Life and Stuff: Oden and Andrews
by Dave on Jul 24, 2009 12:31 AM PDT
108 comments
A few musings based on recent news events in the world of sports as they relate to life's bigger picture...
It was revealed yesterday that among his other training steps Greg Oden saw a sports psychologist. I'd like to bring a little personal perspective to that news.
At 40 years old now I'd venture to say I'm one of the more stable, thoughtful, balanced, and nearly-unshakeable people you'll find. But there were two periods in my life when I needed a hand. After my second year of college and again briefly in grad school I saw counselors. The first time was for issues deeper than Greg probably covered. I was suffering from depression, the cumulative effect of (to that point) a lifetime of unresolved hurts brought to bear in a bubble suddenly burst. I was trapped in a box I couldn't get out of myself. The second time I saw a counselor was for a tune-up after a sad event that brought back memories of the first journey. It was not nearly as severe, but I knew enough to know I needed someone to talk to in order to make sure it stayed that way.
As I said, these are likely far more pressing issues than Greg addressed during whatever visits took place in his adjustment period. I'm not trying to imply that our experiences were common. However there is some commonality in the reasoning and benefit of seeing such a professional.
Sometimes in life you just get stuck. Friends can't help, bosses can't help, family might be far away or non-existent or just unable to help as well. The issues might be minor but when you just can't see how to resolve them or cope with them they weigh on you. Eventually that weight becomes a burden, slowing you down. A psychiatrist, psychologist, or counselor can be a huge asset in that kind of situation.
Usually there's nothing mystical that happens during the visits. There's no magic wand to wave. There are seldom easy answers. Even if such answers exist a good professional won't usually give them to you. Walking your own journey and gaining the confidence that comes with it is part of the process. (Insert the give a man a fish/teach a man to fish truism here.) A competent professional usually asks a few questions, listens for a long time to the answers, and then helps reflect back what they hear so you can hear it too. For that space of time they have no other focus but you, no other goal but your well-being, and no other agenda but to help you be whatever person you want to be. Nobody else in your existence--not even a spouse, parent, or best friend--can function in that same capacity. That's exactly why those professionals are helpful, refreshing, and often irreplaceable.
At this point in my life and career I am now one of the guys that people come to see when they're struggling. Having been through it a little I understand how hard it is to take that step and what stigmas are attached to it. I also understand deeply how foolish and wrong those stigmas are. I can honestly tell you that I have not had one person come before me asking for help that hasn't been a smart, perceptive, amazing human being. I don't work with people who have truly crippling mental illnesses but I do work with people who have undergone truly crippling circumstances. And I can tell you that I often worry more about people--even normal-seeming people--who don't have the courage and awareness to take that step and get a hand when they need it than I ever have about anybody who has walked into my office. Asking for a boost or some clarification when you need them is a sign of competence, health, and maturity. Failing to do so is often the reverse.
A couple of specific thoughts come to mind about Greg's situation. First, read again those sentences about the benefits of talking to a professional: listens more than talks, takes time to reflect with you, no other agenda but your well-being and helping you be whatever person you want to be. Now imagine the world of professional sports. You should be able to feel palpably the absence of those qualities. Other than perhaps the team chaplain (with whom you probably don't interact that much) you can't find a single person who comes close to evidencing them.
Coaches may be father figures, but they're telling you what to do, not asking. Every team official, no matter how friendly and accommodating, has an agenda for you. Their livelihoods depend on fulfilling that agenda. Even if you grow close they can't completely shake it. Ticket sellers depend on you to sell tickets. Concession people depend on you to move hot dogs. Your teammates? You may be close but it's a conditional closeness. A certain percentage of them would love to take your job. The rest of them might love you but if you're not playing well and helping the team they'll see the need to dump you as well. And let's not even talk about the fans on the street, the women who are attracted to you, the agents and investment specialists and realtors and salesmen. There's just no mercy.
Can you imagine that maybe, just maybe, a guy could get rattled by this, especially when he's twenty years old and his once-blossoming career has gotten derailed before it starts? Don't you think that in the midst of it having one agenda-free pair of ears there just for you might be a valuable, if not necessary, thing? Whether you're maintaining or recovering your confidence, I'm hard-pressed to see how you'd do it without the help of at least one other person in the world. That's what the psychologist is: that one other person.
Even if that's reading too much into the situation (and it may be) I know this second point isn't. Greg went to a sports psychologist, meaning the process had a sports connection. This is a mental game as much as a physical one. If you're not mentally sharp, assured, and convinced of your place and your purpose in this league it will eat you up without pity. Because of his place, talent, and size Greg Oden is lined up for endless months of physical brutality, taunting, and pressure. He must be as mentally and emotionally fit to handle it as he is physically fit. In that sense I don't view his visit to a sports psychologist any differently than I view him seeing Bobby Medina for a weightlifting plan or one of the assistant coaches for training on his footwork. That's not a sign of weakness, that's his job. If there's some way he could be better prepared he better take advantage of it. If you need bigger biceps, talk to a trainer. If you need a confidence adjustment, talk to the psychologist. We praise the first. Why would we startle at the second?
The other issue I've been musing on is one I've avoided for a week or more. I have been hesitant to mention the Erin Andrews situation because I know full well that as soon as I utter the words half of the folks reading me will have their curiosity piqued and dig further into it. I hate being a party to that, as it's the opposite of what we should be doing. But now the story has hit Yahoo and The View and there's nobody even remotely interested in sports who doesn't know that somebody video-taped Erin in her hotel room and then published the images on the internet. (I understand they've been taken down, so don't bother looking. And if they still exist somewhere please don't talk about it here or even reference it. Your comment will be deleted.)
I'm not going to go deeply into how reprehensible of a deed/crime this was. That should be obvious to most, I hope. If not, just consider the layers of grossness, degradation, and what almost amounts to hate here. It's one thing to look yourself. I suppose we all have an inner fourteen-year-old that fantasizes about such things. I'm not saying it's right at all--in fact taking fantasy into reality in this case is way over the line of wrongness--but it's a certain level of wrong. That level goes higher when you video tape. But the level of disrespect, dishonor, and cruelty evidenced in taking that tape public is beyond comprehension to me. To so reduce another human being--the meaning of their body, life, and personhood...those of a person innocent in the process at that--for your own advancement is simply not fathomable. This goes beyond the realm of the musings that most humans have ("Erin Andrews is good looking! I wonder what it would be like to see...") into the realm of horror.
The point here is not to cast aspersions on a single person, however deserved those are. Rather the bigger lesson here to me is that we all have to be cautious in this environment. Make whatever arguments you want about how television trades on physical attraction or how Erin Andrews profits from that trade. That's undoubtedly true. But that does not excuse or justify this. A serious line was crossed here. That line was crossed because somebody had a twisted view of humanity and sexuality and power and male-female relations. But that line was also crossed because we all blur it.
