Summer League Game 3 Recap: Blazers 93 Nuggets 111
by Ben Golliver on Jul 17, 2009 10:13 PM PDT
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PrintTonight's Summer League loss to the Denver Nuggets was brutal.
The team's lethargic, unfocused, undisciplined play was nearly unwatchable for Blazers fans and observers who have come to expect a team that brings it every night, plays smart and often plays above its head. Tonight, observers, at least those that made it through the whole game, were treated to a team that didn't bring any intensity to the defensive end or to the glass, played uncertain, unintelligent team basketball, and allowed Denver's full court press to make them look much worse than we've seen earlier this week.
Summer League Coach Joe Prunty called the overall team effort "unacceptable" roughly 15 times in 6 minutes during his postgame media availability and ended one memorable, frustrated flourish with a jab at the team's collective heart: "There's a point where you've got to have pride." He followed that jab with a knockout right when asked how he felt, "I'm not happy. I'm not sure what to say. I don't want to lose. I don't understand the question." Prunty was seriously pissed.
PPS Bayless went down late in the fourth quarter with "right calf spasms." He sported big ice packs on both legs after the game but said he was fine and "hoped to play" tomorrow night. He is listed as day-to-day.
PPS Both Coach Prunty and Bayless singled out diminutive point guard Pooh Jeter (15 points on 5 of 10 shooting) for praise. However neither wanted to talk about anything positive.
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I didn’t see the game but I wonder why a team (Denver) would press like that. I understand wanting to win the game but at some point you have to look at how your players perform under “normal” game conditions so that you can evaluate them. Oh well… looks like there are some scrubs on the roster that have no shot of making the team this fall. Big surprise, thanks for helping us figure that out, Nuggets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I&feature=channel_page
by The Cactus Leaguer on Jul 17, 2009 10:23 PM PDT reply actions
George Karl has always been a fan of trapping and pressing, especially during his time in Seattle.
It, therefore, doesn’t shock me that the Denver Nuggets summer league team would play in that manner.
Stupid people have stupid ideas.
D-league select just lost their first game
They play more like a team, and with less strange player assignments based on weaknesses to work on, than the ‘owned’ rosters.
Ben
any chance we could get some 3rd party observations (i.e. yours) on whether Bayless is just insane with his claims of shutting down Lawson? I missed the game, and I get that we didn’t get a good matchup of Bayless’s offense against Lawson’s defense, but I’d be interested to know what exactly we happened defensively.
Unless Pooh was guarding Ty, in which case, who cares?
He blocked Lawson once and kept him from driving the lane.
But was unable to prevent him from passing into the low post. Repeatedly.
Don't you believe it
Most of the time Lawson was getting open jumpers, it was because Bayless was giving him too much room. At one point Mike Barrett characterized it as “daring him to shoot the three pointer”. Yeah, he made that one in Bayless’ face. Lawson also scored on drives to the right side. NBA caliber defenders are going to force him to his left, and have the height and timing to avoid the contact he creates and send that stuff back. Still, Lawson looked like a legitimate NBA prospect.
Bayless, not so much.
lmao
“Although Bayless otherwise did a solid job of containing his frustration, he appeared to be growing weary of the talent gap that exists between himself and some of his teammates”
now he knows how Roy feels.
I hope Bayless is thinking that.
"It's better to have a good player with the basketball in late game situations than to have plays." - R. Pitino
"I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em."- Jimmy V
Go Blazers!!
I noticed that
Bayless did stay in front of Lawson multiple times on drives to the basket. He wasn’t perfect, but he was better than average. A couple of times Lawson even seemed a little surprised by the fact that he hadn’t shook Bayless.
The Blazer forwards were setting terrible screens located too close to the sidelines and then cutting away without looking to see if the ball handler needed help. It wasn’t just brutal, it was gruesome. It made Denver’s job easy on the trap.
No shooters, no shots made, outcome no surprise.
From what I saw, other than Pendegraph, Cunningham and possibly Jeter there really isn’t much reason to invite any of these players to camp (Bayless doesn’t count of course.) Perhaps also the second string center whose name escapes me at the moment. After that, yuk.
So would you invite Bayless to camp?
Based on his performance in summer league so far, I think he’d have to be a long shot for an invite.
if he was somehow an unknown
For one thing, he’d be trying to score to make it on the team (eg play exactly like last year). Also, his sheer athleticism probably would merit an invite.
Jeter deserves a break
It would be nice to see Pooh Jeter get a break and stick somewhere for a season, but the spate of points in the draft has left him scratching for time on the Blazers. Given the investment in Bayless, he’s pretty unlikely to see the floor in Portland.
Yeah I think Jeter is interesting.
Seems to have a pretty good IQ. Like you said, I don’t know where his minutes come from unless there’s an injury or Bayless plays himself out of the rotation.
"It's better to have a good player with the basketball in late game situations than to have plays." - R. Pitino
"I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em."- Jimmy V
Go Blazers!!
good points
My question- if you want to see what Bayless can do as a playmaker then why in the Hell have you assembled such a crappy SL team? I guess there were a few guys they wanted to get that turned them down, but sheesh what a bunch of stiffs!
My take so far:
Bayless looks fine. His shot looks better. He has been trying to get the ball to people in the right situations and his defense seems a little more cohesive. And, he’s 19 years old BE people. Some of these comments in BE Land are just freak’n stuuupiiiddd!
Bobby Jones might be worth a second look as his defense is very solid and his offensive game looks improved. And he played with Roy at UW.
Obvious Cunningham and Pendergraph are in Fall camp and have looked solid for SL play.
The only other guy is Jeter, but his chances are slim since I feel Nate would rather have a more experienced back-up in case of injury.
Stuuupiiiddd comments?
Sorry, but Bayless will be 21 before the NBA season starts. This makes him 20 and 11 months right now. He hasn’t been 19 for quite some time.
The Princess of Blazersedge
man they looked rough
after all this, does anyone think that the master plan may be to accept that jerryd is a 2 and officially switch him with rudy making rudy the backup point? just a thought who knows bayless is still young
by HurricaneDayne on Jul 17, 2009 10:57 PM PDT reply actions
i donty even know about that has you seen his defense?
you know how antonio harvey duriing radio broadcats is always saying " somebody need to give player such and such a hug"? well i think jerryd listens to it too much hes always getting that close and fouling ,in fact he might be worse than greg one on one. anyone have comparison stats on that? jerryd’s per game fouls vs’ greg’s?
by HurricaneDayne on Jul 18, 2009 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Bayless is not an NBA point guard right now
Sometimes it takes young players a while to figure it out in the NBA. That may be the case for him.
That said, I don’t think they’re seeing what they had hoped for. It’s not clear they can wait for the veteran’s camp to make a move for a legitimate backup (or starting) point guard. Jerryd is not ready, and they’re going to need to have someone who can either spell Blake or take his job and move him to the backup spot for this year.
Nice post baduk.
I agree 100%. Jerryd’s sub par court vision and decision making coupled with playing on a roster full of stiffs = i’ve seen enough. Put him back at his natural position for the remaining 3 games. :D
Portland will have to spend a lot more time and money on his development at PG.
Portland's PG of the Future - Meet John Wall
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
“They were trying to take the ball out of my hands. It’s tough when there’s two guys on me. They were doubling me and what am I supposed to do? It’s just tough.”
I don’t know, you could…pass? Be decisive, do anything, but DON’t PICK UP YOUR DRIBBLE WITHOUT A PLAN. Twice he picked up his dribble on the sideline with no idea what to do. One time he stepped out of bounds, the second time he was forced to call a timeout. He’s reminding me of a poor man’s Jarret Jack.
It must get tiring for Jerryd to constantly blame everyone else around him… I have news for him, he does not look out of place talent wise in summer league right now and he sure isn’t looking like a leader out there.
by Pheesh on Jul 17, 2009 11:03 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree
He’s the pg and we’ve done nothing but lose. I know it’s just summer league, but honestly, the point guards job is to orchestrate wins and he hasn’t done that. Forget the talent gap; get a damn W.
http://following-thetrail.blogspot.com
by BigCelPhone on Jul 17, 2009 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Ditto
Plus they are SUMMER league defenders. These guys are usually far from NBA talent. If Bayless can’t figure out how to beat/dribble/pass around two summer league defenders, when is he going to be able to take over a playoff caliber team?
Well, maybe, but
One of your summer league calling cards is defensive play. Marginal offensive talents can at least make the effort on the other end.
I’m not sure how much Denver really learns by putting on lots of full-court pressure in summer ball, but it doesn’t stun me that they can do so effectively.
I noticed that Bayless picked up his dribble a lot last year too
I think that the problem is that Bayless often has his head down and is focusing on the ball when he dribbles rather than looking around him. Since his court vision isn’t very good while dribbling, he has to pick the ball up and then look for someone to pass to rather than being able to find good passing opportunities while dribbling. That is a pretty big weakness for a player who is expected to have the ball a lot, and it is a weakness that can be difficult to fix.
he not only picks up his dribble at the wrong times
he always gets caught at the baseline
by HurricaneDayne on Jul 17, 2009 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
"court vision isn’t very good while dribbling"
Exactly what you said. Not your most auspicious trait in a point guard prospect, and not one that necessarily improves with time.
