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A Gentle Reminder



Every so often I get to write a post like this.  I dislike doing them, but it's necessary every now and again.

Things have been getting a little snarky and personal over the last couple of weeks.  Ad hominem attacks have been masquerading as sweeping generalizations in people's posts and comments.  If we don't call a halt to it early they'll spread faster than a Chris Paul trade rumor.  So consider this your reminder.

It's OK for people to feel, think, analyze, and prioritize differently than you do.  You can debate their assertions in a fair manner until the cows come home.  You cannot accuse them of being ignorant, naive, or not watching basketball.  You cannot get all up in arms every time somebody says something you don't like about a player, even if that's your favorite player.  You cannot shout down trade talk.  In fact you cannot shout down anything here.  Play fair or don't play at all.

Not only do we refrain from the above with regards to specific targets on this site, refraining from attacking the general masses is also part of the deal.  This is what I mean by ad hominem attacks masquerading as generalizations.  Saying, "Everybody here feels this way" or "Everybody who feels this way is a [insert disparaging remark here]" are area-of-effect attacks and are just as insulting, damaging, and derailing as person-specific attacks.  That they're overstated and incorrect doesn't help matters.  Most of the people reading and commenting here are smart, thoughtful, reasoned, and both capable of and interested in good conversation.  They deserve better than getting a flamethrower aimed at them because somebody is frustrated with something they read in the 5th, 15th, and 42nd Fanpost down the list.

Jerryd Bayless might or might not ever develop into a serviceable point guard.  Travis Outlaw may or may not fit into the Blazers' long-term plans.  Steve Blake or Andre Miller might start.  Martell Webster might or might not come back as good as new from this foot injury and his "new" might or might not be up to snuff.  Joel Przybilla could be traded or kept.  Pendergraph and Cunningham might contribute but might not.  Greg Oden could develop quickly, slowly, or not at all.  We can talk about these and a million other issues whenever you please.  You cannot give your answer and then expect everyone else to hush.

Do your best to have patience with each other, interpret what others are saying in the best light possible (instead of the worst), and to make this place welcoming and open to anyone who wants to talk about the team.  If you find something to be way over the line as far as personal attacks against another person or even a member of the team, flag it and let the mods look at it.  If you find yourself rolling your eyes at a topic or conversation, simply move on to another one.  Lord knows there's no shortage. 

All of that was the reminder.  Here's a free piece of wisdom for you to take along, which (as with all free wisdom) you are free to disregard.  But that doesn't make it any less true. 

When something is so obvious as to be self-evident people seldom get worked up when it's contradicted.  We all know the sky is blue.  If some guy came along and said that the sky is plaid you'd see one of two responses.  Either people would go, "Fascinating...tell me more about this world you live in" or they'd simply write him off as a nut and pass without comment.    Neither response brings out frustration, attacks, or shouting.  The subjects that usually bring out those responses are the ones we're trying very hard to see a certain way but we're secretly scared that way isn't as true as we're trying to make it.  That's when we can't stand to hear anyone disagree with us.  And just because that's seemingly the standard in entertainment-based public discourse nowadays doesn't make it right or productive.  If you're feeling ultra-frustrated about something, stop for a second and ask if you're frustrated because you genuinely think what the other person said is intolerably wrong or because you fear there's a chance they could be right.  If it's the former you'll probably be able to debate fairly or just pass on it altogether.  If it's the latter you're going to want to shout.  And it usually shows when you do.

The funny thing about all of this is, now more than ever everybody can just relax.  Whether the Blazers keep or trade Travis, move Jerryd to point guard or off guard, or start Przybilla or Oden they're going to be a good team.  This is going to be a good year...the best Portland has had for a decade.  It's time to let the fear and infighting that blossomed in the Jailblazers era go.  And it never needs to come back.  Spend 80% of your energy enjoying this team and 20% debating these issues.  That'll help us all keep the debates in perspective while simultaneously allowing us to have them.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

Comment 70 comments  |  5 recs  | 

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it is a good reminder

Thanks for the perspective on things. I know people on here are very in love with our blazers which is good but Dave is right and need to respect everyones thoughts.
That’s why I like coming on here and reading everyones comments. Most of the time they are well said and thought out, unlike another website (olive) where its all about your stupid for thinking that and your mom is dumb too.
I am glad that I came across this site as a blazer fan, not because of the world renown posts from Ben and Dave, but because this is where you find every stat on earth that each blazer has because someone on here knows it. Gets in depth. Come on, where else are you going to have fans on here that will come up with a look-a-like post of every blazer! I love it and let’s keep the gentle remnder intact.

by asimms21 on Jul 29, 2009 12:31 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

That is my excuse.

