round picks is classic logical fallacy. KP’s legacy and competence are not measured by whether 2nd round picks successfully round out a roster, or not. 2nd round picks can only be measured by hindsight, else the players in question would have had more predictable upside, and would not have been passed over.
2nd rounders succeed on a regular basis. That regularity remains effectively random. Roster balancing occurred in 2007 thusly:
“In addition to the selection of Greg Oden with the #1 pick in the 2007 NBA Draft, Pritchard orchestrated two more draft-day trades of significance:
* The Blazers sent forward Zach Randolph to the New York Knicks, along with guards Fred Jones and Dan Dickau, in exchange for Steve Francis, Channing Frye, and a trade exception.
* The team subsequently used the trade exception to acquire forward James Jones and the rights to the #24 pick in the draft, Rudy Fernández from the Suns, in exchange for cash.”
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
The Greg Oden selection, the Zach Randolph trade, and buying the draft rights to Rudy ...
Fernandez were all saavy moves on Kevin Pritchard’s part. I’m glad that Pritchard didn’t fall for the Kevin Durant hype, either; he’s one of the most pitiful wing defenders in the entire NBA and incapable of being the #1 option on a decent team. Yep, Durant is Tracy McGrady: Version 2.0.
But McGrady is a playmaker
The thing I’ve been MOST disappointed with Durant is, his total lack of playmaking ability.
M—
I'd been more surprised if Durant showed up with playmaking ability
Given that he was a jacker @ UT. I mean, people were so overhyping his rebounding and his defense (shotblocking) based on stats, like since Durant averaged more rebounds than Oden he’s a better rebounder. To which, I was like “Really, have you ever since Durant play? He can’t guard anyone in the perimeter so he stands in the middle of the zone on a team where everyone else is shorter than 6’6”. Of course he’s going to have lot of board when you play with bunch of midgets."
no doubt
when mcgrady was healthy, he could score at will in a variety of ways. Durant is just a great shooter
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 5, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed. "D" was our biggest weakness last year, and it drives me crazy when people say a lack of "O" doomed us last year in the playoffs...
not saying we don’t need more from our SF, but how many teams have a 7’6 dude patrolling the paint, with Artest & Battier on the perimeter…
also, folks don’t seem to realize that Outlaw, our main SF in that series: a.) rather poorly played “help D,” and b.) does not have the athleticism to match up well with Artest, or quite a few other SF’s in the league (jumping high does not give you strength or lateral quickness)
H*DO would have helped overall, but at that price, there are some serious other options out there, and I think by this June, or the year after that, KP himself might be happy the way this all played out
I hope you get your GM job soon.....
…..you certainly don’t lack confidence.
Personally, I will take KP’s track record any day. He has completely rebuilt the roster in three years. He hasn’t overpaid for a single contract. Most of his player evaluations have been very good. Overall, he has accumulated what must be a record amount of young talent in a very short amount of time.
Certainly, you, and others, can pick nits and complain. KP doesn’t draft an undersized PF with very questionable knees, and a number of folks act as if the sky has fallen. KP tries to land a guy who addresses many of the teams offensive needs in a creative fashion, and folks complain again. Certainly, you have every right to express your opinion. I recognize that second guessing the GM is a time honored tradition in the fan world. I just find it amazing that you choose to do so, with this GM, at this time.
I hope I don’t get banned for expressing my opinion. This isn’t intended as a personal attack. It is meant to express my continuing amazement, in general, at the many fans who are willing to substitute their judgement for that of a management team that has been so successful.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, I'm definitely one to rag on even the littlest, most minute details, with roster construction ...
being one of my more trivial rants. Anyway, with regards to DeJuan Blair, I’m not the most vocal poster here about not drafting him — for Norsktroll, as11osu, jksnake99, and a few others were more upset about that than myself — however, I was certainly irritated by the Dante Cunningham pick. Concerning Cunningham, I don’t see him being anything past D-League fodder for a couple of seasons. So, even if Blair’s knees are so shot that the organization avoided picking him for potential injury reasons, it still doesn’t justify the Cunningham selection.
cunningham and pendergraph were 4 year college kids in bigtime programs.
They can both play right now. No seasoning or extra coaching really needed. Dejuan Blair on the other hand is not only an injury liability, but he only registered 2 years of college. Regardless, it’s irrelevant. None of these three players are the future of the blazers.
1 more note
i don’t think dujuan blair worked out for the blazers either. cunningham and pendergraph both did. KP and Nate got to evaluate their talent better and converse with these kids to see where their heart and mind is . It makes a difference.
That's funny.
When Blair becomes fat again because they took away all his weight loss drugs and his knees explode into bits of shredded paper then it will be clear it wasn’t a mistake.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 4, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
but what about the 2 championships he helped San Antonio win in the meantime?
and all the all-star appearances… j/k… but seriously. Two even remotely healthy years and it’s gigantic win. Where were all the people calling Roy a bad pick because he had knee issues? It’s an obstacle, but it doesn’t change what his actual value is while on the basketball court.
The only player ever heavier to have a max vertical of 33 inches or above was Shaq. Seriously, a 280 pound man jumping 33 inches straight up is pretty incredible. His knees now seem to be just fine with him doing things like that.
Not sure max vertical is the best measure for a big man?
Isn’t no-step vertical more approximately what is needed in a game. Or even better – No-step Max Vertical Reach?
I admire Blair for what he has made of his body and his record. I cannot judge how he will play in the league or how he would have meshed for the Blazers.
My statement more had to do with Blair's knee
than the particular meaningfulness of that measurement. Blair has the measurements, intangibles and stats of an elite prospect. The question NVE brings up is about that knee.
I’d say putting up the 2nd best vertical of any kind, in the last 20 years for a player over 270 pounds (only Shaq was better) speaks a lot to what Blair is physically capable of doing.
Not sure...
you can retire a guy with one bad knee (who took weight loss drugs) and then sign another guy with two bad knees.(who probably took weight loss drugs) All while your appeal with the league is still pending. Especially if the doctors who told you to retire Darius are also telling you to pass on Blair, which I believe it was hinted that they did.
Plus Pritchard already said he wouldn’t play a kid if it could seriously effect his health down the road. Maybe it was a ethics issue more than a talent issue. Especially since it was reported that a ton of team doctors simply refused to sign off on the guy.
I can’t believe I’m talking about the second most over-discussed player in a post about the mos over-discussed player. Can we just ban any mention of Blair or Hedu from now on?
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 4, 2009 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Roy may have bad knees, but
from what I understand Blair doesn’t have any ACL’s left. I think there is a big difference between bad knees and structurally unsound knees.
Nice Even Handed Analysis...
…inwhich, I myself am probably incapable of doing right now.
One question, do you think it’s legitimate in regards to Hedo as a Blazer fan to feel like we were “played”? I’m not being paranoid, but I do.
I know in hindsight and 20/20 it’s easy to say, I ALWAYS knew…but I swear I didn’t feel good about Hedo becoming a Blazer after listening and watching his interview in PDX. He seemed distant and flat and I noticed that whenever anyone directly pushed him on his desire to be in Portland his answer was non-commital. I can’t say it was anything much more than instinct, but I had the feeling just watching the interview that he wasn’t really very high on being part of The Blazers.
So what has KP always said about ANY player, potential or otherwise? We want Players that want to be here and be part of what is happening here. If that definition doesn’t apply we don’t want them.- Hedo doesn’t want us? We don’t want Hedo.
I just can’t shake the feeling that we were Played by The Player. And in a way, if it’s true, then I also feel that we dodged a bullet, that isn’t a quality in an individual I want on our team. I know we are talking Millions of Dollars, but it’s still a case of someone going back on his word. How can I like that?
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
I'm not sure how we were "played"
We were obviously courting him. Not the other way around. Sounds like he went home to discuss it with the wife, and she had the final say.
Agree moreso with Krang
that integrity counts. Personally, I like my sports heroes with a dose of brash backed up with super performance; players like Reggie, Ali, MJ. Hedo isn’t brash, just sneaky. Brandon Roy brings everything to the court that Hedo can’t; a “fantastic” relationship with the people, leadership on the team and no nights off. He’s everything Hedo is not.
Every interview I heard this week, by anyone who knows Turk, indicated what an outstanding guy he is...
My guess, from the descriptions available, is that “momma wasn’t happy.” Turk agreed to a verbal deal Thursday evening, and then went back to his hotel and called his wife. Whatever her reasons, she pushed him hard, and he changed his mind.
I think he likely got played as much as we did. He wanted to come to a winner, Mrs. Turk wanted to go shopping….
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
A lot of assumptions here
We don’t really know that Mrs. Turk had anything whatsoever to do with what went down.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Down the road
I think we’ll be fine, it’s not like we’re lacking at the 3. I was ready to accept it but the whole thing felt off from the start; I think at some point in the next couple years we’ll all be saying, “Whew, aren’t you glad we didn’t pay that guy a kazillion dollars?”
KP has always been good at getting his guy, we might learn a whole lot about him and his staff in the next few days. Do they panic? Shift to plan B? Raise free-agent money by marketing “Hedon’t” T-shirts? Whatever comes next we have a solid team already and the Rose Garden should be a lot of fun if Toronto comes to visit.
That's true...
Toronto just became one of the must see games of the year. It’s going to be extra fun beating them now.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
It'll be extra easy also
They were already bad, this isn’t gonna help ’em.
Hedo is a guy who would help other better players, not be a dude all on his own. Maybe I’m way wrong, but I can’t see this helping Toronto.
M—
What is with the overinflated has been/never were Sac players?
I mean, when do the Scott Pollard sweepstakes start?
by zaruga on Jul 4, 2009 5:14 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I bid One Dollar
and the rights to shave his head when he shows up with one of those stupid haircuts. – Elgin
Without you out there, we're nowhere here
You know who else is going to be really happy when they clobber Toronto?
Orlando. Toronto fans STILL boo Vince Carter every time he touches the ball. The Magic-Raptors rivalry is going to be a real spectacle.
No different than Boozer and Cleveland...
Simply because of what he pulled on Gordon Gund. This isn’t a whole lot different, except that what Boozer did was deliberate and calculated…
I don’t give Turkoglu that much credit. He’s just doing what his boss…errr, wife…tells him to do…
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
I agree
We are in a nice place. We we are going to be a great team with or without a another player. All we was doing is tweaking our team We did not need a new player to survive.
In fact, if Turk was just going to give us more offense, We can get that from Rudy, Batuum, Martell, and Outlaw (sometimes)
I am not a coach. I am not second guessing. It is just IMO that our SF’s and Rudy was just used primarily for shooting the 3. IMO, Rudy can play the side pick and roll and get the ball to Oden. He did great at getting the ball to our bigs anyway. He can drive, shoot, create off the dribble for himself and olthers, and if he bulks up a little he can play good D and he is already good rebounder and ball stealer.
We already have what Turk would have given us and like someone above said he would be a add on not a piece to the puzzle. Of course if KP was thinking that Martell is too questionable than maybe that makes Turk more of a piece.
The players we had last year is now the vets Nate seeks. They can teach Pendergraph and Cunningham the ropes and give them leadership.
Well anyway I agree.
hg
by BBK on Jul 4, 2009 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions
First Blair and now this
This is the summer of KP’s failures. His Midas touch has turned into a Mr. Hankey touch. I how have no faith in him improving the Blazers.
- Carl
I can't wait for summer league
So we can see how else KP failed.
I wish Doug Collins was willing to be a GM so we could fire KP and hire Doug Collins.
Mortimer
Oh, God, don't give me nightmares, Mort
That Doug Collins whine would get old in like 5 seconds.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Yes, isn't amazing how KP suddenly went from visionary to dolt in a couple of weeks....
……maybe you should take up a collection to get him some glasses and a hearing aid, because so many folks around here seem to think he has suddenly gone deaf and blind.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Look up Tom in the dictionary. It says: don't take seriously
Definition of DISASTER:
Darius Miles Letter meets Hedo meets Thank You Posts meets Bedge Challenge.
My post was sarcastic. I thought I was joining in the fun.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Look, I don't always get TIH humor, but I did get it this time....
…..it is bad enough that I have impaled myself on Tom’s humor on a couple of occasions. Now, you want to give me a hard time when I get the joke? ; -)
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I'M SORRY FOR BEING DUMB
Caps in honor of Mort
Definition of DISASTER:
Darius Miles Letter meets Hedo meets Thank You Posts meets Bedge Challenge.
It is all good, clean fun....
