If Greg is so terrible . . .
by Foofighting101 on Jul 28, 2009 11:59 AM PDT
Email
PrintWhy was he double teamed all last season? I was just watching a game from last season against Toronto. With three to go in the 2nd quarter, Portland gives the ball to Greg who backs down Jermaine O'Neal. After one and a half dribbles, Anthony Parker leaves Brandon Roy (yes, that Brandon Roy) to double Greg. Greg kicks to Roy who swings to the now wide open Rudy who hits the open 3.
Greg is raw, and in many ways a "project," but Portland was able to play (and start) the guy 20+ minutes a game and win 54 games. How many teams that win 54 games are able to give that much time to a guy who is still developing? If I'm the Blazers I have Oden study videos like this one:
Learning these post moves is just a matter of repetition and dedication. As he does, he'll begin to justify the double team even more, be able to create his own shot, and open up the floor for our shooters.
It's also worth noting that in the first quarter of the game against Toronto I was just watching, Greg literally blocked or seriously altered every shot in the paint in the first quarter. It's not sexy, and not something you'll see in a youtube highlight mix, but it's very important.
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How many....
more excuses are people going to make for Oden ?? He is obviously not the caliber of a starting center hyped to everyone…. A decent 2nd unit center though….
by NoKoolAdeForMe on Jul 28, 2009 12:12 PM PDT reply actions
hold up.
I may be convinced by the “not what he was hyped to be” argument. But there’s no way I’m buying “decent 2nd unit center” after one season from the guy.
That anti-hype is just as bad as the uber-hype.
All he needs to do is foul less (or more importantly, not get called for ticky-tack fouls). Then he stays in the game for 5-10 more minutes. Then his stats go up. Let’s just theorize that he’ll peak as a 14/10 guy who defends well… He’s still a top 10 center in the league.
Face it… good centers are the rarest of NBA players.
But I like to be here. Oh, I like it a lot! Said the Cat in the Hat. To the fish in the pot.
by you'vegottomakeyourfreethrows on Jul 28, 2009 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
Greg may or may not be a superstar.
But baring more major injury problems, his absolute worst case is an average NBA starter. There is just no way he can be worse than that. He was almost that good as a rookie.
Disclaimer: everything I know about basketball I learned on Blazersedge.
14/10, with minutes, is his absolute basement
His per-minute stats were about that, with more rebounding than just 10 boards a game of course.
And since he USUALLY was pulled for foul trouble, not playing-bad-troubles, you can reasonably expect his per-36 to stay steady and, most likely, improve as he gains experience.
Foul problems always go away. Someday soon, he’ll play 30+ minutes a night. Even if he never improves one thing with his game aside from not fouling, he is a top center. He just needs to be on the floor to show it.
Mortimer
Nope.
He’s a second string center at best. Have you even seen him play? The guy looks old. Old I say! His face looks like that of an old man! An old man!
Good basketball players are young not old. Therefore Oden=old=bad.
That’s why Ricky Rubio is so good. He doesn’t look old at all.
by Nick Van Excellent on Jul 28, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Heh heh
ah, the sweet song of sarcasm is light and lilting to the ear.
by llublazerfan on Jul 28, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
That ain't sarcasm
It’s satire. But as you say, it’s light & lilting to the ear. Not that anyone around here can lighten the mood like Mortimer.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Do you still think he is better than Dwight Howard, Mortimer?
Or are you blushing right now and cursing me under your breath for reminding everyone that you said Oden is better than Howard?
My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable, superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
-Albert Einstein
The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath one's feet.
-Lao Tzu
Huh?
Find me that quote. Ya won’t find it.
I think he will BECOME better than Howard, in time. You will find that quote many times over.
Mortimer
I think predicting he'll be better than Howard is bold enough
Saying he is better now at anything other than passing isn’t said by many, and not by me.
Morty
Mortimer does not curse under his breath
He curses behind your back. If anything he said Oden was better than Dwight was….AS ROOKIES!
by Sabonis4Ever on Jul 29, 2009 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not making excuses . . .
I called him a project. To say that he’s the next Bill Russell is just as short sighted as declaring he’s a 2nd unit starter.
by Foofighting101 on Jul 28, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
You know Bill Russell only averages 15 PPG for his career. He was a defensive game changer.
No one wanted Greg Oden for his offense, it was always for his defense and rebounding. Reasons we lost games in Roy’s rookie year. Oden was always the missing piece, and no doubt he is a defensive presence.