If you look at the looooong list of ‘tween guard types who never quite gelled as points, that’s the problem with ‘em. Randy Foye, you know? Guy can take it inside, but his vision closes down; he’s not a terrible player in terms of basketball IQ, and he wants to involve the team, but his passes are basically made as he pulls up out of his dribble. Foye, too, wowed them in summer league as a rookie with his ability to get inside; he was the SL MVP that year.
Bayless has stuff to learn, and his fans can see this is a ‘learning opportunity.’
There comes a point in a trap where you don’t have a choice but to pick up yoru dribble. Bayless was looking to pass, the problem was that no one was getting open even though there were only 3 defenders on the remaining 4 Blazers. It’s his responsibility to find the open man, but if there’s no open man to find, what’s he supposed to do? You put any PG in the league in that game last night and they would have struggled, it was pretty much Bayless vs the Nuggets on offense. Defensively, there’s no question he had some breakdowns (It would be rare for a player to never make a mistake during the game), but on the whole I think his defense has improved from last year.
It doesn’t make much sense to me to pick at Bayless for SL losses. He’s doing what they want from him this summer, by running the offense instead of be one track minded with his eye on the basket. The problem is that apart from Cunningham he hasn’t had much help. The other Blazers aren’t moving well without the ball so aren’t getting open. Heck, there have been more than a few occasions where everyone just stands around and watches to see if Bayless can magically give them the ball in scoring position. What i’ve taken from last night’s game is that Bayless was by far the best Blazer on the court last night and he didn’t get much help from the rest of his team. How it gets turned around here as being Bayless’ fault for not getting his teamates involved more, i’ll never know. There’s not but so much one man can do on his own, at some point the rest of the team has to take some responsibility for putting themselves in position for him to find them.
true you can be forced to pick up your dribble,
But a good guard needs to see these things coming and draw the defenders toward him in order to get someone else the ball wide open.That full court press stuff is what you use out of desperation or when you know the opposing teams PG is a turnover waiting to happen which Bayless is.Trade him now before he shows all the other GMs exactly how far away from being a solid guard in this league he is.Right now his athletic ability is overrated and can be cashed in on.
by eclecticspider on Jul 18, 2009 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Bayless' body language tooks grumpy.
Grumpy with the refs. Grumpy with his teammates. Grumpy that he’s there at all. Just Grumpy.
great way to run a team, eh?
http://following-thetrail.blogspot.com
by BigCelPhone on Jul 17, 2009 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's my formula for Rex's success on this team.
Two handed dunks. Throw one down in the last game and let your team rally to you. People will talk about that “sick dunk” for the rest of the summer. During the regular season, don’t try to run the team. You can’t It’s Roy’s team. Don’t try to be a sharp shooter. You aren’t tall or skilled enough at this level. Don’t try to facilitate. You don’t have the floor vision or the decision making process yet. Drive the lane, or the baseline and throw down a two handed dunk. Climb the ladder and make a poster. Once every two weeks. The sheer sensationalism of it will win over the fans. The end.
by pxilpooshr on Jul 17, 2009 11:17 PM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
This should be green
Rec
"HA HA HA HA HA
I'm not laughing, I'm just listing the five ugliest Blazers ever."
- rockingharder
agreed
i dont like how the coaching staff likes to turn players into things they aren’t.
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Jul 18, 2009 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
I can't really tell
He always seems to have that “I’m better than this” look on his face. Bad call against him (like that BS charge call late in the game against Dupree), he’s not rattled, he’s better than that. Missed jumper, six turnovers for the third straight game? No worries, he’s better than that.
Hey, I don’t have a problem with confidence. Confident players are the ones who are usually most successful in the NBA. But at some point he’s going to have to demonstrates the skills to go with that confidence, and though he could drive and shoot effectively in college and last year’s summer league, he hasn’t been able to overcome his scouting report – teams can limit his effectiveness with a little help pressure because he’s not an able and willing passer.
On the plus side, he doesn’t step out of bounds.
The bright side.
These are guys who won’t be playing during the regular season, and if they do, it will be surrounded by good players, not a summer league squad. Who wins summer league has zero to do with the regular season.
On the dark side, unfortunately, this blazers summer squad is a little light on talent, including Bayless, who has no reason to be frustrated with much more than his own play. Lawson is a real PG, and will play meaningful minutes in the NBA this year. We do need another back up point BAD. It really sucks that we aren’t getting to look at Mills right now. We need to get a solid back up point from somewhere. I don’t care if it’s a vet, or a young guy, but it should be a guy who can play the position. Rudy will end up handling the ball a lot I think, unless we get someone more ready than Bayless. If at some point we decide Bayless is a shooting guard, how long do we keep him, and would we be able to get anything for him? The biggest disappointment of this summer league is who is not playing; Mills, Claver, Koponen, Freeland. Those are the guys I want to see.
Let's not annoint Lawson
He hadn’t shown much before this game. Bayless was far more impressive in last year’s summer league. Doesn’t mean much.
by 52therim on Jul 18, 2009 5:45 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Lawson prior to this game
had shot 1-15 in summer ball. He was far more active against the Portland summer roster than he had been against Washington (where his matchup was Tyrese Rice) and the Spurs (when George Hill and Jack McClinton marked him in the S.A. starting lineup).
Kids are learning, teams are trying different stuff. They’re scouting games, not real ones. Jonny Flynn improved by leaps and bounds for ’Sota across the three games so far, and they reacted by bringing him off the bench in their third game to look at Bobby Brown.
I really hope the Blazers realize the PG situation needs fixing
by jksnake99 on Jul 17, 2009 11:23 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, it's not a good feeling when...
you’d feel better having Sergio still on the team. Hopefully KP and co are looking at all the PGs at summer league, and looking for the best guy who will just miss making a squad due to being on a team that is loaded at the point.
I almost, just almost miss jarrett jack
ok maybe that is taking it too far but something needs to change
by HurricaneDayne on Jul 18, 2009 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
Jack's going to Toronto for $5 million.
Which is overpaying him, but the problem in Portland is almost more pecking order than talent, isn’t it?
And if Sergio was the PG in SL this year...
We would be losing by even more points since Sergio can’t shoot the rock and would be getting killed on the defensive end.
at least he can run an offense....
pretty important out of your pg…
The Bedger formally known as ????????
Good statement
There’s absolutely no way to back it up, but good statement nonetheless.
Actually, we could back it up. When Bayless played instead of Sergio in the real league, the team did a lot better… wait, scratch that, the team did awful when Bayless played instead of Sergio.
So your theory boils down to.
Sergio > Bayless as NBA backup, but in the summer league we’d get killed without Bayless. Check!
The Princess of Blazersedge
I would consider running
Rudy at backup PG and switching Bayless to the 2, assuming we don’t make a move before the season starts. It would be interesting if not conventional.
http://following-thetrail.blogspot.com
by BigCelPhone on Jul 17, 2009 11:24 PM PDT reply actions
thats what i said up there ^^^^
but it does bear repeating becuase it seems like its a solution staring them in the face yet the team refuses to open their eyes
by HurricaneDayne on Jul 17, 2009 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Nate said he was considering playing Rudy at PG during preseason
earlier this week, before the SL games even began. But enough of that diversionary discussion for now
One of these radio guys (not Wheels, he’d be too nice) needs to get Mike Dorn on the air and grill him re: why he couldn’t round up more talent for the summer league team. It’s impossible to make legitmate evaluations when the squad is so poorly constructed. If I were the Vulcans I’d be asking for all the money back that was spent on travel, food, lodging, salaries and television time for this “lost” week in Vegas. The Blazers would’ve been better off just not showing up at all if this is the best group of players they could muster
I’ve seen some sickly SL play over 20+ years, but with this group you first get mad, then you laugh, then you turn apathetic. And that’s not a good thing to put your fanbase through when the front office has just spent the last 6 months spinning their wheels re: upgrading the roster
Get busy KP. I agree with Rick Kamla. Lamar Odom is ripe for the picking and he would be a tremendous addition to the ballclub. No more messing around, make a move that will rock the L*kers back on their heels and give the Blazer fans something to “show” for this offseason. And whatever you do, don’t bring back this “losing” attitude back from Vegas, this organization is better than that!