……although sometimes Tom’s mind is dirty…..
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
really?
it’s not like KP didn’t do everything in his power to convince turkaglu to become a blazer. It wasn’t going to happen because Turkaglu already had his mind made up. What do you expect. Not even Billy Mays could have changed his mind.
Advantage: Top Level "Free" and "Restricted" Free Agents Are Now Going To Wait On The Blazers Before Signing...
We still have quite a few options in free agency, and the competition is now much less…pretty much OKC & Memphis, but they are both pretty cheap, the options I like…
1.) Lamar Odom or attempt to “steal” Artest (it’ll at least drive $$$ up for L*kers on Odom front)
2.) David Lee (Restricted, could be had)
3.) Marvin Williams (Restricted, “maybe” we could snag him)
4.) Brandon Bass (Restricted)
5.) Nate Robinson (my least favorite on this list)
6.) Josh Childress (Bibby same scenario) (not a “fit,” but could decide to sign him as an asset, or reduce ATL matching for Marvin, as insiders say they’ll match any ‘reasonable’ offer for J Chill)
7.) Gortat (he’d most likely be used as an “asset,” but could be had on a good deal right above the mid-level)
Some of these seem better than others, but it is of note, if we go into FA thinking about acquiring an “asset,” they can’t be traded till Dec. 15th, but guys like Gortat, J Chill, Brandon Bass, & David Lee could be guys that are very attractive to other teams…could really help us upgrade later on, a position we really need…a lot of teams would be psyched with Gortat at 6.5, which we could get him for…could also make Pryz available in a trade right now…rambling…
I have been flacking for a Bass pickup forever. And David Lee. Either one of those guys would help down low, where the team really needs to be STRONG to do well in the playoffs...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Chris Anderson is not on the list?
I read that he is probably expected to re-sign with Denver, but I wouldn’t mind putting in a bid for him.
Dont like the list
1) Lamar Odom isn’t leaving L.A……………..PERIOD! (but i would love to have him)
2)David Lee…………overrated and doesn’t answer are problem. we need someone who can help Brandon.
3)i don’t have an opinion on Williams…….so moving on……..
4)Brandon bass would be nice. but he wants to be a starter. and that isn’t gonna happen.
5)boo
6)not interested
7)why????
my retort
1. Odom really doesnt want to play for the Lakers. He does not like that team, he just likes the city. If we offered enough he would bail. LA wont offer more than 7 or 8. If we went 10 for 3 years plus an option we could get him to play SF for us.
2. David Lee would be good but he has to agree to be a backup. Prolly not gonna happen
3. I would LOVE to get Williams at a good price. Problem is, ATL will pay him good money, we would have to overpay to get him and frankly hes not worth overpaying for.
4. YES PLEASE.. he doesnt have to start. He isnt starter good.
5. totally with you.. BOOOOOOOOO
6. If he is affordable, I really like him. He is a good 2 year starter at SF splitting min 50/50 with Nic and then backing him up. Again its about price.
7. Gortat signing with Mavs, but yeah, why do we need another C
by GreatOden'sRaven on Jul 5, 2009 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Josh Childress is a good fit.
Great defender, point forward, highest TS% for his position by a mile.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 4, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions
KP has sooooo many options and assets to improve this team....
he will only “fail” if he bombs on quite a few other opportunities
I'm celebrating.
We dodged a bullet. A self-inflicted bullet bullet, which is the hardest kind of bullet to dodge.
When Hedo’s lumbering around and drawing 8 figures while barely justifying a starting spot in two years for a hollowed out Bosh-less Raptors squad, we’ll all remember this as a very good day for the Blazers.
I disagree
Turk was definitely a mixed blessing: great fit offensively, but overpriced and not much better than Trout defensively. But calling Turk “a self-inflicted wound” is a total overreach.
Do you think KP and Nate have suddenly lost 50 IQ points? Do you not see any of the upside Turk would have brought? Those of you who think you are smarter than the team that put this amazing collection of young talent together really amaze me.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
yes, because nobody ever makes mistakes.
KP is a smart guy and he’s mostly made good decisions (although I consider the Durant/Oden decision to be an all-time blunder) but he’s human.
Hedo might’ve been the best available free agent, but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t have been an albatross on our roster. He’s terrible defensively and his offense is extremely overrated. Yes, it would’ve been cute to watch him run side pick and rolls with Oden, and I agree that we could use another playmaker on the team, but paying a very average 30 year old player 50 million over 5 is a terrible terrible plan.
Between this and the now confirmed stories that they were pursuing Shaq, my confidence in our roster decision-makers has been very shaken. I’m hoping they get back on track.
by howlingfantods on Jul 4, 2009 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I think it would be a blunder for me to second guess someone who knows a lot more than I do.
To me it is pretty simple, KP has an outstanding track record. KP has access to way more information than any fan. Until he makes enough mistakes to warrant being second guessed, I will keep my powder dry.
The jury is very much out on Durant/Oden. I have a great deal of confidence in the decision that KP made.
I think rumors of Hedo’s defense being “horrible” are greatly exaggerated. He did a decent job on Pierce, and didn’t struggle anymore with LeBron and Kobe than most other perimeter guys in the league. His feet are a bit slow, and he is not better than an average defender, but I don’t see him as terrible. His PER isn’t that great, but I think a lot of that was the fact that with Nelson out, he had to try to do too much and that hurt his efficiency. I believe he would have filled a lot of team needs, and I think he would have made a lot of other Blazers look better. Obviously, a five year deal would have been overpaying, but if he had been as good a fit as both KP and Nate seemed to think, that would have been a reasonable price. He are going to be in luxury tax hell for a long time anyway.
Why, in the heck, would the third hand Shaq rumors make you draw any conclusions about KP? Seriously, we have no idea what went down. KP is known for making a ton of calls. He may have called Kerr for an initial conversation. Kerr may have mentioned it to Shaq, who nipped it in the bud. None of that says KP would have done a deal. Most likely, KP was just exploring his options, that is what a good aggressive GM does.
Obviously, you can and should express your opinion. All I am trying to say is that it seems ill advised to assume that KP is blundering about making bad decisions when his track record is so strong. Based on that record, he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I don’t mean to attack you personally, the fact that so many have second guessed KP has sort of rubbed me raw.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions
So Nelson's been out Hedo's whole career?
I mean, his PER is pretty much the same this past season as his career average.
Thanks for giving me permission for expressing my opinions. I appreciate that you think KP can do no wrong, and I was right with you two years ago. But telling everyone who disagrees with any move that they make that they must be wrong because they disagree with the sainted KP is both a very uninteresting argumentative gambit to read and doesn’t exactly do anything to convince anybody who disagrees with you.
by howlingfantods on Jul 4, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
To me, it is really a question of tone.
I don’t mind when folks say they disagree with this or that proposed move. I don’t care for second guessing in general, and I think it is ridiculous to second guess second round picks.
I said nothing about KP being infallible. The guy puts on his pants one leg at a time. I did say that I think he has developed a very strong track record, and suggested that such a record warrants giving him the benefit of the doubt. Perfect choices are rare, most choices are a matter of weighing and balancing costs and benefits. I may not always agree with every decision that KP makes, but I try to see his point of view. If he does something, I assume that there is at least some logic to his moves.
I’m fifty, and the world has humbled me a bit. I try to avoid hubris. Substituting my judgement as a fan for a group of knowlegable professionals with a strong track record, certainly risks being labelled hubris.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
That's reasonble.
And, again, I agree with you that KP’s track record is pretty good. But he’s still just a young guy, and even the best GMs of all time have made many many mistakes. This is one where I think KP and Nate especially got seduced by the upside and didn’t adequately weigh the downsides.
I don’t see anything in my original post that is objectionable in “tone” that you felt compelled to put my opinion against KPs track record. Do you go around and put posts after anyone remotely disagreeing with KP’s personnel moves and write about how fake-amazed you are that anyone can disagree with them? And where did I claim I’m smarter than KP? Talk about hubris, or transferred hubris, or whatever it is.
by howlingfantods on Jul 4, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh and also
hedo didn’t struggle against Pierce, Kobe and lebron because he never guarded those guys, are you kidding me? SVG would never give Hedo those assignments, he hides Hedo by putting him on Ariza, Scalabrine or Baby or Ben Wallace.
Those guys you listed were guarded by Lee, Pietrus or Rashard. Yes, that’s how bad Hedo is; SVG has to hide him defensively by using Rashard instead.
This btw is the gigantic disastrous problem with this plan. Who guards the Kobes and Melos of the world? Roy? He’d run out of gas to do what he needs to do offensively. Hedo? That’s a disaster in the making, ifn yall thought our defense was poor last season, that would’ve been claw-your-eyes-out terrible.
Also the reports that Nate was the one really pushing for hedo makes me wonder, again, on what basis he has this reputation as a defensive coach. But that’s a rant for another time.
by howlingfantods on Jul 4, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I watched almost every game in the playoffs
Hedo shared responsibility for guarding all three guys. Pietrus and Lee were in frequent foul trouble. Hedo isn’t quick, but he is long. Again, I’m not saying he is above average. I’m saying he isn’t terrible. I think Hedo’s overall defense suffers from the same problem as Roy’s: both guys are carrying so much offensive responsibility that it hurts the consistency of their defensive effort. I think it would have helped both guys to share the offensive play-making responsibilities and would have left both guys with more energy for the defensive end.
I think reasonable folks can disagree on these issues. Defense is very tough to quantify. Given KP’s record, I just think it is questionable to speak in a definitive and dismissive tone about his proposed moves. It would have been interesting to see how it would have turned out. You may have been right, I just would be a bit less certain.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with you on almost everything in this post, but it baffles me that you like Kevin Durant.
As a fellow LaMarcus Aldridge basher, you should realize that Durant’s digustingly vile defense is so piss-poor that he’ll never lead a team to a playoff series victory as the #1 option. Heck, if Tracy McGrady’s career has taught us all anything, it’s that wing players must be two-way superstars to truly make an impact as franchise cornerstones. Durant, without a doubt, is NOT and NEVER will be a two-way superstar.
Bashing Durant?
You’ve gotta be kidding me right. You would not be bashing him right now if he was playing home games @ Key.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
nope, AK has been a Durant hater, even with the Sonics in Seattle. He has a lot of comments archived on the Sonic blogs proving this.
Never say never.
I think you exaggerate his defensive shortcomings. He was terrible guarding SGs but not so terrible (sometimes even halfway decent) guarding SFs.
Kevin Durant is a 20 year old guy who takes improving his game very very seriously and has demonstrated outstanding work ethic. He may not be a great defender now but I’d be very surprised if he’s not at least pretty good on that end within two or three years.
by howlingfantods on Jul 5, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
"We dodged a bullet. A self-inflicted bullet, which is the hardest kind of bullet to dodge."
This cracked me up. (And it’s true!)
I've thought about everything that Dave wrote. Toronto will regret it, Portland dodged their own bullet, and
we’d be trying to dump his contract in 2 years anyway. I hate to say it but KP revealed to us that he is capable of doing something really dumb.
We mighta' lost him by being smart
4 year deal with a 5th year team option, that sort of thing. I think that’d be fair, and fits the sort of contract we’ve given everyone else under KP.
If KP liked him, then I want us to get him, but even if he is playing at a similar level by age 34 I don’t think anyone will think we blew it by not getting the honor of overpaying for him.
It makes a helluva lot more sense for us to overpay Hedo than for Toronto to. When you’re up against a team REALLY willing to sacrifice and blow a lot of money that they don’t really have for a player, it’s hard to “win”.
Mortimer
For TOR, the move makes absolutely no sense
For us, some, but for them it is idiotic…I can’t believe some of their beat writers are happy about it, it must come with the territory of just being happy you’ll be 500
Does anyone else think KP went into this negotiation with tunnel vision?
Seems like he had his eyes set on HT and nobody else. The other potential signees went ahead and agreed to deals while we were busy going overboard in our courtship of just one player. We did everything short of throwing HT a parade and it seems like the other teams just picked up the phone and said “Hey, you want to play here for X amount of money?” “Great, welcome to ____, we are happy to have you”. Well the music has stopped now and the Blazers are left without a chair. I’m not saying I was big on HT, but I’d rather have something to show than have wasted the most crucial days of the FA period only to have the world pass us by in the mean time.
Maybe basketball just isn't your game. I know, let's have a spelling contest.
Aside from Ariza
Who I think Batum will be better than in a year or two, who else would ya like?