The fact that he is working hard to develop an offensive game better than your average NBA center is an added plus. Not a given. He should get encouragement.
by BRoyInThe4th on Jul 28, 2009 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
That's not a fair comparison
Russell also averaged 22 rebounds per game for his career. Marcus Camby makes a better example, or maybe if we’re lucky Dikembe Mutombo.
And it could be said,
that if Oden played during Russells era he would have averaged the same, or at least close to it…
If Oden played in Russell's day
Either Oden would average 40 and 20, or wouldn’t amount to anything. Either he’d dominate all the smaller dudes, or the up tempo style of the game back then would simply leave him behind.
But it’s safe to say that Oden won’t dominate this modern game the way Russell did in the 1960s. If Oden ever averages 22 rebounds per game in a season I will have a sex change so that I can marry him.
Russell didn't dominate in the 1960's, Russell's team dominated in the 1960's.
The Celtics easily had the overall best players of any team. Wilt dominated in the 1960’s and rather easily won his individual battles with Russell.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 29, 2009 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions
you might not need a sex change, dude.
Just move to Massachusetts or Vermont or one of them other liberal fambly values states (where the overall divorce rates are lowest in the country, BTW). Maybe Greg will marry you if you got a cute butt.
My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable, superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
-Albert Einstein
The journey of a thousand miles begins beneath one's feet.
-Lao Tzu
All the bigs got more rebounds in Russell's day
For one thing, they had more foul shots due to the “back court foul,” etc. Low lying fruit for the centers.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Generic Example...
Of an Oden detractor… even have the "KoolAde reference in your name. I’m pretty sure that you’ve already been told all the statistical and logical reasons to believe that Greg is on track to be a very good Starting Center in the NBA so I won’t waste time recounting them.
I will ask you for patience though. Judging a 21 year old Center on 61 NBA games, after a year off from microfracture surgery, and deciding he is not starting caliber is akin to letting Summer League convince you that Jeter should be our 3rd PG and Bayless is a Bust.
Not enough of a body of work at this time to make judgement… therefore I choose to believe that the best will happen and he will turn out to be a dominant Big Man… But that’s just me… I Got Wacky, Wild Kool-Aide Style…
+1
I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
by haildablazer on Jul 28, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Second Unit?
He’s a top 5 center in the league, in my opinion, and his per minute statistics back that. All he has to do is learn to not foul on every play and he’ll be well on his way to being a very good starting center. He’s already a good starting center. 2nd unit my foot.
um
i wont go that far, maybe eventually
bayless leaves over my dead body
by thomasikehara on Jul 28, 2009 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Best centers
IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER:
Dwight Howard
Ming Yao
Shaq
Big Z
Andrew Bynum
Mehmet Okur
Emeka Okafor
Tyson Chandler
Jor-El Przybilla
Chris Kaman
Marcus Camby
Andrew Bogut
Brook Lopez
Off the tippety top of my head, those are the top centers playing today. Some are overrated, some not that great, some old, but they are some of the “best” centers. As you can see, there aren’t very many good centers these days.
Oden is better than some of them, and at a very early age with many extenuating circumstances holding him back. And being as raw as cookie dough. He won’t be as skilled as Yao, or as athletic as Dwight Howard, but he’ll have as much of an impact on the game as anyone.
Mortimer
I would put Nene on that list
probably somewhere north of Camby.
I think the best example of Oden’s play is to watch game 4 and 5 of the playoffs series with Houston. Oden held Yao in check without help. Yes Yao still got his points, but he worked hard for them. Joel clearly was not as good as Greg in guarding Yao by games 4 and 5.
Nice catch, Nene!
And I’ve been a Nene booster all season as well, can’t believe I forgot him. He was my secret weapon for my championship fantasy team!
Oden defended Yao better than anyone I had ever seen guard Yao— at least the best a BIG MAN has ever guarded Yao. Little scrappy 6’7" defenders double teaming him have given him problems. But one on one, no one has handled Yao as well as Oden did in that series.
The game Yao went off, Joel had him one on one.
And most of it was just Oden being big enough to handle Yao’s bigness, and being great at fronting him— which he had never had to do before. He just gave a lot of energy and fronted him, and was too quick for the ultra slow Yao.
Mortimer
I must have watched a different series
All I saw was Oden frequently in foul trouble (I believe he averaged 4.5 fouls in 16 minutes per game, or roughly ten fouls per 36 minutes), while Joel was able to front Yao and cause him all sorts of trouble. Yao went off in game one because Nate made the mistake of trying to guard Yao one on one without fronting him, which you just can’t do.