The take-home point here is that the flirting we do with themes of sexuality in sports is not a neutral prospect. Every time some TV executive plays on the theme to sell commercial time he or she contributes. Every time you or I make stupid comments about other human beings or their sexuality or about them deserving what they get because they have the temerity to step in front of us we contribute. I'm not just talking some line of theoretical, radical feminism here. Whoever made that video tape did so because they were warped. But the point that keeps running through my head is this: they put it online because they thought we'd be interested. And they thought we'd be interested because we create and contribute to a culture that expresses exactly that. If they thought we'd all turn away and identify it for what it is they'd never have done it in the first place.
I don't expect the culture to reverse itself. I doubt I'm even telling you anything you don't already know. But I do want to point out that the "frat boy" stereotype of sports is not harmless. I also want to point out that there are plenty of us deeply involved in sports and the coverage thereof who would just as soon do without it. We are all affected by, and maybe drawn to, sexuality in sports. But not all of us are willing to put aside our basic sense of fairness and humanity to become a slave to it. Some of us need to stand up and say that out of respect, not just for Erin Andrews but for people in general, we don't want to see those stolen images and moments. Some of us need to say that even though we might enjoy watching people we consider attractive as sportscasters, other things are far more important and bring far more pleasure in that context. Some of us need to say that even if we occasionally have thoughts that exceed innocent pleasure, those are better kept to ourselves and not used as things to bond by...that the sport itself is enough to bring us together without having to reduce others in order to cement our communal experience.
Some things in life can only be given, never taken. If people are going to dance at games, let them dance. Enjoy it if you like, but let it stop there. Don't take more than has been given. If your local sideline reporter looks gorgeous to you, appreciate it. But let it stop there. Don't take more than has been given. It's not fair to make people pay the price--either the person in question or the people within your sphere of influence--for you trying to take something that was never intended to be given and will never be given in that venue.
What was taken from Erin Andrews was not really Erin Andrews. I'm sure it looks like Erin Andrews. I'm sure to her it even feels like Erin Andrews. I'm not trying to minimize the violation she's probably experiencing today by saying this. But at the end of the day you can't really see Erin Andrews or any person by taking that route. You cannot see those moments as they were meant to be shared. They cannot be as they were meant to be if they were stolen. When you attempt to reduce someone to an object, a shell, then a shell is all you get. The real, vital, living human being slides beyond your vision, as does the meaningful experience. What you're left with doesn't make you feel any better, nor do the results help any of us. We sell our souls for emptiness this way.
And it's not pretty.
--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)
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Thanks Dave
Some much needed perspective.
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
by jamon51 on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you..
Dave, I really appreciate this article, especially your opinions on the Erin Andrews situation. It’s always great to see people take a stand against this kind of thing, and this time is no different. Thanks you very much.
by Bnaz777 on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is also true
We must also stand up to Date Rape.
bbk
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am very against puppy kicking, btw.
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate the take he provides but in all honesty, I’d be more impressed if someone was able to make an argument FOR this type of behavior. I mean come on. We’re talking about a video camera and a hole in a hotel wall. Does it honestly get creepier than that?
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Bnaz777 is impressed that Dave thinks it's creepy.
Rather that Dave was willing to make a statement to that fact. Too many people remain silent, not saying anything. Just thinking something is terrible does very little for anyone. Standing up and letting everyone else know that it’s terrible is something that is far more rare.
At least that’s how I’m reading this.
μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.
by T Darkstar on Jul 24, 2009 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
I guess I’m not as impressed because anyone I’ve heard talk about it in the past week has said just this. I agree speaking out is important, but at this point I would say that saying whoever taped Erin Andrews was wrong holds about as much stock with me as a Michael Jackson tribute. Consider yet another dead horse sufficiently flogged. But again, that’s just me. Agree to disagree, no?
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank you dave
the fact that greg was man enough to admit that he may need some help actually makes me like him more. He seems more like a normal person than most other players and any normal person would be completely overwhelmed with what is going on in his life. He’s not a head case like it may get portrayed more likely he just isn’t crazy enough for what is going on in his life
by phillyduck23 on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This deserves like 500 recs
One of your best Dave…
by Rudiculous on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It was alright.
J/K great read took me on a journey. You are a well rounded person Dave.
by broyandgo on Jul 24, 2009 1:02 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It shows how self aware Mr. Greg Oden is. When I found I was suffering from depression I didn’t think my life was as messed up as it was. Then I had a talk with a friend that hadn’t seen me in a few years. He was honest to me. Brought up that I wasn’t laughing anymore and the smile helped define me in my teens didn’t fallow me into my 20’s. Long story short I found some help and have added that great friend to the Christmas card list.
I lift my diet coke with lime and drink a toast of health to you Dave for a story well wrought
and another to G.O. for his courage and self awareness.
"I like whatever metric makes a Blazer look better." jonestr
Reporter: Four assists tonight too, Travis. You're starting to shed that idea that you're just a shooter. You're starting to pass the ball more too...
Travis: (Deadpans) Aw, I just got tired..
by farmboy on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Dave!
“The best blessing is to have a pure spouse step to you: and you say to them, yo my greatest gift was kept for you!”
The Iccsters – “Bounce”
Dave thank you for pointing out the difference between what is given and what is stolen. I would also point out that what was stolen in this case was stolen not only from Erin, but from whoever she intended on giving it to. I do not know her moral convictions but that doesn’t matter in this case. Stealing what should be such a precious gift is terrible and inexcusable. I hope and pray that she does not see her integrity as damaged because of this and that she is able to experience the healing that she needs to reclaim what was stolen from her. Because like Dave said, only she can give it away.
Get at me. I'll be the one rockin' the game worn Rudy jersey baaaaybeeee!!!!!!!!
I got love!!!!!
##
by Sir-1 on Jul 24, 2009 1:18 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I doubt her integrity is in question
from anybody, least of all anybody who would care about her. That’s as it should be.
I suppose I would say that theoretically it doesn’t matter if she would prefer those moments to be shared by one person or she’d prefer to dance in front of hundreds that way…either way it’s her choice how much and in what context to share those things, which is also as it should be. What folks think of those choices could be debated, I suppose. But to me taking beyond those choices is inexcusable.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 24, 2009 1:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Her choices need not be debated.
her choices should be enough, no if and or buts
hg
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is your best post to date Dave. There really hasn't been much mercy on Oden the whole year.
I’m glad he went home for the summer and has been seeing the sports psychologist. You can already see in his video with Casey he seems more calm. Like there isn’t a constant struggle going on in his mind.
by BRoyInThe4th on Jul 24, 2009 2:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know who Erin Andrews is and so I don't know what happened to her
although I suppose I have some clue. Please don’t explain it to me. I’m not curious.
ignacio
by ignacio on Jul 24, 2009 4:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know who she is either.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
by TwoDeep on Jul 24, 2009 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you watch college football?
She’s a solid sideline reporter who happens to also be very attractive.
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
College footbal? I only watch the Duck games.
Guess that’s why I don’t don’t who she is. I do now though I think.
Brandon Roy just destroyed everything in his path. There's your rational analysis -- Dave
Also: COMCAST SUCKS!
by TwoDeep on Jul 24, 2009 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She's been in Corvallis a few times for ESPN games.
Surprised you haven’t seen her on a duck broadcast. She does college hoops as well. By all means a respectable professional that happens to also be very pretty.