This is a weak FA class, and I always figured we’d use the cap space in a lopsided trade. I can’t say I’m sad that we’ll be forced to use it that way, either.
We didn’t want Ben Gordon, Charlie V, Artest (in a perfect world maybe, but we aren’t the right team for him), and don’t likely want Kidd or Andre Miller. To me, if we had to get a FA, Hedo was likely the best pick. Doesn’t mean he was the best pick ever, but the best for right now with what is available.
The guys who have been signed already aren’t really guys we’re looking for.
Lopsided trade, here we come!
Mortimer
On the "lopsided trades" who do you like?...
and I only want some very realistic possibilities, not Devin Harris, or even Jose Calderon styled thoughts…
I like Gerald Wallace a lot
Though the concussion thing worries me. He makes a VERY fair amount for what he does, and is also a bit of a point forward. Plus, he can be a terrific defender and havoc creator. He is the Robertcat’s best player, but he isn’t an A-Level franchise player, and they are struggling financially PLUS the owner is known as wanting to sell. Wallace isn’t going to really entice a new owner as much as a lower roster salary would.
For PGs, I like Hinrich. Better defender, not great offensively but better than Blake, etc. He also makes a fair amount, as long as he is your starter and not your backup to your #1 pick PG.
I like the idea of a point forward a lot, but I really want to improve ourselves defensively. I woulda’ been happy with Hedo and Hinrich, and Wallace and Hinrich would be the bee’s knees.
Mortimer
You and I are close to the same page
I’m not big at all on Hedo but I too would push for Gerald Wallace. I even like a Marvin Williams possibility although I think he is just a version of Batum in two or three years with a few more pounds on him. I also am right with you on the Kirk call. Some sights are already claiming that an Andre Miller signing is an all but done deal. That scares me…a lot.
Maybe basketball just isn't your game. I know, let's have a spelling contest.
I really like the Marvin possibility...drawback, is that the more I think about it, the more likely it is that ATL matches the contract
…even with their traditional “cheapness/bad ownership,” still intriguing, bc if you had a backroom deal with ATL, you might get them to appease their fan base by taking on 3 mill, Outlaw, for a scrub, immediately after the signing (aka, they’d let us sign him, knowing our intentions on Trout afterwards)…
Also, 3 years from now I just love a forward position of Marvin, Batum, LMA at all times…
However the real Improvement for this team is the improvement of Oden
Oden coming into his own takes us from a good team to a great team.Here’s to hoping it happens sooner rather then later
A major part of Hedophilia was precisely because he was viewed as a compliment to GO.
Side pick and roll. Able to pass into the post because of his height, etc.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Thats why I was OK with Hedo
However Oden’s improvement depends on Oden more then any other factor.How hard he is working according to the reports I have heard is the best possible news
Absolutely agreed.
Hope GO picked up a little bit of Bayless’ HOF work ethic. To be fair, I don’t think anyone has ever really questioned GO’s effort. We consistently heard good things during his micro rehab. I think the “GO lacks drive” meme was an unfortunate side effect of the knee injury.
In any case, I think GO is the fulcrum for the team’s improvement.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Since we haven't heard much Andre Miller talk from local media
I’d bet it was his agent spreading those rumors. Some even think he started (or at least made them overblown) the rumors that Rudy was incredibly upset about the Hedo signing, in an attempt to make the Blazers think twice about signing him and optiing for a PG instead.
Miller is a better player than Blake, but a guy who needs the ball to be effective and can’t shoot or defend very well doesn’t seem like a good fit. Plus, us being such a halfcourt team and all… if we were more of a transition team, I could see Miller fitting better, but not this team, right now, and at his age.
I’d rather just have Blake going into the season, over signing Miller now.
Mortimer
It'll be reallllly interesting when KP gives his next interview...
he can go in a lot of directions, and I think a whole lot of fever pitched to see what Plan B is
Depends on the price.
Miller is a better quarterback and obviously a much better penetrator. I haven’t seen him play that much, but my impression is that he is a better defender than Blake. What is your take?
If the answer is yes, and if he could be had for cheap enough, he seems like he would still be worth considering.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
arg...
no more kirk hinrich talk please. If we are all going to complain that paying Hedo $10 mil was too much (and it is too much), then how does paying kirk hemlich $9 make any sense? Hedo is a far better player than kirk, and if you have to give up talent to get kirk, then it really doesn’t make any sense to pay a guy who is marginally better than blake and give up talent to get him.
by retirecards51 on Jul 4, 2009 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think it was the yearly contract for Hedo people had a problem with
He’s worth between 8 to 12 million, over 5 years.
It’s just that we’d be paying him the most, when he is 34/35, and that isn’t optimal.
Hinrich makes a fair amount of money for his prime.
Morty
yeah turk is older
but hinrich kinda stinks even in his “prime” years. i just don’t get the crazy love for a guy who is marginally better blake (not 2x as good). let’s not hype kirk into being a top end defender as many here would like to do, b/c he is not.
by retirecards51 on Jul 4, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Personally
I think Hinrich is a very good defender, one of the best in the league at his position (and how many good defenders at the PG position are there?), and his ability to defend was on full display in the 2009 playoffs.
On offense, he is better than Blake in almost every category— pick and roll, goes to the line more, better midrange game, similar 3 point shot. He isn’t a great offensive player on his own, but when compared to Blake he is an improvement.
He’s a more athletic version of Blake, which is a better version overall. I think the pay is worth it… he’ll only be making around 8 million a year for the years we’d be paying him. For a starting PG, that is more than fair.
If ya don’t agree, that’s cool, it’s just how I see it.
Mortimer
That's fair
i guess we just disagree on where kirk and his monetary value fall. I have a difficult time justifying Kirk as the 3rd highest paid blazer (after Roy/LA extensions), and the need to give up talent in order to get him (as opposed to a FA signing that cost the blazers $$ but nothing else). I suppose 8-9 mil isn’t too bad for a starting PG, i just don’t think of kirk as significantly much more than blake (a solid #2 PG). i’m not saying i think Blake is the answer at starting PG, but i don’t think kirk is either.
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I saw that photo but only wondered that he didn't look much taller than KP
And that KP looked like he gained a little weight, so he didn’t tuck in his shirt.
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Yeah--could it be that even a defense-minded coach like Nate lost his perspective?
Some cliches are accurate—e.g., “defense wins championships.” I tried to get on board the Turk bandwagon. But there’s no way that a rapidly-aging Turk would have improved the Blazers defensively. Au contraire.
But as Nate said the other day, the NBA is in an “arms race” right now, and it’s pretty tough to sit passively on the sidelines. For “arms race,” substitute “shark feed”…
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
I think in a roundabout way, he'd improve our defense
For most of this debate, I argued he’d hurt our defense because he’d replace Batum in the starting lineup.
But, over a 48 minute game, he’d REALLY be replacing Outlaw, and he’s a better defender than Outlaw. Batum would still get his normal amount of minutes.
So, over an entire game, by replacing Outlaw, Hedo woulda’ helped our defense.
I agree it isn’t a huge deal not to get him. Hedo seems more KP than Nate to me, but Nate loves shooters who can pass and play smart.
Morty
This has been my thinking
Hedo replaces Outlaw and you have a better team. I have always countered the Outlaw trade talk with a “make sure they get a 4th quarter scorer” argument before they trade Travis. I think Hedo was the move that made KP more comfortable to move Outlaw and his ability to hit big shots.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
I dunno
Nate has matched Trout almost exclusively vs power forwards because A) Trout can’t score effectively vs threes and B) Trout can’t guard most threes. Everyone persists in thinking that Trout is a three and that Martell is a two, but neither can play those positions competently (they can’t handle the ball well enough, for one thing). Even the Roy-as-point guard talk is unrealistic to me. Brandon Roy is a great player, but he can’t guard point guards.
Turk is an anomoly: a power forward who can handle and pass because he started out as a point guard. So he CAN play the four or the three. Although he’s gonna get burned some defensively at the three spot.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
And yes: Batum will likely be a better version of Ariza in a year or two
If you noticed, Ariza looked great offensively as long as Kobe fed him for wide-open three-point opportunities. But when that didn’t happen, Ariza could be counted on to miss by a country mile.
If the Magic made Turk look better than he is, that’s doubly true of the Lakers & Ariza. I’m not expecting either Turk or Ariza to look nearly as good with his new squad.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Agreed. But...
I have always thought we can win a title in the next 2 years, KP obviously thought so too…
but Batum is not that guy we need now and it will be unfortunate if we have to wait for 2 more years…not saying we should mortgage the future for the present…
but PDX fans are really settling for mediocrity if they are simply satisfied waiting till the “cake is done,” when we are right on the cusp of extending legitimate championship aspirations by a year or two
Batum is not the guy we need *now*?
He’s already our best wing defender. I feel very comfortable with him now.
I want a healthy Webster.
Best pickup the Blazers could make.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
KP trying so hard to sign Hedo
gives me a bad feeling about Martell’s chances of playing next season.
Gearld wallace..........
I like that. If we got him at our SF spot, I’d be very happy. But what do you think they’d want for him.
Why do say Devin Harris is unrealistic?
There was a recent Wendell Maxey post about the Nets possibly being willing to consider offers for Devin Harris.
“Back to Devin Harris real quick: would you like to see him running the break with Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge? Many would. Because he could have been had on draft night. The New Jersey Nets were reportedly shopping him for expiring contracts and draft picks. Not sure if he is still on the market, but it’s worth Kevin Pritchard inquiring about with Rod Thorn.” 7/2/09 Beyond the Beat
Don't know what his sources are, but the only rumors that I heard centered around a deal with Memphis that would have landed them Rubio in return
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Ariza would have been great
and for the money that the lakers got Artest for I’d take him too (yes I know he’s a headcase). I think that if the Blazers would have shown any interest in Ariza he would have been a fool to chose Houston over us.
Maybe basketball just isn't your game. I know, let's have a spelling contest.
I guess KP and Friends are gambling on Batum being as good, or better
And that is a gamble I would take.
I’d rather hope for a lopsided trade, over signing Ariza, personally, though he is a very good role player.
I just don’t think we’re the right team with the right personalities to rein in a Ron Artest type. He needs strong personalities, ESTABLISHED personalities and starpower, to get him to play right. And even then, he’ll shoot you out of games and coast on his defensive rep for 50 games out of the year.
The Blazers team we’ll have in 3, 4, 5 years can handle an Artest, but not the team we got now. He complimented Roy very much, but I doubt he’d defer to Roy and do whatever he is asked to do.
Mortimer
Fair point
but in texas Ariza would make approximately $5 million dollars more than he would if he took the same contract in PDX (b/c of texas not having state tax). i think ariza (like hedo) didn’t really care where he went as long as he got as much $$ as possible.
by retirecards51 on Jul 4, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Isn’t Ariza persona non grata (sp?, personally unacceptable or unwelcome) in the Pacific Northwest after the Rudy incident? Seemed like he was gonna be charged with assault & battery.
Not to me
Ariza’s move on Rudy was reckless, dangerous and stupid. But not intentional or malicious. I don’t hold any grudges against him. But I don’t think the Blazers need him as long as Batum is on board.
by IntergalacticP on Jul 4, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Good analogy on the musical chairs, but
I just think there are too many options out there for us to not improve our team this summer, and if we “go young,” with a signing, it might not help as much as H*DO for the next couple of years, but it could help our team in about 2 much more dramatically than H*DO
GM second guessing seems to be more communicable than the swine flu....
…..and is probably more dangerous.
by upper left corner on Jul 4, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would've rooted for Turkoglu, but I'm glad
that Portland isn’t likely to get him. He dominates the ball and that’s not really what Portland needs. I would rather have Artest or Ariza to beef up the perimeter defense. I can’t believe Artest is only getting $18M from the Lakers. Portland should give him a call and offer more though I don’t think it’s about the money.
No one should feel jilted by Turkoglu. He didn’t Boozer a blind man; he went on a job interview and evaluated all the factors, asked for a lot of scratch, didn’t get it and turned it down. He’ll find somewhere to play so he’ll be alright. Let’s be honest, if you were on a job interview and it didn’t feel right, would you still take it if you had other, possibly more lucrative options? Can you blame him? His wife wouldn’t have been happy in P-town and that’s a big factor though I could’ve introduced them to the three Turkish people I know in Hillsboro. Heh.