I agree with Mortimer
Oden did a better job of guarding Yao than Przybilla did. Yao was just too big and too strong for Joel to handle, he was able to get deep position whenever he wanted and Przy couldn’t stop him at all. That is why the Blazers had to resort to doubling Yao, sometimes even when he didn’t have the ball, rather than let Przybilla defend him 1-on-1.
When Oden was in the game, he was able to pretty much shut down Yao 1-on-1. He did pick up fouls at a high rate (some of which I don’t think he deserved), but he also didn’t let himself get pushed around. With Oden guarding him, Yao was never able to really get going offensively.
If they take 2 C's for the All Star team...
then who from the West would be voted to the All Star team before Oden???
Al Jefferson
Because he plays at center while Love plays power forward, even though Jefferson is a more natural PF
by usdblazerfan on Jul 28, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Doubtful
I believe Love is listed as the center.
He'll never make an allstar game
He’ll never be voted on of course, no matter what team he plays for, and the coaches know Al Jefferson plays no defense. There will always be a PF picked over him.
M—
these aren't excuses...
they’re facts…
1)he’s just 21 years old…big men and point guards typically take the longest to develop
2) he missed his entire first year with injury…this would definitely hamper anyones growth, especially a guy who was only 19 when he was drafted
If at 24 Greg still hasn’t averaged a double double, then you can start complaining…until then, take a chill pill
"Smile! You're on a poster!!" - Mike Rice
I must respectfully disagree with you kind sir.
You are entitled to your opinion and I respect you as a person and all of your opinions but I disagree. Please note that I really do care what you have to say and that what you think about Greg Oden is important, as different points of view are good for conversation….that being said, puhleeeeease.
by dario argento on Jul 29, 2009 12:57 AM PDT up reply actions
awesome video.
i love the sound of the heavy leather ball on that old old hardwood.
GG MFer!
-joel przybilla
Four Years of College
Makes a difference in a players skill sets. I understand the financial considerations for Greg to come out early, but dang it four years of college produces a better player overall… in my opinion.
by Larry The Croc on Jul 28, 2009 12:27 PM PDT reply actions
Yeah, GO will continue to play catch-up
But so will Dwight Howard. And so did Moses Malone. As long as GO works hard and stays positive, he’ll get to the elite level. He has too much talent not to.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Oden will never be The Dream
Oden doesn’t need to and should try to duplicate what The Dream could do, they are different players. Oden needs to practice the jump hook until it feels right, because even in the USA mini camp he was still pushing it to the hoop, and that just doesn’t feel good when it is released. That is the only move he needs to learn and learn well, after that it is all foot work, moving without the ball, and defense. He will get 10-15 ppg just from rebounding put backs, foul shots, and 1 or 2 jump hooks a game.
Lets please please stop asking or expecting Oden to be a Shaq like offensive center, that is not his game, his ceiling is a dominating defensive center, if he reaches that the Blazers will be amazing to watch.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
I seem
to remember that Akeem wasn’t all that good offensively either when he first started in the NBA.
You remember wrong
He averaged 20.6 ppg in his rookie season with a 56% TS, to go along with 12 rebounds a game, 1.2 steals, and 2.7 blocks. Hakeem was also 22 years old and coming off 3 years of dominant college ball, so naturally he would be more polished than Oden.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 28, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
yes
and Hakeem was also a soccer player throughout his youth which created an emphasis on his footwork and translated into his unreal post arsenal. Hakeem and Kevin Mchale had the best post repertoire that I have seen in my 30 years following the league.
Greg and Jerryd both have the same problem right now; they think to much in the moment and are to concerned about doing things the “right way” rather than simply reacting to the play on the court. Greg simply needs reps and needs to practice, practice, practice. In order to be effective in the post he needs to be able to run 5 to 10 post moves each with 2-3 counter moves in his sleep. That day will come so long as he keeps his head up and keeps striving to get better rather than focusing on his detractors talking about what he “can’t” do.
by MadN on Jul 28, 2009 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't
think Akeem had his complete offensive arsenal until a few years into the league. Sure he could score but I don’t think he was as reliable a first option in the beginning as his career stats would suggest.
The Dream was fantastic, but he was actually only 6-9 or so
GO is a different type of player: potentially a dominant defensive and rebounding presence down low. The Dream had to develop that fadeaway jumper, etc., to compensate for his relative lack of height. He was able to thanks to his phenomenal athletic ability—including footwork developed from playing soccer as a youngster.
