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Answering a Simple Question


The Hedo Turkoglu thing has such momentum right now that I'm not even going to try to fight it.  We said what we had to say on the subject a couple days ago.  I'll let the sidebar posts and the approximately one billion media references speak for themselves.  Enjoy the whirlwind!

However I did want to get in a couple simple posts.  The Rasheed Wallace one is right below this.  This one covers a question that's been asked multiple times over the last couple of weeks:  Is it possible for the Blazers to trade or release players (say Steve Blake, for instance), have them cut from the team they're traded to, and then pick them up again?  Is it possible to re-sign Channing Frye now that he's released?

The answer to either question is "probably not".  The basis of that answer is the assumption that the Blazers will make moves while under the salary cap this summer.  Most trades featuring Blake are assumed to transpire under the cap or at least in conjuction (or in the wake of) moves that transpire under the cap...signing Turkoglu for instance.  In like fashion Channing Frye was released specifically so the Blazers could get under the cap.

Here's the deal, though.  The Blazers aren't actually under the cap until they make a couple extra moves.  Technically speaking Portland's potential free agents are still registered as cap holds.  The hold of Raef LaFrentz alone is over $19 million.  Portland will have to renounce the rights to LaFrentz, Michael Ruffin, and Shavlik Randolph in order to make full use of their potential cap space.  But even then the Blazers aren't out of the woods.  Portland still has exceptions--the mid-level exception at around $5 million, the bi-annual veteran's exception around $1.2 million, and a trade exception around $3 million (plus another possible small trade exception from the Sergio-to-Sacramento deal)--which all count as cap holds as well.  [Edit:  We now have that small trade exception in the Sergio deal confirmed by a team source.]  That's close to $10 million in cap holds, which puts the Blazers over the cap.  In order to make a trade as a team beneath the cap threshold or to sign free agents using cap space Portland will also have to renounce those exceptions for the year.

In other words, if you trade Blake for Hinrich using Portland's extra cap space to make the deal work you first have to renounce those exceptions.  If you want $8 million to offer Hedo Turkoglu you first have to renounce those exceptions.  And no, you do not get those exceptions back after you've signed Hedo and are now at the cap limit.  You have renounce them for the entire season before you can use your cap space to sign Turkoglu.

In this light it becomes obvious why you can't trade or release a player and then get him back.  You trade Blake for Hinrich and use your available cap space to make that deal.  With Hinrich coming in you are now at the cap limit.  What money can you give to Blake?  You have no mid-level exception this year, nor the bi-annual.  You have no way to offer him a contract.

Similarly you renounced Channing Frye to get cap space.  The only way you could sign him again would be to use that same cap space to get him back.  As with Blake, once you've used the cap space Channing's departure created you don't have any room to sign him again.

The only way this scenario would work would be if the Blazers never went under the cap.  They'd then be able to make use of their exceptions just like any over-the-cap team.  They'd have to trade Blake to Chicago in the usual over-the-cap fashion (matching salaries within 125%+$100,000), wait for the Bulls to release him, and then use one of their cap exceptions to re-sign him.  But in this case there are no free-agent signings beyond what you can get with those exceptions.  (Hint:  That ain't Turkoglu.)  There are no moves requiring extra cap space to facilitate.  You never get any cap space to work with.  It's highly unlikely that the Blazers will choose to do business this way.

For all intents and purposes when one of the current Blazers is traded or released he's gone...at least until 2010-11 when Portland's cap exceptions will reset.

--Dave (blazersub@yahoo.com)

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you forgot

minimum salary contracts.

once we got back over the salary cap (by signing Hedo), we could in theory sign Blake, Channing, or anyone else to a minimum salary deal. These start at a set amount based upon years in the league.

Obvioiusly, that is highly highly farfetched, especially for a guy by Blake, but it is not impossibl.e

How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009

by douglast on Jul 2, 2009 12:27 AM PDT reply actions  

Channing would never go for that

I suppose Blake could. It’s under a million per year but then again the rest of his salary is covered by the team who cut him anyway. The issue I’d have with that if I were him is I’m taking that to play back-up at best and maybe third-string. I think I’d want to play for a team that wanted me more and had more space for me, not the team that traded me away and then offered me the minimum to come back. It’s kind of like divorcing your wife, getting re-married, and then saying your wife can come back as the live-in maid. She’d better like you a WHOLE lot for that to work.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 2, 2009 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

exactly

it’s not gonna happen. But it is theoretically possible, while your OP seemed to say there was simply no way to do it at all.