Maybe part of the problem is that Oregonians have a bit of an inferiority complex. The rest of the country thinks of us as a backwater and most Americans would be hard pressed to find Oregon on a map. “It’s somewhere in CA right?” We wonder if Turkoglu rejected the Blazers for reasons that diminish our town rather than from a business perspective.
Anyhow, I wonder what the heck Toronto is thinking. $54M would be a lot of money to replicate Bargnani’s skillset.
I would be happier if I got the sense that Portland was trying to upgrade its perimeter defense. Maybe another summer of work will make Batum a stopper, but it would be great to get some help from the PG spot.
That isn't fully the point
I don’t see Turkoglu leaving Portland as an incredibly horrific event, but I do feel that he did “jilt” the Blazers. It’s not the fact that he left Portland for Toronto because of it’s international beauty, nor the fact that he may have moved to score a couple more bucks later in his career that irks me. But when you verbally agree to terms on a deal (unless everyone was wrong) it’s pretty pathetic to just back out on your word at the last minute. It becomes especially frustrating when you spend more time than Toronto in pursuing this guy, and all they have to do is flash a check at him and Turk goes running; I understand life isn’t fair, but there should be some more morals built into the system.
by royforprez on Jul 4, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think it's safe to say that
we don’t really know the full story. We don’t know exactly what Portland offered or how big of a factor his wife was.
Verbal agreements aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on and no one officially announced the signing.
Really? I have no problem with how it played out. It's just business.
Win some, lose some. What goes around, comes around.
There is comfort in cliches.
Yeah, I agree that it's unfair for people to mercilessly pile on Hedo Turkoglu for signing with Toronto ...
rather than Portland. For Turkoglu, the choice was the mixture of a business decision and a family matter; thus, it’s understandable that he may’ve wavered a bit before he came to a final conclusion. It’s certainly nothing like the situation centered around Carlos Boozer, who reneged on a verbal agreement with then Cleveland Cavaliers owner Gordon Gund.
http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gund_boozer_040714.html
Boozer will always be known as a shady guy for those shenanigans.
I'm kind of waiting for the rest of the story first.
If Hedo agreed in principle, then backed out, he’s not much better than Boozer. That’s a cardinal sin of the sports world. (Atlanta famously cut off Wasserman Media Group due to what they felt were negotiations without good faith… and the events of that incident are really similar to what happened with Hedo)
If we find out Hedo was close to a deal, never agreed, then backed out due to money or his wife… I won’t be happy with him, but I at least can understand (though why couldn’t his wife decide that BEFORE the trip?).
The secondary problem is that, no matter what happened, Hedo held up the Blazers while all the other major free agents were signing, then abandoned them, leaving the team in a lurch, all to gain some leverage on Toronto. Sure, it’s his right to do that, and I won’t deny that. But it’s my right to think very little of him afterward.
How do we know Turkoglu didn't negotiate in good faith and then have a change of heart?
Why do we instantly assume he’s a bad guy? Boozer was bad because his intentions to Gund were made public. Turkoglu didn’t hold a press conference to announce signing a contract.
Do you think Ariza or Artest would’ve signed with Portland? Artest signed for peanuts and that indicates that he wants a title. LA is more title ready than Portland at this point and he probably wants to be in LA to resurrect his rap and producer career.
Ariza might’ve been obtainable, but is he a clear upgrade over who Portland has now?
How do we know Turkoglu didn’t negotiate in good faith and then have a change of heart?
Well to be fair, that’s why I said “I’m kind of waiting for the rest of the story first”, and that the events were similar, not identical.
Though if he negotiated in good faith, and came to a verbal agreement, then backed out, he acted in bad faith. ESPN is reporting that he indeed acted in bad faith (“A source close to the discussions said Turkoglu had given a verbal commitment to the Blazers on Thursday, then alerted the team on Friday morning that he was having second thoughts”). But I’m not sure anyone else is reporting that.
Good post, Dave
This may end up being viewed as the day the Blazers’ championship ship hit a free-agency iceberg and sank like the Titanic. Or it may end up being seen as the day when a fifty million pound anchor was cut loose just before it sank the ship.
If that’s a tortured metaphor, my apologies; I’ve been up all night!!
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
http://www.postingandtoasting.com/2009/7/4/937705/does-turkoglus-switcharoo-change
This is a huge post, and potentially really significant on the David Lee front for many reasons
Just posted 45 minutes ago, and it basically says NY won’t be able to offer Lee 10 million, and they claim the Knicks have had…
15 teams inquire about a ‘sign & trade’ with Lee but it can’t go down bc of CBA provisions…
Looks very positive on the Blazers front, we know they like him, but even if the braintrust doesn’t think he’s a good fit, its nice to know that other teams are very interested
$10M for a backup is steep.
Lee doesn’t start at center for the Blazers, and doesn’t start at PF. Moreover, he doesn’t back up the 5 with Prz.
The only way Lee makes any sense is in a 3-man rotation with Oden and LMA. That would mean Prz gets traded for….something.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Hinrich?
Chicago has always needed big men, maybe Pryz and Blake with, something extra coming back to Portland, would be enough to get it done. I have been adamantly against trading Pryz to get a PG, but trading Pryz to get a PG and a good 4-5 back-up who can score is an interesting possibility. What do folks think?
by upper left corner on Jul 5, 2009 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Thomas and Hinrich?
the irony would be thick…
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 5, 2009 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions
So if "negotiations broke down" with H*do, that means that we had a chance to go over $56M....
…and chose not to, meaning he was worth $50, but not >$56?
We could have motioned Mr. Allen to forklift in another pallet full of $100’s if we wanted keep bidding, right?
To quote the venerable Master Shake – “a good idea, but I don’t know if it’s a drizzle-good idea”
Good night, Blazer fans, whereEVER you may be.... DAA-daddle-a-DA-da-da-DA-da-da-DAA
by jerome glide porterworth on Jul 4, 2009 6:20 AM PDT reply actions
update from espn (Bucher): it was $53M, and Toronto beat us out because...
“more cosmopolitan,”, closer to Turkey, & larger Turkish community.
Whatcha gonna do?
Good night, Blazer fans, whereEVER you may be.... DAA-daddle-a-DA-da-da-DA-da-da-DAA
by jerome glide porterworth on Jul 4, 2009 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I dunno
There’s a direct flight from Toronto to Istanbul, but if you’re flying from Portland you have to add at least one stop and at least 6 to 8 hours more time. If you’re traveling with small kids, that’s a big deal. But you’re right about the snow.
wow
that’s some serious effort there. kudos for the research!
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't be surprised if KP has a trade involving Outlaw already set up
but wants to use our cap space on a free agent first. Given Martell’s uncertain future and Outlaw’s pending exit, I think Plan A (Turk) and Plan B (???) is to get a SF free agent that can start and then Nic/Martell comes off the bench. Perhaps Odom is Plan B (he can play SF and also backup LMA – another need) but I don’t know how we persuade him to come to Portland, although he has often been at odds with Jackson which might help. Getting Odom would also weaken LA, which would be an added benefit. Odom’s an unrestricted free agent, but what are LA’s options to hang on to him?
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 4, 2009 6:38 AM PDT reply actions
i think the plan was to bring in turk then send blake+outlaw for heinrich. i wouldn't mind getting kirk but i'm happy we dont have turk.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
Historical Perspective = Blessing in Disguise
The 1983-1984 2nd team all NBA 2 guard was Jim Paxson. During the 1984 playoffs, Portland traded Calvin Natt, Fats Lever and Wayne Cooper for Kiki Vandeweghe, who was going to be the perfect fit at the 3. Sam Bowie was drafted as the perfect fit at the 5 – that hurts just writing it (Bowie over Jordan).
Thinking about adding Turkoglu made me think about adding Vandeweghe. How did that work out? Not so well. Vandeweghe’s and Paxson’s skill sets were duplicates. In building a team, the skill sets need to be complementary. I’m convinced that Turkoglu’s and Roy’s skill sets are less complementary and more duplicative. Missing out on Turkoglu is a blessing in disguise.
by Turnout on Jul 4, 2009 6:48 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
exactly. or to quote a more recent example, L-Train + Frye = Buffet with bad Mayonnaise.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
1 thing alot of people forget Sam Bowie eventually turned into Buck Williams
Yeah he wasn’t MJ but he did alot for the Blazers & I loved watching that team even though they came up just a bit short of thye big prize.
All I can say is get me Kirk Hinrich or Gerald Wallace
And to me this offseason will a success.
Honeslty though we’ve got to remember that our own guys are likely to be improve. Oden, Roy, Aldridge, Rudy, Bayless and Batum are all expected to come in improved. If we get back last season’s Przybilla we’re pretty well off as is.
That said it’s a waste to not do anything. This is our only opportunity for the coming years to get something without giving much up.
According to realgm
Toronto’s offer is only 3 million more. Anything to please the Mrs I guess.
Maybe basketball just isn't your game. I know, let's have a spelling contest.
One other potential positive in this situation:
I suspect Nate wanted Hedo more than KP did. Coaches are notoriously poor personnel guys. But Nate has (rightfully in some regards) complained for years that he needs some veteran help, and yet KP has stuck to letting the youth grow and promising something in the summer of ’09. Over time the “chemistry” of the management team very likely has skewed to having to throw Nate a bone at some point.
Now at least KP can look Nate in the eye and say, “Hey, we gave your guy our best offer. We did our best but it was his decision, not ours.”
This Hedo drama may mollify Nate a bit while allowing KP more wiggle room in the internal management dynamics.
I thought Hedo would be perfect
for the Blazers. We played all last year with a starting lineup that had only two players who could create their own shot (LMA & B-Roy). The double teams allowed by that killed us in the playoffs. We also had problems finding enough leadership for a consistent second unit. When I saw Hedo in the playoffs, I said, “He would be perfect.” He can play any position 1-4 and his game is based on skill rather than raw talent and athleticism. Versatility like that could be magical. He is also a “nice guy” who is humble enough to fit in. However, the fact that he is more interested in finding a compatible city for his wife and padding his retirement account than in playing on a championship team is a signal that he is not who we want. As Stan VG would say, Hedo is always skilled, when he brings the energy, he is great. When he doesn’t, he is mediocre. He brought the energy in the playoffs in his contract year. But would he bring it every night once he lands a fat retirement contract? Methinks not!
Travis can also create his own shot, truth be told...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
"Travis can also create his own shot, truth be told....."
create his own shot? you mean like how he chucks up fadeaways with defenders all up in his face from the 3 point line? is that what you mean by create his own shot? I see……
He can jump high enough to get an open look against anybody. True fact.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
The value of "creating your own shot"
is the most overvalued skill set in the NBA. Just watch the failings of the US men’s teams prior to last year. 12 All-Star one-on-one players vs. 12 “none can create their own shot” team players and the team players win. Talent counts, but it has to be disciplined.
Isolation plays drop pace down to glacial rates. They do have their place, but that place is at the end of periods.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shouldn't the title of this been
“Let’s talk Turkey”
"It’s a good ol’ fashioned Rip City beat down!"
by Magnum on Jul 4, 2009 7:46 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
All this Hedo tryptophan is making me very sleepy
GO
THE TEACHER ......come into my classroom "THE PAINT" for some tutelage.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The rancor reflected in that remark I won't dignify with comment. But I'll address your general attitude of hopeless negativism." – Everett "O Brother, where art Thou?"
So where do we go from here?
Where do we look. I know that we can offer some decent trades in a sign and trade. But for who. I really liked the thought of Hedo. It would have made having to get a better PG redundant. I love Blake and his willingness to come back to the 503. But having Hedo would have been great since hes kinda a point forward, along with Roy and Blake woulda made having to get a pg a non issue. So I ask where do we go from here……………..Oh yeah 1 last thing. Hedo needs to man up and tell his wife that Portland for the 50 mil we could offer with a chance @ championship this year, is WAY, WAY better then going to the Raptors who will lose Bosh after ths year anyway, since there is no way in he double hockey sticks he stays becaouse of him!
My wife hates that I watch basketball but loves to watch with me when Joel is on high def
Sessions?
Can we just make a run at Sessions now? I know it will suck to have to wait for Milwaukee to decide if they are going to match, but we can outbid them, right?
the funny thing about sessions is it would piss bayless off.
and already, as is, I think Rudy will forgive but he wont forget.
Please, for the love of all that is holy, please stop using the following: "Book it.", "FTW", "Epic" & "Fail".
...no seriously--stop.
How many times do we have to go through this?
Rudy was never mad. It was all made-up.