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think her looks are blown way up just because of her job
I mean yeah, she good looking, but the hype she gets is amazing.
Los Angeles Lakers 2009-2010 Western Conference Chumps
by Zaig on Jul 24, 2009 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For male sports fans, absolutely.
She’s a good sideline reporter and knows sports as much as any other talking head and, oh yeah, she’s pretty. Add that all together and she probably not only seems prettier because of her job but she also might seem slightly better at her job because of her looks. Can’t fault the woman for having the total package for a media job.
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She's not THAT beautiful come on
You’re all blinded by celebrity status
by thetsaiguy on Jul 24, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not the “celebrity” status (we expect all celebrities to be attractive), it’s that she’s a sports reporter; for that you get bonus points. Not unlike the Danica Patrick phenomenon – neither the best driver and nor the most attractive woman on the tube, but kudos for bringing a bit of both in a world dominated by ugly dudes.
by levelhed on Jul 24, 2009 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meanwhile, there were many occasions last season when Greg had cheap fouls called
and was instantly jerked back to the bench, where I thought that if I were him I might have exploded like a pipe-bomb… the fact that he kept his composure was admirable, but inside no doubt this took its toll.
I hope that he becomes a star.
ignacio
by ignacio on Jul 24, 2009 4:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Really, really good post Dave
I would love to meet you in person sometime — it’s clear that you bring the same levelheadedness and deep thinking to the other elements of your life that you bring to your Blazers analysis.
My only objection to your post came when you described the person who filmed Erin Andrews as “warped”. You personally ascribing that characteristic to the person struck me as incongruous in a post where you are so sympathetic to the effects of circumstance.
The person might have been drunk or high when he or she made the video. The person might have been suffering from the effects of mental illness. The person might have been in danger of losing his or her home and thought that he or she could make some cheap cash by selling it online to the highest bidder. None of these circumstances hypothetically justify what is clearly an unconscionable invasion of Erin Andrews’ privacy, but they certainly make it more understandable.
To describe the action as “reprehensible”, “gross”, “degradation”: yes, I wholeheartedly agree. But the individual as warped? As a pastor, I’m sure you’ve seen dozens of individuals — decent, well-meaning people — whose circumstances combined into a perfect storm of despair and negativity, leading to situations where they commit acts that in normal circumstances would strike them as appalling and wrong.
A battery of psychological research over the last five decades has consistently shown that we are far more vulnerable to the effects of circumstance than we intuitively believe. Condemn the action? Absolutely. But I found it disappointing, especially given the context of the post, when you condemned the person as well.
Having said that, rec.
The Michael Ruffin of BlazersEdge, cuz Amlmart said so.
by BlazersOrBust on Jul 24, 2009 5:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe
when Dave used the term “warped” it was because the video was a planned execution and according to sources such as TMZ, is actually the combination of two instances and two hotels. Two opportunities.
The only reason I know this is because I’m a big Florida Gator fan, and I really want to hear that they caught the person who did this. I don’t think you can write this off as an act off drugs or alcohol. An addiction? yes. That’s what “warped” implies. Who ever this was has an addiction which they need help with, it has driven them to break the law to fulfill it.
Also apparently the video was taken from the adjacent room, prior knowledge, drilled a hole in the wall, planned and premeditated, and basically the person stalked Erin so they would know when to run the camera or filming device.
We are only as vulnerable to the effects of circumstance as we choose to be. If we choose to rise above, then we will. If we choose to subcumb, we will. Our actions are only determined by our thoughts and our thinking. Circumstances are only the object of blame, not the cause. How we choose to react is what determines our being.
I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people.
by ECFIVESTER on Jul 24, 2009 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was an interesting response
And I agree with most of it — just not with what I believe is your fundamental point, “Our actions are only determined by our thoughts and our thinking.” From a psychological perspective, that just isn’t true. Circumstances — as evidenced by the bystander effect, the deindividuation that occurs when you’re part of a crowd, or the obedience studies of Milgram and Asch — have a great deal of influence over our actions.
And I’m not arguing that this individual’s abhorrent actions are excused by whatever his or her circumstances are, or even that the person is even facing negative circumstances. The person’s actions aren’t excusable, period. I just felt that Dave’s tone almost placed this person beyond the pale, like he or she is some subclass of human being who merits only our contempt…when in reality, given the “right” (or wrong) mix of volatile circumstances, every single one of us would cross lines that we would never in ordinary situations. That’s all.
The Michael Ruffin of BlazersEdge, cuz Amlmart said so.
by BlazersOrBust on Jul 24, 2009 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Research
While I respect and understand what you are saying, and I will agree that being part of a crowd or a mob affects the effective thinking and attitudes of a person. I must call into question the research being used to validate it.
When someone is looking to find something, they will find it, or they will find a way to convince themselves they have found it. However, since I am not a liscenced or a degree holding psychologists or psychotherapist, I must concede that I am merely stating mine own opinion, which may or may not be fact.
I do understand how Dave can use the terminology of “warped” to describe the individual without assigning them as being fully aware of what they were doing and possessing knowledge of what and where their actions would lead. But I also see how it could mean that very thing, and I find it hard to believe when it comes to pornography, as this case is, that this person was under some sort of distress other than self-imposed from pornographic addiction.
I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people.
by ECFIVESTER on Jul 24, 2009 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really do share your sentiments
One of the commandments of life is do what you feel you need to do, but be willing to pay the price.
But in defense to Dave:
the difinition of Warped:
intransitive verb to make something deviate from its usual or correct course, or deviate from a usual or correct course
So that goes with what you said. there are many of circumstances that can cause a person to do warped things.
hg
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh Boo Hoo
Seriously? Let’s not give the person a timeout, clean their diaper, and tell them do better and be done with it. If the term warped is offensive just imagine you being the victim here, and how much more offensive will “warped” really be???
I’ll actually one up Dave, so you can stop being obnoxious about “warped.” The person is villian, crook, thief, robber, liar, perjurer, prevaricator, vulgar, crude, profane, abusive, twisted, corrupt, and possessing attributes of evil.
I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people.
by ECFIVESTER on Jul 24, 2009 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perjurer and robber have legal definitions
I don’t know if the person has lied under oath, or used force or the threat of force to rob someone.
Other than that, I’ll go along with your list…..
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 24, 2009 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did not know that
Robber had a legal definition of the such. Thanks for the knowledge.
I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people.
by ECFIVESTER on Jul 29, 2009 5:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool down ECFIVESTER
I am on your side, I was just stating that Dave did not use the word Warped wrong.
I did not mean to ruffle any feathers. As you said hat was done to Erin Anderson was done by a very evil person.
bbk
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Apologies BBK
I felt that there was an underlying theme or idea that it was wrong to use the term warped as if the feelings of the person who committed the violating act are of supreme importance.
It’s just sad that 1 in 4 women have been sexually abused by the time they’re 25. That number may be 1 in 3, I’ve heard that recently, but regardless that is sickening. And I don’t believe we as a society can afford to pass out excuses for those who engage in these activities or do anything of the likeness to promote it. In my opinion they do not deserve the privilege of the benefit of the doubt.