And I’m in South California, so I always have that excuse!

*Unless KP has a secret plan that makes this statement incorrect.

by staylost on Jul 29, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

excellent point

i love AC.

Although… for me it’s NOT unexpected. This is why I’m not staying with a friend during my visit but will instead get a hotel room. I definitely get cranky in the heat.

"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.

But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html

by ratbastird on Jul 29, 2009 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

sorry if i make snap judgement about groups of people who jump to conclusions

i just want to strangle them so bad.

"Everybody is crazy. It's just some people are more upfront about it." -fanfaraway
"love is only universal if you know what to do with it" -broyposse

by appel82 on Jul 29, 2009 1:28 AM PDT reply actions  

s/

lol

"Everybody is crazy. It's just some people are more upfront about it." -fanfaraway
"love is only universal if you know what to do with it" -broyposse

by appel82 on Jul 29, 2009 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm quick to criticize sometimes.

That odengasm post got everyone up in arms though. I guess I joined in on the mob mentality with that post and wasn’t very articulate in my comments, just mean. It would have been better to just not say anything at all. So that’s my vow from now on, no dumb, mean, thoughtless comments, especially in troll like posts I don’t agree with. We don’t want bedge to become a new espn comments forum do we?

The mods do a good job of deleting inappropriate posts rapidly anyway so why waste the time commenting on them?

Sternocleidomastoid is by far the coolest muscle name.
That and Gracillis.

by GoBlaze22 on Jul 29, 2009 2:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Thank you

Thank you PJ for the sacrifices you are presently making. I’m a veteran myself but never was deployed to a combat area. What you do while on duty every day allows us to do what we do in our "cushy, civilian lives." Glad you have something like BE to keep you updated and provide a little escape once in awhile. Keep your head down and come home safe.

by ClydeTheGlyde on Jul 29, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

thanks pearljam912 and good luck

you never know when a little extra good luck might come in handy so i’m sending you some just in case.

ignacio

by ignacio on Jul 29, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Short for "recommend"

If you click “actions” on the line underneath a comment or post one of the options will be “rec”. If you click it you offer your approval of the subject matter. Five or more recs and a comment turns green.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 29, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

What Kind of knuckleheaded post is that?

Just kidding.

Why do we jump off the wagon of civility when it comes to sports?
Ah, passion, such a fickle thing.

"It's not whether you win or lose, it's whether you win."

by hrtlndblzrfn on Jul 29, 2009 5:20 AM PDT reply actions  

Unfortunately

some people are unable to write off the nutcases. If someone writes that the sky is plaid there will undoubtedly be someone who replies “that’s the stupidest thing I’ve heard. Have you even LOOKED at the sky???!” That isn’t a debate, that isn’t an argument. ; it’s doing nada to change the plaid guy’s mind – or influence someone who hasn’t yet made up his mind. It’s pointless, unproductive, and takes up space.

"Portland's best years are still ahead. The Blazers aren't stalled yet. They have a ton of time left on the clock." - Dave, 06/29

by jorga on Jul 29, 2009 7:06 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

is this the place I come for confession?

My bad…. but I still think I was on the recieving end of more than I dished out.

just sayin….

The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.

"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."

-Dave

by faith on Jul 29, 2009 7:27 AM PDT reply actions  

Francis

My name is Francis…if you call me Francis……I will kill you…

by dawgman47 on Jul 29, 2009 8:02 AM PDT reply actions  

Aw heck

I called someone out and got rec’d green. Guess we’re all suffering from the heat a little…

by levelhed on Jul 29, 2009 8:03 AM PDT reply actions  

Thanks, Dave

That’s a very thoughtful post, and—as usual—you’ve figured out a rhetorical approach that ought to allow just about anyone to see the sense in what you’re saying. Nice job.

by VTDuck on Jul 29, 2009 8:19 AM PDT reply actions  

Thank you

Thank you PJ for the sacrifices you are presently making. I’m a veteran myself but never was deployed to a combat area. What you do while on duty every day allows us to do what we do in our “cushy, civilian lives.” Glad you have something like BE to keep you updated and provide a little escape once in awhile. Keep your head down and come home safe.

by ClydeTheGlyde on Jul 29, 2009 9:15 AM PDT reply actions  

hear hear

Well said and it needed to be said.

One specific example where it would help for people to be more civil: Because someone criticizes the ability of a particular player, does not mean they are a “hater”.

