The "Bayless hate" on this site, and on "95.5 the Game," is totally out of control
by upper left corner on Jul 25, 2009 8:45 AM PDT
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Bayless' critics seemed to be emboldened by SL and by the Miller signing. The number of dismissive and even ridiculing comments has just spiraled out of control. Are these comments justified? Was Bayless' performance in SL so bad? Is the Miller signing an indication that Bayless is on his way out of town? My answer to all of these questions is a resounding "NO." I acknowledge that there are very real questions about Bayless' future and legitimate concerns about his game, but we seem to have a collective case of jumping to conclusions based on very little information. Let's discuss this after the jump.
Three weeks ago before SL, while there was considerable disagreement about Bayless, there did seem to be a majority view which saw Bayless as a top young prospect with outstanding physical skills, a gift for scoring, a tremendous work ethic, and an uncertain ability to develop into an adequate distributor. I would argue that nothing has happened in the past three weeks that should have changed any one's opinion about Bayless.
Summer League's Great Expectations
Bayless' performance in SL confirmed what we already knew. He is physically gifted. He reconfirmed his ability to score, and shot better from outside than he did last season. He is an aggressive defender who needs to pick his spots in order to avoid picking up ticky-tack fouls and allowing his opponent to beat him off the dribble. Bayless averaged about 17 pts and 4 assists per game. What seems to have set off the rabble is the fact that folks expected him to have more assists and fewer turnovers. The fact that he didn't meet crazy expectations, and had turnover problems is now taken by many as "proof" that he "will never be an NBA PG."
I would strongly argue that Bayless was placed in a situation where he was almost bound to fail. In a very perimeter oriented league, he was given almost no one to pass to. The two SGs were something like 3-23 for the first three games of Summer League. The starting SF was a defensive specialist with a very limited offensive repertoire. Cunningham was essentially the only other scorer on the team besides Jeter who was backing up Bayless for the first three games.
In response to pointing out these very obvious facts, Bayless' critics have argued that it wasn't so bad. As evidence to support their claim, they point to the fact that Jeter, had a slightly higher assist total per minute than Bayless. My response is pretty simple: of coarse Jeter "looked better" as a distributor. Jeter was a four year starter at PG in college. He has been fairly successful in two years in Europe's top league. Jeter is far more experienced than Bayless as a distributor. Bayless had one year of college where he played out of position as a SG. He played only 600 minutes last season, and many of those were not at the point. Bayless is "very raw" as a distributor. It showed. Jeter is never going to be the defender or scorer that Bayless will likely become.
Certainly, many hoped that Bayless would show more in SL. However, the response of many fans has been a gross overreaction. Listen to Coach Prunty's comments on Courtside over at the Blazer website. He specifically said that he was very surprised that so many people had been so concerned with Bayless' stats. He went on to say that Bayless needs experience making PG decisions about when to pass and when to try to score.
I remain astonished by the number of people who seem to think that the court vision and recognition skills needed to make these decisions effectively are some kind of "mystical gift" that can not be practiced or improved. Part of being an effective PG is knowing your teammates and where they need the ball to be effective. The Blazers SL team practiced for a total of three days, and yet a couple of handfuls of turnovers are taken as "undeniable proof" that Bayless "will never be an NBA point." Such a notion is, frankly, absurd.
Miller Time
Now let's turn to the signing of Miller. What does this tell us about what KP and Nate are thinking? Of coarse, none of us can be sure of anything, but it seems likely that signing Miller is a case of KP wanting his cake and eating it too. He is trying to improve the team for the short term while still believing that Bayless is a good prospect for the long term.
Media reports suggest that KP had an opportunity to get Hinrich, but was unwilling to part with Bayless. Hinrich would likely be a better fit than Miller because of age and defense. The fact that he passed on Hinrich for Miller suggests that Bayless is still very much in his long range plans. KP also chose not to pursue Sessions. Bringing in another young PG would have been a vote of "no confidence" in Bayless.
KP likely hopes that Bayless can be talked into remaining patient this year while he works on his game. If Bayless shows rapid development, KP may even look to trade Blake's expiring contract prior to the trade deadline. If Blake is still critical to the teams success, he will decide what to do next summer. If Bayless demonstrates sufficient progress he is likely to become the heir apparent when Miller leaves.
Summary
I don't expect that anything I have written is going to change any one's opinion regarding Bayless' future. Everyone has a right to there own opinion. I would ask folks to at least think before heaping abuse on Bayless. You may not see his potential, but KP and Nate appear to have a different opinion. Please consider the possibility that your judgements may have been a bit hasty or harsh. If Bayless were the "bust" that many have suggested, would he have been a consensus lottery pick? Would he have been SL MVP? Would we have been invited to Team USA development squad? Would KP have turned down Hinrich to keep him? At least consider the possibility that he may have a future. Whether or not he becomes an adequate distributor, remains an open question. Any one who presumes to know the answer, at this point, is engaging in hubris.
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i addmit it
i now think that bayless is on his way out either before the season or in a deadline deal but i get what you are saying. i guess it would be a good thing to keep him around in case something were to happen to one of the guards and if he does improve thats great but i say if he shows not huge improvement by the trade deadline we should at lest put him on the block and see what we could get
Why would KP have taken Miller, over Hinrich and Sessions, if Bayless was on his way out?
by upper left corner on Jul 25, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Yep
Miller is a stopgap; a two-year place holder. His signing has absolutely zero bearing on JB’s future with this team.
Bayless is a 20 year old kid who’d be heading into his junior year at Arizona if he’d remained in school. As of right now, he is still the future at PG for the Portland Trail Blazers. If he hasn’t displayed the adequate improvement expected to step in and contribute when Miller hangs ‘em up, then I’ll start taking the speculation that he’s on his way out a bit more seriously.
In fact, you could even argue that the Miller signing may have been largely motivated by the decision to give Bayless more time to season without the added pressure of quarterbacking the second unit this year ( a role he was clearly not ready for) When looked at in that light, the Miller deal makes a whole lot more sense to me than it did when I first read of it ( I posted that it smelled of “desperation.”)
Looked at another way, if not JB than who exactly will man the PG position in two years time? With no lottery picks on the horizon, they won’t be picking up any suitable candidates via the draft. The possibilities through a trade or free agency are similarly limited. As ULC noted above, the decision not to pursue a free agent PG like Sessions was very telling. A signing of the much younger Sessions would have left little doubt that the Blazer front office did not see Bayless in their long term plans. Nope, like it or not, I’m betting that Portland has decided to cast its lot with Jerryd over the long haul. Pritchard did pull a lot of strings on last year’s draft day to bring him into the fold. It seems absurd that he’d be willing to cut ties with him based on a handful of NBA minutes and an indifferent showing in this year’s summer league.
by knickfan on Jul 25, 2009 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
Agreed
KP is a Bayless believer. Bedgers might as well get used to it, whether they like it or not.
KP did give himself one little “out” on that, though. Next year, if Bayless isn’t showing good progress, Miller could be traded as a nice expiring contract as part of a deal to pick up another PG. Or if Miller is renewed, he could be traded again the following year as an expiring contract.
We have two years where KP has kept himself a pretty decent trading chip on the salary cap front, if he needs to pick up a replacement. He’s given it up for now, but retained it for two years after that. So it isn’t hopeless to try and get a PG if Bayless doesn’t work out.
But I still think they expect him to be the perfect combo guard to play alongside Brandon.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Ths really comes down to two things
1) If KP gets a great offer for Bayless, he will deal him. But it would have to be a GREAT offer
2) Jerryd is going to have to learn (like Jarrett and Sergio before him) how to improve his game with limited miinutes. Preseason games. Before, after and during practices. Garbage time minutes during regular season games. These will be his opportunities. Signing Miller indicates that Nate and his teammates can’t afford to “wait” for JB to “catch up” The W-L record is too important, and the playoffs even more so
Is this fair? The NBA is not about being fair, it’s all about performance and production. Bayless has to look at Steve Blake as the “wall” he needs to get over. And it’s not really about talent, it’s about doing all the little things that Nate wants to see that will help the team win ballgames.
In the end, only Rex can determine if he’ll be a long-term Blazer. The assistant coaches can help. Nate and KP will show patience. His teammates can encourage him, but he has to do it. What 95.5 or Bedgers think may happen is irrelevant
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Absolutely
JB is not going anywhere. Furthermore, as I understand it, Andre Miller was not promised the starting job when training camp begins. Even though it seems ridiculous to think we would pay a backup 7 million, worse signings have, or almost have, occurred (See Turkoglu in 3 years, Rashard Lewis’ monstrosity, Tony Banks anyone?). What I think may be an interesting idea to investigate is: what did the management discuss with Blake and jb, if anything? The fact that, as I understand it, Miller is not a guaranteed starter, tells me that, in actuality, the starting and backup spots are open , to a degree since Miller WILL have one of them. However, the idea of competition should bring out the best in all three of them. JB is a competitive person, and I would not doubt that he would OK this signing. He doesn’t seem like the time to want something handed to him, he earns it. So if he has to earn his spot over Blake, he believes he can and he will. He will not blame the Media, KP, or McMillan if he doesn’t play. he fully understands that it’s a business, he can always work his way into the rotation, and it’s not like they never gave him a chance.
Win now. bayless isn't ready.
that’s why we signed andre.
we didn’t do it to give bayless more time, his clock started ticking at the end of last season, and will continue to tick until it runs out.
We gave sergio how long?
Jack?
Bayless will get that much time if not more becuase we do not NEED him anymore.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
or even less
…. time given to bayless, due to the “win now” attitude we can have.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
bc bayless isn't on the chopping block
(miller -no one) > (hinrich -bayless) > (+sessions -bayless)
I still like captain kirk more than miller, but if it comes at the expense of bayless this was a little risk high reward deal to pick up miller.
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 25, 2009 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
what about reports
saying that souces around the league say they hav been approached about trades concerning bayless.
I am sure that KP has tried to figure out Bayless' value, but look at his actual decisions....
….are they consistent with Bayless being on the way out? I don’t see it. Why would he have taken Miller over Hinrich and Sessions if he had given up on Bayless?
by upper left corner on Jul 25, 2009 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Hope he's not traded but...
Even with a short free agency shopping list in the making, there remains question marks surrounding the role of sophomore point guard Jerryd Bayless who — according to multiple sources — is being heavily shopped by Portland.
hoopsworld
by philthebballplayer on Jul 25, 2009 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Two answers to that
1. I never know which “sources around the league” to trust. Do you? That could be a rival GM just trying to stir up trouble in Portland. It could be the janitor in Boston who saw a piece of paper with “Bayless?” written on it. Who knows?