I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people.
by ECFIVESTER on Jul 29, 2009 5:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm down with "warped"
If the person was drunk or high, perhaps there was an outside influence that was “warping” them, but they were warped when they did that. And he chose to do what he did.
Lots of people who get drunk or have mental illness or are losing their homes don’t decide to do this.
I would guess that to be a pastor doesn’t mean you make excuses for people who do these kinds of things, it means that you hold out hope for change and forgiveness. That doesn’t come by saying, “It wasn’t my fault, I was influenced.” It comes by saying, “I may have been influenced, but I still made that decision, it was wrong, I am sorry, and I’m going to do my best to never do the same again.” And if that means that you do those kinds of things when you are drunk, then it means you choose to never get drunk, because you know that choosing to get drunk is choosing to do those kinds of things.
I would hope that would be the kind of discussions a pastor would have with someone who does this kind of thing.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Post
Thank you for giving some perspective on Oden and Andrews.
by da34shadow on Jul 24, 2009 5:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I have a psychology mentor at Harvard who I respect greatly, but I would definitely consider Dave as equally qualified assisting people through difficult situations. He just knows about "life and stuff" and can express it in clear writing.
by Norsktroll on Jul 24, 2009 6:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agreed
i much appreciate Dave’s time spent to elucidate our commonly held but difficult to express perspectives. this is also great news to hear about Greg’s maturity in the face of relentless critique. the body, the mind,the spirit all must act as one young grasshopper …
patience my son ...
by luna on Jul 24, 2009 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave, I'm sharing this with my sister in law
She’s 17 about to turn 18 and I know she needs to know that, yes, there are men out there who don’t see you as an object but as a person. And she is important.
So thank you, Dave.
I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people.
by ECFIVESTER on Jul 24, 2009 6:53 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But all men do indeed have their "inner 14 year old"...
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
by timbo on Jul 24, 2009 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That doesn't mean they have to listen it
Or act on it!
A true man has mastery over himself, something every single one of us should strive to enjoy and possess.
I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people.
by ECFIVESTER on Jul 24, 2009 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd hope that most "inner 14 year olds" aren't telling the "outer adult" to drill holes in a wall and point a camera at someone while they're changing.
Otherwise I’d say you should get that inner 14 year old to a child psychologist.
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely!
I remember reading an article about 15 years ago about a clinical study that concluded that human beings are not genetically pre-disposed to monogamy. My response was simple – who cares? That doesn’t give me an excuse to go live like a dog, seeking to try and impregnate as many females as I can. The reality is that there are plenty of things that I might be pre-disposed to do that I should have the self-control not to do.
I read about another study a year ago that concluded that some people might be genetically pre-disposed towards violent behavior. So do we excuse a guy hitting his girlfriend because he has an inclination to do so that comes from a genetic pre-disposition? Absolutely not.
There are plenty of things that come ‘naturally’ to us that cause damage to others, to society and ultimately to ourselves. Our morality – making decisions about what is right and wrong – has to be based on something other than just “I’m doing what comes naturally to me – that’s just who I am”.
by Storyteller on Jul 24, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That doesn’t give me an excuse to go live like a dog, seeking to try and impregnate as many females as I can.
I’ve tried explaining this to friends in the past. I’m pretty sure that if you don’t “get it” you never will. Some people are genetically predisposed to not “get” monogamy. Sad part is, many of them try and fail.
SIGN BRANDON ROY TO A 5 YEAR DEAL NOW!
by ArbyOSU on Jul 24, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, it's not an easy issue
“Right” does not mean “easy”. Nor does it mean that if I think something is right that I will always do it. That’s part of the human condition.
It’s also why we need each other – so that we can help provide encouragement, rebuke and accountability so that we will be better people than we would be on our own.
by Storyteller on Jul 24, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you think of meat eating?
The Michael Ruffin of BlazersEdge, cuz Amlmart said so.
by BlazersOrBust on Jul 24, 2009 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with eating meat
I don’t eat as much as I used to, but I eat meat.
by Storyteller on Jul 24, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious.
The “it might be what we’re predisposed to do but that doesn’t make it right” argument is one that I’ve heard from vegetarians and vegans before. No value judgment intended either way.
The Michael Ruffin of BlazersEdge, cuz Amlmart said so.
by BlazersOrBust on Jul 24, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a friend who enjoys saying
“If God didn’t want me to eat cows, He wouldn’t have made them taste so good.”
by Storyteller on Jul 24, 2009 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, resisting temptations is a big part of the moral code of the bible.
I don’t do it either when it comes to eating animals – but of course want them to be treated right even if the end of their existence is predetermined as a food source.
by Norsktroll on Jul 24, 2009 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I usually say
If God didn’t want us to eat animals, He wouldn’t have made them out of meat.
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx
by RDreamer on Jul 24, 2009 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
...Tastey meat.
+1
μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.
by T Darkstar on Jul 24, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a valid argument
applied to meat eating as well.
If you believe there is something morally wrong with meat eating, the fact that you are predisposed to do so doesn’t justify it.
I am unpersuaded of the vegan/vegetarian argument, but I would never use the “predisposed” line to argue against it.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that is one of Storyteller's best comments ever
Rec.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Individuals from both genders objectify one another.
It’s sexist to think only men are capable of objectifying others.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
by AK1984 on Jul 24, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sadly it's only going to get worse
WIth the further development of technology and the continuing degradation of decency, can you imagine the world our kids and our grandkids will live in? Any slip-up has the potential to reach millions of people in minutes. It’s insane. If I were famous I would live in a bunker and never come out.
Couple things:
- I’ve seen a still or two it looks extremely dull. It’s a naked girl brushing her hair. Wow. To those who are curious, I wouldn’t even bother.
- I think this was handled sort of poorly by espn and Andrews herself. You can’t fight the internet. Instead of running around trying to ban sites, just let it be. It’s there. It’s horrible, but it’s there. The best thing for them to do would have been to just stay quiet and not give it anymore publicity.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jul 24, 2009 6:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
As far as Oden, whatever you need buddy
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jul 24, 2009 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the pictures are no longer available
which means the fight was not futile. However, you need to very cautious in endorsing a “minimize publicity” approach for victims of sex crimes. Rapists get away with their crimes most often because of the shame felt by victims. It takes courage for such victims to seek help – and we need to be ready to support that courage without ANY recrimination for the victim.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 24, 2009 8:44 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
The real story
This video has actually been on dailymotion’s website for a few month, (although it is taken down now) with no one knowing it was Andrews. She apparently found out about the video, knew it was her and then took action. Which is really interesting to me, because I agree that you can’t fight the internet, but she choose to do so, when she could have just left it alone and no one would have been the wiser to who it really was in the video. Not sure I would make the same choice if it was my daughter or wife, but my first emotional response is to “take it down and sue who ever keeps it up!”.
Ben II Blazersedge.com || New to Blazers' Edge?
by usmcr3049 on Jul 24, 2009 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Analogizing voyeurism with rape is a real stretch and potentially offensive to some folks out there.