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I'm with you
on the wasted week thought. Complete waste of time. The team is really poor and plays without heart. My point is, Bayless should be able to inject heart into the squad, no matter how trivial summer league is. Honestly, the way he has been carrying himself reminds me of Kobe. And as far as Lamar Odom: are you kidding me? He wants 5 years. There is no way we should even think about giving a player like him (30, past his prime, NOT A POINT FORWARD ANYMORE) a contract like that. In fact, no one should. Let him go to Miami.
http://following-thetrail.blogspot.com
by BigCelPhone on Jul 18, 2009 12:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I can listen to 5 minutes of Kamla
and get more/better analysis than reading 20 paragraphs of Decker or 2000 responses of Bedgers. I like Dave and Ben, but Rick knows the NBA, not just the Blazers, and Kamla’s not likely to miss the forest by looking at the pretty leaves on the trees
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Here's what Kamla said about Odom, yesterday
Dr. Buss is not happy with Lamar Odom … in my opinoin, the Portland Trail Blazers need to immediately swoop in and take advantage of the discord that’s going on right now, and try to steal LO away from one of their rivals on the west coast …LO can obviously play the 3, he can play the 4, he can play a point forward spot … he’s a better player in my opinion than Hedo Turk … if you went so gaga over Hedo why wouldn’t you go so gaga over Lamar Odom, who is younger, who is longer, a way better rebounder a way better defender …
’Tone interjects "and a champion … he played for the team that actually got it done when it counted the most … LO had a spectacular post season … "
Kamla continues "If you’re the Blazers, you give him 5 [years] … 47 million … that is a no-brainer, to me, for Lamar Odom … [and] the Portland Trail Blazers … we know LO, he is a nice guy, he is down to earth, he is a family man, he’s approaching 30 years old, he is a mature, complete basketball player. I absolutely think that the city of Portland would be getting a good one with Lamar, because I know how important character guys are to the community and to the organization and I fully vouch for Lamar Odom.
http://www.955thegame.com/Personalities/TheShow/tabid/159/Default.aspx
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Ric Bucher's tweet, from last night
Last LAL source said they’ve moved on from LO. LO source suspects same, hopes otherwise. Me? Can’t fathom LAL letting Ariza and LO go.
Don’t sleep on Lamar, KP
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Err...
Lamar would be a horrible fit in Portland. I wouldn’t want him around. He wouldn’t fit in here like he did in L.A.
expensive old lazy player used to the big city
sounds perfect.
by HurricaneDayne on Jul 18, 2009 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions
We agree at last
Nice points, I would say the same. :)
SL is usually pretty worthless, but this may even be counter-productive. I could care less if they win any SL games, but it was supposed to be an opportunity for Rex to get in some useful experience playing the point. He’d be better off in Ohio practicing the pick and roll with the big fella.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 18, 2009 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions
At least Jerryd has next week versus team USA
Well…at least I “hope” his calf is OK…wouldn’t it be just a perfect ending if he hurt himself making a meaningless alley-oop in a game where his team was down by 15+ points and then he had to miss the team USA workouts?
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Management loves Bayless
He is driven to succeed and has all the physical skills he needs to play the point guard position: size, quickness, balance, hops.
I think they believe he will ultimately be successful.
But I also think they thought he was closer to being ready than he is. He’s not close right now. Another year of not playing is not going to help him. What to do?
It makes one wish the D-League could be used to actually develop players.
They drafted a freshman point guard,
which is a mistake in all but a few situations like Derrick Rose, who was a stud, and mature enough to take his team to the NCAA finals. I was really surprised they did it after making the mistake of drafting HS PG Telfair. You can draft almost any other position out of HS, or nowadays “one and done” college, but a PG has to have maturity, and be a leader and thinker. A four year PG out of a big conference like the ACC, or Big East will generally be NBA ready, even if they don’t have the same physical gifts as a Bayless.
5 years, 5 rookie PGs
Telfair
Jack
Sergio
Green
Bayless
What’s the old saying “insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result”? Thank God for Steve Blake, because without “good old reliable Blakey” the Blazer’s PG position would be the weakest in all the NBA, bar none. Is it poor coaching, poor scouting, or both? Who cares…it’s obvious the front office needs a different approach and the only avenue they haven’t tried (since acquiring Blake) is to make a trade for a PG that was developed by a different organization who is already proven to be NBA caliber.
Let’s not kid ourselves, this is not your 2005 “rebuilding project” anymore. This team is a contender, and the rest of the players (especially Roy) don’t need to be babysitting young players and “hoping” they’ll develop but then having to put up with the inevitable mistakes that could cost them ballgames (and ultimately playoff seeding) It’s time to add veterans to the roster (heck, it was “time” for that last February) not run a daycare center from the bench
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
by two4larue on Jul 18, 2009 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
We agree at last - again
Nice points, I would say the same. :)
Oh, Oh is this going to become a problem? :) :)
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 18, 2009 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions
believe me, I don't need the encouragement
And “disagreement” makes for better chatter, every time
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
"believe me, I don't need the encouragement"
Ah, I’m not sure how I am supposed to take that.
But I refuse to compromise my beliefs just to disagree with you.
by BlazerFanSince1970 on Jul 18, 2009 12:53 AM PDT up reply actions
That's fine
I disagree with myself from time to time. I like to look at the Blazers from all angles, and sometimes the hardest thing to do is to figure out “what the ____ are the coach and GM thinking?” Websites like BE are helpful in this search for ultimate roundball truth
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
please let there be a 6th PG in year 6!
And he doesn’t have to be a rookie. And if you could find a young PG who has scored 40+ in a game or had 20+ assists in a game or had a triple double… That would be spectacular! I can’t imagine that kind of player would be available… but perhaps we should look around.
by 52therim on Jul 18, 2009 6:00 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Compare what we hope Jerryd will become to what Kirk Hinrich already is.
Jerryd is and always will be a better athlete than Kirk, but whether he will ever be better, or even as good, in any other facet of the game is unknown at best and unlikely at worst.
Does the hope that Jerryd may one day be a better player than Kirk, or at least almost as good for less money, justify not including him in a trade for Kirk, if that’s what Chicago wants?
What is it about Jerryd that makes him untradeable for a player like Kirk, who has proven he can play point guard at a high level, is one of the best defensive point guards in the league, is in his prime, has a reasonable contract, and is available if we want him?
I understand that Jerryd is young and has some terrific attributes, and it would be nice to have time to see how high his ceiling is, but we need help at point now, not just two or three years from now. A Blazer point guard rotation of Hinrich and Blake would be as good as any in the league this season. If part of the price for that is Jerryd Bayless, I truly do not understand why the Blazers have not made that happen.
His contract is not reasonable. That's the problem.
He’s a good player like you say, and I’d trade Bayless for him in a second, but his contract is too big for his abilities. If Chicago hadn’t paid him so much a couple years ago, he’d have no problem finding a team. We can get a good PG for a lot less money, he just won’t be as big a name. The key is it needs to be a guy that is mature, which usually means a 4 yr college player. I don’t even want to look back at last year’s draft and see who we passed up for freshman Bayless. It’s only a big problem because the draft was so weak this year. Also Mills getting hurt is kind of a disaster, because I think the team thought they had something with him, and now that they can’t assess him, we don’t know how much of a bind we are in with Bayless.
Seconded about the d-league
Bayless is a great example of why teams should take the D-league seriously. He needs to make a bunch of decisions, is what he needs. Get him floor time.
I mentioned the D-League for JB last year
and folks on this board went apey on me.
The kid needs playing time, playing time, playing time. He didn’t get it last year, and he’s not earning it so far either.
I do want him to succeed though. Not at the detriment of what should be a nice 09-10 season.
One team is going to set this precedent
When that team treats D-league time as a rite of passage, even for high picks, and derives a competitive advantage from so doing, everyone in the league will follow.
For right now the CBA is underfoot a bit, but teams are still underusing the thing, basically because their shared culture is set in its ways.
I miss Sergio already
Looks like Bayless better get some thick skin cause this site has little to talk about except for his inability to fill the back up PG job.
#2PG > #2PF
#2PF = Outlaw
He is a defensive liability and a rebounding liability at the PF position, but he mostly makes up for that with his offense (remember that Outlaw is much better offensively when he plays at the 4 than when he is at the 3). In terms of how ready they are to contribute right now, Outlaw > Bayless.
wrong
bayless is a great scorer. he averaged 30 in last years summer league. the only reason he aint averaging 35 this year is because he’s trying to be a distributor and floor leader. He wont have any problem scoring in the NBA even with the increase of talent level. Portland just needs to unleash him and stop relying on him to be a passer. if they do, he could very well be the 4th leading scorer on the blazers next year.
and why does everyone want bayless to be a pass first point anyway?
that’s brandons job. portland needs more scorers on their starting unit and that is exactly what bayless is. Tony parker is a score first score 2nd point gaurd, and last time i checked, he’s pretty dang good too. why can’t bayless be viewed in the same light? You people keep thinking that score first point gaurds cant succeed in the nba. you people are dead wrong.