2. If KP talked to NJ about Devin Harris, and said he was willing to include Bayless, then he approached NJ about a trade concerning Bayless. So what? Would that mean Jerryd is on his way out, or would it just mean that KP is willing to give him up if we get a great player in return?
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
If somebody is ready to violate the cardinal rule of the NBA — Thou Shalt Not Trade Bigs for Smalls — then a deal for Bayless is theoretically plausible...
Other than that, Rex is here to stay, boys and girls… Get used to the idea.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
What if I can't get used to it?
What’s my alternative?
No mistakes in the tango, darling. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Your alternative? Support a bad team
Oh, wait….
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by HurraKane212 on Jul 25, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Bayless is far from a bust
I for one am not concerned about his stats at summer league so much as how his decision making looked. I must admit, I was thinking the Blazers should move him to pick up Miller or Hinrich or another piece. But they were able to add without subtracting, which is a major coup. Bayless still can learn and I hope that is what will happen while he sits behind two quality PGs. I think you are right about what the Miller signing indicates. Bayless isn’t ready. The Blazers want to be better than what he can offer this year but they didn’t bring in another prospect. He appears to be the future.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Given the cut throat nature of professional sports entertainment
and what have you done for me lately mentality, Bayless gets lots of love from the Trailblazers and fans. We carry him like a bouncing baby boy. There is still a lot of player development that needs to happen at the pro level and Bayless is now the recipient of that programming. Will he be turn out right? Who knows. Was it worth it in the case of Outlaw or Webster. Again, who knows. For now we need to continue his development program until it proves a success (or otherwise) or until he cracks under the pressure and demands to be traded to a team where he can get the minutes he deserves in the mold of Sergio Rodriguez (it was good for Bayless to witness that drama and its conclusion). Hopefully he understands his privileged place in society and his good fortune to be carried by a tem like the Trailblazers.
Bayless and Mills...
I realize this takes up another roster spot, but I’d like to keep both. Let Bayless learn from Andre, and then see Mills and Bayless compete for PG minutes when Patty recovers from his foot injury. We could trade one of them later if needed. If Bayless improves enough at PG, then the Blazers could maybe let Blake walk at the end of this season. Then go with Miller, Bayless, Mills next season.
Can Bayless be patient?
I think this is the biggest question regarding Bayless. If he can’t see that he is not ready and his ego won’t let him learn, he won’t be happy sitting. He may force the Blazers hand into a trade if he doesn’t buy into what KP selling, and i would wager KP is selling him exactly what you suggest. Wait one more year…please…
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Good question
On one hand we hear over and over about his work ethic and his coachability. These reports suggest that optimism is warranted.
OTOH, Bayless appears “confident” to a fault. I would guess that KP has some basis for thinking that Bayless is worth the effort.
by upper left corner on Jul 25, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Some of his quotes from SL make me nervous...
You want him to maintain confidence but also see that he has much left to learn. He really is in a perfect position for a guy to learn the game. Blake is no slouch when it comes to leading a team and getting the ball into the right hands. He chooses the safe option more often than not in his decision making which leads to low turnovers but not as many easy baskets. Miller will allow Bayless to see a guy in action who maintains control, like Blake, but is much better at taking calculated risks which result in easy baskets for his teamates.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Millers physical skills are a lot closer fit to Bayless than are Blake's
Miller could be an excellent mentor for Bayless, if he is willing. Ultimately we hope JB will become a better shooter and defender, but his bread and butter is his penetration just like Miller. I love the idea of Bayless learning how to dump the ball off to the bigs off the drive, and learning how to run a decent pick and roll.
Bayless + Oden + pick and roll = potentially unstoppable
It may take a few years for them to learn how to execute it properly, but I can see it in my mind and the picture is very pretty. Just think about Greg’s size, strength, speed, and hands combined with JB’s speed, hop, and super quick first step….
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions
How does he force KP's hand?
We have him for three more years on his rookie contract, and at least another after that.
And besides, he is competitive enough that if he can see his way to being the PG on a champion, that is going to be very appealing. Not if he is never going to get a chance, but really. The kid thinks he can be better than either Miller or Blake by next year. He might even be right — but he’s going to have to earn it.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
By being a word I can't say...
All I mean is he can make what he wants to out of his situation. He can learn and grow, or “force KP’s hand” by choosing to be pissed off and be a cancer in the locker room. Maybe a better way to phrase it is he can make the road rockier for everybody involved if he chooses to, which could then lead to KP choosing to trade him…that’s all.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Yeah, he could do that
but I suspect he is smart enough to know that would only hurt him in the long run.
More likely, if he gives up on Portland he issues a quiet request for a trade and continues to be a cheerleader and hard worker. I think he knows that is the thing that would A) protect his reputation and thus increase his value and B) make KP inclined to accommodate him.
He isn’t stupid, at all.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
i would hope
that our locker room is so strong that they wont allow anyone negative including bayless to effect them.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Jul 25, 2009 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
All I am going on are his responses in Summer League...
He appeared to be quite professional last year and I would hope that he remains so. But I wasn’t thrilled with his performance at summer league. Not so much on the court as when he fielded questions about his performance. Based on what I was seeing, a response like “I think I am doing better with some things but I have a lot to learn still” or “I made some good decisions and some bad ones but I think I am starting to see what I need to do out there, areas I need to improve in…” something like that instead of coming across as if his teamates were to blame and his rise to success was inevitable. If he really feels that way, he may have a harder time sitting this year and could have trouble containing his frustration instead of seeing his fantastic opportunity to learn from Blake and Miller.
I don’t know how he is going to respond…that is why I raised the issue in the form of a question to begin with. He may get his chance this season, lots of things can happen, or he may have to wait…I hope he has the patience to wait for his opportunity.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
one thing you can't take away from him is mental toughness
sure there are times he looks frustrated, but the dude is a pretty mentally tough guy. i would think once he fully matures as a player he will be even more mentally tough as he won’t have to worry about so many of the minor things he has to worry about now.
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 25, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I hear you, but I think Bayless should be cut a little slack for his frustration
He knew he had a lot on the line in those four games. He has been working his ass off since the season ended, and he so obviously wants to play and succeed.
Then he shows up to summer league and his back court mates are 3-23 and his SF is not a scorer. He got called for ticky-tack fouls on both ends, called for palming, and his teammates dropped passes and clanged shots. All of it made him look worse than he was, and he knew it. He had to know that his TO and Assist numbers where not up to snuff. He had to know that it would fuel the very controversy we are discussing.
I can’t blame the young guy for being a bit defensive, particularly at age twenty. Throwing his teammates under the bus was not pretty, but it was pretty understandable, and frankly, not altogether inaccurate.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly why it raises the question...
Can he be patient? I don’t pretend to know the answer. He has shown he is a professional and said many of the right things last year. But there have been a couple of cracks in the veneer. You can tell he has a tremendous amount of pride. He wants to show all the guys he played with growing up that are playing in the NBA that he belongs too. That isn’t necessarily a bad thing. He just might have a hard time biding his time.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
I'm not sure why this is a surprise
Preface: I think Bayless could be a very good player, but it’s too early to tell. I’m neutral. I just want what’s best for the team. And if Bayless is great, I’m thrilled. That being said…
The backlash was inevitable. There’s been a heavy crush on Bayless at BE ever since last year’s Summer League, and that crush has been strongly fostered over the past year (that topic could be a fanpost in itself). Of course, in reality, Bayless is a talented young player who could eventually be outstanding. But right now, he’s played a couple very good games, then teams adjusted to him, and he disappeared. He works hard though, and will deservedly get another shot.
Sooner or later, if enough people act like they have a man-crush on a player who really hasn’t produced yet, the backlash had to hit. And it hit this week with the Miller signing. Honestly though, there have been hints of it for months.
But this isn’t a surprise for a different reason: Let’s see, Bayless arrived with a bit of hype, fans got excited about him, and he showed glimpses of promise. But then some felt he underperformed (during the season and in SL, which shouldn’t even count). Now people jump off the bandwagon and onto the next big thing (Miller). Hmmm. That’s never happened to a young PG in Portland before, right?
I find it funny that people wanted to have Bayless play instead of the third year player who was a talented passer but who couldn’t hit a three. Now some people are thrilled that Bayless will take a back seat to an experienced player who is talented passer who can’t hit a three. That’s not a knock on Miller (who’s actually proved he can produce on every team he’s played, and will likely mesh with Nate better), but still. Fan is short for fanatic, and they get finicky. Old and Busted vs. New Hotness and all.
This is just the latest cycle. And honestly, some backlash against Bayless was far overdue. But if Bayless produces, this entire hype/backlash situation will be completely forgotten, except for those few who want to trot it out to make some kind of point. When doing that, they’ll forget it’s a truth in sports: fans will be fans. They’ll come around if a player plays well. Brandon told Greg Oden that exact thing last year, and it’s no different here on BE.
Either Bayless will produce, or he’ll be traded in time. I know it’s Summer so we need stuff to talk about, but it’s really not that big of a story. It happens on every team. Some people just really like Bayless, and he’s received an inordinate amount of attention from BE for a rookie on the bench, so it’s morphed into a bigger story here.
by Timmay! on Jul 25, 2009 9:31 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Miller similar to Sergio?
I get your point but if Sergio played anything like Miller in other aspects of the game (penetrating and finishing, drawing fouls and converting, playing under control, playing consistently) he would have been the starter two years ago. I get your point about the fan thing also…Miller wasn’t my first choice but now I know for sure he will lead the Blazers to the Finals…
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Yeah I figured that would catch a few people off guard.
Let me put it this way. If Sergio developed really well, he’d have an outside chance of having Miller be his ceiling. But in reality, if Sergio grows as a player, they’re really not so different. Most players improve on defense as they get more experience. And if Sergio can learn to finish at the rim (he picked up that floater in the lane during the season), he’ll get more fouls.
That was just a side point on my way to the bigger conclusion, which is that fans will be fans.
I forgot to add:
The difference between Sergio and Miller is hope vs. reality. Portland didn’t want to wait and hope anymore (at least, not with two PG prospects). And I don’t think Nate was the coach to bring out the best in Sergio either, if there’s a best to be brought out. So he was the odd man out.
KP was ready to win now, and Miller was an immediate upgrade. We needed a steady experienced hand on PG, and here we are.
All good points!
The Blazers see their window opening and need players that are ready now. Miller fits the bill. The value of the contract is selling me on him even more. I really thought they might overextend in years and/or money and end up shooting themselves in the foot.