How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009

by douglast on Jul 2, 2009 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

OK

No way I see as reasonable. I didn’t really consider minimum contracts as fitting that criterion. However it has been done before. Just usually with older or more marginalized players. I’m trying to recall a starter who took that kind of deal and went back to his original team and I’m having a hard time thinking of one.

—Dave

by Dave on Jul 2, 2009 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bruce Bowen?

This might happen with the Spurs

by RuQ on Jul 2, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

sure

but we were talking whther it would happen for us in terms of a Blake or Channing. Bowen is in a vastly different place in his career

How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009

by douglast on Jul 2, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm kinda slow Dave...

If we sign Turk within the next week, does that out our chances of getting a Hienrich type of player?

Who can we feasibly get at the PG/back-up PF then if Turk is on the books? Rememember FEASIBLY/REALISTICALLY, leaps of faith like Harris are probably dead in the water.

B.S. Liberal Studies OSU '06
Trade for Gerald Wallace!!

by TyboOSU on Jul 2, 2009 12:27 AM PDT reply actions  

we can get Hinrich and/or the backup PF type, yes

but we are back to operating under the 125% + 100,000 rules, since we will at that point be over the cap again.

so, Blake + Outlaw for Hinrich would still work.

How did you guys win that?
"We scored enough points. We scored 107, they scored 105.
-Nate McMillan Postgame, 3/4/2009

by douglast on Jul 2, 2009 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

combined salaries x 125% + 100k

So, after Hedo signs and the cap-space is gone, if you want Hinrich you would need to trade Outlaw + Bayless (or Blake)

If you want to get another PF but keep Steve/Jerryd? You can trade Travis 4,000,000 × 125% +100k

The maximum contract that you could “take back” for just Outlaw would be 5,100,000

For Devin Harris we’re talking Outlaw + Rudy + Bayless (or Blake) You could make the deal without Rudy or Batum, but it’s less likely NJ would bite unless one of them is included

by two4larue on Jul 2, 2009 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

if you want Hinrich you would need to trade Outlaw + Bayless

correction, Hinrich’s salary = 9,500,000

Outlaw + Bayless x 125 + 100k only adds up to 7,178,500.

Blake’s 4,000,000 would be required to match salaries and acquire Hinrich

by two4larue on Jul 2, 2009 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

Not that I would ever expect Blake to take one at this stage in his career

But you can always sign someone for the vet min, no matter how far over the cap you are.

by JordanLeDoux on Jul 2, 2009 12:30 AM PDT reply actions  

If NO ONE is interested in a quality shooting Guard

Someone would offer more then the minimum. Plus we would be stunting his growth
Channing would be surprised if no one picked him up as a prospect. Would love to sign him for a small deal to compete for backup PF again.

"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein

by Garden of ODEN on Jul 2, 2009 12:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Stunting bayless growth assuming Hinrich deal and blake free agent

"Knowledge will get you from A to B. Creativity will get you anywhere." Einstein

by Garden of ODEN on Jul 2, 2009 12:36 AM PDT reply actions  

question about the captain

So, Ben Gordon got let go by the bulls. I know he is a shooting guard but wouldn’t that make the bulls less likely to get rid of Hinrich? Anyone heard anything recently on the subject?

by lawgdawg12 on Jul 2, 2009 12:55 AM PDT reply actions  

It does

They have ideas about using him as an off-guard next to Roses (a la Blake and Roy, just with opposite formal roster spots), and Chicago media (Sam Smith, KC) is already spinning the company line that Gordon was an overpaid malcontent anyway and Hinrich’s defense is better. And with Gordon gone we can’t offer them the same cap savings like with a trade of just Blake for Hinrich to save them cap space for Gordon or at least luxury tax.

In short: Our new PG targets are now Miller, Kidd and maybe (hopefully) Sessions.

by Norsktroll on Jul 2, 2009 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

oops

my message below should be here

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Jul 2, 2009 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

They could still use some cap relief.