Rick Kamla agrees with you
I was listening to the podcast with Harvey and Kamla, the mp3 is on the 95.5 website
“The Show 7-16-09”
http://www.955thegame.com/Personalities/TheShow/tabid/159/Default.aspx
I encourage everyone to listen to it. Here’s what Rick said about Bayless
“Turnovers aren’t a big deal out here [in summer league] Fouls aren’t a big deal out here … if you’re a combo guard who needs to develop his PG skills, Go out there and be a PG. Take risks. Make passes that may or may not slip through that traffic to the guy you’re trying to feed. Because if you don’t do it here … Nate McMillian does not want you taking those risks … on his watch … I think Jerryd Bayless is a helluva talent … I understand why the Blazers are so reluctant to trade him … he is a bulky guard who can get to the rim at will, and in today’s NBA that is one of the most important skills that a PG or combo guard can have … the ability off the dribble to get to the rim take contact and finish, get to the free throw line … if [he’s] cut off drop off a little pass here or there … that’s an important skill to have, and he has that skill”
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
Problem is, people know who he is now.
He’s not getting to the rim as well. He’s getting his shot blocked regularly, and he isn’t very good at finishing. He’s not a “great” scorer. I’m not around the guy every day, so I’m sure the Blazers see things he does that I don’t, but from what I have seen of Bayless in NBA games: he is very quick, and has basically one explosive shake and bake move. I think that does have value in the NBA, but only if you add some other things to it. Right now, Von Wafer is the far better player. He has a super quick shake and bake move to the basket, can finish 10 times better than Bayless, and can shoot the 3pt shot extremely well, and we released him. Bayless can play better defense, but he’s not amazing at that either, he is basically just aggressive, not skillful. If they can focus his abilities, he may be an effective player, but at the PG position, you kind of have it or you don’t, and he don’t. I think he would be best used the same way Houston used Wafer, which is an instant offense guy who only plays 10min a game or so, and maybe as a defensive stopper here and there. I think the idea that he is a super valuable piece, is a bit too much, and if that idea is getting in the way of us getting a real back up PG, then it is a problem. I’d be happy to have Wafer, JJack or Juan Dixon instead. Those guys can all score, shoot, and handle the ball. Jack and Dixon can even hook up their teammates. I’m not suggesting we get those guys back, just that for the PG position, we need a little more reliability than potential. J Bay is a SG, and the sooner we come to grips with that, the sooner we can make sure we aren’t vulnerable at that position.
From what I understand...
Von Wafer was released more because he didn’t have the attitude we wanted. He didn’t work hard in practice, and he complained about not getting in the game. Yeah, he played well for Houston. But, if he came over in a trade for a 2nd rounder, and then felt entitled to a spot in the rotation, he was horribly mistaken. And if he didn’t want to put forth the effort to get into the rotation, then that was his choosing.
Agreed.
Von Wafer was a head case from what I’ve heard, in this instance, I was just talking about abilities, and pointing out to the many Bayless fans, that we had a guy better than Bayless not long ago, and no one was calling for him to get playing time. I think it’s also a West Coast thing. Bayless played in the Pac-10, whereas Wafer played in the ACC, so I don’t think a lot of people over here knew how spectacular a player Wafer was in college, but they did see Bayless show a lot of promise. Having watched both in college myself, I would have picked Wafer higher in the draft had they come out at the same time. I think body type plays too much of a role in NBA drafting, and ability to play from day one not enough.
If Bayless were really a "great scorer"
He wouldn’t have had an eFG% of .384 last year. That’s pretty pathetic. Even Sergio has never had an eFG% that low.
The problem with Bayless isn’t just that he is a shoot-first PG, it is that he is a shoot-first PG who is really bad at shooting/ has terrible shot selection.
nah
2nd pf > 2nd pg
we have roy who takes 4-6 minutes at the 1 spot a game. blake with 30+. rudy and bayless can pick up the scraps.
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 18, 2009 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Outlaw was pretty solid at backup PF last year
He may not possess the skill set we want for our backup PF, but its hard to argue with the teams efficiency and his stats when he played. Outlaw has his faults but he is a contributor off the bench. Our needs: Starting PG>Backup PG>Backup PF. Blake can be the backup PG if he doesn’t go as part of any deal to get a starting quality PG.
by 52therim on Jul 18, 2009 6:12 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
outlaw did contribute
but when you hear fans, your star player, and your gm saying that the team needs a backup PF then i’d say it’s a pressing need.
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 18, 2009 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions
What happens when Blake gets an injury???
2nd pg spot is one of my biggest concerns. The most ideal way to remedy this is to get a starter and move Blake to backup. 2 birds with one stone! Bayless isn’t ready…
The Bedger formally known as ????????
If Bayless really isn't ready, it will be because of two issues:
1) He doesn’t shoot the 3-ball well enough
2) He can’t play defense
With regards to both of these issues, there is potential mitigation:
1) He shouldn’t need to shoot the 3-ball (much) because his contributions on offense are shooting the pull-up J (which he can do effectively), drawing fouls, shooting floaters in the paint, and taking it to the basket. Depending on the style of play and the ability of other players to knock in the 3, the Blazers will be beneficiaries of Bayless’s strengths. Right now, Blake’s primary contributions (in the extreme) are spot up 3’s. Bayless would offer a change of pace.
2) Bayless’s on the ball defense was more than adequate against Lawson in the half-court, but not so good covering Lawson without the ball in transition. I think that is easily fixable, primarily because Bayless made the necessary adjustment in game. Team defensive schemes will test Bayless, but he has the physical tools and the desire to be a good defensive player, so I wouldn’t expect that to be the deciding factor for his playing time.
Other than that, there are no reasonable arguments that he won’t be a contributor. His ball handling is fine, he isn’t supposed to take Roy’s playmaking responsibilities, and he can contribute offensively in a variety of ways.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 18, 2009 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
dont agree
bayless won’t be ready primarily because he does not make good decisions. he struggles to make proper decisions on offense and defense. i would hope that he will improve his decision making with experience. so i’ll give him a pass on that. offensively he hasn’t shown with much consistency that he can hit the pull up J or shoot floaters. at least i haven’t seen it since he has donned a blazer uniform.
also i don’t think his ball handling is all that great…he has gotten caught a few times in backcourt traps last year, and he still dribbles with his head down.
he doesn’t necessarily need to take roy’s playmaking responsibilities, but roy has asked for help in the playmaking department to take some of the pressure off of him. i dont think i want to go into the playoffs again next year asking roy to do 90% of everything for us without anyone else making steady contributions.
i love bayless’ potential…i guess i just like him for different reasons than you do.
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 19, 2009 1:21 AM PDT up reply actions
hire norsktroll
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 18, 2009 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I know less about coaching a basketball team than Prunty has forgotten. Just wanted to reflect the typical in-season reaction.
Maybe we can blame who signed off on that roster construction Prunty now has to work with. Whoever it was, he didn’t make it easy for Prunty and his main guys. Unlike some other teams, who seem to have invited almost exclusively players that they could imagine actually making their regular season roster in some capacity.
Mike Dorn was "the architect"
and his “building” has a poor foundation, a leaky celing and tumble-down walls
you get the torch, I’ve got my pitchfork, everybody assemble for the raid on the practice facility!
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I read somewhere
That agents didn’t want their players on our SL team because we have a deep rotation and not a ton of roster spots.
yeah i heard that on a broadcast.
It makes sense. If you aren’t a PG or PF I don’t know why Portland would be high on the list of opportunities.
"It's better to have a good player with the basketball in late game situations than to have plays." - R. Pitino
"I asked a ref if he could give me a technical foul for thinking bad things about him. He said, of course not. I said, well, I think you stink. And he gave me a technical. You can't trust em."- Jimmy V
Go Blazers!!
Mike Dorn...
…as in the guy who played Worf on Star Trek: The Next Generation?
You’d think a guy who spent the better part of twenty years as a Klingon would know how to go to battle…
Blazers win!
by The X-man on Jul 18, 2009 2:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The problem is that Dorn insists on everyone
going through the Klingon second rite of ascension to see whether they’re tough enough to play for the Blazers.
and here I was worried no one would get my joke lol
Blazers win!
by The X-man on Jul 18, 2009 2:59 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
i guess i'm the only person who still believes in bayless
i just love the kid. i don’t miss sergio or jack at all. i think bayless will be an absolute stud. Just give him some time. he’s asked to do alot in the summer league, and he’s still very young and raw. he was also being double teamed every time he touched the ball last night. it ain’t easy. you people are just too quick to condemn and critisize. STOP BEING SO NEGATIVE!
ben still believes.
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 18, 2009 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions
there is potential there, with Rex
but the problem is this isn’t 2005 anymore; Nate and the rest of the veterans can’t afford to wait around for Bayless to finally figure things out
When reached 39 years of following Portland basketball you have, be as passionate of the Trail Blazers you will not!
I think...
KP traded away Sergio, more or less to put Bayless in a trial by fire situation. Either he’s going to do well, and prove to be a valuable asset, or he’s not and he’ll be gone. I mean, this offseason isn’t going too hot for the people who want to be in the Finals this year. But, next year, if Bayless improves enough to show that he could help another team, imagine the pieces we’d have. Lots talent, some of whom we may be willing to move. Darius Miles’ contract finally off the books. I’m not an expert with the numbers, but wouldn’t that make us prime candidates for a big sign and trade?