This might be crazy
But with Aldridge + Assets, we can get
Aldridge + {Outlaw, Blake, Bayless, Webster, Rudy} = {Carlos Boozer, David Lee} + Devin Harris
Carlos Boozer is better than Aldridge now and David is close to Aldridge. Both of them can rebound better than Aldridge. With Devin Harris, you would get another playmaker. I think NJ would trade Harris for Aldridge + assets and I think Utah is looking to trade Carlos Boozer for salary cap reasons.
Roy
Harris
Boozer
Oden
Batum
Roy
Harris
Lee
Oden
Batum
Boozer = overrated
i wouldn’t give LA up to get boozer straight up, i wouldn’t even give up LA for Boozer + a throw in. Boozer stinks and definitely wouldn’t help the blazers.
by retirecards51 on Jul 4, 2009 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I've had similar ideas posted on another board
But my train of thought was to go after Millsap (or perhaps David Lee) and then use Aldridge for the main chip for Harris (or CP3). Boozer could be more attainable as you said, but Boozer is also a flight risk on 2010.
umm...Boozer isn't available 'cept by trade.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Not to mention
you’d have to fill three more holes on the roster, fix the entire team chemistry, and hope these guys don’t “jilt” Portland like Hedo did to Orlando in a couple years. This makes absolutely no sense to me. Plus, why does everyone think Harris is available?
YEAH THATS GOOD.........
not…………..sorry but had to be said. Why would we want some short guy that is always hurt. He seems to have lost his love of the game and would bolt after this season was done anyway. I would hunt down Pritchard if he did that trade. Good idea if it was when Aldridge was a rookie, but in no way shape or form would this be a good trade. I think it would make our team worse
What's the differance of 3-6 mil? oh about 20+ more losses, and the chance to watch the only star leave by the end of the season. Suck it Hedo!
THANKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU Mrs. Turkoglu
You saved the blazers from making a horrible mistake, thankyou very much one more time and good luck in Toronto.
My plan B...
AI is reported interested in going to the Griz. Any chance we could lure away Conley from them???
?
Is that really the way we should go. I love Conleys game, and he’s known and played with Oden for years, but to me at least, he is not an upgrade over Blake by a long shot, neither is Sessions.
What's the differance of 3-6 mil? oh about 20+ more losses, and the chance to watch the only star leave by the end of the season. Suck it Hedo!
Sessions had one of the highest Net PER's of any point guard not named Parker or CP3
because of his defense and ability to break down the defense off the dribble – the two most vilified Blake deficiencies.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed on all points, Dave...
I have to admit, I dreamed many dreams last night that involved the Toronto deal falling through for Hedo and he found himself adrift w/o a deal in place forcing him to settle for a gig with the Kings…lol
I was resigned to putting a happy face on this deal…make the best of it, right? And then my first reaction when he pulled a Boozer was one of anger and disappointment…you know, EMOTIONAL reactions. And then I took a step back and realized that he had given us what I wanted all along…so…
Thank you, Hedo and Mrs. Sabon…errr…Turkyglu! (although I’m kinda looking forward to the Toronto game now…lol)
It is my fervent hope that the brain TRUST keeps emotions out of any future equations. That means NO Matrix…NO Boozer (Gods no!)…NO AI… Let’s remember our CULTURE and know that we’re building on a breakout year.
Let’s find a way to get Bibby for 2 or 3 years… And then we’ll be in a solid position to grab Crash Wallace or even (dare I dream?) Battier! If we REALLY wanted to hit a home run, we could take a shot at the Birdman to back the 4 hole…how fun would that team be???
Bibby (or Sessions)/Rex
Roy/Fernandez
Wallace/Batum/Webster
Aldridge/Birdman
Oden/Przy
okay…I’m drooling now…back later…
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
by raggmopp on Jul 4, 2009 8:46 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I never really warmed to the idea of Hedo
From paying attention to this sight on a daily basis the reality is that only 30% of the people on here thought the Hedo thing was a good idea, the majority of you think we need a PG not a SF and guess what all of the PG’s are still available none have signed deals elsewhere yet plus Bass is still available as well – so with that said lets move on and go after the position we need
Draft Cole Aldrich 2010
by jlarose78 on Jul 4, 2009 8:48 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd hard
Love the fact that you threw in Bibby. Not a lot of talk about him. And BIRDMAN, christ what a team that would be. Long and fast at every postion.
What's the differance of 3-6 mil? oh about 20+ more losses, and the chance to watch the only star leave by the end of the season. Suck it Hedo!
Birdman, Rudy, Bayless, Martell/Nic/TO (whoever isn't starting), Joel
That would be a pretty fun 2nd unit. I still think Bass is a better fit with Joel, mostly because he can bang and hit the elbow jumper, but (despite a few in-game posts after he did the hair preen thing) the Birdman is starting to appeal to me
Team Bayless - The takeover begins in 2009
Props, Dave, for calling the jilt before the jilting
I thought you had lost your marbles in a fit of denial.
Will this be the Wake-up Call for Outlaw?
More hopeful than anything, but could this be the moment where Travis Outlaw realizes that to stay in Portland he needs to add passing and rebounding to his game?
Heads down scoring is great and has bailed us out of many a game. But the Turkoglu courting was an obvious shot across the bow that Nate wants a more complete player to complement Roy.
If we see Travis put down the fishing pole and go somewhere where he can seriously work on his game, then I would be even more hopeful…
from David Aldridge/NBA.com ..Turkoglu/Raptors .five-year deal - excess of $60 million
A league source divulged late Friday that Portland’s offer to Turkoglu was actually $57 million over five years, not the $50 million that has been reported.
yikes
and i thought $10 per was too much…
by retirecards51 on Jul 4, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions
I am really happy that we didn't sign him
I would not be opposed to Shawn Marion to the Blazers
Patience :)
Via Twitter:
probballhubThe Trail Blazers may turn their attention to restricted free agent David Lee
Wont he want to start? We have Lamarcus.
This piece from LaugingJon
took the words right out of my mouth fingers:
I suspect Nate wanted Hedo more than KP did. Coaches are notoriously poor personnel guys. But Nate has (rightfully in some regards) complained for years that he needs some veteran help, and yet KP has stuck to letting the youth grow and promising something in the summer of ’09. Over time the "chemistry" of the management team very likely has skewed to having to throw Nate a bone at some point.
Now at least KP can look Nate in the eye and say, "Hey, we gave your guy our best offer. We did our best but it was his decision, not ours."
This Hedo drama may mollify Nate a bit while allowing KP more wiggle room in the internal management dynamics.
Also, along with planet29 I am ever so grateful to Mrs. Glue for saving the day.
Sorry Nate, now ya gotta work with what you have. Maybe we can still pick you up a token, cheaper veteran just to appease your desires.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
I dunno...
…Hedo is very much the typical KP pick. Tall, long, versatile, and can shoot. Remember, KP was big on Bargnani before the 06’ draft as well.
I think Nate loves the idea of a solid vet to rely on, and I think KP loves tall guys who can shoot. It’s both of them who liked Hedo, to me.
I don’t mind us losing him, but if KP didn’t want him also he’s not gonna offer 50 million bucks to a guy to appease Nate. Why would he do that? If Nate can’t handle KP having final say on player personnel, when KP has done so much with so little, I’d worry about Nate’s psyche. Nate always says, in regards to the draft and free agency, that it is KP and Friend’s call.
Nate wants vets, but KP won’t just sign someone AT THAT PRICE (I can see cheaper options being an answer for Nate’s requests) without it being someone KP wants.
KP is in charge of this stuff. We can’t blame Nate for something management is responsible for.
We may have dodged a bullet, but since it seems KP wanted Hedo, I wanted Hedo, since I trust KP’s opinion.
Mortimer
"Why would he do that" you ask?
Perhaps ‘cuz he was hounded to do so by Nate for one, but probably more significantly because he appeared to have received a message from PA that the time frame for winning had been moved up. There you go. There’s plausable reasons for KP pursuing Turkoglu.
I of course don’t know, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised to someday learn that KP was relieved by Hedo’s change of heart. Who knows, perhaps he was even encouraged in some way to bail out on Portland.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
According to the Aldridge report
The Blazers were annoyed that Hedo didn’t wanna play for a MUCH better team for just a little less. That falls in line with how they seem to be to me, as well.
So perhaps, KP WAS relieved Hedo didn’t sign. He doesn’t have the heart of a champion!
I guess the biggest reason I dislike the “KP did it for Nate” theory, is that it supposes KP is weak, and Nate is too dumb to trust KP. To me, that is the part that seems unlikely, since they have a good relationship and KP hasn’t shown to be a guy who caves into pressure.
Mort
I didn't mean to say that KP did for it Nate as if
it was all Nate’s idea and not KP’s at all. Perhaps in all the scenarios KP had on his menu he was interested in a Hedo, but not overly excited about it. Nate was selling him enthusiastically on a Hedo and warmed more and more to the idea.
I’m sure when it was all said and done KP was mighty pissed when he was told a Hedo was no longer available from the kitchen, but then was able, in short order, to pick up the menu, say to himself “I wasn’t really all that in the mood for a Hedo anyway” and start looking over the menu again.
I DO think he’ll work hard to find Nate the veteran help the team needs, but I think it’ll be more one of KP’s creative deals rather than the first easy obvious one that’s featured on the menu.
Yah, I too find that Aldrige report to be revealing.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
Great player, fills a need
but would he be happy with the PT he’d get here? LMA is a 30-35 mpg guy, so the only way I see Lee getting the minutes he wants would be trading Travis (probably in a PG package with Blake/others) and reducing Joel’s minutes to go with a smaller lineup more frequently. I could see it working, but like the Hedo move, it would be a deal within the framework of other deals.
Team Bayless - The takeover begins in 2009
it would be better for LMA and the Blazers if he was a 30-35 mpg guy in the regular season
and a 40 mpg guy in the playoffs
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
My thoughts as well
and that goes double for Roy. Honestly, that’s why I like having Rudy here so much – he’s a more than capable SG, so we don’t have to run ROy into the ground during the regular season (like the Heat have to with Wade) and he’ll be better for it in the playoffs. Hopefully, Brandon Bass will play the same role with LMA, I think he’s a more realistic target in terms of price tag/pt expectations than Lee.
Team Bayless - The takeover begins in 2009
by blazeraddict on Jul 4, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Reportedly
He really wants to start and make about 10 million a year.
As a backup, he’s perfect, but he isn’t as good as LMA and we don’t have the role he wants.
I don’t think he’d like to come here because of that.
Morty
Prz for Battier
Outlaw and Blake for Hinrich
Sign Lee
Three bigs sharing 96 minutes = 32 min apiece (plenty)
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions
battier is old and worthless
the only people who think he is any good are Houston fans. and it’s because they live in a made up fantasy world. Don’t fall for their tricks i tell you. evil……evil i say
The only way I see that happening
is if the Blazers are prepared to trade Przybilla and need Lee to step in at center as well as PF.
Yes, Battier!
This guy is all-world defense and smart about it as well. Old and worthless? Wow…go away, David Lee’s agent! Shoo!!!
Are you a Mexi-CAN or a Mexi-CAN'T?
Stand pat
I think we dodged a bullet as well. In my rosey scenario:
If Oden puts it together and learns to play without fouling, he can play 35 minutes a night and becomes a 20/10+ player.
Combine that with Bayless taking over at PG, and improvement from Batum…
That’s the team I want to see in the finals.
by Kyzug on Jul 4, 2009 9:47 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
If the right deal/player is available, KP should take it (I still want a veteran backup PF, cough, Bass, cough), but those 3 players you just mentioned have the potential to be better than any upgrades KP could get this off-season. All three have been working like crazy this summer – let’s give it a chance
Team Bayless - The takeover begins in 2009
Since Turkoglu wasn't (IMO) going to be the only deal of the summer
then I’d say the Blazers need a plan with multiple pieces. It makes it a big more difficult to pull off, but who said life was simple?
Option 1
Sign either Varajao or Lee with cap room
Trade Przybilla to Houston for Battier
Trade Outlaw+Blake+$3 million cash for Hinrich
Option 2
Lopsided trade with Washington – Outlaw for Mike Miller
Lopsided trade with Philly – Blake+Webster+$3 million cash for Andre Miller
Come up with your own options…..
can't trade pryz
and don’t trade for hinrich, so i guess the only decent options in there are:
1A – sign BASS/ or varajao/lee/etc w/ room and stay put
and/or 2B – Blake/Web/$$ for AMiller (i’m not sold on this but miller is an improvement and is a much better option than kirk).