There has been a lot of criticism lately of Outlaw and Bayless’s performance.

I would bet that the vast majority of people who are critical of Outlaw’s basketball skills also think he is a heck of a nice guy. And I would think the vast majority of people who are critical of Bayless’ basketball skills also have tremendous respect for what a hard worker he is.

And while most player critiques focus on performance, which in my view is totally fair game, my recollection is that there have been a few that have denigrated the player himself, rather than focusing on a critique of his play.

The bottom line is that ad hominem attacks are inappropriate, whether they are directed toward someone making a critique, or directed toward a player or other member of the organization.

by lsjogren on Jul 29, 2009 9:17 AM PDT reply actions  

Risk and Potential vs Facts vs Extreme talk radio

Basically, as fans, all our conversations revolve around the risk and the potential of a player and of the team. I think it’s helpful for people to remember this. If what we declared were ACTUALLY fact, the front office would have already reacted. You see, they have a history of showing that they are MUCH smarter and MUCH better educated on the matters than the average fans. Occasionally we get a tidbit right, but that doesn’t make us smarter. It means a risk didn’t pan out or a potential did and in the end we got lucky with our educated or uneducated guess because it can ALWAYS go either way.

I also take strong issue with the extremes of talk radio that I see infiltrating this site. Extremes are ALWAYS harmful for debate and it destroys the quality of conversation. Not only that, but the people on the radio (or other media members) that spout their extremes and declare them fact, they have NO vested interest in the Blazers or the fan. Their sole purpose is to increase ratings. this is done by ticking people off and getting reactions. This is where I think Dave is wrong about the plaid.

The radio announcer can call the sky plaid. The fact it isn’t is so obvious that people will call in to correct the announcer. Then the Announcer will personally attack the callers of rational logic, put down their point of view, and twist the message to showcase how the caller is wrong with the use of twisted logical falsies. Others may now become engaged and the debate grows.

In the meantime someone is listening that hasn’t been outside for a bit, is blind, or just never looks up and they’ll be convinced by the argument because it sounds good to them. After all, the radio host just made the other person look like an idiot by shouting them down and throwing the caller off balance so their logical and sensible response became garbled.

The best way to react, is to ignore the people that want a reaction. The problem is that those people who need the attention know what buttons to push so they’re not ignored and a lot of people just can’t let go. it then feeds on itself.

Anyway, I think this was a good time for your post Dave.

"Fernandez, to my eyes, is the Blazer who walks that walk most comfortably. A lot of Portland's fans (egged on, dare I say, by their local broadcasters) lament things like how Ron Artest or Yao Ming get to hit Brandon Roy's arms.

But I suspect Fernandez sees all that and thinks: We get to hit arms! Cool!"

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-39-135/On-Playoff-Experience.html

by ratbastird on Jul 29, 2009 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Extremes are ALWAYS harmful to debate ???

 That sounds kind of EXTREME to me. Kind of provoca…. Oh yeah, time to ignore and move on….

by Berkeley on Jul 29, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

“Why do we jump off the wagon of civility when it comes to sports? "

You think that’s bad, you should read some political blogs sometimes.

And it’s nothing new. As I recall, some of the early US presidents, when they were campaigning, were subjected to rumors that were way over the top even by today’s standards.

by lsjogren on Jul 29, 2009 9:22 AM PDT reply actions  

What is it about sports (and politics)?

Well, both are inherently competetive, I guess—at least our American brand of sports and politics. I definitely see much, much more flaming on sports sites than on any of the others I visit (mostly set up for musicians, educators, or activists). These sports sites are also the only ones where I see as much cleavage in the ads, so I’m guessing there’s some testosterone involved.

I haven’t owned a TV in over twenty years, but when I’ve stayed in motels and seen sports shows fearuring several commentators debating a point, there is something competetive about it. It’s a slippery slope from debating a point in a civil tone and trash talking (which, I have to admit, I enjoy participating in on the court). Guess that’s why we need moderators.

by VTDuck on Jul 29, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wait... Chris Paul is getting traded?

Good reminder. Although I am on BE multiple times a day I rarely comment, but this post got me thinking about how really silly it is to not listen to other people’s opinions. Better to talk with people than to talk at people.

by GTMilla360 on Jul 29, 2009 9:29 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

things have gotten much better since the mods came into being

But still, there are attacks slipping thru the chinks in the armor, and even the tiniest piece of shrapnel can wound.

I feel fortunate to have found Blazersedge, and that all of you have made me feel very welcome. The friends I’ve made thru the site make it completely worth it (Andy, Roodie, BRP, etc.) And I want others to have that experience as well.