I have a tendency to think Sergio will not become Miller. He has great court vision and has improved some aspects of his game but I think he will always be a guy you have to play and be aware of the trade offs. I could be wrong. Maybe he will find the right team/coach and make us all cry.
PTB Liberation Day - 2/10/04
Lots of good points. Expectations are frequently out of line.....
……fans are frequently impatient. They have a hard time waiting for young players to develop into mature professionals. Most want results immediately, if they aren’t forthcoming they turn on players quickly. Others get overly attached to young players and can’t let go when a player doesn’t fulfill their promise or doesn’t meet the teams needs. I know I have been one of Bayless’ biggest boosters, and have struggled to remain realistic in my assessments. I’ve tried to express the potential I see, while still acknowledging the obvious limitations in his game at this point in his development.
Part of the problem for Bayless is that a lot of Sergio fans were more than ready to find fault with his game. As Jake pointed out somewhere in this thread, people criticize and hate on JB for not being a “pure point” when he is never going to be that type of player. A lot of the debate isn’t about whether or not JB will become a pure point, the real debate is over whether or not the team needs a pure point or a combo guard who can defend the one.
It will be interesting to see how Miller fits in. On one hand, he is a scoring, penetrating guard like many of us hope JB can be. OTOH, he is an excellent playmaker and distributor. Bottom Line: I hope that JB is willing to learn, and I hope Miller is willing to teach.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions
lol, someone complaining about the bayless hate?
from what i’ve seen, bayless hate << outlaw hate or sergio hate or mcmillan hate
"There are a few teams you have to watch out for in the fourth quarter."
"Yeah, but Portland definitely is not one of them."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters at the end of the third quarter with the Hornets leading 74-59. Portland later ends up winning 97-89.
"They don't mind him shooting that shot at all. Rudy Fernandez is not that great of a 3pt shooter."
-New Orleans Hornets broadcasters right after a Rudy Fernandez missed 3pter. Rudy Fernandez finished the game with three 3pters on six attempts.
by Tofu Anonymous on Jul 25, 2009 9:31 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm a huge B-Rex fan
but I have to agree. Bayless is only getting his now. Outlaw, Sergio and Nate got it all year long. I was wondering a couple of months ago who would be the new target for hate. I didn’t see this coming, but maybe I should have.
My next question is: If Bayless and Outlaw are traded, who’s next? Martell is my guess.
and Channing! Don't forget dear Channing!
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by Honka Playboy on Jul 25, 2009 10:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Outlaw, Sergio and Nate got it all year long.
Very, very few people complained about Nate overall last season. He only gets listed because each time someone did bring it up, a bunch of people yelled “How dare you complain about Nate! Everyone always complains about Nate! They say ‘hurr hurr, Fire Nate!’ all the time!”
Then the same thing would happen again 3 or 4 weeks later, or during a short losing streak. It’s closer to the level KP got over the Summer, than the level Outlaw or Sergio got during the season.
But everytime it did happen, it was visible and people yelled, so it became a myth that people complained about him all the time. A myth that continues…
The RealGM conversations about Nate are usually more interesting than the BE ones, honestly.
For the first 10 pages or so, they actually talk about numbers and legitimate concerns, and have an enlightening conversation about his pros and cons. It goes downhill fast from there, sadly, and turns into “he’s great!” “he sucks!” “you do!” “no, you do!”.
It’s unfortunately tough over here to have critical conversations about Nate… posters tend to get shouted down quickly and treated like they yelled “fire Nate!” whenever Nate is questioned at BE. Then there’s grumbling about “how often it happens,” when it’s actually fairly rare. I’m not sure how that got started, because analysis of coaching is a very interesting topic. Nate’s simply polarizing for some reason, just not at a 50/50 happy to unhappy ratio.
It’s probably because it’s impossible to be positive what effect a coach is having on a team. In some ways, an opinion on coaching is a test of faith for some people, while others will attempt to quantify it. It’s a lot easier to judge a GM than a coach, IMO.
Most of the Nate-hate came from Spain actually, ha ha.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
lol
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on Jul 25, 2009 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Part of the difference is timing. Sergio got three years, Outlaw six, Bayless hasn't even started his second fall camp.
I agree that a lot of folks on the site have been impatient with Sergio and Outlaw.
Sergio played some of his very best ball during the last month of last season. He seemed to be figuring things out and becoming more confident. Now Sac-town will get a better Sergio, almost for free. Jack just signed for $6 mil/season in Toronto.
Outlaw is still developing. His shot selection improved last season and his three point % is way up. He still doesn’t rebound much and his block-outs are a joke, but overall he is improving.
People have unrealistic expectations, then when they are not met immediately, they turn on the player in question. My point is that the situation with Bayless is a particularly acute case of this problem. Fans were expecting Bayless to dish 10 dimes a game to a lousy roster after three days of practice. That is just ignorant. Then when he doesn’t do the impossible, it is “he will never be a point guard.”
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions
what is bothering me is that people are anti-Bayless because he's not a true PG
Of course he’s not a true PG— that’s exactly why so many of us thought it made sense to draft him! For ages we’ve said that Roy’s ideal backcourt partner would be someone who could defend PGs, bring the ball up the floor, initiate the offense sometimes, but mostly be very comfortable as an off the ball scorer. Bayless was drafted because, at full potential, he’d be an outstanding backcourt partner for Roy.
So, if you are down on Bayless because you aren’t sure he’ll ever defend well enough, score efficiently enough or develop even the modicum of PG skills he’d need for that role, fine (I am)… but don’t be down on him because he’s not a “pure PG,” because he was never drafted to be one.
by jksnake99 on Jul 25, 2009 9:45 AM PDT reply actions 13 recs
Thats why I have been down on Bayless/Jack....
You are probably right that he wasn’t drafted to be a pure point, but that is what I want next to Roy. I never liked the idea of making Roy not only our primary scorer, but our primary distributor as well. Too much responsibiltiy, too one dimensional and dependent on Roy being healthy. That is the one thing I like about the Miller signing, he is going to take a lot of pressure off Roy as a playmaker and help reduce Roy’s wear and tear. I think asking Roy to distribute and score is going to wear him down season after season, plus Roy hasn’t shown much of an ability to get the bigs easy buckets off the pick and roll. That is where your pure point becomes invaluable, getting the blazers plethora of offensive weapons all involved. Bayless has a long, long way to go in that department…
Happy to green it.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Rec
Truth is we still don’t KNOW who Rex will be.
To piggyback on your point, I looked through the list of all-NBA shooting guards. The most recent one I saw who was paired with anything remotely resembling a “classic” point guard was Reggie Miller (Mark Jackson) back in the mid to late 90’s – which makes sense because Reggie was a pure bomber.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I&feature=channel_page
by The Cactus Leaguer on Jul 25, 2009 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
have to rec this
coming from one of the most vocal anti-bayless people on the site, this was a refreshing post. your ability to have conversations with your bias put aside is immeasurable. i applaud you fine sir.
Problem is that most people expected him to be a good scorer.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Bayless's SL was dissappointing
because of how he played. He turned the ball over like it was going out of style, and they weren’t “good” turnovers either. He could committ offensive fouls, jump in the air with no one to pass to, drive too far under the hoop with no one to pass to, throw bounce passes at big men’s feet who were on the move to the hoop. The only assists he got where passes to jump shooters like Cunningham.
His own SL coach couldn’t trust him to run the team, so he brought in Pooh Jeter to finish the games at the point and moved Bayless to the off guard. In a SL that was suppose to feature Bayless as a pg that says more than anything else to me.
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by usmcr3049 on Jul 25, 2009 10:02 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
He had plenty of dishes to the corner, resulting in clanged open looks.
About half of Rex’s TOs were bad and about half were incidental. You get blown for a charging foul? That’s a TO, whether it’s a good call or not. Ref blows a “last touched by call” (like they did on him), that’s a TO. Etc.
Look at it this way — Philadelphia’s big hope at PG, Jrue Holiday, had 9 points and 5 TOs in his first summer league game… I’m WAAAAY more comfortable with Rex’s 17 ppg. average (despite the TOs) as the 3rd string PG in Portland.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I think you sort of made the anti-bayless point for everyone in that camp....
In response to pointing out these very obvious facts, Bayless’ critics have argued that it wasn’t so bad. As evidence to support their claim, they point to the fact that Jeter, had a slightly higher assist total per minute than Bayless. My response is pretty simple: of coarse Jeter “looked better” as a distributor. Jeter was a four year starter at PG in college. He has been fairly successful in two years in Europe’s top league. Jeter is far more experienced than Bayless as a distributor. Bayless had one year of college where he played out of position as a SG. He played only 600 minutes last season, and many of those were not at the point. Bayless is “very raw” as a distributor. It showed. Jeter is never going to be the defender or scorer that Bayless will likely become.
Experience is what it takes. 6 years for Jeter to just be able to play well in SL. Granted, he has physical limitations that Bayless doesn’t, but I am talking decision making here. 6 years, can we wait that long for Bayless to figure it out? My answer is no…
Also, there is plenty of excuses as to why Rex didn’t get many assists. I am not worried about the 4 per game total, that is ok. Its the 6+topg that you really didnt address and those are what make it pretty obvious that he is far from ready to play point at the nba level. I think the Miller signing backs this up. As you have said before, you are what you guard. And Bayless can only guard points, so he has to figure it out how to take care of the ball and make good decisions. That will be an uphill battle to say the least….
No one is asking for six years of patience.....
…..on the other hand, being ready to write the kid off, at age twenty, after 600 minutes of PT and four summer league games is uh-mm….ludicrous.
Sergio wore out his welcome with most fans in his third year. Many Sergiophiles who wanted more time for their guy are unwilling to give Bayless anywhere near the patience they extended to Sergio. Sergio had consistent TO problems his first two seasons. Bayless actually wasn’t too bad last year. He was trying to do more with less skilled teammates in SL and picked up more TOs as a result.
The rush to judgement is extreme.
by upper left corner on Jul 25, 2009 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Scratch a Rex hater and you will find a fan of The Spanish Whiner under the veneer...
Many Sergiophiles who wanted more time for their guy are unwilling to give Bayless anywhere near the patience they extended to Sergio.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jul 25, 2009 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What about me?
I was apathetic toward Sergio Rodriguez and, moreover, constantly mocked those who thought he had anything beyond minimal trade value for the longest time. I was proven correct in the end, too, for Rodriguez was essentially dumped as a means to cut payroll.