Although I’ve never experienced either situation, I’m pretty sure everyone agrees that the latter is a way more vile act than the former.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
by AK1984 on Jul 24, 2009 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the logic works for both of them
People are ashamed, people stay quiet, nothing gets done.
It’s to a much higher degree with rape than with something like this, but the same outcome happens for both.
Los Angeles Lakers 2009-2010 Western Conference Chumps
by Zaig on Jul 24, 2009 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Both are sexual offenses
with potentially similar emotional responses, in kind if not in magnitude. It is mental rape.
In this case, it was compounded by the publicizing of it, which increases the magnitude. No, it still isn’t rape.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 24, 2009 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You could find it if you tried. Trust me.
The pics are available.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jul 24, 2009 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and I'm not blaming the victim or suggesting she not attempt to press criminal charges, simply saying that fighting the internet is futile
In fact I’ve heard that the vid has been around for weeks or months and only now after her people confirmed it was her did it become mainstream.
Blazer Fan
by leeroyjenkins on Jul 24, 2009 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A sign of strength not weakness
First Dave, I want to say that was a very moving article on both people.
Second, I went to see a counselor for about the same reason’s. My depression was bottled up for somewhat like 40 years and came out doing a marriage dissolvement. seeing a counselor for emotional dysfunction is no different than seeing a Dr. or dentist.
You are absolutely right about it all; I think I was looking for a magic wand. It turned out that they listen to you and tell you there is not magic wand. Improvements in life are more worthy, gratifying and honored if you achieve them yourself.
It is strength to go get help for emotional or mental problems, not a weakness. I honestly don’t see how anybody can live in these times without getting depressed.
A story I must share. My counselor told me he could not help me, he could only help me help myself in what I wanted out of my life. He than asked me what I wanted. After saying “I don’t know” (LOL) a few times I summarized that I wanted to get control over my life again.
He inserted that he could smell that I was a smoker. After I confirmed that I was, He folded up his notes and said quit smoking, I’ll see you next week. Now I was really upset, I went to get help to straighten up my life and that SOB tells me to quit smoking. The following week after me blurting out all my hurts and frustrations of life, he ends the session the same way. I can smell you are still a smoker, so quit smoking and I will see you next week. I asked, Why in the hell are you so freaked out on my smoking? His answer was, you figure it out.
The answer was of course was I had told him that I wanted to get control of my life and he was helping me do that.. You do that by getting control over the things that control you. He was showing me that you take control over your life one step at a time. Sometimes you take two steps forward and one back, or two steps backwards and one forward. Just don’t give up. Now, anybody that ever smoked knows the control smoking has on your life. Quit smoking was the fist step to getting control over things that control me.
It was brought out that I wouldn’t allow myself the feeling of pain mentally or physically. Yielding to pain was not Manning up. Pun intended. Therefore the fear of pain was controlling my life.
In conclusion, it is ok to feel the pain. It is ok to get depressed; it is ok not to live up to others expectations. It is not letting these feelings control your life. Control your emotions of any kind or I will guarantee you, your emotions will control you. If you cannot get a grip or control your life seek help.
I thank you Dave for that terrific article.
bbk
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 6:58 AM PDT reply actions 6 recs
Great comment
That was a great counselor.
Most problems in life come because people allow things to control them. The person who says, “I will overcome this one problem in my life, this one thing,” and does it, is on their way. When you do that, you haven’t really changed the circumstance, you’ve changed yourself.
Rec.
When I rule the world, everyone will know how to use Excel.
by jscot on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oden and Andrews
Great article Dave. I do counseling in the area of addictions and the neurology of the brain. I believe this counseling is important in different phases of our lives.
Thanks for your honestly sharing your story.
HarryO
by harryO on Jul 24, 2009 7:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I usually talk, Today I listen.
Not only was that a great article. It had the most unified response of any blog post I have read.
I read each and every response up to now and was completely taken away with the passion shown.
After some of the haters of Greg, I was sure I would hear some negative reactions.
I know little about the Erin Anderson episode. Only what I heard on 95.5 The Game.
I thank all you bloggers for sharing your warmth.
bbk
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 7:25 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Dave.
I come for Blazer fun and get life affirming thought provoking stuff.
Greg’s seeking strength in all forms- good stuff.
This Erin Andrews matter better. Thank you for articulating the words that were struggling to formulate in me. The simple difference between things given and those taken in human interaction. Everything important is in knowing and appreciating that difference.
I too think this message may be your most valued gift to me to date.
Bedge or go home.
by Ojala John on Jul 24, 2009 7:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Dave
Not just for writing another excellent piece, but for your willingness to share a bit of yourself with us. I think that most of us know that (as others have already commented) it is a sign of strength, not of weakness, to reach out for help in a time of need. But somehow, when it comes to us experiencing that time of need, our pride often keeps us from asking for the help. I hope that your experience serves as an inspiration to someone who might be struggling with a similar situation – and helps them make the decision to get the help they deserve and need.
It’s tough to overcome the stigma of ‘seeking professional help’. I know because I had to overcome it myself 3 years ago. For me, it was an issue of image – I wouldn’t let others see that I made mistakes – and it was getting me into trouble as I sought to cover up things that I had done. I knew that I needed to see a counselor, but my pride kept getting in the way. It unfortunately took a crisis of sorts to push me over the edge so that I could admit that I needed help, but I am so glad I did. I am a healthier and happier person as a result.
I smiled when I read yesterday about Greg seeing a sports psychologist. I have great admiration for this young man having the courage to face his issues rather than pretend that they don’t exist. And I hope that, beyond his performance on the court, he finds a greater sense of peace and satisfaction this year than he did in the past 12 months.
by Storyteller on Jul 24, 2009 8:28 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
There is definitely a stigma.
Seeing a psychologist, or even taking medication, carries a very negative label, even though that label is completely undeserved.
μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.
by T Darkstar on Jul 24, 2009 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All the more reason to praise Greg's decision
I know how difficult it was for me, as a 40 year old man, to drop my pride and admit that I needed help.
I can’t imagine what that decision was like for a 20 year old who is in the public spotlight all the time.
by Storyteller on Jul 24, 2009 9:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is where many problems began.
Many people are to embarrassed to get help because of the Negative label.
bbk
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good for you
The person that benefit the most frrom seeking help of any sort is that individual. “The life you save may be your own”
bbk
by BBK on Jul 25, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are two issues with Greg Oden.
A lot of people think that they are related, but in reality, they don’t necessarily go together.
The first is the issue of depression. I’m not trained in that field (or at least not as much as someone who can really make a diagnosis), but I have lived through mild episodes of it, and my wife has dealt with more serious depression.
There’s a lot of misunderstanding about depression out there. A person with depression doesn’t just “cheer up” or “stop acting like Eeyore.” Getting out of depression is hard work. For me, getting something accomplished helps bring me out of depression, but it’s that very depression that causes me not to want to do anything. It’s a devastating spiral that, if not addressed, can lead one further and further into depression. Something similar looked to be happening with Greg Oden, from the little bit I could see from the outside. I don’t pretend to know what his spiral consisted of, but it was hard work to get out of it.