Mike miller doesn’t really help us much, battier does but i wouldn’t trade the starting center (or best backup center in the league) w/o Oden playing at least 1 full season injury free. hinrich is an overrated and overpaid version of blake. If we could get battier for outlaw and cash and future picks and/or euro players, that is the way to go.
by retirecards51 on Jul 4, 2009 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Lee, Battier, and Hinrich
for Przybilla, Outlaw, and Blake.
THAT is very interesting. It hurts a little losing Przybilla but if you trust Oden… Plus Lee does give you another big man. You lose none of your top four players and you get some incredibly, INCREDIBLY dependable and talented supporting people. Solid as a rock. Lee being happy would be one concern of mine. The logjam at small forward still exists if Martell gets healthy. But I’d really, really consider this move seriously.
—Dave
I actually think Millsap would be a better fit than Lee, and it looks that Utah will have trouble signing him.
Millsap/Oden, Aldridge/Millsap, and Aldridge/Oden are all reasonable combinations.
Lee is much more polished offensively.
I don’t think you take Millsap over Lee, but there is certainly nothing wrong with a Millsap scenario.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Lee is two inches taller and brings that elusive "experience" quality
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
experience at losing? I think if we get a veteran, it’ll be one that has won.
Height doesn’t mean much when one player has a great wingspan and better rebounding numbers.
Millsap plays defense.
Millsap Net PER vs Lee Net PER
+4.1 vs. +2.3
so the Millsap concept has merit. I just don’t see Millsap lining up at center in a 3-man rotation. Plus, although Millsap is efficient, he isn’t overly productive. Like I mentioned before, I could easily endorse a Millsap move, especially since a Prz trade wouldn’t be a foregone conclusion to make the minutes work.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
LaMarcus Aldridge is the center on defense in both scenarios, which I ...
don’t like whatsoever. Yeah, David Lee and Paul Millsap can effectively post up down on the low block offensively, but alongside Aldridge on the frontline will create a porous interior defense. Although Aldridge and Millsap would be average in that regard, Aldridge and Lee would be putrid defensively.
Between David Lee and Paul Millsap, I'd much rather have Millsap.
In all honesty, though, I’d rather go after Mike Miller and Kirk Hinrich.
The difference is that Miller only has a year left on his contract
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Not A Fair Comparison
Because Lee starts and Milsap comes off the bench.
I shoulda read down while writing my thoughts
but I’m with you. Webster would really have to not only recover his health, but develop his defensive game. I don’t see a downside to putting that kind of pressure on him. Plus, Webster can play the 2 or the 3. That kind of versatility will be useful.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
I check blog a bull every once in a while just because the howls of pain are so amusing,
but it occurs to me, that Tryus Thomas may also not be long for Chicagos world. What about a trade that brings Hinrich and Thomas back. PG upgrade, banger PF in one shot.
Thomas isn’t much of a banger, he’s more of a Travis Outlaw combo forward that has to play the 4 due to a lack of a jump shot. He’s a great shot-blocker, but has consistency and attitude issues.
He's a good rebounder though, usually
And while he hasn’t met a pump fake he didn’t like, he’s got potential…
M.
Tyrus Thomas is a poor man-to-man defender with a low basketball IQ, too, for his forte ...
is running amok as a shot blocker on weakside help defense. All things considered, Thomas is a poor man’s Josh Smith.
all 3 of those players are lame.
Lee is overrated, Battier is old and worthless, and Hinrich is white.
You make it sound like being white is a bad thing.
Dave and Ben are white…. what’s that say about them? I think they do GREAT work!
Blazers win!
I like the Hinrich idea. Here is another one.
Plan A: Sign Ramon Sessions for deal starting at MLE then going up. Sign & trade Brandon Bass at a little above the MLE for Martell Webster, Jeff Pendergraph and a future first round pick in a slightly lopsided trade (Mavs need a better and more physical SG starter who can spread the floor, and Martell could be that once fully healthy for the later part of the season). Let Blake come off the books next year if no deal can be found.
Plan B: If the Blazers still want a point forward type player, sign RFA Josh Childress from Atlanta. Do the Hinrich trade for Blake and probably Outlaw. Problem here is that they wouldn’t have money left to sign a good PF backup beyond our new rookies.
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Here's my earlier scenario.
After the July moratorium, though, the Trail Blazers will need to clean house a bit by renouncing some cap holds and exceptions to get under the cap. So, in all likelihood, this is what the books will look like come 7/8/2009.
ACTIVE ROSTER
Joel Przybilla ($6,857,725)
LaMarcus Aldridge ($5,844,827)
Greg Oden ($5,361,240)
Martell Webster ($4,319,654)
Steve Blake ($4,000,000)
Brandon Roy ($3,910,816)
Travis Outlaw ($3,600,000)
Jerryd Bayless ($2,413,080)
Rudy Fernandez ($1,165,320)
Nicolas Batum ($1,118,760)
RELEASED
Darius Miles ($9,000,000)
CAP HOLDS
Victor Claver ($1,012,900) {22nd Pick @ Rookie Scale}
Joel Freeland ($824,200) {30th Pick @ Rookie Scale}
Petteri Koponen ($824,200) {30th Pick @ Rookie Scale}
Jeff Pendergraph ($0) {Second-Round Pick}
Dante Cunningham ($0) {Second-Round Pick}
Patty Mills ($0) {Second-Round Pick}
TOTAL
$49,982,722
With that noted, here’s my off-season plan as of this very moment.
TRANSACTION #1
Trade Steve Blake, the draft rights of Patty Mills, a 2010 second-round draft pick (i.e., the more favorable of the pick owed by Chicago and Portland’s own pick), and $3,000,000 in cash considerations to the Chicago Bulls for Kirk Hinrich.
The new total salary would then be $55,482,722.
TRANSACTION #2
Sign Jeff Pendergraph to three-year, $2,550,000 contract (2009-2010: $800,000; 2010-2011: $850,000; 2011-2012: $900,000), with the third season non-guaranteed if he’s waived before 7/1/2011.
The new total salary would then be $56,282,722.
TRANSACTION #3
Sign Dante Cunningham to a two-year, $1,219,783 contract (2009-2010: $457,588 & 2010-2011: $762,195), with the second season non-guaranteed if he’s waived before 7/1/2010.
The new total salary would then be $56,740,310.
TRANSACTION #4
Trade Travis Outlaw, Martell Webster, the draft rights of Joel Freeland, and the draft rights of Petteri Koponen to the Washington Wizards for Mike Miller.
The new total salary would then be $57,053,193.
TRANSACTION #5
Sign Robert Swift to a one-year, minimum-level contract.
TRANSACTION #6
Sign Anthony Carter to a one-year, minimum-level contract.
TRANSACTION #7
Sign Ime Udoka to a one-year, minimum-level contract.http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/6/29/930068/come-7-1-2009-heres-an-estimated
Only one problem with #1
It’s been pretty widely reported, even before the FA season began, that Chicago was going to keep either Gordon or Hinrich. Not both, nor neither.
Gordon’s gone. Guess who Chicago is keeping?
Fans hopes for “Captain Kirk” are dashed. And for good riddance; I’m tired of it (not to slam anyone, mind you… I just feel there’s better out there to be had)
Blazers win!
wow
robert swift and Anthony carter? i love Ime, but really, you are willing to go to war with Robert Swift and Anthony Carter? you are willing to give up a lot for Kirk and Mike Miller. I don’t think Miller helps us much, and i obviously hate the idea of trading for kirk.
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
we won't have an MLE.
we’ll be under the cap. we can offer MLE type money, but the MLE is for teams over the cap.
Toronto not that great
I’ve visited there a few years ago. It’s like a bigger, cleaner Buffalo. I thought for a city it’s size it was pretty boring. Very flat and even from the top of the CN tower there’s really not much to see. No comparison between Toronto and Portland. Though I agree Toronto is the most international city in North America.
JRogero
You've got to get out into the community to see Toronto's charm
It is a great place.
Same can be said for Portland
"He wanted to come to a winner, Mrs. Turk wanted to go shopping….."
- Upper Left Corner
by 92wastheyear on Jul 4, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
you insult toronto by calling it Buffalo and saying its boring.
and then you say it’s no different from Portland.
Nice.
Actually he said there is no comparison
implying that Portland was superior
"He wanted to come to a winner, Mrs. Turk wanted to go shopping….."
- Upper Left Corner
Sorry, but I can't resist:
Yesterday, at exactly 6:00 PM, I made an entry in the celebratory side bar post Broggerboy created to revel over the ‘successful’ signing of Hedo (his post started like thus “Alas, it’s over. All the debating and hysteria can be put aside, trades will be made to round out our roster, and we will officially have an army to go to war with for the next 5 years.”)
My entry later in that thread was short pleading and simple. It said “Come on Toronto, it’s still not too late”.
So you see, I’m feeling a little responsible here, that my little cheer gave Toronto the encouragement they needed at the 11th hour when all had looked lost to them.
I begrudgingly feel a need though to give an assist to Mrs. Turkey Glue (who is my candidate for woman of the year.)
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
Ya did it!
That’s pretty funny. Colangelo dug (two)deep to find the resolve to overpay Hedo!
I think, in the long run, we’ll all get what we want.
M—
Was there a trade in the works once we signed Hedo?
Considering how aggressive KP and Co. were going for Hedo, I wonder if blazers already had a deal to trade Outlaw (or other SF). It seemed they were using all the free agent money addressing a position that most thought initially wasnt as neccesary to address as were PG and PF. And it was hard to believe that we would keep Outlaw if we did get Hedo (martell is likely untradeable at this point and Blazers would probably choose to keep Batum over Travis). It would seem strange to add Hedo and have a logjam at SF with Batum, rudy, Travis, etc.
there has been a lot of talk...
about travis as the primary #4 backup. I don’t understand how they can expect to play a PF who doesn’t rebound or play defense, and has no power, but that is what i have been hearing on the radio and such.
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
KP to Hedo
“Well, here is our offer. 57 Mil for 5 years.” “Have you been to Toronto? Such a nice city…and I hear there are alot of Turkish people there….” Umm…before you sign that, did you know Portland has a large Greek community….you people are all the same right? …right? “You think you are getting a big contract? Just wait until we offer Brandon 5 years 75 million with a no trade clause.”
I think this proves
That the guy REALLY calling the shots in the front office, is Rudy Fernandez.
Rudy is why we went “No Hedo”.
Mo—
i read every word dave writes and he never ceases to amaze me
by Ben Golliver on Jul 4, 2009 10:54 AM PDT reply actions 7 recs
Why not wait?
I think KP should wait until midseason to make any major moves. I don’t see any FAs that are a definite upgrade. Maybe offer 4-5 million for a solid rebounder at Fry’s vacated spot, but I would like to see what we get out of some question marks and make a move from a position of power before the trade deadline. This is likely to be the only significant cap space the blazers have for the next 5+ years, so they shouldn’t make a hurried move just to make fans happy. We don’t know what kind of contribution we are going to get from Martell, Batum and Bayless this year. We also don’t know if any of the rookies are going to be worth anything. By mid season we will know exactly what we need and would most likely be the only team with salary cap room for a lopsided trade. There should be at least ten teams in yard sale mode by January, who would be looking for depth and a salary dump. What we most likely need is a starting PG and some solid veteran depth at PF. I don’t see much there right now, but possibilities will emerge when teams start to struggle and lose more fans.
Thank You Hedo's Wife!!!!!
Don’t get me wrong Hedo is a wonderful player, but he’s not right for Portland. We may have consistently won 55 games for the next few years, but I don’t think this would’ve been a closer move to the finals. Plus three years from now we would’ve regretted the BIG contract. One thing that boggles my mind is why isn’t intrested in the Matrix. I have always loved his game. We can get him cheap, he can hit the three and can play both the 3 and the 4. I think he would be a fantastic fit in Portland.
Why David Lee?
According to this, David Lee might be Portland’s next target:
http://www.prosportsdaily.com/nba/nba-rumors.html
But why? And I don’t think he’s worth the same as what we threw at Hedo. Where would he play? I’m sure he would want to start, you cant move LA to the 3.
No way we let go of Joel for David Lee
..at least, not right now. You really think the Blazers are ready to hand the keys over to Oden yet? I still think Joel’s got big brother duty for a couple of years. People in portland would riot if this happened.. especially the fairweather fans who jumped on board this year – lets keep them happy as Joel is still the grandpa on the team who walked to school 5 miles in the snow both ways uphill.
by osu_fugitive on Jul 4, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Brandon Bass
fits our needs better and would be cheaper.
by spencerbutte on Jul 4, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Sign David Lee, and (gasp) use LMA as trade bait for a star PG.