Of course, I’ve got my ride hitched squarely onto the Kirk Hinrich bandwagon. Heck, even in light of the Andre Miller signing, I still suggest packaging Steve Blake, Travis Outlaw, Jerryd Bayless, and some sweeteners — such as Victor Claver, Joel Freeland, Petteri Koponen, Patty Mills, et cetera — in a deal with the Chicago Bulls for Hinrich.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
Poor AK
The holder of forlorn hopes.
Love that will forever be unrequited.
For a decent but not great player, no less.
If you held a hopeless dream that LeBron would come to Portland, I could understand that one. Or Deron Williams, or CP3. It would be a useless hope, but an understandable one.
But Captain Kirk?
The only reason most people dreamed about him was because they thought he might be attainable. Like the pretty girl in high school who wasn’t the homecoming queen or anything, but definitely pretty and just nice enough to you that you could hold out some hope.
But not AK. We know KP isn’t going after Hinrich now, and that he probably isn’t available anyway. That doesn’t stop AK. AK goes on dreaming about his friend from high school even after she gets married to someone else. There’s another girl who is available and almost as pretty — in fact, some of her features are better than the object of AK’s affections. But he holds to his dreams.
Perhaps that girl will get divorced, and become available. Perhaps Hinrich will be looking for one last chance with a contender in 6-7 years. AK will wait, just on that chance. And dream. Hopelessly.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 26, 2009 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I almost spewed my morning coffee reading this!
Laughter is good for the soul.
Miller and Hinrich, AK’s unrequited flames!
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 6:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I think this "hate" comes from unmet expectations.
It’s always been the case, I think. Jack, supposed to be our starting PG for years to come, shows that he’s not really suited for that. Outlaw, supposed to improve even more, turns out to be pretty much the same as last year. Bayless, supposed to be the answer at PG to work with Roy, turns out to be not meeting that role. Whether all these things actually happened or not doesn’t matter. It’s the perception that they happened that feeds people’s emotions.
For me, his summer league performance combined with his reaction to that performance is what really turned me off. He wasn’t good out there. No matter whose fault that was, he just didn’t really show that much. But Bayless was quoted as thinking that he did pretty good out there, even showing that he was ready to play at the 1 on a consistent basis. I would have rather he owned up and admitted that the performance was bad. I would have been a lot more willing to wait and see how he came to conquer that obstacle. But he doesn’t seem to see the obstacle. That’s disheartening to say the least.
I hope Bayless turns it around. I hope Bayless becomes a great player. He’s a Blazer, and I love him because of that. But it may be that he’s better suited to become that great plyer somewhere else, on a team that needs him to work his strengths and can overcome his weaknesses. I don’t see that as Portland right now.
μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.
by T Darkstar on Jul 25, 2009 10:13 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
It’s the perception that they happened that feeds people’s emotions.
You’re absolutely right that this is an emotional issue, and not a numbers one. Charts of numbers won’t change anyone’s mind.
For me, his summer league performance combined with his reaction to that performance is what really turned me off.
Two for two, TD. Say I had an employee to whom I gave leadership of a young group. The group fails, but in a non-essential task that won’t hurt the bottom line. If he responded to the failure the same way Bayless did, I’d lower my expectations on his ability to be a leader. His responses to his performance were eye-opening and left me unsure of his long-term role. The good news is that we do need complementary leaders, and that the starting PG isn’t always a vocal leader on every team.
Quote
For me, his summer league performance combined with his reaction to that performance is what really turned me off. He wasn’t good out there. No matter whose fault that was, he just didn’t really show that much. But Bayless was quoted as thinking that he did pretty good out there, even showing that he was ready to play at the 1 on a consistent basis. I would have rather he owned up and admitted that the performance was bad.
You know what his post-summer league attitude reminded me of? Martell’s attitude his first couple of seasons in Portland. I think you can draw some interesting parallels between their circumstances: both were drafted as lottery picks as the result of draft-day machinations; both entered the Blazers fold with a great deal of hype; both faced initial struggles; and both exhibited signs of hardheadedness and of having all the answers despite those struggles.
I’m very much pro-Bayless while also acknowledging that he hasn’t done much of anything to warrant that support yet. But I think if Martell matured and put it together mentally, then there’s no reason to dismiss the prospect that Bayless can do the same.
The Michael Ruffin of BlazersEdge, cuz Amlmart said so.
by BlazersOrBust on Jul 25, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
In general I agree with your point, however Martell was portrayed in the press as being tough to coach.....
and I don’t think that has been the case with JB.
I think folks should cut JB a little slack for his frustration at SL. It may not have been extremely professional, but it was pretty understandable. A twenty year old who wants to please is bound to be frustrated with a situation where his teammates and a few ticky-tack calls (palming and offensive fouls that would not have been called in the regular season) and poor play by hi teammates made him look worse than he really was.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions
knowing fan opinion
and that people would just look at the stats and not why they happened, I’d probably want the blame to be properly distributed myself. I mean, Jones and Gardner laid down under the wheels of the bus while Bayless backed up, they were hardly thrown under.
Bottom line, they were rent-a-teammates and it’s their inferiority that lead to several turnovers.
I never understood the glorification of the “it’s on me” attitude where a “leader” is praised for taking the responsibility for a whole team’s actions. Crap happens, people bobble passes, people make bonehead plays. The fiction of a leader taking the blame for the mistakes of his teammates is played out in other sectors like business and politics as well, I think it’s silly and unhelpful when blame is clear. Perhaps Jerryd should have said “Hey, these guys aren’t used to playing with me. Also, Roy, LMA, and Rudy have really good hands so a lot of those passes would have been buckets.” Maybe by spinning it as praise for his real team, it would have been received better.
Come on you gotta listen unto me,
lay off that whiskey and let that cocaine be. ~Johnny Cash
by HurraKane212 on Jul 26, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I have to agree...
..to me the same performance in the SL might have been acceptable if it would have come with statements about how he needed to work harder to improve and how he needed to take better care of the ball instead of the,“if I had better guys I’d have looked better” attitude he seemed to have.
I know SL doesn’t mean alot… But attitude does and I was very disappointed with Rexs’.
I just don't think he fits in Portland
When talking about Bayless, most people talk about him in the context of other point guard options like Blake, Miller, Hinrich, or Sessions. This is reasonable as the Blazers up until now seem determined to make him a point guard.
However, to me it doesn’t come down to Bayless v. other point guards, but down to Bayless v. Rudy. I think Bayless would be most productive as a backup 2 while playing some minutes at the 1 with Roy. It’s clear to me he’s simply not a point guard, and the Blazers are making a mistake trying to square the peg.
Now, I’d rather have Rudy at the 2. But I don’t think Rudy is willing to be Roy’s backup forever, and it might be more beneficial in the long run for us to trade him. There are a lot of teams who would love to have him as a starter. Can you picture him on the Bulls, or the Hornets, or the Knicks? Of course we wouldn’t give him away, but I just don’t think he’s hanging around Portland to be Roy’s backup much longer, one way or another.
adendum
I sort of changed my thought midway through, without updating the title. I should say I don’t think he fits on the roster right now, unless Rudy is moved and they decided he’s a small 2-guard. If they insist he’s a point guard, or they don’t make room behind Roy, he’s going to languish.
That's about right
It’s not hateful to point out that Bayless is simply better suited to the 2-guard. I like him a lot, but don’t think he’s a PG and don’t want to see him languish behind Roy and Rudy. I also am not convinced that you can turn someone into a PG witha few years of coaching. I think you need to grow up seeing the court with passing in mind and developing those skills throughout your life. I really think Bayless is a scorer, and can be a great addition to a team that needs an explosive scorer at the 2-guard. Nothing hateful there.
It depends on your definition of a PG
If you are wanting a “pure PG,” then you are probably right; the chances of Bayless becoming a pure PG are probably pretty slim. I don’t think he needs to be a “pure PG” for the team to succeed. I think we need an efficient combo guard who can defend the point.
Another argument I have with your comment is that I question Rudy’s ability to ever consistently defend the point. In addition, Rudy is a good passer, but he doesn’t have a great handle. Bayless is going to be at least an adequate defender at the point, and he may be better than adequate.
Given that both Rudy and Roy have excellent passing skills, I would argue that what we need is someone who can play off the ball and share distribution responsibilities. For that matter, Blake only averages 5 assists per game. Bayless averaged nearly 4 assists per game in 20 min of PT during the time Blake was injured. Bayless does need to be considerably better at making decisions and he needs to cut down on TOs, but that doesn’t seem like a huge stretch given his lack of experience.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions
This is an unfortunate byproduct of mass exposure via the internets.
I remember the days when you wouldn’t know anything about draft picks until the season started. And then you still wouldn’t know much because most draft picks don’t play much their first few seasons anyway.
Now there is so much information available before the games are even played, everyone thinks they can evaluate who will be the best and who will be the bust. The truth is we don’t know anything other than that we have a 20-year-old point guard who is better at scoring than passing, and he needs to improve on the latter because one-dimensional players don’t fare well in this league. Furthermore, we have a team who is ready to win NOW, and we can’t wait for our young guns to develop on the fly, so we went out and got someone who can help. Bayless is a good young player, but probably just isn’t ready for the role the team wants to give to him.
"These are dreams that we have." --Rudolfo Fernandez
We should change him from "Rex" to "Frankenstein"
Because he’s an ongoing experiment. The Miller signing sure seems like he’s on his way out, but I wouldn’t be surprised if we gave him another year to see how his development goes.
Unfortunately, I don’t see him working out for the Blazers. It’s going to be a Sergio-type of situation where he’s just going to work better on another team. Hopefully we don’t get rid of him for as little as we did Sergio. He’s obviously more valuable than that.
I like Bayless the same way I liked Channing Frye. He’s a great kid but probably isn’t going to last with the Blazers.
Life is hilarious.
disagree
Bayless just isn’t ready right now. It’s way too soon to give up on him.
Miller’s two-year contract with a team option for three just shows that they are going to wait on Jerryd. Read jsnake99’s comment above.
"I been ridin' the midnight train, got ice water in my veins." -Bob Dylan
"Sasha? That's a sissy name." -Mike Rice
good post. I am in the same camp
I also believe KP hasn’t given up on Bayless yet. But the problem in this thinking is: how is Bayless gonna improve by February trade deadline or by end of the season without playing any significant minutes? Looks like he’s gonna get even less minutes this season than last. And we all see how minimal his improvement has been from 2008 to 2009 given that kind of minutes.
So how can we be sure that he is ready or not without giving him consistent, backup PG minutes? I know they have practices but let’s be realistic, players can hardly be developed in this league just by practice. Maybe possible for other positions, but not for PG.