To anyone who feels I’ve attacked or disparraged them, I apologize. I do not mean to put anyone down in any way.

I think the recent swing is probably as much from this unbelievable heat wave as anything, but we can’t let the heat make us lose our cool!

Blazers win!

by The X-man on Jul 29, 2009 9:29 AM PDT via mobile reply actions  

I have to disagree

If someone told me the sky was plaid, i’d likely spend the next 2-3 hours trying to convince him it was blue.

by Bryan72076 on Jul 29, 2009 9:31 AM PDT reply actions  

That's cool too

As long as the points are fair…even if he is crazy. Another way to look at it is one crazy person is just one crazy person. Six people getting all crazy at the crazy person makes seven crazy people. Not only is that hard to read, it’s more credit and effect than the crazy point merits.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 29, 2009 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

And that's just the start of it

Then there are the 5-10 people who get all crazy on the 6 people getting crazy on the crazy person then several more people getting crazy on those 5-10 people and so on. Before you know it you have a thread full of crazy and little else. Crazy comes on a multiplying scale.., usually. Just the fact that it all leads to someone explaining how people getting crazy on people who get crazy on the people getting crazy on someone else who got crazy on a crazy person makes the forum crazy,makes it worthwhile to prevent whenever possible.

by Bryan72076 on Jul 29, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Posts like this make me crazy

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 29, 2009 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks Dave...

… I apologize if I have been guilty of any “snarkiness” and I will remember your words of advise. Like many here the Blazers mean alot to me…maybe more than they should. This site is populated by passionate, educated fans so I guess sometimes disagreements can be heated.

I am relatively new here and was wondering if someone could direct me to the “rules” for this site. I know they are here somewhere because I’ve seen them mentioned.

Thanks for the great site and for the great opinions given here.

by Ilikeemall on Jul 29, 2009 10:04 AM PDT reply actions  

Easy enough

Here’s the new person’s general guide: http://www.blazersedge.com/2009/4/29/859871/if-youre-new-to-blazersedge-now

Here’s the conversation rules page: http://www.blazersedge.com/story/2007/5/27/35733/4476

It’s pretty simple really. Talk about points, not about other posters. Debate with passion but be fair to other people’s points of view. Don’t swear. Make your post worth reading…bring something to the site rather than just indulging yourself. That’s about it.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 29, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree and think it's important to get a handle on this now

because it’s likely there will be an influx of newcomers if this season goes to plan and the vets will be needed to establish appropriate boundaries.

"I take the little gummy bear Flintstones vitamins…I try not to eat the lady. I try not to eat the man. Just give me the car. I try to find the car. Yea, worst case scenario, I eat the lady." - Ron Artest, 2009

by rivetz on Jul 29, 2009 10:29 AM PDT reply actions  

I've been wondering....

What ever happened to the new banning rules that you put out a little while back? I guess those in control of this forum have three basic choices:

1) Let people say whatever they want to say, even if it’s offensive and drives some people away

2) Set out rules for banning and enforce them

3) Continue to let people say what they want and attempt to herd those who continue to offend with periodic gentle reminders

I don’t think setting up rules and then not enforcing them is a viable option, but then that’s just me. Maybe the gentle reminder route works, since people seem to be a little better behaved then before the banning rules were set out recently.

I like this forum quite a bit and appreciate the massive amount of work it must take to manage it. If we all treated the forum as our mutual sand box, then maybe we’d be a little better at self policing the stuff we dump into it.

by kuhnsmith on Jul 29, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

They are being enforced

but that doesn’t mean reminders aren’t necessary.

Just because we don’t put the moderating front and center doesn’t mean it’s absent. It’s mostly invisible and private between the mods and the people whose comments they moderate. That’s an intentional choice on our part. I’m privy to the communications and actions of the moderators and believe me, they’re hard at work every day.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 29, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

And as another reminder

instead of complaining about people’s posts or getting crazy on them, just flag them so the mods can look at the issue. If you don’t flag they have a hard time finding potential trouble spots. This is your end of the community standards process.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 29, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Two of them

One to count how many flags we’ve dished out, and another to count how many we’ve earned.

Actually, that isn’t so good. We probably need a flags per 36 posts or something.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 29, 2009 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

&^%* all this kumbaya nonsense.

Dialogue schmialogue. We’re anonymous and I need an outlet for my frustration with my own life so I’m going to relentlessly bash our players as though their accomplishments haven’t exceeded mine. Spread the hatred far and wide!

by Benjamanic on Jul 29, 2009 11:20 AM PDT reply actions  

My skin is not made of Kevlar like yours. I am soft and fleshy.