We'll see
I think they were going to have him play the point in summer league and then decide whether they needed to sign a veteran to play behind Blake if a starter didn’t come along. As it stands, Bayless is not playing as well as his summer league backup, who is not an NBA player.
Nate has players who wants to win, and that precludes him playing Bayless at his current skill level.
you say it isn't 2005 anymore, which is true, but.....
it’s not like were gonna win this year or next. we’re still at least 2 years away. Until Oden and LMA can match the allstar like play of roy, we aint winning anything. so that’s at least 2 more years before we win a championship. and 2 more years of bayless developing.
Dave already said basically what I've been thinking about Bayless. He could average 50 a game and 10 assists and it wouldn't
mean anything. He isn’t even coming close to that so I’m not really thrilled with Bayless. He needs to start playing smarter.
David Thorpe's thoughts while watching the game
Bayless loves to pound the rock. But he’s effective with it.
People tell me that Bayless is selfish. Maybe so, but I like him.
I like Pendergraph’s motor.
That’s because he fills his motor with Pend’s oil. Ok, just shoot me.
by pxilpooshr on Jul 18, 2009 1:18 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Pend's oil = Penzoil?
If so, very punny
Blazers win!
by The X-man on Jul 18, 2009 2:13 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Bayless
My proposed strategy for how the Blazers should handle Bayless:
Set a deadline of the end of this coming regular season to figure out what Bayless’ best role should be and also decide whether that role is something that meshes with what the Blazers’ needs.
If after next season they still haven’t figured it out, then trade him.
At some point if you can’t answer a question you have got to erase the question.
Fair.
I definitely agree that he gets consistent minutes this year to show improvement. But after that, if the result is unsatisfactory, no guarantees about whether he stays.
that's exactly what they will do
and at that point he won’t have any trade value and it will be an opportunity lost. this is a pattern we’ve sen with pritchard multiple times. you need to trade potential while it’s still potential. bayless had more value before summer league but i’m sure he still has some.
it’s crazy to me that including bayless was a deal breaker for the blazers in the chicago trade but that’s what i’ve come to expect from pritchard.
Yes I agree there is potential.
I think Rex has an incredible amount of potetnial. He’s 20 yrs old. Last time I checked players were far from peaking at 20. Do I think he’ll ever be the prototypical pass first point? No. But as has been said before he doesn’t have to be. Simply for the fact that brandon roy would be in the same backcourt. Brandon does most of that as it is.
Don’t get me wrong he’s far from being ready to be the starter or really play big minutes at point. But I do think he can come in and play with roy, with roy facilitating the offense. And rex guarding the point on D. I think rex gives us a huge upgrade over blake in scoring and D. I still think he needs the experience and smarts that blake has. Obviously. I just remember blake being burned left and right by speedier guards.
Also I seem to remember many here praising rex as the future before SL. Mainly because of his work ethic and huge potetial. Now it seems everyones down on him because of a few SL games. You can’t expect him to totally change the way he’s played his whole life in a few months. He said himself that last year he thought if he averaged 30 a game he was good to go. It takes time! I also see everyone commenting on the big lack of talent on this SL roster. With Cunningham out of course teams are gonna focus solely on shutting rex down. Kinda like rex vs the nuggets instead of him being able to depend on some sort of support.
I think folks are jumping the gun here as far as thinking he is always gonna be what we see right now. It would be nice to bring in a vet starter or backup to sure up the position in the meantime. Would also be nice to see what patty mills could do. I think that kid really had a shot.
And please let’s stop with the missing sergio stuff.
I miss Sergio
He was a nice guy, and at least he didn’t have 3 consecutive games with 6 to’s trying to be “the man”.
I’d like to see Rex try and match Sergio’s numbers from when Blake went down. I like Rex, but I bet he couldn’t. Wrong skillset, for the moment anyways…
Blazers win!
by The X-man on Jul 18, 2009 2:12 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Did Sergio ever play in summer league?
Also when Blake went down, the numbers of both Sergio and Bayless went up and were good.
Yeah, but they played the easiest part of the schedule that year while Blake was out.
The only tough teams they played, were the Cavs, a loss, and the Mavs, a loss, and remember CP3 killing the Blazers, and then sustaining an injury mid game, allowing the Blazers to steal a win they probably didn’t deserve. The rest of the wins were over non-playoff teams, with the exception of a win over Utah, while Boozer and Kiralinko were injured, and it looked like Utah would not make the playoffs. They managed to lose to OKC, GSW and the Bobcats too. We got lucky that we played a lot of below .500 teams while Blake was down, or we might not have had 54 wins.
actually PoliSam said that his analysis showed the sans-Blake stretch to be of average difficulty, with us performing right at our season average.
life is better as an optimist
Look at the teams we played during that period.
@ GSW L 98-105
OKC W 106-92
NYK W 109-108
@ OKC L 93-102
@ DAL L 99-104
@ NOR W 97-89
UTH W 122-108
CHA W 88-74
@ LAC W 113-88
WAS W 100-87
CLE L 98-104
MIL W 102-85
CHA L 97-102
NJN W 105-99
Charllotte and OKC twice each, and we came away .500, Golden State a loss, the Knicks, which we won by one point (at home) from a prayer by Roy, the Nets, The Bucks, the Wizards, and the Clippers. The only reason it ends up average in any way, would be because we got wins against two normally good teams, that were missing star players CP3, and Boozer/Kiralenko. Other than that we lost to the good teams, and played a lot of scrubs, and still managed to lose to some of them. PoliSam’s analysis must not take enough factors in to account, because it is wrong.
BTW
The second game against the Bobcats that we won, was when Gerald Wallace was injured, after torching the Lakers the game before. When Wallace played against us the first time, he scored 31pts and we lost. Sorry to destroy PoliSam’s analysis (I don’t know who PoliSam is, so if he or it is some respected figure, I don’t mean to be disrespectful) but the stretch while Blake was out, was almost the perfect storm for Sergio and Bayless to get the best numbers of their careers. It was also the perfect timing for us to not blow our good record, so it was very lucky, and has been a part of the fans undervaluing Blake’s contribution to the team, and actually thinking Bayless could start.
And just to show you why you can’t just look at the stats of games to draw an average, I’ll tell this story: when Blake was back, we still didn’t beat the Cavs, so you might say: “we just weren’t as good as the Cavs with or without Blake” but with Blake we took them to overtime on their home floor, with both Aldridge and Batum not playing, because Lamarcus had a concussion, and I think Batum had the flu. We were all looking forward to Batum guarding Labron, and having Frye start instead of Aldridge was an even bigger blow. The two situations are not even close to equal. I won’t even go into the officiating at the end of regulation, where they basically gave the game to Labron. If Blake had Batum and Aldridge with him like Sergio and J-Bay did, I guarantee we would have been the second team to beat the Cavs on their home floor that year, and if we had Blake when they came to our place, we most likely would have gotten it done too. The loss to Dallas while Blake was out you can discount, because they did have our number this year period, but that is the only loss that I would say was likely in that stretch.
I agree....
Sergio didn’t have 3 consecutive games with 6 to’s. Nate usually yanked him long before that happened. That I think was why he was pretty much banished to the end of the bench there at the end of the year. He was terribley inconsistent. Sergio would usually show a flash of brilliance followed by a bone headed play. Usually leading to nate yanking him. Also sergio had 3 or 4 yrs in the league. Rex was a 19 yr old rookie last year. Now he’s in summer league trying to be “the man”. Well because that’s why he’s there. Is to try and show he can do it. Certainly he hasn’t thus far. I’m just saying its far to early to put rex out to pasture saying he can’t play the point.
by blazer_bob on Jul 18, 2009 2:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
bayless would destroy sergio!
sergio may not turn the ball over as much, but he’s also not attacking the rim and trying to make things happen like bayless is. that would be why.
Actually they matched up a lot in practice
Bayless did not, in fact, destroy Sergio. They had intense battles, and Bayless never won the backup point guard spot from him, despite his constant trying and the fact that most of the organization wanted him to.
by baduk on Jul 18, 2009 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Does Sergio's banishment
mean that Rebecca Haarlow is now available?
I would think so; those long distance romances never work out.
lol
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by Philthyanimal on Jul 18, 2009 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Bayless...
Honestly, I could care less about his potential. From what I understood, his summer league was supposed to be about showing he could be a point guard. He isn’t doing that, in my mind.
Yeah, the Blazers could use another slasher to complement Roy. I’d love to see a Slash-Kick-Slash offense. But, honestly, I think that may be all that Bayless offers. From what I’ve understood from interviews I’ve read and seen with him, he believes that his job as a point guard is to score. We don’t need someone who thinks their job is to score. We know he can attack the basket. Supposedly he can play defense. But, he has yet to prove to me that he can exist efficiently with other scorers.
If Dante Cunningham wasn’t so good on the boards, then I doubt his numbers would be as high as they are. Yeah, he’s good when he gets the ball. He can make some plays. But, Rex can’t get him the ball. I don’t know if the Blazers coaching staff feels that they can develop that, or if we’re holding on to him and praying he figures out that he can’t just run past people and win the game on his own, but I’m starting to get fed up with it.