I don’t want to take the pessimistic route here, but it’s likely we will still have NO CLUE about what Bayless can do one year from now. We are likely to face the same conundrum, and a more disgruntled Bayless…
Lastly, I believe if Bayless just improves his jump shot without even improving passing/playmaking skills, he would become a vastly more effective player (not necessarily a PG yet) and the whole thing could be a lot different. Come on Bayless! This is something you can practice alone, show us some progress!
PRACTICE? We talking about pratice?
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Jul 25, 2009 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
if Bayless beats out Blake for the backup role in camp
I will uh…. somebody think up something really crazy for me to do
Everything comes gradually and at its appointed hour--Ovid
Leave Bedge for a year?
No, already been done. Let’s see.
Change your signature to “I can’t wait until jscot rules the world”? That has merits.
Wait, let’s do this. You could do something almost no one ever does on the Internet. Something so radical it will shake up everyone. You could say, “I was wrong.” On the Internet.
Think about that.
No, it’s probably going too far. Better think of something else.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
It is likely
that Bayless will play almost the entire fourth quarter of at least 10 games this year.
It is likely that our other PGs will have injuries, illness, or a family crisis.
If he shows lockdown D in practice without fouling, he could get isolated opportunities when we just have to have a stop.
If he really is ready, Nate will know. We might not know, but Nate will.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Its not likely Miller will be injured
Guy has played in like 530 games in a row.
The odds are very low
that both Miller and Blake will play in every game this year.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
The odds are low that both play in every game. Same could be said for any two players on this team.
Miller’s durability is just pretty darn stunning. The guy has played in every game in the last six years. I hope the same is true for the next two to three.
Injuries do happen. But I will take the under that Bayless plays almost the entire 4th quarter in at least 10 games this year. And if he does, my guess is that is because the game was over by the end of the 3rd quarter.
I expect
we will have at least 10 games that are going to be over by the end of the 3rd quarter. That was the exact point of my statement.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
well then...
I hope you are right….and its like 20 games.
by oregontrail on Jul 26, 2009 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Twice in one day I agree with you
I owe you a beer
Agreeing with the future ruler of the world
is always a good idea.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
I agree with your last paragraph
Bayless needs to show that he can be an efficient scorer, and he needs to shoot well enough to set up his ability to drive and to keep his man honest if he is playing next to Roy. Given his ability to draw fouls, he doesn’t have to be outstanding from the outside to be very efficient; he just needs to be decent. He also needs to be able to defend the point.
If Bayless can show that much by the end of pre-season, Nate can find ways to get him on the floor even if he is not the primary distributor.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I totally agree with this statement
Bringing in another young PG would have been a vote of “no confidence” in Bayless.
I think KP gives him at least until the trade deadline. If Bayless can unseat Blake, then it’s his job. Bayless already said he was going for the starting position this year…so he’s going to go like hell at the Miller and Blake.
If anything, bringing in a vet like Miller on a short-term contract shows that KP is not ready to give up on Bayless just yet. I know the rumors are out there, but I don’t think Portland gives up Bayless for a backup power forward.
I disagree. Bringing in another young PG would make the statement that Bayless would have to earn minutes rather than being gifted minutes because he was a lottery pick.
Be a starting quality PG and you know what… on this team you will start.
Be a backup quality PG and you will get solid minutes this year and at the end of the year, Blake will move on and you’ll be the backup PG and heir apparent.
Just be the best defensive PG this team has to throw at the other team and you’ll have a key role on this team.
On the other hand, continue to foul when the player your guarding isn’t even in scoring position, continue to commit too many turnovers, fail to run the offense efficiently and you’ll make it hard for the Blazers to let Blake walk away at the end of his contract.
It is a process
Demanding error free play from a guy learning the position is bound to end in failure. If you want the pot of goodness at the end of the development rainbow, you have to be willing to live with some mistakes along the way.
I do agree that Bayless will cement his position on this team if he becomes Nate’s best defensive option at the point.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Miller starts. Bayless plays . . . a little. Blake sits.
1. People put way too much stock in summer league. Remember Batum last year?
2. I think Blazer management hoped Bayless would show that he is ready to challenge Blake for the starting job. Why? Blake is not good enough to be a starting PG on a playoff team. When Bayless’ play created more questions than answers, Miller was the best available alternative . . . once his price came down.
3. I won’t be surprised if by mid-season Blake is sitting and Bayless is playing the available back-up PG minutes. Why? Blake won’t be resigned after this year because his contributions are duplicated by better or at least more valuable players. Fernandez and Webster are superior threats from beyond the 3 pt line and Blake’s assist-to-turnover ratio is matched by Miller who creates more offense for himself and others. Bayless can do something no one else on this roster can do . . . guard quick point guards. He will be given every chance to develop behind Miller especially since there will only be 10-12 back-up minutes available a game. Miller has consistently played 36+ minutes a game his entire career and Roy will still play a few minutes at point with Fernandez at SG. The idea that Blake and Miller will play roughly equal minutes is ludicrous. Blake is an insurance policy. He will be traded at the trade deadlince if Bayless performs, or allowed to leave next summer in favor of other options.
4. The offense will change to accomodate Miller’s strengths. These changes will benefit Bayless more than Blake. The only role remaining for Blake (shooting 3s) will be given to Fernandez and the SG position. Roy shot 3s pretty well last year too.
5. My prediction: Two years from now, we will finally have a very good perimeter defense because the starting lineup will be Bayless, Roy, Batum, Aldridge, Oden. If Bayless and Batum become good 3 point shooters, we will also contend for championships with that lineup. Until then, we will win a lot of games with Miller starting at PG.
by chemistrymajor on Jul 25, 2009 12:49 PM PDT reply actions
really?
im amazed that you think that bayless is going to get playing time over blake. who says miller is going to start anyway? i think it would be stupid to give up the chemistry that blake has with the starters already. miller would make the second unit better but im not sure how he would do with the starters.. he could just cause more problems than solutions… i think he would fit well with the second unit, because there isnt really anybody on the second unit who can get to the rim. the blazers dont always tend to use the best players as starters.. for instance outlaw vs. batum. i cant see anyone being able to argue that batum is better than outlaw…yet. but batum starts, because outlaw fits better with second unit. i think the same could go with miller. even though blake isnt the greatest point guard in the league(and very far from it) but he blends well with what they need him to be. he can distribute the ball and spread the floor with his 3. the starting line up doesnt need much more than that. it would be nice if he could do more but they dont need him to.
miller definitely improves the starting lineup
The question is whether Blake improves the bench, and I think it’s very debatable whether he or Bayless is a better fit coming off the bench. Bayless can create shots and get to the rim. With Blake, Rudy & Outlaw there would be a lot of standing around with no one going inside — especially since Joel will likely come off the bench and isn’t much of a post threat.
So when it comes to figure out who’s starting, I agree that you don’t just start the best 5 — you have to look at fit between the starters. But you also don’t bring Miller off the bench just because Blake can’t play with the second unit. Figure out the best starting unit first (NOTE: not necessarily the best 5 players) and then figure out the bench from there. So it really comes down to this: would you rather have Blake or Bayless off the bench? Because neither of them can do for the starting unit what Miller can.
Agreed.
Why does most everyone seem to be assuming that Miller will start over Blake?
Blake does a lot of things well. He is excellent at setting up the offense. I suspect he can defend better than Miller too. And he can shoot 3’s.
I look for Blake to answer the opening bell to kick off the season.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
I can very definitely envision a running second unit headed by Miller.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I agree with you that the likely goal is a Blake phase-out.....
……whether or not it will happen by the trade deadline, or the end of next season, or even later remains to be seen.
I seriously doubt whether or not Blake is a good fit as a back-up to Miller. His skill set is so entirely different that it may be difficult for the team to switch back and forth between the two. It is possible that Nate can make it work, and that Blake’s outside shooting can be a compliment to what Miller brings. OTOH, it will require very different sets and very different plays to take full advantage of such different skill-sets.
From an asset maximization standpoint, I think they hope Bayless comes along quickly enough that they can trade Blake at the deadline. If you combined Blake and Outlaw with the remaining cap after the Euro holds come off in the fall, you have the potential to bring in a $10 million contract. That may be enough to bring in another quality big man.
Hopefully, Bayless can develop over the next two to three years into Miller with better defense and a better outside shot.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions
But the Outlaw "hate" is totally acceptable?
I really hope Bayless turns out to be a great PG. Definite potential but I just haven’t seen anything yet that convinces me that he will be. Great talent and work ethic. But there is certainly a question of fit and he is still very young. I think it’s reasonable to question how he will ultimately work out. I think Bayless was probably viewed as largely untouchable in the last year (in terms of being traded). With the addition of Miller, it’s hard to argue that he’s as untouchable as he once was. From the tone of posts, I would tend to think that more people than not still have a lot of hope that he will work out. I hope he does work out, but some level of questioning his longer term role is reasonable.
Outlaw on the other hand is another story. Seems nearly unanimous here that he will be traded. More so that he should be traded. In terms of the "love" that a player receives on BE, I would Bayless at about 60-70 out of 100. Outlaw scores about a 15. Batum, probably gets a 98. This dynamic between Batum and Outlaw really amazes me. I get that Batum is a great prospect and has a lot of potential. But in terms of production, there is little argument that Outlaw’s production wasn’t bigger last year. Whether its points, PER or who was on the court at the end of the games, Outlaw wins. The value of Batum was the role he played. He was our defensive guy when we had the players on the court who could take care of things on the offensive end. But what people always overlook is the value of Outlaw last year. He was the guy that could provide energy and production off the bench. He could play some backup PF minutes that we really couldn’t get from anyone else (sorry Channing).
I would not be surprised to see Outlaw traded this year given the dynamics of his contract (expiring), that we drafted two PFs, the return of Webster, the potential growth of Batum AND the fact that he is a pretty solid player. Just because he might be traded does not mean that he doesn’t deserve some respect though. If anything bothers me on this site, it’s that Outlaw gets little in the way of respect. If all the Bayless faithful are going to cry that people are questioning his role on this team long-term I think they need to realize that there is good reason for that. He has a lot to prove. You have to be willing to accept that, especially if you are going to overlook that Outlaw gets repeatedly thrown under the bus here.
My last point, is that I am actually excited about the fact that we may be willing to trade a little potential (i.e. Bayless) to get something that could produce right away. Everyone on BE seems to cringe if anyone ever throws Batum, Bayless or Rudy into a trade idea. But we have to be willing to give up something to get something. We have the early part of the season to figure out the rotation at SF. The odd man out, packaged with some potential could bring back a valuable piece that could make a real difference for the Blazers next year. That’s pretty exciting to me.
by oregontrail on Jul 25, 2009 1:23 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Outlaw on twitter
http://twitter.com/Travis25Outlaw
“I love all the doubt and negativity…feeding it all to the motivational flames. Keep it coming!”