Like Dave said above, this kind of thing is just as debilitating as a physical injury, and takes the same kind of work ethic to try and escape. Sometimes medications can help with that. Just as medications help people to recover more effectively from physical injuries or maladies.
The problem is that our society has made depression and depression medication into something of a second-class citizen. Helpful medications become the punchline of jokes. Depressed people are looked at as not trying very hard. People with depression have been labeled in our society. And the general consensus is that you avoid being labeled with depression at all costs, even as that said depression eats away at your very being. Depression is real, it isn’t “just in your head” as if it was something pretended.
If Greg was indeed suffering from depression, then seeing a psychologist was the best possible thing for him to do, for a lot of the reasons Dave listed above. The outside perspective is vitally important. The other thing that is helping Greg is being able to go out and work at basketball. Going all out in his workouts in a way that he hasn’t been able to do for two years. Playing for Team USA has got to be helping as well.
The second issue for Greg is being misunderstood as an introvert. An introvert isn’t what the stereotype paints. I should know, I’m an introvert as well. Extroverts tend to see introverts as aloof, loney or depressed, when most of the times that isn’t the case at all. Oden strikes me as an introvert trying to fit in to an extroverted world. At twenty years old, that’s a tough task. Tougher, I’d say for Greg Oden, than becoming an All-Star.
Oden isn’t the only introvert we have on our team. Aldridge strikes me as one as well. Roy could be. Being an introvert doesn’t mean that one avoids social situations, or is bad at them. It means that introverts get their energy from their time alone, where extroverts get their energy from being around others.
Jonathan Rouch printed a very interesting article about introverts in the March 2003 edition of The Atlantic. A worthwhile read for anyone, introvert and extrovert alike.
Like I said above, most people will think that these two issues are the same thing, and that isn’t the case at all.
μὴ φοβοῦ, μόνον πίστευε.
by T Darkstar on Jul 24, 2009 8:46 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Thanks for the link and for the concise description of an introvert
I need to send that to a whole bunch of people I know.
by Corvid on Jul 24, 2009 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is Greg me?
You describing Greg and yourself, I thought you were describing me.
I let my depression go unchecked for 40 years than it becomes chronic depression than you are stuck for the rest of your life. To me that means my body is so used to life with depression that it doesn’t know how to function without depression. Therefore it will create depression for no reason to feel normal. Much like your body will create the want for a cigarette to the point of driving you crazy and only a cigarette will solve the problem because that is what your body is used to. Isn’t that a bummer?
Many people think that depressed people are always down emotionally, but in fact you can get yourself very high. Your emotions become like a tidal wave of up and downs. Whereas most peoples emotions are like ripples across the water from a light breeze. That is more or less what Nate was teaching the team; don’t get too high on a win and not too low on a loss.
People try so hard not to get down emotionally because it doesn’t feel good. But anything that goes up will come down and to let the downers happen is a good cure for depression. The best scenario for that is a death of a loved one. The tendency is to block it out where you can’t feel the pain.
I am also an introvert. You are right on that also. I am a loner and that is the reason. I get my power then. As in it is time for me to power up :>). My definition is introverts powers from within and extroverts get there power from outside sources.
We get the criticism’ much as Greg did, but when your friends fail you we still have our power from within, when an extroverts friends fail them they become powerless. That is why Greg seeks help. he reached inside and realized he was losing his power to evil forces.
A very good article, I enjoyed it very much.
bbk
by BBK on Jul 24, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent article and good post
I was ready to comment (I am an introvert as well) that introverts draw our energy from being alone and give off energy from being with people while extroverts draw their energy from being with people and give off energy from being alone. This article echos my life experience.
by lee3022 on Jul 24, 2009 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Warning
Everything you said is fantastic. Getting involved and staying involved stops the heart ache of depression, but the cause is still within.
It is wise to use everything you said about depression just to take the edge off. That gives you more strength to deal with the underlying cause. Otherwise, you still have to do the work. You can’t just sit on it thinking that the involvement will take it away.
An alcoholic can quit drinking to improve his or her life. They will still have the problems that caused them to drink in the first place until they dissolve that problem. That is why AA uses the 7 step approach to curing alcoholism.
I am 70 years old and can no longer do the things I use to do to alleviate depression. Therefore I have to go out and find new things to do. I still have it under control, but it is still there waiting for me to let my guard down. It is not nearly as destructive now as it was 30 years ago, because I know I can deal with it, but it is still there.
Your thoughts and feelings about depression is still the best medication you can take. Just watch out that you don’t become a workaholic. I think that may be the emotional problem that JBay has.
Thank you
hg
by BBK on Jul 25, 2009 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Dave
I cringed when I first saw some of the mentions of Oden going to a sports psychologist. I don’t think it should even have been news, but there was relish in covering it as significant and more reason to speculate about GO. I’d hope that most players in the league speak to a psychologist or counselor often; they have a profession that is filled with stress from fear of failure, new wealth, lack of trust, and instability (travel, trades, coach changes, etc.).
I also appreciated your comments about Erin Andrews. I wasn’t aware of the case, but your comments were insightful and well received. Without being prudes or puritans, sometimes we need to step back from our sexuality obsessed culture and use our morals to recognize the lines that show someone (or all of us) have gone to far.
Beyond the topics, this was a very, very well written piece, which makes your points all the more powerful.
All that glitters isn't chrome
by hoopla-pdx on Jul 24, 2009 9:11 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Agree on all points
I’m looking forward to the day when talking to a sports psychologist isn’t news at all, let alone a “bombshell.” I’m sure that many players talk to a counselor, and that most teams have a psychologist available, in addition to doctors, nutritionists, etc.. Yeah it’s unusual for someone like Greg or Martell to talk about it with the press, but I’d like to think that’s a sign that visiting “a little shrink” doesn’t carry the same stigma that it once did.
by Corvid on Jul 24, 2009 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well put, Dave
I loved the following lines: “But at the end of the day you can’t really see Erin Andrews or any person by taking that route. You cannot see those moments as they were meant to be shared. They cannot be as they were meant to be if they were stolen. When you attempt to reduce someone to an object, a shell, then a shell is all you get. The real, vital, living human being slides beyond your vision, as does the meaningful experience.”
Sorry to crib from your article (I’m not even sure if that’s allowed for the comment section) but that was so beautifully put I had to repeat it. I don’t know if I had ever thought of it that way and I know I could never express it as well. Thanks for being that voice.
I want to put points on your face.
by bonesbarry on Jul 24, 2009 9:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great Article
Good job Dave.
I know that your personal life is private so thank you for the peek you gave us in helping to understand the issues you dealt with.
by ExpatDan on Jul 24, 2009 9:42 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
nothing wrong with asking for help
Oden is obviously a sensitive young man still trying to figure out his place in the world. Some people are telling him to be more friendly (Marketing Dept?), others are encouraging him to be more aggressive (coaching staff).
Everyone’s talking about him, one way or the other. That’s a lot of pressure.
I’ve been to several counselors in my life and found great value in each visit. There’s no stigma in asking for help. The days of a man having to be strong and proud all the time are over.