LMA won’t want to play second fiddle to Brandon forever anyway.
Paul has a poison pill contract
very hard to work a reasonable bilateral trade
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 4, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
This might be crazy
What about bringing back Sheed. Before you folks run me out. Sheed is a follower. He is what his envirnonment is. That’s why he prepetuatated the Jail Blazer image. Sheed could be a great back up PF/SF. He could help develop either Outlaw or Batum and trade the other. He might even teach LA a few things. Plus, he is a Laker Killer,
We got LA and B Roy for cruch time
Sheed would play 20 mins to maintain leads, not fall back behind by too much and give our stars/soon to be stars a rest.
Sheed would never come back he hated the media here
Of course I haven’t heard of many that like Canzano
What about Gerald Wallace?
I can’t make up my mind. Would he really contribute? Can he play defense? I keep hearing his name, but only from blazer bloggers. He was a hot name during the trade deadline.
Gerald Wallace is a very solid player
He also has a brighter future a head of him. My concern is he might demand the ball and playing time more than we have to give. But he could pan out quite well too.
Sheed Hates All Media
And he loves Portland (probably because it has more stripper per capita than any other city). I think he’s going to Boston, so it’s just a pipe dream but still. I think he would be a good fit with the team. Of course I would have to unload Outlaw and Webster, maybe add Pryz and trade them to Philly for a sign and trade Andre Miller.
I think Our #1 focus this year should be veteran PG.
Canzano vs. Dwight Jaynes
who wins in a bottle fight?
by osu_fugitive on Jul 4, 2009 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Which do you think is greater?
The amount of hate the general public has for JC, or the amount that he loves himself?
by Furious Styles on Jul 4, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Is Devin Harris going to be a Net for a while
Or can we throw some talent to pry him away? What’s his contract like?
year,
but i think we missed out on that boat a few years back…
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Wait unil trade deadline
The obvious knee jerk reaction to all of this is to go after Lee but the smart thing to do is to simply wait until the trade deadline and take the best deal available, even if its for a rental. Toronto might have to deal Bosh if they are lottery bound after gutting their team for Hedo.
Don't be silly. We must react quickly, and without rational thought!
Cause really…thats what they were already doing kinda. I mean…$50 mil for an aging 3rd best player, on a team with some young talent that could eclipse him within the next year or two?
I don't mind Canzano``
Because I know what he’s all about. To give an opinion that will sell newspapers. I can’t stand Dwight Janes and the whole Takin’ Ball Crew. They just come of as posers. I would rather see old Blazers just shooting the SH## about the game and about being a blazer.
I don't mind Dwight, I think he makes some good arguments.
The rest of the talkin ball crew are worthless. And Canzano is the Lars Larson of sports. He takes whichever side of an argument people will disagree with, and enjoys hearing his own voice too much.
But that's what sells
That’s why we are talking about him. As retarded as that is.
I dont see the "blunder'
It seems like this played out exactly as predicted. Toronto had more money to offer, so Portland needed to really overwhelm Hedo on his visit, which they tried to do. In the end, he took the most money, which his agent said he would. Not a miss or blunder by KP, just an attempt to get him cheaper then someone else. Good try, now move on to the next plan (as probably expected).
Too bad it wasn't a competitive team.
It would be nicer to force Denver or LAL into some bad decisions.
KP is a smart man
Let’s see where we’re at and Toronto is at by the end of next season. And the season after that, and after that.
at the end of 4 seasons
When hedo is out on the court with a walking cane.
by TrailBlazerChief on Jul 4, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
My take on this is....
No matter where you play as an nba player, you are probably wealthy enough to live anywhere in the world you want…in the off-season. Although Toronto is a more cosmopolitan city, definitely more diverse, their team does not seem to be going anywhere. In five years when hedo’s contract is up, he can stay there or go somewhere else, but the likelihood of him going somewhere with a ring is slim to none. After tasting a trip to the nba finals, why would you choose a mid to low level team to play for based just on the city. He would be able to live anywhere at 5 years, the one thing he couldn’t do is go back to be on a team that is moving in the right direction, and has a real shot at winning the title. Hedo’s loss not ours….
by Tyler Durrden on Jul 4, 2009 12:07 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah I don't really get it either...
Why not just live wherever the hell you want, and play for Portland or whatever. Shaq certainly isn’t going to live in Cleveland. He’ll get a modest 9,000 sq ft house during the season.
There are lots of great spots around Cleveland
Shaq might find he loves the cold, snow, gray skies most of the year, humidity and mosquitoes.
(i know – i grew up and went to college there)
I read it again..
…and Daves post is solid analysis.
I disagree with one statement: “There’s no reason to hate Turkoglu for that.”
Sorry IMO where Turkoglu and Lon Babby crossed the line into a area where I feel it is just fine to not like them is when they agreed in principal to a deal and then at the last moment backed out.
Sure it’s legal, sure its business. But IMO it’s sleazy, cheap. You don’t handshake on a deal then back-out. I don’t care if it is possible and legal.
I plan to hate Turkoglu as a player as much as possible. I really want tickets to the Toronto game. A nice Batum block on Turkoglu, or a Slam Dunk on him and a chorus of 50 Million plus angels will scream out in retribution! You treated us bad Turk and you wasted our precious time.
"Mother Nature started this fight, I think it's about time we ended it!"
David Lee Rumor
Just read about David Lee signing with the Blazers for $10 million. LOL. His agent is trying to start a bidding war using Portland like Hedo.
Is he going to fake a meet and greet at the airport with a KP impersonator?
David Lee is not happening. NOT HAPPENING.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Lee's agent is the source. LOL.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07042009/sports/knicks/david_may_lee_ve_the_big_apple_177540.htm
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Oh yeah... I had seen that, thought there might be something new.
And yeah its probably just his agent trying to get the Knicks to commit to more money. I can’t see Lee playing a backup role to Aldridge…. Unless of course the blazers are thinking of using Lamarcus as trade bait for a PG.
Hopefully, this puts Sessions back into play
Wanted to lock up a good young PG first before a wing, now this is back on the menu, I hope. 5 years, 40 million deal for Sessions and force cap-strapped Milwaukee to let him walk. We move Travis to PF and use Martell/Batum at the wings and let them develop.
wow
that is in the same contract range as my nemesis, cap’n kirk. is seesions really that good (not saying kirk is good, but i have only seen sessions a couple times and he doesn’t really fit the veteran leadership quality we are looking for)?
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm just happy that Dave also had some bad feelings about that deal when considering the rich package
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
Money doesn't matter as much as it used to
There’s less and less percentage in saving it as time goes by. The Roy/Aldridge signings are looming and thinking about money will be useless to everyone but Paul Allen after that. The Blazers need to spend. However that’s no excuse for failing to get the best return possible on your money. Hedo on a three year deal is great return. Hedo on a five year deal not so much.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 4, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, especially considering what the Lakers and Rockets paid for their SF switcheroo
If you want to trade our spare parts for Devin Harris, I have three quarters I would like to trade for your dollar
In any other offseason...
And without a “championship team” discount, Artest could have demanded Hedo money. It was just the wrong Summer for it, and Artest took a discount to go for a title. He wouldn’t have gone to Portland for that price.
You’re correct about Ariza, of course.
plus as a "rap-star" Artest wants to roll in his limo all-nite in LA
with his posse, some skanky women, etc.
ignacio
don't sell pdx short...
there are plenty of skanky women in p-town…
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions
You missed the sarcasm font
"He wanted to come to a winner, Mrs. Turk wanted to go shopping….."
- Upper Left Corner
by 92wastheyear on Jul 5, 2009 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
There was never a chance Artest was going to make Hedo money
He just has too many quirks.
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
This is a Marc Stein article from last summer
Artest followed up our Tuesday interview with an e-mail Thursday in which he said: "Even if I was to opt out, which probably won’t happen, I will never accept a mid-level exception. So people trying to figure out possibilities should get that out of their heads."
Translation: Artest is strongly against opting out largely because he knows that the Lakers (and any other interested party) likely would offer him a free-agent contract starting at no higher than the mid-level, which was $5.4 million this season. He’d rather play next season at $7.4 million for Sacramento or whomever — knowing that the Kings are virtually certain to get various trade offers if he elects to play out the final year of his contract — then see what kind of deal he can command on the 2009 free-agent market.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 4, 2009 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
But it's not just "use it or lose it money"
I mean yes this will be our last chance to use it in FA but its not like there’s no risk. If he’s a dissapointment and has to come off the bench that would kill our morale. Bad signings, bloated contracts sitting on the bench that eats at a franchise that is not visible in mere numbers.
by neutroticblazerfan on Jul 4, 2009 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
On the lighter side
Like many I think Hedo going to Toronto is actually best for the Blazers.
We should have a best title contest for the Hedo incident. I’ll start:
-Hedo? Oh no, he don’t.
-“Let’s talk Turkey” -Magnum
-The Old Hedo Switcheroo
Myth - Nate is a defensive minded coach
As far as I can tell (without digging up serious stats), Nate coached teams are average defensively at best. I know nate was a defensive point gaurd – I watched him play, but it was more because of his size than his wizardry. Nate relies on average defense and efficient offense to win. That is why Hedo made some sense, becaues it provided other options to along with vet experience. A good defensive coach almost immediately makes their team a better defensive team, but that just hasn’t been Nate’s calling card.
not a myth, just your opinion
The Olympic commitee had everyone in America to choose from and decided to go with Nate as the defensive coach in what was one of the most important gold metal runs in our countries history. Yes, they choose Nate. Your opinion must be in the minority, because some of the greatest basketball minds in the world apper to disagree with you.
by ItsMrHarris2u on Jul 4, 2009 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
They liked him as a defensive assistant (though Spain's offense didn't have much trouble in the gold medal game)
but as a head coach, the results to justify his reputation as a defensive coach simply are not there.
Having the horses is a big part of the race
This year and last are the first years that Nate has had input into personnel selection and the inexperience then cuts him some slack. I agree that 13 of 30 is not high praise defensively. There is steady improvement as the team has gone from 28th to 26th to 17th to 13th defensively over Nate’s time here. I think we are all hoping we can move into the top 5 and stay there.
In separate interviews this last year stars from the Olympic team credited their coaches and the commitment they all bought into defensively with winning the Gold and carrying over into being better defenders this year. Even if that was not Nate he certainly gained from the experience as well.
Great News! This year Plan B is available to girls as young as 17 without a prescription!
Oh wrong thread :(
s
The Princess of Blazersedge
Mostly for the 17 year old girl.....
Evil Cowtown Inc: Screwin' Suckaz over since Nineteen Eighty-Five.....
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
THANK GOD.
DO NOT WANT! DO NOT WANT!
Life is hilarious.
by SolGoode on Jul 4, 2009 3:17 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Hollinger on ESPN insider...anyone know what the rest of the article is about?
Anyone who saw the footage of Hedo Turkoglu meeting Blazers bigwigs at Portland International Airport on Thursday had to get a little bit of a weird feeling. Especially any married guys. Turkoglu came alone, amid rumors that his wife very strongly preferred to be in Toronto, and I remember thinking at that very moment that the Blazers recruiting pitch was doomed to failure. It was going to be tough to sell her on the charms of Portland if she wasn’t there.
Thus, despite two days of Chamber of Commerce weather here in the Rose City, replete with blue skies and Mt. Hood views, and tours of the Blazers’ first-rate training facility in Tualatin, Turkoglu isn’t coming to the Blazers. After an 11th-hour Boozerang that will forever immortalize him as “Hedon’t” in the local vernacular, the Turkoglus are heading to Toronto instead — a place they never visited on this free-agent tour, apparently because they didn’t need to be sold on it.
Great of him to
note this after the fact. His powers of observation might have been more impressive if he had mentioned this before it all went down.
by neutroticblazerfan on Jul 4, 2009 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
decisions
“It would be nicer to force Denver or LAL into some bad decisions.”
That’s why Denver and LA are good teams, they don’t make bonehead decisions like that.
Portland and Denver both won 54 games last year
Portland fans felt they were finally getting better again.
Denver fans were celebrating the most wins in franchise history.