Hopefully its insipiring for him in the offseason. Doesn’t mean the guy gets a fair shake.
hey whatever it takes
i would love to see Outlaw finally develop into the player we hoped hed be, but times a wastin
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jul 25, 2009 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with you that Outlaw deserves more respect and more credit for improvement
Outlaw has added the 3pt shot and improved his shot selection a fair amount. He still has a ways to go in terms of efficiency, but he does deserve credit for making progress. Outlaw has also improved somewhat as a man to man defender. He seems to be learning how to use his athleticism to stay in front of guys.
However, the big knocks on Trout remain. He doesn’t rebound nearly as well as his athleticism would suggest that he could. He is absolutely atrocious at blocking out. He still lacks focus on defense and still often looks lost in help defense situations.
Trout is a good player, a walking mismatch who can get his own shot. There will always be a role for guys like that in the NBA. Unfortunately, his limitations cause many fans to overlook, or undervalue, what he offers.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very well put.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Bayless does not need to be talked into remaining patient
His job is to play basketball, if he wants more playing time, he has to earn it. The Sergio folks always said he needed playing time to get better and I said the same thing to them. You play to win the game, not develop point guards. Bayless need to do his job, and get better at his job, if he want to see time on the court.
by tominhawaii on Jul 25, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Yeah I agree, he's probably going to be a player somewhere
Still I get the thinking that he wasn’t good enough yet to be the #2 PG next season
Blazer Fan
I don't see anyone here that hates Bayless.
hate = intense or passionate dislike for (someone)
In fact, I suspect most people here have a high regard for his determination, work ethic, and ability to professionally handle not playing much last year. I also really liked his statements prior to summer camp when he took responsibility for his lack of performance last year and didn’t blame Nate for not letting play more. I became even more of a fan of him after hearing that. I am however confused by who is directing his goals. They sounded like KP’s goals for him, which appear to be much different than Nate’s. But that’s a subject for another day.
I largely disregard summer league for all players. It is simply not NBA competition. My impressions of Bayless are based on what he did last year on the court until he does something different this year on the court.
Miller and Blake are going to get virtually all of the competitive (non-garbage time) minutes at PG this year. Roy will probably get about 6 minutes at PG to make time for Rudy, leaving maybe 42 minutes for Miller and Blake. No matter how you split that, there are virtually no competitive minutes at PG for Bayless this year unless there are injuries. This is virtually the same situation as last year for Bayless, who couldn’t take minutes from Sergio, so he certainly won’t take them from Blake this year.
So how is Bayless going to improve as a PG without getting competitive minutes? I simply don’t think that is possible. Ignore his shooting woes and foul problems last year. Each time Nate speaks of Bayless he talks about his poor judgement in decision making when he handles the ball. That is something that can not be learned while sitting and watching, or playing against your own players in practices (which are relatively few during the season). Bayless needs the opportunity to play, and barring injury, there is even less chance of that happening this year than last year when he only had to compete against Sergio.
So if Bayless sits all year, and therefore can’t improve as a PG, what’s the point of keeping him? His trade value will only go down further if he doesn’t play. We can still get something for him now based on his “potential”. But “potential” is devalued the longer a player sits after being drafted.
Even if Bayless sits all year without become a disruption to the team chemistry, what happens at the end of the year? Do we suddenly decide that Bayless has learned enough from two years of sitting that we are ready to rely on him to back up Miller the next year? That doesn’t make any sense to me. I suspect that Nate/KP will make the same decision they just did this year, and either re-sign Blake or look for another veteran PG to replace Blake. How does Bayless become a player we are ready to rely on as a PG without playing?
So as much as I admire Bayless’ intensity, determination, work ethic, and good character, I don’t see how he gets an opportunity to succeed here unless misfortune strikes our other PGs. I don’t think KP drafted him as a lottery pick with the expectation that he would sit on the bench for 2 years, or perhaps 3 years, before he gets at least some role in the regular rotation. I’m certain that wasn’t Bayless’ expectation.
All that said, if the Blazers keep Bayless this year as an unproven (and therefore risky) insurance policy, that’s fine unless he becomes destructive to the team chemistry. But if we can use him in a trade opportunity to substantially improve ourselves then I hope we take it.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 25, 2009 2:27 PM PDT reply actions
I disagree with your reading of managements intentions and likely strategy.
If you look solely at who is the best PGs on the team, your analysis makes sense. Miller is 1, Blake is 2, and Roy takes a few minutes. Given that analysis, your central argument that Bayless is going to get no time, makes sense.
However, look at contracts and towards the future and the situation looks different. Miller has 2-3 years as the teams likely starter. He may start to decline during that time frame. Blake is 29, but his contract expires at the end of this season. From the point of view of maximizing assets, the preferred scenario would be to package Blake and Outlaw, with the teams remaining cap room (about 2.5 mil after the Euro holds come off in the fall) in order to land one more quality player before the team slides permanently into luxury tax hell.
Blake is not a long term answer as a starter. If he was the team would not have brought in Miller. The only guy on the roster who has a chance to be the starter when Miller is done is Bayless. You are right that he needs time in order to develop. To me, this suggests that the team hopes he will show enough by the trading deadline that they can afford to trade Blake and give Bayless the back-up minutes.
I don’t see any other long term strategy that makes sense.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
We have many assets to get another veteran PG for the future.
You seem to be arguing that Bayless must become the starting PG of the future (2 yrs from now) because you don’t see any other long term strategy that makes sense. But there are other alternatives than counting on Bayless.
Miller should be able to handle our lead PG spot for at least 2 years. That gives Bayless a chance to develop, but it also gives us other options for a replacement PG during the next 2 yrs (perhaps longer depending on how Miller fits and ages).
If at the end of this year (or even the following year) we don’t think Bayless is going to be “the guy” we have these assets to acquire another veteran PG:
1) Bayless is then expendable for a trade.
2) We have Batum, Rudy, Webster and Outlaw competing for about 60 minutes of playing time (48 minutes at SF plus 12 minutes while Roy rests). We can remove Outlaw from the list since he will either be our backup PF (I hope not) or get traded for a backup PF (after the season starts we will have at least $1.7M in cap space after signing the two rooks to help get that done). We only need two of Batum, Rudy, and Webster to fill those 60 minutes. One of them is expendable for a trade and by the end of the season we will probably have a good idea who we want to keep long term and who we would want to trade. (We also have Claver and Cunningham as possibly future SF’s as well.)
3) If we don’t have faith in Bayless we won’t let Blake walk at the end of the season. We will sign him to another reasonable contact at about $4M a year again. Thus he becomes either our backup PG or another trade asset for a PG.
4) Miller is a tradable asset if we are trading for a lead PG and we can then continue to use Blake as a backup.
5) We have the mid-level exception (about $6M) to acquire a free agent.
So we can package some combination or partial combination of Bayless + (Miller or Blake) + (Webster or Batum or Rudy) for veteran lead PG (or a younger upcoming backup PG to Miller) in a trade, or we have the mid-level exception for a free agent PG. That’s a world of options to acquire another PG without touching our core players if we decide that Bayless isn’t going to be the guy.
Again, I want to emphasize I’m not anti-Bayless. See my post above. I also don’t believe that Bayless has to be a traditional PG to do well for us. I said that when we drafted him. But he simply isn’t ready to be the point guard we need, and I don’t think he will get the time here to become that PG because this team can contend for a WCF spot if Greg is improved this year. He’s a great kid, but he just got picked by the wrong team that is developing faster than he could. If we keep him, I’m ok with that (if he doesn’t become disruptive) and I will hope for some magical improvement while he sits and watches Miller and Blake. But if there is a really good trade opportunity, then I’d take it because I think the probability of him succeeding with this team is relatively low.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 26, 2009 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Apparently your personal attack is now permitted by the mods.
I believe people can make well-reasoned arguments that aren’t based on hate. I’ll continue to believe that despite my chronic and uncorrectable tone deafness.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 26, 2009 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
^^ This comment was not directed at upper left corner
it was directed at Timbo below that accused me of having chronic and uncorrectable tone deafness.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 26, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe the hate isn't about Bayless.
You can’t succeed in this league without a chance, see Batum. If Nate doesn’t give Bayless adequate minutes he won’t succeed. Nate likes guys he can trust and he can’t trust Bayless right now. Bayless’ best chance might be an injury to Miller or Blake. The hate is all about how nobobdy knows what Bayless can do because we haven’t seen him really get a shot, other than summer league. I think Bayless has what it takes to be a stud in this league and I hope he gets an opportunity.
Are you saying that some fans hate that Bayless hasn't got minutes?
I’m sure that’s true. But it is far different than the title of this post, which says that some fans hate Bayless. I don’t think that is true at all.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 25, 2009 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Compare and contrast: reaction to Bayless (who actually won a game or two for Portland last year) with the reaction to third string PG Tarean Green (who didn't)...
There is NO WAY you can make the argument which BF1970 extends, that there is no such thing as “Bayless hate.” To even pretend this might be the case is to exhibit chronic and uncorrectable tone deafness…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Apparently your personal attack is now permitted by the mods.
I believe people can make well-reasoned arguments that aren’t based on hate. I’ll continue to believe that despite my chronic and uncorrectable tone deafness.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 26, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know whether Timbo's post qualifies as a personal attack
But honestly, there’s enough “a vs b” type thing going on in the comments that it’s pretty borderline in a few other posts too (In a couple cases, it’s been just short of seeing terms like “you people”).
But if you are bothered, flag the post. Otherwise, the mods may not see it, because they don’t look at every comment. They may not do anything about your flag, but they’ll take a look.
Personally, I’m not flagging anything in this thread. Like I said, this whole thread is basically one group arguing against another, and it’s lots of personal comments. “If you don’t agree with me, you’re clearly wrong!” (On a related note… Norsk, thanks for being a voice of reason.)
I agree
this whole topic could have been handled better. It’s hard to know what to delete and what to leave. At this point I’m figuring that most people who don’t want the “A vs. B” thing are staying out of the thread, or stayed out from the start.
—Dave
I just wanna see the justification for all the insane bayless love for the past two summers over the #11 pick...
the general tone here is acting like it’s exploded over the past few days. I don’t think that’s the case, I just think the few that had the opinions they’ve had actually are being heard and understood instead of instantly scoofed at over lack of sample size or what have you.
Bayless deserves his share of critics.