Hopefully this is up to date, Hoops hype has their ‘09-’10 salary at ~$64 million sans Ben Gordon, as well as Hoopsworld: LINK and LINK

They COULD slide John Salmons to the SG position and take both Blake and Outlaw. Giving them more options at the trade deadline plus a couple of cheaper contracts.

SAY NO TO HEDO.

by dpnim on Jul 2, 2009 2:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

What about just save money for 2010?

Chicago also could trade Kirk’s long-term deal to us for expiring Blake’s and Travis’ contracts and go way under the cap in the summer of 2010 to lure Chris Bosh or Dirk or someone else.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Jul 2, 2009 1:35 AM PDT reply actions  

They wouldn't have a lot to work with anyway since Reinsdorf seems unwilling to go into luxury tax since MJ left despite record earnings

And after they just demonstrated that they are not willing to pay their second best player, I doubt that puts them on top of major FA destination wish lists. The most realistic one is hometown man Dwayne Wade, and he would have to accept less money to play in a cold city with more tax.

by Norsktroll on Jul 2, 2009 1:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

To overpay

their second best player, you should say. 11-12 millions to Ben Gordon sounds absurdly to me.

And also there is a small possibility of landing Bosh this year via Tyrus Thomas + something deal. They are trying to rid of Tyrus since Deadline. And Toronto could lose Bosh for nothing in a year…

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Jul 2, 2009 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

It only takes one team to establish the price. And hey, apparently Detroit was willing to give him what he wanted

He was willing to accept the same offer last year, but at that time Reinsdorf said it was off the table. No wonder he didn’t wait for the Bulls to ask them to match now.

by Norsktroll on Jul 2, 2009 5:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't believe Gordon is THE MAN for any given team.

So why should you pay him such a money? One more overrated/overpaid shooter/scorer like Redd? He is selfish on O and lasy on D.

Just IMO.

P.S. They have decent PG in Rose, nice history and fun base. Why it should be not-so-good FA destination place? Assuming they will accept Blake-Outlaw = Hinrich deal they will have long-terms in Deng and Rose only and total salaries (including Noa, maybe Thomas) near 25 millions mark only.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Jul 2, 2009 6:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

why??

does this even matter anyway? It’s not like once we trade Blake we’ll be looking to reacquire him for a third go round, Bring on Dev Harris!!!

by blaze1 on Jul 2, 2009 3:22 AM PDT reply actions  

and why Hinrich??

He’s not even better than Blake, Really, Blake is better in every statistical category. Who has Hinrich shut down? Since his D is “Substantially better than Blakes”. Bring on Devin Harris!!

by blaze1 on Jul 2, 2009 3:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Hah

Forget about stats and just watch games. All this PERs drives me crazy. I don’t need stats to figure out better player.

And btw show me please example of a deal NJ will accept.

Rudy & Nic

by k04a on Jul 2, 2009 3:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Here's how I see things:

Do I believe that Turkoglu was the #1 option as a player acquisition a month ago? No.

Do I believe that the options above Turkoglu have been explored? Yes.

Do I believe that those other options have been discovered to be ‘unavailable’ or ‘too expensive’? Yes.

Would I be happy with the Blazers signing Turkoglu? Yes.

Am I still concerned that in 2-1/2 years that I (and many others) will see Turkoglu as being drastically overpaid for what he brings then? Yes.

by Storyteller on Jul 2, 2009 6:42 AM PDT reply actions  

I agree

but don’t think it will take 2 1/2 years for us to see that . . .

Turkoglu is the best player standing in free agency, but just because our other options are off the table doesn’t mean we have to make this signing. Again, he’s the best player, but he’s not necessarily the best player for us.

Sometimes the best signings are the ones we don’t make.

by Jackalope 66 on Jul 2, 2009 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

If we get Turkoglu we should

keep Blake and bring in the back up power forward. The primary reason is that with Turkoglu & Roy on the roster we have two guys who can run the offense so bringing in a point guard who is only arguably better than Blake is not needed. Perhaps we sacrifice on the defensive end a bit but Blake’s defense is good enough.

by mlsinpdx on Jul 2, 2009 9:40 AM PDT reply actions  

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