Let’s not lose track of the bigger picture. Denver’s team history is replete with bonehead decisions, just like most teams (Not trying to pick on Denver here). Had Joe Dumars not decided to dump Billups for cap space, Denver might have been the team sitting at home in May.
LA just gets bailed out more often, thanks to a prime location that’s attractive to free agents and, sometimes, very sweet little trades that always seem to tilt in LA’s favor somehow, no matter who the LAL GM is. They wouldn’t have a title if Pau Gasol hadn’t arrived in a lopsided trade that luckily worked out for Memphis eventually.
yeah
w/o chauncy, denver was one of the couple teams i had picked to be scrapping it out for that final playoff spot. w/ chauncy, they were dangerous. amazing what a truly great leader/player chauncy is. i wish portland could have gotten him…
by retirecards51 on Jul 5, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
The contracts of Luke Walton, Andrew Bynum, Sasha Vujajic, and Kenyon Martin all beg to differ
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 4, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
more on the Raptors deal....5 year/53 mil....which zaching deal is it?
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/11838893/15890497
Hedo Turkoglu has agreed to a five-year, $53 million deal with the Raptors, admitting through his agent, Lon Babby, that he changed his mind after giving a verbal commitment to Portland.
last line: The Blazers, Babby said, “are feeling somewhat aggrieved, and justifiably so. We just assumed we had made a verbal commitment and we had every intention of following through on it. … There was never any intention of hurting anybody.”
Well
Im glad Babby is honest about that……
by neutroticblazerfan on Jul 4, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions
This stuffing is really getting me ZO'd (zached-off )
Not only did he make a verbal agreement and “renege” but if the two deals are correctly reported (5yr/$50m vs 5yr/53m) then they were virtually identical ($400k a year over the course of the contract ). This means that the reason that he chose to go to the Raptors was that he didn’t like the city of Portland or playing with the team itself. The only thing more insulting would be if he had specifically called the fans.
"He wanted to come to a winner, Mrs. Turk wanted to go shopping….."
- Upper Left Corner
Maybe he likes the Eastern Time Zone???
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
From the mouth of Raptors fans
“P.s. Does anyone else find the hilarity in Henry abbot jumping the gun on the hedo to blazer news?
His first big break as a reporter and he botches it. "
http://raptorsrepublic.com/blog/2009/07/04/turkoglu-heading-to-toronto/#comments
by neutroticblazerfan on Jul 4, 2009 4:51 PM PDT reply actions
Can't blame them for pointing it out
especially when you factor in that they are raptor fans.
put a body on 'em
Yeah but
It wasn’t just Henry…it was everyone who jumped the gun…for good reason since Hedo did give his verbal agreement …which is not binding of course …but is rarely overturned
"He wanted to come to a winner, Mrs. Turk wanted to go shopping….."
- Upper Left Corner
by 92wastheyear on Jul 5, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
hedo
Toronto did the Blazers a huge favor. 50 mil for Hedo? Wojarnowski has an insightful column, Yahoo sports. Hope Pritchard reads it. Just because we have money doesn’t mean we should spend it. Also would Hedo really be the missing piece to get us into the finals? I think that is ludicrous thinking. KP needs to be patient and not read all the press about himself.
Oh God
I’m starting to talk myself in Shawn Marion! I need help!!!
Quick, go and, um....er....
talk yourself out of Shawn Marion?
Idk… maybe pray to KP for forgiveness… and then five Hail Mary’s
Blazers win!
No really...
But he’s a solid defender, avid rebounder, decent shooter (around 48%), can hit the open three, doesn’t the ball in his hand to be effective, he still has probably 3 good years left, I think that his attitude would be held in check by the firm hand of Coach Nate and the backhand of Joel Przybilla and NO! STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT!!!!! Do NOT go down this path GMan!!!!
Oh mighty KP, please forgive me for I have sinned…
Thank goodness!
I was uncomfortable with the whole thing, now I am just relieved. We will have more wins next year with the same core and a minor tweak here and there.
battier
“the only people who think he is any good are Houston fans. and it’s because they live in a made up fantasy world.”
He is a master of putting his hand in front of the shooter’s eyes, though.
If I were a basketball player I would find that extremely irritating.
I wonder if he has ever been likened to a mosquito.
If that’s not a special talent, how come nobody else seems to be able to do that?
I do think Toronto needs to trade another player to pay for $53M
For $53M they need $9M under the cap. They can renounce rights to Marion, Parker, Graham, & O’Bryant but that leaves them with a roster of 9 plus the draft pick so they have cap holds for rookie minimum (2) and pick #9 added to those 9 and they appear to still be over by more than $600K. They either need a trade or a team (OKC or Memphis?) who will take a salary (Roko Ukic?) along with draft picks for no return. The cost to Phoenix for this move a couple of year ago was 2 1st round picks but then Thomas made $8M so Ukic would be less.
Yawn
Blazers don’t get to pverpay for a guy who probably isn’t the answer and gets to watch Toronto make fools of themselves. I don’t really see the downside. The only annoyance is hearing that Toronto is a more cosmopolitan city than Portland over and over again. I know people who live near Toronto. It’s cold. Really cold. Is that what cosmopolitan means?
P.S. Without meeting her Hedo’s wife sounds like a shrew.
Blazer Fan
news
“His first big break as a reporter and he botches it. "
Hardly. He broke the story that Hedo had agreed to a deal “in principle” with the Blazers.
That story was 100% correct.
Hedo's accountant probably called him up at the last moment and said...
" Hedo, your income is going to be taxed at 44% (9 state + 35 fed) if you play for Portland!"
Hedo: “Hayret! Well, what about taxes in Canada?”
Accountant: “30% (11 provincial + 29 natl.).”
Hedo: “Call you when my flight lands in Toronto.”
Roy Tribute
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
Wouldn't
11 provincial and 29 national be 40%? Correct me if I’m wrong—after all, I went to an Oregon public school.
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
doh! yer right!
sorry, i skipped that crucial chapter on addition.
Darius Miles Tribute Vid
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
Don't forget the 16% sales tax...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Odom should be Plan B
I still think that the Blazers should make a run at Odom. I think it will be respect thing for him. The Lakers are trying to low ball him at $6-7 million. You take him for three reasons, One he has championship experience. Two he adds toughness and rebounding. Three You take away a significant Laker asset.
As for the Toronto thing, I am confused by the Blazer reaction. They removed Barrett’s post from their website and they have been extremely quiet. Could they be trying to be party to a 3 way sign and trade and don’t want to piss off Toronto. Toronto has Calderon and Portland could get him and give Toronto some breathing room to get other players to surround Turk and Bosh. Give me your thoughts.
Please take down Hedo's picture
It’s time to move on.
by oregonslee on Jul 5, 2009 10:07 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
We already have our free agent.......
The forgotten man……….Martell Webster. Personally I’m glad we didn’t sign Hedo. He would definitely work in Nate’s system but 5 years was just too long of a deal. I think Andre Miller would and should be the deal to make. Blake is a backup, plain and simple. Good job Pritch on aiming high and shooting low. I would really like the lineup of Miller, Roy, Webster, Aldridge and Oden.
"I figured we ought to hang around for a while and see if we can give 'em all a nice big shitburger to eat!" -Major League
/agrees totally
but i think we’re in the minority on this, Otis. :(
Darius Miles Tribute Vid
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
thank you for being a free thinker
Just because Martell missed last season doesn’t mean you give up on the kid. Either everybody’s forgot or they don’t like his game. He was the #6 pick in the 2005 draft. Portland saw something in him obviously to take him so high. Our team is good but Hedo wouldn’t have made us great. We are a point guard away from contention. I truly hope Bayless is the answer because as being a Duck fan, I witnessed him tearing the Pac-10 a new one. He just needs minutes. That or Hinrich to start ahead of him.
"I figured we ought to hang around for a while and see if we can give 'em all a nice big shitburger to eat!" -Manager Lou Brown -Major League
It really depends on what shape his ankle is in.
Why has it taken so long to heal? That’s probably not a good sign.
nothing wrong with Martell's ankle.
One of his metatarsals has a hairline fracture. That fracture occurred in region of the foot lacking blood flow. The lack of blood flow slows the healing process.
Nothing would indicate that there is anything “special” about Martell that makes him more susceptible than anyone else to an injury of this nature, and people do come back from it. However, big guys like Yao may never recover from very similar injuries.
Not sure on Andre Miller
…but I definitely think we should roll with Martell.
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
“As for the Toronto thing, I am confused by the Blazer reaction. They removed Barrett’s post from their website and they have been extremely quiet.”
You mean, you would expect the Blazers would be gloating that they lured Toronto into making an idiotic deal?
(I don’t believe that was their intention, but, hey, might as well take credit for it)
I kinda wish that
Dave or Ben would write another article on the main page soon so I wouldn’t have to keep seeing Hedo when I log-in. I just want that guy to disappear.
by JoeBlazer on Jul 5, 2009 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Great perspective
Even as a non-Blazers fan I really enjoyed reading this. I linked it here, on the Free Agency Watch, http://davissportsdeli.com/wordpress/2009-free-agency-watch/.
I feel like a bullet was just dodged....
a 30 year old bullet with declining skills that would have hampered our cap for 5 years. Also, Hedo is an ugly mother. We already have Greg “Bark Face” Oden, we don’t need to get uglier.
OLP is the best thing Canada has given the world outside of maple syrup
one more thing
This entire Hedo Fiasco brings into question KP and the crews credibility as FA recruiters. If they didn’t know Hedo’s wife wasn’t down with Portland, they should have. If they knew the Turkoglu’s weren’t down with P-Town, they shouldn’t have made him their only target. In my eyes, KP has become human and has proven he makes mistakes.
OLP is the best thing Canada has given the world outside of maple syrup
I'll hazard a guess and hypothesize that KP has always been human.
I’ll also hypothesize that they knew everything there was to know about who might have accompanied Turk on the trip. I’ll go further and hypothesize that KP and his posse speculated on the relative probability of landing Turk, and knew that Toronto would require extreme measures to compete.
I’d wage my house that KP knew exactly what they could expect from Turk, knew that the last two or three years of his contract were meaningless from a salary cap perspective, knew that Turk brought a certain skill set to the SF position not duplicated by anyone on the roster (including Roy). I’d wage my dog on top of my house that the plan was to bid high enough to preclude Toronto from trying to match. I’ll wager my house, dog and right arm that they consider Toronto’s efforts to be surprising in their desperation. I’ll wage my house, dog, right arm and my left n.t that they have already moved on and are working on perfectly viable solutions to roster improvement.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 5, 2009 4:22 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I can't believe that I've read all 500 posts. And I'm pleased to come to the bottom with a great one like this. Very funny and on the mark.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I have a ton of faith in Pritchard.
Sometimes being silent is the best weapon. Remember folks… the western conference is getting older whilest we be young. Bob Wittsett made trades that looked good on paper but blew chunks when on the court. We have a cornerstone of an empire in Roy, Lamarcus, Rudy and Oden . The fact we let Hedo get away was a blessing in disguise. Andre Miller can be got for cheap. He is the final piece.
"I figured we ought to hang around for a while and see if we can give 'em all a nice big shitburger to eat!" -Manager Lou Brown -Major League
Heh
For the ‘we dodged a bullet’ crowd. At best you will get David Lee instead of Turk, for the same kinda money. Yea you dodged a bullet but got a missile headed straight at ya.
Remember Fred Jones? That "family" thing is BS.
It insults the intelligence of everyone involved, kind of like the NBA Cares ad campaign. Fred Jones agreed to take a lot less money than he could have received at the time to come to Portland based on that family rhetoric. Next thing you know he got traded, shafted by Blazers brass. Not that the team didn’t need to make a move, but you can’t argue that he didn’t get screwed in that exchange.
Shawn Marion
One thing lost here, Shawn Marion will be released. Any chance of picking him up?
Not sure if it would work
I would like to trade Darius Miles 9 million dollers contract to a team who could use it to drop off next year in the big free agent pool….we could send a young player (1 to 2 Mil) to go with that and Travis Outlaw (4 mil)…..we trade for somebody with one year left on a big contract like Tracy McGrady his contract will terminate next year we then use 9 million or more to sign a free agent next year….I am probably way off…..not sure just an idea
Short season
Let’s not forget that Turk’s Raptor seasons might be two months shorter than his Blazers seasons. For a guy with wife and kids, this could be important. I don’t believe playoff pay is all that much.
There are personal advantages to summer coming in April instead of June.
by Engineering Problem on Jul 5, 2009 10:18 PM PDT reply actions
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