Who lies to the press and doesn’t?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
N besides?
isn’t it usually normal to expect growth from one year to the next? especially since we’ve all already seen that he’s able to dominate lower comp. the year before.
if anyone deserves an underwhelming this year it’s gonna be the jay bay.
I apoligize for not hammering away at the negative tone that I have before and since his signing, but honestly… I’ve seen what happens to the unpopular opinion that is thrust upon the mob.
it never ends well.
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
I think you and the others, who have been openly contemptuous of Bayless, seem to feel "emboldened" by summer league
I know that a lot of folks have disliked Bayless from the start. Some are folks who liked Sergio, some are folks who believe that a “pure point” is necessary to the team’s success, some are folks who just didn’t like Bayless for his tone of face. There have been many doubters for quite some time. I argued with them all last season.
Those folks were already predisposed to find fault with anything Bayless did in SL. When JB’s assist totals were relatively modest and his TOs unacceptably high, you and others were only too ready to pipe up with choruses of “he will never be a PG.” Dwight Jaynes, Gavin Dawson, and Kenny Vance, who have all been at best skeptical, have echoed these comments on 95.5. Many casual fans have been swayed by this chorus of criticism and joined in.
You cite “insane Bayless love.” Was it insanity that lead to him being a McD’s All American? Was it insanity that lead Lute Olsen to recruit him to PG University? Was it insanity that lead evaluators to make him a near consensus lottery pick? Was it insanity that lead to him winning SL MVP? Was it insanity that lead to his selection to the Team USA select team?
Seriously, there are a lot of professional basketball people who share the opinion that Bayless is an outstanding prospect. You have every right to disagree, but acting like your POV is the only defensible POV is pretty darn annoying.
I posted a similar comment to you in another thread, and last I checked, you had not responded. Again, my rant is not personal. Your comments over the past couple of weeks are simply symptomatic of a point of view that I find hard to take.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Emboldened sure, I think I said something to that effect,.... it's alot easier to step up to the plate and at least get on base with a bat in my hand opposed to no bat.... there is a
…..fairly unfounded insistance that he is able to become the pure point guard of the future or what have you and that to me is annoying to have cramed down your throat every time you ask about the rational for the “insane bayless love” that this site has had when he continues to disapoint, and not improve in the few areas that he needs to.
He’s good at doing what he does, but he’s still just a undersized shooting guard with very little point guard attibutes.
yeah, I dug sergio, I didn’t think jack was all that bad, and I seen red flags as soon as bayless didn’t go in the top 8 of his draft like he was supose too. I have my reasons to be skeptical but kept quiet in hopes that I’d be very wrong, …shoot I still could be very wrong, but I just don’t understand how so many can not fault him for not improving over the past year, and still praise him and come down so hard on the few that had these opinions all along……… Becuase I just don’t see much growth.
So in my opinion it’s not all out hate, but … some coming around and back down off the initial bayless high… and reevaluating their opinions…
me… I’ve never been to high on the kid, but…. at the same time, I’m not totally opposed to keeping him. I just don’t get the ……. scoffs and instant “you don’t know what your talking about” anytime anyone want’s to critize Jerryd’s lack of improvement in the areas we all hoped he would, and in my opinion the only areas he HAD to improve in. (ballhandling and court awarness)
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
kinda like ....
when a brand new model of car comes out. and say I buy one.
sure I’ll love it the day it comes out the shop.
maybe even the month after it still looks pretty in my driveway.
sooner or later though I’ll find things wrong with it. or I’ll just abuse it and it’ll break down… whatever.
the point is. I liked it when I first got it, the wife probably didn’t, and over time,…. she’ll have more ammo and maybe be able to win me over into scoring a brand new car that maybe we both like.
savvy?
The Faith don't panic, the faith freaks out, burns out farms, and torchs small villages in the name of The Faith.
"New Man Law: If you don't show up for the draft you don't get to come later if you're picked. If you believe in yourself, show up and sit there. If nobody else believes in you, take it and cry like a man...in front of the cameras."
-Dave
Actually, the Rex haters are basically guys that get a primo, well maintained 1996 Caddy to sit next to the 2003 Camry in the driveway and immediately take a crowbar to the pickup.
You’re gonna need that pickup.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
I think there has been a bit of a backlash against Bayless on BE which is fine, but it's not as strong as what Gavin & Co. are doing
Their knee-jerk reactions are getting a bit ridiculous even though understandably it’s their job to evoke reactions from listeners. It’s like they are jumping on every player mentioned in a rumor as the bringer of glory to Portland, especially if it’s a name-brand player to replace Blake and Bayless. Just last week they gushed about Nate Robinson, Pooh Jeter, Ramon Sessions, Kirk Hinrich. Andre Miller wasn’t really at the top of their list, although yesterday they again claimed they wanted him all along and never said he was a bad shooter.
One day just after summer league was especially funny, with Gavin “The People’s Champ” Dawson, Dwight Jaynes, Chad In Portland, and another guest all hating on Bayless that he would at best be an instant offense scorer off the bench for limited minutes. Kind of like a bad Ben Gordon. If he is lucky. That show convinced me more than anything that KP is right about Bayless and that he will develop into just what the Blazers need. And even if not, it’s a bit funny to believe that now would be the peak in Jerryd’s trade value coming off probably the worst performance year of his life.
Gavin is an idiot, which is apparently a prerequisite for his particular career field.
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Yes, I have had to restrain myself from taking a hammer to my radio. 95.5 has been really ugly.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
What I found most annoying....
….was the certainty with which he pronounced that “Bayless is done.” According to Jaynes it was all about SL, but when you go hear Prunty talk about Bayless on “Courtside”, he said he was surprised that people have read so much into Bayless’ stats. Given the overall context of the crappy, unbalanced team, and the three days of practice, I would be highly surprised if KP and Nate were making such a big deal about 4 SL games. Whatever impression they have, it must have been formed over a longer period than 4 SL games. It makes me think Dwight is just talking out of his rear-end.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup. One of his summer league partners Bobby Jones signed this weekend with Teramo (Italy). Not a bad spot for him, they play in the first league and were third last year, but not world beaters either. Team announcement http://tinyurl.com/l6nmk9
Hubris
Hubris or not, Bayless will never be a PG. He’s simply not wired to be one. Just because he’s the shortest guy on the floor doesn’t mean he needs to be a PG. Expecting him to be a PG is unrealistic and unfair to him. He’s a scorer, pure and simple. If the Blazers want him to be successful and help the team, he needs to be put in a position where he can score to his heart’s content. He’s more than willing and able to improve his jump shot. Once he does that, the sky’s the limit for him as a 3rd guard ala Vinnie Johnson or Ben Gordon. If he can guard 1s, he can play with Miller or Roy, who can handle the ball and guard 2s.
He could be what you assume, a Johnson, Gordon, Ellis maybe. But I don’t get the constant “he just is not a PG” or “he just doesn’t see the floor” arguments. How can we determine that already? What makes him so different from other scoring “non-pure” PGs like Harris, Rose, Westbrook, even Parker. Also all guys without a good outside shot, which Bayless still might get back. Since nobody knows for sure, I don’t get that certainty with which people claim he just isn’t a point guard.
by Norsktroll on Jul 25, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
I’ve been thinking along the same lines. I also wouldn’t be surprised if it took Bayless another few years to really meet his potential, a la Chauncey Billups, in which case the Miller signing is perfect. It allows the team to take the next step while still giving Bayless the time he needs to develop, all without breaking the bank in the process. Well done, KP.
I could get it
if they were saying, “He isn’t yet a point guard.” Or, “I don’t think he is ever going to be a pure point guard.”
The kid is only a kid, and he obviously is working to learn. Ok, so he has to think too much, as has been said, but that which he is working on doing and thinking about will become second nature the more he works on it.
It’s not as if he is 33.
No, the certainty is unfounded. So is the “we can’t wait for him to develop” mindset. It is precisely because we have Miller now that we can wait.
And if he develops into a legit backup PG this year, we may not re-sign Blake. If it is the next year, we may not re-sign Andre. KP left himself the flexibility to either give up on Bayless or fully utilize him. And he left himself 3 years of that flexibility.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
Wow!
This is taking some mental adjustment for me. What makes him so different from Rose (or some of those others you mentioned)!? Have you watched Rose play? Of course you have. But you must have missed that he is far more than just a scorer. And he did it in his first year in the pros, fresh from only one year in college….. same time line as Bayless’. To mention those two in the same sentence yet alone asking “what makes them so different” kind of stuns my mind. Especially when it comes from you Norsktroll.
You must have been totally parched to be drinking that much of the JBay Koolaid.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
You speak as though this is a binary system: "PG" or "not PG"......
…….Reality is a lot of shades of gray. Bayless will never be a “pure PG.” He may become an outstanding scorer who is able to use the threat of his ability to score to set his teammates up for easy opportunities. He may become a “combo guard” who can defend the one and is an excellent fit with two SGs who are excellent passers.
I would love to hear why you seem to think we need a pure PG.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Wired? Then playing PG is inborn rather than a set of learned skills?
Is it genetic? Maybe Paul Allen can spend a few million dollars funding research to isolate the Point Guard gene… That would be swell and could save a lot of time. Instead of workouts and game experience and examining a guy’s mentality and work ethic and desire, we could just swab the cheek of high school seniors with a Q-tip.
Just think of what an efficient way to scout THAT would be!!!
Just find the guys who are “wired” to play PG and concentrate on them. Awesome!!!
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
His game was affected
during summer league because of the fact that he was trying to play a certain way. Bayless said before summer league began that he was gonna try to distribute the ball better and not focus on scoring. When you are “trying” to do something on the court you are not just reacting and playing the game. The fact that he was making a conscious effort to distribute resulted in some forced passes and turnovers. This combined with the fact that the other players on the team aren’t NBA quality teammates and are not accustomed to playing with each other also magnified that effect. I played point guard in high school and when you play with bad players and try to get them the ball, you will not get a lot of assists and will turn the ball over. You see what the guy should do, and throw it to where a good teammate would run to, and they either don’t make the cut they should or don’t do what they need to to get the ball and keep it from the defender. If bayless was playing how he should have with those teammates he would have dropped 40 points a game.
A lot of people speak like if bayless is not getting minutes he will not get to play basketball. There is still practices, a lot of practices, which give him the chance to gel with his teammates and figure out their tendencies, what they’ll do and won’t do, what kind of passes they can handle and what kind they can’t handle, and that will lower his turnovers and increase his assists. Especially with his knack for driving and finishing at the rim. Other teams will have to pay attention to him when he drives opening up his teammates (who can actually hit the open shots they get). In practice he can also learn from Andre Miller and Steve Blake who are both great decision makers as point guards and have great assist to turnover ratio’s. Andre Miller is a great point guard for Jerryd to learn from because he is a rim attacker like bayless, and is able to get a lot of points at the bucket while still getting a lot of assists.