All that being said, I still like him over Sergio. Sergio couldn’t hit a shot to save his life, but he also wouldn’t attack the basket as much as Rex. I’d much rather have a guy who can get to the hoop and collapse the defense before he misses his shot, then a guy who throws up bricks from outside, while guarded one on one. The first guy can be fixed. The second guy can’t. And our 2nd unit needs a slasher. Because Rudy and Travis did most of their scoring from outside last year, and at times the spacing was horrible, because noone was attacking the hoop. Sometimes our 2nd unit would be able to drop shot after shot, even if they were contested. But, the nights they weren’t making those, we never had a guy to get to the hoop. Maybe Rex will prove us all wrong, and be that guy. I’m skeptical, but ya never know.
"he believes that his job as a point guard is to score. We don’t need someone who thinks their job is to score."
what’s wrong with that? that is exactly what we need in the starting unit. the reason the starting unit struggled so much against houston was because roy and LMA were the only 2 who could score. Bayless would give them option number 3. we dont need bayless to be a passer and leader because that’s what roy is. Brandon roy is a 2 gaurd that plays like a one. So doesn’t it make sense to have a point gaurd that plays like a 2. bayless and roy compliment each other perfectly. Roy said so himself.
Exactly
All of these BE posters saying Bayless isn’t a true PG, all Bayless can do is get to the rim. Hell, that’s what this team needs! He has a lot to learn and will get better, but right now he can SCORE. The last time I looked that is a skill that you need to be good in the NBA.
The expectation that Bayless should be running a SL team of scubs to perfection is just silly. He is trying to recreate himself, going to school.
Did you all always have on a happy face when you were hitting the books, taking tests, and being asked tough questions by grumpy professors?
his scoring comes with too much potential for to's which lead to fast break points for the other team
What i don’t like is how vehemently Bayless proclaimed that HE was a point guard, and this would be his chance to show it. Granted he doesn’t have a very good supporting cast to aid him in stacking his assists, but from what I’ve seen a lot of his to’s aren’t his teammates fault. Couple that with the fact that the defenders he’s been up against are nowhere near an elite level, it gives me great pause when estimating the success of this up and coming team for next season. Not trying to say he can’t play, but so far he doesn’t seem to remember how HE plays best. And if this is what we have as a backup to Blake, uhh….insert
by Tyler Durrden on Jul 18, 2009 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Fastbreak points come from guys that can't shoot
Most of the fastbeak points I’ve seen are from SL dudes that can’t shoot and aren’t busting their asses back on D.
And, when a guard drives to the hole, the rest of the team is supposed to rotate so that there is always a defender at the top of the key. These summer league scrubs are not doing the fundamental things to prevent break-outs.
Plus the whole opposing team is focusing on Bayless when he has the ball. On top of that, Bayless has slowed down his game while in “team ordered” learning process. Put those two things together and you have more TOs
i think you missed the gyst of my statement. It's the fact that HE said he was a point guard, and HE could run the plays.
You said that he is in a “team ordered” learning process, but I think he is having an identity crisis that is leading to his indecision on the floor. By contrast Pooh Jeter has seemed much more comfortable deciding whether to pass or drive, and has had a much better handle on the ball. Maybe this is because nobody expects him to make it onto a roster, and therefore has less pressure. Jerryd is already on a roster, and has one year in the league to get his feet wet. If there is pressure on him it’s certainly less than what he would experience during the regular season. I don’t know if he is forcing it, which may be the case and putting too much pressure on himself, but he needs to figure out how to play to his strengths. Then if the team is trying to put him in a box they and he have an idea of where to begin. But if he is so willing to put himself so eagerly into a role you seem to infer the team is forcing him into then he will never get comfortable enough on the floor to become anything more than what we have seen.
by Tyler Durrden on Jul 18, 2009 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
"From what I understood, his summer league was supposed to be about showing he could be a point guard. He isn’t doing that, in my mind."
No, SL was to be part of his training and experience in his process of learning how to become an NBA point guard. Big difference.
There are very few players who come in and play NBA point at a high level in their first year or two, and there are many examples of great players who took 3 to 5 years to get it right. There is no guarantee that Bayless will be a good or great player, but dismissing him is crazy talk.
I don't know about his court vision
It seems that several times Jerred did not know where to go with the ball. He seemed to overpenetrate and then throw some poor pass to a player that wasn’t in position to be able to do anything with it. I don’t know if we will ever be an effective PG.
Who knew Cunningham would be the keeper in all this...
I’ve watched each game and there is no doubt he is an NBA player. Pendegraph has a ways to go and he will only make the roster because we drafted him and he’s tall. Bayless makes the roster because we drafted him, we have hope, and he is a hard worker. Otherwise both of them are not NBA ready.
2nd round draft picks
miss rosters regularly. pendergraph will probably make the roster because we have open spots but being drafted in the 2nd round definitely doesn’t guarantee much.
I can't believe how bad Batum looks in SL this year
oh wait that was last year…
Batum will never be a starter in the NBA
oh wait that was last year…
Batum should go play in the D league to perfect his game
oh wait that was last year…
Batum plays NBA defense.
Let’s face it, if he couldn’t defend he wouldn’t have played last year.
Bayless doesn’t have a comparable skill – when they traded for him they thought he would be a good shooter. So far, he hasn’t been.
All I know from a visceral perspective is last year's summer league got me excited for the season
This year’s has me dreading it
Times Change...
We are well past the point that our SL performance should excite us… It’s time for the players we HAVE to excite us. Good teams, by nature, don’t get the top rookies and guys looking to “stick” somewhere because… well because they are good.
I wasn’t necessarily thinking Bayless was going to come into SL 2 months after the end of the season and be a changed man but I hoped he’d look better than he has thus far. I also don’t understand why people are so high on his defense. Complain about Blake all you like but at this point Bayless is no better defender that Steve. I think his “athleticism” has some of you blinded to the fact that he is not a fundamentally sound defender.
Keep things in perspective though folks. This is the Summer League. In 2008 SL The Warriors and Bucks were tied for number 1 at 4-1. The Lakers were 2-4 and Cleveland was 0-5. They both had pretty good regular season teams (sarcasm). In 2007 the Knicks went undefeated at 5-0 while the Lakers were 2-3 and the Hornets…who were pretty strong in the next regular season were 0-5. To me it’s actually a good thing that our SL team is weak… Sign of progress.
Yeah I agree, I should have been more clear. I'm nervous about how our P.G. situation is going to hold up
if we don’t at least get a third option somewhere. I don’t care if it’s a starter or backup or third string. Just somebody to play in case someone gets hurt. People talk about roy and rudy playing the point but it seems like, some people have suggested rotations that have guys on the floor for way too long. Also it would be nice to have some guys be position specific, especially if they are new to the system.
by Tyler Durrden on Jul 18, 2009 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm uncomfortable with our current PG situation as well...
But am very comfortable with Blake as our starter or our back up… and I am confident that we’ll either get a starter upgrade via trade or a vet back up before the season starts. It wouldn’t make sense to start the season 2 deep at PG… even if you had confidence in Bayless.
I know this Roy / Rudy backcourt thing has been brought up a hundred times… and it may work for limited minutes against specific match ups… but I don’t think it’s realistic in a regular rotation. Either of those guys would have a heck of a time matching up defensively with a quick PG and Rudy isn’t exactly a post up threat on the other end.
I can't help but think that Bayless would be a better PG if he had a better nickname
Therefore, I blame the fans.
by tominhawaii on Jul 18, 2009 9:37 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Bayless has a ways to go
My only problem is that last year, we all expected Rex to come in and blow Sergio out of the water for the backup spot. Well, he never did. And now we traded away Sergio and handed the keys to the Ferrari to the inexperienced driver (Rex), hoping that the potential PG skills just miraculously appear.
Not saying anythng bad about Bayless, but if we’re gonna make him our backup point guard, I think he should have had to earn the spot, not had it handed to him.
Blazers win!
by The X-man on Jul 18, 2009 9:52 AM PDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
there's got to be something going on down the pipe
no way we enter the season like this
by Tyler Durrden on Jul 18, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
It's a good thing I can watch the games for myself
Rex was fine, last night. His one on one defense against Lawson was, at times, excellent, and from what I recall, he had no defensive breakdowns. Lawson had to give up the ball when going against Rex, or throw up long J’s. The one thing Rex didn’t do on defense (at least early) was run hard on transition defense, although I believe Rex capped Lawson on one fast break (the block happened, and I think it was Lawson).
None of the turnovers were of the obnoxious variety; he shot the pull up J with nice results; he got to the basket; drew fouls; deferred to his teammates repeatedly; showed excellent transition skills dribbling, passing, and scoring, and generally had a good game.
Those that want to pick his game apart are going to do so no matter what positives he brings to game.