GO will never be the Dream, but neither was Nate “The Great” Thurmond—a player with whom GO has much more in common. And Nate was pretty effective; just ask Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
Hakeem was a legit 7 footer
Maybe like 6’11.5"
6'10.5" without sneakers
But I do believe he played his games while wearing shoes.
Look at photos of him standing next to Shaq. He was a head shorter.
"We don't back down to nobody." --Joel Przybilla
No, he wasn't.
The Chicago Bulls.....the more profitable Los Angeles Clippers.
by Ozzie Montana on Jul 28, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions
If Oden is at best a good backup center.
Go to a message board for every team in the league and ask them what they’d think of trading their current starting center for Oden straight up. I’d be surprised if you had more than a handfull of teams that were unanimously against the idea, which kind of flies in the face of the notion that he’s not a starting caliber player.
Mark my words-
Greg will be a career double double guy. He will win Defensive player of the year multiple times as well. He will be a KEY part of our championship runs and he will be one of the best defensive centers in the NBA. We have yet to see him play with a PG like Miller, but I guess he averages 10-16pts per game and 10-16rebs a game and 3-4blocks per game,plus like 2-3ast pergame this coming season. To me, Greg alters every shot because of his blocking ability and body size clogging the lane. If he never scored a point, but averaged a grip of blocks and rebs, we’d be fine. This team is overloaded with offense, so we dont need Greg to be offensive, just defensive like Joel.
The Dude: Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here!
by cavejunctionblazer on Jul 28, 2009 1:33 PM PDT reply actions
The more I watch Greg, the more I think
that Patrick Ewing is a good comparison. Like Ewing, Greg came in hyped as a once-in-a-decade center. But Ewing isn’t held up there with the Olajuwons or the Shaqs and even the Robinsons. He’s seen as kind of broken-down and awkward. But watch this (bonus: Eric B and Rakim soundtrack) – he was just like Greg in college – a raw athletic defender. And like Greg, he was always kind of clumsy and introverted. But he developed an offense that worked for him and had what should be a hall-of-fame career. And John Starks was no Brandon Roy…
The ONLY reason for that, is the rings.
If it wasn’t for Duncan, Robinson would’ve been in the same boat as Ewing. Had Ewing won even 1 ring, he’d be right there with the rest of them.
I don't think that's true
Robinson was a different breed. He was perhaps the best center at stealing the ball and once scored 70 in a game, to go with some monster overall scoring, rebounding, and blocking numbers. He is right on par with Ewing.
That 70 was...
…against the Clips. I think their starting center at the time was Bo Outlaw. (Yes, REALLY Bo this time.) Also it was on the final day of the season when Shaq and he were neck and neck for the scoring title, so his teammates fed him every time. Of course, he did manage to put them in, and Greg probably wouldn’t…
Robinson was actually much more like a giant SF in his game. He was a jump shooter. A good one, but he didn’t have anything like the offensive game of Olajuwon. His athleticism was otherworldly, though. He was a rich man’s Dwight Howard.
He's not terrible, he was just overhyped
If he can stay on the floor, he’ll average double digit rebounds, clog up the middle and throw in some putbacks. I’m satisfied with that.
Blazer Fan
My whole point was . . .
that even though he’s still raw and has a lot of improving to do, he still demanded a double team as a rookie, which opened up a lot of shots for guys like Rudy and Nic. Other things he does, like altering shots in the paint, aren’t sexy and don’t show up on youtube highlight mixes, but they still help contribute to W’s.
he commanded a double team
as it was really easy to strip the ball or force him into an awkward shot. He certainly did not command due to his offensive abilities.
I am still down for Greg, but I think that the fact that he was doubled at times does not show a positive aspect to his game.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
I disagree
He didn’t turn the ball over much for a rookie big, and they clearly double teamed him because on most defenders he could just back them down into a dunk, or great positioning. And no matter how awkward his hook shot was, it was a shot at point blank range that he’d make
He got stripped a lot early in the year, and while most of his non-dunks looked awkward, he didn’t force up a lot of them either. He was doubled because one big man can’t handle his load.
Mortimer
his turnover rate was not terrible
I would still argue that the double teams came due to the fact that Oden constantly lowers the ball to his waist, which is an invitation for a help defender to slap it away. The fact that he never corrected this tendency probably made it a very viable tactic for other teams.
Maybe Oden can dunk on just about everyone, but he seems to prefer to move away from the basket and put up his hook shot instead. I think the game plan with Oden is do the early work by giving him mediocre post position so he cant easily dunk and then just slide in a help defender from his blindside to discombobulate him. It seemed like a formula I saw again and again.