Gotta go- Starbury’s back up on UStream.
by kneejerkNBA on Jul 24, 2009 9:54 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If it isn't a big deal..
why does Blazer’s Edge very own Ben call it a “bombshell”?
It's = It Is
Its = Belongs to It
by 12sharks on Jul 24, 2009 10:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice write ups Dave.
Well thought out, articulated. Nice work.
by Knobby on Jul 24, 2009 11:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Two questions
I’m not just talking some line of theoretical, radical feminism here.
I’m trying to understand something here:
a) Would your discussion be less valid if you were taking a more express feminist approach?
b) Is your discussion then more valid because it’s based on other less developed generalizations about and reflections upon society?
Clearly, the Andrews crime is heinous and worth condeming, but I can’t understand the motivation here to throw in a unnecessary jab at “radical” feminism in the process. It seems to defeat the point i.e. “I’m going to stand up to sex crimes but for real reasons not that feminist nonsense.”
That seems counterproductive.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
by rosewood on Jul 24, 2009 11:33 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I would say
you have to choose which interpretation of those words you’re going to go with. You have identified two interpretations here, which for lack of a better term I’ll call the “academic” and “popular culture” definitions.
The popular culture definition interprets “radical” and “theoretical” pejoratively. The slant here would be feminism as some kind of wacky mumbo-jumbo that reasonable people shouldn’t buy into. If that’s your take on feminism then rather than arguing with you (which is not the point of the piece) I’d simply say that feeling that this event is a bad thing is not that wacky. It seems pretty basic to me.
The academic definition understands “radical” and “theoretical” as proper and precise terms used commonly in analysis. Radical means far-reaching or sweeping. Theoretical means speculative or hypothetical. Neither means “bad”. Far-reaching feminisim that pushes definitions beyond the commonly accepted can be both good and necessary for growth. If this is your interpretation, then the negative “I’m not talking some line of…” isn’t a value judgment. Rather it’s saying you don’t really need those particular tools for this particular job. It’s akin to saying, “You don’t need calculus for this…addition will do.” That’s not a knock on calculus or anyone who understands its practices and theories. In fact calculus could be understood as the higher, more revered discipline in that statement.
The way I’m reading your comment it feels like you’re imparting the popular culture definition to my statement while reserving the academic definition to yours. Actually I tend more towards the academic definition, with enough understanding of my audience to know that I also have to allow a loophole into the subject for those who lean to the popular culture side. The statement works either way and that’s intentional. But if you’re going to use that leeway to attach the less reasonable definition to my words while keeping the more reasonable one with yours, then you are, by definition, going to come up with something that looks counterproductive on my part.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 24, 2009 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well
So you’re saying you used “radical” as a term of art, and your statement was actually an expression of reverence because to condemn the Andrews crime you did not need to reach the more incisive and far reaching concerns of radical feminism?
Then three questions/comments
a) If you were using “radical” as a term of art, then why did you opt to isolate only radical feminism for this reverent treatment as opposed to, say, postmodern or libertarian feminism? Furthermore, were you using “theoretical” in contrast to “ideological” or “political” radical feminism? I mean, are you saying that you specifically selected theoretical, radical feminism from all other forms of feminism? That doesn’t seem likely. I think it seems here that you simply meant for “radical” and “theoretical” to have their general, non-academic meanings but you did not mean to attach any negative connotations to the terms. Fair enough.
b) If you meant “You don’t need radical feminism for this, non-radical feminist reasoning will do” then you should have stated that. What you said doesn’t mean that in this context.
“I’m not just talking some line of theoretical, radical feminism” literally means you are talking theoretical, radical feminism but you are also talking something else in addition (i.e. I am not only talking…). But you, in fact, weren’t really talking TRF proper and certainly not in an academic way, so I assumed you were using the statement in a more colloquial way i.e. to mean that you are not talking TRF because that would be insufficient or bad (think of a politician stating, “I’m not just campaigning out of vanity. I’m campaigning so I can help people.”) If you weren’t, fair enough.
c) My criticism of your comment wasn’t based on a distinction between popular and what you call “academic” definitions of “radical” and “theoretical.” Under either definition, your statement comes off in a bad way. “Some line” in particular is probably the most pejorative phrase and certainly doesn’t strike the apparently dry, academic tone for which your were striving. Moreover, and most importantly, the comment just didn’t make a lot of sense in the context of your post.
I mean, there seemed to be two running contributing forces to the Andrews crime in your post 1) the widespread social perceptions of sexuality in sports and 2) the particular warping of this individual. And the point seemed to be that no matter the particular warping of this individual, we can’t forget that contributed to the society that produced this crime as well. Fair enough. But I don’t see 1) why you needed to bring up TRF at all to make this point or 2) how your statement that TRF wasn’t necessary furthered that point.
It’s superfluous, and in trying to figure out why this superfluous statement was there I assumed it may have been there as a slight, since academic theory generally isn’t looked on too favorably.
But If it wasn’t, fair enough. All is well. To be honest, I never thought it certainly was, which is why my comment had questions. I thought it might have been fuzzy phrasing as well.
But no matter, too much about too little at this point.
Best.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
by rosewood on Jul 24, 2009 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, you have to consider audience
And also to narrow the scope of the line you’re referencing.
Without that line (and maybe with it…the day isn’t over yet) somebody would be sure to interpret my argument as, “We are all responsible for every wrong thing that everyone does and particularly all men are responsible for the sins of each man because of the male-dominated culture” which they would then go on to call extreme feminism. Then a debate would start about whether feminism is good or bad, too prevalent or not enough, and so on. Maybe that’s an argument that needs to be had, but that is really outside of the point I was making in that paragraph.
The specific point was this: You can argue back and forth about the culture and its effect on people, specifically whether or not we influenced the perpetrator of this crime to look through that peephole in the first place. Some might come down on the side of it being his individual act. Some might come down on the side of the culture influencing him. Wrapped up in that discussion will be the feminist critique and the critique of the feminist critique. While all of that is arguable, the impetus for him putting the video online (specifically) is inarguable. He posted it because he thought we’d want to see it, meaning he thought we’d be interested in and perhaps approve of such material. The only place he could have gotten that idea is us. That’s less feminism and more simple cause and effect. Even a devoted non-feminist or anti-feminist would have a hard time denying it. That particular aspect of this crime revealed our culpability in it and therefore a matter that is actionable for all of us…at minimum to the point of us reflecting on what we think and how we express ourselves to each other in these matters.
The line you’re questioning was not superfluous, nor was it an attempt to discredit feminism (radical or otherwise), nor was it an attempt to reverence feminism. (My purpose of putting that caveat in the earlier explanation was not to indicate intent, rather to point out that the phraseology did not automatically equate to scorn and could even be seen as complimentary.) Rather it was an attempt to clear away the complexities and objections which were likely to get in the way, narrowing the focus to a fine point for that one paragraph for the purpose of defining the place at which we could all unite in responsibility.
In short, my inclusion of that line was an attempt to avoid tangential debate which I felt would sidetrack the issue.
Don;t worry about commenting more if you’d like. I enjoy conversations like this and always have.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 24, 2009 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it reads less offensively
I think I’d be just as happy with “I’m not trying to appropriate a line from radical or theoretical feminism.” Same general idea. Less of the language that detractors would use and thus perhaps less oratory-based.