If I formed my opinion based on what gets written here, I’d think Bayless was a scrub. I’d be wrong. Results-based analysis is the shortest distance to lack of understanding. It applies in baseball, it applies in basketball.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 18, 2009 9:54 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Well, I would like you to be right...
and I have not been watching the games, so, yes, I have been getting a pretty discouraging perspective on the Jerryd’s point guard potential, at least in the immediate (this season) sense. It seems that there is a pretty formidable consensus what the team needs now, and what Jerryd can deliver are not converging. Not just posters, but scout interviews and coach comments are not encouraging. I have no arguement with the fans who admire Jerryd’s heart and skills. This appears to be a daunting challenge to a guy who has the determination to do “whatever it takes” to succeed, and is used to succeeding. Unfortunately, adding the mindset and floor vision of a playmaking, ball distributing true point guard is a major transition which is not comming quickly. This is a great learning opportunity for him to not be on the bench, but out there and seeing what he can, and can not do. That way he can move from frustration with coaches, which he cannot control, to frustration with himself, which he has power over. It’s tough when we hear things like, “well he doesn’t have the body for a 2, so he has to make it as a 1”. That’s a lot of pressure. So far he has remained focused. You gotta “bend” without “breaking”. Maybe our team is not the best place for him to develop. Of course it is great for a point guard to have the scoring skills Jerryd has, but you gotta have the playmaking for the team.
I am reminded of Jason Kidd joking, while winning the gold medal with team USA that he spoiled his record by scoring a bucket in a game. That speaks volumes about his true point emphasis on setting up his team. And the thing is, we do have a team of scorers, which is awesome. We do need an enabler. In my opinion, that has been the key priority for next year. Now, without Sergio, and Patty down, there is no mystery what we need. I am trusting that the wheels are turning in the background to get us a starting quality point – though I am not ready to gut the team to do it. We shall see….
Kidd has never won an NBA championship. Neither has Nash.
Fans, particularly those that bash Bayless, arbitrarily define point guard attributes, decide that what they observe doesn’t fit in their point guard stereotype, and proceed to proclaim all kinds of nonsense.
First – Bayless can run the fast break. He can score off the dribble, score off the pass, or pass to a score. He demonstrated each of those skills in yesterday’s game. 2nd – there aren’t many point guards that are going to take the ball out of Roy’s hands in the half court game. Bayless fits the Blazers right now because he can shoot the pull up J, get in the lane, draw fouls, bring the ball up, etc. The only serious knock against him is that he isn’t real good at shooting the spot up 3 off the pass – a rather critical point guard skill with Roy on the court. However, Webster mitigates some of that need.
All that said, Bayless is still the youngest guy on the SL team (or second youngest), and the second youngest guy on the big league roster. He makes some mistakes, primarily in forcing the action or simple stuff like stepping on the sideline when trying to dribble away from a trap. Those are benign issues that he will grow out of. Many here argue that because he has some development remaining before he is a top 10 point guard worthy of All-Star mention, that he is somehow not useful now or in the immediate future. The prevailing argument is that he is either not a point guard at all, or won’t be for another 3-4 years.
Hogwash. His game fits with the Blazer starters now, with one notable weakness. If you think he needs Nash/Kidd skills now to contribute, you misunderstand the needs of the Blazers and you overrate skills that have never led to a championship. Stockton didn’t win, Nash hasn’t won, Kidd hasn’t won. On this Blazer team, Roy is the championship driver, followed closely by LMA. We all have high hopes for Oden. Everyone else needs to fit their game to those three.
Thinking that somehow a backup point guard or backup any other position is going to have any significant effect on Portland’s playoff potential is missing the forest for the trees.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 18, 2009 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
well said
The ignorance of both what Bayless can do and what the team needs is staggering. Rookies, especially very young rookies, don’t play much unless they are top 3 material or the team really sucks. The expectation for Bayless to come in and take over the PG position is rather stupid.
And what is a TRUE PG? There are only 9 dudes in the whole NBA that average over 7 assists per game. One of them is Baron Davis. Is he a true point guard? He averages more assists than Wade, Parker, Billips, Duhon, and Harris – to name a few. Isn’t Davis a streaky, shoot-first guard?
What about Tony Parker? He averages 17.5 shots per game. Is he a true point guard?
Davis hasn't won anything either.
and Parker is light years beyond Bayless’s best possible hopes. Parker is a team player on a team of team players. Bayless is a solo guy, and doesn’t fit with our starters, because Roy is our star, and he drives to the hoop, so he needs a back court mate who can hit shots when he kicks out, or the defense could collapse on him. We also need to keep turn overs to a minimum, because that is what loses games. A good PG keeps the team working together, and running smoothly, whether he is a shoot-first, pass-first, or something in between. Bayless has not exhibited the ability to do this. When he starts to get significant playing time, his drives to the rim will lose a lot of effectiveness as well, because the defenses will know he is going to do it, and close it off, block him, or draw a charge. That is already happening in SL. I want the Blazers to succeed, so I hope he makes a leap as a player, but realistically you either have it as a PG or not. That’s why Conley, Brooks, or Rose can come in and run a team in their first year, while Bayless looks out of control. The one guy that gives me some hope, is Rondo, who was a lousy PG, but very quick. He wasn’t as bad as Bayless his first year, but he wasn’t very good, and he has improved a lot. In any event, we can’t count on Bayless to be the back-up, so we do need another PG bad. I want to give Bayless the 2nd unit job, but I also want to know we have another guy behind him ready to take over if he doesn’t figure out how to play team ball.
I feel a little silly responding to the litany of errors in this comment
but what the heck.
1) Bayless meshes perfectly with the Blazer starters because he can actually be productive in transition and break down the defense when Brandon is trapped. Currently, most players play “off” Roy or LMA by spotting up for a 3. Bayless doesn’t need to do that, given that Blake fits that role. What Sergio couldn’t do was shoot or drive the lane with any kind of efficiency. However, that critical skill of being able to break down the defense and either score/draw foul or dish for an open corner 3 is something Bayless can do just fine, and will be even better at when Roy is drawing traps.
2) The idea that somehow the PG is a magical leader that makes his on court teammates do their jobs (keeps them working together?) is at best, an urban myth. Run the plays, take what the defense gives you, and live happily ever after. When Bayless is the best player on the floor, he can be defensed. When he is playing off Roy and LMA or Oden, he can be a serious offensive threat without needing to be the “playmaker”. KP made this assertion during his interview, tonight. I tend to agree with him.
3) Conley sucked as a 1st year player. Brooks sucked as a 1st year player. Rose was the 1st player in the draft, and was actually a below average PG (until the post season, when he was effectively no longer a rookie).
4) If Bayless can defend better than Blake, he will take some serious minutes from the presumptive starter. When he is on the court, however, the style of play will be very different. It will be faster, more aggressive, more productive, but less efficient.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 19, 2009 12:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks for correcting my littany of errors.
But, I can’t agree with much of what you said. You say Bayless doesn’t need to do what Blake does, because Blake already does that, but then you say he meshes perfectly with our starters. I don’t think so for the reasons I stated. Roy works better with guys who can shoot. I haven’t seen Bayless break down a lot of defenses. He’s got a quick step, and that appears to be the end of it. He also has not shown anything on the defensive end, other than a propensity to pick up dumb fouls. I think he has a ton of potential, I want the team to give him a chance, but I also want the team to be ready if he doesn’t work out, which looks very likely right now.
You say Brooks and Conley “sucked” their first years, if so, then what adjective should we use for Bayless’s first year? “Ultra Sucked” “Mega Sucked” or “Suuuuuucked”? Because he wasn’t even close to as good as them. Also Rose was below average??? Uh… He won Rookie of the Year!!! He and Bayless are not on the same planet. Rose was NBA ready, Bayless is not. I hope he gets there soon though, because I am a Blazer fan.
Lastly, the PG position is the floor leader, not just another player. The PG calls the plays, and has to know his teammates strengths and weaknesses. The coach works through the PG, so what you say may be true of a pick-up game, or even summer league, but when the season starts, this is professional NBA basketball. One on one heroics without an understanding of the team, don’t go very far. That is the stuff of lottery teams, not contenders. Even Kobe Bryant had to learn to make his team better to win without Shaq. Kobe is a guy who can actually score 81pts in a game, but couldn’t take his team to the promise land, until he stopped trying to outscore opponents by himself, and became a team player. If a SG with almost limitless skill like Kobe realizes he has to be a team player to succeed, a PG of much less skill had sure as hell better be a team player if he wants to go anywhere in the NBA.
At this point we pretty much have to give Bayless a chance, because he is losing trade value fast.
I could see your reaction coming, and knew I'd have some 'xplaining to do...
but, I guess I could have summarized the errors more succinctly:
1) The idea that Bayless doesn’t fit with the starters can be refuted with simple observation of the Blazer offensive system and the role Bayless performs. PG for the Blazers is a role-player. He has to be able to defend PGs, not turn the ball over, and make some contribution on offense. Bayless’ contributions are transition offense (which is not a Blake strength) and getting into the lane in the half court. To be efficient when going into the lane, he has to be able to take what the defense gives him (shoot runner, go all the way for a layup/dunk, pull up, dish to a big or kick out). Bayless has been working on those exact skills this summer, and, contrary to most Bayless-bashers, he has been looking very effective doing it.