If you cut me, do I not bleed?
If you strike me, do I not bruise?
If you fire an anti-tank rocket at me, do I not explode?

by MiledAnimal on Jul 29, 2009 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

We're more alike than I thought!

Beneath my hard exterior is a scared little boy who gets butthurt when people criticize Steve Blake.

by Benjamanic on Jul 29, 2009 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

What about snarky personal attacks and sweeping generalizations regarding Stephon Marbury

Inbounds, out of bounds? TOSS ME A PLAYBOOK HERE

"I take the little gummy bear Flintstones vitamins…I try not to eat the lady. I try not to eat the man. Just give me the car. I try to find the car. Yea, worst case scenario, I eat the lady." - Ron Artest, 2009

by rivetz on Jul 29, 2009 11:47 AM PDT reply actions  

Let's not get carried away here

If we can’t make sweeping generalizations regarding Marbury, there’s no point in joining a Blazers forum.

Wait.

Scratch that.

Just tell the truth about Stephon, and you don’t need sweeping generalizations.

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 29, 2009 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Basically..

If you were discussing sports with a grandparent and you think “I shouldn’t say that”, don’t post it.

Good rule of thumb, IMHO.

by halo_on on Jul 29, 2009 11:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Oh, that is awesome

for all the grandparents on the site. – Elgin

Without you out there, we're nowhere here

by 22baylor on Jul 30, 2009 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well written Dave

Thank you for the perspective.

The Dude: Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here!

by cavejunctionblazer on Jul 29, 2009 12:07 PM PDT reply actions  

"If you're feeling ultra-frustrated about something..."

Join BlogABull!

Being that ‘cool’ uncle that gets annoying after a week to BE readers since 2008!

USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 29, 2009 12:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Your waiting period keeps some knee-jerk posting away

Well, that and the moderator/editor publicly going into cussing and shouting matches with posters that make stupid remarks long before banning them :)

by Norsktroll on Jul 29, 2009 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know how to describe it. But I'm going to try anyways.

You simultaneously make us feel better about ourselves and scare us half to death. We’re glad we’re not as pessimistic as you guys, but we secretly fear turning into the next young team with promise that didn’t make it.

That’s some disturbed kind of relationship right there.

Maybe that explains why I read so much of your guys’ stuff. That, or you’re crack for the eyes.

μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.

Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?

by T Darkstar on Jul 29, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

BlogaBull

The trash heap that makes Dave’s clean house look so good.

Do we get banned from BlogaBull for things we say on Bedge? :)

When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.

by jscot on Jul 29, 2009 11:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

everybody can just relax...

Wow, Dave. That was so poetic, it was cool. Remind everybody that the team just got better with the acquisition of Mr. Miller …we can all afford to find peace, rest, and a bit of solace in that.

by boiseblazer22 on Jul 29, 2009 1:33 PM PDT reply actions  

You smell like cabbage

and your cat looks like a turkey…

Sorry, old habits die hard.

"No disrespect to Jeff Blake"

by Eat Politicians on Jul 29, 2009 3:14 PM PDT reply actions  

Hey Dave-

Something you said musta worked. Im noticing way more love in the comments towards others posts. Thanks again for keeping it cool.

Peace,
CJ BLazer

The Dude: Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here!

by cavejunctionblazer on Jul 29, 2009 3:47 PM PDT reply actions  

Nice reminder to me

for the next time any of us who has never earned a penny in the NBA posts a personal attack on KP or Mac for making the “wrong” decision or not making the “right” decision. I will show more restraint in pointing out the obvious “no plaid skies” fact that none of us “experts” could even get an interview for an NBA GM or coaching job.

by oldguyoldfan on Jul 29, 2009 5:16 PM PDT reply actions  

I like blaming it on the heat.

But Dave, in your hypothetical situations you failed to mention:

Brandon Roy could go to jail on DUI and weapons charges.

or

Greg Oden might just simply go missing.

Life is hilarious.

by SolGoode on Jul 29, 2009 5:22 PM PDT reply actions  

The Sky is. . .is plaid!

Why am I always the last to know?

"It's not whether you win or lose, it's whether you win."

by hrtlndblzrfn on Jul 29, 2009 5:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Oh, and ah, Last!

"It's not whether you win or lose, it's whether you win."

by hrtlndblzrfn on Jul 29, 2009 5:44 PM PDT reply actions  

nuh-uh

Without you out there, we're nowhere here

by 22baylor on Jul 30, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

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