JB is still a young man and to say that if he isn’t the most polished point guard in the world at this point in his young life he never will be a point guard is ludicrous. You can learn to pass better, make decisions better, see the floor better. Anything can be learned.
Thanks for contributing a little PG wisdom to the discussion.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
He made SEVERAL "big boy" assist passes that weren't handled by his "non-big boy" teammates...
Those wound up as turnovers to be counted and shrilly lamented by the Gavin Dawson’s and the Jim Rome Wannabes of the Portland talk radio market…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
Gavin and InCiPid are disgusting. I'd rather listen to Rome and I can't stand him.
"Aneurysm".
When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie
"The Bayless Hate"
I’ve seen considerable doubt spoken about Bayless’ ability to contribute effectively to the PTB and as much opinion about whether he is better off traded …. but I could not posit that such a opinion is tantamount to “hate.”
Everything comes gradually and at its appointed hour--Ovid
It a rhetorical term used to describe comments that are critical or demeaning of a player's abilities.....
…..there has been plenty of it going on here and at 95.5 over the past couple of weeks.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
"A Silk Purse Out of A Sow's Ear"?
Regarding those comments that we drafted Jerryd as a combo guard instead of as a PG: I pretty much disagree because KP has consistently stated that he drafts for the best player available and not for position. With that logic, he wasn’t drafted for anything specific. KP drafted him, then left it to Nate to figure out how to fit him in.
Well it was quite obvious in his initial SL that he was lacking the skills needed to lead a team. He looked to only be a slashing scorer…..a two guard (I well remember SL coach Monty Williams’ frustrated comment that “he just goes out on his own”.) The regular season cemented this notion and then SL #2 did as well. (and I’m one of those who feel that PG skills like seeing the floor, ability to make quick decisions, quick and accurate passing are inborn skills. Yeah, they can be developed and polished if a players already has these abilities innately, but bottom line is you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear).
Right now, it isn’t looking to me like Nate has been able to fit Bayless in and may not be able to this upcoming season either. Thus, KP’s checking around to see what we can get for him (likely not much at this point).
I’m one of those who is also worried that if he stays, Jerryd isn’t going to much like his position on the team and that he may not be able to cover up his unhappiness.
Am I jumping off the Bayless bandwagon? Nope, I was never on it. And I much agree with what Timmay posted that this backlash by previous (fickle?) Bayless fans was bound to happen because of all the over the top, nonobjective, ‘irrational exuberance’ that came pouring out of this site (and others) regarding how great Bayless was going to be. Now we’re getting the negative. Perhaps it will settle down to what it should have been to begin with, i.e., lets wait and see.
A final thought: I find it somewhat amusing how it appears that many have just switched bandwagons, from Bayless’ to Miller’s…..the same Miller who is 33 years old and has been not a lot more than just an adequate PG through his NBA career. But don’t get me wrong here, I think it was an excellent move acquiring him. We certainly needed someone other than Bayless to be our first PG off the bench, at least for this coming year.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
For the most part this isn't about fickle Bayless fans....
It is about folks like you, who never liked Bayless and apparently feel emboldened by four summer league games to voice your opinions, loudly.
I disagree about “innate ability” and about what type of a PG this team needs to succeed. Does the fact that KP turned down Hinrich because he wouldn’t trade Bayless, give you any pause? Does the fact that so many professional basketball people see Bayless as such a talent, give you any pause?
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Huge assumption ULC:
….KP turned down Hinrich because he wouldn’t trade Bayless……
BTW, I was voicing my opinion after last years SL games, after his fairly pathetic performance in last years regular season and also after this years SL games. At least I should get a high mark for consistency.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
Yes, you should. My point is that a lot of folks were predisposed to be highly critical of Bayless....
…..either because they were Sergio fans, or because they are more general fans of “pure PGs.” A lot of the critical comments about the four SL games are coming from folks who already had their minds made up. Not to mention, I would be willing to bet my mortgage payment that a lot of the folks talking about SL probably didn’t even watch the games, but only looked at the box-score.
by upper left corner on Jul 26, 2009 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
The Sergio fans know they lost the war and now they're gonna gang up to assassinate Lincoln...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
You're right. I never watched the S.L. games.
Listened to a couple of them though and read all the reports. And I am in one of the two categories you listed, i.e. "general fans of “pure PG’s”. I don’t think I necessarily require the pure form though. I certainly think they should be able set up the offense and distribute the ball efficiently.
I used to post a lot that I wasn’t a huge Sergio fan like some. I liked the potential of his game though and I thought he was never given a fair shake by Nate. I certainly always believed that he was/would be a better PG than Bayless was/would be. Now of course, since Sergio is on to greener pastures and Jerryd is still with us, I hope I was wrong.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
How do you know that KP turned down Hinrich because he wouldn’t trade Bayless?
Because you read it on the internet?
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 26, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you are right about KP acquiring who he perceives as the best player, and seeing it as the coaches’ job to figure out how to develop those players and fit them into the game of the whole team. You seem not convinced of Bayless which is fine, yet less eager to trade him away than some fans and people in the media. That’s a position I can follow. I don’t see any need to trade Bayless right away. Just like I don’t get the argument that we need to trade Rudy since he will never see 30+ minutes as a backup. Why now, when their skills and value should only go up with more experience in the NBA? Sergio publicly demanded a change of style or alternatively change of scenery at least twice, and KP didn’t react until now. Sacramento certainly didn’t make him the best offer he ever got for Sergio. There is no reason to assume he will react faster to demands to trade Bayless instead of trying to find out where he can fit in. If he can’t take a regular spot in the rotation, at the very least he provides depth for both guard positions, which is valuable in case of injuries. He might turn out to be a tweener, but he already fills that 1 + 2 role like no other guard on the roster safe for Roy in stretches. Basically he saves the Blazers a roster spot with that ability. Rudy might have the vision of a PG, but he really doesn’t have the handles and lateral quickness. Blake is overpowered against shooting guards, even according to Roy. And the big question mark about Miller is his ability to play effectively off Roy, for which they will need to find some solution but it won’t be as a catch-and-shooter like Blake.
All good points Norsktroll.
You make a good case for keeping Jerryd around and it makes some sense that we do. If he finds himself sitting on the bench again though, he will have to work hard at reminding himself that he is still very young and needs to exercise patience.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
and by the way
By the way, I would render a guess that the vast majority of the “haters” of Bayless or Outlaw actually think very highly of them as people.
Virtually everyone loves Bayless’ strong work ethic, even those who are doubtful that he can play a major role on the Blazers.
Likewise, virtually everyone loves Travis Outlaw in terms of his congenial and down to earth personality. But not all think he can be a key factor in the Blazers future success.
I would just propose this as a ground rule for debates on these players:
1). Nobody should criticize players on a personal level. Unless a player actually has a bad attitude that impairs their performance, and that is certainly not the case with ANYONE on the Blazers roster.
But I have seen few personal attacks on these players. The vast majority of the criticisms are opinions regarding their potential to contribute to the team’s success based on their skills and how those skills fit with what the team needs.
2). Anyone who equates critiques of a players’ potential with being a “hater” should be treated as someone who is failing to conduct themselves in an honorable manner, and they should be treated commensurately with that reality.
Bayless needs lots of work
As in fundamental work. I have been a staunch critic of Bayless ever since his first few stints in the regular season last year. It doesn’t take very long to notice the fundamental flaws Bayless possesses.
He does not control his dribble. Bayless is often chasing his dribble rather than controlling his dribble. He doesn’t look like a typical PG because he doesn’t dribble like one. Cups the ball too much to change directions, dribbles too high, and he keeps his head down. Bayless lacks the fundamental skills to be considered primary ball handler or playmaker. I don’t consider him to be a good ball handler let alone a good decision maker.
In addition, his jump shot release is too slow. He shot puts the ball and can’t create the space necessary to shoot over the defense. Bayless will have problems finishing in the paint due to his size and length. He must develop a tear drop or floater to be a credible scorer.
This is a big list of skills Bayless needs to develop to be successful in the NBA.
"I'm at the thingamajig talking the yakety-yak" - Kenny Smith
Bayless
As to the actual question at hand:
I personally am skeptical that Bayless will be able to fill the role of point guard of the future for the Blazers.
I don’t think he needs an outside shot, Andre Miller doesn’t have one and he has been a successful point guard. And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Bayless develops a good outside shot over the next couple of years.
And while his defense has been considered by some to be substandard, I do believe he can develop into a decent defender as well.
But what I am skeptical about is whether Bayless can develop his skills as a distributor to a high enough level to make him a viable starting PG.
I think Bayless has the talent to be a good NBA player. I am skeptical that he has the particular skills to be a good starting PG for the Blazers.
For those who say, give it time, I have no problem with that, as long as they can give Bayless enough minutes to be able to have a lot better idea of where he fits in by the end of this coming season.
timbo
Yes, right wingers are guilty of the same sin. I am mainly used to it from left wingers because as an immigration enforcement advocate, I have seen left wingers spew hate toward those on my side for decades.
I would say that this sort of hate-filled rhetoric used to come mainly from the left, but now there are people on the right that engage in it as well, certainly Coulter and Savage are guilty of engaging in that. Limbaugh has an abrasive style but I don’t think he crosses the line into “hate”.
Oh, never mind.
"Aneurysm".
When Outlaw wins a game on a last-second shot, it’s called an "annthefaneurysm". QualityPie
by annthefan on Jul 26, 2009 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Summarizing the points in this thread -
Despite Bayless’ performance last year and that he is again our 3rd string PG, if you don’t think Bayless will be the Blazer’s PG of the future, you
1) Are filled with hate for Bayless, and
2) Just mad that Sergio was traded, and/or
3) Believe the Blazers must have a “pure” PG, and/or
4) Form your opinions based on summer league
No other reasoning or logic is permitted on BE.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 26, 2009 5:17 PM PDT reply actions
Eh
While I can empathize with the frustration I’m not sure what you’ve said is much different than what those you’re castigating have said when you equate something going on in one thread to the whole site’s philosophy of discussion.
In any case it’s becoming apparent that the topic in this thread has run its course. People are just getting frustrated at each other now. So comments are closed for this one. Maybe we can re-visit the Bayless topic at a later time with fewer accusations on everyone’s part.
—Dave
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