Life is exhausting when you are this stupid.
I will talk about DeJuan Blair no more forever
Greg's offensive game looks terrible
That said, it’s not completely ineffective 1 on 1. Okay, so he’s not Hakeem, but he can shed his man and roll to the hoop for a lob pass. You could see last year that he didn’t always have the leg strength to free himself, but this will probably come back.
I’m kind of enjoying the anti-hype, actually. 16/11 is well within Greg’s potential. Looking forward to “Mr. Overrated” using his low-skill game to control the middle in the coming years.
by Engineering Problem on Jul 28, 2009 2:20 PM PDT reply actions
I think we're fogetting everything good he did last year
Greg Oden drafted number 1 had 9 and 7 in 22 minutes. Considered not a good season, no room for improvement.
Yet Aldridge drafted number 2 overall a year before averaged like 7 ppg and 5 rebounds. Now on the verge of being an all star in year 4.
Oden’s PER is the best of a long list of rookies in recent years. Isn’t it like 18+. Once it’s in the 20’s then we are talking all star.
by BRoyInThe4th on Jul 28, 2009 3:04 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
also a reason why stats shouldn't be the sole determining factor when evaluating players.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Jul 28, 2009 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
It's because Aldridge was viewed as a project
Oden was supposed to be an immediate impact.
He was a project as well
Especially compared to the ready-to-score Durant.
Oden was always gonna be raw starting out, after 1 year of college ball. The micro and all that come with it just exacerbate the problems.
LMA wasn’t heavily hyped, so being decent is great, whereas Oden is one of those special centers who don’t come along often, so of course we want to see it as soon as possible. But, he was always raw and always a project.
Mortimer
What player with 1 year college experience has an immediate impact? What you're really saying is
you thought he’d average 20 a game. The immediate impact was to rebound and guard the rim. He did that. Blazers became one of the best rebounding teams, and Oden is the number 1 offensive rebounder in the league. What else do you want from him? What else did you expect from a rookie, who only player 1 year of college and coming off a serious knee injury?
Oden is doing a great job all things considered. Some Blazer fans actually think we drafted him for his offense. The ironic thing even though Oden is not known for offense, he still almost averaged 10 point a game in 22 minutes.
by BRoyInThe4th on Jul 28, 2009 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Players with 1 year of college experience that made an immediate impact:
The list is short:
Carmelo Anthony
Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose
Kevin Love
OJ Mayo
Eric Gordon
And what do these guys all have in common? None are true centers.
Every single one
of those players listed played on horrible teams their first year. All of them are offensive minded players,(except maybe Love) and most of them had horrible FG% their rookie year, yet had good ppg numbers because they were allowed to chuck alot of shots eventhough they made few.
Carmelo shot 42.6% his rookie year as the main scorer on a .500 team.
Durant shot 43% his rookie year as the main scorer on a horrible team.
OJ Mayo shot 43.8% his rookie year as the main/second scorer on a horrible team.
Love, Gordon, and Rose at least shot the ball well, but only Love’s PER compares with Greg’s, and Greg did it on a much better team than any of the 6 in their rookie years.
To me the stats say Greg had a MUCH bigger impact then any of these players. But as fans we are just as prone to stop reading the box score at PPG. All of these players avg more ppg then Greg so they MUST be better than him, and they MUST have had a much bigger impact than him. When the rest of the stats tell a different story.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Jul 29, 2009 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Great Point...
I think the quality of the team is very overlooked in judging Gregs performance. Obviously most #1’s go to bad teams… by design. We didn’t, and don’t, need Greg to be our Superstar.
lol those players made an impact? How about Oden helping Portland go from a 41 win team to a 54 win team.
Oden has been a part of more wins in one year than Kevin Durant in both seasons combined. If you are going to say those players made an impact, lets look at the wins.
by BRoyInThe4th on Jul 31, 2009 1:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Granted...
But Aldridge also didn’t have microfracture surgery. I think part of the problem is people have trouble seperating expectation from results. Without the inflated expectations Greg would look like a completely different player. I for one am not a big NCAA basketball fan outside the State so I didn’t really know GO was suppose to be the saviour…
We're also forgetting
the wrist injury that stopped him working on his offense in college. Despite that, he made it to the finals. Just like Mr. Walk-on-Water Derek Rose. Only HE never got injured. Or had to play post in a zone.
Even better if LMA watched the video
Forgot how smooth McHale was at getting to the rim. As opposed to Barkley and Malone, McHale was a lot more finesse, but found so many different ways to get within 2 ft of the rim.
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