How does Bayless’ style help Roy? Currently, Roy performs that dribble penetration role almost exclusively for the Blazers – and takes a lot of punishment doing it. Last year, Blake’s shot selection was an absurd 96% outside shots. To his credit, he can hit that shot, but mostly he hits that shot playing off of Roy and LMA. Pritchard, last night, summed up the role of PG for the Blazers – they are role players that have to play off Roy/LMA/Oden, and at crunch time, Roy gets the ball. Bayless and his ability to break down defenses (you completely dismiss Bayless’ primary strength?) will allow Roy to sit behind the 3-point lane and allow Bayless to take some of the punishment….
2) The idea that Bayless hasn’t shown anything on the defensive end is a red herring….He used his hands too much last season, struggled to work through screens/decide to go under or over, etc. Those are mental issues that come with being a 19-yr old rookie. Bayless’ on ball defense this summer has been borderline outstanding. Any player with quickness and ball handling in this league will be able to pull up and shoot over the top. Bayless, however, can stop penetration. Playing effective team defense will come sooner, rather than later, because he works hard at his deficiencies and has the drive to improve…
3) You made unarguable error in claiming that Conley and Brooks were effective in their first year. You are trying to deflect correction using a straw man attack. You will have to do better. You were wrong. Rose doesn’t help your case any better. He shouldn’t have been the ROY, he wasn’t all that good until the end of the season, and he was allowed to make a ton of mistakes. Bayless sucked most of the time, last season, but in a fraction of the minutes played. Give Bayless more time, and he could have been below average like Rose, too.
4) PG for the Blazers is a role player. The coach designs the plays, the coach calls the plays, the players execute the plays. Pritchard called Blazer PG’s role players. Regardless of your opinion of what a point guard is “supposed to do”, for the Blazers, getting them to execute plays isn’t one of them. He has a role in each play, and that is it. The only dynamic component is in transition offense, where Bayless is better than Blake.
by blacknoiseNW on Jul 19, 2009 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
While I say Bayless is deficient in a number of areas...
you are rationalizing away those deficiencies, and over-selling his strengths, which are not yet proven. We are mostly arguing potential here, which we won’t know the answer to for a while, and role/maturity to play that role, which right now does not look good for Bayless. But, like you I think we should give him a shot at more playing time, but think it would be a bit silly to have that be as a starter at this point. Let’s see what he can do with the second unit, and go from there. Since I disagree that he would work well with the first unit, I don’t see him taking on that role any time soon. Even Nate has said that they need to find a place for Bayless to do what he does. When a statement like that is made, it is a sure bet, that the guy doesn’t fit the other players and team concept very well. I’m not saying they can’t find a place for him, but if he doesn’t learn to play PG, which is a specific role in team basketball, with certain responsibilities, he will be moved to shooting guard, where he will probably play along side Rudy, who will do the ball handling, or sit on the bench behind Rudy and Roy. To think you can just throw a guy out there and let him drive to the hoop over and over, doesn’t work at this level. It’s a good thing to have, but at this level, you have to have the b-ball IQ too.
Brooks and Conley both had better first years than Bayless. In fact Conley won the starting job after his first year, but lost it for a while in his second year, which might be the sucky year you are thinking of, but he picked up his play and was the starter again later in the year. Brooks also had a decent first year in limited minutes behind Alston. Obviously he impressed Rick enough for them to trade Alston this year. I expected that from Brooks, whereas I don’t currently expect Bayless to become the starter this year. If they move Blake, it will be to get a starter, not to give the job to Bayless. Brooks, was a four year college player who can shoot the lights out. Because he is such a great shooter, and quick, he doesn’t need to be the best set up man around, but he is mature enough to hold down the fort. Conley on the other hand was also a freshman, but he was a PG, not a combo guard in college, and led his conference in assists. So yes, in limited minutes those guys were effective in their first years, Conley was even a starter.
And your argument about Rose is preposterous. Let’ see, should we give our overall #1 pick some playing time? He had plenty of solid games in the first half of the season, averaging about what his season totals were 16.8pts, 6.4assists, 2.49 turn overs, and 6.3 rpg. Those are better than average numbers, and averaging over 6 rebounds has him looking pretty good. Rondo for instance averaged 11.9pts, 8.2assists, 2.61 turn overs, and 5.2 rebounds, and I think we can agree Rondo is on a better team that might get you 2 more assists. Excuse me if I don’t start putting Bayless in the conversation with these guys just yet, or go around saying they are just average. If we are comparing them to CP3, Parker and Nash, then maybe they are average, but let’s be realistic, and wait until Bayless actually performs, before we start making claims that he is as good or better than guys who have performed in something other than summer league last year, and showed that they understand the game at PG.
Again, I want Bayless to succeed, but I am just looking for the team to have plan B ready sooner than later, because I believe this team could make it to the finals this year with a little luck, and we need the back up point guard position to be solid. That’s why I am weary of a project guy playing a big role, when we are almost ready to go to the next level. It’s one thing for Oden to be a project guy, and another for the guy with the ball in his hands all the time to be. If you don’t agree the PG who has the ball most of the time, has to be a heads up player, and has more responsibility than the other guys, then we just won’t agree.
"At least there's another game tomorrow"
LOL – you say that like it’s a GOOD thing.
Duct tape makes you smart.
ups and downs
One thing about blazer fans, and I’m not immune to this, and the people in charge of the team may suffer from this to some degree as well.
When things go well for a player we overvalue him and when things dont’ go well for a player we undervalue him.
For example everyone now thinks Outlaw is not worth anything. I noticed some posts from partway through last season and people were praising Outlaw’s performance and feeling that he was a major asset to the team, and that if he were to be traded we should get something good in return.
The truth no doubt is somewhere in between.
To some degree I think this point also is relevant to Sergio and Bayless.
I may overvalue Jerryd's character and strong work ethic.
I’d like to hope i wouldn’t do that to him. But I think I’m pretty spot on when it comes to his court vision and decision making – He’s pretty underwhelming.
Will he improve in training camp? Will he look better playing with better talent? Yes of course! But I’m a firm believer that the team’s top two players running the point should make the other guys on the court look better, not the other way around.
Portland's PG of the Future - Meet John Wall
Treat people well because Karma can hit you at any second.
I expect to see Ramon Sessions at our training camp
There’s just no way Blazers management goes into the regular season with our only options at the 1 being Blake and Bayless. We keep Outlaw afterall to be our 4 on the second unit, where he is most productive, and pray like mad that Webs foot holds up. Cunningham will make the squad and Batum will show serious offensive improvement. Bayless will continue to pout and blame others.
Wait. We're not supposed to say "fart" but we can say "pissed"?
Prunty was seriously pissed.
I’m confused.
I know less than half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
Me too.
I mean I was banned from posting once for asking someone if they actually watched the nba.
by blazer_bob on Jul 18, 2009 12:52 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
"Pissed" has been around for a long time and it's used everywhere
I heard it on the Dan Patrick show and I see it on ESPN and Yahoo. I don’t think “fart” can get you in trouble but I have been asked to cut back on “fart” and “poop” talk. That’s kind of like telling Dave to not talk about the Blazers or Ben to not talk about Bayless, still I kind of try to cut back.
Taking away the “What The %#$” acronym caught me off guard though. I was like WTHuh?
I don't want to hijack this thread...
And I’m certain my answer will be inadequate anyway, but I’ll try to answer this.
First of all understand that modding is an inexact science. Even with six of us we don’t see everything and we see everything differently, we aren’t bots. One of us might let something go that another of us will take action on. We are human.
I don’t know that anyone has ever been banned for using the word “fart”. I personally fart around quite a bit. I also spend a lot of time pissed off. However, I try to keep my euphemisms to a minimum lest they distract from whatever it is I’m trying to say. I also don’t use these words to try to attack anyone else. I might say last night’s game pissed me off, but I wouldn’t say, “Dude, you are seriously gonna piss me off with these stupid trade ideas.” I wouldn’t say, “Your idea is nothing but a fart in the wind.” Either thing might get your post deleted.
Asking someone if they “even watch the NBA” will get your post deleted and can lead to banning. Using any of the “seven dirty words” or an acronym of one of them will get deleted.
Yes, Tom, certain acronyms went by in the past. The problem is that people get carried away with them so now they aren’t allowed.
"The sun is warm, the grass is green." Kesuki Miyagi
I love that Bayless' A:TO ratio is .5
and we are still headed into the season with him as our back up. One more reason I still think Kirk is bound for the Rose City.
OLP is the best thing Canada has given the world outside of maple syrup
thats scary
Senior Asian ambassador of Blazers Edge
by Philthyanimal on Jul 19, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions
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