—Dave
by Dave on Jul 24, 2009 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's a common problem
and it happens on a lot of inflammatory topics. Essentially, one group has pre-defined the terms that the later group cannot fully escape the initial groups view b/c it still uses its terms.
Like with race, for instance: despite every biologist in the world telling us that race is only cultural artifact, generally we still talk about racial distinctions with no more or even less sophistication than a Victorian. Yay.
Good times.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
by rosewood on Jul 24, 2009 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
Okay, so I get it. You were actually trying to anticipate and disable the position I thought you were taking. I can see how that happened.
Essentially, you were trying to say: “And even if you think feminism is a bunch of bull, his motivation for putting the video on the internet proves my point on non-feminist terms.”
Sure, makes sense. I don’t know that your statement necessarily accomplished that (it had me confused) but I get it.
I would say though that this statement:
The only place he could have gotten that idea is us. That’s less feminism and more simple cause and effect. Even a devoted non-feminist or anti-feminist would have a hard time denying it. That particular aspect of this crime revealed our culpability in it and therefore a matter that is actionable for all of us
isn’t really correct. The person’s motivation would simply prove that he (or she) thought we wanted to see it. Whether or not we actually would or at least led him to believe that we would and were thus culpable requires broader social criticism though not necessarily feminist criticism. But you can’t get there on cause and effect based on his motivation. I mean, if a person thinks people want to see him singing Sting naked in his bedroom, it doesn’t necessarily mean we’re culpable for him having that thought because he may just be irrational. You would need more to make that point.
But yeah, I think we’re clear now.
Don't feel bad, Channing. We can't rebound either.
by rosewood on Jul 24, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Long-Time Reader, First-Time Comment:
Hey Dave,
This really isn’t knee-jerk. As my subject says,
I’ve read BEdge for a while now, but never felt
like commenting, for various reasons. Ok mostly
cuz I don’t know, or pretend to know, more than
you or even several of the commentors. Thus, I
generally I don’t think I have much to add. (Some
would say this comment is no exception; I’m not
really adding anything to the article, lol.) But just
this once, I had to comment.
To say thanks.
Thanks for not being a pervert.
Thanks for not being a coward.
Thanks for having some dignity.
Thanks for being a man.
(Though Mike Gundy would
contest that, being 40, you
are already a man…Sorry, no
way I could resist, lol.)
There is no issue in sports that irks me
so deeply as the sexualization of it. I hate
having “cheerleaders” on the sideline.
I especially hate having Blazer Dancers
at the games. Agree, disagree, I don’t
give a dang. If it’s just me, that won’t
change my opinion a whit. I think it’s foul.
I think it’s a damnable shame.
I think women are worth more than that.
I don’t think they’re something to be ogled.
I think they’re something to be valued.
I don’t think they’re a toy.
I think they’re humans. I think they’re souls.
Do I notice pretty girls? Of course. God
made me that way. He put attraction in us.
Doesn’t mean I have to devolve into twisted
imaginings or the like. At it’s heart, lust
is just attraction devolved past where it
ever should go. Attraction is not wrong…
Lust is. That’s the issue here. Attraction
gone far beyond the bounds of dignity
or even rationality.
I’ll shut up now; Dave said this all
far more eloquently. I just had to let this
out. It’s been boiling since I went to my 1st
football game and wondered why pretty
girls would show themselves like that.
And why the “men” would encourage it.
Come on. Cheerleaders, Blazer Dancers…
They’re not about the sport. They have
nothing to do with basketball. They’re
about us being lustful. They’re about us
being too cowardly to stand up and say
no to ‘soft’ porn. And too cowardly to admit it.
I’m not passing blame, I’m crying shame.
Shame on us. We should be so much
better than this.
So thanks for saying it, Dave. You yourself
may not agree with everything I’ve said,
but glad to know we’re at least on the same
side as this. Glad somebody people will listen
to stood up for Dignity. Thanks for being that
one. Not side-stepping it with a “Oh yeah of
course I think that’s out of line,” but facing it
head on. Thanks.
P.S. Now any chance of those nasty banner
ads for online games with porn-lite on them
being tossed? Seriously.
by j.rice on Jul 24, 2009 11:36 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Just one more thing...
Hope I didn’t come off as a proud
holier-than-thou, blind to or in denial
of my own faults and failings. I’m not. I’m
far more painfully cognisant of my
own problem with lust, and my many
other problems. than I am of those
of anyone else. When I said “shame
on us”, I didn’t mean shame on you.
I meant shame on us, myself foremost.
If anyone ever needed a God to forgive
and change him, it was and is me.
by j.rice on Jul 24, 2009 12:13 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Misread that title
Thought it was going to be about Oden, (Andrew) Bynum and (Andrew) Bogut.
"I don’t have the first clue who he is talking about, because all I worry about is Jerome." – Jerome James, on comments by coach Nate McMillan about Seattle SuperSonics players being selfish.
by Devenex on Jul 24, 2009 12:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Erin Andrews
Erin has always come across like my smart, funny, hot-looking cousin… And if I knew about anyone secretly taping her,or even helping to circulate or promote or seek out those tapes, I would want to punch them in the face as hard as I could.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I&feature=channel_page
by The Cactus Leaguer on Jul 24, 2009 2:02 PM PDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
here here, Dave
Both points are spot on.
I’d like to add: everyone should be tending to their mental health! That’s what mentally healthy people do. If you want to pretend you’ve never ever been out of balance or sick, then keep up the pretense, ya liars.
by sagcat on Jul 24, 2009 4:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dave bless you
Your writing is often amazing and always succinct and deep but this one was perhaps your best here. Often you have brought us perspective that turned the mob mentality seeking to gather momentum. This one was especially important on both issues. I am moved.
I have been in intensive therapy (but sadly not until I reached age 47) from deep trauma sustained in both childhood and war. I came out the other side with a totally new perspective of myself and of others that has not “cured” me but has allowed me to set the boundaries I need to appreciate each day for what it brings and each person for who they are. It is the nicest thing I ever did for myself (and for my family).
One of the best things I learned about myself is to be open about who I am and what has happened to me (including my therapy). By hiding it I gave others power over me (in my mind). By revealing it I took back that power and actually feel less vulnerable now. Greg has done this so well to announce that he has seen a psychologist. It means he does not have to fear that getting out. And your juxtaposition of the physical therapy with the mental therapy (and emotional therapy?) is so understandable. Thank you.
by lee3022 on Jul 24, 2009 8:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It turned green because at least 5 people gave it a "rec"
They gave it a virtual thumbs up and recommended it for others to read. Green comments are unusual, so congrats. And thanks.
If you click on “actions” under each comment, it gives you the option to Rec a comment (show support for a comment) or Flag (send a message to the moderators that the comment is inappropriate).
by Corvid on Jul 24, 2009 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow: Make me feel good.
I thank you for your reply and the info. I have read many of articles that I thought was quite informative and well written. I will use the rec.
bbk
by BBK on Jul 25, 2009 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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